Summary:

This podcast conversation is with Tom Waldron, a movement specialist who works with biomechanics and the body. Our discussion revolves around the importance of understanding and working with the body to improve overall well-being, performance, and life experience. Tom emphasises the interconnectedness of physical, mental, and emotional aspects, and how addressing issues in one area can positively impact other areas.

There are some fantastic things to learn - key points below!

Key Points:

1. Understanding the schema of the body and knowing where the joints are located is crucial for proper movement and function.

2. Applying the right amount of tension in the body is necessary for optimal performance and avoiding excessive strain or injury.

3. Addressing physical pain or limitations can also alleviate stress and improve emotional well-being.

4. Engaging in movements and exercises that complement the body's natural functions and evolutionary design can enhance overall health and vitality.

5. Managing energy levels through proper sleep, posture, and mindfulness practices is essential for overall well-being.

6. Developing awareness of energy mismanagement and addressing it can help optimise energy utilisation.

Show Notes:

0:00 - Introduction to Tom Waldron and the topic of working with the body.

3:00 - Tom's approach to understanding a client's goals and needs.

5:00 - The interconnectedness of physical, mental, and emotional well-being.

7:00 - Understanding and addressing psychosomatic aspects of pain.

9:00 - Giving clients the experience of what they want and teaching them how to reproduce it.

12:00 - The importance of knowing where the hip joints are located for proper movement.

16:00 - Working with forces and tension in the body.

21:00 - The influence of thoughts and visualization on physical movements.

24:00 - Addressing lower back pain by modifying movements and increasing tolerance.

28:00 - Challenging the orthodoxy of diminished health and mobility with age.

33:00 - Motivating clients by highlighting the undesirable consequences of inaction.

37:00 - The privilege of having an able body and the ability to move.

41:00 - Focusing on the body's natural functions, such as walking and throwing.

45:00 - Energy management and minimizing energy leakage through optimal alignment.

48:00 - The importance of sleep and rest for energy management and injury prevention.

Get in touch with Sal

If this episode has caught your attention and you wish to learn more, then please contact me. I offer a free 20 min call where we can discuss a challenge your facing and how I may be able to help you.

Get in touch with Tom

Tom how's the range of fascinating workshops and trainings. Please let Tom know you've listened to this episode with me. You can contact him here.

Sometimes, you never have those moments where you just realise,

2

"Oh, being alive is really weird."

3

Like you almost catch yourself, because

you get busy in your day, and you're

4

like, "I don't do taxes, whatever."

5

Like you're late for something.

6

You just get sucked into just

like the, for lack of a better

7

word, I guess the rat race.

8

Sal Jefferies: So if we don't know where

our body is, how do we know where we are?

9

It's such a big thing with

the embodied movement, which I

10

really push embodied cognition.

11

A brain does not function inside a

black skull, dark, nothing going on,

12

without inputs from the body, from

the sense receptors, from everything

13

that's going on in the environment.

14

Our body is actually feeding up

to our brain, but our experience

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of self, do I move well?

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Do I feel creaky?

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Do I say, "Oh, my back's killing me?"

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Or do I walk with a sense

of power in my posture?

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And I love what you said there is if

you don't know the schema of your body,

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whether you're deadlifting or trying to be

more confident, you're in trouble because

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you don't know where the right things are.

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How do we manage tension or apply

tension appropriately in your experience?

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Tom Waldron: Yeah, I think

there's two questions.

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There's one is how do we do that?

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And then how do we apply it?

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So I think like one thing that I do

all the time now, which I've just found

27

to be the most effective approach is

give someone the experience of what

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they want and then teach them how they

can keep or reproduce that experience.

29

I think the more you learn about,

again, the body, and it's funny

30

how these things transcend culture.

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We know, for example, that your

postural system is governed by your

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serotonergic system, and you can trace

that system, a third of a billion

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years back in the past, because you

can look at certain animals and you can

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see how that same, neurophysiological

relationship governs their posture and

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also governs the level of serotonin.

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Sal Jefferies: What do you see in a body

that you're also seeing in their life?

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Hello and welcome.

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Today I'm joined by my guest, Tom

Waldron, who is a movement specialist.

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He works with biomechanics and

all cool things with the body.

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Now this is really interesting because

Tom shares an interest in the body like

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I do, but in a much more, detailed way.

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But we were talking recently and I was

absolutely intrigued with his work about

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how working with the body changes how we

experience life and do things in life.

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We're going to get into this.

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A big thing is if you've got a lot

of challenges going on mentally,

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getting into the body is going to be

a massive Massive benefit for you.

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So we shall unpack.

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Tom, welcome to the show.

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It's good to see you, mate.

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Tom Waldron: Thanks for

having me Sam, thank you.

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Sal Jefferies: Cool.

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Okay.

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So give us a little context around what

do you do that's different with people

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that that's movement orientated that

really helps them connect with their body?

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Tom Waldron: I would say probably

with that the main thing, and you

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could even say this is the difference

between potentially an instructor and

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a coach, is just initially finding

out why the person has come to see

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you in the first place, and that's

definitely not unique to me by any means.

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A good therapist will do that, or a

good clinician will do that, but I

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suppose the first thing is finding out

what that person's goals are, because

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that's the most important thing, and

then Respectfully, with my background,

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if I feel like, you know what, you would

benefit from this a bit more, or benefit

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from this a bit more, we can have

that discussion and then move forward,

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with some interventions that would help

with that as well, if that makes sense.

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a bit of what they want, and then a

bit of what I think they also need.

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Sal Jefferies: Yeah, really nice.

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That's a nice way of kind of

meeting the middle, isn't it?

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figuring out what that person's

requirements are, what their pain points

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are, and understanding their version

of the world, plus your, knowledge

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overlaying, which is, really, really nice.

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It's so interesting with that body stuff.

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I'm an S& C trainer as well now, as a

psychotherapist, as a mindset coach, and

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the more I work with my own physiology,

my own body, and the more I work with

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other people's, the more I see that,

If we are looking at human performance,

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if we're looking at mental being and

emotional well being, we really,

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really want to be including the body.

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And it's often been a

secondary thing, hasn't it?

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That I'll do a workout after

work or I'm too busy to exercise.

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and I would say, actually, there's so

much data and knowledge now that says

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if you're not exercising, if you're

not physically well, Your business

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isn't going to go well, your health is

probably going to be damaged in some

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way and your relationships are impacted.

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So it has this whole kind of

cascade of influence, doesn't it?

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Whether it's negative or positive.

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Now, what are you seeing when

someone comes to you with a problem?

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I can only imagine they come Oh, I've got

a sore shoulder or my back's killing me.

