Link is the host of The Red Tunic Podcast. His mission is "to rediscover what makes gaming fun and enjoyable by having positive conversations with those related to the industry". | https://www.theredtunicpodcast.com/ | https://x.com/RedTunicPodcast | https://inthekeep.com/ | https://www.patreon.com/InTheKeepPodcast |

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Stellar Valkyrie

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Call of Saregnar

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so link it's it's been a while since I talked to you like what a year and a half or something like that since I was

on I think I was on your show um kind of prior to the release of Kingpin reloaded

or something like that yeah uh it's been a it's been a while um I can probably give you a much

better idea for it but yeah I know it's been a while at least um my my notes

recorded it a good chunk ago yeah man it's it's like kind of crazy I I I'm

really glad to be I mean by the time this comes out I'll be probably like six weeks or so into it but like actually

putting out episodes again it was such a long Hiatus for me uh but I I really I

think I you know would probably have one too many drinks or whatever and I'd text you in the middle of the night be like

dude I'm just so happy you're you're doing what you're doing because I like if I wasn't do if I'm not doing it

nobody's doing it and now it's it's really interesting because like when I when I first started in the keep I felt

like there was really no one at all covering that space and then people like you came along and then it's just really

really nice to see uh the indie game sphere and for you now man you've had

some really impressive guests like not even just Indie stuff so yeah like really getting the the the Deep

interviews with game devs and I I wouldn't include you know like IGN's there's a lot of gaming podcasts out

there but I don't know they're they're not formatted the same way you know

where it's just like two people in a microphone having a genuine discussion and there's a lot more like show biz

going on I'm not a big fan of that I don't I don't hate it or anything but it's just not my thing uh I'm just so

grateful that you're doing what you're doing man and uh I was listening to oh my goodness it was Dan from U from laran

or obsidian obsidian Studios uh a narrative designer I don't know I've

been trying to go back through your catalog because I think I missed a lot too I've spoken to a few Dans I think um

but I think the last one that you might be meaning is Dan Pierce but he's a he was a lead developer at uh range

scaffold [Music] um somebody who was a narrative designer

that uh that was Connor wal I want to say

I have to double check now because my my I'm horrible I'm horrible with names so that makes everything even worse yeah

Connor Walsh he was the obsidian uh entertainment narrative designer yeah yep actually what happened was I

finished that episode and then it auto played another one and I'm looking at the wrong thing but yeah but no that's really cool dude like

it's it's really really interesting like how many like I remember having a conversation with you like shortly after

you started the show and you were kind of in that early phase of I don't know how to get you know certain guests or

more listens and all that kind of stuff and I just keep doing it bro just F [ __ ] it and then the next thing I know you

got like Ramy Ismail on I'm like dude this guy has eclipsed me like I'm like what am what am I doing with my

life so like I yeah I don't I honestly I don't know why people keep agreeing to

come on I I'm not going to lie I'm not going to pretend that like I have any

like idea but people just keep agreeing to come on and I'm I'm thankful happy for it but like some of the people that

say yes I just I'm like cool awesome I don't know how or why this is working

out but it's working out um I I was making the joke for a long time that my

podcast was successfully unsuccessful in that I was getting people who come on

but I wasn't getting a whole bunch of people to listen to it uh but then I stopped making that joke because it was

people kept telling me it was too dismissive of of like what I'm doing

doing so I'm like okay I should stop should stop like intentionally [ __ ] on myself I mean there there's always a

place for kind of self- deprication and and and if it's in good humor but I mean

the the truth I always tell people the same thing if it's like about podcast it it does not matter how many people

listen it matters who's listening like because the connections that you make are what really makes a podcast

worthwhile and it will grow over time I mean even even Joe Rogan at first was

just him and his buddy you know in the spare bedroom of a house just doing random [ __ ] for a long time with no they

didn't even have tracking software back then they had no idea how many people were listening but you know you you talk

to one guy they recommend you to another guy they recommend to you know next thing you know you know everybody in the games industry and that was uh for my

for my career the podcast is the best thing I've ever done uh by far if

anybody would ever ask like hey I'm thinking about you know I don't know going into and then insert topic and as

long as it's not you know being a surgeon I would just say don't go to school for that just start a podcast

about it and then just talk to as many people who do that as humanly possible and you will learn and you'll

have control of it and potentially also make money doing it uh it's like sound like Ben rein we were talking about him

before we started recording here but yeah like him doing the field and Foley podcast I was like that's a great idea

and you in in that regard it happens a lot in our show formats I mean I've seen

how yours is kind of like Diversified over time because there are things that even you and I you know we know a lot

about game design but don't consider until someone brings it up or you meet someone who does a certain job but in his case it was like I was like how many

how many sound designers are you going to run into turns out a lot you know and then the next thing I know it goes from

video games to he's talking to people who are making you know movies like major motion he had the sound designer

of Mad Max on his show at one point like what the hell how did you do that and it was much

faster than uh either of us I think even progressed um in terms of getting like

name guest on or however you want to put it but for for your show I'm I'm curious

like what the the vision was in the beginning versus how you see it now so weirdly enough at the beginning I

so like originally I I got the idea to do this like the pandemic hit and I was just sort of bored um like not not to

put it like so blunt or gly I was just sort of trying to figure out something to do and I

like I kept having issues with how I perceive games uh and like it just I

don't want to say I was toxic but I was just unhappy and I I was I'm the type of person that if there's a glitch I'm

going to hit it and if I hit it it would piss me off and that would severely taint my view of the game right and like

I don't mean like little glitches I mean like big ones and it was just like my friend friend he you know I'd complain

to him he'd like I none of this is like I'm experiencing none of this I don't know how I don't know why you're so

unlucky but like if there was something that could go wrong it would hit me so like I was like I need to refocus or re

uh put Like A New Perspective on this so I'm not like getting so pissed off at nothing all the time so like I you know

I thought of these questions the the main handful of questions that even themselves are no longer the same after

all this time um but it was like to put a perspective and remind myself that developers are people cuz like it's not

like I was like I was going to get out there on Twitter and like [ __ ] you go kill yourself kind of [ __ ] like it's not

that kind of toxicity it was the kind of toxicity that like poisons my enjoyment

right right so like the the the questions you know like you know just who they are what they do um like their

favorite game like that kind of stuff it allowed me to be like no these are these are people and it lets me kind of like

live vicariously through other people's enjoyment or other people's Bond memories or whatnot um so yeah I just

sort of swung at it um like at one point I knew what I didn't want to do I didn't

want to have and that was uh basically the whole uh Like Larry King approach or

people like Larry King where like they sit down and they have like five questions and Hell high water they're

asking their five [ __ ] questions and that's the end of it yep um cuz like I did I watched people doing interviews

before I started to figure out like how the structure could or should work and like some of his would just be like

someone would be like yeah you know this you know he'd ask a question like yeah you know this you know I this means a lot to me cuz like my mom and you know

we used to do this a lot when I was a kid and then she passed away and this is my way of remembering her and Larry King

would just be like uh-huh so this new movie and like would just like ignore this thing they just

said right like so like I was like I don't want to be and like I'm not [ __ ] on Larry King I want to be very clear on that but like that interview

style was not what I wanted was not like the thing that resonated with me so I

was like no I need to be more conversational I need to have something that's more you know just kind of in the

moment is and then I spoke with one person I'm not going to say who just because I don't like I don't really

believe in the whole dropping names and I could also just be wrong cuz it was an early episode and they were doing their

laundry and I could hear cuz know this cuz it was an LG I could hear their like

like their dryer their washer chiming off and I was like it was kind of I don't want to say it was annoying me but

it was I'm kind of sitting there I'm like what the what the hell is going on and like that was the moment where I'm

like no I need to be even more relaxed I need to like step back and be even more

casual or like try and you know just live in the moment more so like and ever

since then it's just been every time I edit an episode I think to myself like or if I do something egregious where I

just miss a huge like potential like topic stream or

something I could have followed up on I like write notes on it cuz you know that's just how you get better how I get

better so like ever since basically ever since I heard the laundry machine I was like no no I can be better and it's just

try and be more casual but try and be more in the moment of it and like stick to asking the questions that are more or

less just easy light-hearted questions softballs if you will that will like let

people [ __ ] just realize that you know game devs are people that like

their favorite game is I don't know League of Legends or whatever and like why it's their favorite game or what have you right

yep I think uh I think that answered your question I'm sorry if it didn't it's okay it's it's all tangential here

like there I unlike you I don't give a damn what questions we ask I don't have an agenda ever really I mean there there

might be like Stu that's like sort of I know I want to cover these things with this person because that's what they do

but like I don't I don't ever write down lists of questions if that makes sense I really want conversations to feel

natural for me um I think I was going to ask you this but I'll go ahead and kind

of get it started since it's free form here haha we're doing Jazz bro um uh so

I got into listening to podcasts and what I was listening to who were all you

know the two people in a microphone conversational you know tell tell me about yourself kind of stuff and then

that's what I thought podcasts just were you know I didn't I I didn't until much later you

know get into any shows that were like these sort of formatted more you know produced I should say you know kinds of

shows or even uh if it's something like the Y files or or like Dan Carlin's

Hardcore History which is one of my favorite things of all time like these really you know structured long form

sorts of things that are one person kind of telling whatever the topic is that

was so alien to me at first so I I just approached it from the jump with the idea that I'm going to do basically what

you know you see Lex Freeman Joe Rogan Mark mea those kinds of guys were doing um the first podcast that I actually

ever listened to ever was called The Art of wrestling and it was like this Indie wrestler named Colt Cabana who's like

actually moderately famous if you're like a pro wrestling nerd or whatever but just his show was exactly that it's

like 90 minutes roughly of just talking to other wrestlers about what their life was like and it could go anywhere it

didn't have to be strictly just tell me about wrestling stuff and I just thought that was just how it was done so yeah I

don't know it's interesting but like for you what were the what were the podcasts that you did listen to like what what were the things that got you into

podcasts in general so honestly I don't

think there weren't a lot of interview ones that I I listen to at all really um

like early on uh the stuff that I was listening to um because like ever since the pandemic

podcast have been harder for me to to do just because when I was at work I could

listen to them over lunch or I could listen to them while I was doing stuff that didn't require me to be thinking a

lot however just being at home I I have

enough distractions or working from home so like I kind of fell out of listening

to a lot of stuff um so like even then though I wasn't

listening to a lot of Highly formatted things in

the way that you're getting at like for example I would listen to stuff like um

uh used listen to stuff like lore uh which you know is sort of like a in this

sense it would be like an essay kind of thing it had some production Valu some sound what have you but it was usually

just talking about like uh myths or stories that were related to like um

Supernatural mythes things or or what have you um the stuff I listened to the

most though would have been a lot of stuff from uh Max fun so like uh the

stuff from like the melroy or Jordan Jesse go um

uh there used to be from the from one of them it was called the turnaround but um

there hasn't been an episode in years I think it was an NPR thing that uh I

think it's Jesse Jesse Thorne from um from Max fun he did when he worked with

MPR or something like that and those were probably the closest things uh to

proper sit down interview kind of what have you cuz that's what it was like his

those were sit down interviews um but outside of that I really didn't listen to anything that wasn't like um comedy

esque stuff that was you know a handful of people with a microphone just [ __ ] around right right

right I uh I think the first truly formatted show like produced podcast

that I heard was Neil tyon uh Star Talk radio and it would be like basically him

bill and I and then a comedian you know whoever they picked at the time I think they have like more

regular people nowadays but they so they would still do interviews but it would

be like Neil interviewing someone like in his office privately and then the

panel would like listen to Just segments of that interview you never hear the full interview which I thought was so

strange it was still a very informative very interesting show but it was just like why do they do it that way and it

just feels a little bit I don't it feels like not not human it feels like I don't I don't know why people maybe some

people prefer it that way like in these kind of digestible bites but for me like I love a 4H hour long conversation I

maybe maybe I'm an outlier but clearly there's a lot of shows that can get away with that

so uh it can't I can't be all wrong but it's just I love that stuff even if it's

a know like 50% just whatever comes to mind I don't know I think I just love

the art of conversation more so than I care about the like getting to the point or a lot

of people are very uh driven by I I just want the you know give me the exactly

the time stamp of the things that I care about so I can move on with my life but then I think about it the other way and

