Kelly O’Mara and Feisty CEO, Sara Gross, are coming to you straight from USA Triathlon's Endurance Exchange conference in Orlando, where the entire triathlon industry gets together to talk coaching, data, and where the sport is actually headed.

We went for a few reasons:

1. to run the first women-focused coaching workshop,
2. to launch the Feisty Women’s Performance podcast,
3. to catch up with friends and athletes,
4. and to hear what the numbers say about the future of triathlon.

And what we found? A sport in the middle of real change.

Lessons from the Feisty workshop: why coaching women isn’t just about hormones, but about context, communication, and the reality of women’s lives from pregnancy through menopause and beyond.

Then we head poolside to catch up with Taylor Knibb, who casually drops that she plans to race pretty much every distance this year — with Kona in the mix and the Olympics coming fast in L.A. Her coach Dan Lorang was also at Endurance Exchange, where people were (somehow) still telling him he should try heat training.

We also talk with Michelle Lake, coach of 80-year-old Kona finisher Natalie Grabow, about what it really takes to train older athletes — and why gratitude, communication, and consistency beat everything else.

And finally, USA Triathlon CEO Vic Brumfield breaks down the state of the sport:

1. Membership is close to pre-COVID numbers, but race starts are down
2. Events have stabilized after a big drop
3. The 20–29 age group is surging
4. But 40–49 participation is declining

Which raises the big question:

If younger athletes are showing up for short-course, one-day experiences, while older athletes used to be the repeat-racing backbone of the sport… how does triathlon evolve?

This episode is part behind-the-scenes, part coaching clinic, and part reality check on where triathlon is heading — Feisty style.

FeistyFest Info: https://www.wetravel.com/trips/feistyfest-feisty-media-1943243299#about-this-trip

Courses and Coaching: https://feisty.learnworlds.com/

Women's Mechanic Camp in Tucson: https://www.wetravel.com/trips/women-s-bike-mechanic-camp-tucson-az-feisty-media-24985624#about-this-trip

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Feisty Media Website:

https://feisty.co/

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All right, Feisties, welcome to a special episode.

It's Kelly o' Meara here.

And this week Katie and Joanna are taking off because I have the original feisty Sarah Gross with me because we went to Endurance Exchange in Orlando and we're bringing you a special episode from Orlando.

Please.

Everyone wants to.

What is it?

The most magical place on earth.

Because we were like, right by Disney's era, the most.

You wouldn't have known all the.

The only time I got out of the hotel was to run around a 1 1/2 mile loop around the, like the hotel, you know, grounds perimeter.

Yes.

So we could have been like on top of Disney and I wouldn't have noticed, but.

Hi, Kelly.

Why did we go to Orlando for Endurance Exchange?

Right.

So at Endurance Exchange this year, we had a very nice partnership with USAT and we presented a pre conference session about the science and psychology of coaching women.

So people were able to sort of sign up for that separately.

And I was really happy to have like 40 coaches who were all like, super interested in learning more about like, how to specifically, like, what the specifics are around coaching women.

Yeah, I mean, because we talked in the com.

In the session, we talked a whole bit at first about like, why.

Why you need coaching specific to women.

And even afterwards, like, I talked to Aaron, who's our.

Dr. Aaron Ayala, who's our like, resident feisty sports psychologist about like, because even the title, like, do women have a special psychology for performance?

Like, why.

You know, that's literally how we started kind of the first, I don't know, say 45 minutes or so of the session of like, why we need to talk about women specifically, both on the physiological side and the psychological.

Right.

Because there's like obvious physiologic, physiological differences.

And so of course we talked a lot about like the hormonal cycles being the biggest, most obvious difference.

But there's.

But then Aaron also talked a lot about.

It's not just.

It's not just like, oh, women.

Women have a different psychology.

It's also comes from all these societal structures.

Right.

That they exist within.

It's a lot about like the external forces, like the culture, the expectations, you know, like the ways that we.

And.

And for coaches, to help coaches understand that fuller context and through like a woman's lifespan too.

Right.

Like, that might look different if you have young kids than if you're feeling like the pressures.

Pressures that a young woman might feel or through perimenopause, menopause and beyond.

So.

And I feel like people are taking a lot of notes.

It is always funny because Celine Yeager and Aaron Ayala were presenting and they kept coming with these examples, and they were.

I could be like, is this an example from your life?

This feels like an example from your life.

This feels very specific.

And even when those, you know, they were using examples of their life from their life or from someone they clearly know very well, you could see so many people, People in the room, like, nodding along to so many different.

You know, I think at.

At in general, I find that, like, the reason, say, five years ago, why we didn't talk more about women's specific needs is that it's so diverse that it's like, what are we talking about?

You know, like.

Like five years ago, I used to go to triathlon conferences and literally, marketing directors or owners of, like, big companies would come and say to me, like, come to sit beside me at a break and say, hey, Sarah, how do we market to women?

You know, like, we cannot answer that question with one thing.

Right.

So we have to talk about, like, really niche down into all the specific situations that women are in.

But it really surprises me, like, we put that clip up on social media where Aaron talked about a coach understanding the context of potentially an athlete having lost a pregnancy.

You know, and I think five years ago we would have thought, well, that's super specific.

You know, how many.

That's niche, not we, but I mean, just contextual.

But then you're like, it's actually like 30% of women have gone through pregnancy.

Yeah, Like, Right.

Actually, a huge number of women, you know, lose their pregnancies.

This affects a lot of people.

And we're not talking about it in the athletic environment.

So just kind of bringing up all the possible examples like that, you know, I think was kind of one of the big wins.

Yeah, it was great because along with the workshop we did before this conference started on Friday, Aaron also did a presentation on Saturday about communication strategies, kind of like specifics on what coaches can utilize with their athletes, on, like, how to talk about difficult topics.

And it did have some female specific examples, but it was also just, you know, broadly, like, how to broach these topics.

Because there are things you probably shouldn't say.

Right.

I know.

Like, right.

Like you're missing a lot of workouts.

What's going on?

That's not really, like, not how to.

My favorite was.

Is.

Is it that time of the month?

That's not a great way to start that conversation because it doesn't come across well.

Right.

And so many coaches Like, I think even female coaches struggle with how to, like, they, you know, they're aware, we're aware now that we should be talking about these things or at least getting our athletes to track their cycles.

If they're like regular cycling and they know, but, you know, then how do you approach that?

So a lot of Erin's advice was around like empathy and curiosity, you know, like that I would say that's how I would summarize her framework.

Like, start with like an open ended question.

Like, I noticed that last week you didn't, you know, you weren't able to go as hard in some of your, you know, is there anything up?

Right?

Instead of, instead of like, is it that time of the month?

Is it that.

