In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu, CEO of Cleary, sits down with Jennifer Albert, Chief People Officer at Extensiv, to explore what it really takes to lead through sustained change. From reorgs and acquisitions to AI adoption, Jennifer explains why trust and transparency are the difference between momentum and breakdown.

Jennifer shares how her background in psychology and business shaped her approach to HR leadership during periods of intense disruption. The conversation focuses on how HR leaders can move beyond reactive change management by creating clarity, consistency, and confidence when uncertainty is high.

They also discuss AI adoption through a people-first lens. Jennifer advocates for curiosity over fear, low-risk experimentation, and clear guardrails to reduce shadow AI, while using technology to amplify HR’s impact rather than replace it.

The episode closes with a practical look at micro-promotions and career tracks, and how visible, incremental progress helps rebuild engagement, restore confidence after a reorg, and support internal mobility.

Topics Discussed:

1. Jennifer’s path into HR and how a psychology and business background shaped her leadership style
2. Why trust is an execution strategy, not a soft value
3. Leading through reorgs, M&A, and rebrands with transparency and clarity
4. When and how HR should influence major business decisions
5. Preventing cultural breakdowns during acquisitions
6. Why uncertainty, not change itself, creates resistance
7. AI adoption as a change management challenge, not just a tech rollout
8. Low-risk ways to build AI fluency across teams
9. Creating AI governance to reduce risk and shadow usage
10. Micro-promotions and career tracks as post-reorg retention tools
11. How visible progress supports engagement and internal mobility
12. Doing more with lean HR teams by focusing on priorities that matter most

If you are an HR leader navigating reorgs, acquisitions, or AI adoption and want to build trust without slowing the business down, this episode offers grounded, experience-based insight into how transparency and people-first decision-making future-proof the HR function.

Additional Resources:

1. Cleary’s AI-powered HR Chatbot
2. Future Proof HR Community
3. Connect with Jennifer Albert on LinkedIn

I don't think AI is going to replace HR.

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You cannot have Human Resources

without the human component to it.

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resources without the

human component to it.

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What AI will do and I think can

do for those of us who really

5

embrace it is amplify our

impact within our organizations.

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Because it's helping us accelerate

things that often take a lot of time.

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Thomas Kunjappu: They keep

telling us that it's all over.

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For HR, the age of AI is upon

us, and that means HR should

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be prepared to be decimated.

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We reject that message.

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The future of HR won't be handed to us.

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Instead, it'll be defined by those

ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.

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Future Proof HR invites these builders to

share what they're trying, how it's going,

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what they've learned, and what's next.

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We are committed to arming HR

with the AI insights to not

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just survive, but to thrive.

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Thomas: Hello and welcome to the future

proof HR podcast, where we explore how

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forward-thinking HR leaders are preparing

for disruption and redefining what it

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means to lead people in a changing world.

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I'm your host, Thomas

Kunjapu, CEO of Cleary.

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Today's guest is Jennifer Albert,

Chief People Officer at Extensiv.

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Over the last 13 plus years,

Jennifer has helped organizations

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scale through rapid growth,

acquisitions, and industry downturns.

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Her expertise spans culture and

engagement, talent management, leadership

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development, compensation, and org design.

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And at Extensiv specifically, she's

led the company through a significant

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reorg and is now doubling down on

development through career tracks

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and concept of micro-promotions and

AI-enabled learning for managers.

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So excited to dig into that and

a lot more with you, Jennifer.

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Welcome to the podcast.

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Jennifer: Thank you.

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It's great to be here, Thomas.

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Thomas: Tell me a little bit

about your career arc, if we

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can just get started there.

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How did you become a Chief People Officer?

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Jennifer: Oh, gosh, quite

by accident, probably.

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So I started my early years and went

to college for psychology and thought

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I was going to be a licensed clinical

social worker or a psychologist.

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And while in my bachelor's degree,

I was working in the business

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field and got introduced to the

world of HR and then thought, huh,

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I think I really like business.

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And I think I can take this psychology

degree and maybe marry the two together.

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So then I decided that was

what I was going to do.

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And I went for my MBA, stayed working

in business and decided that HR and

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people was where I wanted to go.

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And the rest was kind of history

after I got my foot in the door there.

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Thomas: Oh, so just to clarify, you

got into the people side post MBA, or

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you were already doing that beforehand?

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Jennifer: I was already in it

during my MBA, but I was not

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like fully into the position yet.

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It was more doing a double role, a little

bit of HR, but a little bit of business

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operations while I was getting my MBA.

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Thomas: Got it.

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There's a lot of change that

you've managed in this time.

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Now let's talk about the biggest thing

that is impacting people in this point

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in late 2025, which is about AI, right?

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And there's a lot of anxiety,

honestly, out there across

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workforces, across industries.

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How do you think about that?

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Or do you sense the anxiety yourself

in like, across your peers, the

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various stakeholder groups that you're

working with, maybe even in yourself?

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Jennifer: Yeah, I don't know so much

within myself or my org as it being a

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fear as much as curiosity and how do

we use AI and how does AI replace what

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people do or replaces what they can't do.

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And to me, I think that's the biggest

thing I've seen with every tech

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development that's ever happened.

