Listen to the song

• YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hickVDiW8k0 
• Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/6ZBeRXjadHvBk9VYSnoO0R 
• Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/you-dont-mess-around-with-jim/1674575644 
• Amazon - https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B0DZVD77DQ?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_MGVmgH42gWddvoDScPKQIAkC5&trackAsin=B0DZVFQ96F 

Key Takeaways

• “You Don’t Mess Around with Jim” is a story song that cleverly shifts from the crowd narrative of warning people away from a city boy bully to celebrating Slim, the country boy who overcomes
• Trist and Elaine delve into the musical and lyrical elements of the song, covering storytelling, orchestration, and usage of pop culture references
• In the mailbag portion, Trist and Elaine discuss creativity and whether or not it’s influenced by the time of day, or if it’s just a personal rhythm and discipline that must be mastered

About us

Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.

As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.

Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.

Elaine: Hey, Trist, what do we have this week?

Trist: Well, this week we have a really great songwriter who had two

Trist: number one hits.

Trist: I guess this is not the only time this has ever happened.

Trist: It's an odd phenomenon, but he had a number one hit during his

Trist: lifetime, and then a number one hit after he passed away.

Trist: (Mm.) I'm talking about Jim Croce.

Trist: He was a really cool songwriter

Trist: who died tragically in a plane

Trist: crash.

Trist: He actually had an album in the

Trist: can, as it were, an album got

Trist: released and then, kind of an

Trist: album track of his from an album

Trist: that he'd made when he was still

Trist: alive that was never intended to

Trist: be a single, "Time in a Bottle,"

Trist: seemed so poignant after his

Trist: passing that it was released as

Trist: a single and was a number one

Trist: hit, and the two number one hits

Trist: are not the focus of our song

Trist: listening today.

Elaine: Okay, (It was just random.

Trist: Cool information that I wanted you to have.

Elaine: I mean, it is kind of sad that he passed away so young.

Elaine: It sounds like, you know, he really didn't realize his full

Elaine: potential as a songwriter.

Trist: Yeah. And the last other little thing I'll add, now that we're

Trist: talking about things that have nothing to do with our song,

Trist: it's noted that apparently a letter that he had mailed to his

Trist: wife that was timed in such a way that she received it after

Trist: he passed away.

Trist: He actually said he wanted to give up the music industry.

Elaine: Mm.

Trist: So that's kind of an interesting

Trist: little tidbit that you can find,

Trist: uh, more info about if you want

Trist: to dig.

Trist: But that's not this song, and it's not the reason why I chose

Trist: this particular song.

Elaine: Okay, so so what are we listening to?

Trist: This is "You Don't Mess Around with Jim."

Trist: (Mm.) Did you know this one?

Elaine: Ah, not until you mentioned it to me.

Elaine: You did send me, um.

Elaine: And I did mess up his name.

Elaine: It is what?

Elaine: Croce.

Trist: Croce.

Elaine: Croce.

Elaine: Croce.

Trist: Oh, I might have said it like crochet, but I think.

Trist: Croce.

Elaine: Yeah. Croce. Okay. You're right.

Elaine: You know, you shared an album

Elaine: with me before, but I'm not

Elaine: convinced that it was on that

Elaine: album.

Elaine: So this was brand new to me, and

Elaine: definitely the first one that I

Elaine: listened to so deeply, because

Elaine: when you recommended the album

Elaine: to me, you know, I was listening

Elaine: to it as a whole and just

Elaine: listening for the vibe as

Elaine: opposed to really deeply

Elaine: listening to any of the

Elaine: individual songs.

Trist: Yeah. I really like his songs and his songwriting style.

Trist: On one hand, there's things that

Trist: are very, you know, not not deep

Trist: topics.

Trist: We're not changing the world talking about don't mess around

Trist: with Jim this big bully.

Trist: Um, yeah.

Elaine: Hey, hey.

Elaine: No spoilers.

Elaine: (Yet!) Haven't gotten there yet.

Elaine: (Yet!)

Trist: Yet!

Trist: Just the way that he puts things together.

Trist: Simple yet complex and well done.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: So with that, we are going to

Elaine: pause in just a moment to give

Elaine: you an opportunity to listen to

Elaine: the song.