I think I I do treat video games that way a lot where I'm I'm like I'll I'll

as much as I enjoy it I'm I'm like I have a limited amount of time I've got to like just I'm just going to look up the guide so I can get through this part

or whatever and that's that's something I need to I guess uh confront in my own self it's like a cognitive dissonance thing but or maybe

I just like conversations more than video games so like I what you're saying I I

know exact like I I I have an idea of what you're where like the realm that you're in I don't want to say I know exactly but like I there I know there's

definitely podcasts that do that and you know you see like these little

bite-sized three four minute whatevers sitting on YouTube or like uh 60c like

shorts and stuff like that um and that was kind of part of why I was like I should start doing shorts just to have

something as like a promo and like I would struggle so hard to find just a 60

[ __ ] second clip something that I could clip that wasn't going to that like kind of had a sound bite right um

as much as I [ __ ] hate to say like a sound bite that just sounds so I don't know I know exactly what you mean um but

like but like i' I'd see all these other podcasts and I don't I don't understand

how but they always seem to pull it off that like they have these little succinct answers or questions that can

just fit neatly into it um I'm I don't know if that's by Design or if that's

just how things work or if it's just um uh uh like a cognitive bias to only

seeing those and not realizing like that's once an episode or once every few episodes they can pull that off cleanly

or whatever but like I've always not understood how that works like how

people get lucky like that and like because it never worked for me which is also why I started doing um lightning

round questions which are just nonsense [ __ ] questions that aren't they're

just like not they're meant to hopefully be fun you know uh like uh uh you know

like who what video game character spends too much time thinking about like the Holy Roman Empire or like who thinks

they a thirst trap but they have no business to like they're not meant to be any real question right and I'm like

this works because this is hopefully fun and like I can I can I can put that into

a promo and throw it out there right again not to like be like creating sound bite content because it's not meant to

be like these huge sound bites it's just meant to be nonsense and that was my

Approach or my attempt at like hitting those kind of things

I uh I've never done that I I think the

only time I ever did that like anything remotely close to that was like I just wanted little bits to throw into the the

old intro that the show had whereas just like guests just saying random words or phrases or whatever but I I

so uh I guess a tangent we could really go on uh for for ourselves and for

people out there who may be interested in starting their own podcast is like a lot of the advice that was given to me I

and this is not just in podcasting this is just in general like the people who are giving you advice I like you got to do this you like you got to have sound

bites you got to do these kinds of promos that kind of stuff and then I would always look at the people who were

at the top of the Heap and notice that they're not doing any of the things that people are saying so for instance you

you got to promote your show with with a you know a 5sec or 15-second

clip on Twitter or whatever and like Lex Freedman does not do that and half the time there's no

announcement whatsoever before the episode comes out and then it's just like hey this is the thing today or like

maybe like a picture of him and whoever he's interviewing but that's about it and you know Nei neither does I now that

I'm thinking about it like Mark Maron didn't do that uh Rogan certainly doesn't do

that uh who are some of the other people I'm thinking like I'm talking interview based podcasts of course um God who is

that guy who's like an MTV VJ who became a podcaster I'm going to have to Google it

now because it's going to irritate me yeah that's you're not gonna you're not gonna have much luck asking me that one

well I um I I I like stay out of like as bad as it is to say I I like

to kind of go into things as blind as I possibly can be because Blinder I am the

less expectations of myself how I think I should move forward in terms of like the

the minute to minute as well as I have less idea of how like I'm not going to be unconsciously or subconsciously

trying to guide the conversation to a certain point um you know like well yes

I like to try and if I can find like a nice easy transition between questions I'm not intentionally sitting to try and

create ways to go from A to B to C cuz like that kind of betrays the the whatever so like I'm I'm really unaware

of like a lot of other people in the sphere and how they operate unless I'm going looking just to have an idea for

my own personal growth if that makes any sense I think it's also a personality thing real quick it was Adam Curry who

is probably better known now as a podcaster than he ever was for MTV stuff

or whatever but he was like one of the original major interview podcasts like

maybe the first I'm not sure but it was like oh my gosh this guy has a podcast what's a podcast kind of time frame um

but anyway so yeah personality wise I think just different interviewers or different hosts have different ways of

doing things so you know for some people like you said the Larry King approach where it's like I have my questions I'm getting to my questions this is what I

care about um I personally feel like I'm a bit more of like a mirror so I don't

really see it like I don't have an agenda necessarily of like the topics I want to cover so much as I think it's

just important that I keep the guest interested so you know whatever you want to talk

about right and then my job is just to kind of like keep the conversation moving and and not have you get bored or

or stop talking you have some guests and this is something that comes with a lot of time and I'm sure you've experienced

this too some guests are like Dave asrey right uh you don't have to interview Dave ashrey you just have to give him a

microphone and then shut up pretty much he he's just going to talk and that's great that's a that's a day off as far

as I'm concerned but then you have other people who you kind of have to keep uh

kind of giving them you have to keep giving something to get something out of it um maybe more introverted folks you

know people who are not as comfortable speaking publicly uh I've had quite a few of those where it's like it's not

that it's it's not a bad thing but it's just like it requires a bit more from me to kind of keep keep them interested

keep them flowing and uh get get the information I'm looking for out of them because they're not necessarily just going to think to volunteer it

yes I know yeah I know exactly what you're what you're talking about and those are usually the ones where um

where when I editing I'm the hardest on myself because it's like oh I I did like

I really I really [ __ ] up I failed here because where it's like I I'll hear you know some like awkwardness on my end

um yeah but I I don't know if it translates I know it's awkwardness because I'm remembering the moment right

so like you know for other people it's probably not it probably comes off um probably comes off fine but like when

I'm listening to it I'm like making notes I'm like they mentioned X I really could have followed up on it but because

I was just because like I I didn't know like because it was a little I don't

want to say harder but it was a different personality that I was trying to mat energy right that I just sort of

lost sight of the things I could have done to give them a chance to to like

get out there um luckily that has happened in a while for a long while

actually I want to say you know I don't remember the last time it happened but when it does happen it's definitely one

of those moments where I'm like listening and making you know full page worth of notes where it's like in the

future be better do better and like saying how to do better right like I know how to give myself crique it's not

like I'm just writing like you [ __ ] up you suck it's just like you missed your chance they talked about this and you

just you didn't you ignored it or like you didn't realize or you were too busy trying to like figure out how to do

something else that you miss this amazing opportunity or whatever right so like

yeah like I I know what you're saying and like for some people yeah it's like you give them you give them the chance

and they just they just go and it's like well okay thank you for listening to in the key please consider taking a moment

to leave a review comment a like And subscribe on your listening platform of choice it really helps it's great

greatly appreciated if you really love the show and want to see it grow consider supporting us bya patreon

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talking about here over at inthe keep.com thank you bless you and enjoy

the [Music] show like this is this is interesting

let's see where this goes like Dave ashrey for example since you you dropped him um his he was one of the first

people that you know on the topic of like getting into games was like don't just sell drugs you'll make more money that way I the context I believe in his

scenario was if you think making games is about making money don't just sell drugs um yeah he was selling sunglasses

and probably lots of other things at one point Dave's been around in a lot of different ways like I actually really

admire his career path because he too was like basically a journalist who

slowly got into producing games so he started writing about wow I think he said yeah he was like you know basically

I think you know just kind of working and then on the side he was doing articles for a bunch of different uh

websites and everything and yeah World of Warcraft and I think he was one of the first people in the world to play Skyrim I want to say I mean he he just

slowly worked his way into it then he ended up in uh the rise of the Triad remake and then that you know slowly

just turned into a full-on career somehow that didn't [ __ ] him up I mean I

I'm not trying to cut off your point because you were still talking but I I would just say that is good advice like the don't don't get into games just go

sell drugs I'm not saying go sell drugs necessarily but there are a lot less stressful ways to make money um yes

exactly but it is it is it is not something that if you're one of those

people out there who like are looking for a job and you want to have a ninet to-5 in a work life balance this is not

the career for you um and I I've seen that both you know from interviewing

people and also from being in the industry it's I hate when people say the industry I don't even know why I just said that shoot me um but being in the

video games uh production business period is not a 9 to-5 job it doesn't

exist in the people who have that expectation when they get into it are always crushed or

unsuccessful yeah I don't know where to follow with that one um like I I'm not in a position to disagree like

I you know I I have a 9-to-5 I I work my nine-to-five I try to not give a [ __ ]

outside of my 9 to5 right um like I'm

you know I'm I'm rather I don't want to say kg I'm quiet about my job

because some people would probably argue I'm not allowed to do the podcast if I'm

ever found if I'm ever made right so like they're they're wrong by the way I want to be very clear on that like if

anyone's listening like oh you link you're doing something stupid like no I'm I'm well within my rights I just work with or not well within my like

rights in terms of work stuff um but like I don't talk about my job a lot cuz

it's just when it doesn't matter largely speaking um but it's it's you know like

I've had one person like are you in the industry I'm like no like that's not a lie it's not like I'm Bound by an NDA

and this is just me flying under the radar uh you know within the realm of that it's like just no like I'm just I

don't want to be made because I don't want the headache of having to sit in a stupid boardroom and have to listen to

someone going so we think you're okay but be like no I don't um but yeah no

what I'm getting at is like I like yeah I I uh I don't think I would survive

doing a job where the 9 to5 is such an ambiguous thing that like I would have

to fight to have it like fight to have that kind of pce and be like yeah crunch

time who gives a [ __ ] um like I'm done for the day good night goodbye laptops closed out the door kind of thing um and

