The relationships that have most impact on our lives is the family we are born into. How our parents treat us, the dynamics with our siblings will carry into all our other relationships.

So we discussed relationships and the difficulty of breaking out of familiar patterns as we changed.

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships.

Relationships.

So part as you navigate your path to happy ever after with your old promise.

Good evening, everyone. So tonight we are talking about family relationships. So in the break, a range you were talking about, which is the family relationships that are much stressful or most complicated? Does anyone want to share? Okay. So I think there's vertical relationships which are first of all, you've got your parents and then later, maybe you've got children. And then you've got horizontal relationships, which are like siblings, maybe cousins. And then, of course, if you get into a relationship with someone else, you've then got a whole different family dynamic.

And so when we look at the perennial problems in relationships with romantic relationships, it's money, sex work and families. So when you marry someone, you also marry a set of family and a culture that the family brings with it. And sometimes it can be a culture clash of those relationships. Is there one that's more difficult that you find? So there's, like sibling rivalry. There's parents, sometimes parents controlling. Sometimes parents won't have a set idea of what you should be doing. Sometimes you might feel that parents online, not as involved.

The sibling rivalry there's children which always bring their own stress or a new family that you inherit when you get into a relationship with.

So I think just for me, I think I was sharing with Ellen and see Store. Yes. I think for me mostly most definitely the vertical ones to be more in because I think of the extent of kind of mood my feelings. So they compare you to impact me greater. I think the vertical one so that for me, would be the main ones that have a significant impact. That would be mainly parents. And then and if you say vertical also kind of intimate relationship of that that doesn't influence those things.

They all do. I think they will have the capacity to impact once thoughts and emotions would be sent. How much of how much how would that happen?

I you think?

Yeah. Yeah. I I it's a difficult.

Yes.

Well, for those of you who have been in the group for a long time, like you will know that I have all these bad things to say about my my grandfather in particular. And so the vertical becomes one of those very important. I suppose I wouldn't call it a chapter, but it's an influence in well, it influences you forever. I think it's how you manage it. That's the thing. So even though the experiences may have happened, maybe in your childhood or early years before you are legally seem to be an adult, the influence is there forever.

And I think it's the important thing is coming to grips with it, understanding why you react in a certain way and learn to manage it. Because if we're not careful, once you're in their presence, you refer to being what you were automatically, and you have to be very careful. I think it's a learning experience in managing yourself, how you react and how you allow them to influence you and your behavior going forward. Because even last week, my 19 year old uncle was at me. Hi, child, all the way from Mary and Jesus.

So I had to I put the email down for a bit and I said, oh, God, yeah. Let me read this. This is bad news. No, but it was pleasant, you know. I mean, I got a lot of love and I gave a lot of love. So that was nice. But on a normal circumstances, sometimes when you hear from them, you just think and it going to chastise me about something. Have you done something wrong? What is it now? And it's a lot of times it's stuff that you don't want to hear, be reminded of or, you know, who is quarreling over what piece of legacy that was left by which aunt or uncle or grandparent or parent or something?

Yeah. So for some people, family is not. It doesn't feel you with Knights, fuzzy, warm feeling. It in for this tension.

It's interesting you bring up about grandparents because my granddad wasn't the nicest to his family. And so I can see the impact of that on mom, which then affected the way that she was and probably can change the things that were like the way that she behaved and reacted. And I can see that then in my parents. And there's definitely roles, like who goes back at Christmas or some family gathering and still find themselves in the same family dynamics. It's very difficult to change that. You can change, like, 30 years you've been adult, and yet you go back into that and everyone thinks to be in the same set pattern of dynamics.

Okay. So in the area of this, like I said, there isn't really I don't really have anything set out or any ideas. But the point of us being together is that we have different opinions. We have different insights, different challenges and the things that we get stuck by, the things that we don't see. And so sometimes just talking about an issue means that you're able to it's like we think that everyone thinks how we think and it's the things that we believe that aren't true, that are the things that keep us trapped.

So if we're able to talk, then sometimes we can see the differences and the conflict between people. The friction in different views is how you can find the blind spots in your own what I would call an operating system. So is there anything to do with relationships, family relationships that is relevant that doesn't pay. That is worth talking about.

Me. This is a very important topic because even just trying to talk about it is like, so my mother is a deadlock and the mother figure, as expressed in the group very influential. If you have a father, he would also be. But the mother I think is really influential. And I didn't know until recently she actually influenced all of my relationships all of my life. And I didn't know she was doing such powerful actions. But anyway, so it came to the point it's deadlock. My ex is the one which is at the moment I mean total thermal because he is very, very isn't, I guess.

Or so we have having to communicate because I'm surviving on the money that I'm coming from, the thing that we set up together and is trying to take it away and what I've come to. So I've prayed. I prayed so he put him to disappear from my life altogether. I did so much work on there is just to push it away. And then recently I came to the understanding that actually is of no use because doing that is not giving me the opportunity to really learn from it.

And also it's going to come back. It does keep actually coming back. The more I push him, he comes back because I'm not a good communicator. I'm also not very well. I was not very good within myself about myself. So he has given me the opportunity to really find myself and I really need to authentically communicate with him. And it was happening quite well. The last few months. It's come back now is like completely trying to take everything for me. So I'm strict naked and still.

Now I realize the value that he has to me. It's each either stand in my own Patty and say it doesn't matter. I still and I still stand. And I'm not going to let that completely destroy my inner. And so I'm hanging on those red and I'm saying it in the group so that I can have the strength to carry it forward. And I do have a backup. I know someone who really cares about me. So I mean in their arms basically. So that's giving me confidence because I realize with my daughter, for instance, they have always well, not always.

But as they grow up, they have on things at me to completely smash me up. I've led them to be so good in themselves that they had the power and also the impulse to do this. Now when this comes with them and I have such issues now before I would say no more mother. And then I quickly switch over. But with the daughters, I know the value of setting each other is now. I've learned it, that it's so important in our evolvement, and that's why those people are so close to us because they are giving us the opportunity to really get inside ourselves.

When my daughter is getting really upset with me, I love it. She's able to express all her anger on to me. And I love it because I know she's going from this. So that's all I'm sharing.

Thank you.