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one of the classics.

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What do you see in a body that

you're also seeing in their life?

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What do you notice in those parallels?

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Tom Waldron: Yeah, I think one of the

things can definitely be, let's say if

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we just talk about pain for a moment.

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I think at this point, if you're not

addressing any psychosomatic or lifestyle

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aspects to someone's pain problem, it

doesn't really matter where the pain

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actually is, then you're probably

on some level not finishing the job.

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So I think, one thing that's always

good is you're always trying to

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maintain some form of retention.

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motivation with people.

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So obviously if someone comes in

with a painful shoulder, one of the

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first things you want to do is try

and reduce or minimise the symptoms.

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So they get what they want, and then

along the way you also might help

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them with what they need to make

those positive changes longer lasting.

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So for example, I guess a more

obvious example, from my experience,

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has been lower back pain.

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so one of, probably the second or

third question I'll ask someone

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these days is, how's your sleep?

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These days, how are you sleeping?

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So quality of sleep and also quantity.

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I'm definitely not a sleep expert.

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I've listened to people

who are sleep experts.

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but there's definitely enough,

research to convince me that

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yeah, if someone is undersleep.

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That's going to really ramp up,

their amygdala and that's going to

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increase their pain sensitivity.

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Not that they're sensitive as

a person, just literally the

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sensitivity of the nervous system.

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And so addressing things like

rest is also really important.

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I used to say tension, I'm always

changing my, dialogue around tension.

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I used to think tension was bad.

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but as tension means many things.

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You can talk about the tension of the

connective tissue, or you can talk

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about literal, psychological tension.

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And so I think of that, maybe

physiologically, we're also fine

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tuning the tension on a level.

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whether that's actually reducing or

increasing tension in certain areas.

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and I think that does have, a direct

influence on, their psychology as well,

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how they feel about their back afterwards.

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Sal Jefferies: yeah,

that's cool, isn't it?

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I understand about tensional forces,

having, taught yoga for many years,

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got into, different gyms, learned

about, heavy lifting, learning about

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torque, as in T O R Q U E, so how to

create torque in the body and tension.

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And tensional forces in

the body are appropriate.

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So if you are going to do a deadlift

and you've got no core activation, no

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glutes really working, you're probably

going to load your erectors, erectors,

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you're going to damage your lower

back, you're going to have problems.

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Application of tension, I think it's

really skillful, both in the gym, in

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the boardroom, and perhaps in life,

because if we aren't reflexive enough,

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then we can either be a soft, gentle

individual, or we're too hard and too

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edgy, and I find this, way of being

in, the 21st century, that if we are

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able to flex, we've got really good

things and skills available to us.

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there's a time to stand up to someone

and there's a time to be gentle

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and we want to know where and how.

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And I think the body is such a good

physical experience of this, am I holding

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tension in my shoulders because I'm just

stressed to hell with what's going on?

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Or am I creating tension in

my chest muscles because I'm

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about to do a chest press?

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So I think this conscious,

deliberate application of

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tension is a really skillful arm.

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Then the question goes,

how does a person do that?

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People say to me, so how do we do that?

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that's always the figure out question.

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So how do people, how do our bodies, how

do we manage tension or apply tension

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appropriately in your experience?

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Tom Waldron: Yeah, I think

there's two questions.

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There's one is how do we do that?

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and then how do we apply it?

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So I think like one thing that I do

all the time now, which I've just found

157

to be the most effective approach is

give someone the experience of what

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they want and then teach them how they

can keep or reproduce that experience.

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So I think when I'm back in the day, I

would very much be like, okay, so it's

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this and this and you explain the thing.

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And it might be right, it probably was

wrong sometimes as well, but the idea

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is it doesn't really mean anything

unless someone has a literal experience

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in their nervous system of what it

feels like, for example, to have a

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quote unquote tension free shoulder.

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and then you can give them the, the steps

on how they can recreate that experience.

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So it's funny, again, language is

interesting, how we use language.

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So I, obviously, I even just

said tension free shoulder.

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And in reality, you're never tension

free, so the collagen fibres that are

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in the matrix of certain connective

tissues, they're always under tension.

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Even if you're quote unquote relaxed,

there's still a level of tension

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there, they're never under slack.

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So if you want to actually have the

experience of not feeling tension, it's

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about fine tuning the right level of

tension for your body in that moment.

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And so for example, that would

be, then how would you get to

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the practical aspect of that?

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sometimes people have these preconceived

ideas that oh, before I do this

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movement, I have to pre activate

this muscle or, when I'm doing

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the movement, I have to keep these

muscles short and these ones long.

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And the issue of that is obviously

if you're going to move the

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body, things have to change.

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So you have to have different

neurological impulses.

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You need to have different, literally

different levels of tension going

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through your connective tissue.

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And then you have different, muscle,

cells going on and off as well.

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I think on that level it's

also addressing, are there any

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preconceived ideas about the body

that this person might have, either

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if they're also a professional and

they've been taught a certain way.

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or if they've gone to certain

classes and they've just been taught,

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you can't lift your leg until you

brace your core first, for example.

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And I think, they're all, they're

not bad things, you're not going to

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break someone if you teach them that.

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but, you might be reinforcing patterns

of excessive tension over time.

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to, then they get to the point in

present day where they feel like they

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can't move their shoulder a certain way.

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or they can, but it just

feels uncomfortable.

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my big thing is always starting with

what's the experience you want, and

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then it's doing a few, sometimes

it's essentially like little magic

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tricks to give them that experience.

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that experience is inherently always going

to be temporary, because most short term

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change is neurologically driven anyway.

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But then how can you give someone

the tools so then they can build that

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experience for themselves long term?

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Does, am I making sense?

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Or am I just rambling?

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Sal Jefferies: that's really, really good.

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I'm quite metaphorically driven.

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My mind sees things in

metaphors, and I'm imagining, a

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violinist, or a guitar player.

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Now, I've never played

either, but I've seen them.

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And they're really cool

when they're strung nicely.

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So I can imagine, looking at the

strings of a guitar or a violin,

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and if they are loose, you try and

pluck them, there's going to make no

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sound, or it's going to be terrible.

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Or if they're too tight, you

pluck them and they could break.

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Same with a tennis racket, if that's

a better metaphor for someone,

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floppy strings, the ball is going

to be all over the place, too hard

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and you might get too much bounce.

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in terms of tensional forces, I love what

you've said there, create the experience

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that you want, and I'm interested to

get an example of that in a second,

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but then give them the tools, because

if we, to keep it very physiological

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for this moment, in the S& C, domain.

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There is a, still a large contingent

that you've really braced your core

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very strongly, say doing a heavy

score or heavy deadlift or pushing

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a heavy sled, something like that.

