Sometimes we have to remind ourselves who or what the true enemy is…

Sophia Kianni is an Iranian-American social entrepreneur and activist. She studied at Stanford University and is the founder of Climate Cardinals, the world’s largest youth-led climate nonprofit, with 10,000 volunteers in 80+ countries. She is the youngest United Nations advisor in US history. She was most recently appointed to serve on the EPA’s National Youth Advisory Council.

In the fifth episode of season 3, Confessions of a Climate Activist, Clover chats with Sophia Kianni to explore how cancel culture impedes activism and how to redirect our energies to keep pressure on institutions with power. Stay tuned to hear Sophia spilling her climate confession.

“We’re all just a series of contradictions. Nobody is perfect. The eco-influencers aren’t perfect.” - Sophia Kianni

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Website: https://www.sophiakianni.com/

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Clover Hogan:

Hi my name’s Clover and you’re listening to the Force of Nature podcast. This season, we’re diving into “Confessions of a Climate Activist”.

What comes to mind when you picture an activist? Is it a person glued to the road? Someone with a reusable coffee cup? Maybe, a teenager holding a microphone?

Whatever it is, I want you to let it go — because I’m about to invite you behind the scenes. You’re going to hear from activists on the stuff that doesn’t get talked about. Burnout; getting cancelled; the ethical compromises of making money; imposter syndrome, and even what it’s like to alienate friends and family.

See this as your how-to guide when understanding and navigating the nuances of activism and barriers to action in the climate space. Over the season, we hope to find some answers: namely, what activism can look like when it's more open, honest and human. Make sure to stick around to the end of each episode when our guests spill their climate confessions.

After all, we don't need a hundred perfect activists - but millions of imperfect ones.

Clover Hogan:

Last week on Confessions of a Climate Activist, we caught up with Isaias Hernandez on unpaid labour within activism — and the binds we’ve both found ourselves in. He spoke candidly to getting called out on social media for some of his brand sponsorships, which opened up a conversation about the rise of call-out culture within activist communities.

Many of us have learnt to deal with hate on the internet. Greta Thunberg was embroiled in scandal when photographed with plastic packaging on a train.

A friend of mine made national headlines, and received rape and death threats, when she walked through a field of bluebells — damaging some burgeoning bulbs.

I was branded a hypocrite by the CEO of a multi-billion-dollar aviation company for flying to COP21, as a 16-year-old.

It’s easy to dismiss this trolling as old white men in need of therapy. However, it’s a different ballgame when the rhetoric comes from within the movement; from folks who are meant to be on your side.

There was the activist who called me a “sellout” for talking to people in big corporations. Or the activist who told me I needed to be “held accountable” for attending an event hosted by a politician they disagreed with. A peer questioned if I could really call myself an ‘activist’, given I’d never organised a protest.

I often fear that if I voice an opinion that deviates from the collective, I’ll be framed as some kind of infiltrator or sympathiser “to the other side”. On social media, if I remain silent on issues I know little about then I’m “complicit”… but if I read about an article about an issue and post about it on my Instagram — then I’m “performative”. This really affects how I use my platform and how I engage with the issues.

We recently surveyed some of our global youth community at Force of Nature: astonishingly, 83% said they had chosen *not* to share a cause they cared about for fear of being called out. I’m keen to hear from some of them now.

Community member 1:

Community member 2:

Community member 3:

I can even begin to explain as an activist or as a climate practitioner or an eco-communicator in today's world is so challenging. And why is it so challenging? Like, it shouldn't be challenging, right? We are working towards the environment. We are working to make this place, our home, a better place to live for all and our future generations. So why are we the ones who are being targeted and singled out and called out for the work that we do?

Clover Hogan:

It’s interesting to hear how many young people grapple with this label of ‘activist’ — especially through the lens of how they’ll be perceived or judged by others. It can often feel like our movement is descending into a circular firing squad of mutual mistrust and blame: weakening our collective capacity to work together. This is also preventing folks on the outside from wanting to engage.

We're all working toward a common goal, to make a difference and bring about positive change… so why does it feel like so much energy is being spent fighting with one another, when we should be working together to keep the pressure on institutions with power?

I’m keen to dig into this further, so have invited my friend Sophia Kianni to explore this with me. Here she is.

Sophia Kianni:

Hi, I'm Sophia Kianni. I'm a 21-year-old Iranian-American climate activist. I'm the founder and executive director of Climate Cardinals, which is a youth-led nonprofit working to make climate education more accessible to people who don't speak English by translating climate resources into over 100 languages.

