What happens when the survival skills that protected you as a child begin holding you back as an adult?

In this powerful episode of Adult Child of Dysfunction, Tammy sits down with author, poet, and memoirist Sarah Hanson to discuss growing up in a dysfunctional family, the hidden impact of emotional abuse, and the lifelong journey of reclaiming your authentic self.

Sarah shares her experience of becoming the family peacekeeper, learning to navigate a volatile parent, and eventually realizing that healing required grieving the family she wished she had while accepting the reality of the one she was given. Together, Tammy and Sarah explore generational trauma, people-pleasing, hypervigilance, boundaries, self-compassion, and the courage it takes to stop living for someone else's approval.

They also discuss Sarah's new memoir, Conjuring the Hurricane: The Best Way to Save Your Life Is Any Way You Can, a powerful story about leaving behind what harms you and creating a life that finally fits.

If you've ever questioned your childhood, struggled with family boundaries, or felt responsible for everyone else's emotions, this conversation will remind you that healing is possible—and that you have permission to save your life.

Guest Links

Instagram: @sarahhansonwrites

Threads: @sarahhansonwrites

Substack: @sarahhansonwrites

Website: SarahHansonWrites.com

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Well, hello everybody and

welcome back to another episode

2

of Adult Child of Dysfunction.

3

Today we have with us Sarah Hansen.

4

She is a poet and memoirist writing

about trauma embodiment, and the

5

lifelong act of returning to oneself.

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Her work has been featured in HuffPost

the Literary Times and the Ceramic Review.

7

The Minnesota Native lives in Minneapolis

with her husband and three cats.

8

You can find [email protected],

9

which I will put in the show notes so

you don't have to stop driving and write.

10

So welcome Sarah.

11

Hi Tammy.

12

Thank you so much for having me.

13

Oh yeah.

14

It's always good to have these

conversations because I, I read the bios

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and then I read about like some of the

deeper stuff that's kind of, you write

16

personally and I'm always like, oh, I

feel like we live these parallel lives.

17

And, it just, goes to show there's so many

millions of people out there that lived.

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Dysfunction.

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Literally.

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So true.

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And, so many of us reach adulthood and

realize, sort of slowly and then all

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at once as we start to contextualize.

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Behaviors that we have now and trace them

back to our childhoods and be like, oh,

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that was not at all super functional.

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Like, oops.

26

Right.

27

Yeah.

28

But I mean, at the same time we also

try, and I'm sure you'd realize I

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can't beat myself up about that stuff.

30

I had no idea.

31

I was literally, I say to people,

you were living your norm.

32

Exactly.

33

You didn't know people.

34

I remember when I went through a

12 step program one time and they

35

were like, are you gonna make amends

to all the people you did wrong?

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And I'm like, yeah.

37

And they were like, and then I

would say something like, oh yeah,

38

when I was running to the grocery

store to steal food on my lunch

39

break because my mom didn't feed me.

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And they're like, well,

did you call that store?

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I'm like, okay.

42

That was survival mode.

43

Like those little things.

44

We're just part of the big picture.

45

That was just a thing.

46

So yes, if you're out there and

you were a general manager and I

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stole from your store in Worcester,

Massachusetts, I'm truly sorry, but

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I'm sure that they have long since

pardoned the, small, child crime.

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Yeah.

50

And as a matter of fact, I always

think about that to this day as

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I'm pretty sure they knew I was

doing it and never said anything.

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Because how do you go in, do the

aisles, grab grapes, grab cookies,

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stuff your pockets and leave five

days a week and nobody see you?

54

Yeah.

55

But that's so true that there are adults,

that, don't know how to help, but, kind of

56

have these small ways of helping children.

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when they recognize what's kind

of maybe going on for a child

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like, and bless those people.

59

Yes.

60

And I always say that, especially around

the holidays, because while, 4th of July

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and, New Year's Eve and all these holidays

that everybody is so having so much fun.

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I don't know about you and maybe

we can even talk about that, but

63

holidays were traumatic for me,

like, because it always ended badly.

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Mm-hmm It always started really nice, a

family picnic or going to a friend's house

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and then it always ended up really badly.

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Everybody completely.

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Wasted and sometimes somebody getting hurt

and So I am very aware on those holidays

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that drinking holidays are not always fun.

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Like they're not good for some children.

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So I'm always aware, I always watch, like

if I'm at a picnic and you see a kid.

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Off to the side or even a teenager.

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I always made it a point as I

became an adult to, to reach out

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and just kind of like do some

non-drinking fun activity with them.

74

Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's so true.

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I have this story of.

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I call it like the dark Christmas

79

together and my dad was, really a

difficult, man, the house revolved

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around managing his, emotions, his,

keeping his volatility from rising.

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and I was really skilled

in that, and so by.

82

I don't know.

83

I was maybe 22 at the time,

and my two brothers were there

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and we were in a new house.

85

And I remember my younger brother sat

down like for dinner and my dad was really

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upset, was like, you're in my chair,

like for, you're in my spot for dinner.

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And my brother was like,

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And he was like, kind of treated it like

a joke like, Hmm, is this your spot?

89

Like it's a brand new house, And my dad.