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And I know some people in the other

movement field who challenged that.

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They don't say you don't brace your core,

but they say you're relaxed under tension.

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And there are these opposing

in a way ideologies.

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But if we think about practical,

you don't generally tense your

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body to lift something up.

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You simply lift it up.

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So I guess the sweet spot is how

do we get to a place where it's

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so unconsciously Elegant that our

body works without becoming unsafe.

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So can you gimme an example?

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Let's take a deadlift.

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So any one of my listeners who goes

to the gym and picks some stuff up

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in a deadlift move, we all know him.

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You want to protect your back,

you want to hinge nicely.

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How might you help that person have

a better experience rather than, err

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locked on tension or they're too floppy

and and potentially damage themselves?

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How could you take us through

that example of experience and

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then a tool to work with them?

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Tom Waldron: so that's a really

good, I like that exercise.

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So a really good way that I use for

myself and also for a lot of clients

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is So let's say the goal is, I want

to, pick that weight off the floor

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in whichever form they want to do it.

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Whether they want to hip hinge

more or they want to feel

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like they're just more stable.

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One of the first things I'll do is

literally give them an experience,

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which you can do very easily, of where

actually are your hip joints located.

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So in your body, where does the femur

head actually meet your ATA and it?

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And it doesn't mean you suddenly

got to go into this big anatomy

252

class and here's the thing and the

thing, and here are the ligaments.

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It's not so much that it's literally

just do you even know where your

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joints are located in your body?

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And the hip joints are normally a really

good example of that because even with

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professionals, if you ask them like,

take your index fingers and point on

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your body, where are your hip joints?

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People almost inevitably either point

to their ASISs, their hip bones, or they

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point to their greater trochanters, which

is either too high or too out to the side.

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And what's really interesting about

that is, when you ask someone a question

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like, again, where's your shoulder,

where's your spine, where's your hip

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joints, and then they point to where

they think it is, they're already giving

263

you a clue of what their body schema is.

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So it's like my perception of where my

thigh bone meets my pelvic bone is here,

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whether it's accurate or not accurate.

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So one of the first things I'll do,

it takes 30 seconds, is I'll just give

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them, and I don't even touch them, I can

tell them how to find their hip joints.

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And then once they've actually located,

oh, my hip joints are here, they're

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actually usually much more narrow

and central to the body than what I

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may have thought they were before.

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And then I'll get them just to move

their hip joints from that position.

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And for many people, if that's the

first time they've actually had a

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cognitive, clear understanding of, oh

wow, okay, my theme head's actually

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here, and that's the place I primarily

want to be moving from if I want

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to be picking, a bar off the floor.

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That, without me having to give any cues,

or any sort of instruction, it instantly

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changes how they organize themselves.

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One of the things that I'm really into,

and I'm not above in any way giving cues

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or giving clear instructions, but what

I just find really interesting is if

280

you give the brain, a clear, simplistic

sense of Oh, okay, here is said bone

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or said joint, it instantly organises

itself in a, quote unquote, better

282

way, in a more efficient way, or in the

way that person wants to be organised.

283

So then when they do the movement,

they're like, Oh, okay, cool.

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And then even then you can

still give cues afterwards.

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I can still say, Oh, imagine that

you're dropping your pelvis down

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onto a chair or anything like

that, some sort of external cue.

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But I always start with, let's just

change your experience of your body.

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And a good place to start is

fundamentally, if you don't know

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where a joint is, something simple

like a hip joint, how do you know

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if you're moving it properly or

even moving it potentially at all?

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Does that make

292

Sal Jefferies: It makes a lot of sense.

293

I love that.

294

Understanding the schema of the body.

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Yeah, where it is.

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and this is a thing I see in human

performance work, whether we're

297

in the physical domain or the

psychological emotional domain.

298

That if you don't know what's going

on, it's really hard to deal with

299

it because it's an abstraction.

300

Yeah, it's like I'm really stressed.

301

What does that even mean?

302

Or I'm struggling with my deadlift.

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What does that actually mean?

304

We need to get specific.

305

And we need to be accurate, because

if you're not deadlifting or hinging,

306

as of course the deadlift movement is,

from the right place, you'll hinge from

307

another place, which implicitly might

be a physiological or physical problem,

308

and, and I would also say psychological,

because, as I explained to you, Tom, and

309

all my regular listeners, there is such

a crossover between our thinking, feeling

310

self and our physical, moving self.

311

One is influencing the other all the time.

312

So if we don't know where our body

is, how do we know where we are?

313

It's, such a big thing with

the embodied movement, which I

314

really, push, embodied cognition.

315

A brain does not function inside a

black skull, dark, nothing going on,

316

without inputs from the body, from

the sense receptors, from everything

317

that's going on in the environment.

318

Our body is actually feeding up to our

brain, and then, this is a longer debate

319

about what the brain and mind is, but, but

our experience of self, do I move well?

320

Do I feel creaky?

321

do I say, Oh, my back's killing me?

322

Or do I walk with a sense

of power in my posture?

323

And I love what you said there is if

you don't know the schema of your body,

324

Whether you're deadlifting or trying to be

more confident, you're in trouble because

325

you don't know where the right things are.

326

So that's super, super helpful.

327

yeah, really helpful.

328

Thank you.

329

Tom Waldron: Was gonna

say of that as well.

330

it's almost because that was, that's

a really nice way of putting it, I

331

think like it's also fundamentally,

if you are, if you're helping

332

someone moving to move better.

333

It's just about really helping them

relate to the environment better.

334

So you're relating to the chair

better, you're relating to the

335

floor, you're relating to that

bar that you want to pick up.

336

So it's very much I've got this

physical thing, and it's made up of

337

many different types of tissues, and

the geometry changes all over the place.

338

But if I've just got a simple sense of

oh okay, this is a point, like again,

339

let's say the hip joint, this is a

point where there's lots of power.

340

And it's also a point

with lots of movement.

341

If I just have a little bit more of a

kinesthetic awareness of where that area

342

is, that, instantly just changes how

you relate to, one, that internal place,

343

being the hip joint, but also then the

external world, like just the floor, and

344

how you place your feet on the floor.

345

that for me has always been really

interesting, trying to almost teach

346

a little bit less sometimes, and

just be like, this is what your

347

brain needs to know, here's your

hip joint or here's your knee.

348

and then, does that change how

you position your body in space?

349

Sal Jefferies: Very nice.

350

Yeah.

351

a very good coaching approach, right?

352

To help the person generate

the understanding from within.

353

And when we generate learning

from within, it's implicit.

354

we own it.

355

It's, it's a great way.