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There's always this, quote

unquote, fear of the unknown.

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And I think as we adapt and we get more

familiar with things, that of the unknown.

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And I think as we adapt and we get more

familiar with things, that fear that

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some people probably have will turn more

into curiosity of how do I harness this

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and how is it helping me be better and

more efficient and do the things that

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really matter and impact my business.

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Thomas: So curiosity is a

great place to start from.

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Any early lessons then from that

period of curiosity or from that

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perspective of point of view?

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Jennifer: Yeah, I think in

terms of lessons, it's really

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around how do you get started?

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And I think that's what probably scares

people the most about AI is just not

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knowing where you want to begin with it.

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And so when I think about

like, how do you get started?

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If you're looking at it from

a business perspective, that

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probably seems more scary.

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So start in your personal life.

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Get One of your chat agents

and have it meal prep for you.

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Have it plan a trip you've been wanting

to take, maybe do some quick research.

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Like that's a really low stakes way.

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Just start getting yourself comfortable

with just using the tools that exist.

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And then from there, I think if you're

wanting to put it into your business,

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which I should also say you should be,

if you don't start using AI, you're going

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to get behind, do that if you're not.

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But from there, pick a low risk way

within your organization, figure out

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a need that your team has, or your

organization has, or a workflow, just

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one thing and play around with it.

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Challenge your team to

play around with it.

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Pick an experiment, have everyone go off

and utilize a chat agent for the same

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problem, and then come back together

as a team and look at the differences.

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What chat agent were you using?

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What prompts were you giving it?

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What was the output?

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Pick one of those and then go back as

a team and continue training that AI

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agent to get the outcome that you're

looking for that also fits the tone

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and the culture of your organization.

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And I think you can do that in a

lot of really low stakes ways to

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start dipping your toes into AI.

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Thomas: So we're going to

talk much more about this.

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Thank you for some of these

great examples about AI, right?

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But I would love to talk a little bit

about an interrelated topic, right?

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But specifically around the

relationship between like HR

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and the C-suite more broadly.

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I know AI is coming up in board and

leadership conversations, but that's now.

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And I think a few years ago, a lot

of the conversation at least for

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you, was about doing a major reorg.

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Could you share a little bit about

what that process looked like and any

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lessons learned about how to show up as

an HR leader in these times of crisis?

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Jennifer: Yeah, so we had a lot of change.

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So the reorg was one of those things.

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We also did three acquisitions.

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We did a company-wide rebrand.

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That's a lot of change.

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It is a lot of change across

the entire organization.

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And I think it's a few ways in

terms of like how HR shows up,

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because we're obviously at the

forefront of these conversations.

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We're deeply involved, whether it's a

reorg or you're acquiring a company.

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And our purpose there is to really help

lead that process and bring stability,

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bring clarity, bring that people first

lens to all the decisions that are being

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made, because you're operating at a really

challenging environment for everybody,

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especially if you're talking about

something like a reorg, we're talking

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about people, and that impacts everybody,

we are all and we're not immune to that.

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And for HR, you've got to bring clear

goals and understand what those clear

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goals are, but then you've got to bring

that people lens and have the clarity

131

of what those end goals are to make

sure you're asking the right questions.

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hard conversations while also being

empathetic and doing things that

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align with our company culture and

our values and the things that we

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believe in and our goals as a company.

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Thomas: So I would love to

dig in a bit more about this.

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Let's, and really it's, yeah, like you

said, it's really just, we're talking

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about times of massive change, right?

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And change management.

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How early in the process do you

think HR can make an influence?

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Whether we're talking about reorgs,

M&A, brand, when should you be getting

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engaged and how should you be influencing?

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Jennifer: You should be getting

engaged from the very beginning.

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So outside of a CE knowing and your board

knowing, right behind that should be

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HR, your CFO, depending on what it is.

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But you've got to be involved from

the beginning, or I think you're going

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to miss out on some really important

people components to whatever the

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changes that you're about to go through.

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It doesn't matter if it's an acquisition.

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It doesn't matter if it's

a reorg or a rebrand.

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If you don't bring HR in at the beginning,

you're going to be behind and probably

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have to do a little bit of rework there.

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Thomas: Let's talk about

M&A, for example, right?

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When do you think and how do you think

in an early stage in the process?

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Really, if you're fully engaged at

that level, what kind of influence

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and outcomes can you drive?

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And you also talk about rework.

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So maybe part of it's actually about

just making the right decision, even.

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Going through with the M&A or not, or

knowing full well what you're buying.

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Jennifer: Yeah, totally.

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So I think if we're talking specifically

about M&A, of course, the company

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products and all of those things,

it's either got to be a compliment

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or you're taking market share and the

business component has to make sense.

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And that's where your

CEO, CFO come into play.

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And then I think when HR comes into

play, when you're talking about M&As

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is really starting to understand

some of the cultural components to

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both organizations and what type of

hiccups could you potentially have

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along the way of integrating teams?

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There's obviously the whole benefits and

payrolls and systems and those things

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all matter, but they're all fixable.

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Like you can integrate those.

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Maybe you're running systems at different

times, but those are table stakes things.

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You're going to just have to

go through that regardless.

