In this episode, we sit down with Jackson from Enduro Builders in Adelaide to talk high performance homes, energy efficient construction, and what it actually takes to build houses that perform year after year. We recorded inside a Passive House, and once you feel that level of comfort and stability, it’s hard to accept what “normal” housing has been getting away with.

Jackson has been building certified Passive Houses and energy efficient homes in South Australia for more than a decade, and he keeps it simple. No magic. No secret sauce. Just good design, tight detailing, and refusing to cut corners where it counts. We take a look at what makes a home feel consistently warm (or cool), how the building envelope does the heavy lifting, and why comfort is a measurable outcome, not a marketing line.

One of the best parts of this chat is how practical Jackson is about targets. Not every project needs certification, and not every client wants the same thing. We talk Passive House principles, performance tiers, and how to choose the right materials and systems for the brief, the budget, and the climate. The point is not the badge. The point is building performance, durability, and homes people can actually afford to live in.

We also get into the real-world negotiations builders face: design vs function, heating choices (including hydronic heating and wood fires), and what “cosy” really means in a well-built home. Plus, Jackson shares why he’s using Cross Laminated Timber (CLT) in his own build, and why systems and processes are the backbone of a sustainable building business. If you’re a builder, architect, designer, or homeowner who cares about sustainable construction in Australia, this episode will shift how you think about good building.

👇 CHAPTER MARKERS 👇

00:00 Introduction

01:08 Enduro Builders And Climasure

03:33 Scaling Passive House

05:50 Cost Premium Breakdown

07:54 Airtight Ceiling Strategy

11:01 Performance Solutions

16:20 Three Build Standards

17:34 Design Build Debate

22:56 Selling Comfort Not Tech

26:20 Rammed Earth Benefits

29:07 Solar Shading Tradeoffs

31:35 Hydronic Negotiations

33:52 Designing His Own Home

36:39 Forever House Priorities

37:48 Design Choices and Tradeoffs

38:50 Healthy Home and Fire Safety

41:28 CLT Structure and Insulation

43:43 Bushfire and Wind Detailing

44:51 Windows and Supply Chain

46:01 Interior Finishes and Joinery

47:29 Build Schedule and Winter Risks

51:43 Business Numbers and WIP

57:09 Coaching and Better Systems

01:03:27 Mindful Moment

LINKS:

Enduro Builders: https://www.endurobuilders.com.au/

Climasure: https://www.climasure.com.au/

Our Sponsors:

Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima

MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt

CR Kennedy - https://www.crkennedy.com.au/

Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram: @sanctumhomes

Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt:

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

We're in Adelaide.

Thanks.

We're, we're in, well we're in, we're South Australia.

We're not in Ad- Adelaide technically, are we?

Mount Barker.

Mount Barker.

Mount Barker.

Yes, and we are, um, recording from Enduro Builders Passive House…

Certified

Passive House … Certified Passive House.

Display home.

Display home.

Um, and obviously this is our, the mobile Pro Clima- Studio

studio.

Yeah, so we're up here for a night.

We've got an event tonight with ClimaSure and Enduro Builders.

It's gonna be fun, hey?

It's gonna be really good.

Um, and sold out tonight too.

Yeah.

So, there's gonna… this room's gonna be jam-packed full of 20 or 30 people.

I hope the HRV works.

Yeah.

Um- I

think Jackson forgot the boost switches.

Yeah.

Don't need them.

Um-

Uh, today we're joined by Jackson.

Uh, Jackson, I'm gonna let you introduce yourself.

Uh, obviously we've known each other for a long time.

Mm-hmm.

In fact, we did the Passive House

trade- We- That's when we met … that's when you first met … as a tradies

course.

Oh, you did

your Passive House course together.

We did, yeah.

Yeah,

I always say to people that Hamish and I bonded over a, a, a dislike of idiots.

Jackson, thanks for joining us.

Yeah.

Do you wanna let everyone know who you are and what you do and…

I, uh, I'm the owner of Enduro Builders and ClimaSure.

So Enduro Builders, we specialize in building, um, energy efficient

homes and building to the certified Passive House standard.

We, um, we've been going now for 10 years, and, uh, we do,

we do about 25 projects a year.

And- Oh … we're still growing.

So we've got a, I've got a fantastic team of guys now.

We've got 17 of us.

Um-

Are they new homes, all of them, or-

No … anything?

There's a mixture of addition renos and new homes.

We'd love to make our mix more new home, but there's so many houses that

we come across that are, they're worth saving and they're worth improving.

Yep.

Um-

Is it pretty much as long as the project's profitable, ticks the criteria

of high performing, you'll take it on?

Yeah, if people want to improve the quality of the thermal envelope of the

house and their comfort, um, and, and it's a project where we know we can

add value, then we're happy to do it.

Yeah.

Uh, I'm also the owner of ClimaSure.

So I set ClimaSure up, um, because I, as I got into Passive

House, I got into Pro Clima.

Yep.

And, uh, we were, um, the biggest client in the state, and also the only client.

And we were, um- Just, yeah, I got introduced to Thomas- Oh, yeah … then,

and yeah, started, started the business as a separate business.

And so we provide, um… We obviously sell Pro Clima membranes.

We sell a bunch of ancillary stuff that goes with it, and, um, and

provide consulting to builders and architects on what we do, and that's,

that business is mainly run by Jess, who everyone's pretty familiar with.

And so is this, the house we're seeing now, is this your first Passive House, or-

This was our…

Yeah, this was the first certified Passive House that we built.

Wow.

We had a couple of houses beforehand that were not certified, but we

did everything that you would do.

Um, so yeah, it was… When did we do this?

2022, we did this house.

And how many certified projects now?

Uh, good question.

We do about three or four a year, so there's…

We'd be nudging 10 now.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Yeah.

And I actually love when you introduced Enduro Builders before, you actually

said, "We build energy-efficient homes," before Passive House.

Yep.

Which, and I don't wanna ruffle any feat- feathers in the

Passive House space- I will.

I think we're past that,

aren't we?

We're, we're very, we're very much past that, but I actually really

like that because I, in my opinion, makes your product or what you do

as a business much more open to a broader part of the community.

Yep.

And I know, you know, having chats with you over the years,

you're quite an ambitious person.

And I, and, and I think if you set out to build 100 certified passive

homes a year, you'd never hit it

Not- There's a pause there

not in the next, not in the next 12 months So there's- But maybe

in the next 10 years So goal-

Getting certified buildings?

Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

But in the next 10 years.

That, I think that's, that, that goal, which I've shared a lot, is still a goal,

but I'm realistic about it's, it's not gonna happen quickly, and it's certainly

not gonna happen while the cost base is still just a bit too high for it to be

something that everyone would look at.

So just, just to- It's a good- … recap it here … segue … one of,

one of your goals is to build 100 certified passive homes in a year.

Yep.

Okay.

And I reckon it'll take me 10 years to get to that.

So

it's an extra- I, I tell you what- … 10, an

extra 10 per year.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, but we're talking certified buildings.

So he, he does 25 homes a year at the moment, not certified

buildings, three or four.