I can't stand it like when that happens I it drives me insane like when I see someone do that I'm I literally have

that shitty attitude of like you don't belong here which is toxic on my part just in general for people just not

wanting to like work unpaid overtime and [ __ ] um well I would say it certainly depends

on what job you have but I mean and so here's what here's what annoys me about I'm going to try to articulate this

without coming across as a complete dick uh when you have someone who actively

says things like I love the games industry it's the only thing in the world I want to do um I this is my

passion in life you know and then would not take a job in any other thing and

then to them it's just like they're going to like you're just going to stop working at 230 regardless of the fact

that the job needs to be done I'm not saying that they should be not getting paid for the overtime although I will

say that most contracts that I've ever seen do not specify the number of hours per week that you're required to work

they're like or even though we'll say you're paid for 40 hours and then you have an additional amount of pay

for like for the fact that you are going to work overtime and that's included in this salary you know it's not allor Le

PID um and it's your right to walk away don't get me wrong I'm not saying don't do that but I'm like you just

you you can't say you're passionate about it then not actually have any passion for it I guess that's where I'm coming from does that make any sense or

do I just sound like a douchebag I understand what I understand what

you're saying but uh I I don't work in the industry I think that's the safest

thing is so it's like I it's what what what what an individual person chooses

to do and their the expectations that they have and that they hold themselves to

like that's that's person to person right like um you know for me like I said I'm I'm just a normal everyday

programmer 9 five um I'm I don't give a [ __ ] about crunch like I coming up to

release if my boss came to me and was like this shit's behind we need it for the end of this week and if I'm behind

my answer is going to be well yeah I [ __ ] up it's on me and I'll quietly do some [ __ ] and you know get it done or if

it's like it was dropped last minute my response is going to be cool are we paying for him like are you going to you

know are we paying me for my extra time um but like largely speaking just

because of the the the structure that I'm in I typically don't have to worry

about it so like I'm not going to judge someone that says I'm going to work all

this over time I'm going to do the Crunch and I don't care right so like I understand what you're saying it's just

I'm not in that world so it's hard for me to it's hard for me to like align with

someone in it and like judge or think of how they think about that approach I

hope all that makes sense just what it really comes down to is like I said I'm that's not the world I have to live in

so like my my view and my my bias for it is largely around how I exist and how I

need to exist for my 9 to-5 you know no it's there's a lot of different like

you've sparked off so many different it's really new potential pass basically is the short in my mind it is nuance and

I think that part of it is the um the use of the word Crunch and what that

means in people's minds versus the reality of what actually happens and it's different I'm sure at different

companies so I've never had ever a moment where a

producer or a boss came and said everybody has to stay and work overtime to finish on a deadline ever that's

never happened to me um I've had that happen in the in the military but that's

the military so it's different um I I I know from hearing it that that does happen in the games industry to a large

degree at you know bigger companies but I what I I guess what I'm trying to articulate is not that people

should work overtime what I'm saying is if you're if you're not so in love with

making video games that it you would basically die for it like it's your [ __ ] number one thing in the world I

just don't think you ought to pursue that path because if you are going to just you know come in 7 and leave at

2:30 or whatever you're you're very likely not going to be successful in in that in the

industry period you're just going to be I guess it also depends on what your particular specialty is too I suppose if

you're like a QA tester you can probably get away with like oh I came in I tested this many bugs I got off on time no big

deal um but then it's like if you're a if you're a programmer and you your job

is to fix all the bugs that the QA guy did and you have a deadline you're your your day is likely not going to end just

whenever you want it to unless you just don't care about the outcome of the product because it's art so you know if

you're going to make a statue you don't stop carving the statue when 5:00 comes

around you finish the the piece of work now can you come back tomorrow sure but if your client ordered it at a certain

time and he promised at a certain time you have to deliver it on time

and of a certain

quality like yes yes I I yeah I understand what you're saying yes that's

the the nuanced balance of like timelines and deadlines and everything right um but you know like I said that's

not the world luckily the world I have to live in I don't have to do that balance myself more or less right um you

know like like I said there's times where I'm behind because behind you know I [ __ ] up or I [ __ ] around when I

shouldn't have and now I need to like make up the time and I'll do that quietly right like I I do it but like

I'm not going to I'm not going to burn like I'm not going to light myself on fire for for the stuff I'm doing if I

don't have to and if I'm not being paid for it um and like I said luckily for me

that's not something that has to come up a lot just because of the structure of where I am you know we are uh you know

it's a normal 9 IFI programming it's like just like not a thing that my my employer you know we it's not

a thing we put oursel in the position of like I used to work at a company um I'm

not going to say who because the [ __ ] second in Command right now is a real

[ __ ] um I don't really feel like drawing his ey and he'll have him come along be like oh he's full of [ __ ] with

what he's saying yeah um but like they did that [ __ ] all the [ __ ] time and like they would just deoy stuff to prod

um like they had weird crunch Rush stuff like it was it was terrible and like it

was incredibly toxic and like I I just want to avoid the kind that kind of toxicity and like luckily my place I'm

at we don't have it inside of uh like where I am like inside of my group if

you will or or whatever you know different divisions and all that fun [ __ ] does it 100% exists in another

division um or two but like I'm safe from it and I'm going to keep trying to

be safe from it as long as I can um but really quickly the reason uh if if

you're if you're wondering why I don't want to draw the ey of the other guy because even if it's just a matter of saying I work there um I had to Listen

to Someone Like get [ __ ] merked on a phone call and like I really don't want to have to like bring that up and have

it like go incredibly public where the company is and have them like try and argue with me over it and be like dude

like no like it happened like the head of H messaged me they're like you can have the rest of the day off if you want

I'm like no okay I'm good but like yeah if you're wondering why I am kg about saying that where I work there it's just

because I I don't trust that if that were to get out that the the second and command wouldn't be a [ __ ] [ __ ]

and like come after me for reasons unknown but he picks fites of people on Twitter for reasons unknown so like it's

not outside the realm of possibility I completely relate to where you're coming from like when I started

the show for the first three years I was still actively I was still active duty in the in the Air Force so I was

very I I talked about what I did like I would say I'm a weather forecaster and talk about that but I would never say

where I worked you know um because I did essentially even though even though it

was totally like in every way legal that it's like if I were talking about the Air Force while in the Air Force then

legally I would have to get it cleared with like um B basically Air Force public relations you know what I mean

and then they would might they might have rules or whatever so I just like if I just don't mention them at all it

wasn't a problem and also like I would I was much more shielded about my identity like originally I would just be the

motherload and then over time I relaxed about that and then once I got out I was like okay and now I can [ __ ] talk about anything I want because I I

wouldn't even I still don't but if somebody wanted to talk about politics I would just tell them like we're not

doing that because for me it's when I when you're in the service at least it is illegal to talk [ __ ] about the

president you know it's like you're you're basically uh the the legal term is like

you're um you're you're criticizing a superior

officer because the technically the president is like the you know the head of the military so it would be if I had

went you like you're doing right now but you're keeping your anonymity and you're not seeing any names but if I had been talking bad about my supervisor or the

colonel or whatever talking bad about the president is the same thing now you can do that you know privately but if

you're doing it publicly now you're committing a crime so I would just I don't want anything to do with that like I don't even want to touch it but what I

guess what I'm trying to say is that I I understand why you have the the the veil you know the curtain so to speak and

that's fine I think that's a probably healthy a lot healthier than like putting your identity out to the world

because then you things come with that like yeah I imagine at some point

one day there's a chance I'm going to get made and like I'll have to go to my boss and just be like hey everything I've been doing is above board cuz like

I'll use the military the Air Force thing for example like if I was Air Force I'd be like at no point have I

spoken about the Air Force and at no point have I said my real name at no point have I alluded to X Y or Z right

yeah so like I you know and then you know whatever major I don't I don't know

the structure military stuff um my analogy is falling apart in this case but like at that point they they'd have

to be like yeah look we we get it you didn't um you know they would still then you know have to sit me across a [ __ ]

boardroom table and we'd have to have a real conversation where everything I just kept saying was by our you know by

our bylaws I am above board by our guidelines by our whatever whatever

whatever everything's above board but I just don't want to do that and like the moment I have to it's going to be one of

those things where like it it's going to have to be damn well worth my my time and effort to make myself in that case

you know like I don't I don't in this point in time I don't know what that means like what that what would be

quantifiable as the worst um but like I just know I'd have to be able to look

into a mirror and say no this is [ __ ] worth it you're doing this right um but like that's a bridge I haven't had to

cross and it's not a bridge I'm going to cross and you know I'll keep I will keep banging the drum of everything I'm doing

is above board because it is it really is um but I'll keep banging that drum until

I'm not a until like the drum kind of cracks a little and I go [ __ ] is this still above board but like you know

cross it when it comes and I haven't had to worry about it yet but yeah like you understand the the the angle of that and

I I imagine a lot of other people as well could understand the angle of like

the [ __ ] that means just because like I don't think anyone wants to like going to work one day regardless of their job

regardless of like if they're a five star general or just some if we're

sticking with military [ __ ] or like some uh I don't know mind sweeper or whatever whatever the lowest rank is um like

whatever I don't think anyone wants to have to go into their job and get in [ __ ] or doing like their hobby on the side that is relatively harmless you

know what I mean so like yeah I kind of rambled there I lost where I was going I

understand it's I was in that situation to a degree because I mean I do run in the keep as a as a game Studio as well

um and there was some discussion about that being a conflict of interest when I was working you know for a proper games

company right and I was just like I mean this I'm not competing with you and I don't see the the issue and no one ever

had a problem with it and it wasn't it was never a problem but I do know that some people are under contracts with

they're you're just not allowed to do anything else at all this is just this this the only thing you do and I just I

don't I don't know why I I guess people would have different circumstances different needs different path and everything but I I could never work for

someone who wants to monopolize or control what I do outside of the time

that they're paying me for and I guess that makes me sound like a hypocrite for what I said earlier but I you know you

still you're still a human being you're still allowed to like have your Pursuits and everything yeah I mean if you were

like an employee of Coca-Cola and then your hobby was also working at Pepsi maybe that's a problem but yes like um

in in terms of like conflict of interest stuff I'll use the my previous employer again because this was a perfect example

inside of their hiring package whatever one of their their guidelines bylaws

whatever like whatever the phrasing terms of service uh was effectively

that anything you did related to programming or websites

or whatever was theirs on or off the clock and the the logic of

it was well you could have learned those skills you know from us or or some [ __ ] and like they they did that and

at the time I was working before I got hired like when they sent me the contract I was working as a designer um

and a website like a web dev kind of thing yep and they sent that and I'm

looking at it and I'm like if I freelance for you know John Smith here

I'm like are you saying you [ __ ] own my work from him and like the the

the hiring God person was like oh let me let me send this off to a lawyer and like the lawyer accidentally like some