Elaine: We'll drop the links to the song inside of the show notes.

Elaine: So we are going to ask you to pause and then hopefully return.

Elaine: But that being said, Trist, can

Elaine: you remind us about how we

Elaine: should be listening to this,

Elaine: song or any of the songs in our

Elaine: podcast?

Trist: Well, part of the mission here

Trist: is to have you be focusing on

Trist: the listening, not what we chirp

Trist: about, but to listen, really

Trist: listen.

Trist: And to me that involves just improving whatever you can.

Trist: again, I know you may be out on a walk.

Trist: On a run, maybe you're in your car, maybe you're about to take

Trist: a nap, and our dulcet tones put you to sleep.

Trist: I hope that's not the case.

Trist: anyway, you may not be in a

Trist: situation where you can do it,

Trist: but if you are in a situation

Trist: where you can improve your

Trist: listening environment, grab

Trist: those nicer headphones, put it

Trist: on the system at home, what have

Trist: you.

Trist: Please take the time to do so.

Trist: We're all about the listening.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: Okay, we'll see you in just a moment.

Elaine: And welcome back.

Elaine: Hey, you know, I have my opinions, Trist, but I am very

Elaine: curious about why you chose this particular song and why you

Elaine: thought it was special.

Trist: Well, I've just once again, as as we'll see as a theme.

Trist: It's just.

Trist: I just liked it.

Trist: Sometimes you don't need anything super particular.

Trist: And while we dig into some some musical things, some societal

Trist: things, some form, some analysis, some chords, some

Trist: lyrics, etc., sometimes it's just, oh, I don't know.

Trist: I just like this one.

Trist: And I wanted to remind everyone that it exists.

Trist: I think a lot of our listeners

Trist: probably have heard this one

Trist: before.

Trist: It just I don't know why.

Trist: It just came up and I thought

Trist: this would be a good one to talk

Trist: about.

Trist: I love a good story song.

Trist: I don't know if it's because I'm from Wyoming.

Trist: This isn't a country song.

Trist: That's not all the music that there is in Wyoming.

Trist: But I think of it from childhood.

Trist: I have a memory of, like in the

Trist: story, how the story changes, as

Trist: it progresses.

Trist: And I remember noticing it.

Trist: And as a kid, I didn't, even though I'm told I could always

Trist: sing all of the lyrics, I don't think I was ever really, uh,

Trist: understanding what they were.

Trist: And this was definitely a time

Trist: that, in the story, obviously

Trist: you've got, this bully Jim and

Trist: even the people around are like,

Trist: hey, you know, don't mess around

Trist: with Jim, you know, don't tug on

Trist: Superman's cape, which it's kind

Trist: of made its way into the pop

Trist: kind of vernacular, um, pop

Trist: culture.

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: At the time in the 70s.

Trist: So it's like a chorus of people, hey, everyone knows you don't

Trist: mess around with this guy.

Trist: (Yeah.) and then when slim does

Trist: take care of him and then they

Trist: sing, you don't mess around with

Trist: Slim.

Trist: I thought that was the coolest thing I ever heard.

Trist: You know, I was maybe nine, but whatever.

Trist: However old I was, I remember I noticed That this Slim guy took

Trist: care of Jim, and then they changed it to Slim in the song.

Trist: And I thought that was the coolest thing ever.

Elaine: Yeah, so I went through the

Elaine: third time before I noticed that

Elaine: and I realized, oh my goodness,

Elaine: something changed.

Elaine: Did I not hear Jim?

Elaine: Like, I, you know, I don't hear

Elaine: words very well... always, you

Elaine: know, when I'm listening to

Elaine: songs.

Elaine: So of course I looked up the lyrics and I realized, oh, it

Elaine: did move from Jim to Slim.

Elaine: And I went back and had to read all of the lyrics to really

Elaine: understand the mastery behind the songwriting there.

Trist: Yeah. Love it.

Elaine: Yeah. I also loved what you said about kind of the pop culture

Elaine: references, and I wrote down the ones that I realized were either

Elaine: just slang that I'd heard about, which I'm pretty sure was, just

Elaine: more generic slang, but also references to things like

Elaine: everyday pop culture references, thinking about, you know, what

Elaine: we're thinking about here in 2025 with like Labubu or

Elaine: whatever it is that we have in today's pop, um, thing.