356

I love that.

357

It's such a, great, definition.

358

Now we were speaking a little bit before

the show about forces and I really

359

want to get your knowledge on this.

360

forces are at play everywhere.

361

And you explained to me, there's

of course, there's gravity.

362

there is, there's all kinds

of physiological forces

363

and we'll dig into that.

364

but of course, Tom, there are

forces in life and there's pressure.

365

There is stresses.

366

There are social challenges.

367

There's financial challenges.

368

And if we want to be a well

functioning human being, We want

369

to relate to those forces as well,

because they're not going to go away.

370

So how do we relate to them?

371

How do we work with them?

372

Now, perhaps you can give me some of your

understanding about working with forces,

373

both from the body and then how that

plays out into that person's experience.

374

how do you work with that?

375

Can you say some more?

376

Tom Waldron: Yeah, I think it's

always just good to know, what are

377

the forces in the first place, and

then from there, sometimes those

378

answers almost become obvious.

379

so you have four main forces of movement,

which would be gravity, the weight of your

380

body, momentum, so how fast you're moving

your body, and then it's the reaction

381

from the ground, so ground reaction force.

382

So whether you're a yogi, a Pilates

teacher, gyrotonic instructor,

383

runner, it's non negotiable.

384

Those are the four forces that you

deal with for the rest of your life.

385

So how well you deal with those

forces on a fundamental level dictates

386

the experience of your whole life.

387

So I would say, it's interesting that

you think of, makes up, a human's life.

388

You can say many things, but I think

one of the main components is, you're

389

always standing, or you're almost

always standing, you're sitting,

390

you're breathing, and you're thinking.

391

how are you managing those experiences?

392

when you stand, can you organize yourself

in a way which is unique to your own body?

393

It's not to say there's, here's a

cookie cutter way of one should stand.

394

But for your own, just, physiological

makeup, can you stand in a way where

395

you're actually managing those four

forces, in a way that feels good

396

to you or feels comfortable to you?

397

and then even to the sense of let's

say, more the thinking, so we know

398

that, for example, the thoughts in your

head literally have a physiological,

399

influence on your body, so we know

very clearly now, for example, that if

400

you are visualizing a movement, very

similar parts of the brain become active,

401

as if you were doing that movement.

402

and then you even get a little bit

of a trickle down effect, where you

403

get neurological womps going into

like certain muscle fibers, and as

404

if you were doing that movement.

405

So you literally have this neurological

crossover between what you do, and also

406

how you think or how you visualize things.

407

So I think on a level, it's been my

experience that, how you navigate

408

through the world, so how gracefully

or non gracefully you deal with

409

those forces, that has a huge impact

on how you deal with social aspects

410

or, again, interpersonal things or

relationships, as well, for sure.

411

It's been my experience

doing it definitely.

412

And it's been, it's been fun to

also get similar sorts of feedback

413

from clients without prompting them.

414

where I think I was saying to you before

the podcast, let's say you help someone

415

with their back pain, sometimes helping

someone with their back pain is things

416

like, can we be, I'm not going to teach

them about the forces necessarily, but can

417

we move you in a way and maybe strengthen

certain things in a way so you're just

418

managing the forces of movement better?

419

And then that can totally translate

into them being more socially

420

comfortable at going to certain

social functions, for example.

421

and I do think those

bridges are quite connected.

422

You made

423

Sal Jefferies: I see that too.

424

Certainly if someone steps into my

coaching space, which is largely a

425

conversation, a psychological, let's

say working domain, but I'll always

426

reference the body, what's going

on with your body as you say this.

427

So we'll have an embodied

connection around this.

428

And what intrigues me is about movement.

429

I've often sat with a coffee

and just watch people go by.

430

I find it absolutely intriguing.

431

You can read a lot without mind reading

or assumptions, but you can read a lot.

432

There's a lot of information available

if you're quiet and you observe.

433

And it might be, how's someone's gait?

434

How are they moving?

435

Where's their eye liner?

436

Are they looking down

or are they looking up?

437

And these things say a lot

about where that person's at.

438

And I know for me, it's that I learned

this years ago, but Every time I'm

439

very much buried in thinking, binge

thinking, I call it, I'll be looking down.

440

I'll be slightly collapsing

the thoracic area.

441

I'll be slightly loading my lower back.

442

I just won't be walking very well.

443

And as soon as I can feel that, that

roll across the foot and the lift in

444

my core, an eye line forward or up,

I'm in a much more open mind space.

445

And this really intrigues me.

446

This, posture is power.

447

I learned this many years ago in yoga.

448

I learned this from being a

photographer as one of my other careers.

449

I did how we move, how we stand is

experienced by us and the other.

450

So if we want to be functioning well,

the best that we can be and we're

451

not attending to these forces and to

the way we relate to these forces.

452

Both A, that's a problem and,

b, that, that's an opportunity.

453

problems and opportunities go together.

454

It depends what you're doing about them,

. So if I was to come to you, Tom, I'm

455

like, okay, all my lower back's really

tricky and I've got a lot of stresses

456

going on right now, and I'm a bit wonky.

457

you've already said you kind of

ask questions, which is great.

458

You figure out what's that person

wants, but let's say I said to you,

459

listen, I just want to feel good.

460

I want to get rid of this achy back.

461

I'd like to be a little

less stressed, please.

462

That'd be great if you

know how to do that.

463

What would you do that's in the

physical domain in your toolbox that

464

would treat that kind of challenge?

465

Which you would know not only treats

the quote unquote back problem and the

466

stress level but would have a direct

effect on that person's experience

467

Emotionally and psychologically as well

468

Tom Waldron: Yeah, absolutely, to keep

it to lower back pain, the first thing,

469

once they've been clinically cleared the

first thing I would be checking is, I

470

would ask them, can you either show me, or

can you explain to me, so what movements

471

Postures or just daily life activities

has your lower back affected basically.

472

So what, what, can you currently

not do or not do at all?

473

and normally they can like demonstrate

on a level like, whether it's bending

474

forward or if it's picking up like

their three year old, And then it's

475

just kind of like noticing that, like

just, first of all, just the external.

476

Okay, they start, they suffer with maybe

squatting or they, they have an issue with

477

bending to the left or whatever it is.

478

And then when they get more into the

daily life things, like normally it's

479

a lot of guys who may not be able to

play with a three year old for very long

480

because they simply can't bend down and

stay in that position for a long time.

481

So already there's an emotional

component there for sure.

482

Whether they're aware of it or not,

that's like really, really powerful.

483

So my first point of call is,

let's find a way for you to do

484

those movements where either we're

minimizing the level of discomfort,

485

Or hopefully even quite initially,

there's not any discomfort there.

