If you've been a listener of this podcast for some time, you've likely heard me talk about the power of podcast guessing and other podcast collaborations. Whether or not you have a podcast of your own, guesting on other podcasts is something we should all be adding to our marketing plan.

I'm excited to welcome Melissa Burch, founder and host of Annotated ELA, on the podcast today to share her experience with podcast guesting. Melissa shares how, despite having her own show, the thought of guesting on other podcasts was really nerve-racking. She also shares the fears she had about guesting, the 3 things that helped her push past them, and how doing so has helped her grow her podcast and build new relationships.

And if you need some support, don't forget to grab my mini-course, Guesting For Educators!

⭐️ Resources Mentioned:

• Sign up for my Guesting for Educators Mini-Course
• Follow me on Instagram @podcastingforeducators 

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• Hosting: Captivate.fm (Get a free 7-day trial!)
• Transcription: Otter.ai
• Project Management: ClickUp
• Private Podcasting: Hello Audio
• Podcast Playlist Toolkit
• Launch Your Podcast: Free Podcast Launch Guide & Podcasting for Educators Prep School
• Level Up Your Podcast: Podcast Like You Mean It
• Leverage Podcast Guesting: Free Guesting Planning Guide & Guesting for Educators Mini-Course

Show Notes: https://podcastingforeducators.com/episode149

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Topics in this episode: tips for podcasters, educational strategies, marketing tips for TPT sellers, online educator tips

Sara Whittaker 0:00

If you've been a listener of this podcast for some time, you've likely heard me talk about the power of podcast guessing and other podcast collaborations. This won't be the last time you hear me mention it because it works. Whether you have a podcast of your own or not guesting on other podcasts is something we should all be adding to our marketing plan. I'm excited to welcome Melissa Burch on the podcast today to share about her experience with podcast guesting. She tells us how despite having her own show the thought of guesting on other podcasts was really nerve racking. She shares the fears she had about guesting how she managed to start trying it and how doing so has helped her grow her podcast and build new relationships. Melissa is the founder of annotated ELA where she supports teachers in writing instruction by helping them streamline instruction and provide meaningful feedback to reclaim their time and enjoy writing with their students. She's a classroom teacher with 19 years of experience and has a passion for creating resources that help teachers share the joy of writing with their students. Melissa took my mini course guesting for educators to help boost her confidence and feel prepared before pitching other podcast hosts. If this is something that you're ready to try, you can grab the link for the mini course in the show notes for this episode. As you'll hear Melissa say, guessing can feel a little bit scary, but you deserve to have your voice heard. Let's get started. Your Podcast is a powerful tool that serves your audience and your business. But how do you manage it all bring in new listeners and convert those listeners into customers. That's what this show is all about. Welcome to podcasting for educators. I'm Sara Whittaker classroom teacher turned podcast manager. And I'm here to help you get the most out of your show, all while making an impact on other educators. Good morning, Melissa. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

Melissa Burch 1:51

Good morning, Sarah. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely.

Sara Whittaker 1:55

So we are going to be talking about your experience with podcasts guesting today, which I'm very excited about. But before we get into that, can you just tell everybody a little bit about your podcast, who it's for when you started all of that good stuff?

Melissa Burch 2:12

Sure. Actually, I'm really excited. Next month will be a year from my podcast. So exciting. Thank you. It's the annotated ELA podcast. And it's primarily for middle school ELA teachers. And on the show, I say we because I love to have guests on there. We like to share writing and reading activities and strategies that encourage students to be better readers and writers. So helping teachers just engage those middle school students who are so hard to engage in reading and writing. And there's some episodes about hard truths about being a middle school teacher because it is hard out there. But there's also so much joy and good. And we just like to talk about all of that. Yes, I

Sara Whittaker 2:53

love it. I have a special place in my heart for middle school teachers, because I feel like it's such a tough age. I know that so many of you out there just you really bond with that age group. And I think it's amazing. And I feel like there's not that many podcasts for middle school teachers.

Melissa Burch 3:09

There is not so I mean, I have to say I did your podcasting for educators prep school course. And when you had us look through kind of that niche, there is not a lot. There's a few of us, but not a lot of us. So it's nice to be out there. And I do find other elementary school teachers and high school teachers that have like sped students have found me. But Middle School is a special age. So

Sara Whittaker 3:33

it is for sure. Now where you are is middle school, six to eight. Yes.