[ __ ] idiot did a reply all um and basically went yeah that's why we [ __ ] pay them a

salary so if they don't like it they can turn down the job and I just went and she sent it to me and I like I click the

the path and I'm like wow this was [ __ ] stupid um like I took the job it was paying me more right like it was

worth my time but it was one of those things where it's like never speak about anything you do on the [ __ ] side and

like some people would talk about it like they had a big slack they had all this [ __ ] different channels and every

now and then someone would be like stop [ __ ] talking about your side hustle they will literally they can Own It by

their by your hiring terms and like you would see them stop because like people quickly realized they were admitting to

[ __ ] right but yeah no like I yeah luckily i' I've avoided conflict of interest but yeah I I think it's

[ __ ] in a lot of cases like I think California just recently passed a law

about it I think um where I am Ontario I think they have a conflict of interest

thing that's like in the works or Canada has one in the works to say like no buy [ __ ] but like I'm happy to see that

that mentality unless it's like one for one related and you're like being poached by a someone um like that it's

basically almost impossible or getting harder to like enforce because it's

[ __ ] like conflict of interest unless like you said you're Moonlighting at Pepsi on your off hours from Coke

like you know like pooke has no pooke doesn't need to know or have any business if you're [ __ ] I don't know

volunteering at an animal shelter after hours to make sure their books are are

balanced right like how like that's in no way shape or form is that [ __ ] a conflict of interest right like

I I don't think it is because so so by by the logic of like I

own everything that you do that has any you know if you could have learned that skill from working for us like that's ridiculous because then like well what

about where I learned it before I came to this company like what about the the skills that I brought to that you interviewed me for that you wanted to

make sure I have like does does college does my teacher does my friend who taught me a trick on that like in

intellectual property is such a strange idea from the jump like the idea that someone can own something in your brain

you know that I get it if it's like you if they find out you literally like copy pasted the code out of one thing and

then used it for another company or another client or whatever for your own gain or what you

know I can understand why that would not be okay but I don't know I guess it all

really comes down to like you don't own my brain maybe that's the American in me though

yeah like yes exactly that's that's what I'm getting at it's like yeah like that's you know that kind of [ __ ] is is nonsense in my opinion and I'm glad that

it's kind of [ __ ] off at this point or we're getting to the point where it's being pulled the [ __ ]

up um I guess what the I've kind of buried this topic in my brain now like I

don't know what what to say other than like [ __ ] him for doing that to you or anyone else but

to get back onto your uh your show can you can you maybe I don't I'm not going

to ask worse but what do you think are like the interviews that you're the most proud of if you have

any so like funnily enough I someone recently they they said you know can you

send me a few we you know CU like they were they were interested in you know like saying yes but they wanted to like

have some e and flow like understand it and like for them I kind of grabed like someone that they previously I'm like

yeah this is kind of cheating and then I sent them another one um but like someone else was like yeah I'm going to

listen to a few episodes you know reach back out to me after steam next bestest because you know I may or may not have

[ __ ] up and sent out a bunch of stuff right as Steam next best started which yeah uh is a [ __ ] nightmare time to

do it right um and like they're like I'm going to listen to some episodes and I'm like I wish I had like the the demo real

kind of thing of ones to send you I'm like you know so there aren't any I

don't I don't want to say like there are somewhere I'm like this was a [ __ ] amazing episode um because more often

than not I think all my episodes are great right um and now in terms of like

people that I've spoken to where it's like I don't know how I got this person this is really cool um I like I spoke

with David mullik who is you know uh at this point legendary like been making games since the [ __ ] 70s late 70s

early ' 80s or what Happ you um you know like worked on like Heroes 3 Heroes 2 I

have no mouth but I must scream umam so like I've spoken to like you

know in that case I've spoken to some like wild people that like I can say yeah I'm I'm I'm proud to have you know

managed to pull these people off somehow uh just because like they are they're

wildly like important or or you know just the way they are in the industry like uh you mentioned Ramy Ismail that

was like you know him him him agreeing to talk to me was an interesting thing um he ignored

me I I don't know how I pulled it off I think I just got lucky to be quite honest I think I made a typo in my in my

message to him and it probably made me look like a dick yeah um made you like

the spam filter caught you maybe uh not a not a spam filter but just like it maybe looked unprofessional or something

like that or he just didn't notice it I mean there's also timing or mood yes you know there's

look so like so when it comes to that in that scenario like I'm I I don't

have I just don't have anyone like there isn't I don't think of them in that way and that's not like I know that kind of

can sound like a a non answer or like a cheat answer it's just I don't you know

I largely don't think of you know oh this is one of my best episodes or this was a good episode cuz generally feel

good about most of my episodes and the ones I don't feel good about I'll listen to and go that's that went way better

than I thought it did like one day um like I I realized like a few hours after

recording that I hadn't eaten anything in like 30 hours kind of thing yeah and I was like I don't like I was like

telling my girlfriend I'm like the whole time like my head was empty it was terrifying and like you know I thought

that was going to be a horrible episode because like the fleeting memories that I had of it I were not good memory and

then I listen to I'm like no this was actually perfectly fine right so like I

just yeah I don't I don't think of them and like this is a [ __ ] great episode like I said most of them are are are

great episodes in my mind like I do a good job most of the time and the times I'm not doing a good job I'm doing a

good enough job that it's almost indistinguishable that it's just me you know in my own head saying I'm doing a

bad job if all that makes sense I I can really relate I've had people

ask me the same like a similar similar questions where it's like you know who's your favorite guest you've ever had or

that kind of thing or what's the best episode or you know could you recommend me which ones I mean there the easy goto

is like the more celebrity type people right you could say uh you know well you someone that that person is going to

name recognize and care about hearing but I also have this really kind of strict philosophy

of I the the famous people you can go listen to interviews that they've done before right so if I don't have anything

like really new to bring to the table like I'm not going to I'm not going to undercover some new deep truth about

John Romero that he hasn't already revealed to you know in a thousand interviews for instance or with his own [ __ ] book right exactly uh there

there might be some you know and it may be an interesting conversation just because it's me or whatever but I I

don't I don't think I need to my my audience hopefully is not just there for the celebrities but do think that there

that's an important part of it in terms of draw so like if you have people who are have have a have a name you know

that that people recognize and that's what gets them to listen to the show the first time great and then I hope that

they stick around for another episode where I'm talking to someone that you've never heard of and that you grow to love them as well um and that's my goal

ultimately is to kind of like promote you know you using the always use the

wrestling analogy like if you want to make a star in wrestling you don't have them wrestle other people who are not Stars you have them you know you put the

new guy up against John Cena so that now you're elevating their status up to like

oh he's fighting John Cena or whatever same thing in boxing uh any any competitive thing you you want to use

your stars to make new stars or else you're just going to run out of stars and all the stars

die yes yeah I understand completely and like you know in the sense of you know knowing your audience

to answer it from maybe like that realm like I only have I only have one example

and that's not meant to dismiss anyone else but like largely speaking if some

someone was like who should I listen to and I know that they are uh someone that

likes doing [ __ ] posts like in in that this example I'd be like well I I interviewed you know interviewed [ __ ]

Giani you can listen to that one sure um cuz like I I spoke to you know some friends and I was like yeah I'm

interviewing this person and they their respon was the [ __ ] posting guy and I'm like Okay cool so his reach is way

[ __ ] wider than I I had any any awareness of right so like in like in

specific examples I can pull episodes out right but like you know outside of

that yeah it's just it's way too hard because I'm I'm proud of all the episodes and you know I like I said I

think most of them if not all of them are are good and varying degrees of good

and good by other people's standard or like better by some whatever however you

want to interpret that um but yeah so like yeah that's why it's also hard like it's it's kind of like the question I I

ask and I know it's a dirty question you know asking people like their favorite video game and it's like you know it's

always that Scott Pilgrim moment where like young Neil is on the couch and it's like well what do you play and he's like

like that's you know what the [ __ ] do you mean right like that's a loaded question like you know so like it's

asking like a favorite game or asking like a favorite episode or favorite episodes without any kind of grounding

context and that's not me making a shot at you but just like in general like I [ __ ] suck at it and I can only make

grounded context with people if I know the person and like I have an idea right

um yeah I hope I hope what I'm saying makes some at least some semblance S no I mean that I think the important thing

to remember especially when you're when you're asking questions and when you're answering questions is just like your answer is your answer like if if someone

asks you a question that you can't come up with a concise answer for your answer is I don't have a concise answer for it

you know or or it's more complicated than you might think if someone were to ask me today what's your favorite video

game it's it's like it's most likely the answer is whatever one I played most recently that I enjoyed you know I'm

really fickle and I don't mean to be but it's I I think it's also part of like a a growing process whereas like if you'd

asked me you know I don't know four years ago what's your favorite game of all time I probably would have said

Quake um and if you asked me now hey do you want to play Quake I'd be like I'd rather [ __ ] go play in