To actually get it… How many passive homes do you build

a year, certified buildings?

Uh, two.

Yeah.

I, I reckon one or two for me, not turning over the same volume as-

Yeah … Jackson, but if everyone came to me… Well, I don't think we would

have a business, a viable business, if we were just saying, "We only build

certified Passive Home builders…

uh, Passive

Homes." Yeah,

I agree.

I reckon, I, I don't-

But that's why I

say 10 years.

That's, yeah,

but I, I reckon- But is that

an education thing?

I reckon you would.

I… it might not be at the scale, but I think you… I

think there's such an appetite.

Like, I look at all my projects that I've even got in pre-construction-

Yeah, I, I

agree

all of, all of them are going for certification.

Yeah, I agree- Mm-hmm … but we're talking about 100.

Yeah, but as sort of… it's like, it's a marketing thing when-

Anyway, I hope you do it.

I'm not saying you- No,

but like it's a-

I think if anyone's gonna do it, I reckon

it's Toby.

But it's a good, but it's a good segment.

It's a good actual conversation because we don't plan anything what

we're gonna talk about, but e- you talk about the cost of building here.

Yep.

It's everywhere right now with the war in Iran.

But we- Is it actually that more expensive?

And like, w- 'cause there's no one's done any study or any data

around it, it's just, yeah, it is

Um, I don't know where to start answering that question.

I can answer all the bits of it- Yeah … because we looked at this house and, um,

we obviously had very detailed costing information, and we were able to, uh,

identify that it was about 50 grand, um-

Over how much?

Like, uh, what was the build cost?

At the time that we built it- Yeah … it was about 650 grand.

So what's that, an extra- Cost to build

is that, is that 5% more?

Is that maths off the top of my head?

Uh, yeah, give or take.

Yeah.

And obviously as the house gets bigger, so there's a few things,

like as the house gets bigger, the cost to convert it from just a

high-efficiency house where we still get under, um, under three air changes-

Yeah

… to a certified passive house, you're pretty much talking about adding

an internal membrane on the walls, 'cause our high-efficiency spec, we

go across the ceiling with Intello.

And, um, and a couple of things to do with, you know, insulating under

slabs goes from optional to mandatory.

Um, and, and if a handful of bits and bobs with glazing and the like, um, plus the,

plus the consultants and certifying fees.

But on a two-story building, that jump is a lot smaller- Yeah … in price

because you can do just the basics.

Like we're sitting in a room here, that ceiling is fixed below the

rafters, so there's no space for, um- Intello … your HRV ducts.

There's Intello there.

But you just… Yeah, okay.

But the HRV ducting is all run through the floors.

I, I have

noticed that, yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah, you spend a bit of money, a bit more money on your floor

structure 'cause you're doing trusses, but you're not, um, you're not

blowing out the cost in a big way.

Just wanna… You said something before that in your high-efficiency homes, and

after this question, I just want you to maybe talk about the different levels of

homes that you build at Enduro Builders.

Mm-hmm.

But first question is, is the reason you're doing it in the ceiling

just because that's where you're seeing most of your vapor movement?

That's where you see most of the risk?

Uh-

Or is it, is, is it a, is it a mold and condensation- Jess,

Jess … risk mitigation, or is it a- Is this a Jess question?

Or just airtightness?

Uh, so it's primarily to do with how we get airtightness to the level that we do.

So there's, um- And there's also a practical part.

So, 'cause you wouldn't spend money on Intello unless it made practical sense in

a house where you don't have to have it.

Yeah.

So with high efficiency homes, we focus on the membrane on the outside

doing the, doing the airtightness work.

Yep.

Then the, um, the reason for having Intello across the ceiling is that we use

it to separate the insulation above from the conditioned space below, and then we,

we batten it all so it's all supported, and then we drop the ceiling off that.

So all of our high efficiency houses with 2.7 meter high ceilings will

have three meter high walls, because then you drop the ceiling and all of

your duct work goes into that drop.

Yeah.

Um, and it is just a good way of separating the two, and we looked

at doing it with plasterboard.

The pro- and we did build a house with plasterboard, um,

and- Airtight, plasterboard airtightness, that is.

You've got plasterboard here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we're not, we're not using the plasterboard for airtightness.

We're basically using the plasterboard or in all the homes we build now,

Intello, to hold the insulation up.

Yeah.

Um, and, and make sure that there's no free air movement between air

rising up through the ceiling-

Yeah

and, um, and the insulation.

And it's, there's also then, at the very end of all of that, and, and this is where

lots of people are gonna go, "Ooh, we can't do that," but actually you can, you

just have to calculate it, um, is that the Intello does reduce the amount of

moisture going into the roof space- Yeah

which is completely sealed, because we're relying on the membrane to go

around the outside, and there's a, um- Essentially, that moisture that

goes up into the ceiling space, you gotta make sure that the Mento has got

enough, um, vapor transportability-

Yep

… to take that moisture out.

So if you can start off by reducing the amount getting in.

So just, so just for clarity, you're saying that you're

comfortable putting your insulation essentially in a cold roof scenario?

Mm.

Rather than pushing your insulation to the top of the… Yeah.

Okay.

Which allows

us to move the- I'm, I'm, I'm the same too … roof trusses, which then-

Yeah … which then brings the cost down.

Yeah.

And, but it, it, it does also mean that it becomes a performance solution.

Yeah.

It doesn't-

Have you had that signed off as a performance solution yet?

No.

So what I've done, is I've done the calcs.

Yeah.

And, I'm waiting for the day that a certifier says-

You can't do that … "Why are

you doing that?" And they were like, "Here's the performance solution, and

we're validating it by, via calculation."

But there's no way to calculate a 3D structure for that, isn't there?

Isn't that the whole issue with Woofy, that you can't actually simulate?

Yeah.

So it's, um, the way I've done it is in a spreadsheet.

Yeah.

Okay.

Because you work out the volume.

Yeah.

Then you work out at the different temperatures how much moisture's in there.

Yeah.

And, um, and then you calculate how, how much, um, moisture makes

it out through the membrane.

And then as long as the, the amount that gets out is greater than the amount going

in.

But can you sign off on a performance solution as a builder?

Wouldn't you not have to give that to a building surveyor

or to a engineer or someone?

No.

So we can do, we can do all the calculations and, um, as long as

a certifier is comfortable that-

That's correct.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and you can always go to a third party.

Yeah.

And we could, we could go to someone like Jesse Clark.

Yeah.

And I could give him the spreadsheet if the certifier was really-

Not happy.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

If he was not happy about it, you just go to a third party

and say, "Here's all my calcs."

Yeah.

Um.

Interesting.

" Have I made an error?"

' Cause I build the same as you.

I hate that rule where you gotta wrap it, uh, like leave the roof- You

gotta ventilate it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I, I just think it to me is a, in my limited knowledge, it's a

easy cop-out way to not solve the problem, but do something about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the tricky bit is, what I'm talking about, it moves you into building

stuff that is performance solutions.