Melissa Burch 3:38

But crazily enough, actually next year we're changing it's going to be because the schools with universal pre K, they don't have room for fifth grade. So I am actually moving up to eighth grade next year. And I am moving over to the high school. So I have actually followed my students I was sixth grade, I moved up to seventh grade with them this year. And then I got lucky enough eighth grades, my favorite grade and we get to go join the high school.

Sara Whittaker 4:00

Oh my gosh, they're putting eighth grade in the

Melissa Burch 4:03

eighth through 12th grade where I am and then fifth through seventh grade. Wow.

Sara Whittaker 4:07

Oh, that's so interesting. I've never heard it done that way. A few of the school that county that I used to teach in elementary school went to sixth. Then Middle School was seventh eighth and then high school started at ninth and I didn't love that because I feel like the sixth graders are just like on another level and do not belong in an elementary school.

Melissa Burch 4:26

They really are. I was at a school where it was like, Elementary was que tu and then we were third through eighth grade school.

Sara Whittaker 4:33

Oh, interesting.

Melissa Burch 4:34

So you know, I think it just depends. But our eighth graders are excited and said, well, our seventh graders will be eighth graders are like we don't get to be the top. We're going to be at the very bottom.

Sara Whittaker 4:42

Yes. Yeah. The ninth graders are probably happy though because they're not going to be the babies of the school anymore. Awesome. Well, I love that you've been able to like follow your students each year to that's really special. It has been Okay, so let's talk a little bit about your experience with podcasting. So first, tell us So why did you decide to try guesting on other podcasts?

Melissa Burch 5:03

So yes, listen, it was a hard sell for me because I think a lot of teachers, we just want to be perfectionist, and I had heard you I consume your podcast and in the prep school, it was like, you have to guess get out and guests and I'm like, okay, yeah. I I'm not ready for that yet. Let me just like keep having my own guests. And so it took that constant reminder. And then having people on my show, I was like, Well, if this isn't so bad, they're on here. And I'm on here. And we're just talking and I just didn't feel ready. I was like, I don't even know what I'm pitching. And it felt weird to reach out to people I didn't know. So I got your guesting for educators because I was like, I need a confidence boost. So that kind of helped. And then I just like, Oh, I love collaborating. I mean, daily at school. I just love talking to teachers, and why am I holding everything back? Because imposter syndrome was real. I'm like, everybody already knows everything. I don't need to go on someone else's show. What do I have to talk about? No one cares, they already know. And then I thought, yeah, but I want to village around me, and I want to build my community. So I was like, Okay, I'm gonna give this a try. So I dipped my toe in by talking to people I was already friends with and having them let me be on their show. So it was a soft pitch to those people because they were already in my little business community, and it felt safe. And I finally just started branching out to pitching to people I didn't know. And I just decided, What do I have to lose? I better start listening to everyone and just get out there and do it. If I want more listeners and more people in my community.

Sara Whittaker 6:40

Yes. Okay. This is such a, this is such a cool perspective. Because you you know, some people will start with podcast guessing and that kind of like dipping their toe into the podcasting world, and then they might end up starting their own podcast. But in this case, you already had a podcast, and I love that you were able to see like, Okay, well, people are coming on my show I can, I can do this on other people's shows, and starting with people that you know, is really smart to get comfortable with the process. Because I feel you like when you're a guest on somebody else's show, it's very much like a release of control. Because a, you know, some people might not prep you very much before the interview. So you might be going in a little blind. And even if not, like you never know the direction that the conversations gonna go, you might feel kind of that pressure to perform really well, because it's kind of a one shot opportunity. So it can be scary. I've definitely felt that way before as well. Yeah,

Melissa Burch 7:38

it's definitely the release of control is hard, especially having my own podcast first. I was like, Well, I'm just so used to like sitting in the dark in my pajamas recording, and no one knows that I'm recording and then stopping and editing, and then have to be on someone else's show. And what if I have to stop? And what if I have to change? And what if I let them down? And all of those thoughts start racing through your head. But the worst that can happen is we edit it out. And I just had a really great conversation with someone.