Parents have such an impact on our romantic relationships. There's the idea of attachment theory. Attachment theory. If you're not familiar with the idea that we learn our first relationship is with our caregivers, usually our mom and our dad or whoever is looking out for us. Introduction to the world. And from that relationship, we learn the whether like if we cry and if we need something because we're helpless, can we trust them to give us what we need? And if we have a very receptive for caring mother or caregiver, we learn to trust the world.

We learn to trust that what we need is going to get to us. Other people generally care and want to give us more. If we have a mom that maybe stressed, maybe busy, maybe depressed or a caregiver that doesn't do any of those things that we cry and they don't pay any attention that they're not going to give us what we need. They basically don't care. We learn that we can't trust people. So the idea of attachment theory is that whatever style that we have of parent effects our trust level in going into a new relationship.

And so those of us that were lucky that had a good parent, we can get into a relationship and can trust people people that were inconsistent learn to be a little bit more nervous and they're a bit more needing relationships. They need more reassurance. And some people learn to be afraid of intimacy. And so they'll avoid any kind of commitment or they'll become frightened at the point where someone matters to them. So there's that idea of attachment theory. There's also, when you look at Havel Hendrix is work that they suggest that we choose people like our parents who recreate the similar dynamics that we were looking for from our parents.

And.

In order to transcend that challenge. So one question I can't remember where I heard it from. But one question that's really insightful and talking to people is of your parents, who did you most want love, approval and respect from? So if you think about that, if you want to share, we can share. If not, you can keep it. But who was more important to you? And it may not have been the one that you spend the most time with. It may be sometimes we seek the approval of the other one that has been more distant, and then something else is in those relationships.

So in that dynamic, what did you feel you had to be to be loved by them? How did that change so apparent that approves of you doing well in school? Did you try and say, look, OK, I've done this, or was it apparent that you got approval from being pretty and well kept? Or was it apparently you got approval from achieving in sports and things like that? So just to kind of illustrate this one of the things when I looked up personality styles as in Myers Briggs.

And it was because with my daughter, I was noticing that there was kind of a disconnect. And when I looked at, I think it's please understand me. It's about Mines Brigs, and there's basically four types. There's 16 personality types, but they sit four categories and the idealist artisans, Guardians and rationals. And so my daughter is a Guardian, and I'm irrational. And the rationals are go and find yourself and be whatever you are and just be true to yourself. And the Guardians are follow the rules. Be a good girl, good boy, do everything you're told and look for approval.

So my daughter is like, look how well I'm done on school. Look, I've done this and I've done this looking for approval. And I was like, don't worry about school. What's really important to you just do to you. So there's this mismatch. And so sometimes the difference in our personality can be in how we unconsciously reward our children. And it can be what our children feel that they need to do to get our approval. And so when we look now as adults, we can look at those dynamics and just understand this different stars.

But as a child, it feels like your worthiness is dependent on the way that you act. Does that make sense? So it feels like you're getting approved of whatever the parent values. So it's probably worth if we go into breakout rooms for probably five to ten minutes to think about the impact our parents and our parents style. And sometimes people are dramatically impacted by sometimes parents neglectful. Sometimes not everyone gets born into great parents or parents who are having the best of times. And then sometimes it can be just a misunderstanding or something that we observe that isn't really true.

That can dramatically affect us. So if we think back to our parent relationships and how they might have impacted the course of our life and how we see ourselves, okay. So does that make sense to everyone? Is anyone struck by anything that they'd like to share? Okay, so the vertical is going to be grandparents, parents and then children. And it's interesting. One of the things I think you get with children is however much you try to put in. I think there's a healthy stage where children will rebel and reject you.

And something interesting that apparently in all species where they live in packs, join adolescents and young adulthood. Humans and other species will create some kind of conflict. And what they're really doing is testing. Should they stay with a pack or should they go off and leave the pack? Adolescence is known to be a difficult period in terms of parenting. Are there any issues that you or we have any points to say on it that's worth discussing anyone interested in discussing child relationships?

Well, one of the things that I remember of my son is all of 30. So it's been a while since he's been a child is having to consciously say, no, don't because it's like you're going to repeat what you yourself hated when you were growing up, you know, and it's like, okay, no, no breaks. You have to put the brakes on there. No, you're not going down there because you hated it. You cannot do it. You cannot say the same thing. You cannot thing. And of course, what I found interesting was when we left Jamaica.

My son was not yet six years, five. Right. So he had had enough memories of Jamaica and how he was being brought up and the cousins and all the rest of it in school and then come in here and go into a different type of school and meeting different people. And I remember one day he said to me, Mommy, this is not Jamaica. You know, we don't do that here. And I said, what do you mean? You must have respect for your elders. You can't be calling anybody by their first name.

You're a child as you eat it like a kind of finger, like, oh, dear God. Taking this back home to Jamaica, they are going to think that I have brought about an inbred child, but I had to, you know, just really, just bite myself and just suck it up. Literally.

I remember being told that by my mom, if you go around someone's house, call them Mr. And Mrs. Or what did mom say the Charles names mom, dad or something. So like George's Mum, which is dad? Yes. I was told that never the old one. Play the first time.

Okay.

So there's one point on that I want to bring up, because some of that is about how you'll be in charge with as appearance, isn't it? And so then it's the whole mess of the other relationships are brought into your relationship. And I think that is probably like with children. It's not necessarily the behavior about how we perceive others are judging us as a parent on their behavior. So I think that kind of distorts, like the direct relationship you have with your child, because you can have a relationship with a child.

Has anyone seen what's the Adam fan in the film, Big Daddy? No, it's a really funny film. So it's this Adam Sandler. Is this, like, drop out who's just not taking life seriously, and somehow he gets dropped a kid to look after, and he's letting him do what he wants. And he goes, I want to wear this, like, fancy dress. They go, yeah, you wear that fancy dress, and the school are telling him you can't bring him up like this. You got to do this. The story is like he finds his redemption through the child and they have this great relationship.

But it's the school and it's everyone else putting pressure on him to change turning the child. They can't do that. Okay. So before we move on. Is there anything anyone would like to discuss? Parentchild relationship parenting?