Which are, um- Y- you have to really know what you're doing-

Yeah

… and be able to, like, provide calculation or provide some evidence that you've

stepped it through- Mm … kind of in an engineering manner to prove that you

didn't just stand there on site one day and go, "Oh, we'll just give that a go.

She'll be all right.

We'll call it a performance solution." That's not how that works.

Yeah, I suppose the calculations is the hard… So a lot of the projects

we're having come out, we're just saying we want rafters or parallel trusses-

Mm. Yep

… um, just to, to prevent that, that issue, and we'll just fill the whole- Yep

bay with insulation.

Yeah, I, I, I wanna go back-

We're, we're doing, we're doing warm roofs.

Before you ask your question, I just wanna… So you, you talked before about,

um, one of the particular products that you deliver in a, a high efficiency home.

Mm-hmm.

What are some of the other, like, homes that you build?

Like the… 'Cause there's a tier, like there's a hierarchy of-

Yep

… different energy

efficiency there.

Yeah, I can talk about it.

Yeah.

One thing I'll say before that, with the building code, there is also a thing in

the building code that does allow for signing off of performance solutions

by a suitably qualified person- Yep

which includes a builder, 'cause I signed off an earthship waterproofing

system in Victoria, 'cause the building surveyor was like, "This

will never work," blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

And like I've seen it work all over the world and, and the surveyor, um,

that was engaged by the client said, "Oh, there's this thing in the code."

I can't remember the specifics of it- I know it, yeah … but it's quite clear,

and it, it does allow for… It's kind of like a catchall, but obviously you would

never sign one of them unless you were 100% confident, 'cause if it ever fails-

You're liable.

Yes.

I am.

Do- are you 100% certain that that roof system works?

I am too, but it ultimately is like, there's still some people on the

fence about it that are pretty smart.

Yeah, but, um, there's a difference between- Uh, people that are willing to

take calculated risks and people that are not willing to take any risk at all.

And unfortunately, what we find a lot in this world is that people

that are not willing to take a risk at all often get their opinions

heard and followed through on.

Um, and that's why there's always room for entrepreneurs.

Yeah.

But there's also always room and opportunity for, in any industry,

for anyone to do something- I love that … if they're willing to

just take a bit of calculated risk.

I love that answer.

Yeah.

I agree with that.

I think because, like, ultimately you have Intello and you've

got a mechanical ventilation.

Well, that's- Yes … the other thing.

You have- Yes … when you add into it HRV-

Yeah, you're pretty safe … you, yeah.

I wouldn't do it without a HRV.

I wouldn't sign off on it in that part then.

Mm.

I feel like that just becomes s- you're relying on clients.

There's, there's a lot more moisture going up there.

Yeah,

yeah.

Um, and I've ne- I've only ever calculated with the HRV scenario.

Yeah.

So I couldn't even tell you because I've just not done it.

Yeah, okay.

But, um- Yeah, going, going back though, I want, because it sort of

ties into the conversation still.

We're talking about the cost of passive houses and still on airtightness.

I'd say that's really the only extra cost.

So you're gonna pay a little bit more for some extra insulation.

But I'd say the ma- major cost is actually wrapping internally airtight.

Mm. Yeah.

I'd, I'd say that, and then internally battened.

That's where-

Well, it depends what you're comparing it to as well.

This is, this is, this is- And, and so- … the great answer.

So,

um, like Hamish was asking, what are the three standards that you build to at

Endure, which is kind of how he asked it.

Um, so we have a certified passive house- Yeah … which is very clear.

Everyone knows what that is.

Um, high efficiency, and then energy efficient house.

So-

High efficient, uh, homes, we, we achieve between 1.5 and 3 air changes per hour.

Yeah.

Um, and w- for all of our levels, we put the air tightness that

we'll achieve in the contract.

Even on a retrofit, if you're not taking the whole building

apart, or is that separate?

Yeah.

So if we're doing reno additions-

Yeah

they, they generally will fall into, um, the energy efficient spec.

Yeah.

Sometimes, 'cause there's al- there's always little steps in between.

Yeah.

Sometimes we'll do an energy efficient one, but we'll put decentralized

HRVs in the addition, for instance.

Yeah.

So it's like a, an energy efficient house with a twist.

But we, we actually have them as written standards in the business-

Yeah … so that all of our salespeople, designers, estimators, they know,

like, this is the baseline for this standard that we need to include and

we need to design for and all of that.

So you'll design and construct as well?

Yes.

Why?

Um, huh.

You can just say it as

it

is.

Let's go back to the beginning.

So I started the business, uh, with a really strong intention

to work with architects and just work with architects, build great

homes, build energy efficient homes.

Then I started to grow the business, started to find that, um, I was

sending a lot of work to architects.

They were occasionally losing those clients for me.

Um, and then they weren't keeping up with the workload I was sending them.

So we had a couple of more straightforward jobs come through and, um, I designed

them, and quickly worked out that I love the idea of designing, but

it's not, it's not my skill set.

Um, and started to see that one benefit was the design came in on the client's

budget It moved through the process from design to costing to approvals to

contract really smoothly, and, um, and the client paid a lot less to get exactly

what they wanted in terms of design phase.

So you're saying architects don't design to budget?

I'm saying that they miss more often than they hit.

Um, and-

Fuck that, you poke bear.

And the thing is, though, I'm not saying anything that I haven't

said directly to architects.

Yeah.

And, um, and often it's in the same conversation as I say, "I would love

to work with you, and I want, like I, I want to help you look good."

Yeah.

" But you have to take on our, our advice." And there are

architects that we do work with.

So we design and do, but there, there are… There's two architects

in Adelaide that we will work with-

Yeah

… because they, they don't just pay lip service to collaboration, they

actually do it, and to the point where I'll go down to their office

and sit there drafting on their- Yeah

computers with them, working in their Revit file to get the details nutted out.

So, yeah.

That's awesome.

I think that's… Yeah, I love that.

It's just not lip service collaboration.

'Cause it is, that's a thing.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it's act- very common thing

It's easy to use all the words.

Yeah.

It's like, "Um, I'm an energy efficient builder."

I'm like, "Cool, so do you put air tightness in your contracts?" "Oh, no,

no, I can't do that." "Well, do you use double glazing?" "Uh, sometimes."

"Do you use thermally broken windows?" "Oh, no, they're too expensive." How,

how, how do you- Like here we go … how do you use modeling

to optimize your buildings?

Yeah.

Oh, never done, never done

that.

That's a great question.

Oh, but check out, check

out the kitchen design.

How cool is it?

Yes.

So there's, um… Yeah, I did, I haven't posted it yet, but, um, uh, we had a

situation just before Easter in a passive house, not that it really matters, but it

was a passive house, that we handed over.

They are on a rural property, so their water comes from a tank, and it's- Yeah

gotta get pumped.

The pump's brand new, been used for maybe two weeks before we hand it

over, and the pump stopped working.

And so we rang the pump supplier and we're like, "You know, got a problem with

the pump." And they're like, "Oh, you just take it off, bring it back to us.

We'll have a look at it, and we'll fix it up, and then we'll get it back to you."

I'm like, "How long is that gonna take?" "Oh, a couple of weeks." Hm.