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show and you know what I mean it's things

change what's your favorite Quint Tarantino movies like the one I saw most recently which one was that uh hateful

eight but if I watched Kill Bill right now Kill Bill would automatically be my favorite movie

like I'm so I'm like a puppy dog with that kind of stuff but I do think that it's okay for people's taste to change

it's okay for people's takes to be nuanced um if you were to ask me the same question like what's the what's

your favorite I don't know episode you've ever done um I I couldn't even point out a particular episode but I

would say it's like it' probably be like particular guests and they're almost never going to be someone who's like

there are people who I'm like oh my you know when I had Andrew holel on I thought that was a high watermark for me

because it it opened up a lot of doors it went from just strictly like these really small Indie things to now other

people if I show them my catalog they'll take me more seriously so for him giving

me the rub made made it so that if I go to another I don't know uh

David samansky and I'm like hey man you want to do my show where he's he might have dismissed it before but he's like oh Andrew did it well Andrew's cool must

be a good show I don't know I don't know what his thought process is even but I thought of it that way at the time but I

tend to really value and not I'm weird I don't know if you do this and I'm curious if you do but I will go back and

like actually listen to my own show like and a lot of it is like it's it's not

because I'm in love with this s of my own voice trust me but it's like uh you miss a lot in the

conversation when you're having it and then when you listen to it again it might be in a different context and for

me in particular um it was so interesting like years afterward going back and

revisiting say my first interview with Fred shriber and then hearing the things that I said to him or that he said to me

then and then later when I go to work for 3D Realms like wow this almost like

it was meant to be you know if I had known then where I'd be now because of this conversation like that that kind of

context can be very interesting but the guests that I like the most are usually the ones that I just end up making friends with you know I Cole reach out

to you with like a DM on Twitter like hey I really like your gaming would you like to talk to me and then the next thing you know you're talking for three

hours and you turn off the recording and it's like you talk to that person every day those are really cool those are some

of the best ones for me so

I yeah I understand everything you're saying and like for me I've experienced like none of that um as like and I'll

explain how and I'll explain why because like it's one of those things where I

just don't know like um I I don't think I've had many people open doors for me

and I don't mean that like you know how dare those people I'm just meaning I don't think I've had a lot of people

actively be like oh you've spoken to a lot of these people this is [ __ ] cool um like I'm I'm almost at I'm almost at

like episode 100 I think I just recorded like episode 97 98 today conratulations

thank you and at like you know out of all of those people I think maybe 10

have actively been like oh hey you spoke to this person this is cool when I reached out to them

um like so like I I honestly haven't really experienced that one um which

like I don't I'm not saying this in a negative way uh like I I don't know how

that works so I don't know how to relate to that feeling like I've spoken to some other people and they've made the

acknowledgement that like they had certain doors open and for me I'm like yeah that's

happens so rarely I don't know what that means like I can't I can't understand what you're

saying I haven't had that kind of opportunity I actually wonder if the door is open and you're just not seeing

that the door is open like in a lot of cases or you're just not walking through it I don't I don't so that's a good

point I don't know CU I don't exactly um I don't exactly like walk into like you

know DMS of people like hey we spoke to so and so um I don't name drop unless I'm allowed to that's just like um the

same kind of like common courtesy that I take with not dming the per or not

tagging the person's company unless they say yes cuz like you know a lot of people are like I'm talking to you in my

capacity we're going to talk about where I work but not what I do kind of thing right so it's like not trying to draw

eyes to someone in a way they shouldn't um you know try basically to avoid like

having to get [ __ ] PR involved because I've already I've recorded an episode with one person actually and

like basically PR afterwards like no no no and like that episode just didn't

happen right um so like it's that's you know kind of the same rule I have is

unless I'm a given permission I'm not going to you know drop a name I'm not going to be like open the door with hey

so and so I spoke to so and so you're friends with them um so like you're

you're right like the door might be open I just might not know how or when to to use it um and also in the same vein um

like I and I I I I I know I have an idea of where this [ __ ] came from um it's cuz

I grew up on the internet and like I was an annoying teenag teer or annoying like GRE and like had to balance myself hard

um and I ended up swinging the like to the other [ __ ] side of the the extreme but like I I don't actually talk

to a lot of people uh that that I've spoken to as guest like I don't really

stay in touch with people I I kind of leave that for them to do because when I

was younger like I started on the internet when I was like [ __ ] 12 when I was like 13 I've using link online

since I was like 13 I'm 36 that's 23 [ __ ] years um just to

put like to put in heart perspective as well that was when the internet was still kind of the wild [ __ ] West

right like I know now today people talk about that and there's probably like some younger people like yeah [ __ ] does

that mean old man and it's like the internet was the wild [ __ ] West that's what it means like I was hitting

the internet when like ASL was what you [ __ ] opened every goddamn conversation with with a new person yeah

like ASL was what you [ __ ] had in every all of your bios right cuz like it was age sex location and for most people

it was [ __ ] 19 California M or F or whatever because

you were always [ __ ] lying on the internet right um that was the rule but it was you know 18 California and then

whatever you know male female whatever but but like it it was wild so wild

Westy that like as a 12-year-old I just [ __ ] was able to talk to people and I was an annoying piece of [ __ ] like it

would just be like every day be like what what are you doing what's up and it would just be like it would we'd be doing that to like the same people every

like three hours they'd be like can you shut the [ __ ] up and leave me alone and like You' do it to people they' do it to

you but it was just like because of that I've had such like a course correct swing that I don't really try and bug

people unless they want to talk to me you know so like I you know for in this example

where like you know the door could be open it very well could but it's just I'm so aggressively pendulum swung the

other way because of being an annoying like 12 13-year-old on the internet I don't want to be an annoying 36-year-old

on the internet you know that's

a h development certainly plays a big role in it I think

but like do you do you think of your yourself as an introverted person in general like because you said you don't

talk I'm not actually no I'm not actually that introverted at all to be quite honest I um like IRL do you just

like feel comfortable making eye eye contact and talking to people being the first person to speak like walking up to

a stranger that kind of stuff if I have to be I don't give a [ __ ] like it's you know like um for example like at PS and

stuff when I used to go to uh before the podcast is that that how I phrase this

for the podcast when I would go to packs I would talk to devs the same way I SP talked to them after the last packs I

went to um you know the last one I went to was handing over business cards like okayy you should come talk to me and

[ __ ] um but like even before that it I would usually walk up to devs and just

be like [ __ ] what's your [ __ ] about and like be asking them all these questions and stuff so like I'm you know

I'm I'm not an introvert I don't care to get involved if I don't have to more

often than not but like I like talking to people like obviously I'm doing the podcast right like yeah I like getting

to know people and all that stuff but like it's just like I said because of

the pendulum swing and how bad it was when I was like 12 13 14 or whatever I I

horse corrected so hard that now it's more I don't want to be a pain in the ass to somebody I don't want to be

annoying somebody uh and like trying to be effectively what would be like

worming my way into their life or be seen as worming my way into their life even though I'm pretty certain they

wouldn't think of it that way if I was you know not bugging them every day but

like like I said I've course corrected so hard that trying to talk to someone Uninvited

to me is now just the like the thing that I just don't do you know

that's uh so here the the best way I know how to explain this is like first of all I don't think that introversion

and extroversion are binary I think it's far more spectral and there's a lot more complication to it than just one thing

so I have known some people who are like on the internet are perfectly

comfortable talking to whoever it's like I'm hiding behind a screen I don't care who I speak to I don't care what I say to them you know and there's some people

obviously out there who don't care if they'll tell you to go you know jump off a bridge or Worse um just because but

then in real life that's that same person couldn't go outside of their house you know if their life dependent

on it for more than like a Pepsi at the gas station that's 30 seconds away um

whereas I've also known people who are

like maybe shy on the internet because they're like afraid of you know like oh

what if you know what if offend someone or whatever or they're um maybe just not

comfortable in that particular way of engaging but in in at a party they're like a social butterfly uh for me I I

find it very difficult to understand the mindset of someone who's afraid to just

like ask a question if that makes sense so like obviously you're not afraid to

like email someone or whatever and say like hey would you like to be on my show you've been very successful with that

but for me it's like especially after I've had a multiple hour long conversation with that person like I

feel perfectly comfortable being being like hey what's up you know how how's it going are you still doing good you want to come back on when the I don't know

when Early Access is over or whatever like I I got no issue with that or like hey I'm doing a panel of guests who all

are all sound designers you want to be part of it um but that might be like part of how my brain works uh did you

have do you have siblings no I am well no I don't have any siblings I the closest thing I have

to a sibling is one of my cousins that we spent a lot of time together um but

yeah no no no like biological siblings that I had to tolerate and deal with 247

yeah I so I'm in the middle of seven so I think for me I again going back to the

like how you grew up kind of way for me I was like I always felt this need to like kind of either you know I would

either run away to my room and read a book or play guitar or whatever to get away from how much noise is going on but

in general I'm always kind of thinking about like how to get the group to move together like to be cohesive to do

activities that kind of thing so maybe that's why I I'm like always trying to include everyone um when it comes to

like Indie developers like with Realms deep for instance like when we were putting those together I was I had a

reason like I had an agenda for why I'm trying to make all these connections or if I run into two people who's like one

guy's a great programmer the other guy's a great artist and I know that they're you know they both have similar interests in games and they're both

looking for a project I have no issue with being like hey uh I'll just slam them into a group chat and be like

YouTube need to talk you need to meet each other goodbye my work here is done but I think that yeah that's a

definitely like a a clear difference in our personality types I can't imagine not that it's a bad thing there's no

wrong answer it's just like um I have so many people like friends

genuine like probably lifelong friends that I've met by interviewing them so like I I think there's a better way I

might be able to put it sure um when it comes to talking to people now it's the

perception on my part that I need to have a reason to bug them because just

like I said the pendulum is swung so hard for me that my concern is that I'm being a pain in the ass to someone right

so like my mindset is if I reach out to someone with a

purpose that or an agenda like the way you're using agenda the per like you know the purpose the the the what have

you sure um that's how I function because otherwise like I said I'm

worried I'm going to be just being a pain in the ass to someone just again because like I was a pain in the ass to

a lot of people when I I was younger when I was 12 13 yeah like that was just how those convers ations you know work

um and I had more people annoyed with me than not annoyed with me um there

there's definitely a balance for that um yes and like that's the thing is because I swung so hard to each side that there

was no real adjustment period for me finding that balance and now I'm just

perpetually like I don't want to bother anyone so I'll hit them with a hey just wanted to say

XYZ peace right get it get the [ __ ] out of their life so I'm not so I know I'm not going to be bothering them um but

then like the the other side of that is like you like you know you you you reach out to people and you can talk to them I

I can like it's just I'm always going to be worried I'm a

painia h h I think I have that to some degree

like I've certainly I've certainly had people that I was like like okay that I could have

gotten on to the show but I felt like this strange and it was just totally a mental block but I was like I can't have

them on until I've like built up a res a resume that's worth their while or whatever like I'm not I want to be clear

I [ __ ] dropped that one on my side very quick good good good yeah I got rid of that [ __ ] real quick I certainly had

that uh mental block at first also was like much more meticulous about like editing every little you know if there

was a moment of dead air or like uh if I thought I said the word like like like like like like like you know like too

like many like times um yeah or something like that I was way more sensitive about that [ __ ] and then now

unless I know for a fact that there's like a spot where we got up to take a piss or somebody said something that

they definitely don't want to see the light of day I'm when I'm editing I'm just skimming through broad Strokes I'm

sticking the intro in the outro I'm recording my little bit at the end and I'm moving on with my life but I used to

I mean I I would if I recorded an hour long episode it would it would take me

an additional three hours to edit it because I was so nervous about how it

would come across and I've completely relaxed I think it took probably maybe 30 episodes before I just totally

dropped all that [ __ ] I don't have any time for that it's also just timec consuming like why work harder than you

have to um and then also technology improved quite a bit or when I first

started you know I was kind of like manually doing everything audio wise

myself and then I got introduced to like aonic which is just like a you just

throw your mp3 filing and it level like normalizes levels does noise cancelling and it's really really good I mean AI

come a long way even like what we're doing we're talking on clean feed. net right now not a sponsor just it's what