Yeah. I've got a little bit of a different point of view, I guess in that I help raise my sister. So I basically parented her. And I don't know, I kind of find it annoying away in a way when she's gone through her rebelliousness that is aimed at me and not my mother. But it's funny in that if she comes to me with a situation like an issue, how do I move forward? I feel like it's generally pretty clear, like she already knows the answer. And when I tell her, this is what I think she tends to, even though she knows.

Yes. This is what I need to do. This is how I need to be forward. She says, I know, I know that's what I need to do, but because you've said it, I have to rebel.

And.

But I just think you're 27 now, so I kind of I don't know. I I find it a bit of an odd thing that she would want to rebel simply because almost so I guess that's part of her character. And it's really quite difficult to change those dynamics as well. Back to always be the sister. But I've been a parent to to change that. Back to being sisters. I know that we've both been trying to do for the past five years or so, and I know that she's wanted that as well as I can, but I really wanted that change.

And course she also doesn't as well. Yeah. It's kind of almost like you've been called two ways kind of thing. So it's a bit of an emotional roller coaster. You feel like as head against the wall quite a bit.

But then, well, that's really that you are, because your sisters first. And so you're the sister relationship, and then it's changed. And so there's, like, power dynamics in sibling relationships. And then it's changed. So I suppose the question is, how much did she accept you as a parent? And how much was still the older sister telling me, like, doing the parenting role?

You're interested?

Interesting.

I don't know. I think the roles were mixed since she was born, I guess.

Yeah.

Any tricks? Any tricks out there, though? You can help me in this time. We're.

Yeah. I think it's very difficult. I think your sister has the awareness that you're in that pattern. So I think maybe you have to go deeper into that. Like what? Because those dynamics are supported. There is a framework that's supporting those dynamics. So it's challenging the framework, which is a all the assumptions and expectations in that relationship. So we're going to talk about siblings in a minute. So maybe some of that will be relevant.

I mean, I wasn't going to say anything, but then Nicholas books, I've got some prefer. No. Basically, I would say, don't be a parent because the richness of the children picking up on their own. It's also, I mean, saying that I had no direction from my mother and I really totally suffered. But the richness of the experiences I've had through the suffering. And I don't say that children should suffer. No, I don't say that.

But.

I wasn't really a good parent in the sense that I let them be. And I let them learn and I let them learn together. They have the same age kind of schools. And when I look at them today and I'm thinking, wow, amazing children, amazing people on their own. They have so much confidence. I mean, they are saying to me, mom, or contribute mother to us, why aren't your mother to us? Why are you our charged? I'm like a child towards them. I can say that not being a good mother, being a chance of them when I look at them, I mean, oh, so I do think that not to be too much of a good payment is very good.

That's it.

Yeah. I was much more find yourself. And I never really had strict routines or structures, but more. I always think if people are happy and healthy, that's the way that they grow best.

Sevilla hey, I feel to good. I just wanted to a built upon when the call said, my experience has been similar. Like when I moved out for you and I did my own thing. They have to younger sisters who also moved out and did their own thing. But we come from a culture where us not acceptable. So when they did that, their reasoning was always Arab did this. Why can't we? And I remember a couple of years ago when we were together and they tried to give me credit for that, that you broke down this barrier and it made it easier for us to walk through.

And my body rejected the praise because for me, I felt like I struggled through this. I argued through this and I feel like it was easier for them because that gate was already open and they just had to walk through it. Blame on me.

So your eldest child.

I have an older brother. Second elders.

Yes.

And your other siblings were girls?

Yep. My two sisters younger than me.

So it feels like you had to do the work and you had to go through the hard stuff and then it was so much easier for them.

Yeah. I wouldn't have minded it. I don't want to sit here and put blame on anybody, but it would have been easier if everybody did it on their own terms. I didn't like how it was sad did this. So all the guilt and blame would be thrown at me while they did their thing rather than their own, their own sense of individuality and thinking and saying, I'm doing this for myself. I'm not following anybody. This is just what I need to do right now. So that's why I reject that praise because it just felt like I opened the gate and they just walk through it.

Okay. But you recognize that you were the trailblazer.

I have been going to therapy for two years, and my therapist says the same thing, like, all this trauma is inherited, and it's generational, like Stem is back. There's a certain way to be. And if you're not that way, breaking that you obviously somebody you're breaking something. A breaking generational trauma.

Because also there was a fight. There was a fight for you to be individual. And that fight was against your parents. But in the same way when we talked about with Sandra about the perception of others on your parents, is there some of that your parents. Is it like they really believe that this is the way for you or that there was a lot of pressure on them and it would reflect on them if you weren't conforming.

I feel like the latter. I think they were brought up a certain way, and they thought that's the right way. It was about pride. And it's about what people were thinking, what society will think, of what the community will think. And because the culture is so dominating, they needed to follow that part. That's why they were supposed to be in their own mindset. I feel if they separated themselves from that, they would agree with me, but they would never have missed that out loud.

Yeah. Yeah. So. So there's also a cultural element that families operate within the culture, which is often the struggle when you meet someone different. It's like you don't realize that other families have completely different, all the things that you took for granted or maybe Idiosyncratic to your family or within your culture, and it's still ongoing for you.

I.

Don'T have these debates with my mom anymore because they're never healthy. We can never see eye to eye. I would say our relationship is layered, like it will take the layers away. They'd be a lot of hurt and sadness and regret, but we just numb it all down. And just at the face, we just say, hey, you okay? It's just a relationship.

So it's really about identity. It's like our identity within culture, of identity, of who I am.

Yeah. And also, I feel like my mom never sees me as my own person. Even now, I've been a life for 27 years, and I think she still finds it hard to see me as my own person. I think she sees me as an extension of herself and how she needs to be and how people need to see here.

Are you happy with your achievement?

Happy? I beautifying happiness.

Satisfied. Are you competing yourself that you've done the best that you can do for yourself?

For me, I feel like and this is just for me. This is my personal story. I don't think there's any such thing as healing. I think we just we just get good at distracting ourselves because I think over the years that's why I've been able to do like people have come into my life like my best friend, for example, and they just bring a side of me that's happy. And as long as I am on that POS, I think I'm good.

But do you think that you have achieved the pain that you obviously have endured? Has it been worth it in your mine, in your estimation, what you have achieved?