486

and the reason why we're doing that from

my perspective, one is it's to keep that

487

person having their autonomy so they can

actually still live the life they wanna

488

live and they're not feeling like they're

broken or they constantly do things.

489

and it's also, exposing the body to

similar movements that they currently

490

can't do for whatever reason.

491

but finding a way to work around

it and that normally calms down.

492

if they have any stress around

it, that normally calms down

493

their stress levels too.

494

So if they can't bend forward and play

with their toddler just yet, maybe

495

they can bend down 75 percent of the

way and if we just play with where

496

the legs are positioned, maybe the

leg is going to be a bit more further

497

forward than it originally was, so

you've got to bend your spine forward

498

as far, then they can play with their

kid for a bit longer, for example.

499

so rather than trying to take away

movements or take away exercises, Just

500

reverse engineer it and modify it to

the point where they can manage it.

501

And then over time, it's building

them back up again so that they can

502

actually manage those positions.

503

So I guess just to summarize, first

thing is, what can you not do?

504

okay, cool, let's now modify that so

you can do it to a certain degree.

505

and then around that, looking at

the movements that they showed,

506

okay, let's now increase your

tolerance in those positions.

507

So as you were saying, if it is, let's

say, they can't bend their spine forward

508

because that starts to hurt, that

could be because they simply aren't

509

strong enough in spinal flexion for the

loads they're currently dealing with.

510

So let's do some spinal flexion, but

let's just maybe do it in a different

511

way, until they can do it in the

way they couldn't do it before.

512

Does that make

513

Sal Jefferies: It makes a lot of sense.

514

It's really really nice, isn't it?

515

because there's a tendency to

think if I have an injury or have

516

a pain, I won't go there You know,

I won't bend over or I won't do the

517

movement that causes me discomfort.

518

And yet what you're suggesting there

is let's understand that better.

519

Let's have a different

relationship to that.

520

Let's perhaps get an experience

of that in a slightly different

521

version or different, an amount.

522

And what I hear there is you're actually

giving someone back freedom, physical

523

freedom to move or maybe to play with a

kid or whatever it is, but you're giving

524

that person back autonomy as opposed

to, a disability, which obviously it's a

525

strong word and we care for how we use it.

526

But if you're unable to do

something, you start to become.

527

Moving towards disability and

it's something which intrigues me.

528

as someone of some mature years now,

as I look to the future and you look

529

to the stats like, mm, muscle loss, 3

percent per year, muscle power loss,

530

3 percent and you look at the stats

generally and think, okay, if I don't

531

stay active and I am super active and

I preach this, I'm like, if you're

532

40 plus, you need to be training.

533

And I've had people say

to me, I'm not an athlete.

534

I'm like, yeah, but you need to

be because life demands us to be

535

an athlete because we have chairs.

536

If we're knowledge workers, we sit

at chairs, we sit at computers and we

537

might drive or take a bus or whatever.

538

We are so damn sedentary now.

539

Just lifestyle is so sedentary

that if we don't do something to

540

arrest that sedentary dynamic,

then we're going to have problems.

541

And of course, that's

something which I do myself.

542

And I also aim to get

clients to do more and more.

543

As we're getting towards a more mature

year, there used to be the sentiment that

544

you should slow it down, didn't there,

just take it easy, I remember one of

545

my clients, he was a ex kickboxer and

then he came to my yoga practice and

546

it's funny because I went from yoga and

I've got into boxing now, I've gone the

547

other way, I've gone the extreme stuff.

548

But there is a prevailing world view,

certainly in this, in our country or in

549

the West, that as we age, we have this

certain expectation of less mobility,

550

less strength, probably diminished

health, and all these qualities.

551

Now, while it's true to some degree

that the body will diminish slowly

552

over time if it's kept well, I'm really

interested in challenging this orthodoxy.

553

about saying to people, no,

you can relearn a movement

554

pattern at 45 years old.

555

You can become a strong

woman or strong man at 57.

556

It's all there.

557

But how would you treat that?

558

Let's say I come to you, Tom, and I'm

like, yes, and I've seen your stuff.

559

You sound so cool.

560

I'm ready.

561

I'm 51 or 52 now.

562

I'm 52.

563

I want to be an athlete.

564

Help me.

565

I saw Sal.

566

He said, go to see you.

567

What would you do?

568

How would you help a person

who's roughly midlife saying.

569

Let's get you moving well.

570

So you're functioning well

physiologically, you'll function

571

well in your movement and you'll

function well in your health.

572

What would you do?

573

I know I've thrown actually a massive

challenge at you, but I'm really

574

intrigued to how you might take that

575

on.

576

Tom Waldron: Well, it's interesting, so I,

I would say prob probably temperamentally,

577

I'm a relatively optimistic person.

578

However, I do believe that negative

emotion can be much more powerful

579

if used in a certain context.

580

In, in this sort of situation.

581

So for example, we know that if you

put a mouse on a little treadmill and

582

you have the smell of cheese at the end

of the treadmill, the mice is, or the

583

mouse is going to be motivated to run

on the treadmill faster to get the food.

584

Basically.

585

However, if you put the, the smell of

a cat behind them, they run much faster

586

than if they were to get the cheese

because it's more the idea of, I'd rather

587

they're more motivated to not get eaten.

588

So even though, it is very motivational

to have, obviously, goals, end state

589

goals, process goals, like you know where

you want to be going, so I think mapping

590

out what you want is important, but I

actually think, to be real, sometimes

591

it's really good to just spend an hour

fully articulating, what would be like

592

your own version of hell in five years.

593

And actually, no, so

what would it be like?

594

So I would look like this, or I'd

feel this way, or this would happen.

595

and you go through that

as a bit of a process.

596

if the next five years went

terribly, what would that look like?

597

And then that gives you the blueprint

of I want to go in the opposite

598

direction of that, basically.

599

And I think that's when you

can sometimes motivate people.

600

It's if you want to have a body That

wears down really fast, you're going

601

to get really ill, you always feel like

crap, you can't do anything, and actually

602

you're kind of like a bit of a bummer to

hang out with because you don't really

603

want to do anything and you can't anyway.

604

And I just think sometimes articulating

the reality of that, that can motivate

605

someone to be like, you know what, okay,

that's, so what do I do to avoid that?

606

And it's okay, walking's really

good, strength training's really

607

good, flexibility, maybe, whatever,

just basically, as long as you do

608

strength training, actually you're

going to get more flexible anyway.