I'm using today and you know versus you were talking about uh using crabot right

when I first started Craig bot sucked now you're saying it's far more defendable so many and that's just a few

years I mean uh imagine imagine being like Art Bell or something you know Coast to Coast AM radio and then coming

into the age of podcasting and all that stuff so um I was talking to my buddy uh Rusty

yesterday and he's he's been in the games industry his entire life I'm talking about like back in back in the

old days when people were riding all their own every new every game was a new custom engine kind of [ __ ] and you know

he he's just like one of those dudes like every time I talk to him it's just like a a wealth of knowledge of you know

just it's like talking to an old sage uh who's just seeing everything and

then we were just just comparing game development Now versus 10 years ago is a

huge stretch and then take that back 30 40 years it's not even the same thing

like porting uh you're you're a you're a retro old person like uh

the difference between porting games now where you basically just have three things you have to do you know you you

you want to be certified on Nintendo PlayStation and Xbox maybe if you're on a transitionary period different

versions of the same brand console um but if you rewind that to the

80s if you made a game and you wanted it to be on more than the thing you developed it for you basically had to

make a new game that might be completely different but with the same cover art

essentially on up to 30 different machines you know what I

mean yeah yes like now you know it's it's much easier CU like you [ __ ]

flip a switch in like unity and it's like where do you want this to go and you're like I don't know PS5 Xbox switch

and it goes here's each version good luck have fun right yeah are are you more of a console guy or a PC guy or I'm

more PC than anything else I you know I I have a bunch of console games I need

to [ __ ] get back to um you know backlog is ever growing and I [ __ ]

hate it um because you know I don't have time for everything but no I'm mostly

mostly PC it's the most convenient way for me to like for me to play

games I I have made a so I was always a I

wasn't much of a gamer honestly as kid like I definitely played video games and I my dad was actually pretty damn into

video games but for me it was just kind of like this thing you did for fun sometimes it wasn't like I never

identified as a gamer you know what I'm saying yeah so

I I think I don't really didn't get into it uh like PC gaming at all until I was

a full assult I was like 202 or 23 years old when I really like started playing

PC games and I at at first I went full PC Master race

like I was like if it do you know mouse and keyboard is superior you know I was really into competitive firstperson

Shooters and all that stuff and even though now I still primarily only play games on the computer I if I have to use

more than one hand or I can't use a controller one of the two I don't have time dud it's like come on like I love

the I love being just leaned back in my chair with my feet Pro up with a controller and all that sort of thing I don't I don't care about winning I don't

even care about competition at all uh I I want to enjoy like good

stories and I I found that that's that's something that I always had like uh even

though I kind of like it was almost an ego thing where I was like really hardcore about playing competitive quake

and stuff like that um but you know I would always like find that what I really enjoyed like what was making me

happy was playing like long form narrative RPGs and stuff like that and

now I'm I feel like I've come full form like I've shed that that I I want to I

don't necessarily want to call it toxic because I think it's just a good part of development but that need to be

constantly involved with the game like if I if I can genuinely play your game with just my hand on the mouse leaned

back or just a controller it's that's a huge Plus in my

book yeah you know I yeah I understand that like there was um cuz right now

it's steam next best and you know I'm doing this little Punch Out review kind of thing review is a generous term best

case um but like the new turtle game that's kind of like hay uh Splinter dat

I think it is um but like I said I found it a little easy and they were like we haven't heard that yet I'm like yeah

it's like I I went too hard into Haiti like I'm not I'm not a reliable opinion

of that and like at the same time I said you know I it's I'm more than happy to have a relax relaxing game to play um so

like yeah like you know it I I used to ask people what game they played for

relax what was their like wind down game and I I stopped asking this one just because I you know it was harder to fit

in or or what have you I don't remember the exactly it's been long but um but

like some people were like yeah I play League of Legends or I play DotA that's my wind down that's how I relax and it's

like you you don't understand what or how relaxing really can be until you're

like in the moment going oh [ __ ] this is actually helping me relaxed right so like you know I

100% uh support short games or I support being able to sit back with a your

controller and go to town cuz like what's Rel relaxing to you might not work for other people but like at the

same time who gives a [ __ ] as long as that helps you relax right like if if do

maternal is your relaxing game then like [ __ ] go nuts enjoy like relax enjoy

your time with you're not relaxing I you just don't like to relax if that's your game like I'm okay so here's the thing

with doom Eternal when I was playing because I have um I have a heart condition it's not like a big deal um

it's a upper vascular arhythmia I forget the the proper term the the upper chamber likes to go [ __ ] weird

sometimes um it's the least it's the lesser of the two uh uh issues when it

comes to arhythmia um cuz if the bottom chamber the bottom chamber makes clots the top chamber is just like take some

blood and there's no blood to give or like the bottom chamber is not open so it's just basically trying to like you jamming your finger into your hand or

what have you right um but anyway I have a little thing for that so I was using that check my pulse and like when I

first started playing Doom my pulse would be like I'd be running through that [ __ ] at like 150 160

170 and then by the end of the game by the end like and doing like hard challenges and stuff my pulse didn't

change my pulse would be sitting at like normal resting rate of like 60 or 70

like what it was before I was playing the game so like it is possible to relax

and play Doom maternal it's a weird it's a very weird thing to think about though

because like that game is not a game you should be relaxing with but like it is possible

I'm just throwing that out there it is weirdly possible for that game to be like nothing on your your blood your

blood pressure

I of course whatever you like it and everybody likes different things if you like listening to heavy metal music in

the bubble bath sure I mean um it it's so crazy

because like um even video games are so like diverse now in

terms of you know it like your name is link you know when when we're kids it's

like so cut and dry like that kind of video games means a certain thing and then now it runs the expanse of like

choosing what penis to put on your female character in your balers gate profile to you know uh animal crossing

and the only thing that the you you might like both games but I'm

saying like the the wide range of what video games means now is so different so

exactly you could have two people who both spend all of their time playing video games and have nothing else in

common the I think it used to be more of like a you know I I guess there was like

a are you a street fighter guy or are you a more I don't know that that was a dividing line but even that was kind of

later you know in comparison to say the difference between Zelda Sonic the

Hedgehog and Mario I think you like to say Mario so I'm trying to do it like you do

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Steam so I dated a I dated a girl from California for like seven eight years she used to give me [ __ ] for for how I

said Mario um yeah so like I don't I I say it the Canadian way I don't know my

my wife is from the Chicago area and I'm from Alabama so we have completely

different ways I I have worked on my accent as an adult to to Tred to be more not

palatable it's not like I think a Southern accent SE makes you sound dumb but just understandable to people when I'm

like that and then I just started talking to my neighbor and the guy just looked at me like I was an idiot and

he's like what the what the [ __ ] did you say to me bro and I said like hey how y'all doing

today and he's like what did you say I was like oh I'm sorry how are you doing

today sir and he's like oh we're doing pretty good man hang loose and I'm like all right well I got to work on on that

so um let's see what whatever what what are

like classic games that you like and and you know like let's kind of just stick

to say I don't know N64 time frame are

there any maybe lesser known titles from that that you would say like stick out to you in your memory I don't know why

that's just been on my radar a lot lately like unknown the 64 uh this so like luckily for you I

I was a six like I was a Nintendo kid I didn't really [ __ ] around of PlayStation until like a year before even after the

PS2 was out I want to say like I I got a PS2 late I got a PlayStation um but no

for the 64 I don't I don't know man um most of the games I would have played

were largely known you know like yeah um I I would assume I would make the

presumption or the Assumption because like you know uh goyon was a fantastic game [ __ ] inanity it's just chaos but

goon 64 um I think it's mystical Adventure starring goyon I think is the

the proper title because I think there's two of them um one's a s side scroller and one of them is like a an open

worldish you know action RPG or whatever like whatever you call call Zelda um you

know there was that there's Bomberman those were those were great um I didn't

I didn't play a lot of like weird lowkey titles um you know I I I think Mischief

maker is known enough but Mischief maker C punishment if you like real unreal

Shooters um which got a sequel on the Wii as well which was hilarious if you found it cheap what was the game where

you play as like a bumblebee Buck Bumble um Buck Bumble is so I don't I I don't know if I don't

know if Buck Bumble was a uh because it was a big meme for a while and I don't know if it was a meme because people

were like dunking on it because unironically Buck Bumble was made by the guys that made Star Fox yeah um and it

was I I I used to rent I rented that game numerous times I've eaten that game it's Buck pumble is unironically like an

incredibly fun game for the young people you there used to be this thing called renting

where you like went you went to a like a movie gallery or a blockbuster and you went to the a section where there were

physical video games and you you paid a money to take it home for the weekend

and then you had to bring it back and then sometimes you would do that multiple times with the same game I'm

just trying to help help out our young people um but yeah like you know it's

because if you're looking for like actual recommendations I don't know how good I am with that like sure if you

give me one sec I can I can pull up a quick and easy at what I have like at

quote unquote arms length um you know cuz like if you if you didn't grow up

with the 64 uh it would be easily understood like why some of like what

you would think would be the the more well-known um but you know like stuff like Gold N uh Perfect Dark which was

like the spiritual sequel to Golden n um were fantastic games uh you can never

go wrong with Mario Kart um Mario Party 2 or three were were fantastic if you

really wanted to [ __ ] up your hand um you'd play Mario Party 1 um and you know

I'm I'm going to make the Assumption you know you can play a lot of games you don't know what that means um Mario Party 1 had like one or two mini games

where it was like rotate the joystick in a a clockwise motion as fast as you can right and like Nintendo envisioned that

you would like calmly just take your thumb and you would just rotate it around which didn't work what what you

did is you would slam your [ __ ] Palm down and you would just go to town cranking as hard as possible um and what

that would immediately do is give you a blister and rip your palm open and your palm would just be a bloody [ __ ] mess

it was so bad Nintendo said if you send us proof of purchase of Mario Party we'll send you a [ __ ] power glove

that locks in to it um so like I'd avoid Mario Mario Party one just because you

snowboarding a classic the banjo Kazi games and then you know by extent uh Donkey Kong 64 some amazing rare games

um you know uh some there were some shitty games like uh I think it was

shitty um like Iggy wrecking ball or something where you literally played as like a [ __ ] bouncy ball with a face

and you could like latch on to [ __ ] I don't know um you know chameleon twist

they were interesting little games um like I'm literally just going through the games that I have immediately

available to me um you know but honestly I would say my recommendations would be

no different than like something from like um uh like most YouTubers biger

small channels like cultured vulture I think or culture vulture or whatever right right like he has some like for

for those kind of games yeah i' I'd honestly just say pull up some of those and see what they recommend because uh

it's I I have no deep Cuts is the the real the real like answer is I don't

have deep cuts and if I do I don't remember them as deep Cuts so I'm I'm a

terrible person to ask for this that might be a because honestly I think a lot of the things that you did say are

deep Cuts but uh maybe that what maybe you were the wrong person to ask for a deep

cut because you're such a game nerd in general that you would you would think of things that are sort of for most

people deep Cuts as like oh everybody knows Buck Bumble or whatever I think

the reason why people like Buck Bumble and it became a mous yeah the theme song like people love that theme song yeah I

like I I say this like unironically Buck Bumble is a fantastic game no you're not

the only person that has told me this like that's why I brought but what I mean is I don't know how many people say

that unironically right like I don't know how many people are saying it just because of the meme or or if they

dislike it because of the meme but yeah no like [ __ ] bumble's fantastic you hear a deep cut I like the castle the