Well, I wish it never happened. Like I wish my story was different, and it was easy. But I'm glad I am. Well, I'm glad I'm finding my purpose on this planet, and I'm trying to figure out who I am because I could never follow my mom. Like if I went back now and I did what she wanted me to do, which would be probably to settle down and be a housewife and stay at home and not have any rights. I could do that. But the sacrifice isn't worth at all.

I'd rather go I'd rather just disengage from her and try to stick it out and go back.

Well, my mother wanted me to be a nice desk person with a lovely husband, and I suppose the house and the two kids and the dog and the mortgage, whatever to fit the stereotype. But no, that wasn't me. I did the exact opposite. No, no, no, no, no. I think. Yeah. Rob correct me if I'm wrong. Is it that we place too much emphasis on the perception of having to have not just approval, but also what appears to be love and all of those good emotions that we think that we should have with our parents or get from our parents that we cannot be if we don't have those things from them, the approval they and in other words, that approval is tied into what we think is their love.

Yeah. I definitely think that's part of it. I think there is a cultural story that we're supposed to be loved by a parents. But parents are people like us. You don't have to qualify to be a parent. And so there's a wide range of parents. Sometimes parents, if you look at adults and you look at the statistics and you can look at the levels of depression, levels of anxiety and levels of mental health and suicide and all of those rates, we're clearly not a well species. And yet everyone goes on Facebook and as if they're happy they've ever been because no one wants to there's a shame in feeling you're doing less than and I think is probably relevant in all cultures.

So my family, both my parents are Irish. So there is an Irish thing of this sort of like a standard that you have to live up to. And we were Catholic. And I remember our mom saying, you have to be better. I love of people because you're Catholic and all of this stuff so that all comes to parents are imperfect. And I look back and I would parent differently. And I'm sure most parents would look back and go, I did this wrong. I could have done that better.

It's just the fact that we get sometimes too young. So we start off and parents have an idea and the pressure to be in a parent, there's a great pressure in trying to get it right. And we don't always know where we're going. And if we look at so I often talk about medieval mentality in terms of relationships. So parents think they know where you're going. And so I see it with my daughters. My daughters like, yeah, dad, it's a different generation, like your generation called it all wrong, and we're sorting out your problems and you can see, like, an arrogance, like they haven't lived long enough to have seen it go wrong.

So, yeah. But the cultural story is that your parents should love you and then you meet someone special and they changes all your world and they will love you. And when that doesn't happen, we tend to think it's us. Okay, what's wrong? Why aren't they loving me? What do I need to change? And we don't always see behind that. So we don't see that's kind of imperfect at the risk of sounding really patronizing. I think life is difficult. Finding yourself is difficult. And I speaking to someone who's close to double your age.

I think it's still quite early to be taken score. So what I mean is that if you look at the life, it's going to be. I think there's a dip when I looked, I was quite glad when I was in my 40s because I remember going to my daughter was in the team and she was having a birthday party. And it was also a place where ever young parents. So they were all off during this laser stuff. And I was sitting there and I was watching and I thought the 30s was a horrible time because you're tired, you're stressed, you've got kids everywhere and you've got no space.

And so I was looking at watching these parents and, like, 30, you should be full of life and everything going for you. And these parents were just like, shut up and the kids were there and they obviously weren't sleeping and they were bickering at each other. I remember there's a glorification of youth in our culture, but I remember the 30s has been the hardest decade. My daughters were young, hard, you're working, you've got children who are active in crying and all the different problems they have.

Whereas 40s was much easier because the children are older. So I think it's really hard in 20s and 30s because it's really a stage of when people are finding themselves in a career, they're finding themselves in parenting, finding themselves in relationships. And statistically, like, culturally, there's a glorification of 20s and 30s 40 is definitely better. And yet if we look at the statistics, people are happier. Older people are happier than younger people. And I think that's because you come to resolve a lot of those things because I think you grow up the first 20 years are with your family of origin, the next 20 years of kind of finding yourself in that journey of, like, what do I want to do as a career?

Who do I want to be around? Who do I want as in relationships? Am I going to have children or not? And then I think developing your own family, then you start to put your own stamp of what you want to recreate from from the problems that you've had in your own personal relationships. And then it's like 40s and 50s where you start to see the mistakes that you've had. But for the people who are kind of my age and up once you've rooted, maybe 50, like 45, 50, do you see you see cycles of the same things have happened and you start to see in enough seasons that you can link back and have a little bit more distance from those relationships.

So I don't know if that makes any sense or if it's patronizing from someone. It's Mak an excuse for their business and less.

I think it feels like things don't a role, even though those relationships are still very much partisan fabric, but it's not as real as it would have been. Yeah, I really agree with what you're saying that it is a myth that you have parents in particular, because mine has been very complicated. It's not been straightforward, like a mother or a father with my grandmother. And then I discovered who my mother was asked to use when I saw my father very late. So it's very difficult. So from that I think what I take is actually the fact that party is a myth that you former think our culture does make us almost.

We assume that that's what we should be given as you're born. But actually, that's not the case. That's just if you either have it sometimes when you don't know. Yes, I totally agree with what you're saying about is a kind of myth, but obviously you have to navigate it. It still has a massive impact on, though, even if it still shapes when you are for who you are and your kind of engagement with your environment to in your relationships or that cover whichever however you file.

But that is a very tough throat, I think.

Yeah, I can remember leaving home in my 20s and I left home when I left when I was 18, and then it's 20, and you start to see all the things in your family dynamics that you disagree with. And early on is if you argue it's very volatile because you rejecting them. And I remember talking to my mom like mom was Catholic, and this you should come to Church. And I remember going to Church on the like, midnight Mass for Christmas. And there's all this preaching of love and compassion.

And so it is London. So it's a busy Church. And I remember pushing me out to bar in to be in the queue for a community. And I was like, what is the hypocrisy in that you'll never get out? Otherwise, hold on. It's like peace, four men. So it's like, like in the Church is peace be with you and you do the handshake. And then about a couple of minutes later, are you going up for Communion and just like peace be with you, peace with you and go and get help.

And don't you see the contradiction in that? And I remember because I questioned everything about religion and we had a discussion about it. And I just remember saying, I'm not talking to you anymore because you'll change my mind. And it was because her identity was Christian, and it was a nice way of believing, because if I do this, I go to heaven. And that whereas question it made it uncomfortable. Sometimes I remember being I would say a lot more anti religion at the time. And it was because I saw that people used it is like a nice, comfortable package that you don't have to challenge.