Elaine: But, you know, as we take a look at Superman's cape, I saw the

Elaine: word Lone Ranger in there.

Elaine: and then drop-top Cadillac.

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: And I was like oh man.

Elaine: Like honestly like I never heard the I knew what a drop-top was,

Elaine: but I had to look it up just to be sure, because I'd always

Elaine: heard of it as a convertible.

Elaine: Right?

Elaine: Like a convertible Cadillac as opposed to a drop-top.

Elaine: And so these are very clear images that I have in my head

Elaine: because of the way that I grew up, like, I grew up knowing who

Elaine: Superman was and, you know, understanding the whole, like,

Elaine: comic book history of Superman and Lone Ranger as well.

Elaine: You know, even though Lone

Elaine: Ranger predated me, like,

Elaine: everyone knows what the Lone

Elaine: Ranger like the the character is

Elaine: and you know what he stood for,

Elaine: right?

Elaine: Um, there are other things in

Elaine: there that I just thought were

Elaine: just interesting references, but

Elaine: those were the three that I

Elaine: called out as like, really big

Elaine: pop culture references that

Elaine: helped to anchor the song in a

Elaine: particular era.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about what you heard from, the

Elaine: orchestration or, like what- what you heard in terms of,

Elaine: instruments or vocals or, any of the other things that we

Elaine: normally listen for.

Trist: My, my favorite things musically about this song are the fact

Trist: that, in the first chorus, he sings it by himself.

Trist: (Mm-hm.) Right.

Trist: Um, and then in the second

Trist: verse, after Slim arrives and

Trist: asks, asks about Jim, then you

Trist: know, they're like, and

Trist: everybody say, Jack, don't you

Trist: know, you don't tug on

Trist: Superman's cape.

Trist: Right?

Trist: So there's the whole chorus,

Trist: there's the background singers

Trist: come in.

Trist: So it's like everyone in this

Trist: part of town knows this is just

Trist: fact.

Trist: You don't tug on Superman's

Trist: cape, you don't spit in the

Trist: wind.

Trist: You don't pull the mask off Lone Ranger.

Trist: Like, these are just facts that are known and Slim is showing up

Trist: to deal with him and doesn't care what you say, but I like

Trist: the fact that it's first just him and then after he shows up

Trist: on the scene.

Trist: It's like the community, the the area of people like the quote

Trist: unquote, "everybody knows."

Trist: So they they all sing it next.

Trist: Um, and then I love how, the quote, violence slash fight

Trist: slash whatever you want to say happens, in the pool room.

Trist: I love the music.

Trist: Goes to a half time feel right?

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: Like, I wrote that down, too.

Elaine: *laughs*

Trist: I love it, just like it's this suspense that happens.

Trist: And then the background vocals, the background, everything about

Trist: the music right there tells you something is happening.

Trist: Um, even though it's only for, you know, four bars, you know,

Trist: just just just enough of a thing like, oh, this is when it goes

Trist: down, you know?

Trist: So I just love how he was able to get all of that going and all

Trist: of the vibe and the feel of what was happening in such an

Trist: economic short amount of time.

Elaine: Yeah, I mean, it was a really short song.

Elaine: I wrote down it's, you know, similar to to you.

Elaine: I didn't really pick up on the

Elaine: choir or the people singing in

Elaine: the second chorus because it

Elaine: was, you know, the people

Elaine: saying, hey, don't mess with

Elaine: Jim.

Elaine: I wrote down in my first line, half honky tonk, half

Elaine: enthusiastic church choir.

Elaine: And, I also heard a lot of, talking during the, you know,

Elaine: the, the so it was a commentary that was happening as people

Elaine: were saying, hey, you know, don't mess around with Jim.

Elaine: and I just thought that was

Elaine: interesting because I think it

Elaine: was very much like the culture,

Elaine: especially when you're talking

Elaine: about, like, an enthusiastic

Elaine: church choir.

Elaine: that there's there's a lot of,

Elaine: like, talking and feedback and

Elaine: engagement, like active

Elaine: engagement with what's going on

Elaine: there.

Elaine: And so I just thought it was, it was very I don't know if there's

Elaine: a word that I have for it, um, you know, familiar in some ways.