Why are you being such a. Yeah, exactly.

And her whole talk, which a lot of people told us was kind of one of their favorite sessions, or like, was very, very helpful because it, because it's really nice to hear from experts in their field as opposed to just, you know, coaches talking to other coaches, which has its own value, but to also hear from experts on like that specific top topic.

So her whole talk is actually going to be an episode of the Women's Performance Feisty Women's Performance podcast next week.

So if you are like, wait, I wish I had heard it, you'll be able to hear her whole talk with all of its specifics on that podcast.

Because Aaron is the new host of our brand new Feisty Women's Performance podcast.

Lots of very specific, female focused, science backed answers that are not just for athletes.

Like, I was just listening to the.

Not just listening to the first episode because obviously I listened to it before it went out, but I was just like going through all the stuff.

And obviously we talk a lot about athletes because we're like triathletes.

But so much of this is also relevant to like people who just want to like run twice a week and go to the gym or like just they, they just want to be like, healthy.

And that's a thing that exists in the male universe.

Like I. Longevity.

What's the other word they always use besides longevity?

Optimization.

Optimization, yeah.

And they have all these like, very specific routines.

But then for women we're like, oh, performance, but I'm not an athlete.

Right.

It's like, no, that's.

Yeah, like we want to just perform in our life overall.

Right.

And a lot of the advice coming through that podcast will help us do that.

So you should also send your questions though, because Erin's going to join us on this Feisty Try podcast to answer.

She is a sports psychologist by trade.

Longtime worked with female athletes on sports psychology issues.

So send your questions in because she's gonna be here next week with me and Katie and Joanne.

And I know Katie has just, like.

A list of questions.

Oh, I'm sure.

I can't wait to hear Katie asking Aaron some questions.

That's gonna be great.

One of the other reasons, of course, that we went to the most magical place on earth is because we wanted to catch up with all, you know, like, you and I.

Even though we talk every day, we don't see each other that often.

So it's also like catching up with people in the triathlon universe.

I intentionally was like, I'm sharing a Kelly.

So we got to, like, we got to have sleepover time.

Sleepover time.

Perfect.

And I feel like I did a lot of catching up with our next little clip here with Taylor Nib this weekend, just, you know, in passing.

Taylor always has lots of.

Lots of insights when she's not at a race.

Right.

She has a lot of thoughts because she's not, like, stressed out.

And so we caught up with her by the side of the pool next to the water slide.

We had Linda, our head of education, and Linda will tell you why they are friends in this little clip.

My name is Linda Rowan.

I am from Feisty, and I am welcome.

Going to join today with Tyler Neep.

Is that your name?

Yes.

Nice to meet you.

Is it the first time we've met?

No, we met five years ago at St. George 7.3 World.

Do you remember?

I was a pro who was very unprepared.

I decided to do the race, like, two weeks out, and you gave me a place to stay.

And then I raided your fridge pretty much.

You're wondering why on earth there's a cake in the fridge.

You asked.

You opened up the fridge, there's a cake.

And you said, whose birthday is it?

I'm like, no, it's just race week.

I have a cake.

She's got the best memory.

I don't remember.

I do remember the St. George.

I don't remember.

I do remember thinking, she's very unplanned for a pro.

And I do recall getting.

Getting nothing strange.

I'm gonna come back to that question.

I do recall having a whole lot of food in the fridge and her saying, whose is this?

As she's putting it in her mouth.

Well, thank you for letting me stay with you and letting me do that race.

It's a pleasure.

And now I hope so.

Yes.

One of the things that we are now at endurance exchange.

And as a friend, I want to ask you, what do you do to keep yourself educated?

What do I do to keep myself educated?

Like, I'm doing endurance exchange.

It doesn't have to be about triathlon.

What do you do in life to keep yourself thinking, educated?

I read.

What, books?

No, what?

Actually, this is one of the questions when I watch you get interviewed by commentators.

They creep and you see them.

What is that question that Taylor is asking that commentator?

You turn questions around really quickly on commentators, don't you?

It depends on the commentator.

Do you like challenging the commentator?

I like challenging everyone.

That's way more the point.

Now, let's go back.

What book are you now reading?

So I'm reading the Happiness Hypothesis by Jonathan Haidt and then the Academy by Ellen Hildebrand, because I have one fiction book and one nonfiction book at all times.

And so because I like.

Because I like to, like, have different books for different purposes.

And one's to relax me and one's to learn.

So when do you read fiction and when do you read nonfiction?

Yeah, more in the morning or, like, so when I'm at my kitchen counter or, like, sitting up, I'll read nonfiction and take notes.

And then I read fiction when I'm more, like, relaxing and want to chill.

So it's more my mood and what I need.

Okay, I'm gonna go back to that chill.

What does chill mean?

Tail.

For tailor Nib.

Well, it's just me.

Just you sitting down, relaxing.

You can sit down, relax.

The mind goes and you just be.

Is that easy for you?

I guess that my level of chill would not classify as chill for anyone else in the world.

Yes and no.

I'm working on it.

I can relax sometimes.

So you're working on chilling.

What else are you working on?

Nib?

It can be anything.

You can tell us everything you want to tell us about your race plan, or you can tell us what you're doing next week.

Whatever you want to share.

Oh, well, next week I'm going to Portland, Oregon for the HOKA Global Athlete Summit.

So, yeah, it's kind of.

I looked and there aren't any direct.

Well, there was one, but not on United to Portland.

So do you need a friend to go with you?

Do you want to come?

Can you share anything about racing triathlon?

If you want to.

I hope I'll be doing every single distance except for 100k, but even that, I hope I Like there are a few that I'd want to do if it fits in the schedule.

But otherwise, yep, I hope I do every single distance.

And is there a race that you go?

That's my race.

What do you mean?

Is there a race that's sitting as your priority?

Every one of them.

High achiever, aren't you?

You're a high achiever.

That's all I say to that.

I have a question.

I read an article the other day that the record for Iron man is being decreased the time in women by 89 seconds per year.

So the race record, do you think you will be the first woman to break eight hours for Ironman?

No, because I don't think I'll do.

I think it's very course dependent and I don't think that I will be doing the courses that would be helpful for that.

Might not be this year, but what about next year or the year after or.

You like those really challenging courses, don't you?

Oh no.

Something else.

Can I ask more about something else?

Is that in LA?

It's in California, yeah.

Okay, great.

But we'll see.

And Taylor, what do you hope to gain out of being at Endurance Exchange?

I'm here to spend time with my coach and I've already gotten to do that, so it's kind of a win.

And then I get to see people like you.

So I mean, that's what I hope to gain.

Have a fun weekend.

Oh, thanks, Tyler.

Okay.

So Kelly, what I gave.

That was Taylor.

That was.