Like, "Well, we can't… No, they're living in the house." Yeah.

"Oh, well, that's what you gotta do." So- My idea of customer service-

Yeah, it's not that

… is that we went off and bought another pump.

We went down, took the dodgy pump off, put the brand new one on, and

we're off getting that one fixed.

And when it's done, they'll get that pump back and we'll take the pump

that we bought away, and that'll sit in the shed until that happens again.

Yeah.

'Cause I'm sure it'll happen again.

And that, that meant that that client was without water for about 30

minutes while we switched it all over.

And what I know is, I hear stories where some, some builders would

just go, "Okay, well, all right.

Sorry you're without water, but you'll be fine."

Yeah.

And not care about it.

And then they blame, and then they blame, and then they blame

that Passivhaus doesn't work.

That was it.

But, which is the case of the water pump has nothing to do

with the Passivhaus element.

Yep.

Yeah.

It, that's a… Why would they… I just don't understand why they go, "Yeah,

hey, we'll bring you out another one.

Just change it over, and we'll take the old one

back." Absolutely.

Yeah.

"We'll, we'll be there, we'll be there in, on this date with a new pump,

and we'll take the other one away."

Yeah.

Yeah.

We'll just give you a new one.

That makes it simple 'cause- Yeah … 'cause are you gonna

buy a pump from these guys again?

No, they're done.

It, and, and that's, that's one thing that, like, our really good

trades, they, they know that, you know, if they do good work, charge a

fair price, don't let us down- It's

money for Jam

… they, they have an income for life from us.

Um, and the ones that just don't care about it, and it's

always swings and roundabouts.

I'm sure there are days where our trades cop it and, and maybe don't make as much

off a job that they thought they would, but then there's probably other days

where they have an absolute dream run and they're like, "Oh, I allowed that

to take 20 hours, and it took me 18- Yeah … I'm gonna get a little win."

So it's always swings and roundabouts.

Are you putting, uh, HRVs in all of your buildings?

Not quite, but it's, the percentage is jumping up a lot.

Yeah.

Um, as we- we've worked out lots of different ways to do it that are, um,

economical and, um, and we, I've, I've, I've worked really hard on educating my

team on, like, how to talk about these things better so that clients feel a lot

more, um- Or have a lot more understanding of what they're about to, you know,

spend money on and how it benefits them

This is a good topic because people…

Sales, and I don't think we ever really talk about… We're talking about

marketing of Passive House and, and high performance, whatever you want to

call it, but sales is a whole different thing, 'cause I constantly get on social

media, kids reach out, I shouldn't say kids, people, and they're like,

"Oh, I, I can't convince the client to use the, the Pro Clima membrane."

I'm like, "Just don't tell them." Like, do we need to tell

them they're getting a HRV?

Make it a standard.

Make it a standard.

Mm.

Like, do we need to talk to them?

Just be like, "Hey, do you want clean, fresh air?" "Yes." "Okay,

we put one in." "Do you want it?" "No." "Okay, we won't put one in."

Yeah.

Is it really… Do we just overcomplicate it?

Yeah.

I- I've definitely done that journey, where I've talked too much to

clients about the technical stuff.

We all do, though.

And, um-

I just think that's the biggest failing in marketing of high

performance and Passive House.

Yeah.

We get excited about that shit, but I'd say that if you… Say, if you

want to build 100 Passive Houses in a year, if you got stuck in the weeds

and started talking about all the data- You don't have time to do it

you don't, we don't have the time to do it.

Yeah.

And people probably don't give a shit either.

Yeah.

So-

They just wanna know they're comfortable, and they want the

emotion of the health and comfort.

Like, so w- I live in one.

I've come… Did you know that, Hamish?

I did.

You know … Things are grand.

Yeah, I know.

So- They, they g-

You know what?

Let, I'm gonna stop you- So

I've come, so I've left this morning, this, like, we, I left the

house about 4:30 this morning- Yeah

uh, to get the flight here.

Outside was eight degrees, 10 degrees.

I had no idea, 'cause you walk out.

And then we come here, we're in the airport, it's nice and warm.

Then you c- like, we're in a Passive House now, and the level of comfort

is just like, "Cool, I'm so much happier again in here." Yeah.

I can't, you can't describe it.

It's, it's weird.

It's-

So just, just an observation.

When we came in here-

Mm

… no one living in here.

Yeah.

So I actually, I walked in, I'm like, "Okay, cool. It's,

it's, it's nice in here."

Yeah.

Yeah.

But as we've been in here, this is probably how a Passive House works, as

we've been in here, the temperature's actually risen a little bit.

Yeah, we're

moving around.

Because we're in here, and we're existing, and all that kind of stuff.

Yep.

Yep.

Um,

so, like, there are 30 people that are coming tonight.

That's like running the three kilowatt split system on a heater.

That's exactly what it's gonna be like, 30 people in a house.

Yeah.

The house, the, the house does warm up when we have a big group in here.

It's surprising how quick too, hey?

And- Any, any house does that.

It's not like it magically occurs in passive houses.

Um, the difference is that the heat doesn't dissipate.

Yeah.

So- Yeah, it

stays in the house.

Yeah.

Um-

We should, we should track it.

We should actually open all windows and doors.

Have you got a sensor in here?

And see how long it takes people to get up- We

do, yeah.

It's just behind the TV.

Should

see- Yeah … how quickly it actually will hit temperature again.

There's a phubbometer.

I, I… Again, but you don't… What for?

Mm-hmm.

Like, like what's… We're not gonna- That doesn't sell to a client.

Because there's absolutely nothing planned in, in any of our conversations,

if you're watching this video right now, and if you're looking at me and Jackson,

there's a rammed earth wall behind us.

Yes.

Now, is that architectural feature, is it thermal mass?

Is it… How are you selling this thing to people?

I'm pleased

you asked.

There you go.

Yeah.

Jackson's got- That was even- Jackson, Jackson's got a, a

rammed earth company now too.

A lot of our homes end up with rammed earth in them.

Yeah.

Um-

' Cause I've been, I've been to a few now.

You took me on a, on a tour a couple of years ago.

I love

it.

Yeah.

So, for this house, it's serving two purposes, both of

which you listed off already.

Looks nice.

Yeah.

It's a piece of art on its own.

Yeah,

it's beautiful.

Um-

It's very red, like I haven't seen it this red through the lines.

Yeah.

Well, it just depends where you, where- So-

what quarry you come from, or how much, um, oxide you put in.

Yeah, okay.

Um, and the other purpose that it serves is that it's a temperature regulator.

Yep.

So lots of people will, will go, "Oh, we need to put thermal mass

in." And my next question is always, "You, do you want a battery or a

regulator?" What are you talking about?

Yeah Car parts or?

And I'm like, "No, no.

Rammed earth takes an enormous amount of heat to heat it up, or an enormous

amount- Yeah … of cool exposure to cool it down because of the structure of it.

There's all, like you can see that there's solid bits and really open bits.

Yeah.

And so it's containing bits of air in between the mass, and,

uh, what that means is it stays at a pretty stable temperature.