Elaine: Yeah.

Elaine: Um, I want.

Trist: To point out a thing that you

Trist: mentioned about the about the

Trist: talking.

Trist: So in a little section that it just vamps on one chord, it

Trist: almost serves like a bridge.

Trist: It doesn't it doesn't musically function like a bridge.

Trist: It doesn't go to some other chords we've never heard.

Trist: It's not materially, we don't know.

Trist: But just to get something different.

Trist: He does talk and it's basically Slim saying like, you know, you

Trist: don't hustle people, stranger.

Trist: Even if you do, I think it's worth something.

Trist: Like, even if you do have a two-piece custom made pool cue

Trist: like that doesn't make you great, that doesn't make you the

Trist: boss of me, etc. it doesn't make you the boss of this town and

Trist: this block and this pool room.

Trist: You know, he found out And it's like he just has this little

Trist: where he's just kind of talking.

Trist: He's not even really trying to sing it.

Trist: He's just like this little verbiage and it almost serves

Trist: like a bridge.

Trist: Yeah, really a bridge.

Trist: But it's the only material

Trist: that's like, different from the

Trist: rest.

Trist: And that's just that he's talking and saying, hey, I put

Trist: him in his place.

Elaine: Yeah. And in another episode, we

Elaine: had talked about the role of a

Elaine: bridge, where often it's some

Elaine: kind of the lesson or a

Elaine: reflective moment or the truth

Elaine: behind the song happens during

Elaine: the bridge.

Elaine: And I also found it was

Elaine: fascinating, that this was done

Elaine: as a spoken interlude because I

Elaine: was again reading through this

Elaine: and I'm like, oh, there's a

Elaine: lesson.

Elaine: And I went back and listened to it and thought, oh, that was not

Elaine: the orchestration I was expecting, um, in that moment.

Elaine: But I just thought it was

Elaine: interesting that it was a spoken

Elaine: interlude between these two

Elaine: choruses.

Elaine: It was given the time to do that as well.

Elaine: Um, in that you had, you know, however many bars.

Elaine: Was it four bars to actually talk through this lesson?

Elaine: So 100% with you, and I'm glad

Elaine: that we picked up on the same

Elaine: thing.

Trist: Yeah. Anyway, I think it's cool.

Trist: It's not it's not much deeper than that.

Trist: There's really cool musical things like that that help

Trist: outline the story.

Trist: But the fact that he that you

Trist: tell such a long, this could be

Trist: an hour of TV drama, and it's,

Trist: you know, in whatever, three

Trist: minutes or something, so I, I

Trist: love how again, how economical,

Trist: the lyrics are in telling the

Trist: story.

Elaine: Yeah, it's definitely very elegant from that perspective.

Elaine: so other things that I heard

Elaine: here, I was listening to this in

Elaine: my studio speakers because, of

Elaine: course, as you said, we want to

Elaine: listen to it in the best

Elaine: environment possible.

Elaine: And one thing that really surprised me on the first listen

Elaine: was this lead acoustic guitar.

Elaine: So, you know, it's a very acoustic song, but there was, a

Elaine: lead guitar that was doing more of, I'd say, the role that an

Elaine: electric guitar would play in, like, modern day, rock music,

Elaine: where it's a little bit more of the, um, what do you call it?

Elaine: Like the little decorations, right.

Elaine: Where you're like, oh, the interstitials, that was panned

Elaine: really, really hard left.

Elaine: Mhm.

Elaine: And then there were, places where I was trying to figure

Elaine: out, oh man, am I just listening to the Rock.

Elaine: Like how it took me a while to figure out, that the way that it

Elaine: was mixed was so, one hundred and eighty degrees that it

Elaine: really felt like you were embedded into the storytelling.

Elaine: So we had, Jim Croce's voice

Elaine: center, but maybe slightly to

Elaine: the right, and then the choir or

Elaine: the, the chorus was, kind of

Elaine: center and panning slightly to

Elaine: the right.

Elaine: But then there's this hard pan left for this lead guitar, which

Elaine: is like, oh, wow, okay, I'm really in space here.