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Completely lost his mind.

91

he, he went upstairs.

92

He refused to come down

for the rest of dinner.

93

he refused to, he was just yelling from

the top of the banister and Christmas

94

was a complete wash at that point, right?

95

At best, and I remember the next

day, it was just the two of us

96

in the house and I went out and

I was the one who could kind of.

97

Talk sense into him, And so I spent

four or five hours talking to him

98

about like, dad, that was not okay.

99

That's not okay.

100

The way that you treated.

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My brothers, you need to call them.

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And then my stepmom got home from

work later that day and the role

103

that I had in the family was Broker

a sense of peace in a family that

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really was, on eggshells at all times.

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And like you said, the heightened

experience around holidays and what

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should be good fun days that kind

of never were, they, I think the

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expectation around how the day was gonna

go or what it was gonna look like, and

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then when that would get thwarted in.

109

Tiny ways, right?

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Like adjusting where you

sit at a dinner table.

111

he just couldn't manage that,

that expectation was not gonna be

112

met outside of, anger and Right.

113

kind of forcing the entire rest of the

family to accommodate his, quote needs

114

or wants, and then a complete blow up

when we either couldn't or wouldn't.

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Right.

116

So that's really common.

117

Yeah, absolutely.

118

And it's funny that I look back

at it now and you have this

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sense of why didn't I see it?

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And it's so hard, they talk about being

inside the jar and when you're inside

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the jar you can't look outside and see

somebody scrambling to get out of the jar.

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very hard even for me to fathom, like

why I would get excited every time.

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We did have these social things because

I was like, maybe it'll be different.

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This'll be different.

125

And it's like,

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you know that old saying, was it Ben

Franklin, you, or who is it that said

127

Einstein waiting for something to be the

insanity is doing the same thing over and

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over again expecting a different result.

129

but we do it.

130

We as children especially, and.

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It wasn't the one I think about,

and this makes me laugh so hard

132

because it just passed, was St.

133

Patrick's Day My mom was

very Irish and every St.

134

Patrick's Day, she used to

drag us to these Irish bars.

135

And we used to have to sing that song.

136

there were green alligators and

long neck geese, and she used

137

to make me get up on stage.

138

And by that point everybody was drunk

and I used to have to sing it and

139

I was humiliated every single year.

140

Yeah.

141

Well now every St.

142

Patrick's day I wake up and I'm

like, there were green alligators.

143

But it was traumatic back then, Yeah.

144

And I think one of the things that is so

beautiful about us as children, but also

145

so tragic, is how hope filled we are, that

the adults around us will get it together.

146

That this will be the time that we

will have the, experience that other.

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Like our friends and peers get to have.

148

and then just the crushing disappointment

when that doesn't come to pass, because of

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course it wasn't going to go the way that

we wanted it to because that would require

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them to act in ways they had never acted.

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but that, hope, followed me.

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My entire life until my, dad passed,

that I, I had consistent hope that

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he would, do things differently or

he would see me as, an individual

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rather than an extension of him that,

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Have some sort of repair that he could

reflect, on his own behavior and that

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none of that happened, And because of

course it wasn't going to, of course not.

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But let me ask you this then, for

the listeners, 'cause I know this

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is very important for people.

159

So how did you, hold that

compassion and how did you

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keep that relationship without.

161

Minimizing what was happening to you

or did that not even become an issue

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while you were still in the house?

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so after I left the house,

in my twenties I had a very

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minimal contact with my father.

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and, When it became clear.

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So my stepmother passed in, 2016.

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and that's when it became really clear to

us that, he was in a cognitive decline,

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that we kind of weren't super aware of.

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'cause we had been, all of

us kids, the three of us had

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dissipated from the house and.

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So by 2016 it, became more

clear that he needed more help.

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but I was also very firm, that it was

not, he was never gonna be living with us.

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He was not going to, and so, he moved

into a, a community of care and I was in

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a lot of contact with his caregivers, with

the people at, but I would say to them.

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I am, I am here to help

financially with, the logistics.

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But this is, not something that I'm

gonna be, physically present for in

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a way that you might see with a lot

of other residents that, are here.

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and.

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he would, early on he would send,

upwards of a dozen emails a day,

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and I had to like mute my phone.

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I eventually had to send it to spam.

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I had to block my dad's emails, and

I, I would go through and I would

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kind of like just scan them to see if

there was anything I really needed.

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But there were, it was very chaotic.

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And I asked him if he would stop.

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I asked him if he could, and

he, couldn't or wouldn't.

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and so I had to.

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Implement ways for myself that were, I,

I blocked my own father's email address.

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and a lot of that was just around

reducing the harm that I was gonna

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let him cause me as an adult.

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right.

192

And that.

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for the first time that other

people would step in, where that

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had been my role my entire life.

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Like I, often say I learned to

speak my dad's emotional range

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before I learned to speak English.

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I knew how to calculate his moods,

his needs, from a very, young age.

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And, in the last, probably.

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Eight years of his life.

200

It was a slow and kind of sad process

of unlearning that and saying, I am not

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going to step back into these habits.

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I've built a life that

functions differently.

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And it is sad that he was alone.