609

even though it starts negative, that

kind of gets the fire going, and I also

610

think, it's also, like you were saying,

that the preconceived ideas that you're

611

meant to be feeling this way at this

age, or you're meant to be looking this

612

way at this age, or, you shouldn't be

doing that at this time in your life or

613

whatever, I think, one of the ways you

can minimize those negative beliefs, which

614

aren't even accurate in the first place,

Is people believe they have to like,

615

work out seven times a week and they've

gotta do like a 90 minute session and

616

they've gotta do this, this, and that.

617

When in reality for, if someone does

like a workout session three times

618

a week for 45 minutes and they're

doing like, let's say a strength

619

program, the benefits are non-linear.

620

they're gonna keep getting better

and better and better as long as the

621

program is progressing with them.

622

And it doesn't have to be like these,

seven hours a week slog basically.

623

So I think it's also realizing the

bar can be set quite low for success.

624

But also maybe know where you could go if

you never even started in the first place.

625

Does that make sense?

626

Sal Jefferies: does.

627

I love that.

628

I really love that.

629

Such a, I'm quite happy at staring into

the abyss sometimes to motivate me.

630

And as we certainly I know from

brain science that we are, the

631

brain is a prediction system.

632

Andy Clark, Professor Andy Clark talks

about this, the predictive brain,

633

that the brain is always predicting.

634

And the first thing it's always

looking for, or brain slash

635

nervous system, is threat.

636

We are a threat detection system first

and foremost, and when the threat's out of

637

the way then we can be socially engaged.

638

What we call dorsal vagal on

the, in the nervous system.

639

There are two types.

640

So I come across away from meta patterns.

641

They're called and toward meta patterns.

642

So overarching thinking

styles for peoples.

643

I think both are really powerful.

644

I think let's look how

bad it could really be.

645

Look at this.

646

Look, actually, if you don't

do something, this is where

647

your life is going to end up.

648

And that's not a good look.

649

And this is where it could be.

650

And then you got that.

651

And what I'm feeling

there's tension, right?

652

That that creates tension.

653

And you spoke about tensional forces

in the body and I'm interested

654

in that tensional forces in,

motivation or let's say compulsion.

655

around if you can notice these two things

that might create the right kind of

656

tension, but it's, yeah, I love that.

657

I would be listening to you half

day, but like, yeah, totally.

658

I know I don't want to be in five

years, and I have an autoimmune

659

condition, so I know what it's like

to be down and out, to be broken by

660

them, and I, thankfully, I'm in pretty

good shape, and I have to be careful.

661

There are certain things I need to do

and not do, but I know having health

662

taken away from you is Suffering.

663

Pure suffering.

664

And I don't wish it on anyone, and I

certainly don't want it for myself.

665

But that's why I do what I do.

666

It's one of the big motivations, because

I know what suffering feels like.

667

And I don't want that.

668

Because people say to me, Tom, they're

like, Wow, you're so motivated.

669

You train every day, you do this.

670

I'm like, yeah, but I see it as play.

671

And I also see it as privilege,

because I know when I haven't

672

been able to even stand up.

673

I can't even stand up.

674

So when I can stand up, I'm never not

grateful for that, which I don't know, if

675

someone's had a health issue, maybe they

relate to that, but maybe if you haven't,

676

it could be more, more challenging.

677

Yeah,

678

Tom Waldron: think it's a, I really

believe it's a privilege to be able to

679

have your autonomy, like truly, my first

ever client, ever, ever, ever, ever, was

680

a 13 year old boy, and I'm still, friends

with him now, he's probably 27 now or

681

something, but anyway, he had cerebral

palsy, he was born with cerebral palsy,

682

and so he couldn't walk, and I was working

with him because he was having some

683

surgeries at the time, and my job, I mean

I barely knew anything at this point,

684

but my job was to come in for two hours

a day, and, And just do some stretches

685

and it was really, really positive.

686

But I remember, I was probably like

18 at the time, I was really young.

687

And I remember just being in bed one

night, it was probably quite early on

688

when I was working with this, young guy.

689

And I remember just being like, at any

point, if I want to go to the toilet,

690

I can just, get up and go to the loo.

691

Or like glass of water, man,

I really just spent like a few

692

minutes in like darkness, like in my

bedroom, just thinking about this.

693

And then, because it was, the first

time in my life I'd been around someone.

694

who was disabled, physically

disabled, basically.

695

And it was really, it was almost like

a light bulb moment went off, where I

696

was just like, it is a genuine privilege

to be able to just even like meme

697

gesture with my hand as I'm talking.

698

And I think sometimes you never have

those moments where you just realise,

699

Oh, being alive is really weird.

700

Like you almost catch yourself, because

you get busy in your day, and you're

701

like, I don't do taxes, whatever,

like you're late for something.

702

You just get sucked into just

like the, for lack of a better

703

word, I guess the rat race.

704

And then you have those

moments where you're like, it's

705

really weird that I'm alive.

706

and it's and this is gonna, and

it's 80 years of, it's just like,

707

as soon as I have those moments

I just get quite introspective.

708

But I just think also it's really lucky

to, one, be alive, but also you're

709

alive with a body that actually is

able to respond to like, your thinking.

710

And just, I sometimes have these funny

debates with friends who, I might

711

say that to them and they're just

like, What are you on about, mate?

712

Of course you can move.

713

they think it's ridiculous that

I'm just grateful on that level

714

that you're able to move your body.

715

But I think maybe if you've been

around that a little bit, you've

716

been around people that don't have

that and they weren't even born with

717

that opportunity in the first place.

718

It's just, it's almost and I

think as well, talking to older

719

men, guys in their 70s and 80s.

720

who are still really fit and

active, but they can sometimes

721

say still bloody, it's harder now.

722

And I just think it's good

to keep it if you've got it,

723

Sal Jefferies: yeah, absolutely.

724

a phrase came to my

mind a little while ago.

725

it's a bit of the Cartesian debate,

but we don't live in a body.

726

We live through a body.

727

So that means if your whole experience

of life is mediated through your

728

senses, through your tissues, through

your fascia, up through the nervous

729

system, into the brain, into the, to

the idea of like, how am I doing today?

730

How am I feeling?

731

How am I moving?

732

How am I working?

733

Then I think we are missing the absolute

building blocks of the constituent of

734

like how our experience actually is.

735

So we could go deep and philosophical,

which is where I like to hang out, but

736

I'm going to bring it back on point

because so for our listeners, we've really

737

checked in with some important stuff.

738

Understanding forces, understanding

tension, understanding that

739

relationship between your body and

really knowing where things are.

740

Sounds, that's just such

fundamental, and clear advice.

741

It's brilliant, Tom.

742

It's really brilliant.

743

I would like to capture this into Some

of the perhaps the pillars or the key

744

things you might say, here's what I would

impart if you want to function well, what

745

might those pillars or guidance points be?