Elaine: And, thinking about when this was made, when I think you said

Elaine: nineteen seventy two, like, that's what the song said in the

Elaine: link and 1972, I mean, you're talking about some pretty

Elaine: rudimentary, uh, controls that you have at that point in time

Elaine: when it comes to that level of mixing and mastering.

Elaine: I'm kind of curious, like what

Elaine: your thoughts were of of that,

Elaine: you know, some of the choices

Elaine: that were made from a recording

Elaine: perspective.

Trist: No, that's exactly the thing.

Trist: Just that stuff, again, being

Trist: this kind of a setting where

Trist: it's a story so helps you

Trist: visualize.

Trist: And I think that's the key, just

Trist: making you feel like you're

Trist: there.

Trist: especially again, the scene that goes to the pool room where it

Trist: goes to the half time feel, etc. the way that the chorus is like,

Trist: you can, you can just you can see it, you can see it, I think.

Trist: So I think that's I think that's pretty cool.

Elaine: Yeah. The drop to half time was

Elaine: uh, it's my favorite thing in

Elaine: the song.

Elaine: Yeah.

Elaine: well, any final thoughts about this?

Trist: I mean, that's it.

Trist: some stuff just isn't any deeper than that.

Trist: I just dig the song.

Trist: I think it's fun.

Trist: it's weird to talk so lightheartedly about, a story

Trist: where a guy gets killed, but at the same time, It doesn't land

Trist: on you that heavy.

Trist: I think probably because it does such a job setting up.

Trist: What a bad guy this Jim Walker was.

Trist: (Mm-hm.) and We like the underdog.

Trist: Maybe that's why it's like

Trist: brutally murders a guy and the

Trist: song seems so it just, it kind

Trist: of happens and then we move on,

Trist: oddly enough.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: I love what you're saying about

Elaine: the underdog here, because there

Elaine: does seem to be a power

Elaine: imbalance.

Elaine: Just looking at the lyrics.

Elaine: I have them up in front of me.

Elaine: Um, you know, we got Big Jim Walker, of course.

Elaine: and he's big and dumb as man can come.

Elaine: He's stronger than a country hoss.

Elaine: .. Uh, and, you know, you know, they all call Big Jim boss.

Elaine: And I'm listening to all of this.

Elaine: And, Jim Croce is really painting this picture of this,

Elaine: like, big, bad guy.

Elaine: And then, you know, you have the underdog, out of south Alabama

Elaine: come a country boy.

Elaine: Yep.

Elaine: So, you know, from 42nd Street, you have this country boy who

Elaine: has taken advantage of.

Elaine: And he's not exactly your idea of a winner in this song.

Elaine: But he comes and he overcomes, right?

Elaine: And he says, look, you know, I was taken advantage of.

Elaine: And now he becomes the big dog.

Elaine: So I, you know, it's it's classic underdog there.

Elaine: So really good call out.

Trist: Love it.

Elaine: Awesome. Okay. Well that's it for this week.

Elaine: But before we leave we're going to move over to our mailbag.

Trist: Mailbag?

Elaine: Yeah, we're going to have to

Elaine: have some kind of theme for this

Elaine: mailbag.

Elaine: Oh, yeah.

Elaine: so going into our mailbag.

Elaine: Just a reminder, you can get a hold of us via email.

Elaine: The musicians loop l o u p e at

Elaine: gmail.com or message us on

Elaine: Instagram.

Elaine: Follow us on Instagram for that matter.

Elaine: We would love to hear your

Elaine: questions, but in the meantime,

Elaine: we are sourcing from a number of

Elaine: different places, including

Elaine: Threads.

Elaine: So like shout out to the Musicians of Threads group

Elaine: because we're getting some really good ideas and really

Elaine: good conversation topics here.

Elaine: So this week's is from @mattlongmusic.

Elaine: and this was from August of 2025.

Elaine: And he posted: "Musicians, are

Elaine: you more creative in the

Elaine: morning, afternoon, evening or

Elaine: night trying to find my creative

Elaine: rhythm?"

Trist: Oh man.

Trist: That's a tough one.

Trist: I man, I, I don't know that there's a universal.

Trist: I suppose you could do some kind

Trist: of study and find patterns,

Trist: etc., but I think the patterns

Trist: also need to include where those

Trist: musicians are in their life, how

Trist: old they are, where their

Trist: families are, if they have them

Trist: or not.