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But when it comes to the cultural

side, you really have to look at what

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information you have about a potential

company that you're acquiring and

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get a sense of that, get a sense

of the team, what matters to them.

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A lot of times you're going to have

to do that from their top layer of

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leadership without actually meeting

those team members, which can be hard.

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But then I think you start having

conversations of how can you

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successfully integrate people together.

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And what I have seen just watching

businesses do this out in the world

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is sometimes the acquirers just,

okay, you're absorbed into our

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company and here's how we do things.

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And I don't think that's

the right approach.

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I don't think you can put a

blanket across every organization.

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And I think finding ways that you can

integrate new team members, that you

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can also maybe bring some of their

culture into your organization, the

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good pieces that matter to them.

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And that I think helps everyone

come together and prevent

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having an us and them scenario.

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Like one of the things we did was we

would give our newly acquired companies,

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we'd give them new hire buddies.

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And so they'd have someone within the

organization that they could just go

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talk to and ask questions, understand

norms, learn the lay of the land.

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And I think those things, they

just matter because you're

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developing human connection.

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Thomas: Yeah.

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I think I heard you say like the

cost overruns associated with the

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things that HR is typically empowered

to look at, which is benefits,

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compensation structure, and systems.

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There could be some, but

there's a ceiling there, right?

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That's not so high.

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But when cultures clash or

specific organizations within the

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new acquired organization that

is not actually meshing well.

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It starts to put the whole

deal thesis at risk from a cost

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overrun and downside perspective.

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So you have a shot to make

a real influence up there.

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I want to push this thought

a little bit though.

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So do you think that there's real

influence capacity for the function?

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And we're talking about

even like the future, right?

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As we think about future-proofing HR,

for CPOs, CHROs to be at their basically

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green lighting, red lighting deals.

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Do you think that should

be part of the norm?

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Do you believe that will be

as we go into the future?

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Jennifer: Yeah, think it

already is and it has to be.

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For the most part, I personally

haven't experienced red flags

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where we're like, we can't do this.

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These teams are not going to work well.

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But I think in certain areas where

that could potentially exist, if

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organizations aren't asking that

question, they're taking a big risk.

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If you're bringing two companies

together that have extremely different

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cultures, you've got to think about

how you're going to run those.

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And maybe it's a parent company and

they're going to continue running the

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businesses parallel as two separate

things and that's going to work.

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But if you're looking at, Hey, we're

going to actually merge these together.

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Might want to do a little bit more digging

on that type of an getting yourself into.

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Thomas: So we went deep into M&A as

like an example of change management

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that you're doing as an HR leader.

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Now, we also talk about reorgs

and touched on a brand reset.

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There's significant change

management there as well.

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With the advent of AI, how much

of a change management exercise

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is it in relation to these other

ones that we just went through?

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What are some similarities?

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Is there something unique or different

from a change management perspective?

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Jennifer: Yeah, I think from a

change management perspective, you

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can apply some similar concepts

to anything that involves change.

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Because usually the thing about change

that freaks people out is uncertainty.

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And the more clarity, transparency,

setting the example of how we're

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doing something, so using AI as an

example, letting people see that you're

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using it and you're talking about it.

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When you get the trust and

transparency, everything else is

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gonna follow along with change.

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But it's people get in trouble

when they don't do those things.

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It's when they spark a change on someone

or a company in their teams and they're

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not communicating and conversations

are happening behind closed doors

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and nothing gets communicated out.

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So when you're lacking

transparency, you're lacking trust.

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And if you're lacking trust, you're

going to have a really hard time with

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the change management side of things.

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Thomas: So how do you build trust?

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And this is if you were to Google dealing

with HR Reddit and just take a look

251

through what the average person thinks

about in their experiences, right?

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not, There's room for improvement,

at least in the perceptions

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for the function overall.

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Yeah.

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How do you go about building trust?

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And it's not even just for you as

an individual, as a leader of the

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function, but also for everyone that's

representing the function internally

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to all your stakeholders, right?

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Any thoughts on building trust?

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Jennifer: Yeah.

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And I'd even go so far as to say

outside of HR and HR stakeholders,

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people managers in general, right?

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For the tail is out of time

is management and leadership.

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And it's been this separate

leadership has said to do this.

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And so I think this trust

component goes beyond just HR.

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Certainly HR is involved in it.

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So you think back to your point, the

268

HR looked very different and we

certainly got a stigma around us then.

269

But I think in terms of building,

maintaining trust, it goes back

270

to the transparency component.

271

When you have transparency, you

build the speed of trust you

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build connection with people.

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And so one of the things just using

our reorg as the example that we did,

274

we needed to make sure that we had

trust and connection within our teams.

275

And we really leaned into transparency.

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So sharing short-term goals, sharing our

metrics, sharing long-term goals, if there

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was new on those things, good or bad.

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We shared it.

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We did fireside chats, town halls.

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We have leaders that have office hours.

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We did people leader meetings.

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And the entire purpose of all of this

was to create these smaller intentional

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spaces where leaders within our

organization could be meeting with these

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small groups and really be in a place of

vulnerability to be asked hard questions

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and have to answer hard questions.

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And the whole reasoning behind

that is for communication.