Clover Hogan:

So in today's episode, we're talking about something that we have chatted about previously one-on-one, which is the kind of scrutiny of activists and especially the kind of call out culture within activism that both comes quote unquote from the outside by way of like trolling, but also within the movement itself. calling other activists out. Before we dive in and speak to some of our personal experiences in this area, I'd love to hear first from you how you might define call-out culture or cancel culture within activism.

Sophia Kianni:

Yeah, I think the way that I look at it is when people are looking to first publicly critique someone else's activism without first trying to have a conversation with them to understand the circumstances and or to explain why they were offended or perceived something the wrong way.

Clover Hogan:

Ahead of today's conversation, we asked our community at Force of Nature if they'd ever chosen not to post about a cause they cared about for fear of being called out or quote-unquote being cancelled ad 83% of them said they had. So I think this is a very real kind of like fear and point of anxiety for a lot of young people. I'd love to hear in the past, you know, eight months or so when you've been using your platform to talk about climate, has that fear kind of affected you? Has it made you kind of question whether you should post or how you post about different issues?

Sophia Kianni:

Yeah, I think that like pretty recently, probably like a few weeks ago, I wrote like a pretty long post basically talking about how I felt like the environmental movement had become pretty polarizing and honestly, in my opinion, very ineffective because of its focus on individual consumption and behavior. And I honestly was initially a little apprehensive to post that because I didn't want people to think like I was promoting, like, you know, go outside and have 10 burgers and like buy 10 mega cars or whatever, because obviously that's not what I wanted to do. But Like I wanted to make the point that, which you always talk about too, that by focusing on these little things, like we were actually driving people away from the movement rather than inviting them with open arms and under like meeting them where they were at and really using our time and our platforms to educate people about like the fossil fuel industry and the larger picture. And I was actually very happy because I feel like the post was actually one of my most well-received posts and a lot of people said that it was very comforting to them. Because so many people didn't know the statistics that I listed out. Like they didn't know to what extent the fossil food industry was like responsible for global emissions. And it made them feel so much better. And that to me was really important because it made people realize like so few of us are actually part of the problem. But we all have the opportunity to be part of the solution. But I do sometimes like I think I was pretty apprehensive to post that but because of the... the reception to it, it was very motivating to see that other people like kind of resonated with my point of view. But I do know that there are other activists who don't feel the same way and who very much are on the we can only take boats to travel sort of wave and that's okay. I think it's just more about realizing like there's a lot of nuance and we all have different perspectives. But it's more so like I'm not going to judge someone else for their perspective and I hope that they will at least like want to have a conversation with me rather than... like judge me publicly.

Clover Hogan:

Are there other kind of like themes or messages that you've put out into the world that have received more of that kind of scrutiny or backlash that perhaps you weren't anticipating?

Sophia Kianni:

Yeah, I mean, I think that it's really interesting because I use my social media, or I at least before really did, more just like for personal use, like as a 21 year old college student. I was very surprised that when I first went like quote unquote viral, like I received so much hate and backlash for my outfit choices and like just the way that I conducted myself. I found that super harmful because I think it's important to portray that I am just a normal 21 year old college student. Like I do want to go to parties with my friends, like dressed up in cute, silly costumes. And I do want to take like fun, silly selfies and like post them on my Instagram. But then, I guess, this perceived notion of professionalism or a specific way that people think a climate activist should sound and look and carry themselves is not, I guess, the way that I am. And I think that in the beginning, I had never really faced that before, but I now just have really learned to just get over it. I think that I now have really learned to just kind of realize that people's perception of me does not need to influence my perception of myself. And at the end of the day, I can balance the identity of being a college student who also just wants to authentically enjoy themselves and showcase that to people. I don't know why joy is so stigmatized while also carrying myself in a professional context. when it is of course deemed appropriate and necessary, but I'm obviously not a UN diplomat 24-7 in a suit and I don't think it would be fair to portray that on social media.