Um, and putting it in the two-story part means that we get

that vertical airflow past it.

Ah, okay.

It-

And I came across all of that a few years ago when someone sent me, one of the

rammed earth guys we use, sent me a study that they did in Western Australia on the

performance of rammed earth in houses.

Yeah.

And they had temperature sensors at all different depths of the

wall, and like a wall exposed to direct sun, the surface warmed up.

But once you were in 20 mil, it was back to 8 degrees, and by

the middle it was 16, and then-

Wow.

Yeah.

Does that, does that slowly make its way through the whole wall?

Like, over time.

No, just it, in, in that particular study, um, they, they found that it hit

that peak temperature and didn't, it didn't really- Ah … just keep heating.

Do you think this house would perform differently if you didn't

have the rammed earth here?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it would be a little bit hotter in summer.

And the- that's, that's the other thing about Passive House is you

have to work out the performance of the house before you build it,

and it also helps you in costing.

So with this house, it's got all of this glass facing east, because when it's not

raining, there's a great view out there.

Um, and-

And no blinds.

No.

So, and there's a, there's a whole costing reason for that- Yeah … that

we were able to vet out in the Passive House, um, costing and design process.

So we,

with this design, in winter it has quite a low heating demand.

Yeah.

Uh- Do

you know off the top of your head what it is?

I think it's 12.

That's pretty good.

Yeah.

It's in the book downstairs.

Yeah.

Have a look later.

Um, and but we were right on the, right on the limit with cooling.

Yeah.

And- We looked at doing shading over these east-facing windows, and at the

point in time that we were looking at that, we'd already costed the house, and

included in the cost was six kilowatts of solar and the air conditioning

system, the, the single split system.

Yeah.

You've just got the one in here?

Just one.

Wow,

okay.

Yeah, does the whole house.

And-

A five

kilowatt?

Uh, seven.

Yeah, okay.

And, um, I think if you had to do this whole house as like a normal house,

you'd put in like an 18 or a 20.

Oh, and, and not only that, you'd be using it the whole time to fight

against the outside temperature.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So then, so then we, we looked at shading, so we were like, "Okay, we can spend

another 30-odd grand and put shading in."

That would have to be retractable- Yeah … hence the increased cost of doing it.

Yeah.

Because we, 'cause if it was permanent, then our winter heating

demand went over the threshold.

Yeah.

And, uh, we worked out that we actually were gonna be producing

enough solar energy in summer to just run the air conditioner, still

be putting power back into the grid, and avoid spending the extra money.

So sometimes building a passive house can actually save you going

down the solar passive principles road and building a whole bunch

of stuff you don't actually need.

This

is a

good one- But also, but also still all of that and still

getting a certified building.

Yes.

Yeah.

Def- I'd, I'd, I'd almost say as well, if you're putting hydronic in your

brand new house, it'd be cheaper to build a passive house, just if you

had to run with hydronic heating.

Like the th- You're gonna spend 50 grand on the hydronic heating?

25.

Really?

Yeah.

I haven't done it

for years.

I'm only familiar with that 'cause that's, that's what the

hydronic's costing in our house.

We're doing a certified passive house, but it's, um-

So why'd you put hydronic in?

'Cause this is my next question.

You are, you're building your own house.

The negotiation thing.

So I've negotiated out a fireplace, and- Is this

negotiation with your wife?

Yeah.

Yeah,

okay.

Yeah, yeah.

I can guarantee you, you will never turn that on.

No, and I, I f- I feel the same way because this house doesn't

have hydronic heating, and-

Have you, have you started building it?

No, we're demolishing it in two weeks.

So have you got a polished concrete slab?

No, this is the other thing.

We've got, we've got timber going over the top.

But, and, and, uh, for me- With over

slab, over slab insulation?

Yeah, under slab.

Under slab?

Yeah.

And then timber on top.

So, so if, well, because, so this is really good, 'cause

last night we came home at about 7:00, Nicole, myself, and Noah.

We left the front… It was, it's been cold like in Melbourne the last few days.

The house, I've been playing with it.

I actually didn't realize my HRV was still set to cooling mode,

so it got down to 19 degrees.

Mm-hmm.

Yesterday we left the front- You

poor thing.

I know.

Um, so we left the front blind open.

So we left the…

I don't know.

So do you, do you wanna know how cold mine was this morning?

So by the- It would've been eight.

It

would've been eight degrees.

So

by the time, by the time I put a pot of water on to heat some eggs

up for Noah, it'd lifted a degree.

But the, 'cause I've got a sensor right next to, around that area.

But what we noticed is we left the front blind open to get the north light in.

Mm. Nicole was like, "Oh, t- Charlie, our dog's been, must have been laying

here. It's all nice and warm here. And she's like, "Oh, it's warm here, too.

Oh, it's warm here, too." Right.

This slab is honestly… I've, and I've, I've been in houses with hydronic

ceilings, heating on the floor.

It's the same.

It, it honestly, as a decoupled slab, I reckon we sit very

similar on a, on a temperature- Yeah … when it actually holds.

Haven't lived there in winter, that's why I say I don't

think you'll ever turn it on.

Yeah.

So-

But again, this is-

A negotiation

… a part of negotiation.

Absolutely.

And, you know, it-

Put your board, put the

wood fire out

building this house has been a massive, or designing it-

Are you designing it for yourself, too, or have you got someone, an architect?

No.

So, m-um, Carly, my wife, and I worked out years ago that it's always good for

us to use a third party because none of, none of my ideas get accepted off the bat.

Sounds like this

is like the co- Yeah

it's like your- 'Cause I don't know what I'm doing.

I have no idea

what I'm doing.

So you're, you're not bringing the in-house, you're not bringing your

in-house design team to design your home?

No, our in-house design team designed our house.

I see.

That's an idea.

Cool.

And they worked with Carly and I, and, and we got- You're, you're a client

we got treated like a client, and same with building it because I'm,

I'm too busy ru- running- Yeah … the businesses to be supervising the build.

Um-

Have you

found

many inefficiencies?

Like, why are we doing that?

Why are we doing that?

Or you're not looking at it that

way?

I, I learnt, I learnt a few things about our sales process that from the outside

when I created it I thought were great.

Yeah.

But then from the inside I went, "Oh, we're gonna tweak that a little." So there

were no, like, world-beating changes.

Yeah.

What I have learnt along the way is I have this… It's almost like a burden

of knowledge and understanding about how the house will work By, not only by just

knowing how a design's gonna work because you get good at looking at a set of

plans and going, "That's not gonna work.

That's g- that's gonna work great" Yeah.

"That room's gonna be hot." Like, you guys would be able to… I'd give you

a set of plans, and if I gave you my house plans- Yeah … you'll identify

the three major issues, and then I'll tell you how we overcame them.

But you'd do it in the first two minutes looking at the plans.

Whereas Kylie is focused on the finishes and all of these sorts of things,

and being concerned about being cold.

Oh, you won't be cold.

You, you'll actually overheat.

I know,

yeah.

Sometimes too warm.

Yeah.