That was Taylor at her best, perhaps.

Is it.

The thing I really related to there was that when she was talking about how she reads.

Oh really?

How she does her nonfiction.

Just her nonfiction reading.

Like sitting at a table and taking notes.

Like when I was.

She's 28, right.

When I was her age, that's exactly what I did.

Like my ongoing learning process about sport and sports psychology and stuff like that would be always like I'd always have a book where I was like had the book open, I would take notes and then I always had, you know, a novel beside my bed.

That's weird.

This is deeply not something I ever do.

I've actually, I've actually talked to other people about this who do it and I kind of wish I had sort of time for that routine still because I feel like I don't.

You Know, like, you don't learn as much.

Right.

I read widely and broadly and a lot and quickly.

And I always just feel like when things keep popping up and they stick in my head, then I'm like, that's the important.

Like, I will remember.

That's sort of my logic.

Right.

Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah.

But, yeah, I thought it was funny.

I know.

So Linda, who is our head of education, and Taylor have been friends for a while, and I knew that, but I didn't know how they had met.

And now I do remember St. George 70.3 that she talked about where they met, because I was there for triathlete and Taylor got third.

And I.

And it was the year that the pouring rain, if people remember this, and the barricades blowing into the bike course.

And it was crazy.

And I do remember this, like, there's this pro who wants a room.

And it was like, does anyone have an extra room?

You're like, well, that's awesome.

But it ended up being Linda who.

There you go.

Who gave her the room.

Yeah.

I feel like maybe she has gotten more.

More organized since then.

Yes.

More.

You can't.

You couldn't put that out, that notification Now Taylor Nib is looking for a room.

It would be.

You get a different response rate is basically what I mean.

Yes.

I had a lot of, like.

Yeah, just kind of in passing in the hall, you know, the conversations you have, like, in the halls at these things, some with Taylor, some with other people where I feel like I learned a lot of stuff.

What's the word that isn't for public consumption from different people.

And I was like, all right, we're just going to file that away in Kelly's brain.

I was thinking that, too.

Yes.

I think we were part of a couple of the same conversations, but one of the really fun things that happened was who had the Watt bike.

Oh, yeah.

So Training Peaks had a.

Like a Watt bike out at their booth in the Expo.

Our stuff did not make it across the Canadian border because as we're going to talk about, uncertainty is a big challenge in the triathlon space right now.

So, yeah, we weren't able to have our booth space, but we were able to take over the Maximum power challenge because we brought our ringer, Aaron Ayala.

And I guess, like, the Training Peaks didn't have.

Kelly, you did it too, right?

Yeah.

So they had this Watt bike and there's like a leaderboard for if you just, like, peak wattage.

Right.

So it's not even.

Like you didn't have to hold it.

It was just hit a peak on Zwift, which I've never done.

Like a.

Like the.

The Watt bike.

It's weird, right?

Because it, like, changes as you go.

Like, I don't know if you've ever done sprints on your own bike.

It's not the same.

And Linda went over and explained to them, like, look, you have an overall leaderboard that's all men.

And we're sitting here having all these conversations about how to bring women into the sport, bring newbies into the sport, and.

And some new person walks up and is like.

Like, I can't do this.

Right?

And they feel like, yeah, that's fine.

It's not a big deal.

Like, it's not.

Oh, my God.

We're telling them they can't participate, but they feel excluded or they feel, like, weird about it, or they're.

You should have a women's board, too.

And she told him, if you do, we'll come back.

So they.

Kudos to them.

They.

They brought.

Got their person out to make up a whole little women's leaderboard.

And then we went back and I had to put a number up so that there was some women's numbers right on there.

So you put a solid number up.

I remember in my skinny jeans and.

Yeah.

Nikes.

And then.

Yeah.

Then Aaron.

Aaron was like.

She warmed up.

She like.

And honestly, like, Aaron.

Aaron's a cyclist, right?

Yeah.

So she has the training, and she also, like, has the quads for this situation, you know, so she.

I think she would have been.

By the end, I didn't see it.

The.

I didn't see the final board, but kind of, like, on the.

The end of the first day, she was just kind of in the middle of the men's board, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So she really put up a decent number.

So there was a lot.

A lot of fun.

You know, a lot of fun was happening.

Fun was had at the conference.

And then there is kind of a number of things people come for, right?

They come for the connections, the networking.

But then there's also a whole bunch of CEUs and coaching education you can get there, which obviously was part, like, our workshop was one of those things.

And then there's kind of this, like, data and state of the sport and, like, where are we at?

Which we'll talk about in a minute.

But the coaching element.

So, like, Taylor was there because her coach was doing a whole talk, and her and him also weren't, like, talked about their relationship, which she, like, might share too much information with him was kind of the.

Shockingly the joke.

But then he did a whole talk and about just like, coach, you know, his journey and, like, the coach relationship and working with all the other people in an athlete's life.

And I just thought.

The one thing I thought was funny that has nothing to do with anything.

And then we can talk about other things we learned was that after Kona, because he is Taylor's coach and Lucy Charles Barkley's coach, Dan Loren.

So obviously they both had bad collapses.

And I guess all these people came up to him after and were like, you know, you should really do some heat prep.

That.

Honestly.

Okay.

That makes me feel so much better about.

Because sometimes, you know, sometimes when people come up to you and say something that ridiculous, like, as if you didn't think of it, like, that happens to.

Me quite a lot.

I'm trying to think of a situation like that right now.

Something will come to me, but, like, it happens to me a lot.

And sometimes I'm not sure where the intersection is between, like, me being female or.

Sure, you know, I'm not.

Or I'm not that tall.

Like, some of these factors that, like.

Or sometimes I'm perceived as young.

I mean, not so much anymore, but traditionally.

And so.

And you and I have talked about this stuff before, but, you know, and people give you the most obvious.

See, and it's.

Apparently it's not just you because they're doing it to Dan Loren.

They're doing it to Dan Loreng.

I'm like, about the very thing that he is literally the best in the world at.

Like, you know, I'm like, okay, it's not just.

Remember when there was an online troll.

I'm gonna call this person a troll.

But someone online was giving a Danielle Reef advice about her saddle height when she was posted a video.

And she just kind of said, well, that the saddle height worked for the world record, so I'm just gonna keep it, if that's okay with you.

You know, so it's not.

It's not just Daniela.

It's also.

The coaches get it too.

Yeah.

So it might be triathlon.

There's a triathlon.

There's an intersection of factors.

Intersection of factors.

Triathlon's probably one of them.

Yeah.

But yeah, apparently Lucy also is hyponatremia, not heat stroke.

But anyway, separate point.

So there were a lot of different kind of like, coaching talks, science stuff, protein, which I did not go to because I don't care about protein.

What things did you feel like?