746

Tom Waldron: I would say just

know how the body functions.

747

so if you want to know okay, like

how do I, how do I function better?

748

You will, I think the, thing before that

is what is the function of this thing?

749

So if that makes any sense, so for

example, bring it back to practical again.

750

So what's the function of

your foot for it, let's say.

751

So your foot, to keep it simple, it

can be a very foundational stable

752

surface to help balance the whole body.

753

and then it can also be a narrow, rigid

lever that can propel you through space.

754

So on a level, and there's obviously many

functions like balance, proprioception,

755

but just on that basic mechanical

level, the function of the foot is

756

to give you a foundational surface,

and then it's to give you a much less

757

foundational surface in a few milliseconds

to push you away from the floor.

758

So if you want to have a functional foot,

make sure it can just do those two things.

759

And then to work it back a bit further,

so how does it do those two things?

760

you need to have a

pronated foot sometimes.

761

And then you need to have a supinated

foot, so just then do exercises that

762

complement the different movements that

create pronation and create supination.

763

And if you do that, you'll have a

functional For example, so I think it's

764

like just knowing what the function

of something is, you can already then

765

streamline, Oh, okay, that's, then that's

how I'm functional and I can do that.

766

And then obviously you can be more

specific, I think there's, in my mind,

767

the function has two definitions.

768

You have, the function of the body.

769

So what's the function of this organ,

like the spine, the rib cage, whatever.

770

And then can I base some of my exercises

around complementing those functions.

771

But then also you have personal functions.

772

for example, going back to the guy

earlier on who wants to play with

773

his kid and he wants to bend down.

774

That, that's a function.

775

So it's also then, and that might be then

more global, so then how do I get the

776

hips to move better, how do I get the

spine to move better, to, to accommodate

777

that function that person wants in their

personal life with their kid, for example.

778

So for me, it's always been that,

it just, it just goes back to, going

779

much more global now, like what's

the function of the human body.

780

one thing we're really, really

good at is walking, we're the

781

best walkers on the planet.

782

So why not just learn a little

bit about what creates walking?

783

Or like another one, if you wanna have

a better shoulder, if you want your

784

shoulder to feel just pain-free, stronger,

more flexible, better positioned.

785

why do you have a shoulder?

786

Your shoulder is basically a force

buffer between your spine and your hand.

787

So you can throw balls so you can,

or throw rocks or throw spears.

788

So where the best throwers on the planet?

789

So we know, for example, that

by the time you get to four.

790

A four year old homosapien,

human, is already a better thrower

791

than a fully grown chimpanzee.

792

So we're really designed

for throwing stuff.

793

So if that's like your evolution heritage,

walking, throwing, a bit of swimming,

794

we're aquatic as well, oddly enough, then

why not just do things on a regular basis

795

that you were designed to do anyway?

796

And that will probably go a long

way to improving your function.

797

Sal Jefferies: Yeah.

798

Really

799

Tom Waldron: Am I answering the

800

question?

801

Sal Jefferies: Yeah, it does.

802

Yeah.

803

I'm just, my mind's percolating that,

that principle and, and I trust,

804

those listening as well are doing

the same, but yeah, just in some

805

ways it's super practical, isn't it?

806

It's what is the function of my foot?

807

it's what does it actually do?

808

And, and if you've got back pain, is that

because you walk in a dysfunctional way?

809

And it could be for some people.

810

If, so we changed the

function of the foot.

811

Yeah.

812

and the global idea of, I want to

travel whilst walking, then we might

813

then release up the chain of events.

814

actually my position of my hips is

better now because my foot's better

815

and, and suddenly my lower back pain

is gone, which then also means that I'm

816

probably not miserable and it might not

interrupt my sleep and so on and so forth.

817

So yeah, they are called fractals.

818

I call them fractals.

819

You know what fractals

repeating patterns in nature.

820

We see them in the bronchiality of the

lungs, we see them in the leaves and

821

the trees, but I see like behavioral

fractals in people as well, like

822

the small pattern repeats into the

bigger, and whether that's in the

823

physical domain or psychological, but

the pattern repeats, whether that's

824

imbalance or incorrect tension or

misunderstanding, or even disconnection

825

from the body, which I think is the

biggest thing I see for some people,

826

that the thinking self And the somatic

self, the body self are out of out.

827

They're outta whack,

they're outta harmony.

828

And and I love what you said there right

at the early part of the show about get

829

someone to know where their hip bones

actually insert and they're gonna hinge

830

well, and of course I'm like, yeah,

that's a, that makes so much sense.

831

And, and I'm thinking, hmm, when

I was deadlifting the other day

832

was I paying attention to my hip?

833

So I'm redoing that, that deadlifts

are on my, schedule tomorrow.

834

So I should be paying attention

to the hip joint movement.

835

Tom Waldron: And it also, for

me, it becomes really fun.

836

I, like you, I really love anatomy.

837

I, I just really enjoy

the study of anatomy.

838

Not, not because I like to

remember abstract names of things.

839

It's because, I just feel like when I'm

learning anatomy, I'm learning about,

840

oh, this is, I've learned about myself.

841

oh, this is actually how I evolved.

842

That's why the hip bones over there.

843

That's why the sit bones over there.

844

Oh, okay.

845

And I just find, that gives me a

really deep appreciation of movement.

846

And, but then bringing it back

to the clients, it doesn't mean

847

that they've got to bloody know

every single anatomy detail.

848

But even, going back to the throwing idea,

I get my clients sometimes who I teach

849

online, I get them to get a ball, and

we're just practicing throwing the ball.

850

And we make it fun, you've got to

visualize your partner, and you're

851

trying to throw the ball at them, or,

just like a bullseye a hundred meters

852

away, and, but just that act of them

throwing is so good for their shoulder.

853

And as you say, if suddenly they're,

like, if they notice in their own body,

854

which is always the more powerful teaching

moment is if they notice, they're like,

855

you know what, my shoulder actually

doesn't feel like it's moving so well

856

on the right side than the left side.

857

It might be something to do, if

the head's really far forward,

858

that restricts shoulder movement.

859

And so then you can be like, you know

what, why don't you just try this

860

with your head, and then see if that

improves how your shoulder moves.

861

And then suddenly you've

indirectly taught someone how

862

the body's inherently connected.

863

and it's not to say that everyone should

have the same posture, or everyone

864

should look the same, not at all.

865

But, going back to almost this idea

of the tension of the neck, and how

866

the tension of the neck influences

the tension of the shoulder, you can

867

play with that relationship until

someone feels like they're in their

868

most optimal organisational alignment.