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When people can communicate and can

ask hard questions and get answers,

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whether they like an answer or

not, if they have the clarity and

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understand why and what's happening,

that creates meaningful conversations.

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And that creates an environment where

people have the ability to have trust with

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each other, because they're seeing you as

a person, they're able to have these tough

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conversations, you're being vulnerable

as a leader, and those things matter.

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People can tell when you're being

vulnerable versus giving them a

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very blanketed statement and answer.

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Thomas: So how do you enable

that within the HR team itself?

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So I think part of what you're talking

about is almost like the HR leader

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working with the executive team to

create fireside chats and create all

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these moments for transparency and

forced vulnerability, let's call it.

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But then we want that to

translate to managers.

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And by the way, you're right.

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What I said, if you Google, I don't know,

my manager experience, Reddit, I'm sure

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that's not going to be full of positive

things, generally speaking either.

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But how do you scale that out a

little bit to create that trust?

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You're not going to have fireside

chats for every manager, but

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there's some versions of that.

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And how do either people, business

partners partners or folks in HRGs, HR

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operations, like how do they got to fit

into this picture where you're trying

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to build the capacity or the capability

of trust within the organization?

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Jennifer: I think a lot of it, you got to

spend some one-on-one time with people.

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First, you within your HR team

have to have that trust, right?

311

You've got to have your

open conversations.

312

Your team has to be able

to ask you hard questions.

313

You've got to be able to be transparent

with them because the truth in the matter

314

is employees are going to go to your HR

business partners, not necessarily you.

315

They're going to go maybe to your talent

acquisition person, not necessarily you.

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So you have to have that

relationship with your team.

317

And then from there, your team's

role, HR's role as a whole is to

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support everyone in the organization.

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Those are our customers, the

employees of the organization, the

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other managers in the organization.

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Those are our customers.

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And so supporting them with whatever

they're bringing to the table in a

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way that is grounded, is authentic,

coaching them through transitions

324

if we're talking about change.

325

And one of the most important things

is making sure they understand

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the message as well so that you're

providing a consistent message as

327

an HR team and as a leadership team.

328

You have to have that

within the organization.

329

That messaging has to be the same.

330

It's got to be empathetic.

331

It's got to be clear.

332

And your team has to understand that

if they're going to go out and help

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managers have similar conversations.

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Thomas: So I'd love to talk about

something that really intrigued

335

me when we're talking about in our

prep call, the concept of micro

336

promotions, something that you've

experimented with, got going on.

337

So tell me a little bit more about the

genesis of this idea, how you've been

338

thinking about it, and how you've been

implementing it within the organization.

339

Jennifer: Yeah.

340

After a major reorganization, I think it's

safe to say people are going to wonder,

341

do I have a future at this company?

342

What does it look like for me?

343

And that is what my team who they

are just amazing because they also

344

had to navigate through this change

themselves and process everything.

345

And while doing so, went really

hard on what we call our career

346

tracks and micro promotions.

347

And though the idea behind those is

to give people something concrete and

348

tangible that they can work towards

and measure themselves against.

349

So the micro promotions,

they're quick, meaningful wins.

350

So moments of visible progress that

they're making to keep them energized,

351

keep them confident they're in the right

place and moving in the right direction.

352

It's a step between those

bigger promotions and bigger

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role changes that they can get.

354

And I want to be fair,

we haven't finished them.

355

We are a small team like most HR teams.

356

And so we've had to take a very

deliberate approach and work quarter

357

by quarter with different departments.

358

But that's what we're doing is

each quarter we pick a department

359

and we work with those people

managers within the department.

360

So not just the department heads,

we're working with the managers

361

who are leading the individual

contributors within the company.

362

And we are tackling a

department at a time.

363

Thomas: So tell me tangibly how this is

different than career ladder and promotion

364

processes that, you know, that to some

level, every mature organization has that.

365

So could you give us a little

bit of the nuances there?

366

Jennifer: Yeah.

367

So they are fairly similar.

368

The way I like to think of the micro

promotions and the career tracks

369

tied to those is I'll use a software

engineer as an example, right?

370

You typically, you're looking at

a job hosting, you've got a junior

371

software engineer as an example, right?

372

You typically, you're looking at a job

hosting, you've got a junior software

373

engineer, senior software engineer.

374

It takes quite some time to typically

make the jump from a junior to a mid-level

375

and from a mid-level to a senior.

376

So what the micro-promotions have

done for us internally is taken, say,

377

the software engineer and broken it

down into an SE1, an SE2, an SE3.

378

So in between going from that mid-level

to that senior, you've got very

379

clear criteria within your review

cycles and you can set development

380

plans to them and all that good stuff

like every other organization does.

381

But you've got these little steps along

the way so that team members aren't going,

382

okay, I just made software engineer,

it's four years or whatever it is until

383

I'm going to have enough time under my

belt and experience to become a senior.

384

It's about giving them stepping

stones along the way and something

385

that they can work towards.

386

So those short-term goals

to hit that long-term goal.

387

Thomas: You seem to mention the trigger

for this kind of project to be at least

388

partially driven by the, to try to help

focus in the energy around change, right?

389

After a reorg reduce the

change, create more certainty.