Did you feel like you learned Anything you picked any up new tidbits here and there from our talk or from any of the other ones you said.

In.

You'Re thinking about it because, I mean, we'll hear from Vic Brumfeld in a little bit.

And she like, this is not.

What's the word?

This is not deep insight.

But she picked up that she should leave comments more often and communicate with her coach.

Oh, yeah, that's a good one.

She picked that up from our session, right?

Yeah, from Aaron.

I definitely picked something up, but I'm blanking right now.

Sorry, you're blanking.

So you're like.

Well.

Well, we did talk in that vein of coaching.

We did talk to one of the other big sessions that people really loved and was well received was Shelly Lake spoke who is the coach of Natalie Grabo, the 80 year old, who is the first ever 80 year old to finish Kona, who we talked to back in Kona.

And so she did a big talk on what it took the coaching to get Natalie to that finish, start line and finish line.

And then we chatted with her kind of briefly after that.

All right, Shelly Lake, the coach of the famous Natalie Grabo.

I always say that one.

Grabo or Grabo.

I think it's Grabo.

Okay.

I wanted to ask you, since she like blew up, well, first woman ever at 80 to finish Kona, what has it been like for her but for you, are you getting all kinds of 80 year olds asking to be coached now?

So.

So actually, no.

Surprising.

And I did get two inquiries yesterday, but for her it's been crazy.

I did text her this morning.

I said, how many appearances have you done?

And she.

I think it's been probably at least 50 or 60 because I keep learning of them.

But she said one of her things on a rainy day is she's gonna write down all the places she's been.

But I mean, I could list them if you want, but it's a lot.

There's a lot for sure.

But when your 10 year old goes to school and his teacher says, is your mom Michelle Lake?

Because I read about her in npr, you know, you've made it, you know.

Yeah.

Did you expect it to be that big, like inspired that many people?

I thought it would be, actually.

I mean, I think her falling was definitely great for like.

Oh, right, the finish.

When she fell, she fell.

Which.

A funny story is that my husband and I were at the top of the hill there, like at the top of Palani, end of the Queen K when you make the right turn.

And I Said to her, just whatever you do, don't fall down.

Because it was raining.

And I was worried she was gonna fall right at the finish.

And then she fell at the finish, like, literally.

But I forget now what your question was.

Oh, yeah.

It inspired so many people.

And you're right.

I think the falling right on the finish line and then getting up just made that video.

That's what made it viral.

And the funny thing is, we woke up in Kona the next morning, and my husband was on the front page of Reddit because he was her catcher.

He's the one that's in all the videos that shows up right after Cherie, and he's like, all my friends are asking why I'm here.

But we knew it was a big deal.

We had always planned on going, and so it was pretty crazy when it happened.

And being able to be there was fantastic.

So it was really important to us to be there, but I thought it would happen.

But, you know, you never know.

Never know.

You never know.

Never know.

And tell us, so how long have you been coaching her and what have you kind of learned?

I mean, we talked to her and Kona about some of her training, but I feel like you probably put a lot more thought and science into this.

You'd hope, right?

So we knew it, but I don't think we spoke about it.

It's a big thing that I didn't want to create more stress, like, do no harm.

So it was kind of a secret.

Like, I would tell friends about it.

Oh, yeah, I'm doing this.

But it wasn't something we were going to, like, put out there.

So, you know, you just don't know if it's going to happen.

So we were trying to take it day by day, but, you know, pretty crazy that it happened.

Like, if I think you were asking, like, what's special or what's different or the science to it, it's really being interactive with your athletes and getting to speak to them a lot.

Because I think this.

This is as high performance as, like, a pro.

Like, you know, like, we.

We need, like, everything to go perfectly, including the weather, which we were lucky.

It wasn't too super bad.

I think it was, like, kind of an average year.

If I. I don't know, you guys may know better.

I feel like it was average.

But we knew that there was going to be a lot of things out of our control.

So we were going to be on top of things as much as we could be, which would be like every day.

How are you feeling?

How did this go?

How did that go?

You know, can, can we push it a little harder?

Do we need to back off?

And that was probably the most important thing in the science was the interaction in the coaching versus what the actual plan was, if that makes sense.

And like in all of your.

I mean, because you coach, you don't just coach 80 year olds, you coach a number of athletes.

So when it comes to like the older athletes, I know, like we talked to Natalie, like the durability, the, you know, being able to like put into the mile like you, you have a lot of years on your legs and your knees and your.

So how do you kind of adjust the training plan to.

For those athletes, less running straight?

We do a lot of run walking.

We got her back in, we got her into strength training, something she had never done before.

So that was really important.

You know, doing a lot of the fitness in the bike and the swim where it's safer.

And we really.

I probably didn't do a good enough job, but making sure she was running slow enough probably is a big thing.

And I think the athletic age.

So she didn't start triathlon until she was 59.

She learned to swim at 59.

So I think she told you guys that.

So she wasn't exhausted, you know, like Natasha Badman, I wish I had the numbers.

But she didn't start triathloning until she was in her, like 20s.

So she was racing really well.

Older because she had less, you know, age.

That's certainly a big help with her in her situation was she wasn't exhausted by the time she was 80.

You know how many people tell us like, oh, I'm gonna go to Kona when I'm 85 once.

I'm the only one in my age group.

Like, I hear that all the time, but it's like you've been racing your whole life.

Like, she luckily set herself up.

And I think a lot of the good athletes in her age group, which they are a, they are a crew, they watch each other, they're very competitive, they know each other, they sometimes.

The athlete I used to work with that referred her to me, that was the same age they would deconflict races like, you're going to go to Kona this year.

I'm going to go to 70.3 worlds, like, things like that.

But they know each other.

But they also, I think a lot of them started later.

I don't think they were.

I mean, what an interesting thing, if you do get to talk to Natalie again, which I only learned in all these interviews, is that she didn't have title nine.

Right.

And I think that's something that I hadn't even realized.

She was not an athlete much before she started running and playing tennis and things.

But because she didn't have title nine and we are so lucky to have that, like fabulously lucky.

And that maybe is why some of these older ladies started later.

That set me up for my next question was going to come which we have a wave of women coming up now in the age groups who were post title nine.

You know, we have this whole.

And so they are going to be racing into their 70s, 80s.

What advice do you have for them?

A lot of things, probably mindset.

Okay.

Gratitude.

Every day we have to be grateful that we can keep going.

I mean, a lot of us have older parents and you know, we're in that age group where we're watching our parents age or you know, aunts and uncles.

And I've had a lot of people come up to me after my talk yesterday about like, gosh, this is so important to me because, you know, I'm talking to my parents about their health and how much gratitude that she is able to keep doing these things.

And I will say that the most beautiful thing is she never complains about training, training ever.