Sara Whittaker 8:08

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I've even had people, guests who I've had on, contact me after the interview and be like, you know, I didn't really like the way that I phrased this or I wish I hadn't said that. Could you take that part out? Like that's always an option? If something happens and you like really hate the way that something went in the interview, did you I'm curious when you like first started reaching out to people did you have trouble finding shows to reach out to,

Melissa Burch 8:36

it's hard to especially cuz I'm more middle school. And there's not a lot of shows to get on. But I did get creative. I'm really lucky in the fact that I had gone through Amy Porterfield digital course Academy. And so I had a little pod group is what she calls them. And I really leaned into creating this little group to help me get through it. And I got lucky because one of them is actually an instructional coach in Texas, who also happens to be the president of the TCT ELA literacy Association, and they have a podcast and then she knows other people. So that helped already having kind of that network. Because I really believe in community over competition, like I just want that community around me. So it was hard, but I got creative and started thinking about Well, who else can I talk to even like the local library has a podcast so why can't I be on that? So I just started to get creative about where could reading and writing benefit other people?

Sara Whittaker 9:36

Oh, that's awesome. I love to hear that. And I know that that'll be helpful for people because find finding the right shows can be a little bit intimidating and it can be challenging. I think the the world of educational podcast is expanding slowly but you do have to do a little bit of digging and I love that you looked locally to I think that's something that a lot of us forget to do is look around in your community. And yeah, I've actually heard recently We have a lot of libraries, starting podcasts. So that's really cool that you made that connection. It's

nice when they're really active. Our Library's super active, so yes,

absolutely. So okay, tell us a little bit about your experience once you started podcast guesting? What kind of impact did you see that have on your podcast?

Sure. So I definitely started getting more listeners. I mean, great. The podcast is not just a one shot, it's there forever. So even if it's seasonally remembering to promote that even if the podcast episode was four months ago, or a year ago, remembering it's still there. But I saw definitely more downloads. The trick was is once I had new listeners, making sure I was putting out content that they wanted to come back to. So it did definitely grow my community I saw, usually right after an episode released kind of my biggest uptick in new listeners. So really trying to get them to stay in my community, what could I provide for them that would get them to stay with me. But I also saw the impact on just the connections I was making with the hosts. We could continue to work together if it felt right. So it grew my community not only in my business with who I was serving, but also grew my community and who I could work with on the business side of things, which was expected but not expected. Because you never know well, is this gonna work, especially when you're doing kind of, you know, you want to be on podcasts that complement what you're doing. So it doesn't always fit exactly, but it's just been really nice to connect with other business owners who are going through what you're going through. And I think that the listeners hear that relationship, and then they're excited to stay with me when they know that I'm open to that kind of thing. But my podcast is slow growing, I wouldn't say that I've had like meteoric rise, but it's grown every month since I started. And I think that podcasts guesting is really to thank for that.

Yeah, I love to hear it. I know, I, you bring up a good point that, you know, when you guests on a show, you're gonna see that biggest uptick, the week that that interview goes live, but there's going to be people who are going to go back to that episode as they become new listeners of that podcast or, or whatever, like I have, I've heard from people who are like, I heard you on X, Y and Z podcast that I did a year ago. And so that's always really cool to hear. And you bring up a really good point about how a guessing it just it does form those really great relationships, which is often an unexpected benefit of guessing. But it can also lead to more collaborations. Like I think it's important to remember that after you do that initial interview, it doesn't have to stop there. Like you could go back on their show later. Or they could come on your show and be a guest once or a repeat guests later down the road. Like there's so much opportunity, you could collaborate and other ways maybe, you know, down the road, they're going to host a virtual Summit, and you're going to be the person that they think of to reach out to,

yeah, it's been really helpful and exciting. And

to backtrack a little bit, I also just wanted to point out that I love how you kind of thought about okay, if I'm bringing in new listeners who have heard me on this podcast, how can I make sure that I'm keeping them around? And I think that's a piece to really consider when you're doing podcast guessing is okay. I know that my interview is gonna go live this week, how can I really tailor the content that's going to be coming out on my podcast for the weeks to come to make sure that those people are going to kind of stay in my in my world and stick around and continue listening? So did you think do you think about that when you guess like, do you kind of maybe put some extra intentionality behind the weeks to come in terms of the episodes that go out on your show?