Castlevania 64 I enjoyed it I had a good time they were interesting I I only

rented them once I can say that much the first one um the second one was far more palatable than the first one I remember

that I remember from like being 12 or whatever I even like Lord of Shadow on

the I think that was the PS3 and I think everyone hated that but I thought it was pretty damn good it was fun at least I

played the vast majority of the game um but I don't know I'm I'm a terrible

critic I've also noticed that like I I've tend to like things based on the

way they make me feel and then have a really difficult time articulating what I do or don't enjoy about it if that

makes sense so I would be like for instance I think I would be a terrible Q

tester I have done certainly lots of QA but it's like you know I'm saying like

hey you know change this or put this in your menu kind of stuff or you know I don't really like this part right here

but I don't I'm not like a I I could never give someone like out you know out of 10 scores or stuff like that it's

just not doesn't intuitively happen in my brain that way and I also like generally just want to say nice things

so I'm not harsh enough maybe in a lot of cases

like I want to find yeah yeah yeah I want to find something nice to

say yeah so like I know I understand what you're saying yeah I I don't have that problem just because for me I think

of like a seven out of 10 a good game like I don't sure I I hate the you know

what we've seen in the last I don't know 20 years now where like a five out of 10 means it's absolutely trash like no a

one out of 10 is trash a 5 out of 10 is 50 it's average you know for everyone outside of America

that's a pass like yeah okay that's also a thing in America like we we have like the 70 or above is yeah well that yeah

that was that's why I said it right so like I I to a degree understand why 70 is considered like the P but the problem

is now that like if a game gets a 70 people think it's [ __ ] like well no it's you know it's pass it's a it's like it's

a it's an average game like [ __ ] off I think I think on that note that

certainly it doesn't mean bad but the question that I'm looking for when I'm looking at a review is not good or bad

it's worth my time if that makes sense so I'm skimming for the nine and ups and

that doesn't mean that every game that's not a nine or above is [ __ ] at all and I just said that I liked Castlevania 64 so

don't don't think that I'm giving you any kind of new insight here I just mean like if I'm going through like I don't know like a magazine and there's like

God magazine remember those and and it would say I I write one so yes I I definitely remember those which one what

are you working on um it's what I started doing uh on the side just to uh my partner is a designer she's still in

design I I left that field um so to like give her something to do or I shouldn't

that sounds way worse Dam give her something to make sure she listen doing

design with yeah and like have fun doing instead of just like the same old corporate whatever yeah I started just

writing mini reviews so that she can do lay like a magazine stuff so like I

don't get it printed but like yeah yeah they're they're dead I know what you mean no I mean I still exist Fe fear Zen

is uh like at least the last month or whatever I'm like helping them with their Kickstarter in terms of like doing

pre-rolls on the show about it and everything and then there was reload and then before reload there was the you know E1 M1 and all that stuff like I

know people still like magazines I'm just saying back when I used to read magazines to figure out what games I

wanted to play yeah I'm looking for the the nine and up Club not because I think

everything that's below a nine is bad but I'm just like I only want to play the games that are like actually really

worth my time yeah um yeah and also like if you had limited funds right you were

you were aiming for for that right yeah yeah For Better or For Worse for

whatever the the ranking scale means today you know I just I just personally

don't just don't like it I don't like that you know we look at like an eight out of 10 or a N9 out of 10 and say well

that's not amazing like it's probably fine there's also taste too it's like

you know yeah I didn't like this game but you might really like it and and I think that it things like bugs like

things that break the game or like horrible UI issues those are problems

and that's what I'm good at pointing out right but in ter like is this

are you going to enjoy this story or style of gameplay I do not know the

answer to that I could say you know working in Boomer shooters for so long

if you like Quake you'll like and then I can name a hundred games that are exactly like Quake or Doom or whatever

you know and and the these are the ones that are the most like it and these are the ones that are the least like it and maybe you'll like it I don't know but I

can't tell you if you're GNA you know which one you're going to enjoy the most other than like knowing your individual

taste so making a broad brush review of a game in terms of its quality based on

anything that's not like objective criteria I don't know how to do that yeah yeah just tell you my opinion

that's that's also largely when I talk about games I don't talk about games I don't like I don't talk about games that

I wouldn't recommend I only talk about games largely speaking you know modern games there's the there's the better way

to put it for modern games if I don't like the game I'm probably not going to mention I'm probably not going to talk

about which is why most if not all of the little review things I do are just for

games that I think you should check out and like that's that's kind of the the metric of that I work by is you know do

I recommend checking it out and that's that's it you know I I I thought about making jokes about you know like uh five

out of 12 you know oranges or whatever like just nonsense stuff because you know the joke of it all that those mean

nothing anyway but like I sided more with just do I recommend it you know like it's

easier for me just to say I recommend this and then leave it at that you know yeah I got really used to thinking about

games in terms of like marketability too um so like is this genre popular right now

you know and when I mean popular I don't mean like do people like it I mean like does it actually generate money or also

you know does it have the n-word in it that you would be surprised what pops up you know some some crazy stuff uh and

then also kind of thinking about like how does it represent the brand too so

it was less about like you know quality whatever but like is this a good

fit for our library at this time even like you know do we really need another shooter maybe we should have some other

genre like that kind of thing I think that it it's interesting a lot of uh

companies sort of will you know put all put go all in on a

certain thing a certain topic a certain genre and like a hooded horse right they

only do strategy games now there's a lot of different types of strategy games don't me wrong but like they only do that for the longest time when I was at

slip gate it was like all games that are like doom hexon and Quake you know and then that got that

that changed over time and that was like a conscious change because we were like you know hey we really want to do other stuff we want to work Tempest Rising I

think is going to come out sometime next year and it's a it's like Command and

Conquer Style game and I think that's cool but uh yeah I I I really I really

am glad that I like I mentioned this a bit earlier just like getting into other genres but like getting out of the box

that I was originally in with first- person shooters has been huge speaking of first-person shooters and Nintendo

games Perfect Dark you mentioned it earlier right yeah yeah so one of my

listeners actually wrote in a question for you that I'm just now thinking about but did you play like the remaster of it

that was on like Xbox or whatever I actually tried playing the Xbox One and

for whatever reasons um there was a Shader issue and it I don't I I don't

I'm not you know I bought an Xbox uh a sad you know the the Xbox S All Digital

or whatever right right um horrible Mistake by the way you know I'm I'm never going to [ __ ] buy an all digital Edition console ever again um

mainly because like immediately after we got that my partner and I we bought it together immediately after doing that

realized we could have just [ __ ] asked for the disc version and paid the extra like 20 bucks because like you see

games on sale that we can't buy because of it right anyway yeah it it's collecting dust but it was like AOW a

less powerful version of like the Xbox um s or that that generation either

which way and like I don't don't know if it was an issue with that or the game itself but it did not it wasn't

rendering shaders properly so it was unplayable so no the sorry the short the long answer is no I I tried I couldn't

do it I just could not do it like physically I couldn't do it it wasn't like oh this is horrible I I you know

I'm against this it was just I physically could not do it like it was unplayable for me and I don't know why

um and I don't know enough about Xboxes to know if like I needed to do something

thing you know in settings it's just it's a console and my brain console just works right um but like no I didn't

Replay that one the only ones I've played are uh the the the 64 like the

physical like yeah physical Andor not physical but like actual the 64 version

not any remasters not ports or however you want to phrase it there's like some

weird examples of just like uh like classic Nintendo games that just ended up on the X Box 360 or something like

that I remember is it conquer Bad Fur Day just randomly had an just an Xbox

remake so those would have been because so what happened was rare um rare existed rare made conquer

at f a rare made perfect dark rare made banjo koui banjo Tui um Diddy Kong

Racing etc etc etc love ended up uh yeah it was you know it was a very like it

was a really interesting game you know the the DNA of it I think you can see in mod modern Mario Kart um intentional or

otherwise CU it's Nintendo you never know um but rare uh was bought by

Microsoft so like all of their non Mar or non Nintendo quote unquote

games or characters uh they eventually just stuck them into that collection and that's why you saw like the conquer

sequel on the Xbox and that's why you saw the rare replay where it was all of those rare games firing off onto uh onto

Xbox right mhm so that's why those popped up there is cuz rare was bought by uh by Microsoft and then turned into

the sea of Thieves Valley I don't know if they're doing other things um you know if they're happy that's fantastic

if they're not happy I hope they're given the chance to be happy at some point but yeah that's why you see you know all those old rare games popping up

there and nowhere else so do do you think that the the because I know there's supposed to be

Kyo about this too the perfect dart game on the Xbox like the new Xbox is that do

you have any insight on that I don't follow this stuff I think it's supposed to be kind of IMI um I'm really hoping

that it takes the place of ASX because you know we were getting another DSX and

then it was canceled then we were getting another one after um after embracer bought but bought everything

they could [ __ ] get their hands on and that was canel that was theree um yeah so like uh so like you know I'm I'm

looking forward to it strictly from the standpoint of uh cuz like the DSX games

weren't like I cyberpunk they were kind of like the beginning days of cyber Punk and I'm I'm I you know DSX was the first

MIM that I played that I got into that I enjoyed um so like that that cyberpunk

level of tech and everything I'm that's like what you know that's kind of my like uh Holy Grail in in terms of what I

like about cyberpunk um so I'm you know I have high hopes for it because like it's probably going to be just immi

enough just like you know the the last few days X's um it's probably going to be

cyberpunkish enough to be you know everything I want everything I've wanted

or everything I've like needed or what have you right so like you know that's that's basically my insight is that this

is going to be hopefully the next s like the next day the next ASX that I can sit

back enjoy I hope it's m Sim because like they they I think they taunted about it or you know implied it was and