And she goes, oh, I'm so happy.

I have a three hour bike ride on the trainer today.

I don't even know if I think she listens to music and she just sits and she doesn't have a kicker, so she has the old school trainer and she just watches her watts and hits the lap button.

You know, I don't think I've ever.

Said, thank God I have a three hour bike ride on the train.

Yeah, she loves it.

And she's like, this is the best part of my day.

Like, it is amazing.

And I'm so like, there was a couple days like she just drove on Monday to the Sherry Show.

They brought a limo.

She lives in North Jersey.

So a limo came to our house and she's, you know, sent me all these pictures of her in the green room and getting her makeup done and she said, I didn't get to work out today.

So I mean it was an okay day.

Like I really prefer the days that I get to move and I get to do things.

So yeah, I mean it's gratitude really.

Like gratitude And I think I have worked with other athletes sometimes that aren't grateful for what we get to do and getting to keep moving.

That's probably the most important part.

You know, the training and stuff is all kind of whatever, you know, it's.

The gratitude that's amazing.

Well, thank you so much for chatting with us and, and for, you know, coaching such an amazing woman.

So thank you.

Thanks.

Okay.

One thing that, that I thought, I think has been really cool since like coming out of Kona and then watching because you and I knew like quickly when our reel about Natalie started to go viral and we had interviewed her beforehand and we were one of the very few, you know, media outlets that interviewed her.

So we were getting good reach on our stuff and we knew like, oh, this is gonna go bananas, you know.

So I've seen since some clips of her on Instagram and fairly big, you know, nationwide news outlets.

And I was a little concerned, I think.

And I think we even talked about this like immediately after the race how how nervous and non media trained Natalie was before the race to this complete transition to like the clips I was seeing on Instagram where she's just like confidently owning her shit and you know, and on all these big podcasts.

And I was, I really thought like, good for you.

Like she not only had this big, you know, confidence boosting win in being the first 80 year old to finish or 80 year old woman to finish, but also like she seems to have quite a few.

Like she seems to have come a long way with her media presence.

Sure.

So I mean, I think she was.

And Shelly mentioned this kind of to us.

I think she was nervous beforehand obviously, which makes a lot of sense.

Right.

When you think about it.

And then, I mean, afterwards she joked like I saw her afterwards like at in Kona and she was like, oh, I just went viral because I fell.

You're like, well, sure, but I think also like, yeah, also it was going viral.

Yeah, it is interesting.

And you and I have talked about this and we had posted something on social about it.

This whole idea that like she was pre title nine.

Right.

There's a reason that she like picked up, well, first tennis and then picked up some running in her 40s, like with her kids and then was like, oh, I want to learn how to swim in my 50s because she didn't have that opportunity before.

And she's talked about that.

Sharia Grunfeld's talked about like these women have all talked about this.

This isn't like when we posted this on social, somebody Was like, oh, women never stop complaining.

And I was like, like this is a fact.

Like we are stating a fact.

Like they did not have that opportunity because it was not the law.

And I thought it was, I thought it was super interesting that her athletic trajectory went tennis, running.

Because when you think of how those sports were growing back like in the mid 20th century, like tennis was first with its movement around having women's leagues, pro leagues, like there was a see it be it kind of factor to have it to tennis being very front and center in women's sports.

Right.

50 years ago.

And then you have like then the running boom and you know.

Catherine.

Catherine.

Switzerland.

Switzerland Switzer.

Thank you.

At the Boston Marathon.

And then you have that whole thing and then all of like the, the women that flooded into running after that.

So I feel like Natalie's trajectory was of course like it's probably the same as so many other women where they maybe even didn't even consider doing sports previously or maybe kind of wanted to, but was weren't sure if they could to like actually loving it.

And, and her, her absolute love for exercise is so clear at every time.

Right.

I've seen her on something every time when she was with us too.

It was like, she's just, I love it.

I just love swimming and biking and running.

You know, I was thinking though about like what Shelley was saying about how gratitude is the most important and how, you know, Natalie just like loves getting these workouts in.

Like, she doesn't complain.

She's just so happy to be able to do it.

Now if you weren't able to do something for 40 years and then you were able to, you would like, of course you'd be like, wow, I get to do this.

And then this also goes to what you and I were kind of talking about at the beginning, about how like women are not one market and they're.

You can't market to them.

And it's one thing because I will tell you there isn't a gratitude from 30 year olds that like, oh, wow, thanks for letting me do this.

Right.

And it is reflected like there is a reason 20 something women are like, what do you mean?

There aren't equal spots.

Right.

Like, I get it.

Like we're not going to go into that right now.

But I'm just saying there is a very different attitude.

It's not like, wow, I get to do this.

Like, sure, in the scheme of like it's better than all lots of things out there, but they are not.

You don't have that built in like, we were banned from doing this.

Now I get to.

You have, like, of course I get to.

I'm just as good as you.

I like.

I. Yeah, like, it's a different perspective and you have to like, also remember, like, because we're going to talk in a second about the changing demographics in the state of the sport and triathlon and I will say I think there is something to.

There is this wave of 20 and 30 somethings coming who have a very.

Different, different set of expectations.

And I think those things don't like, I think the gratitude and the expectations don't have to necessarily be.

It's not one or the other.

Right.

So you can be like, grateful that you're well enough to go out and do that.

You're healthy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like those types of things.

You can be grateful to live in a country where that's possible, etc.

And that you like, have the money and you have the time and like all of those things.

And you can be like, I'm expecting to be treated just like everybody else and not to be treated less because of my gender or any other reason.

And those two things can live alongside each other for sure.

So.

Because we're about to talk about the other stuff.

But that was one of the things I did think a lot about because there is this wave, like we are very aware at Feisty and it is our coordinates.

There is a wave of 40 plus women.

So I mean like older than 40.

Like they are the first generation to have like always had Title nine and they are hitting menopause and they are like demanding answers.

Right.

So.

And that's why we have these huge, huge efforts now to finally give them answers.

And so much of the questions that we get are aimed at that demographic.

But there is also, yes, another wave behind them that have different questions.

And that's why now you're getting like the pregnancy questions and like.

Right.

Like there is another wave of like, wait, what the fuck?

Coming from that?

And we see that like reflected and I think some of our stuff.

Yes.

And we.

Yes.

And we will help bring the science to life in our new.

Our newly iterated women's performance podcast.

Yes.

So yeah, it's like these questions came up in our workshop and, and came up when they presented kind of the state of the sport stuff on the last day, which is.

That's like the la.

The other big reason, I think a lot of people go to Endurance Exchange because they want to see the data, hear the data.

Like, are there more races?

Are there less Races.

What's happening?

Should we be who?

What are the demographics?

What are the costs?