Absolutely. Yeah. And it can feel overwhelming because I do try to get kind of a 30,000 foot view at the beginning of every year. Like what am I going to do for the first you know, quarter second quarter and try and almost have my whole year kind of loosely mapped out. Which makes it easier I think then to tweak when I do end up guessing I can be like okay, well I can stick this or switch these around because it's already kind of bland for me. But yes, I've been trying to be really intentional and I've made I made a goal of how many I wanted to guest on and then when I wanted to kind of be guesting to line up with things I might already have in mind and it doesn't always work out perfectly. But when it does, like I really wanted to try this summer to do the little extra episode along with my regular episodes since I'm going to hit a year and so I'm excited to have some kind of guesting things lined up right before that happens so that maybe when new listeners come in, they're gonna I get this extra pop of things. And I have special things planned for like throughout the summer and then into the beginning of the school year that I hope will be really helpful for them. So absolutely. I try to be as intentional as possible when I can make that happen. Yeah,

that's really smart to kind of have that big picture, especially if we're going to try those double episodes. Let me know how that goes. Yeah, I'm

nervous. I'm nervous. Yeah,

no, I mean, it's the perfect time to do it. You've probably heard me say that. If you're going to do those double episodes, try it during the summer. Yeah, yes. I

think it was a podcast episode you did with the stellar teacher. And she was doing double episodes. And I was like, Alright, I'm gonna keep that in mind. I'm not ready. But I think this summer, I'm ready for it. So yes,

yes. I love it. I love it. Have you found that it's kind of like all over the place in terms of like, when you guests on a show? Are people's timelines kind of all different? Like some people might be really batched out some people might be week by week? Absolutely.

Yes. Yes. I have one that was like, I'm not even sure she edited like, we interviewed and it was out faster than I was like, Oh, my goodness, I can't do it that quick, like, on my end. So I was impressed. But yes, it is all over the place. You just never know. And sometimes they'll be like, I'm not sure yet. I'll let you know. Are there like I know exactly when this is airing? Yeah. So yes. You just have to go with it. Yes,

absolutely. And it's another thing to consider like if you are going to try to use podcasting as a strategy before a launch or something new in your business, you really want to do it ahead of time, because you never know what that timeline is going to be for the host, which

helps to create those relationships, because then you can kind of be like, Hey, I think I'm launching something. Do you have room in your schedule? Once you've kind of created that relationship with someone? That's another way you can collaborate together. So yeah,

absolutely. Okay, so we talked a little bit about, you talked about how you were a little fearful in the beginning, we talked about that control piece. Was there anything else that you were that like, made you nervous about the idea of podcasting?

I think the rejection like what if someone just completely ignores me or says no, I think I'd prefer the know than just being ignored. Because, you know, like, I don't like, that's scary. It's scary to think someone doesn't want me. And then imposter syndrome creeps back in because, well, maybe it's not good enough. Or maybe I don't have something that's unique enough, and I wanted everything to be a plus work. So it's just your mind gets loud, especially if you have a rejection, which doesn't happen very often. But sometimes people just don't need what you have at that time. And that's okay. You're just gonna still be where you are. You're just not going to be on that podcast. And that's okay.

Yes, great advice. I know, I'm sure we've all heard, like, the worst that'll happen is they say, No, I know. I've even said that before about podcasts guessing. And, yes, it's true, but it still stings. If you get that rejection, but it will if you make this like an active strategy in your business, you're gonna get some noes. And it's okay. Like they might have that topic and their lineup in the upcoming months or for whatever reason, you're not the best fit and, and that's okay. And we have to be kind of go into this, knowing that that might be a possibility. Not that it makes it any easier, but it gets easier over. Yeah, it does. Yeah, for sure. So what helped you kind of break through these fears that you had around guessing. So

really three big things, and they're gonna sound silly, so I'll explain them. But the three things were having a plan, repeating the mantra, the bus work is okay. And then reminding myself and this is a silly one is that I'm not going to be eaten by a tiger. So and I know that sounds silly, but having a plan helped me feel confident. Like I knew what I was pitching. I knew when and what I wanted to pitch to certain people. It really did take some planning, and I think I had avoided that. But once I sat down and did it, it felt doable. So gave me direction. It gave me ideas. It gave me a way to approach people that I didn't know and sound professional. So that saying, No, it was going to be a lot harder, because they're like, Wow, she has her stuff together. She knows what she's doing. Of course, we want her. So having that plan just made me feel more confident. And if someone did say no, then I knew that it was because I just wasn't what they needed. Right then it's not because I wasn't good enough because I had this really great plan. So that helped take that sting out of it. Yes, v plus work came from Amy Porterfield, one of her podcasts was girl get it out there. Like B plus work is okay. It doesn't have to be a you're, you're doing a disservice by holding on to what you know, could gatekeeping just go be out in the world and let people see what you have to offer. So when I had that mindset of B plus work, B plus work, I'm here I'm showing up every day. Failure is growing. So just showing up was really helpful. And then of course, I'm not going to be eaten by a tiger because fear is a real thing. Like we go to our roots of fight or flight And if I get told no, this is the end of the world, but I'm not in caveman times where I'm running from a tiger. If Tigers existed then but the worst that happens is a no, no one's going to eat me. I'm not going to die. I'm just still going to be right here. But if someone says, yes, there's so much to celebrate and such an opportunity, so why would I not take that opportunity to get a yes,