Trist: Are they in bands?

Trist: Are they solo artists?

Trist: I think all of those things matter.

Trist: I tend to feel like we get in the groove of being musicians

Trist: who are performers.

Trist: Obviously those things happen more in the evenings.

Trist: So unless.

Elaine: You're a church.

Trist: Musician, unless you're a church musician, right?

Elaine: I'm up at 5 in the morning on Sundays.

Trist: This proves my point even more.

Trist: It's like you're- If that is the time that you do, whatever time

Trist: that you maybe condition yourself to doing music, maybe

Trist: then you naturally are creative.

Trist: In that time, I don't know.

Elaine: I don't know about that.

Elaine: Like, I play on Sunday morning, three services on Sunday

Elaine: mornings and whoo!

Elaine: It's exhausting.

Elaine: Every single time.

Trist: Well. Do you?

Trist: Well, tell me this then.

Trist: when you're not doing that, if

Trist: it's during the week, if you

Trist: don't have to work and you had

Trist: to work on some kind of music,

Trist: is there a time of day you would

Trist: just naturally want to work on

Trist: it?

Elaine: You know, I, I don't think so.

Elaine: And, you know, I was looking at this particular question and the

Elaine: question was not so much about creativity as much as it was

Elaine: about energy for me.

Elaine: And I think about how I write,

Elaine: because I've been doing a lot

Elaine: more like book writing versus

Elaine: songwriting recently.

Elaine: and that type of creativity is

Elaine: really an endurance thing for

Elaine: me.

Elaine: It's more of a discipline, right?

Elaine: In order to be able to be creative, you actually have to

Elaine: be incredibly disciplined.

Elaine: So whether it means I need to

Elaine: make time to do things before

Elaine: work or after work, or if I have

Elaine: a day off to carve out a couple

Elaine: of hours or, you know, to meet

Elaine: up with someone in order to

Elaine: provide myself with some kind of

Elaine: accountability.

Elaine: I find that I work a lot better when I've carved out time, both

Elaine: mentally and physically, and make sure that I am not

Elaine: distracted by anything else.

Elaine: Know that I am in a mental

Elaine: space, or I've carved out a

Elaine: space where I'm not going to be

Elaine: doing housework, or seeing

Elaine: friends, or being distracted by

Elaine: online things.

Elaine: It is a time that I have set

Elaine: aside to do this one particular

Elaine: thing.

Elaine: And sometimes, you know, as I'm

Elaine: prepping for, you know, I was

Elaine: talking about being a church

Elaine: musician.

Elaine: You know, I will set aside time

Elaine: to review my music ahead of

Elaine: time.

Elaine: And that is a discipline.

Elaine: And I know that you've done that as well.

Elaine: You know, the time that I've

Elaine: known you, you've excused

Elaine: yourself from all sorts of

Elaine: social events to prep for the

Elaine: next day's gig, because that's

Elaine: your responsibility.

Elaine: That's your job, right?

Elaine: To prep music and make sure that you're familiar with things.

Elaine: So in the creation process, I

Elaine: think it's a very similar kind

Elaine: of thing where you have to make

Elaine: time, and the time that you have

Elaine: is the time that you have to be

Elaine: creative.

Elaine: Now, can I optimize for one thing or another?

Elaine: I find that I'm a lot less creative and disciplined when

Elaine: I'm super tired.

Elaine: So beginning of the day, end of the day.

Elaine: Not fantastic for me.

Elaine: I'm not a morning person and

Elaine: when I get tired, I get super

Elaine: tired.

Elaine: So I think that there's there's something to be said about

Elaine: figuring out when your energy and focus is available, and also

Elaine: having the discipline to be able to train your mind to be focused

Elaine: when you need to be focused.

Elaine: So sometimes that's late morning to early afternoon for me.

Elaine: Sometimes it's after work and I need to get in a workout before

Elaine: I can sit down.

Elaine: And then I actually have to force myself to sit down and do

Elaine: something for an hour.

Elaine: And I love what I do afterwards, but it takes me prioritizing

Elaine: that time for myself.

Trist: Yeah, I definitely think every I think every musician is going to

Trist: have that for themselves.