390

But I wonder if another source is just

the changing demographics and expectations

391

from the employees where there's just

more, maybe younger generations just

392

want more reinforcement around on a

higher cadence around what they're doing.

393

And I don't know, just like up and

looking around either across the org

394

for opportunities or even just like

in general, like much more often.

395

Is that, am I crazy or is that

part of the equation here as well?

396

Jennifer: Well, I think it's safe

to say that wasn't the intention

397

that we set it out with, but it's

certainly a factor that's at play.

398

You look at the workforce today and it's

certainly different than 10 years ago

399

when I got started or when my parents

were in the workforce and people stayed

400

for 20 years or retired from places.

401

The generation that has entered the

workforce, I'll say just since COVID and

402

even maybe a little bit before, they've

had a lot of instant gratification.

403

They've grown up with social media.

404

They've grown up with smartphones

and the ability to have something

405

delivered to your house same day.

406

And I do think that all, whether

consciously or subconsciously plays

407

a role in whether it's the validation

that we need or just this quicker

408

gratification that as humans, like

that's not generation, that's not

409

tied to a specific generation, but as

humans, with the development of all

410

this technology, we've just come to

be used to and a lot of people want.

411

So I do think while it wasn't our

intention, I do think that certainly has

412

come into play is a good reason to have

the things like the micro promotions and

413

the career tracks and give people some of

those stepping stones because it's just

414

the nature of the world we're living in

of those stepping stones because it's just

415

the nature of the world we're living in.

416

This has been a fantastic

conversation so far.

417

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

418

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

419

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

420

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

421

can all thrive in the age of ai.

422

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

423

community.

424

Now back to the show.

425

Thomas: Yeah, I'm just

brainstorming out loud.

426

And I also wonder if these tighter

feedback loops effectively around

427

your career trajectory and like how

far you're going, I wonder if that

428

actually also enables a greater amount

of internal mobility, potentially.

429

You're realizing faster that,

wait, there's other opportunities

430

within the organization that I

might want to gravitate towards

431

as I'm hearing about things.

432

Yeah.

433

I wonder if there's like a

killer combo there, right?

434

Where people have like much faster

feedback loops and also an understanding

435

of what could come next, but then can

also have combined that with some internal

436

mobility programs where you can maintain

retention of great talent in different

437

angles because the clarity as well as

availability if you put in that piece.

438

Jennifer: Yeah.

439

Yeah.

440

definitely think there's

something there to it.

441

We are working on this right now,

but one of the things for my team

442

quarterly is a shadowing program.

443

So it's designed not necessarily to

create like this mobility of, I want

444

to jump over here, but it could.

445

So it's basically the idea is that

someone will go, they'll fill out

446

our form that triggers, hey, we've

got someone who's wanting to shadow.

447

And they are selecting the

role that they're wanting to

448

shadow within the organization.

449

So we can partner with the managers

and say, hey, we've got this person.

450

They're wanting to shadow

someone in customer success.

451

Who would be a great person

that we can pair them up with?

452

Here's what they're looking to learn.

453

And the main purpose behind that is really

about developing the connections within

454

the organization, making sure our people

feel connected to different departments.

455

You not have a friend over in customer

success you can go talk to if you

456

need something or not the enemy.

457

Yeah.

458

Yeah.

459

It's to develop these

inter-department connections

460

because we all depend on each other.

461

It doesn't matter what your

role is within a company.

462

You are dependent on somebody.

463

And when you have just that personal

connection and relationship, I think

464

you're a little bit more accountable

because you're like, oh yeah, Jen

465

and I spent that day together.

466

Great person.

467

I want to help.

468

And I want to get back with her on this.

469

I want to go help on

that customer problem.

470

So it's really designed to help

with engagement and bringing

471

people together and connection,

which is what we're really about.

472

But on the flip side of that, it

does also expose people to other

473

positions within the organization.

474

And I do think will spark some interest.

475

Our support team, a great example,

is one of the places that we

476

will promote people to different

roles within the organization.

477

And they'll have the ability to go,

I want to go sit with implementation,

478

or I want to go sit with customer

success and just learn and connect.

479

And maybe it's because they want

to go sit with implementation or

480

I want to go sit with customer

success and just learn and connect.

481

And maybe it's because they want to

learn the product better or something

482

specific, but it could also just

be because they're interested in

483

potentially going in that path.

484

And now it develops a connection there.

485

Thomas: Yeah, it's yet another

reason to have something like this.

486

Now, the flip side is

often is time, right?

487

Just like creating time.

488

There's budget pressure from across the

board and delivery metrics, generally

489

speaking for almost like every org.

490

And I'm curious from an HR or people team

perspective, do you feel like you and

491

your peers, most people listening were

being asked to do more with less today?

492

Jennifer: Yeah, I do think that is

probably a fair statement, partially

493

because technology has advanced so much.

494

And I think that's where you have to

figure out where can technology help

495

you and where can you get efficient

with things that are just time sucks.

496

And maybe they're just more administrative

so that you have the ability to focus

497

on the things that really matter.

498

And I think that's why it's also really

important that your team have very clear

499

priorities that they understand what those

are and that you're talking about those.