869

Sal Jefferies: Beautiful,

absolutely beautiful.

870

I'm going to summarize with, I had

an old Tai Chi master friend and they

871

used to, say about wasted energy.

872

So from the Eastern arts, and they

would look at a body composition and

873

position, and they might get someone to

move their upper shoulders a little bit,

874

move their pelvis, split their feet.

875

And they would talk about how

much energy is either wasted or

876

saved based on optimal alignment.

877

And as you rightly say, it's not,

you should look like this picture.

878

You should stand like this, but it should

be, do you feel balanced perhaps in the

879

foot joints, the pelvis and the lower

back, and all these kinds of positions.

880

And it's amazing because

energy is everything.

881

Metabolic energy, thinking energy,

oxygen, all energy is life.

882

It's basic quantum physics,

and we mostly know this.

883

And when anyone feels tired,

and I see this a lot, someone's

884

tired, exhausted, maybe burnt out.

885

You are not utilizing your energy

very well, and I think it's such

886

an interesting thing to go to

the physical energy as well.

887

Like, how do you organize your body, as

you've already beautifully alluded to?

888

And is that disorganized?

889

Are you essentially hemorrhaging energy

through tight shoulders, traps that

890

are overfiring, whatever that might be?

891

And does that bleed out

into the rest of your life?

892

Energy drains, it's called in S& C.

893

And I think it's such an important

thing that a lot of people aren't

894

looking at, and It is wasted energy.

895

I would like to get your last thoughts on

energy management because it's something

896

I talk about a lot with my people.

897

Rather than time management, energy

management, like going with biorhythms,

898

going with the natural sense.

899

How might you work with that?

900

Tom Waldron: Yeah, I'm just thinking

energy because it's obviously a

901

big thing, like the first thing

that comes to my head is sleep.

902

I think that's probably because

it's, I'm thinking about my

903

own energy management probably.

904

I just noticed that if I'm underslept,

it just throws everything out.

905

which I find interesting.

906

So I think, in terms of how well could

people energy manage, I'll just think

907

about that for a minute, I think, I

suppose my main domain, which I do

908

that in, would be in, in movement

itself, so like you say, like, how can

909

we better organise the ribs over the

pelvis, and how they rotate with each

910

other in walking, and again, another

way of saying energy management,

911

you could say is energy leakage, uh,

which is more of a biomechanical term,

912

if, if you're moving too much in the

coronal plane, Then you're wasting a

913

bit of energy in the coronal plane.

914

So can we can we minimize that?

915

So we, as you were saying, optimizing

their energy flow, and I think you

916

know, I work, I've not seen her

actually yet in a few months, but I'm

917

going to work with her again soon.

918

I have an energy coach.

919

she doesn't really call herself

an energy coach, but I can, I just

920

know the way I can explain it.

921

So I just call her an energy coach.

922

But, that's very much

working with energy, really.

923

So we're working with my own energy.

924

if there's any kind of energetic, like

areas that aren't letting go, which might

925

manifest in like an image in my head or

like an emotion or anything like that.

926

and a lot of that, to be

honest, is, is presence work.

927

a lot of that I've learned from like

Eckhart Tolle, which I'm a big fan of.

928

and so in terms of energy management,

sometimes it's just even noticing

929

where you might have mismanagement.

930

And even just that noticing, I, this

is, I'm out of my area of expertise

931

now, but from what I've learned from

my teachers is where even just by

932

noticing that energy, it can already

start to diminish if it's not managed

933

well, and then you can start to manage

it better just by being aware of it.

934

But I think on a practical level, for

me, it's a sleep these days, like making

935

sure that you have a relatively dark

room, actually getting eight hours,

936

rather than six and a half or five hours.

937

because we know as well, like even

with sleep, there's a fair bit of

938

research now correlating lack of

sleep to increase an injury risk.

939

and so that's a huge thing as well

with, how, again, how you move

940

your body and how you manage it.

941

Yeah.

942

Sal Jefferies: because it's a big topic.

943

But yes, it's, but I

think the basics remain.

944

You don't have to be a specialist

in sleep to know what good sleep

945

feels like and what disruptive

sleep feels like and its effects.

946

So yes, it just goes to reminding

that if you get the basics right,

947

the fundamentals You build your base,

most things above it don't fall down.

948

If you've got a terribly bad base like

physiologically, or sleep, or your

949

psychological base is, is all all over the

place, everything above it can crumble.

950

or often I talk about a core 'cause

I'm look at that if I'm an Eastern

951

principle from a center alk, if

your core is robust and strong.

952

Everything that anchors and gravitates

towards it will feel strong.

953

Whereas if you cause weak, whether that's

physical, whether or mental or emotional,

954

then you're going to have problems.

955

And, and I don't know many

people that like problems.

956

So, we're always trying to

overcome problems, right?

957

Tom Waldron: It's so funny, isn't it,

because sometimes, I've sometimes been

958

guilty of like calling these things woo

woo, and I do it with a bit of tongue

959

in cheek, I don't really mean it.

960

But it's funny because the more, I think

the more you learn about, again, the

961

body, and it's funny how, these things,

transcend culture, we know, for example,

962

that your postural system is governed

by your serotonergic system, and you can

963

trace that system, a third of a billion

years back in the past, because you

964

can look at certain animals and you can

see how that same, neurophysiological

965

relationship governs their posture and

also governs the level of serotonin.

966

And so these systems have, been

in place, they're older than

967

trees, they've been in place for a

really, really, really long time.

968

And I think, so it's it's just

fun to learn these things, and

969

it's almost like you're learning

certain principles as well.

970

and then being able to practically

implement that in a S& C class,

971

or if it's a Pilates class, or

whatever it is, an education forum.

972

I think it's just, on many

different levels, it's quite

973

a rewarding thing to learn.

974

Sal Jefferies: Yeah, absolutely.

975

Tom, I am delighted that

we got to speak today.

976

I'm better informed already.

977

I'm like, I learn, I'm so privileged that

I get to speak wonderful people like you.

978

And I always learn something,

which is why I do this.

979

And I trust my dear listeners that

you have learned not just some thing,

980

but many things around forces, around

the body, around perhaps just thinking

981

around the impact of the body and the

mind and how it all comes together.

982

So Tom, If you haven't, do what I do

with podcasts, hit replay, write notes.

983

Yeah, write notes, grab what

you need to know from this.

984

and as always you can hit me on

the socials, let me know what you

985

thought, if you've got questions

for myself or for Tom, do connect.

986

So there'll be links on the show notes

and on socials this is on, so do connect.

987

So Tom, thank you for your time, dear

listener, thank you for your time.

988

Until the next one, take care.