You don't have to go through that angst of finding yourself. And it's just very comfortable because it gives you the answers. And you don't have to deal with the discomfort. And I think maybe some of this comfort your feeling, which is why I'm talking about being early in the process, because if you look at the hero's journey from Joseph Campbell, which is that every great story is really an arc, and it's leaving the existing world. And I would frame that kind of conflict in this, which is why I'm saying it's early days because it's leaving the existing world.

So just leaving the world that you're known in and then it's going through all those ordeals, which is really about the Star Wars is the typical hero's journey. Star wars was actually written directly using Joseph Campbell's framework, The Matrix, The Law of the Rings. All of these follow that same arc, and it's basically you leave the world and you're unsure whether you can make it and you meet these challenges and you find enemies and you find allies. And then the real test is where you really doubt that you've got it in you to be able to come through and you face the test, like bringing down the Death Star or get in the Ring or whatever it is.

And the Lord of the Rings, I can get into that or the Matrix, where Leo has that fight where he's left in the Matrix and this him against everyone. And suddenly he finds he can just do this. And that's the moment where he knows he's the one. And so I think then you can come out of that. And that's when you've grown as a person. And so I think the challenge and the hardship it's horrible to go through, and none of us want to go for it.

But I think it's what eventually makes us here we are later.

But it's the from the unknown that keeps us many times hiding behind these various mantras and these various rituals and the framework within which you live. Because religion does that for you, it provides space within which many questions are seemingly resolved. For you. You don't have to go seek your own solution, is there? So you can get on with other things. But coupled with that is the notion that outside of that framing, there is this bad world with these unknown. It's like, you know, the land of the Dragons and goblins and all kinds of things.

And you you're going to be a it's the same world. It's just that that frame has been removed from you, either voluntarily or whatever. But it then goes back to that whole thinking that these rules by which we live came about because of religion, many of the rules that we thou shalt not kill that's been there before we had organized religion. It's just framed in a different way. And so I think if we can get our head around our heads around that that there is that fair.

It's like going from light to darkness. In a sense, the light is there. It's just that you're now going to have to consciously think of your own set of rules. And that's the hard part I think that we're afraid of by which new set of rules do we now live?

Yeah. I think what politics and religion does is it gives us those. And it's much easier because politics is like borrows post up a mandate. And yeah, I've got it. So and people vote as a way of not having to take responsibility for themselves.

I think it parents are so important, the being new to the world. You're a little child and you really navigate through life through them, really. And they touch you until death, probably until unless you suddenly wake up about yourself and then you release them and you go into yourself, which is a very good point. So I think love, love is a fundamental, I think with solve, anybody can flourish. It doesn't matter if you don't know how to teach or to to be a model. If they know that you are non judgmental and love, I think anybody can flourish.

But now I'm understanding that it's a bit pessimistic. But after hearing everything I feel to say that we come in this world and a lot of them have got beautiful parents and beautiful children. But for my experiences, I came into this world lonely during my childhood, lonely doing the life and are the children have left. So I'm alone. I was alone to start with. I'm alone too. And I've just got to deal with that, that we're just alone. At the end of the day, we may have good relationships, but we're just alone are working to live alone.

So I'm coming to and all the learnings I've had, I'm coming to realize that. I mean, my children are coming to see me in three days. I'm going to be so ecstatic. They don't be so happy. And then straight after that, they're living. I'll be a bit side. And then I'll come back to my aloneness at the moment.

I'm okay with it.

Thank God. But, you know, I've been times where no, I've not been okay with it. So it's really amazing to come to that point of being okay with yourself.

I would change the world from a loneness to being a friend to myself. My friend. I'm my own friend rather than saying that I'm alone because being hinting that you're alone to me seems as though there is something missing, that there's something lacking that you're not fulfilled and you're looking for something. And Veronica, I don't think you are. I think you are wonderful. I think you're bubbly and lovely. I think you're.

So.

I think you're complete. I understand what you're saying because I miss my son. You know, he's not around, but. But as a person, as an entity, I like myself. So I'm by myself. I'm still whole. I'm not any less. It's just that with people, they complement and bring out other things in you. And I think that's what you are. I think your children will come and they go. But I think you still are the same whole person that you are when they're around.

I have a question. So when I'm in my 20s and I've been wondering, what are the reasons that people decide to have children? For example, we've been talking about all the trauma people go through, all their uncertainty, the mental illness. Why do women still decide to have children, even when they know they're not ready or that motherhood is not for them. Go through that journey when you just know it's not going to work.

I will say that personally, I've never wanted children. And I think it's quite interesting, the kind of pressure that they can put on you actually, for that, I don't know if it's just for women or or men as well. Its arm down a little bit. Now, I think as I've gotten to a certain age, people stop asking is bloody lovely. But women, especially actually, when they're better, you know, you want children. And I said, no, I've not since twelve that I just don't want them. You know, of course, as a child, it was brilliant.

I loved it. I never wanted any myself. And the disdain that you get from some people actually remember your original question. I don't want to ramble, but I think the question is.

Why do people decide to have children when they know it's the wrong decision for them? Like, is it because of societal pressure? Is that because of loneliness or, I don't know, trying to compare themselves, trying to keep up with the Jones? I don't know what the answer is, but I see a lot of women having children, and I just feel like you are not fit to be a mother like you don't have that gene in you.

Personally, I would say because I never really looked to her children, and for a long time I never did. And suddenly I kept having them and having them and I never wanted them. So it feels to me that it's the individual that brings out the children because they're supposed to have them. I won't going to all the other stuff, the contracts and all that stuff. But we already know when we come here and a lot of people want to have children and they can't have because they are not supposed to have them.

So it's very much an intuitive thing. Whatever it's supposed to be saying, that's how it is when you have them to have them, when you don't. So even though in the world we talk or we behave as though this is like this. But if it's not supposed to be, it won't happen. So all the things that are happening is because you are supposed to happen. That's really what I believe because of my own experience.

I like that answer.

Thank you.

Not a woman and maybe not qualified times. But I think life happens before we're ready for it generally. And I think what I see is a lot of people people make kind of stumble from one situation to another, and maybe they think it's going to keep a relationship. Maybe they feel something lacking and they think a child will be the answer. Sometimes it's automatic pilot, biological clock. The problem with life is that you don't know what's going to happen until you're in it. And so we make the decision without knowing what's involved.