500

Because I think that is sometimes where

people slip or we get this feeling of,

501

oh my gosh, I've got so much on my plate.

502

I'm overwhelmed.

503

And it's because we've held things maybe

to a crunch time and for HR and people

504

leaders, and this is where HR can help

coach in these areas, but it's really

505

about making sure your team's goals are

really clear that they have a purpose

506

that's tied to your company goals and

that you're talking about those things.

507

Because if you're not talking about

clear, that they have a purpose that's

508

tied to your company goals, and that

you're talking about those things.

509

Because if you're not talking about

them, that's when things start to slip.

510

And I think that's where this feeling

sometimes, not all the times, comes

511

from, I've got too much to do with

too little time, is really, are

512

we prioritizing what matters most?

513

And are we being efficient

where we can be efficient?

514

And I also think for HR leaders,,

sometimes it's, you got to delegate you.

515

You've hired a team hopefully, or

you've got a couple of people on your

516

team and coach them up in able men, let

them try new things and where it makes

517

sense, delegate and don't take on this.

518

I have to do everything, or I have

to micromanage everything and be

519

over everything that's happening.

520

You've built your team and you've

got to trust that they also are

521

making the right decisions and they

know the goals and you've got to

522

set them loose to grow a little bit.

523

And I also think that

helps in that area too.

524

Thomas Kunjappu: So enablement of the

team and empowerment of the team, and they

525

can probably enable themselves, I think

might be even like what you're arguing,

526

but that's one piece of the equation.

527

And another one that I often hear,

I'd love your thoughts on this,

528

is just that it's the more part.

529

So the things that you need to do

historically, the administrative work,

530

benefits, comp, payroll, like just

making sure you're just compliant, that

531

doesn't go away and it has to happen.

532

And on top of that, with COVID,

remote work policies coming back,

533

all the whipsaw talked about it

with M&A and restructures, rebrands.

534

And then on top of that, we're probably

adding some level of scope with the

535

introduction of AI into the organization.

536

So I think the challenge that's hard

for folks to balance sometimes is

537

like things don't go off the plate.

538

It's just like things seem to keep

adding up in some kind of way.

539

So do you think broadly speaking,

540

versus 2019, like for the function?

541

And if so, how do we manage that?

542

Even with a team, of course,

and the right empowerment.

543

Jennifer: Like you said, the

compliance, the benefits and all

544

that stuff, it doesn't go away.

545

I think that's where if you don't

have systems, get some systems that

546

that can help with that, that can

help with reporting and take what

547

is the time suck of being compliant.

548

Not completely off your plate, but it's

going to help get you a long way there.

549

Hey, AI, great example of it

can help in that arena as well.

550

And outside of that, I think some

of it is having conversations with

551

the C-suite, with your leaders?

552

What are the things that matter

most to your organization for

553

your team to be working on?

554

And if something isn't aligning with

that, it's time to have a conversation

555

of what comes off the plate.

556

Because your point, you can't just add on

indefinitely without something coming off.

557

And that's where I think, have

we voiced, Hey, here's what's

558

on the priority list right now.

559

If we're going to add X onto this priority

list, what do we want to deprioritize?

560

And that doesn't mean you don't

ever do it, but there are only so

561

many hours in a day and you have

to be clear on your priorities.

562

And if you have too much, that's where

you have to go have the conversation.

563

If you're in my position with your

C-suite on what is the most important

564

thing for this organization, for the

people within it that we get done.

565

Thomas: Can you give me

a little bit of insight?

566

That is critical on what's landed with

the leadership team when you're talking

567

about investments or rebalancing of

priorities so that you can give your team

568

the space to work on the right things?

569

I think that's something where it's

not the seat at the table conversation,

570

but it's okay, now we got the seat

at the table and we want to use our

571

voice in the right direction and get

the right amount of investment for the

572

program that we're trying to run and

execute on behalf of the organization.

573

What kind of things have

landed and what's tough?

574

Jennifer: Yeah, I think first

and foremost, like you said,

575

you've got the seat at the table.

576

I think it's really important

because we always talk about

577

HR having a seat at the table.

578

And then it's, are you using

your seat at the table?

579

You're invited to the table for a reason.

580

Are you speaking when you're at the table.

581

And then it's, are you using

your seat at the table?

582

You're invited to the table for a reason.

583

Are you speaking when you're at the table?

584

And I think that is the

really important part.

585

So what plans I think is a few things.

586

You again, have to have transparency

and trust within your leadership team.

587

And everyone's got to understand

what the company goals are,

588

what the priorities are.

589

And there has to be alignment there.

590

I'm not saying agreement because not

everyone's going to agree on what the

591

goal is or what the priority is, but you

have to have alignment so that everyone

592

knows what we are working towards.

593

So that's important because

everything else, if you don't have

594

that, it's not going to matter.

595

Then I think as HR leaders, you've

got to have the business fluency.

596

And I don't just mean,

oh, how do we make money?

597

Yeah, that's a component of it.

598

But who is your product servicing?

599

How is it sold?

600

What is important to your customers?

601

Do you understand the

culture really within?

602

Within the organization

and how teams are feeling?

603

Do you know what's happening with your

counterparts, different departments?