Clover Hogan:

I love that you have embraced being multifaceted and having these different dimensions of your online persona because I think that's something that so many people really struggle with. There are often times where because I started my, like I used to have a personal Instagram account, I deleted it for a number of years. And then our mutual friend, Ziyad, was actually the one who basically bullied me into getting Instagram. And he's like, if you want to build your platform as an activist, you have to use social media. And so I started it in that context of public speaking and being an activist. And I really miss the kind of days of just being able to like post very freely on my Instagram and know it was like a safe community and know I could like be funny without fear of like being misunderstood or yeah, being like a little more quirky, I guess. And I'm now at a point where, yeah, any- time, there's even an ounce of doubt in my mind about how is this going to be received, is this going to be misinterpreted, or people not going to understand the sarcasm, whatever. I'm like, okay, close friends story. That's the easy out. But I think that also creates this real divorce in people's perception of who I am on social media versus who I am in my personal life. And I think also because I've been in climate activism since I was 11. Like also trying to identify what those parts of my identity are outside of this work, I think has been like a real journey and at times been like super uncomfortable as well.

Sophia Kianni:

Yeah, I really resonate with that. I think that like I constantly struggle with that of just thinking like, how do I want to be perceived and how do people perceive me? I feel like this isn't something I really thought about actively until like I started to gain a bigger platform. I think my entire theory of change always has been the way to have climate activism be effective is to have it intersect with mainstream culture. I think climate activism should be part of your whole identity, but it shouldn't be an identity because I think that's how everyone should view themselves as a whole person and people with diverse and multifaceted interests. And then... A portion of that is also having this identity of caring about climate change, which we all should do. I want to also portray that to other people of being a climate activist doesn't mean 24-7 talking about climate change, engaging in the work that we're doing. It means also just being a normal person and going about your day and then also caring an extraordinary amount about this issue. that is going to impact all of us. And so, I mean, I still struggle with it. I have no idea. Like, I feel like I've just now been just going off of vibes and being like, okay, like I think that I, I've been using my platform and I've like talked about a lot of the work that CloudCardinal is doing or like shared resources that I think are really important. And I also loved this dinner that I had with my friends. I think I look really cute. And I want to show people that I am still able to enjoy myself and conduct myself in the way that a normal college student would. Because I think a lot of what I've been trying to understand is like, who is my audience? Who am I speaking to? And I realized for Instagram specifically, most of my audience is very young people. It's people my age. And people my age are not going to relate to me or think that they can do the things that I'm doing if they don't see the other. portions of my life, which are much more fundamentally relatable to them.

Clover Hogan:

I'd love to get your take on this in terms of the rise of, quote unquote, eco-influencers and the inherent contradictions of hero-worshipping individuals and individual leaders and young people with the importance of focusing on systemic change and institutional change. How do you think we more effectively navigate that?

Sophia Kianni:

It is totally like I understand why people would want to use their platforms to promote like sustainable living or sustainable goods. Like I don't inherently think there's anything wrong with that. Like I think that promoting that as the solution to climate change is untrue. But I think that we all should feel empowered to like live more sustainably and it is better to promote more sustainable companies than it is to. promote companies that are obviously just prioritizing profit over the planet, like giving people that choice is important and using your platform to promote that is a good use of a platform. I would just say that if someone is doing that, then like I think that they are not really in the place to critique someone else given that like it inherently is hypocritical to also be like, okay, like I'm... I'm accepting payment and money in order to be able to promote these solutions while also saying like capitalism is the reason why we're in this situation. We're all just a series of contradictions. Nobody is perfect. The eco-influencers aren't perfect. The people who aren't eco-influencers, but who might have a cup of Starbucks coffee once in a while are also not perfect. I think that that's why it's so crucial to... also do self-reflection before critiquing others. Because I always, when I see activists even accepting a brand deal that I feel is a bit problematic or I know that the company is not truly walking the talk, I would never publicly call them out because I know that I also am not perfect. I don't hold myself to an extremely insane standard that I know is unrealistic and I would not expect the same thing of others. And I think that's been something that I've been very mindful of. And I would encourage other people to be mindful of, of like, when you are critiquing others, you should also like think about whether they could also critique your behavior and, and about inherently how we all should just encourage each other to do the best that we can.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah. I do suspect that oftentimes that kind of criticism comes from an awareness of like one's own kind of inconsistencies. I think it is really hard to navigate that line sometimes. I had this experience a few years ago now and I still don't know how I feel about the situation. There was a friend of mine working with someone who had a really major platform in the fashion industry and this person took on a brand the same time positioning themselves as, I wouldn't say an activist, but talking a lot about sustainability on their platform. When I raised it with my friend, they were like, oh, it's really hard, it's nuanced, blah, blah. They're trying to shift, etc. I was also like, but I feel like some of the rules around individual actions don't necessarily apply to this person because they are so privileged. They actually have the finances, the resources, the... global reach to be much more discerning in which brands they choose to work with and the kind of culture and lifestyle they choose to promote. It was kind of this back and forth conversation that we had over many months. There was one point, and it was very spur of the moment. I was in my emotions, but I saw that the brand that they were still a sponsor of had this Black Friday sale basically and were selling garments for like 30 pence, 40 pence. And all I could think about was just like the rage that I felt in that moment toward the company specifically and knowing, all right, if that's what you're paying for a pair of jeans, then what is that garment worker making, right? And I felt so irritated that I was like, I posted about it on social media, on my story, and I tagged the person. I tagged the person ambassador basically. And It essentially ended my friendship with the person who was very close with them because they were like, I can't believe you would call this person out so publicly, why would you do that? You have access to this person, why wouldn't you just sit down and have a conversation? My response was, frankly, I was feeling pretty fed up because I tried to facilitate that conversation. Two years in, there was no real change happening. And I do think, actually... having public scrutiny at times. I think cancel culture in a way can serve a role. But even depending on the day of the week, I feel differently about that particular moment. I don't regret being passionate and heart-led and motivated by my feelings. I probably regret not having consulted my friend on it beforehand and prioritizing that over that interpersonal relationship. I participated in that call-out culture and I've also been on the receiving end of it. I think it's very murky a lot of the time and also when it comes into conversations around privilege and influence. I know there are certain activists who have taken on brand deals for example because they're single-handedly supporting their family and they haven't found another means of making money as an activist. All this nuance comes into play and I just feel like it's very messy. I also just feel like we don't talk about it enough. It's like, I disagree with someone and so I'm just going to disregard them or cut them out or whatever rather than actually having a conversation and saying, okay, well, let's talk about why we disagree and let's talk about the inconsistencies within this. wherever you land on that opinion spectrum, I think we can probably acknowledge that social media is not the best vehicle to have those very nuanced conversations.