Trist: So when that person posts that, you know, if I were able to

Trist: reply directly to them, I'd be like, hey, you gotta you have to

Trist: find that for yourself.

Trist: Finding out what's better for

Trist: everyone else in this particular

Trist: question, I don't know that it's

Trist: I understand someone reaching

Trist: out to find out what works for

Trist: people.

Trist: Um, and maybe if someone replies

Trist: saying, oh, I'm also a father of

Trist: two, etc. that might have a

Trist: difference.

Trist: Or oh, I'm also a church

Trist: musician or oh, I'm, I play in

Trist: nightclubs, etc. like knowing

Trist: those things.

Trist: then maybe the answers might help them.

Trist: But just generally when I'm more creative, I mean, I don't know,

Trist: I feel like I can be creative at any of those times.

Trist: sometimes it just hits you.

Trist: I think you're right, my initial

Trist: answer would be the evening or

Trist: night time again because I'm

Trist: just attuned to performing,

Trist: etc.. Um, so that's when I'm

Trist: just my body is my brain is

Trist: allocated, oh, this is music

Trist: time.

Trist: So that's what I'm going to be creative.

Trist: But, I mean, but also after I'm well rested and I've got, you

Trist: know, I've got the whole day ahead of me and I'm just like, I

Trist: can be a lot more creative than in a different way.

Trist: So I don't think there's a specific thing for me.

Trist: So I would think that everyone would just be different.

Elaine: Yeah. I'm also kind of curious about the difference in

Elaine: creativity between writing, like actually creating something from

Elaine: scratch versus performing and being like, I don't necessarily

Elaine: see music as mechanical, but sometimes it is one of those

Elaine: things where you're executing, you know, a creative vision, and

Elaine: you're participating as a part of a creative vision.

Elaine: I'm curious, like how that

Elaine: differs for you in terms of, you

Elaine: know, the amount of brain cells

Elaine: required or the amount of energy

Elaine: required.

Elaine: Do you do you see a difference for yourself?

Trist: Yeah. No, that's true because I would think of it.

Trist: I guess I think of them both the same.

Trist: But you're right, I think they're different.

Trist: Like, am I truly being creative or am I rehearsing things that I

Trist: just need to improve?

Trist: Here's this, here's this music I need to learn?

Trist: Well, there's nothing creative about that.

Trist: I just need to put in the time to learn the music, learn the

Trist: lyrics, learn whatever.

Trist: But that's different than the creative time.

Trist: Like, oh yeah, I told them I

Trist: would write the bridge for this

Trist: song that my co-writer is going

Trist: to.

Trist: Yeah, that is different.

Trist: I think, I need to be in a

Trist: different mindset for each of

Trist: those things.

Elaine: Yeah. And I also think that there's a lot of types of

Elaine: creativity that we participate in as musicians because there's

Elaine: a lot of the social media work or editing that is creative.

Elaine: And it takes some of that, some

Elaine: of that capacity because we're

Elaine: spending that much time

Elaine: promoting and that is, you know,

Elaine: whether it's a visual creativity

Elaine: or some kind of, you know, I'm

Elaine: creating a skit or I'm doing

Elaine: this thing to help to promote my

Elaine: music.

Elaine: Those are things that I feel tap

Elaine: into that same kind of creative

Elaine: vein.

Elaine: Not to say that that's going to

Elaine: exhaust that creative vein,

Elaine: because I don't believe it's a

Elaine: zero sum game, but it is

Elaine: something that takes away from

Elaine: your energy.

Elaine: Yeah.

Elaine: I'm kind of curious what you

Elaine: think about, like the other

Elaine: types of creativity that you

Elaine: need to have in order to be, a

Elaine: well-rounded or a self promoting

Elaine: musician.

Trist: Um.

Trist: Yeah, I do think that's different.

Trist: yeah.

Trist: I guess then for me creating,

Trist: you know, creating advertising

Trist: for shows, creating vehicles to,

Trist: promote music, etc., I think I

Trist: would think of I think of those

Trist: as more daytime activities

Trist: because they're part of like a

Trist: work day, like a normal business

Trist: world works.

Trist: I think I my brain

Trist: compartmentalizes them that way,

Trist: like, oh, um, I have this idea

Trist: to promote a show, but it

Trist: doesn't come to me on a Saturday

Trist: evening.