Sorry, I'm sorry in advance, but I feel like there's a selfish motive. Like, personally, if I would have children in the future, I think that a selfish motive behind it. But I also feel as though in this world, there's empowerment. The definition of empowerment in our society is a person who has a mortgage, a family life, a big car, big job. So I think maybe you want to fit in with that. So that's why you follow that track. You do where everybody else is doing, because that's what you're supposed to do.

And if you don't your question, maybe that's why. But I raised my hand because I wanted to agree with what Sandra was saying. I don't like this idea that someone's gonna come and save you, like as a child, you find Besides that because you try and help yourself in those difficult situations, but in reality, only you are going to save yourself and no one's gonna love you and care for you the way you're going to love and care yourself, because I always tell my younger brother I always tell him the one person in this world is going to care through the most is you, and I wouldn't want him to believe it's.

Someone external, like another person can be an extension. But you know how we have that phrase that your significant other. I don't like that because I'm a whole person in myself. What should be a whole person in myself? I shouldn't be half of another human being. So families should be an extension of us, like your partners and your children rather than who you are.

Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think what's really difficult is we live in a world where we're constantly marketed to buy people by products that are going to be our savior. And so many people give people don't take care of themselves. And then they wonder why they've got diabetes or heart disease or something like that, or why they're overweight and they want a product or someone else to do it. And I think from school onwards, culturally, we're told school will take care of you if you follow our rules, school, religion, politicians, companies will take care of it.

Man, I just wanted to respond to say no, I think it's a combination of things. I know for me what personal health has meant it when I've been in the most difficult times in my early 20s and 30 of that, I would have never wanted children. I had, like, almost a phobia of wanting children just because I did not think I just did not want children because I think I'm just so very angry. But in for my definition of health is meant that as and I've got older and results of my own ideas about that.

I have actually do that. You get to a stage where I felt. Yeah, I'm actually now ready for children. I was quite amazed to see that transition for myself, but I think you're right. If you don't have an opportunity to come away from your environment, then we are continually just finding ourselves in situations where you don't actually see ink about the action you're taking. So I think the question only was, why do women have children? I think it's not just women, but it's not directly that person's choice, but the circumstances that they end up finding themselves.

And that's a combination of maybe not lacking in sex education, maybe also family environments, maybe peer groups. So there's a lot of combination thing, but of course, there's an element of your own health as well, if you feel empowered enough to go on that journey.

No, actually, I just like to add that it's a very difficult landscape, but females sign themselves in that it starts from the family members and the expectations. You know, it's a joke, and then it becomes a serious discussion after a while, you know, when you're a teenager. Oh, you're going to get married and have children someday soon and you will know what it's like and that sort of thing. And then as you get older, it becomes a little bit more serious. But then at school, also, the conversations tend to be about, oh, when you become parents, sometimes, you know, that kind of thing.

And that expectation is fair. And then you go into the work world and you, oh, why should we hire you? Because in another two or three years, you're going to be going off and getting married and having children. And if we have a man in the job, well, he'll be here. So we're going to train you. And then you go off to have babies. And I got that in my first job, and I was incensed and it took a lot out of me and just to keep quiet because I found it quite insulting.

He was an American gentleman who thought that he had the right to tell me that I was going to get pregnant and have babies rather than look after my career. Yeah. And so there's that. And then, of course, if you're a member of a Church of then there is that expectation that marriage is a part of being a part of a congregation and so forth. So there are so many layers that we have to navigate. And it's almost as well ingrained in you that it is the daunting it is expected because everybody is saying that I remember my Ghana College is looking at me after year three of my marriage and saying to me, you know, when you go for your annual checkup.

So do you think that you are having any difficulty getting pregnant? And I said, But I don't want to get pregnant. No, I said, no, not yet. It feels like him. He was thinking maybe we should book you in for an examination and said, no, I don't mean to don't want to get pregnant. So if it comes at you and then, of course, what do you say? And it's like, okay, once you've had the first one, because then the embarrassing questions also come, is it you or is it the husband who's having the difficulty do you need to have maybe we should have this recommendation.

And that okay, because that could help you. Or you should go and see. So. And so if you have any difficulties with pro, but so and then, of course, the your parents. Oh, when are you going to be grandparents? So there's no easy answer to for me. It was my stubborn nature. No. Hell, no. I'm doing it when I want to. And it was like, oh, well, I should do it now and get it over with. And I'm going to have one. So that was it for me.

Maybe I don't have the turtle gene coming out of my wherever. But now I have I think some people are right. I haven't thought about it, and it's just accepted that it's going to happen. And when it happens, you go along with the flow. Whereas there are some people who consciously I just don't want to have children. And maybe it's the best decision that I think we need to respect that because being a parent is hard and difficult and time consuming. And if you can't give it your all, then I think we should just respect when somebody says no parenting is not for me.

I think it's one of those things that you can never understand how hard it is until you do it. So yeah, I don't think you can know it's like most things that you see the result of it. It's like every everyone wants to have written a book, but no one wants to write the book. And I got a dog a while ago, and I didn't realize how hard that was going to be and how much work is going to be involved in that. Parents dig in. They talk about everyone wants to dog and they think of, oh, yeah, we'll get out for walks, but it's not actually walk.

And also, I think there's the evolutionary drive to have children, so we don't really know why. I always knew that I wanted to have children. I would have felt like I'd miss something not having them. But I don't know that I was necessarily ready when I had and I wouldn't want children now at my age. But I know that I would be much more distanced and better able to parent than 20 years ago. I think the last relationship is really siblings and siblings is really interesting because I think Alfred Adler, who was a student of Freud and work Freud former sex, was at the root of everything.

Adler disagreed. And for it was all about power. So he looked one of the things that he believed was that your order of death had an impact on your personality. So the first child is generally loved is the one that gets all the photographs, gets all the attention, and is the novelty is the parents first child, everyone. So everyone's paying attention. By the time the second one comes along, they have much less pictures, much less attention, because you've already got this one going. You've got a balance the two.