Because everyone knows, like, their region.

Like, I can tell you how many new races there are in Northern California, like, off the top of my head.

But you don't know, like, national trends.

You don't know if it's just you.

And, like, a lot of the race directors I talk to there.

There's a lot of, like, uncertainty, but there's a lot of, like, questions, right, where they're like, I don't know what's happening.

So they present this data on the last day and.

And.

Well, we'll talk about first.

All right, Vic, I haven't seen you since Kona, so I feel like.

First, your thoughts.

How did the off season, how did the recovery go?

Oh, it's been amazing.

I've done hardly anything.

That's what we like to hear from triathletes.

Nothing.

Yeah, I'm taking the offseason to a new level.

Having said that, I'm still training 12 to 14 hours a week.

All right.

But I was going to ask you, not from your personal perspective, but, like, from a USAT perspective, what, you know, what went well last year?

What were the highlights?

What were the learnings?

The learnings.

That's where the biggest decline has been.

And we've actually seen a stabilization and slight growth.

Not significant growth, but enough that it's promising that there's momentum in the event community around getting more races started.

So it's not just a pandemic thing.

Oh, no, not at all.

There's been massive decline in endurance sports in general.

I think, obviously, running, seeing a really big boom.

So while we did see events coming back after the pandemic, we hadn't seen growth.

And so what we're starting to see now is not just stabilization, but growth.

And I think that's the most promising metric that we're looking at right now.

All right, I'm sure you guys had lots of meetings about this, but why was there a decline?

What do you guys.

What is your theory?

Oh, my theory of why there was a decline over the last couple decades.

It's complex and I don't actually know for sure.

I mean, I think we have anecdotal examples and we have theories and hypothesis on why we think that that happened.

I think it's a combination of, if you look back at that time, that's when there was this mass influx of new opportunities for tough mudder and spartan and color racing.

And so you had all of these new competitions for that same customer.

And then at the same time, when you see massive growth in any industry, it becomes more compelling.

And so then you have acquisition and consolidation.

And that was happening all around the board.

And then as you look acquisition, consolidation and mergers, you're always looking to consolidate, find efficiencies.

And then what happens is you decline the portfolio and then that just becomes a cycle where you have this cycle of decline.

And the biggest challenge in our sport is that getting permits is actually really tough.

And once you give up a permit or lose a permit, to get that back is really hard.

And so you have these events that took years and years of sweat equity to build, and then once they go away, it's really hard to reinvigorate those.

We are seeing some of those races coming back.

I mean, we've talked about it, even with Wildflower, right.

That came back last year.

So you are seeing investment in people's time and energy in communities trying to bring races back and start new races.

And I think that's going to help reverse that trend that we have experienced over the last couple decades.

So we're starting to see some stabilization, some growth.

That's good.

Well, I think this actually is connected to events.

So we have seen membership grow.

So that's really promising.

Right, because that's an indicator to us that more people are participating in the sport, but we haven't seen participation growing.

And so that's something that we're trying to understand.

Why is that?

We're still investing in technology to better understand people's behaviors, but right now we're assuming that's also correlated to access to racing because people need to be able to have access to short course local racing in order to participate more often, since that's where the bulk of participation is.

What is the saying last year, like, there are less triathletes and there are less triathlons?

Yeah, that's exactly right.

I mean, when you think about it, you would do your first 5k if your neighbor invited you to a local race.

You probably wouldn't fly across the country for a 5K and you probably wouldn't fly across the country for a marathon is your first race.

So we know that local grassroots racing invites people in.

So just by nature of those races going away or not being there, we're losing potential community.

I like, whenever I ask you what are your priorities?

You're like, Well, I have 10 top five priorities.

That's so cute.

I usually say I have 42 priorities, but no, if we really narrowed it down, our number one priority is getting more people participating in the sport.

And when you start to unpack that, that obviously plays into if you need more people participating, you need more people signing up to be members, you need more access to races, you need those races operating in healthy, scalable ways.

And so I think getting more people participating in racing is really what ricochets out into all of these other priorities for us since we do have 42 priorities.

All right, what are you looking forward to this year, personally and professionally?

Vic?

Well, the thing I love about my job is personal is professional.

So like personally going to drive up the participation rate.

But I am personally register well.

That's actually one of my greatest weaknesses is I register for everything.

So I have a hard time setting boundaries.

Personally, I'm really excited to compete in our off road nationals this year.

I think that's going to be really fun.

In Austin, Texas, Multi Sport Nationals.

I'm excited because one of the races starts with a slip and slide.

So I'm actually going to train here at the resort at Endurance Exchange.

There is a water slide that I'm going to try and do some reps on.

Taylor Davis telling me she wants to go down it.

We should all go down the water slide.

Whatever I do on that slide, Taylor will do better.

I'm confident about that.

But yeah, I'm excited for Multi Sport Nationals.

I'm going to do a full distance race in Europe this year, which I'm really looking forward to.

And then I just found out on the plane right over here, I got into the Leadville 100 Mountain Bike Race.

So those are some personal things I'M.

Looking forward to what, what else should we look forward to this weekend?

What do you, what have you learned so far?

Well, I went to the Feisty experience, so I learned a lot.

I think actually what I learned most from that experience is that I need to be a better coached athlete, that I need to communicate better with my coach.

But what's really cool about this actually is that like we thought, talk about when we talk to race directors or coaches who here is trying to foster community and everybody will raise their hand, right?

Like that's part of their core business, is fostering community.

But like, just like a coach needs a coach, people fostering community need community.

And so when we look at the business side of the sport, this is our community.

And I think what I'm going to learn most is just from hearing from our race directors, coaches and club leaders about what do they need and how can we make sure that all of these things that we're doing as an organization truly is translating to them improving the way that they work and how they're affecting growth and in the sport.

And just last, what are you hearing the most from them?

I mean, I'm sure you hear a lot of opportunities for learning and so what are the most common ones?

I think what it's different for coaches and race directors.

Right.

The race directors are the nucleus of the sport.

So when we go back to how do you get more people participating in the sport, you need places for them to go and they need to be able to participate more frequently.

So what race directors need is support and help from us of how do we connect the community around them to their races to get more people into the sport?

Right.

They have access to the athletes in their database.

What can we do to connect the greater community to more races and then encourage racing between all the different grassroots races that are accessible to them?

I think that will be really important for race directors and for coaches.

It's about how do we also connect them to the community, but then across both, how do we give them tools and resources to be better coaches and race directors?

How do we make sure that we have safer races, better experiences and coaches coaching athletes in a way that helps them have a great experience and stay in the sport long term.

And you know, you have to communicate with your coach.

Right.

That's what you learn.

Yeah.

And I personally need to actually put comments into the comments section of Training Peaks.