Trist: It comes to me on Tuesday at ten a m because that's when that's

Trist: when business happens.

Trist: Um, so I think my brain kind of does compartmentalize that.

Trist: And then it's like, I'm going to work on some music, maybe it's

Trist: in the afternoon, but it's probably it's closer to the

Trist: evening or night time for the actual music itself.

Elaine: Yeah. I'm kind of curious.

Elaine: Do you find it that your musical energy.

Elaine: So, like, thinking more of that creative energy, is like, how

Elaine: what's the relationship between that and your social battery?

Trist: Hmm. I don't know that they affect one another personally.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: I mean, the reason I ask is

Elaine: that, you know, I have a very

Elaine: my, my day job, is very

Elaine: relational.

Elaine: And a lot of times I'm in large

Elaine: meetings, small meetings,

Elaine: leading meetings, influencing

Elaine: other people.

Elaine: And it's not the mechanical stuff that will drain me.

Elaine: A lot of times it's the overall sense of like just spending a

Elaine: lot of time talking, right?

Elaine: There's a lot of emotional exertion that happens.

Elaine: And that would lead to a sense of being exhausted at the end of

Elaine: the day, as opposed to I've been staring at a screen and writing

Elaine: a document, you know, for most of the day.

Elaine: Um, yeah.

Elaine: I don't have a fully baked

Elaine: thought about how the two

Elaine: relate.

Elaine: It just came to mind, as you

Elaine: know, we're talking about the

Elaine: types of activities that either

Elaine: drains or replenishes creative

Elaine: energy.

Elaine: especially when it comes to

Elaine: those of us who are, dual career

Elaine: or, multifaceted.

Elaine: I know that I have a lot of things going on.

Elaine: And so what is it that I do that

Elaine: restores my creative vision or

Elaine: restores my creativity in

Elaine: general.

Elaine: Sleep is a big one for me.

Elaine: And what are the things that drain that creative vision?

Elaine: Make me feel a little bit more

Elaine: emotionally exhausted or unable

Elaine: to tap that same level of

Elaine: creativity, or forces me into

Elaine: more of an intellectual

Elaine: creativity versus an emotional

Elaine: creativity.

Elaine: Lots of things to think about there.

Trist: Yeah, I think, um, also, you could go either way.

Trist: Like, because you're just talking with people all day.

Trist: on one hand, it could make one

Trist: tired just in general at the end

Trist: of the day and not want to

Trist: create at all or knowing that

Trist: you need to be creative, you

Trist: have some things that you need

Trist: to create.

Trist: It might be a relief to, oh, I

Trist: don't have to interface this

Trist: way.

Trist: I can actually be creative.

Trist: I'm not just stoic now in talking to these people.

Trist: Maybe the fact that it is you do

Trist: get to be creative after you

Trist: didn't get to be creative all

Trist: day.

Trist: Maybe that for some that might actually be a jumping off point

Trist: like, oh great, I finally got rid of like the work day and now

Trist: I can be creative.

Trist: Well, sometimes it's just, uh, the work day got me so dead and

Trist: tired that I don't want to be creative at all.

Trist: I think both could be the case.

Elaine: Yeah, well, we would love to

Elaine: hear- I would love to hear, I'm

Elaine: pretty sure we would love to

Elaine: hear what you think about this

Elaine: topic.

Elaine: So definitely feel free to reach out to us.

Elaine: We would love to hear your reaction to, um, this particular

Elaine: musician and what kind of response you might have to him,

Elaine: or what kind of reflections you might have for yourself.

Trist: Yeah.

Trist: Thanks so much.

Elaine: So yeah.

Elaine: With that, that's it for this week.

Elaine: Hope to see you next week.

Elaine: And that's it for The Musician's Loupe.

Elaine: See you next time.

Elaine: Later.

Elaine: You know, I will say that the

Elaine: voice on team sounds a little

Elaine: bit less AI and a little bit

Elaine: more.

Elaine: It doesn't sound human, but it

Elaine: does sound a little bit less

Elaine: digitized.

Trist: I don't know if that's better or worse.

Trist: Set me up.

Trist: And don't say what song.

Trist: Sorry.

Elaine: And that type of creativity is really an