Sophia Kianni:

I think I also have been trying to do a better job of separating my feelings towards things and the objective way in which I can align with people on mutual goals and furthering shared passions. Because, ultimately, we all have different stances on everything regarding personal consumption. Just the general stances we have, every single activist is completely different. It makes no sense to lump us all into the same basket. But with that, and I think that I had a similar stance of I would see activists taking brand deals that I felt were just inherently extremely problematic, and or just doing something that I just didn't agree with, or having a stance that I didn't agree with. and I think I have now just started to realize that ultimately we all are full of, we're all hypocrites, we're all hypocrites in a broken system. And obviously there's a line when people go too far, I do think there is something to be said. But in almost every single case, there is much more common ground that I share with most people than I do differences. And we are so much more strong as a united front and finding common ground to unite around common goals than working in like fractured pieces all over the world. And I think specifically like the activist movement I think has done a really bad job of forming meaningful coalitions and working together. Instead like we really tend to work in silos because of this movement in fighting. And I just think that's really unproductive. And so the more that I can try to facilitate like helpful conversations with my friends and other activists so that we can all work together on advancing shared goals is what I personally have seen to be. The way that I honestly just feel most comfortable as a person, I think I also had to start to realize at the end of the day, I need to also just conduct myself in these spaces the way I would conduct myself at school and with my friends, which is I have a certain personality and I'm gonna convey that personality in my work. I'm just not a... like a call out type of person. Like it's just not, it's just not something that sits right with me or it's just not something I'm good at. And I would rather like, I enjoy having conversations with people and I enjoy just generally being positive. And I think it's important for people to like live out their activism authentically in accordance to like their own personalities and values.

Clover Hogan:

I'd love to come back to this point that you raise around where we kind of like draw lines as a movement because As you touched on, there's this real diversity of theories of change. There are some people who are incredibly radical and participating in nonviolent direct action, for example, who in many ways are holding the line. There are the people who are more like the diplomats in the movement, bringing more diverse voices together. Then there are people who are even within corporations, for example, who are trying to be those agitators, trying to be those disruptors. I truly am of the belief that- everyone has a role in this movement and we need that diversity of theories of change because there's no silver bullet solution. That being said, I think there's a really interesting shift in the framing of this conversation happening within climate and particularly around how we engage with institutions of power, how we engage, for example, with fossil fuel companies. Someone who has spoken to this a lot publicly recently is Christiana Figueres, who's also on this season of the podcast. And once upon a time, as Secretary General of the UNFCCC, her position was very much how do we bring everyone around the same table? How do we actually invite the fossil fuel industry to be part of the green energy transition? And for the first time very publicly recently, she came out and said, I acknowledge that I was wrong. The fossil fuel industry has had its opportunity to come to the table. Instead, what we've seen over the past two years is... when fossil fuel companies have made record-breaking profits, they haven't followed their volunteer commitments of actually investing in renewables. They've doubled down on fossil fuel expansion. So actually, no, I don't think we should let them into the room anymore. I'm very much paraphrasing but that was really the sentiment of this statement that she came out with. So I'd love to hear your perspective on what does it mean to draw a line as a movement recognizing that yes, we need this diversity of theories of change. But actually, there might be some initiatives or organizations that are kind of enabling an incremental approach to climate when we recognize just how urgent this crisis is.