It's not just about making it green, it's about making it green with a little bubble that's says that I commented.

Well, thanks so much for chatting with us and good luck at Leadville.

Thanks.

I'm going to need it.

So obviously I said this in there, but the, the quote I always think of Sarah is you can't have triathletes without triathlons.

Right.

And I will tell you, like, so I was editor Triathlete magazine, like through the pandemic, right.

And this was hugely one of our issues because you can be a runner without having a race, right?

And you can be a cyclist without having said like you cannot be a triathlete without having.

Otherwise you're just like a person who exercises.

I remember having, yeah, I remember having this conversation during, during COVID Because it's like if you.

What makes a triathlete a triathlete, right?

And if you don't do a race, like if you swim, bike and run, are you still a triathlete?

Like if you swim, bike and run without an intention to race, like you probably are to some extent.

But it is very much like point taken though that it's much more defined by the events than, than running or cycling.

And like obviously it's also mentality because like I did do a race for like a year, two years or something.

I was like, oh yeah, I'm a triathlete.

So of course, yeah, it's the intention to eventually race again or if you've been a long time triathlete and you just continue your exercise patterns, then sure, you're a triathlete.

Not to insult anyone who's doesn't intend to race but is still a triathlete.

Like that's absolutely.

But is this like weirdly existential question?

Yes, like.

Right, because it's to Vic's point that is why there have been overwhelmingly focused on getting events back and getting restrictors back, particularly local events.

Right?

Yes.

Ironman is rebounding some to a degree, accounts for a slightly larger portion of races than they used to, but you're not.

This is changing a little bit because people want to do bucket listings, but mostly you're not going to fly to do your first ever race.

You're going to do the one in your town or the one that's an hour drive away that your friends are doing.

That's how it works.

Yeah.

That was, I think one of the best points she made there, that the access point.

If we're talking about getting more people into triathlon, the access point is your local event.

Although if I was the czar of triathlon, which I know is one of your questions that you sometimes ask because I Was.

I was thinking this as she was talking and as we were prepping for this too, that, like, what might work kind of in just looking at, like, the Hyrox model, for example, because people fly to places to do Hyrox, which takes about the same amount of time as a sprint triathlon.

Right.

So how would that be capitalized on?

And the answer, which is probably impossible for USAT to do, but it would have to be a private company.

But the answer would be that you have a.

You put together, like, a series of.

Of sprint distance events that are branded, that have a very defined experience around them that people can associate with.

Like, this is what this triathlon is.

This is what I'm getting out of it.

This is where I rank nationally or internationally with all of these races.

You know, most of the courses would probably have to be flat, and you'd have to.

You'd have to be able to kind of compare times.

But I think there is, like, if you had endless money and there isn't, there is kind of an opportunity to do that for someone who feels like pouring money in to a degree.

I think that is what supercharged trying to do now.

Like, there's a reason there, but obviously there are a lot of factors, and they kind of have to deal with what they're doing with their pros, which was one of the hallway conversations I had this weekend.

But that is like, there is a reason they've invested in sprint racing.

Right?

Because it is where the majority, even though we get.

Not we, but we, triathlon goers, triathletes get so focused on the long course, the majority, it's something like 75, 80% are still Olympic distance and shorter super sprint growth.

Especially when you talk about women.

Women, like, account for close to 50% of sprint racers.

It's like 46 or 47.

And that's what I mean.

That corresponds with what I saw at races this year and last year, the biggest.

So everybody's.

They're doing this whole talk about the state of square, and they talk for, like.

And all anybody wants to know is, like, is it growing or not?

Right?

Like, literally one of the guys next to me wrote down, but is it growing?

Like, so they say all this stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

Because he wanted to.

Like, there's a lot of hiding in the numbers.

Like, just tell us if it's growing.

So.

So in short, in sum, what Vic was saying is that the.

The events have leveled off.

There's a tiny.

It's like, you know, three more events in the country than last Year, like.

It'S not the number of events has.

Leveled the number of events.

And that is similar for participation.

And I would argue that probably people had deferrals.

There were like a whole bunch of, you know, like, pent up demand.

There were like people, there were race directors who wanted to come back and do their race like one last time.

So you had this kind of like overcorrection between two, and then it like dropped the next couple, like the next couple years, not all the way back down.

Right.

But it dropped like you can see.

And so their point is like, it has stopped dropping now and it's like leveled off.

And.

And this is true of USAT membership too, right?

It is pre Covid, it was like 330,000.

Now we're like 308,000.

So it's not all the way back up to pre Covid numbers in terms of membership, but like, it's close.

The number of actual race starts, like participants is all.

Is also level.

Like it's also leveling off, if that makes sense.

But it is not back up to pre Covid numbers at all.

And it is down a little bit from last year.

So if I think if you were going to say, like, where are we at overall?

Like, we are still down from pre Covid.

Now that I can like say a lot of numbers, but the problem is on podcast, numbers are hard to follow.

You're not supposed to say lots of numbers because people.

According to the rules of podcasting.

Okay, according to the rules of podcasting, yeah.

So give us something we can digest.

So the biggest thing though, the thing that like the charts and like, what they like, and I honestly was skeptical at first, but then they like really, really showed their work.

The 20 to 29 age group has skyrocketed in the last three years.

It grew 20% from last year.

It is now the second biggest age group in triathlon after the 30 to 39.

And did they have a breakdown of that?

Yeah.

Was it men and women?

They did.

They went like super in the weeds.

And it still mostly meant, like, it's still very similar to the yeah, but it's.

We'll get in a second.

Okay.

The biggest difference is that the 20 to 29 are one day licenses.

They are doing an event, maybe two and that's it.

They are not sticking around.

They do a triathlon.

Whether or not they stick around is kind of going to be like triathlon's existential question.

Yeah.

At the same time the 40 to 49 year olds who have and like 50 to 50 who have historically been the core of triathlon have steadily declined since coming back in the pandemic.

Like that is where the bulk of triathletes are.

Yeah.

And the problem for this is for.

Largely this is for the shorter.

Like this is for usat.

This is for all Olympic and under.

Or is this.

No, no, no.

USAT includes everything.

Usat.

This is why usat, these numbers are like consistently the most reliable because any event that is sanctioned in the US is captured in their number.

So this is all races, including Iron man races.

Now the majority of.

Okay, it does not include unsanctioned races which they're.

And like someone's going to say point this out.

Does not include unsanctioned races.

And there are some of those, they just, they're unlike.

Some of them are relatively big, particularly out in California.

But still it's like the majority of races, the majority of races are still Olympic and shorter, but it includes Ironman, it includes independent long course races which are arguably who's being hit the hardest.

So this is all numbers.