I'm really hoping it does like even if it's just little Hub World stuff um I'm all for it because I like know the idea

of [ __ ] around before doing anything of importance uh in a you know in a in a

world where with remlit toe I'm I'm all for I really love immersive Sim as a as

a genre like DSX obviously uh I would say that like gloomwood for instance

like I can't wait for that to be out out and uh like there were there have been a

few recently that have like kind of popped up as demos I think that U I

can't remember the name of it but there was this one that I played a demo of that I saw at egx like a last year or

something like that that was it was like a MIM that also involved time travel

then I think that new blood hired the guy and I thought they were going to publish that but it turns out they just put him on glimwood which is fine I mean

that's cool too maybe they'll finish his title also afterwards but they're really hard to develop um I kind of like

Loosely got to see how things went with uh with cord Decay for a while you know because I was like um before the you

know the whole Embrace or you know saber breakup and all that craziness that went

on with that I was going to be the brand manager for cord and it just like I was

in love with that the whole idea of that game I can't say anything about what it plays like because obviously you know

but gosh I'm so excited about that entire genre are there any other like

kind of newer ones that are on your radar uh yeah yeah you know for example

like uh man probably screw up the name I spoke to one of the devs recently uh

Anastasia umia it's basically um it's basically Jurassic

Park MIM oh that sounds doe um I'm I'm I'm I'm probably not really selling it

the way they would want me to or want people to but basically like you're you're exploring a like a a like an isar

or whatever where they were making dinosaur mutant thing um and it's it's an MIM um you know the demo was out I

think the demo still might be out the kickstarter is done now they got funded luckily um but you know that one I'm

excited for Cu uh you know it's it felt it felt nice it seemed interesting um them getting

funding means they hopefully escaped the hopefully escaped the uh the MIM

curse you know um but yeah no like uh off the top of my head unfortunately no

just because I especially right now cuz like inest

I'm like just like slamming so many games that it's kind of hard to

actively be like yeah this is an MIM this is one that I played a while ago that I thought

cool but yeah that's the one that like comes to mind the the most recent one at

the very least um there's definitely been other ones um but like on the spot I'm not going to be able to remember

their name um you know there was another one

umia I think um it's it's it's going to be labj cuz it's I I believe it's like

actively from like that area too um but like it it has high hopes of being a

massive game and like I don't know how they're going to do it I wish them the best of luck in doing it um but it looks

like it's going to be a massive goddamn game um and it played it played interestingly enough like it played well

clean enough when I tried it so like I'm looking forward to that one um I don't

know if I don't know if I'm looking forward to it more just to see them pull off the scope or the the game play it

was like it's it sat on like a weird line in that sense um other than those

you know stalker 2 I think that's I think that's the best I think that's the best you're going to get out of me with

my you know jumble of nonsense in my head trying to remember what all I've

tried recently that's actually MIM and trying to like pick it out from all the other stuff you know

well I mean this could be the last question because I think we've been here for like two hours which is for me short

but I know you gota you're what it's like much later there right you're East Coast time uh yes East Coast for me yeah

yeah let's let's wrap this up pretty soon here but uh the last question I wanted to ask you was basically like what um what games are you the most

excited about right now and that could be something you've played recently or that you're looking forward

to uh right now [ __ ]

um f i don't even know so here's here's a big problem I don't know what's actually coming out you know I I walk I

go to like every now and then I'll go into like GameStop um I keep wanting to call it EB Games that's what it was in

Canada I remember Rhino games and then it was EB Games and then it was GameStop that's pretty funny I yeah I

don't think I don't think we had that in can I think it was just EB and then like that was it then they they all turned or

they were buying other game stores that I just never heard of they were just buying up all the local game stores like so like EB bought out Rhino and

then EB got bought by uh GameStop yeah yeah yeah um but like like a Russian

doll at this point [ __ ] is um like at this point the because like what sorry

so what I was saying is what we do is we like go into GameStop and like me and my girlfriend will look at games and just

be like oh [ __ ] this is a thing that's coming oh [ __ ] this exists right so like

it's really hard because some of the games I'm looking forward to are games that have been out and I just haven't had time to buy them or pick them up

after buying right like um uh uh ref Fantasia or or whatever it's pronounced

I'm looking forward to getting a chance to play that you know I uh armored Core six I want to you know I want I look

forward to that one dragon Dogma 2 I'm looking forward to that when I have time when I can you know have time to pick it

up um getting back to Elden ring um you know like the the new Dragon Ball game

the new Gundam battle breaker um you know games that are already decidedly out and I'm just behind the times um but

yeah like I don't think there's anything on the top of my head that I'm

like sitting patiently waiting for like you know the you know some easy answers

could be like I'm waiting for gloomwood to be able of Early Access before I touch it only because it's an m and there's going to be so much stuff um you

know I'm waiting for cultic 2 because not cultic I don't know if it's being called cultic 2 the next episode of

cultic yeah part two episode two whatever um because like the first one was just so much [ __ ] fun like Soo

I'm looking forward to that coming out of Early Access have you had Jason on your show from

cultic yeah he was actually one of uh one of the earlier episodes I want to

say um [ __ ] I want to say like he was like the first gear give or take um he's

just a great guest like he's one of those guys that just you could you get Jason talking he could talk forever he's so great really really sweet guy too

yeah like yes you know he was he was probably my one of my first long episodes yeah yeah but like yeah like he

I spoke to him uh well before c cultic came out I think the demo one of the

demos had came come out um yeah he was he was episode 24 the

first the first year I'm sorry I was just going through everything for for what I had um so like you know there

there are games I'm looking forward to it's just the problem with me is I don't

know what's out I don't know I forget about games and like their their

existence until I see them it's like oh [ __ ] this was something I wanted to play this was something I was looking forward to right um you know just just because

like the backlog you know I sometimes just fall off of a [ __ ] game to play demos and then like I don't get to go

back to the game like you know death Loop for example I've been trying to find time to go back to death Loop but

at the same time I've been trying to find time to go back to some PS2 games that I I want to replay or I want to you

know when I was younger I never fully beat kind of thing right yeah so like it's

just I it's a shitty answer I know but like yeah it's there's a bunch of stuff I'm looking forward to but like in the

moment of trying to think of it I don't unfortunately I don't know it's just I'll do a lot of stuff everybody go play

scald uh against the black cowy it's the best game I've played in I don't know how long it's it's amazing this is link

indorses um no man I really really appreciate your time I know it's uh it's getting pretty late so we'll Turn You

Loose but uh it's always a pleasure to talk to you and pick your brain always always learn new stuff too because

you're way deeper in a lot of it than I am so um anytime you want you can

welcome to come back and I I'm G try to get back on your show when uh when we get ready to start pushing Stellar

Valkyrie out the door so we'll talk yeah definitely you know anytime anytime just

hit me up we can we can definitely work that out uh sorry that sounded way too

uh uh corpor in my head um but yeah yeah 100% you know whenever you're ready to

come back more than more than happy to it like um I just today actually recorded my first returning guest um I

had Dana nigh Andale she came back and um the new game I'm calling them new

game plus that's the that's the goal we can I might change my mind after like the second one because you know might

first something else we'll [ __ ] find out yeah but what are you gonna call the the third time that they come with the

show I'm just going to keep calling New Game Plus new game new game plus plus maybe yeah um but yeah no so like you

know if depending on the the context in which you want to come back yeah 100% you know if you want to come back just

for you know New Game Plus where it's even less tently related to video games

because you know today I don't I don't think I really spoke to Dana about video games I think we spent like 40 minutes

talking about a movie um or something right but like you know depending on the

context you know I'm more than I'm more than happy to talk with you in the same

FR context of like how the other episodes were framed or something more like this where it's just you know

there's a one driving for force and anything else is just sort of what we get to with it because that's how New

Game Plus is intended to go for me at least are you uh so are you on YouTube

now yes I I throw all my stuff up on YouTube yeah there was a there was a period where I didn't um I still don't

have good um title cards or or thumbnails or whatever that's work in progress but you you got the show on

there is it RSS Fe driven or are you doing it manually uh manual yes I don't know what the what

you asked their sory oh no you can put your RSS feed for your podcast straight into YouTube and it autop populates now

you don't have to yeah um so I upload all of mine as videos I don't know if I

can just dump the MP3 to like not have the video uh if that's a thing send me

how to do that I'll te now there awesome uh because yeah because what I'm doing

now is um I make the video and the video is what goes up I presume I used to have

um Google podcast or whatever the [ __ ] they called that that was RSS fed out of um uh Spotify for podcasters whatever

the [ __ ] they call themselves now um used to be anchor and that's in my head how it is it was set up that way so I

don't know if that is what populates the podcast or not so yeah

please show me I'll figure that [ __ ] out because uh yeah if it's just an audio thing I do not have just an audio thing

well the re such a great way to end the reason why I say is like folks who are

listening please go check out the red tunic podcast it's it's [ __ ] everywhere

it's it's everywhere as far as I know it is on all the places that matter or that are

easily accessible uh in the very least there there there we go there's the plug

yeah man all right uh let's let's call it for the day we we'll see you next time

sure thank you to link for coming on the show really appreciate his time and uh you know like if you haven't already

definitely for real go check out red tunic podcast give him a shout out let him know that I sent you of course I'm sure he'll know if it comes from our

podcast and I I want to say thank you to everyone who is supporting us on patreon so thank you to Shannon to bridge to

Michael to Frederick to Brad and to dots and if you would like to be mentioned on

that list all you got to do is uh become a paid member over on our patreon page I do occasionally give stuff out to free

tier members and that's great and I I definitely want to build that up and have more people kind of just getting involved getting the updates and

everything but I do have to reward the people who are actually rewarding me so

uh just consider that if you want to support just head over to ineke keep.com and it's on the support page uh there's

lots of other ways to support as well you can buy merch off our merch store uh I'll be making new merch hopefully in

the near enough future it's a it's a bit of a weird transition right now as I'm getting ready to move actually but

hopefully once we're settled and get a little bit of cash flow and we'll be able to do that and then uh what else oh

yeah we can make like donations and stuff too we have uh PayPal we have uh

what's that thing called there's like a I have to I feel so unprofessional if you're listening to this

[Music] podcast there should be a way where you can donate through Captivate and I'm

going to not look it up right now because I don't deserve it but maybe next time I'll have familiarized myself

with the way to do this but I believe it uses uh stripe payer but I mean if you just want to like throw a tip off this

something really really cool not expecting the podcast is uh it's totally free but if you want to get it early get

mentioned on the list we'll maybe get some free key drops and also the biggest

perk I think is access to our private Discord for supporters uh where we do a lot of talking about all kinds of crazy

topics so that's where I post most of the news that you would get uh as a

exclusive member of our club or whatever I don't know I don't like to exclude people I don't feel comfortable saying I

do like to reward people who who put their money about this and help out till

next time gosh I'm so [ __ ] off today I love you God love you till next time

stay in the keep