Sophia Kianni:

Yeah, well, I mean, I completely agree with her. And I think that that in my mind is also the line. I agree with you in the sense that, like, I think almost every single person has a role to play in being part of the solution. But there are some people who are just clearly part of the problem and that's the fossil fuel industry and they've had enough time to change the way that they're behaving and they haven't. And I think that to me is an effective use of cancel culture. Those people, the people who are working for them, they are inherently perpetuating a system of greed and exploitation, full stop period, very similar to a lot of the fast fashion industry. there are just certain lines where it's like, you know, if you are accepting sponsorship or like using your influence to promote something like Shein and recently had like this huge controversy of influencers going and greenwashing their factories or like just perpetuating absolute falsehoods. So it's like that to me is extremely reckless and irresponsible and just not okay. And I think that those are like clear instances where the line is pretty firmly drawn in the sand, but that is rarely the case. I think that most situations require a lot of nuance.

Clover Hogan:

I love everything that you've shared there, Sophia. and just one final question. Before I invite you to share a climate confession, what do you think good looks like? If you think about the role of social media, if you think about communicating, what do you want to see more of going into the future in terms of how people engage on these platforms and can in fact use them as a tool for good?

Sophia Kianni:

What I would say is, I think most of us know what good feels like and what it looks like. I think every time I've talked to someone, they've been very forthcoming about when they've posted something or when they've done something or accepted a sponsorship or conducted a facet of business when they thought it was wrong. I feel like we all have a pretty good gut check for being able to discern right from wrong. So... I mean, just like on a high level, I would just tell people to be honest with themselves. I think that's what I've been doing a lot of recently is being honest with myself. Like, it's really easy to want to make excuses or want to justify your own behavior, justify someone else's behavior. I had this conversation, I was on this panel and the person I was interviewing said something and I have not stopped thinking about it. And he was like, most people, especially young people, the biggest thing they lack is the ability to be able to self-reflect. And he was like, they're mostly you guys, it's so easy to lack in self-awareness. And it sounds like such a simple concept, but it's actually really, really hard to be honest with yourself and to sit and truly dissect. Do I feel good and confident in this decision? And I think the more that we are able to have honest conversations with ourselves, the more we will avoid quote unquote bad decisions. At least that's what I've been trying to do is like being honest with myself about. Why am I posting this? Why am I taking this opportunity? Do I think it's a good thing? I think truly investigating the outcome of every decision that you're making and thinking about whether it's more good than harmful will lead all of us to just use our platforms in better ways.

Clover Hogan:

I love that point. And I think we're at this moment where we recognize that we're not gonna solve the climate crisis with the same tools and methods that created it. And oftentimes I worry that. we're lapsing into the same kind of like measures that created the climate crisis in the first place and we have to really question, yeah, where are our actions coming from? And I think there's a place for anger, there's a place for frustration and anxiety and sadness and all of these things. And yet we also have to really ground our movement in community and connection and love and solidarity. And I think having that time for contemplation and insight and being really reflective is necessary to make sure that we are being really intentional with our words and our actions. We are making decisions that feel aligned and we are also allowing ourselves the grace of being complex, inconsistent, multifaceted human beings. As a final point, Sophia, I'm going to ask you to share a climate confession. one point of hypocrisy or inconsistency that you want to publicly out yourself for, I'm going to go first to provide an example. So I was really scraping the barrel here because I've done this so many times. But something that I was thinking about today is the number of festivals I've been to over the summer. I love a festival. Most of the festivals I go to are very like earthy, crunchy, wholesome. Yet every time I go, I realize just how massive their environmental footprint actually is from the diesel run generators that are brought in to bring power to the amount of plastic waste from food trucks, food waste from those food trucks, even just because they're often in rural England or Wales or wherever, having to taxi around to get to these remote locations. I've realized that maybe the pace of festivals that I've gone to are not super sustainable. So I'm going to be reflecting on that going forward. That is my climate confession. What is your climate confession, Sophia?