There's the gone Ansor jealousy and all of that. And then there's, like the youngest child. So I was one of three, and I did notice that there was a bit of dynamic of my daughter. My sister was the only child for four years, and she had lots of attention. And then I came along. And then four years later, my brother came along is something about four years in our family, and he demanded attention like none of us, it wasn't. I think there's a middle child syndrome where tend to get less attention and be less a seeking of attention.

But I know my brother was he would demand the tension, and there's no way he wasn't going to get it. And so I think there was a bit of a dynamic between my sister and him of attention, whereas I was more like playing football, and not really they're in that dynamic that first children are supposed to be more conservative, because if this status quo is that you get the most attention that you have the rank, then you tend not to want to change the power dynamics.

Younger children tend to be more rebellious and more disruptive, because if you're the baby of the family, then you want to change the power dynamic so that you get more. And so they tend to be more disruptive and rebellious than first born children.

So.

Has anyone got anything to mention in terms of siblings and any of that dynamic that you notice that happen in those relationships?

I do because I would genuinely completely agree with your statements that what I find or what I found anyway, is that mothers like so somehow it looks like I looked around and somehow mothers always like some depending on the sex, even though I was the elders, my mother adored my bother because on top of this, because she threw the father out. And so it looks like the eGPUs thing is alive, which means that fathers like the daughters. And so if I didn't have a father, but my mother loved my brother, and it looks like this then the rejection of the daughter.

I don't say that is everywhere the same, but I fully fully experienced that. And I see a lot of mothers around that they do tend to like the daughter son. And I see, even in my own relationship, how the males really like my daughters. It's a sexy thing. I don't mean sex, sex, but I mean, it's a sexist thing in the human race. That's what I really feel.

Before I had children, I wanted sons. I got daughters, and I'm quite happy that I got daughters. And one of the reasons is that I was there a noticed fathers and sons. It was a difficult dynamic in that some were really competitive and they would compete with their sons. And some were disappointed in their sons. And they would be, would you say, like mocking or disparaging to their sons. So I think it's probably quite difficult to be a dad to a son with those evil.

There's this short story I once read that I want to share, and it's a little baby child, boy child in his crib and the mother leaning over and there've been a warm moment and the child witnesses the dad approach. So this big hairy Bay approaches, and he takes his mother the way and that's obviously the husband taking his wife away. And the irony is this little child then doesn't like that that hairy figure that has just come and taken his mum away from him. But the iron in this is that that child grows up and he's at then that he wants that it's doing the same thing, just like that.

And teenage sons, it feels like that becomes a competition.

I'm.

Not sure I like the is complex. I'm not sure how valid that is, but definitely for there's something or I've noticed competition and a power struggle. Yeah.

And I'm using air courts right now to be the man of the house.

There's competition also between females. I mean, mothers and daughters too. It just may take a different manifestation, but it's there. And it can also be very evident if it's a competition for father's attention, because if Daddy dotes on daughter and Mommy, she is left out, there can be difficulties as well. It can be.

I.

Think it all boils down to the personalities, the needs of the individuals involved, and the roles that they're expected to play and how they all fit together, because some children can be very independent and really don't become part of part of that any tension and to the world for loyalty and for who loves who the most and those kinds of things. And also, I think the number of children who are involved to play a part as well. And then, of course, it has to do with the parents as well, because some parents are really not good at hiding who their favorite child or children are.

And that sets up quite a bit of rivalry, intention and hurt. And that again, also has its own dynamic among the siblings. There's that dynamic between the parents and the children. But then there is that one among however many children there are, and it's for some people, it affects you forever all your life.

Bill, I was wondering, does this type of or exist in mother in law and daughter or dynamic because say, your mother, say your mother loves her child the wrong way and their child is their emotional partner because there has been unable to provide emotionally for them. Wouldn't they caption this son's wife as the other woman? And there'd be a struggle of power and insecurity there as well? I feel I don't know, because I was married for two years of my life, and I'm going through a divorce right now, and that was one of my battles like there was a lot of insecurity worry and you're taking our son away from us.

I feel like I'm a bit more tuned in to see male dynamics. And so I feel like maybe I been a man. I don't feel like I'm really tuned in to understand female dynamics as much.

Well, I was lucky I married son number five out of five boys. Sorry, I was weighed out on the bottom of it for them both. And so number one was absolutely perfect. You know, those first children who are just absolutely perfect and they fulfill all of the desires of the parents. So there is no need for any other child to do anything because Sunrun absolutely. And so everybody was below that so you could live your life. You could do pretty much watching what you needed to do without parents in law poking noses in your affairs.

I don't know. But I think, though, that we still no matter what the circumstances are, no matter what the dynamic are in your immediate family, your extended family, you're in laws, all of those familiar relationships that I suppose with you on a daily basis, you don't get a break. You are always somebody's daughter, somebody's granddaughter or sister or brother or whatever. I still think that there is a need for us to be able to understand all place within that set up, whichever that setup is, and to try and establish an identity for ourselves within that space and not let it be assumed that that we are this person, that everybody has this perception of us, that you are trying to compete to meet the different perceptions we're trying to be, that for everybody, for the different people, because then you are not yourself.

You are always seeking to get approval from somebody based on who they think you ought to be and what persona you should have at that particular point in time in terms of your interaction? I think how does one so the question then becomes, how does one claim one autonomy and establish oneself that people react to rather than seek to define for you with the sipping river and a such as parental relationships as well.

I think obviously there is a difference between the dynamics between a daughter and a mother and and maybe the kind of male side as well. But it is fundamentally in. My POS is kind of have competing meet if everyone's 20 meet the need and quite fuck that way, basically. So it can be. But I think that's really has been my experience that everyone's trying to get their needs met or not net. But they're just one in a very different way between women and men may be that I've had experience where I've been in a step relationship with my stepmother.

So I've been at the receiving end of where somebody feels quite threatened because I was from the first marriage, and I've been in relationships where I've been to my step siblings. I've kind of helped them grow up as well. And I've also gotten older sister who have met a lot later and also to some extent, felt the need parent or this. So it's been kind of cross. All of them have been very much about trying to get your needs met or not within this time.

Sorry for it.

And I was just trying to figure it out because I've had the experience of the girls and versus a boy, and it's true that the boy is so much less problem. The girls have created so much problems, so much heart take, so much suffering, and we do that to each other. And I just figured it out when I was listening to everyone. The girls are more emotional. And also there's a mirroring, the vase from mirroring of female to female. And so that's why it was so destructive that's in my experience, I'm not talking about generally.