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I mean, he was in a community.

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He had people, he wasn't like alone,

But it's like, it's sad that this man

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doesn't have his family around him and

visiting, the way that other residents do.

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But that was also.

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40 years worth of behavior

that had led to that.

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absolutely.

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And your loyalty, just because he's

your dad does not, make you go back.

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And I can remember, I mean, so many

people struggle with that, with that

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guilt of, oh, she's your mother.

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How could you?

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And she's your fa, he's your father,

and how could you, and I'm like.

215

How about we turn, the tables here and

say she was your mother, how could she?

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Right.

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Nobody says that like, and we have to turn

that around because yes, it's, yes, you

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have that loyalty, but there has to be for

your own sanity and for your own peace of

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mind, there has to be those boundaries.

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It has to be, yes.

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And I think it confuses people who have

healthy relationships with their parents.

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That's most often where I

hear, oh, but he's your dad.

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Or, and it's like, yeah, if I had had.

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40 years of a close loving relationship

where I was seen and appreciated

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and valued for the human that I was

and not the prop that I played, I

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would've had a very different reaction

to his cognitive decline and, and.

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care needs.

228

I have a very warm

relationship with my mother.

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They divorced when I was one.

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and it would be a really different

story if, if it was my mom who

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had, but I was like, if I, I had

40 years of being treated poorly.

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and that doesn't go away

just because now he's needy.

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and.

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and I kind of like with my in-laws early

on who are very close with, my husband,

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I don't, they didn't really understand.

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and it was like, if I had 40 years of

the relationship that you have with your

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son, of course I would react differently.

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and.

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that's not what I have to build on.

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And that, can be really confusing, I think

for people who have just normal family

241

conflicts or normal, where the dynamics

are, not unhealthy from the start.

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And I was like, I, I am acting

in a way that is consistent with.

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How I was brought up and no,

you don't understand and I'm

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glad you don't understand that.

245

That's much healthier.

246

Like Right.

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But also exactly, this is now

the framework that I have to

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operate in and it looks different

than what a lot of families do

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and, joyfully get to operate in.

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and I've, stopped explaining

that, now, which feels better.

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Yeah, you don't have to, I mean,

for whatever reason, you don't.

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I've said that all the time.

253

You don't have to explain if it doesn't

feel right to you and it hurts you.

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You have every right as a human

being to get out of the situation

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and you can stand back from afar.

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You can watch your father in a

nursing home or wherever he is

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and or a rehab or wherever it is.

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You can still have empathy and

compassion for what he's going through.

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Now, that doesn't mean you

let go of everything that you

260

went through or who he was.

261

I mean, it was a long time before I saw

my mom as a violently tormented soul.

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Yeah.

263

And I could say, okay, now I understand.

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I don't love what happened to me.

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Obviously I hate it.

266

Mm-hmm.

267

But I understand why she was.

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And in that I found peace.

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You found peace.

270

And that forgiveness, like where I

don't hold any animosity or anger and.

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It's taken me a long time, but

I kind of took that and turned

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it into something positive.

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I love you, cat.

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Thank you.

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And I'm just kinda laughing because

you let him walk in front, whatever.

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But I do laugh because

I don't edit my videos.

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And one time I was like talking to

this lady and the cat, she was rubbing

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the cat's head and so it was just

his butt hole, right in the, oh no.

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So I'm thinking about, I was like,

I might need to chop that one up

280

a little bit because literally it

was right in the little black dot.

281

There couldn't have been, more on point.

282

It couldn't have been more on point.

283

And I'm like, okay, so for

the viewers, but that's funny.

284

but yeah, you can't, you can be

compassionate and you can have

285

empathy and everything else.

286

That does not mean that you.

287

Deny all of your own boundaries

and step back in period.

288

Right.

289

And one of the things that you mentioned,

about seeing your mom in more totality.

290

as I was writing, this book, one

of the things that I started to

291

unravel was the generational trauma.

292

It started with the effects that

it had on me, because that was what

293

I had the most experience with.

294

But I started to pull at the

threads of like, what must

295

have happened to my dad too?

296

Form him in this way.

297

I believe we come in with some things,

pre-wired into us, but also, how he was

298

shaped and I think if my dad were still

alive and you were to ask him if he was

299

a good dad, I think he would say yes.

300

And I think it is possible to probable

that he was objectively a better

301

dad than his father was to him.

302

I don't.

303

Know that my family

history is a little murky.

304

but I believe that that's probably

true, in an objective sense.

305

and it is also true that it was

still deeply harmful, for me to

306

experience him as a father, which

led me to what was it like for him to

307

experience his own father and then.

308

We get farther and farther up the

generational chain of people who

309

did not have a lot of emotional

skill, who, did not have the kinds

310

of, vocabulary that we have now,

or ability to relate to children.

311

And so that has.

312

Helped me widen my view to see that this

didn't just arrive, my dad didn't arrive

313

whole, and do this to me on purpose.

314

Right.

315

Exactly.

316

Treat me this way.

317

He had his own shapes and

reasons and, ways that he

318

came into to become my father.