Sophia Kianni:

Yeah. Oh my God. I love this question because I've thought about this a lot because I will never forget. So I had gone to Europe to speak at this big tech conference. And I thought it was really important because it was just a general tech conference. And I was pretty much the only climate speaker and I was the only youth speaker. And it was a bunch of very well-to-do business people. And I was like, well, they need to feel some pressure and accountability. And I had this suit that I have worn several times. I don't even know. God knows where I got it from so long ago. And I brought that in my suitcase to wear. And I... ended up I had a layover and they lost my suitcase. So I arrived and I did not have an outfit and I had nothing. And so I panicked and I was like, well, I'm in sweatpants, like very gross sweatpants and there's no way I can go speak on stage in my like, you know, 10 hour flight sweatpants, like sweat suit situation. And I mean, I am also like a broke college student. Like, you know what I mean? Like I, so I, and I'm in Europe in an extremely expensive country and I have no idea what to do. I don't know where to go. I don't know where to shop. And I ended up like making a friend and she took me to this shopping center. And I remember we entered the first shop and she was like, oh, this is like a very nice, like sustainable, great. clothing shop and literally a suit was a thousand dollars. And I was like, there's, I just literally, there is no way I cannot afford this. Like that is ridiculous. Like, and then I ended up going into like a fast, not like fast fashion, like I'm not gonna say the brand cause I don't wanna promote them, but I ended up going into like a fast fashion adjacent retailer. And then I bought a suit for like whatever, a much, much more reasonable amount of money. But I remember feeling so guilty because I was like, God, I hate this. I hate it so much. But this suit looks great on me and it's a really good price and I need an outfit and I can't find a thrift store and I have no idea what to do. So I ended up like buying it. But I remember like, I think I posted almost like no photos from that engagement. because I hated my outfit so much, both because I didn't even like it that much because I liked my other one so much better, but also because I was like, God, I wonder how many people are gonna look at this and be like, I know where that suit is from. It's from like, insert this brand. And it was just, it was so, wow, I feel like weight of relief, the confessional. It's like a confessional.

Clover Hogan:

Honestly, it is like therapy, I atone to your sins.

Sophia Kianni:

It is, yeah. Thank you, thank you, I feel so much. But it also, to me, also was a very good reminder, again, of I am not in the position to, or I do not want to be the person who is responsible for passing judgment on others. That's just not the role that I want to play. I want to play the role of like... inviting conversations and inviting people with open arms with their flaws and all.

Clover Hogan:

It's been such a pleasure chatting to you Sophia. I feel like I've learned so much and also in turn feel very validated by everything you shared.

Sophia Kianni:

Well I always learn so much from you and it's such a like pleasure to talk to you. It's honestly like I can't think of a better way to spend an hour than to be talking with you. It's a pleasure so thank you so much for having me on.

Clover Hogan:

I really appreciated this conversation with Sophia: especially the fact that when we hear from or observe someone we disagree with, our first instinct can be to call them out… yet it’s become clear to me today that this not only creates more of an echo chamber; it also diminishes our ability to work with one another. If 83% of our community fear speaking out and saying the “wrong” thing online: how many voices are we missing out on?

This conversation also showed to me the limitations of social media, in reducing a whole nuanced, complex person to the curated things they post. I really love Sophia’s approach to showing up as her whole self; and not feeling like she needs to fit in the box of an identity that so many other activists feel trapped by.

Carrying on with this theme of identity, I’m keen to understand how other activists define their work — drawing a line between activism, and their personal lives. I’m also keen to understand how they navigate some of the more challenging dynamics, like relationships with freinds and family. So, for next week’s episode I’ve invited my friends Jamie Windust and Fehinti Balogun to share their stories.

In the meantime, if you enjoyed today’s episode and are thirsty for more Force of Nature content, you might want to check out episode episode 2 from Season 2 — where we dive into the role of media, and how it has shaped our relationship to the climate crisis. When you’ve listened, drop us a comment and let us know what you think.

Clover Hogan:

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This show was brought to you by Force of Nature and OneFinePlay. From OneFinePlay, Kasra Firouzyar is the editor and producer. Connor Foley is the producer and researcher. From Force of Nature, I’m your host, Clover Hogan, and this season would not be possible without Meg Stillwell and Isabel Flynn.