604

How close are you to

the tech organization?

605

Are you having conversations

with the product team?

606

You have to understand those

things and ask questions

607

around those different areas.

608

And when you do, I think it's a lot

easier when you speak up and say

609

something or have a question or push

back to be taken more seriously because

610

you have invested in those departments.

611

You've invested in understanding your

organization and have business fluency.

612

And so your seat at the table, it

becomes your responsibility to speak up.

613

And if you're not, then you're not doing

what you should be doing as a leader

614

in the organization, because you were

invited to the table for a reason.

615

And you then have to use that seat.

616

Thomas: Would you say right now we're

at a moment where people have the

617

invitation is there to the table and

then it's just not being leveraged in

618

the right way with the speaking up versus

you also hear about like organizations

619

where there's a CHRO in place because

the team kind of need someone there.

620

They've never really experienced

what good looks like.

621

And you're just looking for

someone to hire a bunch of folks

622

or just do the administrative work.

623

And I'm just going into more detail

of just saying when, what not

624

being really, not really having

a seat at the table could look.

625

Jennifer: Yeah.

626

And that's fair.

627

I think there are a lot of people.

628

I see it sometimes with like founder

led companies who maybe they come in

629

and they get some investment into it.

630

And now they're being

directed to your point.

631

You got to go hire your HR heads.

632

They do it not knowing, okay, what is

this HR person really going to do for me?

633

There's a couple of things.

634

I would say first, the mistake that can be

made with that is they go and hire someone

635

in HR who's maybe not very seasoned.

636

That can be an issue because then you

have the person that's just going to come

637

in and to no fault of their own, they're

going to do what they're reporting into

638

the CEO, what the CEO is telling them

to do, because that's what the job is.

639

So I think first and foremost, it's

making sure you're hiring the right

640

level of HR person that can come in

and show you what good looks like.

641

And I do think hopefully CEOs, I

think they're smart enough to know

642

what good doesn't look like if

they get that and it's in the seat.

643

But there's a component of when you're

at the C-suite, executive level,

644

even director and above, I would say,

where if you're working with leaders

645

who maybe haven't partnered with HR

before, that's where you take them

646

on the journey of what you can do.

647

So instead of maybe taking orders, if you

will, of what HR used to be perceived as

648

several years ago, compliance, hiring,

payroll, like that sort of thing, you've

649

got to build a trust with the person.

650

You've got to understand what

their needs are and develop that

651

personal relationship, which is,

Hey, what we're really good at.

652

We're people.

653

So that's the easy part, but then you have

to show them what you can help them with

654

and show them, Hey, if we do this within

your team, look at the engagement driver

655

that's having, look at their productivity

that's increasing, or maybe they don't

656

know how to have tough conversations.

657

And so that is a coaching

session that you're giving them.

658

But I think as leaders in the HR

space, we have to show them what

659

good looks like and maybe what

they're missing out on if they're not

660

utilizing us to the full capability.

661

And so there's a component of we have

to speak up and show them what good

662

looks like if they've never had good, or

maybe they've just never had HR before.

663

Thomas: Okay.

664

So then similar to a board asking

the founder to hire an HR person

665

for the first time where they're

just saying, I've got to do this.

666

Let's say a hypothetical here,

the board's just saying, Hey,

667

we need to invest in AI.

668

We need to go at this and make it a thing.

669

I think there's some version of that's

happening in many organizations.

670

Maybe there's some more thought through

in terms of a particular strategy.

671

But how do you think about this

where in some ways it's like a tool

672

and so all your nails everywhere,

like it's a hammer, so there it is.

673

So we got to go for all the nails.

674

But in your experience, what has

been like that AI kind of strategy,

675

both at the company level and

also like for your organization?

676

Jennifer: Yeah, I think you're right on

a lot of boards mandating this AI thing,

677

because it's all anyone is hearing about.

678

You turn on the news, you hear AI.

679

Thomas: Right.

680

Jennifer: Anyone in tech, you hear AI.

681

I think it's a fair statement that in

the world, a lot of companies are being

682

asked or told, go build something,

get AI within your organizations.

683

And the way that we approached this was

as a leadership team coming together and

684

breaking down into kind of three buckets,

what AI can do across an organization.

685

And that's not unique to us,

but you've got, you're just

686

administrative tasks, right?

687

Drafting comms, helping with the

emails, things of that nature,

688

like very operational, not

really crazy proprietary stuff.

689

Then you've got AI that

can help build product.

690

And then there's the other

component of AI that can write

691

code and things of that nature.

692

And what we had to do and what I think

every company has to do is you've

693

got to figure out what you are okay

with and what you're going to allow

694

as you're dipping your toes into this

space of AI and what is not okay.

695

And we developed an AI policy around it.

696

We had tools that were approved and

tools that were not approved to be used

697

within the organization and training

those people on them and making sure

698

they know where to go to find that

and who to reach out to if they have

699

a new tool that they want to try out.

700

But you've got to know what

parameters you're operating within.

701

And if companies are not doing that.

702

The risk is that you've got people

within your company that are using

703

AI that you don't know about, and

you don't know what AI they're using

704

and what they're putting into it.

705

Thomas: I guess alignment and

governance is pretty important.