319

I have expanded empathy for him, for

his dad, for, my great-grandfather,

320

and, how much they may have actually

done some work to untangle that and

321

still how not effective or not as

complete of work as it would have felt

322

healthy as a child to be parented by.

323

Right.

324

And you look at the.

325

The progression or the progress

that we've made as a, whole?

326

Mm-hmm.

327

Like you said, it's different now.

328

Mm-hmm.

329

It's different.

330

my father was molested as

a child by an uncle and.

331

Never went to therapy, never got help.

332

Went to Vietnam, saw atrocities

in Vietnam that he only spoke

333

about when he was really, drunk.

334

Yeah.

335

And tormented And like you

say, he didn't have help.

336

He didn't.

337

So.

338

I, gave it a term one time and

people were laughing at me so

339

hard and it was like a PO do.

340

Someone's like, what is a PO do?

341

I'm like, I am a product of a

completely dysfunctional upbringing.

342

And I named it like, I was like, they're

like, wow, that's so poetic, Tammy.

343

Not, but it's like what you're

seeing is a culmination of all of

344

my experience, all of my everything.

345

Mm-hmm.

346

Until I say I don't wanna be like I am.

347

you might have this, my experiences

and my culmination of all of my,

348

Yeah, and I think about, I spent

a lot of my, thirties as I was

349

starting to, well, let me backtrack.

350

So in my childhood and early twenties,

I thought my dad was the greatest dad

351

in the world, because he thought he

was the greatest dad in the world.

352

And so I aligned myself with that.

353

then in my thirties, as I started.

354

Looking at, I had just gotten out of

a really abusive, emotionally abusive

355

relationship and tracing back like, it's

like I'm, so smart, I have two degrees.

356

How did this happen to me?

357

how did I end up choosing to live

with a man that was, ill tempered and.

358

Angry alcoholic man with a handgun

collection, And the danger that

359

I had put myself in voluntarily.

360

and as I started to trace that back,

to how similar my ex's behaviors

361

were to things that felt really

familiar to me from childhood.

362

And it was, a game.

363

I knew how to play.

364

It was a role.

365

I knew how to, up until.

366

It completely broke apart, And so when I

was in my thirties and started unwinding,

367

A lot of my dad's behaviors and how that

had influenced, what I decided on for

368

safety in my thirties was I was going to

filter every decision that I made of, does

369

this bring me closer to being like my dad?

370

Or does this bring me closer

to being different from my dad?

371

so even things like, am I

gonna have a salad for dinner?

372

It's like my dad wouldn't let a vegetable

cross, his threshold, And so every

373

decision I was making, was sort of.

374

Consciously being filtered through that.

375

which was great until I realized

all the ways that as a person, I

376

was designed in some ways, like

I sneezed just like my father.

377

Like it's very loud and there's

no way I can change how I sneeze.

378

And that was very upsetting to me for a

long time because I have this behavior

379

that is so closely replicating someone

that I'm trying to distance myself from.

380

And so.

381

learning to pull apart.

382

What are the voluntary ways that I

show up in the world and how do I

383

define that versus what is just a

human trait that I inherited from the

384

person who I have half of his genetics.

385

that just runs through me.

386

And so there are gonna be

things I do that are like him.

387

I'm not gonna be able to really,

those aren't the things I'm gonna

388

spend my energy trying to change.

389

Right.

390

I'm gonna be working on the

behaviors and the things that

391

I don't wanna pass on anymore.

392

Like this ends with me.

393

Exactly.

394

And not only that, like if you're

out there listening and you're

395

like, wow, that's a really good.

396

Attack.

397

Like that's a really good strategy

and it really is a good strategy.

398

But maybe if you're out there listening

and you wanna turn it a different

399

way for yourself, you could not say

necessarily how I consciously make

400

these decisions to not be like him.

401

But maybe, I always say,

this is my ultimate goal.

402

Mm-hmm.

403

I want peace, I want stability.

404

I wanna be in a good relationship.

405

I wanna have good finances.

406

So, and take my perfect version

of me and every decision I make.

407

Knowing that it was my parents that

made me have that initial reaction,

408

Say, okay, so now I'm up against this.

409

Do, does it bring me further

to my goal of where I wanna be?

410

Or does it bring me farther away from it?

411

So even taking the aspect of the

person that harmed you out of

412

it is a, an amazing strategy.

413

Yes.

414

And I think that that is

one of the things that.

415

When I was younger, I didn't have a

map, for myself that was different at

416

all from what my dad wanted for me,

because I grew up an extension of him,

417

And so everything that I did

well reflected well on him.

418

And so he would,

encourage and reward that.

419

And the things that I did, that he either

didn't resonate with, I was a writer.

420

I mean, I am a writer, but he didn't.

421

That didn't land with him.

422

And so that sort of like fell by

the wayside as I realized, oh, he

423

doesn't, this, this doesn't fit

with his idea of an ideal daughter.

424

and so as I began to decide for myself

what does something outside of what

425

my dad wants for me look like and how.

426

Am I going to execute that plan

knowing he's not gonna like it, like

427

knowing he's not gonna support it.

428

When my whole life previously had

been designing and, cutting and,

429

really, crafting myself into the

perfect mirror image of him really.