yes. Oh, my gosh, great, great tips. And just like perspective, I kind of tell myself the same thing. If I'm feeling really anxious about something or really nervous about something like, I'm not going to die, it's going to be okay. And most likely, if it's a bad experience, or if I get a rejection, like, I'm probably I might not ever cross paths with this person, again, like, I'm going to do what I can, I'm going to put my best foot forward, I'm going to go in with a plan. But as long as you're doing all of that and covering all of your bases, the some of the other things are out of your control. And as far as B plus work goes, Yes, great advice from you. And Amy, I don't know about you, but there's definitely been times where maybe I've done an interview or some other kind of speaking opportunity. And it didn't go like as seamlessly as I would have liked or I didn't say something the way I wanted to and you like, can kind of replay it in your mind. But then you hear it once it's live. And it's like, oh, that doesn't sound so bad. Like I kind of made this big deal about nothing.

Absolutely. I lay in bed at night and like rehash it, like oh my god, I can't get like sweaty all over again. It's not as bad as you thought. Yes, yes,

we tend to like overdramatize things in our mind. Yes. Okay. I love all of that. So I'd love to kind of wrap up with some advice. So now that you have kind of pushed past those fears, you've done this successfully, you've seen the impact that it has on relationships with other people on your show. What advice would you have for somebody who is considering podcast guessing, but maybe still a little bit unsure.

So I think kind of like me have a plan. Because then when you reach out, even if it's messy, you had a plan. And that's really all that matters, because it's gonna be messy. I mean, I think messy action brings clarity. So just do it. Just get out there and do it and have some sort of mantra like, you aren't going to be eaten by a tiger that it seems scary. But it's really, it's not none of us like rejection, none of us. None of us, some people don't love to be on speaking. I mean, that was hard for me too, especially the video part like podcasting was great, because it couldn't be in the dark in my pajamas. So anytime I have to do video, it's like, alright, it's okay, I'm gonna survive. So I think just reminding yourself that you're just showing up and showing up for your community, people want to hear what you have to say. And you just have to remind yourself about that we all have a special spin to share. And you don't want to hold on to that. So be brave and go out and do it. A tiger is not going to eat you. And whatever you show up with is going to be great. And people are going to love it.

Yes. Great, great advice. And you're so right. I mean, we all even if you mentioned this at the very beginning of the interview, like even if you feel like you're talking about something that people already know about, it doesn't matter the way that you present the topic, the way that you share your experience with something, it's going to end up resonating with somebody in a different way, and connecting with somebody or teaching some somebody something new. So yeah, get out there and give it a try. I am sure that this is going to inspire a lot of people who maybe have been hesitant about getting started. So thank you so much for sharing about your experience. Well, thank

you so much for having me, you have been so helpful in me being able to get out there and do it. So thank you. Good.

I'm so glad to hear that. So thank you for sharing. And before we wrap up, tell us where we can find you where we can find your podcasts online.

Sure get so my website has everything annotated ela.com And my podcast link is on there. But I'm on Apple and Spotify and all of the major listening apps and on Instagram at annotated ELA.

Perfect. So if you are a middle school teacher or you know anybody who's a middle school teacher, make sure that you pass this show on to them. And of course we'll include everything in the show notes. Melissa, thank you so much again for being here.

Thank you so much, Sarah.

Thanks again to Melissa for sharing about your experiences guesting if you've been hesitant to try I hope this conversation inspires you to start taking action. Get out there and pitch your first few podcasts. And if you need some support, don't forget to grab my mini course guessing for educators. If you want help with crafting your topics, writing an easy yes pitch, leveraging your interviewer and more. This mini course is open now and you can get through it in just a weekend. Who knows a couple months from now you could be seeing the impact of guesting on your past Podcast and your business. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode to keep this conversation going connect with me on Instagram at podcasting for educators. I'm always looking for an excuse to talk about podcasting. If you're looking for support and launching, managing or growing your podcast, check out my online course the podcasting for educators prep school at podcasting for educators.com/prep school. I'll see you here next time.