706

But then if you take some of these, what

you've started to see, and let's focus

707

on the people team and talk a little bit

about the function as we close out here.

708

Where do you think

things are going to land?

709

Like, what do you if I just asking you

about the how HR changes in the age of AI?

710

What do you think future

proof HR function looks like?

711

Jennifer: Yeah.

712

So what I will say is, I don't

think AI is going to replace HR.

713

You cannot have Human Resources

without the human component to it.

714

resources without the

human component to it.

715

What AI will do and I think can

do for those of us who really

716

embrace it is amplify our impact

within our organizations because

717

it's helping us accelerate things

that often take a lot of time.

718

Think about starting something

new that you've not done or

719

building a training resource.

720

You can use AI to get through that blank

page, hard part of getting started and

721

utilize your time where it really matters,

which is making sure that the work that

722

you're doing is the stuff that's the

most important to the organization,

723

that it's got the human touch that

it needs, that it's fitting to your

724

company's culture and language and tone.

725

And AI can't completely do that.

726

It can help and it can really

accelerate things for you.

727

But where I see it is as a tool for a

department who through most organizations,

728

operates pretty lean, it's going to help

amplify our impact if we can learn to

729

use it and learn to use it really well.

730

Thomas: Yeah, to your point,

it's already pretty lean, right?

731

So that's the reality.

732

So in some ways, because of that history

for the function, it's just going to

733

be like a future HR function in terms

of ratio and employee to HR team might

734

be similar, but you're just their day

to day and how people are leveraging

735

tools could be quite different, right?

736

Jennifer: Yeah, I think so.

737

I think it's going to expand the things

that we are able to do and I think

738

do them faster and do them better.

739

And to your point earlier of doing more

with less, I think it helps us do more

740

with the same or less in some cases.

741

But I think that is really the impact

that AI can have because we're already so

742

lean that it just helps do the things that

are really important that are the things

743

our companies want us to be doing, right?

744

Like they don't want us spending

time doing administrative tasks

745

and working on compliance.

746

Those have to be done.

747

They want us to do them and

make sure we're not uncompliant.

748

Thomas: That was my point.

749

It doesn't go away.

750

It's just you're stacking on top.

751

Jennifer: But they want us to

really be helping shape the

752

organization and the culture and

guiding it and course correcting.

753

And so finding ways to use AI

that allows you to focus the bulk

754

of your time on those things.

755

I think that's where the

real opportunity is for us.

756

Thomas: Do you think more like in

the doing more with less, right?

757

Is that more that's going to be

enabled kind of like more of the same

758

in that hire more people or engage

better or do the same kind of things?

759

Or actually, is it more

in a difference in kind?

760

Like there's new types of things that like

the function is really not being asked

761

to do today or doesn't even like, is not

even maybe considered part of the remit.

762

Do you imagine any kind of scope

expansion because of all this?

763

Or is it just like you're able to just

hire better, retain better, run all

764

your programs better that we're already

doing with the same number of people?

765

Jennifer: Yeah, I think

it's certainly that, right?

766

Because AI is being built into the

systems that we're using to give us

767

better data insights quicker without

having to dig and sift through

768

everything to decipher it ourselves.

769

Yes, we still need to go sense

check and all of those things.

770

So I do really think it helps

us amplify our impact there.

771

And then, hey, will it bring in things

that maybe we're not seeing right now?

772

I think it'd be silly to say no.

773

That's the nature of what every role

I think has been for as long as time.

774

So I don't think I'd be surprised if

something else came into HR's remit

775

because AI has become a thing now.

776

What it is, I don't know.

777

But I think, you know, it's exciting

actually to think about and I

778

certainly wouldn't be surprised.

779

Thomas: That's an exciting time indeed.

780

We can see what the future can bring us.

781

But if we have, I guess, this pairing

of the right tools with the right

782

agility, mentality, and I guess,

enablement of a full-on HR team,

783

you can consider yourself a little

bit more bulletproof, future-proof

784

for whatever that could look like.

785

But certainly, there's a lot more of

what we're already doing today, right?

786

That there's much more demand already

from then we have the capacity to provide.

787

So let's look at it that way.

788

Thank you for this conversation, Jen.

789

It's been really interesting to pair

some of these big moments of disruption

790

that so many companies have gone through.

791

we went through your experience, whether

it's M&A or on the other side, reorgs, but

792

then taking those lessons into this new

AI era, there's a lot of change management

793

that overlaps with that, but then

there's also some unique things that new

794

challenges that we're all working through.

795

So thanks for sharing your

experience and thoughts about this.

796

And for everyone out there who has

been following along, I hope this

797

conversation has been helpful as you're

thinking about future-proofing your own

798

organizations and your own HR functions.

799

And thanks once again to Jennifer

for joining me on this conversation.

800

Jennifer: Thanks, Thomas.

801

It's great to be here.

802

Thomas: Absolutely.

803

All right.

804

See you on the next one.

805

Bye now.

806

Thanks for joining us on this

episode of Future Proof HR.

807

If you like the discussion, make

sure you leave us a five star

808

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809

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810

See you next time as we keep our pulse on

how we can all thrive in the age on AI.