430

And then to be like.

431

I don't actually want to be

a mirror image of my father.

432

Right.

433

I want, I have my own whole set of

gifts and things that I came here to

434

do, and I had to let go of the idea of

getting him on board with that plan.

435

Mm-hmm.

436

Like he was never gonna be on board

with me being different from him.

437

He was never gonna be on board with me.

438

Doing life in a way that

he didn't understand.

439

and I tried, there was a period of

time where I tried to get him excited

440

about, and I'm, gonna do this and I'm

gonna do, and he, it always fell flat.

441

He never, it never registered that this

was a valid way to exist because it was

442

so different from how he was existing.

443

and I ultimately really

had to decide that his.

444

Like, not only did he not have to

sign off on it, he doesn't even

445

have to understand what I'm doing.

446

He doesn't, and I wouldn't go to him

towards the end of his life for validation

447

or even to see me, I would tell him

things about my life knowing full well it.

448

It's not gonna land for him.

449

He's gonna have pushback.

450

and I'm telling him more 'cause

I just wanted to start showing

451

up and be seen authentically.

452

But I wouldn't do it with the expectation

that he was ever gonna meet me in that

453

or see clearly or approve or get it.

454

He, was never gonna do

any of those things.

455

so I really moved who I went to for.

456

Validation and permission.

457

to people who really understand

me, I have a post-it.

458

I don't think I have it in my

office, but I have a post-it that

459

started with the five people whose

opinions actually mattered to me.

460

Who could, pull me by the

shoulder and say, Hey, wait up.

461

Like I need, we need

to have a conversation.

462

And if you aren't one of those

five people, which included my

463

husband, my mom, and like three very

close friends, your opinion of me.

464

I'm not taking input from everyone.

465

Who I am as a person is not a group

project for everyone to decide on.

466

And like, we're not doing,

you know, Sarah by committee.

467

so I'm gonna do what I wanna do and

these few people have permission.

468

be like, oh, hang on, let's rethink that.

469

But if you're not on that

list, have an opinion.

470

Think what you want, but it's not

really gonna change how I move

471

through the world in a meaningful way.

472

And that was a big step toward freedom

for me, from detangling, from just

473

this constant set of pressures.

474

Um, well, it's like this.

475

It's, it's like this codependent

world where you are, your happiness

476

is dependent on what other people

think, and you can't live like that.

477

You cannot live, you just can't.

478

You just can't.

479

It's, it'll, it'll drag you down and

you can't ever, especially when you're

480

dealing with someone that is so rigid

and so stuck in their ways and drinking

481

and not even being there half the time.

482

You can't try to live around

those standards and you, you

483

just have to be your own person.

484

Absolutely.

485

But what would you say is, so let's

say you're listening to this and we

486

do have a lot of people, I get a lot

of comments that people are just now,

487

they're in their thirties, forties,

fifties and sixties, just realizing how

488

incredibly unhealthy their family was.

489

Yeah.

490

What do you give them as the first

step to their first act of permission?

491

What is it?

492

Oh, I think it's to grieve the

family that you didn't get.

493

You know?

494

It is so sad.

495

It, I, I mean, it is so, it is sad.

496

I was sad before I was mad.

497

and I was sad because I, and, and

it really came about for me seeing

498

my husband, interacting with his

family and how, and every family's

499

kind of nuts in their own way.

500

But how, um.

501

Generous, they were with each other

and how much freedom they had, for

502

each of my, husband and his brothers,

as children to be their full self

503

from their parents and how proud, my

in-laws are of each of their children.

504

and I remember just feeling

this overwhelming sadness,

505

that that is not the.

506

Environment that I got to grow up in

and, feeling like what could I have

507

done if I had had that level of support?

508

Like who could I be without

all of that struggle attached?

509

and so I.

510

Realizing that, I mean, you get the, you

get born into the family, you get born

511

into, and, and children are so smart.

512

Like you, you just cannot

convince me otherwise.

513

we learned survival strategies

so early and they're so smart.

514

We're, I mean, like I learned how

to, read my dad's emotions and.

515

Stop the storms and kind of do this

buffering, and I was so good at it.

516

but the skills that I learned, that

really, truly kept me safe, kept

517

me, um, thriving in a really chaotic

environment in childhood, became things

518

that did not work or were setting

me up, in situations that I had no

519

business replicating in adulthood.

520

And so, yeah.

521

Yeah, I, I think it's first grieving

and, and really it's, it is not fair.

522

It is, it is so crummy that children

get born into these, really chaotic

523

dynamics and then have to learn

how to by themselves, you know,

524

learn how to navigate the chaos.

525

So grieving that, and then I descended

into anger for a good bit, you know?

526

Um, and once the anger kind of

consolidated and the anger was really

527

a reaction to the injustice, and

I think children that grow up in

528

dysfunction very often have a really

sensitive, uh, like finger on the

529

pulse of what's just and unjust.

530

I wasn't allowed to express

anger as a child, right.

531

Because that was just, that

was gonna destabilize the

532

entire safety of the house.

533

And so befriending that anger,

and allowing myself to say

534

things like, this was not fair.

535

My God, that was so fucked up.