However, h- yeah, but I, I understand where Kylie's coming from, 'cause

I've actually been to Jackson's house, and I know where- Yeah, the old one

I, the, sorry, the old one Yeah … and I know where it is, and I can understand

wh- or how that… I've never lived in it.

I wasn't

living in it.

And

it was a nice day when you were there, too.

It was, it was a nice day, but knowing the Adelaide Hills and knowing how

cold it can get, I'd, I understand.

I'd put a wood fire heater in before you do it.

I was, I, I- I'd actually put the wood fire in before the hydronic

… I've got this written down.

So can I ask why?

'Cause I, I would've done the same thing.

I would've put a fireplace in.

Right.

I- if, if, if it was one or the other- Yeah … one,

fireplace is gonna be cheaper.

Yep.

And

two- Just a- there's ambience around it.

I, I- Mm-hmm … I don't know.

L- And, and again, I probably, um, unfortunately for me w- with this

decision, I know where you live.

And I, and I know the context of where this place is.

Yeah.

And having a fire there, in my mind, makes more sense than hydronic.

This is also crazy, 'cause I, I feel like I'm in your shoes now, having gone

through this with Nicole, that I know the conversations you're gonna have.

And- But how

do you- Well, I mean, they're all had now.

Like, you know, we're up to the demo of the house bit.

But- But

h- how did you land on the, uh, hydronic?

Because we're gonna live there until I'm at least 100.

Yep.

At le-

at least 100.

Yeah.

I'm gonna live till I'm 120.

Oh, wait.

But- Yeah … I mean, is it- Are you-

each conversation biohacking?

I'm not- Is that what you're doing?

No, no.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, great.

Well, I, I tell everyone I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work until I'm 110, then Kylie

and I'll have 10 good years, and then- Um-

This'll be funny for you,

Jackson.

70. She doesn't, she doesn't see the humor in it so much,

but, um- This is forever house

I love what I do.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

So it's a forever house, and I don't wanna be cutting wood or

buying wood and stacking it and sorting it and lighting the fire.

I, I don't wanna be doing that.

Yeah,

okay.

And I'd barely have time for that now, let alone-

And, okay, so, so that's the rationale for not putting a fireplace in

Yeah Don't

you have four kids?

Yeah, but- Don't you have a servant to- I have kids.

I do have kids Haven't you

got a servant to do that?

Yeah, so trying to get my son last night to set the fucking table- … was like,

"Dude, just put the plates there and put- grab the plates out of there and put them

on the table." It's like a two-second job.

So what, what other things did you have to compromise on?

Um-

Do you care about the looks?

I care about, I care about making sure that the house looks good because

I'll be judged on it as, as a builder.

I know that

feeling.

Um, and, and Kylie, you know, one good thing there is that Kylie's very

focused on how things look and, you know, wanting everything to be nice.

So-

Have you got interior design in-house as well?

So for this, this house we used an external interior designer.

Yeah.

That came about purely because our guys were so under the pump-

Yeah, okay

… that we, uh, we just got to a point where I was like, to keep this

moving, and, and the priority is always the paying clients, not me.

Yeah.

So yeah, we went to an external designer.

And it's

good to see how the p- and you probably picked up some stuff from that as

well, 'cause you're like, "Oh, we haven't looked at these materials,"

or, "Have we even thought about

that?" It's a good way to, it's a good way to, yeah, learn some things.

Yeah.

Have you gone crazy on the health aspect internally for the future?

Like have you… 'Cause I know when we did ours, I was not stopped, passive

house wasn't, that was a start.

Mm-hmm.

' Cause we got so many things inside.

Yep.

Have you gone further on that?

Yeah.

So we've, um- We've got, uh, there's all the basic compliance things now

of zero thresholds and the like.

Yeah.

Um, we're putting a lift in- Yeah

'cause it's a two-story house.

Uh, all of the hallways and, uh, are wide and, like, over 1.2.

Yeah

And, um, the doors are 920s.

So we- we've done all of the things to make the house really

accessible over its life.

Yeah

Um, my big focus beyond things like EMF and, um, material choice, but which most-

most things now are low VOC anyway- Yeah

was actually, uh, flammability.

Really?

Yeah.

Like, we're sitting on a couch that would ignite in a heartbeat, and-

Huh

… um, that rug is synthetic as well.

You're sitting on a synthetic chair.

And there's actually a lot of things that go into houses now

that are not great for fire safety.

Like what?

What else?

Um- Is it the s- the fu- the furnishing or actually the home?

Well, there's- there's, like, the- the fur- the furnishings

is one of the key ones.

Yeah.

Yeah Um, rugs and carpets that are- Yeah … all synthetic.

Yeah

Uh, a lot of cheaper cabinetry for some reason is really-

High

… really f- um- Yeah … flammable.

Uh, and then of course electronic things that- that light up and,

'cause they're made out of plastics, which are petrochemical products.

Um, and there's a… It all started when I watched a video on

LinkedIn where they had two houses.

One was furnished- Oh … like the '50s.

I

know, I know, I know the video

that you're talking about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the other one was furnished with modern stuff, and it, and it reached,

I think they call it flashover-

Yeah

in- in a very, like under 30 seconds, whereas the- the one from

the '50s, you could still wander around and hose things down.

But on the flip side of that, though, is you have nothing that's,

like, igniting in a passive house because it's generally all electric.

Yeah, but he's got four kids.

Well, running around with a lighter, are they?

Maybe.

Or a blowtorch.

I don't know.

Maybe.

You are right.

You- you-

Uh, I don't know the stats, but I imagine that a lot of house fires

now are caused by electrical faults

Or burning candles or-

Can I ask, um, in circles back to something I've got written here,

part of the construction of your home, or I don't know, there is

some structure that's gonna be CLT.

The whole thing.

Yeah.

The whole thing's CLT?

Yep.

So-

Exposed?

Is-

No.

So, uh, but, but also, but also I wanna, I wanna try and unpack this CLT thing

because we've looked at CLT a bunch of times- Mm-hmm … and it can never

stack up from a cost point of view.

Yep.

And 'cause I'm assuming you're gonna be-

You're

paying for it.

using 110 mil thick CLT for- 120.

120. All right.

So then how much wood fiber on the outside of that, or rock wool?

Um, so yeah, we're doing, we're doing Basrock on the outside.

Oh,

yeah, Basrock, yeah.

Um, and-

This is ren- rendered-

Rendered finish … rendered finish?

Yeah.

So 100 mil of Basrock, and then-

What… Is Basrock just Rockool equivalent, like

Stonewall?

Basically.

Rockool, Rockwool, and

then you render it.

Yeah, it's like a Stonewall, yeah.

Yeah, yep, same, same thing.

Um- So

there's an R2.5 externally then?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yep.

Um, the reason that we did CLT on this house is we've got, uh, the upper

level is bigger than the lower level.

Yeah, okay.

So there's only, um, the two ends of the house, the walls are sheer walls.

They go all the way out, the whole length, but the front and back overhangs.

Yeah.

So it, it meant that we had a lot of cantilevers to deal with, and that meant

a lot of steel structure And, and it's, it's got the… It's like a square shape

with the really fine, like, eyebrow look.