But they are only doing one to two events and then they're moving on to marathons or they're moving on to high rocks or they're moving on to grapplers.

That's it.

The people who have been the core of the sport forever and that Ironman is built on are those 40 and 50 year olds who do three or four or five events in a year.

And they are not any.

They are just leaving triathlon.

So the problem for or like you could think of it as a opportunity or a problem for race directors and particularly for Ironman and particularly for independent long course is that you have a whole model built on kind of like those, like those core.

Core.

The people who are like posting on Slow Twitch and they're dying like they are like that graph is very distinctly going down, down, down.

It's not just like, because they're like they are leaving.

And so now you are going to have to change your product if you want to get.

Because the 20 somethings are finding you.

They found you without you doing shit to attract them.

Yeah, I guess it's back to yeah, you have to change your.

Like we talked about this a little already.

But like you either have to change your product and I think that the second iteration of that, of my thought process was like, oh, you have to make it more repeatable and definitive and people know what they're getting and have ability to have the photos can brag about it on Instagram, you know those things and.

Or you have to figure out your marketing like that you have to actually be like reaching more.

You have to be reaching more of those 20 of those people like to 20 to 39 year olds or whatever and bringing more in to keep the numbers off.

If people are generally doing one and done.

Yeah, I mean the majority of triathletes period are one and done.

When you look at like USAT's historical data, it's something like 60% of everyone in their database has not return to triathlon.

Right.

Like it's like that's just, that is the reality.

But when you look at like the last two years, that age group is very much a.

And I will say, I will argue it's not just triathlon.

Like when you look at running spoon right now.

Yeah, I agree.

When we look at like the major marathons and they're selling out, there's very much, and this has been well documented 20 somethings.

They came of age in a pandemic.

They came of age in an age of uncertainty.

They are very invested in like wellness and health.

That's been like well documented.

And they're very invested in bucket list events like they want to do because fuck it, Sarah, man, you don't know what's going to happen.

You might as well do it now.

Well, yeah, or I mean, I think it's just, it's also just part of the attitude.

Like even, even if they're not like doomsdayers.

No, no, it's not.

I'm just saying.

But that is built into the core of kids who were.

I mean they like, they, they like.

Graduated college hybrid athletes, quote unquote on Instagram, things like that.

Where people are like, I'm gonna do this Hyrux event, I'm gonna go do this trail run.

I'm gonna do this Triathlete, like you're like picking and choosing.

They're just.

And the goal is like kind of an overall fitness level that goes across their year.

Right.

So I think too like diversifying the product as well.

Like not just making it more, a more dependable product, but also kind of okay, where are they on the super short, like the super sprint product that you could do with your friends, like something you could jump into.

And every year, no matter where you are in your fitness, you know, or making one that's like less or more, if that makes sense, like something to grow into.

Right.

And they have to be like attached or connected that way.

Like, people need to know that if they do the first sprint, the next thing is the Olympic.

The next thing.

And they could.

So that communication system has to be like cross, cross promote.

It has to be cross promotion of those events.

So I don't know, I think it's actually an interesting challenge for it is marketing.

Yeah.

Because at the same time that you need to present like you need to, you need to offer these 20 somethings who are very like, you can't just say like, oh, I know 20 year olds, I was a 20 year old once.

These are, this age group is definitely a different.

Yeah, like they respond differently to the world than you did when you were 20.

They have different forces operating on them at the same time.

You have to provide something for them.

You also do need to think about that core 48, 52 year old who is not returned, like who has moved on to gravel.

So I don't know if you can, I don't know if you can solve both those problems at the same time.

It's an interesting challenge.

It's an interesting challenge and then who solves it?

Right.

Because like as a federation, you know, like you're, you're very even as a federation, like you're supporting the growth of the sport.

Right.

But you're not, you know, like I'm just saying, oh, you need to get your marketing right.

Quote, unquote.

Well, like who's in charge of marketing triathlon, you know, like who's like, how is.

What, what is that?

You know, and then, you know, and your focus as a federation is going to remain to some extent on the Olympics and that Olympic, you know, the Olympic funnel and all of that stuff too.

So yeah, it's a very complex problem and one that I'm glad is not mine.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of people this weekend that I talked to, I mean they're especially race directors, like, they're Like, I just don't know.

Like, people are signing up later and later.

Like, costs are going up.

Like, I just.

Because people are signing up so much.

Which fair.

Like, I don't sign up for things until last minute anymore either.

Right.

Like, there are a lot of things built in.

There's a lot, A lot, a lot of uncertainty kind of in.

Built into like the US Economy, but the global economy also right now.

It's not like, it's not like, it's not like good uncertainty.

Yes, for sure.

Okay, Kelly, before we go, because I know we have a bit of a hard stop coming up, I. I thought of my big takeaway from the weekend.

Oh, yeah.

I stumbled on earlier.

Okay.

And as I was.

And it's going to be in the women's performance podcast on.

On Monday.

Right.

Is Aaron's talk.

Right.

From our.

Aaron's presentation about coaching.

Like, coaching few or coaches, like, how to have difficult conversations with your athletes.

Right.

And as I was listening, because I was listening, I was listening pretty intently because I was taking clips for social.

And I realized kind of halfway through that, like, every piece of advice she had worked as advice for, like, how to talk to your partner or how to talk.

Like, I was taking notes about how to, like, how to talk to my kid, you know, or how to talk to our team at Feisty or how to, you know, like, where the framework starts with, like, it definitely starts with like a curiosity around.

Like, I notice that this thing is happening.

Right.

Like, is now a good time to talk about.

It was like a common thing that she said and like, you could apply this to anything.

Right.

Like, I noticed that you didn't unload the dishwasher.

Is.

Were you feeling overwhelmed today or is there was.

Is now a good time to talk about it?

No, that's.

I'm just being funny with that example.

But I do like, I, I felt like I was.

I was thinking about, like, having evolving my skills of my communication skills just broadly.

So.

Yeah, it's for everyone, for sure.

That was your major takeaway?

That was my major takeaway.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Mine was uncertainty.

Mine was like, oof.

Everybody's like, big question marks.

And it's not just.

I mean, it's.

It's everyone.

Yes.

It's major uncertainty.

I talked to like a guy, hallway conversation, somebody who worked for LA28.

And we were both like, right.

So, yeah, that.

That was my takeaway was that everyone is sort of not sure what's going to happen.

And if they tell you they're sure what's going to happen, they are lying.

Yeah.

So on that note, Aaron will be joining us next week.

Katie and Joanne will be back.

I think Joanne might be in Lanceroti.

Anyway, we will have the team back together and Aaron will be joining us to talk about the mental common mental health challenges that triathletes face and like some tips.

So join us next week and go listen to the new feisty women's performance podcast.

Cool.

Thanks, Kelly.