536

Like, what are we doing here?

537

was really a part of naming out loud.

538

Mm-hmm.

539

You know, because I think one of the

things, another thing that is very

540

common in dysfunctional families is.

541

There is a set of rules that we

never, the family doesn't name, but

542

the entire family lives by, right?

543

Right.

544

And one of those rules almost across

the board is secrecy, where you

545

just don't name the thing clearly.

546

You don't say, mom has a drinking

problem, dad has an anger problem.

547

uncle is a molester.

548

Or you, you just don't say Right.

549

Truly what is happening.

550

And so.

551

I started to name in a, you know,

and I started out a little more

552

metaphorically, or you kind of

have to like work your way into it.

553

Right.

554

You know.

555

And how old, do you mind if

I ask how old you were when

556

this process started for you?

557

So probably like in my thirties, in

and in therapy and I had to work my

558

way into saying very clearly, my dad.

559

Was emotionally abusive.

560

Like that's the clearest distillation.

561

But that took me a long time

because he's still my father.

562

He's still, there are things he

did that were loving, um, you know.

563

When I was in my twenties, I had a

cat that was very sick and had to

564

be, um, fed through a nose tube five

times a day and I had to go to work.

565

And he came over and he hand fed this

cat two times in the afternoon, like

566

while I was at work for two weeks.

567

I mean, it was incredibly

loving thing that he did for me.

568

Um, and he was very harmful

for a lot of my childhood.

569

And so.

570

Trying to pull all those apart and

name them very clearly and name all the

571

parts, became a way to get clearer on

These are the, these are the things that

572

are good and these are the things that

were harmful and all of them are true.

573

They don't cancel each other out.

574

Um, they all are still things that

were a part of my experience of him.

575

Um.

576

Yeah, so I would say breaking the secrecy

and starting to say very clearly this,

577

this is who this person was, these are

their behaviors, this is what they did.

578

Um, without trying to soften, it

became a way that I trained myself

579

to see my childhood more clearly.

580

Right.

581

Yeah.

582

Because some people don't, it's very

hard to say that, and some people, they

583

do that comparison Well, so and so had

it so much worse, or it wasn't that bad.

584

I think I've probably said on

this podcast 795,000 times.

585

If it changed the way you looked at the

world and it changed the way you looked at

586

yourself or how you are showing up in the

world today, whether it's Big T, little

587

T, middle T trauma, it doesn't matter.

588

None of that gives a shit.

589

It was trauma and it needs to be

resolved and released and let go.

590

Like that's the bottom line.

591

So you know, if you have something.

592

Yeah, you have to, you have to name it,

you have to say this, this was trauma,

593

this was abuse, this was neglect.

594

Whatever it, it is, and that is not easy.

595

That is a very, very

difficult step, you know?

596

I think about the psychology around,

you know, there's this, there's a study

597

and I, I don't have the name of it, but,

um, where they looked at kids' reactions

598

to, um, if someone said something mean

about them, um, as a child versus if,

599

if someone said something negative

about one of their parents, the.

600

Inte intellectual or the, the brain's

reaction to being told something

601

negative about yourself versus being told

something negative about your caregiver

602

was much stronger about your caregiver.

603

Because as children we recognize these

are the people that provide some measure

604

of safety, even while they are providing,

you know, equal measures of harm.

605

They are, this is still the.

606

A person or people that I am

attached to for, my survival,

607

at least until I'm an adult.

608

And so learning to.

609

Tell the truth about my own father

meant I had to like access that part of

610

my brain that was reacting still from

a place of protecting my caregiver.

611

Even in my thirties when I made

my own money, I had my own house.

612

Not dependent on him whatsoever.

613

Still had to undo that, that childhood.

614

Lock or connection that I had to

protecting my relationship with

615

my caregiver for my own safety,

you know, which is so embedded.

616

And that took a lot.

617

It does take a lot.

618

And that's the basis, the basic premise

of what happens when you're a child, and,

619

and you said it very perfectly, is that

you, your brain is never going to let

620

you admit that the people that you are

dependent on for your life are wrong.

621

That is how it all flips

around and oh, it must be me.

622

That is how we start internalizing, oh,

it can't be them because you need them.

623

You do depend on them and, and so

you flip it around to, something is

624

wrong with me 'cause it can't be them.

625

And that's where all that

subconscious rewiring comes in.

626

That's where it needs to come out.

627

That's where you need to do the inner

child work and you need to, you know,

628

you need to really dig deep because yeah,

your brain is not gonna let you do that.

629

Your brain is there to protect you.

630

Right.

631

And it's there to protect you, you know,

as a kid, again, going back to just the

632

eternal optimism of children, right.

633

And, um, if, if you can't, if if it's

something wrong with me, that means

634

that there's still something I can do,

something I can try something, I can

635

learn to get better at, something I can

manage differently to make this better.

636

Um, right.

637

Whereas if you, as a kid.

638

We're able to, oh my God, it's

completely fucked, it's completely

639

hopeless, they're a mess and it's

never gonna get better, that is

640

like a grim place to be as a child.

641

Yes.

642

And so it makes a lot of sense

that as children in dysfunction,

643

we do try to internalize it.