Yep.

Yeah.

You know?

And trying to do it- Sounds

like you've got a, sounds like you've got a really low pitch roof here too, Jackson.

Yep.

What, what- So

I've done a whole bunch of things- Yeah … that people are like,

" What?" Yeah.

Like- How low is it?

There is- Is it 1.5?

N- no, five.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

That's fine.

That's- Method to my madness.

Okay.

Um-

I have absolutely no doubt that every decision that you've made

has a calculated reason behind it.

Yeah.

Which is why I'm interested, because-

Tons of knowledge.

Yeah.

Yep.

So, um, so yeah, when I looked at how we make all those cantilevers

work, it meant a lot of steel.

Yeah.

And then just the detailing complexity went, brr.

Yeah, okay.

And, and lots of need for a lot of foam, and we're in a bushfire-prone area.

We're at the top of a hill.

There's a whole t- like seven acres of forest below us.

What's your, what- what's your BAL level there?

It's BAL 19 where the house is.

Yeah.

But you've obviously seen, like- Yeah, yeah, yeah … down from us, it's-

Yeah … so the, um, there was a big importance on avoiding things like

foam on the outside of the building.

Yeah.

And CLT ticked the box for the cantilevers, because it's basically

like using tilt-up concrete.

Yeah.

Um, and, and made the structure a lot easier to just fix insulation

to the entire outside of it.

Put it in steel.

And it's all rock wool.

Yeah.

But also racking forces, if you're on the top of a wind- of a hill.

Yes.

Like, you're gonna get some pretty high winds.

Yeah.

So, and that's been something that I've really impressed on the engineers,

and, and as I've gone through detailing, there's a few details

on the windward side of the house--

Yeah

… that everyone's like, "Fuck, that's a bit overkill." I'm like,

"You haven't lived here- Yeah

when it's sideways rain." Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, yeah.

What windows?

Logic House.

Have you… There.

So it was my first Logic House experience.

Harley- Did you have, have you, have you had the meeting yet?

Yeah, yeah.

It's intense, isn't it?

Yeah.

No,

it's all done.

They're on the boat.

How…

Did you have to, did you have to have a nap after it?

Were you just like, "Whoa, that's intense"?

Yeah, it was a

lot.

But-

I'm pict- I'm just imagining a conversation with Jackson

and Harley, like, I'd love to be a fly on the wall there.

I- Just details, details.

I like Harley.

Harley's really-

That they're good- … organized … their method is-

And orderly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And-

And they'll arrive the day that they tell you s- 26 weeks in advance.

Yeah.

Well, that's good to know.

They literally… I've, I have them in my house.

I dunno.

Yeah.

Where are you getting the CLT from?

Uh, NexTimber.

Timberlink in Mount Gambier.

Oh, yeah.

Yep, yep.

So they, um, yeah, they made the most sense, 'cause they're local.

Yep.

Uh, they do a lot of CLT to Victoria from there.

Yeah.

And, um- It's been a pretty good process with them as well

So any exposed CLT anywhere?

No.

Not even on like a ceiling?

No.

You could, do you, are you, is this a touching point for you, like

you really wanted to expose it?

Uh-

Is this one of the things you had to give up on?

No, it wasn't.

I, I, um-

W- so when we moved into the house that we're living in now- Yeah … which Hamish

has bri- bri- briefly walked through.

Yeah.

It's all pine matchboard everywhere.

I see

you've had that.

And I just couldn't… I, I get that lots of people really love it.

Yeah.

And that's great, it's good on them.

But it's not my, not my bag.

Are you having, like, are you having any timber inside or is it, like, white walls?

Like, what does it look like?

So th- this is where, you know, I've, I've accepted what what is desired.

Yeah.

Um, uh, so it's mainly, mainly gonna be white walls with… There's bits

of stone, feature stone through it.

Yeah,

yeah.

And, and there's a bit of money going into the cabinetry-

Yeah, okay

… to, to finish the house off.

And I, I'm a, I'm a big proponent for cabinetry does really, it,

it really finishes the house off.

It's worth- It does.

Agree … spending the money on.

Yeah, totally.

You know, if, if you're gonna spend money on areas of the house, you

spend it on the thermal envelope and the cabinetry and everything else.

Yeah.

Joinery's generally about 10 to 15% of a project cost on average, I would say.

You must have a really cheap cabinet maker.

We've gotta, I've gotta get his number.

Ours is

way more than that.

Of, of, of all… No, but on, like, the average client.

Right.

Not, not your place.

If you took the average client, would you say it's 10, 15?

Well, I'm talking about our average client.

Oh, yeah, geez.

Yeah.

You put a lot in then.

Yeah.

Yeah,

okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, wow.

Um-

Um, what's the build time?

The build time, in the way that we've scheduled it, is currently 10 months.

Wow.

The… I actually think we're gonna do it a lot quicker than that,

'cause one of the X factors for us is how quickly we'll get the CLT up.

Yeah.

I think we're gonna get the CLT up in about two weeks,

and everyone else is like,

" No, it's gonna take a month.

It's gonna take six weeks." I'm like, that's

how long it takes to frame it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It, it'll be- Yeah.

Yeah.

So that… The other, the other thing too that, um, the, my construction manager

and the site manager that's running the job, I, I've got them… They did the

first schedule, and it was about 12, and then we pulled it back in a few spots.

And then I said, "Once that CLT's up, we can start fit-out inside- Yeah … while

you're doing Bassrock and rendering and all of that stuff." And so I

said, "You can have work going on two fronts." And on that site, we've got

all the parking space in the world.

We've got all the drop-downs, because it's five acres, so there's no- Just

store stuff.

Yeah, there's no limit on having stuff delivered early.

Mm. So I, I'm, I'm really hoping that we'll, we'll be

able to pull it, pull it ahead.

But yeah.

I mean, I, I know we probably didn't sit here talking, trying, you know,

talk about how you're gonna build this thing, but I'm, am curious about

how the CLT and the roof's sitting.

Is it, is it 120 on the roof as well?

Well, you've got to be happy- No, it's thicker than that.

It's 160, I reckon.

One, so it's a 160

roof, and you got that at, at a five-degree fall?

Yeah.

Okay.

With, um, with that Hero- Okay

… on the top.

That

was gonna be my next question.

Is the whole thing in Hero?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you're gonna get the structure up, and then just Hero the shit out of it?

Uh, it'll come with that Hero on.

So when it all gets here- Oh, wow.

Great.

Yeah, awesome … it'll be, it'll be a big, big blue box-

Yeah.

Yeah … with a few bits missing.

And just- Um, like on the backside of parapets and stuff- Yeah … that

we'll then intel- we, we'll, um- 'Cause it's gonna be- … add Hero on site.

It's

gonna be my next question.

You're building in the Adelaide Hills, and I'm, I'm, I'm trying

to work through this timing

and this- Oh, in winter too.

Yeah, the CLT's gonna be going up in August- Ah, it's gonna

be 12 months … I'd imagine.

And it will, like, until like- Yes, until the

3rd of August.

Yeah.

Great.

See, picked it.