But, you know, when we're looking at the sexiest thing that I was saying, you know, this way and that way it is just so much more pleasant. This relationship is so much more pleasant, and I just realized it even with my mother, the reason that we have first of all, the female is very emotional and responsive. And as the male seems to be more cool, it's got a more neutral mind. So I think that has a lot to do with the mechanics of the female daughters and relationships down the line, because it's so true that even though I didn't want to be like my mother rejecting daughters, I totally embrace them, even to have the third one.

When I knew I was going to have a third one, I said, I choose a female, even though the mail just gave me so much pleasure. And the mail really likes me. And we are so close together to explain it more than that. The milling is very strong, especially no instance.

Yeah, I think as many says, is really about everyone's trying to get their needs met and all of the other dynamics are overlaid overlap. And I think we've all come from a culture of patriarchy. And what happens in patriarchy is the man is supposed to be the a man is defined as a man by being head of the household and having people being the leader and having his.

A.

Man was always the one that made the decision, and an or was perceived as making the decision. And he wasn't a real man if he was questioned. And if he wasn't followed. And so for men, I think there's an element of power and an element of force. And the side effect of that is that women weren't allowed to talk. Women weren't allowed to be open about disagreement about doubt or in not following. And so I think what that generated was a culture when women had to be under the radar.

And so there's a level of manipulative Ness in not overtly expressing disagreement, but using more subtle ways of maneuvering people to the way that they fought. Because if a man couldn't lose face but didn't know what to do, he would accept guidance or input if it was subtly enough, they didn't threaten his position. And so I think there's a communication style where men aren't allowed to show down and women aren't allowed to overtly disagree. And I think Mrs. Like culture embedded over hundreds and thousands of years, which affects our communication style.

Now we've resolved that then.

Yeah. I think that general. It's about people want their needs maps, and people are trying to get those needs map, and they're using any which way. But there's so much because of all these cultural presses there. It's like the iceberg. This much is above and there's so much of communication is below the radar because of shame, because of the dynamics and because it's below the radar, we don't know what's going on and we can't deal with it. And so we just see the effects, but don't understand what's going on.

Sevilla Trick warning, suicidal rates in the UK, a higher in men than and women. So I feel like it's fair to say that because men are caged into this idea toxic masculinity, and they're told you can't cry, you can't show emotions, you can't be expressed it emotionally, and that confuses them because they're trapped in this idea of toxic masculinity.

Yeah, definitely. I think.

Yeah.

Because it's okay for a woman to be emotional to won't help it's much harder. Women have networks. Men don't. And there is this dynamic of so the problem with force, which is what manator with is you either overpower or you break. And so people who use force and relationships great relationships. And then there just becomes this bitterness. And there's lots of men are sinking into bitterness. And I think, you know, like this in cell and red pill movements and things that are just full of bitter. Men are still using force in a way that they can never get what they want.

So that's family relationships before we go is anyone got any comments, insights for to leave us with.

Which is really helpful. I think we covered a range of different things. I wasn't sure what to expect, but I sent me I'm leaving with some insights.

So that's been really helpful and nice to see you on here. Thank you. Okay. Well, thank you, everyone. I think the next one we're going to do is going to be friction free relationships. But I'm moving from weekly and I'm deciding whether it's fortnightly or monthly because basically we've been going for about a year and there's so much stuff and it tends to be like 3 hours, 4 hours. And I'm looking at how do we, like a three hour or four hour recording is too much for anyone to go through.

So I'm looking at going through and pulling out the best bits. And it's too much every week. And also we've covered so much that we're just going to kind of leap around so that there's enough space. So at least it'd be two weeks or four weeks. But that will be the next one.

Can I ask a question here, Rob?

Yeah.

We have gone through a lot of a lot of information. We've gone through a lot of theory, which for me was I opened it because I I tell you, it's not my area of expertise in anyway. But we have also brought in to some degree our own experiences as much as we are willing to share, etc. But are there any interest in case studies that we could look at that could help us to draw some of these things. And I don't mean complicated things. I mean, just like, you know, sort of issues that we could talk about that would help us to draw things out a little bit, even a little bit more, because sometimes we don't want to talk about ourselves.

But if it's a neutral thing, you know, we can. And because it's not anybody's business, it's is X and Y, if you know what? Yeah. Just some interesting insights that, you know, like things that which is some late.

Okay.

So let me just make sure I'm understanding. So when I used to do groups, I used to do quite a lot of model dilemma work. So we give them a moral dilemma. So a scenario is that the kind of thing you mean, like set up a scenario where people can discuss?

Yeah, kind of sort of get your teeth into it in a way. And without it, being has been a personal attack on anybody. But at least it allows you to bring some of what we have done back into the Linux and sort of integrate this stuff because we have done them in topics is different, but it's all integrated. It all comes together some in various ways sometimes.

You know, I try that that. Yeah. So basically what I'm thinking is I'm thinking once a month we'll talk about an idea sharing idea. But the other idea I had was to have a session of conversations. I really think that conversations are the key. It's how we connect. And there is some work to there is some work in showing that the effect that conversations have on our brain in terms of as how we develop connection, not just sharing information, but development connection. Yes. So that could be like a conversation session or a team project solving thing.

Yeah. I'll think about that. And if you have any ideas, you can let me know in terms of contacting anyone else. If everyone's on meetup, you can message people if your settings are open. But one of the things is here. We are actually free groups. So there's Bristol, London and Sheffield. So if you want to put in the chat where which groups you're in that you'll be able to get in touch or you can get in touch with me and I'll pass it on to anyone.

Okay? You can save the chat so that you've got that details. Okay? Yeah. So if you have any ideas, Sandra, or anyone else, let me know, and then we can work that out. All right. Well, thank you, everyone, for being here for sharing and for sharing experiences and all growing together. So I'll see you in over two to four weeks, so have a good month. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

You, too.

Thank you.

Very much.

I'm a new message to the number as well. Or one, if that's okay. Yes. I'm going to text you. Is that okay?

Perfect. Thank you.

Hi, everyone.

Loiterer.

Maybe we very much next time. Bye.