644

Um, but that constant.

645

Attempt at perfecting, and you

know, once we get into adulthood,

646

becomes just completely.

647

Unnecessary because, you know, now we're

in safe, hopefully in safe environments

648

that we can, you know, begin to act

differently, but so unnecessary, you know?

649

Um, but it is very, very

hard to unwire and rewire.

650

Um, and like you talked

about, inner child.

651

You know, and like my husband will

laugh 'cause I'll, I'll be, I just

652

talk to myself, you know, when I'm

at home and I'll like, you know, I'll

653

spill coffee or something and I will

say out loud to myself, that's okay.

654

That's no problem.

655

Like, we can clean it up here.

656

We're just gonna get a paper towel.

657

Like it's no worries.

658

Or like, you know, break something

and be like, that's totally fine.

659

Like, you have adult money,

you can replace this.

660

This is, you know, but I have to say those

things out loud, over and over and over.

661

Um.

662

Just so that my little, little inside

child can be like, that's right.

663

This is what I wanted an adult to

say, and I am an adult now, so this

664

is what I'm gonna say to myself.

665

Uh, yes.

666

Otherwise, if you let that other little

critic jump in before you get in,

667

it's gonna be like, you're so stupid.

668

You spill everything and then

you get down this shame spiral.

669

And the next thing you know, and I

use this example all the time, and I

670

use coffee or milk for some reason,

the next thing you know, you are this

671

horrible person who can't do anything.

672

Right.

673

That's right.

674

That's right.

675

And you gotta, you gotta stop it.

676

Immediate.

677

I do the same thing.

678

I literally do the exact same thing.

679

If I drop something,

I'm like, it's all cool.

680

Like, what's no biggie?

681

I'll literally say it out loud to myself.

682

Mm-hmm.

683

People must think I'm

crazy, but maybe I am.

684

A little crazy is a little good.

685

Right.

686

It's not, it's not the

worst thing in the world.

687

Especially if what you're saying

is, you know, acts of kindness

688

to yourself, and I find, mm-hmm.

689

That I do this now to

other people as well.

690

You know, so if, if I'm out with

girlfriends or my husband or some

691

mishap happens, I'm the first one

to be like, that's no problem.

692

Like, don't worry about it.

693

Like, we'll, we'll fix this.

694

because it has become really

important to me that the people

695

around me know that I am gonna be

a person of safety and a person of

696

soft reaction as much as possible.

697

Right.

698

You know, I am going to.

699

That is my standard for myself.

700

And so I'm modeling that as much

for myself as for other people.

701

But to say, to remind myself, I am

a person who can let things small,

702

let small things be small things.

703

I am a person who can

let people make mistakes.

704

I, and then all of that means that when

I'm alone with myself, I'm a person

705

who can let myself make mistakes.

706

I am a person who can let

myself spill the coffee.

707

Um.

708

And so that has been a really important,

I call it like ling of myself.

709

Like I don't have to be living at

spiky levels of, internal velocity.

710

I'm like, we can just, we can be chill.

711

We can be cool.

712

Like, right, right.

713

Just bring it down.

714

I tell everybody, if your baseline

is at a two, when the bad things

715

happen, you jump to a four or a six

when your baseline is at a seven or

716

eight of hyper vigilance and stress.

717

When something happens, you're

off the charts 10, and then it's

718

too late to do anything about it.

719

Now you're in full blown crisis mode.

720

That's right.

721

It's funny too, how you say that you

spread that around because I go to work

722

all the time, and people will do that.

723

They'll drop something and and they'll

be like, oh my God, I'm so stupid.

724

I'm like.

725

You're not stupid, you're just a goofball

and a silly guy, I remember a CO just

726

a couple weeks ago, someone said, oh,

here comes Tammy, miss positivity, don't

727

like to do anything wrong or whatever.

728

And it was so funny.

729

And then, and then one of the guys jumps

in and goes, it's okay because when

730

she's here, our frequency is always high.

731

Yes.

732

I'm like, okay, Like, I didn't

realize I did it that much.

733

And they're like, oh yeah, because they'll

be like, don't bring my frequency down.

734

Tammy's in the house.

735

That's right.

736

That's right.

737

I love it.

738

It's good though.

739

And I mean that's, there's

something, go ahead.

740

Well, I was gonna say,

there's something when your.

741

Hyper vigilance is lowered.

742

Right?

743

And that has taken me, I mean,

in multiple modalities, right?

744

So I talk to myself, I mean, like

there's yoga, there's Pilates,

745

there's, I'm taking magnesium.

746

You know, I mean like, there's

just so many ways that we're like

747

bringing down that hyper vigilance.

748

But when you have a lower, um.

749

Threshold or a lower baseline, the room

for like, for these larger feelings,

750

particularly Joy has gotten so much

more expansive for me, um, because

751

when I was living at like a eight or

10, I mean like between me and the

752

ceiling, the root, like the feelings

I could feel safely was so small.

753

Um, versus, you know, as I've spent these

years bringing my hypervigilance down, I

754

have so much more expanded capacity for.