And I'm like, it's gonna be raining, like, all get out.

How are you protecting it?

So then- This has

got a great Grand Designs episode written all over it.

Well, one of the, one of the reasons that, uh… Originally we were not gonna

start the house until October so that we got into the drier part of the year.

Yeah.

The reality, it's like when people say to me, "Oh, you know, we don't wanna

start in winter because, like, your concrete i- you can't concrete in winter."

I'm like, "You know they have to earn an income all year round." Yeah.

Yeah.

So-

But also, it doesn't rain every single day in winter.

No.

No, and we're building a house that's gonna be constantly drying out.

Yeah.

So-

And once you're, once you're locked up, it doesn't matter if it rains every day.

Once the, the CLT's up and membraned, like, you're- Mm

set.

Yeah.

No, uh, that, yeah, so that, that's, that's… I've, I've got

no further questions, your honor.

I didn't think you were gonna ask me this many questions about the house.

Oh, but I'm curious, so

… I thought this was gonna be, like, a business conversation.

Well,

it

can

be.

We can- Well, what did you want to ask me?

We can talk about business.

All right.

So what's, uh, what's something that we should have talk, um, like, spoken about

that we- Yeah … didn't talk about, then?

I, I have no idea.

It… This is the hard thing.

You guys made me fill out this form, and I, it was a bit panicked.

I, because, I was- But I, I think- The only thing, Hamish, was this, like-

We just pre- Like, anal retentive with this podcast We, we just pretend we are.

Yeah,

right Can I tell, can I tell, can I tell that, um, Jackson messaged

me on a weekend one day- This

is a panicked text from me

… wh- on, on the weekend.

I was working at my house, he's working at his house.

I get this video going, "Oh man, I've, I filled this form out.

What do you wanna talk about?" I go, "All right, that's really just a

formality- … and it's just fallback stuff." Did you, did you read the- And

that's not the- Did you read the form?

I did- … and that's where I got the CLT from, so I'm glad

that you did fill the form out.

But I'm like, dude, me and Matt are probably the most organized

unorganized people you'll ever meet, and we're just gonna have a chat.

So

we had Jesse Clark a few weeks ago, and he's like, "What are we

talking about? I don't know. We'll work that tomorrow." We'll find

out as we go

And, and so he sits there and goes, "So what are we talking about?" And we're

like, "We don't know." We don't know.

He's like, "Well, we're live." And we're like, "What do you wanna talk about?"

He's

like, "Oh,

shit." Um, so we- let, let's go, let's touch on business, 'cause you do have

some pretty big business aspirations.

Like, what are… Like, at the moment, one thing that I'm trying

to, like, nail in is my financials.

It's something that, like, knowing my numbers, 'cause it's all, for

so long it's been in the back of my head and I'm just like, I know

it, but it's never there for me.

Like, where did you start to learn about all that sort of stuff, and

where did you, how did you educate yourself on those sort of things?

So way, way back, I actually, I went and started studying accounting at uni.

Yeah.

Yeah, wow.

Um, I didn't get through the degree, 'cause it got a bit boring.

Yeah.

Um-

You gonna tell me which part of accounting got boring?

Uh, it was when we got into, like- All of it … international finance and it was

starting to- I'd find that interesting … not be, like, anything I wanted to do.

So, uh, I… So I kind of come from an accounting background.

Yeah.

I, I love the numbers-

Yeah

… and understanding financials.

Um, and I got really lucky when I started in Juray because I stumbled on the

Association of Professional Builders.

Okay.

And, um, I worked with them for the first- Five years, I reckon-

Yeah

… of the business.

Um, and they have definitely got it dialled in- Yeah … with

construction company financials.

Yeah.

You know, what's important to watch and-

What's

not … and what's not.

Do you still work

with them?

Yes.

So I had a few years where I went and worked with someone different.

Yeah.

Um, and then I've just recently started working with them again.

This time around, our focus isn't about that fundamental stuff.

Yeah.

We're talking about ne- next steps with the business.

Like

scale.

Um, yeah.

And, uh, in particular, one thing- Right … that APB are doing really,

really well right now is their, their R&D on the use of AI is the best of…

They have a guy who's, I mean, he's the ops manager for the business-

Yeah

… but the bulk of his role is developing AI tools and developing AI training.

Okay.

So, um, but back to the financials.

So, like, the key thing that most builders miss is that what their work in progress

is- Yeah … which is essentially an accounting adjustment that you should

be doing every month to find out whether you actually made a profit or not,

because it a- it adjusts for your actual liability for the work in front of you.

And most tools like Wonderbuild have it built in now, but you should

still run a separate spreadsheet-

Yeah … which I've learned.

So Wo- Wonderbuild will knock out the WIP i-

I gotta be careful not to upset Hashi.

But he, he knows that we're finding it very clunky to m- to

manage the numbers really well.

Yeah.

So there's, there's work going on to… I, I think that o- one thing I've learned

is that I think lots of builders are happy to accept quite a bit of sloppiness

with their numbers, whereas w- we're not.

That's my problem right now.

I don't wanna slit- I don't want sloppiness, and that's- Yeah … where

I'm starting is, like, where do I start?

Yeah.

'Cause I want something.

So, I mean, f- obviously financials by every job, getting that WIP number,

making that, um, it's basically a manual journal entry every month-

Yeah

… which adjusts your cost of goods sold so that you get a true

figure for where, where you're at.

Um, and it also corrects your balance sheet.

Yeah.

So, but for, for profitability it's really important.

Um, and making sure that, that the total value of your WIP, you should have at

least that amount of money in the bank.

And if you don't, you're in real strife.

And I actually, I looked at buying another building company, uh, last year,

maybe the year before, and he gave me his financials and I, I went through

and calc'd his WIP based on his work-

Yeah

while we were sitting there.

Yeah.

And I was like, "Oh, you're about 500 grand in the hole." He's like, "What

do you mean?" I'm like, "You, you're, at some point in the next 12 months, y-

you, you're gonna run out of cash." And, um, we then, we then agreed- Yes, yeah

… that I wasn't gonna buy that liability.

And, uh, six months later I was chatting with him, still chat to him.

Yeah.

Like, it was just one of those things and it didn't work out.

Um, and he said, "Yeah, you know that comment you made about the…" Yeah.

He said, "We're trading through it, but had you not said that, I

would've not known that was coming and I was actually partially

prepared. It's still hurting me."

Yeah.

So that, if, if you ever thought that what I said about WIP being important

is not important, that, that story alone, and because I knew how to calc

it, at leas- I did it while we were sitting there at the table and, um, and

I was probably, you know, I might have been correct, give or take 50 grand.

Yeah.

But it didn't really matter in the scheme of it.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

Um, and if you know that number then you know whether you can sleep well at night

or whether you need to start looking at your opex or look at getting more work on.

And did you learn that from your accounting background or is that from-

That was APV.

The WIP thing was all APV.

Yeah.

I knew what WIP was.

Yeah.

And I knew how it worked, but calculating it properly- Yeah … I learned from APV.

Would never have learned it without them.

So

you've invested a fair bit of money in coaching then over the years?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.