755

Um, I mean for all kinds of

things, you know, and empathy and,

756

and relationship and, you know,

true sorrow and other things.

757

But also just the immense amount of

joy that I get to hold now because my

758

emotional canister, I guess is Yeah.

759

Is larger.

760

Yep.

761

Absolutely.

762

I love it.

763

Love it, love it.

764

So tell us about your book.

765

Yes.

766

So let's see.

767

I have a copy of it here.

768

And I will put the links in the show

notes for anybody that wants to get it.

769

Yes, it's called Conjuring the Hurricane.

770

The best way to save your

life is any way you can.

771

Um, beloved Elizabeth Gilbert, um, author

of Eat, pray, love, and Big Magic, um,

772

has, has put a little blurb on the cover.

773

And this book, um, functionally writes

the permission slip for people to

774

leave the lives that are harming them.

775

Um, leave communities that are controlling

them and calling it care Leave.

776

The men who hate you and call it love.

777

This is a, um, it is a memoir that

is written in a braided style.

778

Um, so that you kind of see the end

and the beginning at the same time.

779

Because it was very important for me

that people who are in trauma or looking

780

to unwind generational trauma, um,

emotional abuse, that they see the ending.

781

Um.

782

At the same time that they're

wrestling with this, I did not wanna

783

re-traumatize, um, the reader by

like, let's chronologically trace

784

what happened with my dad and then my

ex, and then, oh, by the way it ends.

785

Okay.

786

Um, I wanted a sense of safety.

787

Um, and they're written in very

small stories, um, so that you

788

can like pick up, put it down.

789

Um, because when I was

really deep in trauma.

790

I did not have the mental capacity

to sit down and read 500 pages.

791

That was gonna be just a no go.

792

Um, so my hope is that anyone who

picks up this book can recognize

793

themself in a life that doesn't fit,

and know that they have permission

794

to take the messy, imperfect exit.

795

Because any exit that gets you out

of a life that's harming you is

796

the best way to save your life.

797

Amen.

798

Love it.

799

Absolutely love it.

800

So do you work, I, I guess we never

even really talked about this before.

801

Do you work with people or do you just,

are you just writing, are you coaching?

802

Or where, what is your story?

803

Whatcha doing?

804

Right?

805

Yeah.

806

So.

807

Yeah, I, um, this book launches,

uh, into the world April 28th.

808

Um, okay.

809

I'm doing speaking, um, with

women's advocacy groups as well

810

as domestic violence shelters.

811

And I'm moving this into, um, a corporate

conversation as well around the hidden

812

cost of delaying really hard decisions.

813

You know, when you are

in a life that is not.

814

Working, you know, for any reason, whether

it's, you know, abuse or high systems

815

of control, or you're in a job that's

awful or you're, you know, um, that

816

decision, that's gonna be a hard one.

817

Yeah, the, but the, so we put

off the moment of rupture, right?

818

Because to change your life

is, is to rupture your life.

819

Um, and that's really uncomfortable

because you know, your sense of

820

identity, your family, your community,

and all of them have thoughts about

821

how you decide to rupture your life.

822

And so we put that off and keep ourselves

in, you know, kind of in the swamp.

823

Um, and so looking at how do we.

824

Choose to go through, um, a period

of rupture that's really deeply

825

uncomfortable, um, and is gonna rearrange

your life in really significant ways.

826

You know, like if you enter AA or if you,

you know, leave an abuser or whatever

827

that, that, that's very uncomfortable.

828

Um, but it's uncomfortable

for a period of time.

829

And then you get to be in a life that

fits, that is safe, that is full of the

830

people that you really want around you.

831

To support you.

832

Um, and so moving, my goal is

to help people feel comfortable

833

and have permission to move

into that rupture space sooner.

834

You know, and I say if one woman picks

this book up and chooses to save her life

835

one day sooner than she otherwise would

have, like, that is what this book is for.

836

Love it.

837

Love it.

838

So people wanna talk to you, work

with you, how do they contact you?

839

Yeah, so, um, my website is

Sarah Hanson writes, um, dot com.

840

There is a contact form, um, if I'm

happy to come and do speaking, um,

841

podcast, I, uh, book signings, um,

events like that, all of that can

842

be, um, routed through there and my

publicist will take it from there.

843

Sounds perfect.

844

Absolutely Perfect.

845

Well, Sarah, thank you

so much for coming on.

846

This has been delightful.

847

Oh, Tammy, thank you so much

and thank you to your listeners.

848

Uh, and I hope that they are all

finding the strength that they need.

849

They most certainly are

one, one step at a time.

850

But before you leave, if you had

to give them one message, one

851

piece of advice, one something from

Sarah Hanson, what would it be?

852

It would be you have permission

to save your life any way you can.

853

Any way is a good way to

change and save your life.

854

Absolutely love it.

855

So again, thank you for coming on

and for all the other listeners

856

out there, we so appreciate you and

take these episodes and listen to

857

them, and learn from these people.

858

They have all done it.

859

They have all struggled

and they have all thrived.

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So your best life.

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Is out there for the taking.

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It's yours.

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You deserve it.

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You earned it.

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you're just worth it.

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So know that and we will

see you back next week.

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Love you guys.