Hello, retirement rebels! It's Siobhan Daniels here, your guide to redefining the narrative of ageing and embracing life beyond traditional retirement expectations.

In today's episode, I had the pleasure of conversing with the inspiring Barbara Scully, a strong advocate for challenging ageist stereotypes and reshaping societal perceptions about women in their 60s and beyond. Together, we delved into three key subjects that lay at the heart of our discussion.

Firstly, we explored the societal challenges faced by women in their late 50s and approaching 60, specifically in the workplace. We shed light on the undervaluation and voicelessness often experienced due to assumptions about retirement age and changing pension eligibility. Barbara shared powerful insights into the impact of ageism and sexism, touching upon the fear that women have of not being taken seriously if they choose to embrace their natural appearance, like letting their hair go grey. This led us into an engaging conversation about the importance of individual choice and not succumbing to societal pressures, especially when it comes to appearance and lifestyle decisions.

The second key subject revolved around defying age-related stereotypes and celebrating the beauty of ageing. Barbara and I passionately discussed the significance of embracing one's age and making choices that align with personal preferences, reframing the narrative from one of limitation to one of liberation. We collectively expressed the belief that getting older can bring about freedom, confidence, and the opportunity to pursue long-postponed dreams, all while challenging the societal norms and beliefs that attempt to limit this stage of life.

Finally, we delved into the courageous and rebellious spirit that ignites within us as we embrace life beyond traditional expectations. Barbara bravely shared her own experience of doing a stand-up comedy gig in Dublin, despite feeling terrified. We explored the transformative power of doing things that intimidate and scare us, ultimately finding fulfilment and growth in the process.

So, retirement rebels, join me in celebrating individual choices, defying age-related stereotypes, and embracing the rebellious spirit within us as we journey through the later years of life. The stage is set for a vibrant conversation that challenges norms and celebrates the wisdom and power of older women. Stay tuned for the rest of this episode, where we delve deeper into the rich tapestry of Barbara's insights, experiences, and rebellious spirit.

Remember, the rebel is within you!

Don’t forget to follow / subscribe to the podcast for FREE on your podcast app of choice, or play it directly from the website: www.retirementrebel.co.uk

Key Points:

03:14 "Empowerment through menopause and age positivity book."

08:30 Elderly and female stereotypes impact society negatively.

11:17 Age can bring confidence and bravery for women.

13:55 Older women hold valuable wisdom from experience.

17:31 Choosing to embrace grey hair is empowering.

22:02 Rediscovering freedom and dreams in later life.

24:59 Empower older women through relatable positive messages.

26:37 Social media gives voice to women of all ages.

29:41 Embrace independence, pursue goals, leave memorable legacy.

34:38 As you age, look after your health.

36:06 Learn about yourself, plan for happiness, enjoy life.

40:08 Encouraging women to age better, embracing self-worth.

Guest Info

Barbara Scully, a Dublin-based writer and broadcaster, has become a prominent voice in Ireland's media landscape. Her insightful opinion pieces and features are regularly published in Ireland's national press and magazines, and she's a familiar presence on both television and radio.

Barbara's diverse 'Portfolio Career' evolved accidentally, with past roles including Public Relations and Fundraising Manager for The Alzheimer Society of Ireland, a word-processing teacher, and a decade-long stint in the travel industry during the 80s. She also took a ten-year hiatus from her paid career to focus on family life, a period she recalls as blissful.

Married to photographer Paul Sherwood, Barbara is a mother to three daughters and a grandmother to two. Her household in the Dublin suburb of Dun Laoghaire is bustling with a large bouncy dog, four cats, and even a resident fox in the garden.

Barbara's daily essentials for a balanced life include good coffee (specifically a flat white), regular indulgence in large bubble baths, daily walks or cycle rides with her dog, frequent trips to West Cork, a stack of books for her reading pleasure, and gin (sans ice). Discover more about her and her work at www.barbarascully.com.

Links and Resources:

• Book Wise Up, Wisdom, Power and the Older Woman" by Barbara Scully
• Instagram https://www.instagram.com/barbarascully111/
• X/Twitter https://twitter.com/barbarascully

Quotes:

 "We see older people as a burden on society and as passive kind of contributors to society. But then, obviously, on top of that, general ageism, women then have the sexism, which actually gets worse very often as you get older."

"I'm a huge believer in the power of older women. You will have gained wisdom in each of your decades of your life. Wisdom purely comes from our lived experience."

"Social media gets a bad rap a lot of the times, but social media has helped women to get a voice."

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Copyright 2024 Siobhan Daniels

On today's show, I'm joined by Barbara Scully, an irish broadcaster, journalist and author. She's on a mission, like me, to shake things up for ageing women, particularly in their 60s. We compared how exciting it was to have books out about older women published in our 60s. Also how infuriating it can be in today's society to try to be accepted as an older woman. Plus how it's too late to rediscover your inner child in your 60s. We've both done it. I first met Barbara in a pub when I was on holiday in Ireland in my motorhome a couple of years ago. So I was thrilled to catch up with her again and to have her on my podcast.

Welcome to retirement. Rebel life after 60. I'm your host, Siobhan Daniels. Join me on a journey to meet inspiring rebels who've redefined retirement. Together, we'll explore new passions, triumphs over challenges and discover the vibrant possibilities of life after 60. This is about living boldly, not just ageing. So, are you ready to rebel? Last week I spoke to Ashton Applewhite, where we discussed why she started addressing the issue of ageism over 15 years ago now. Also the impact it's having on women's lives all over the world and what she's doing to help spearhead the emerging movement to raising awareness of ageism.

I hope that you enjoy listening to our conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast with me. I know you've written a book very similar to me. That's how we got chatting, really, and realised that both of us were on the same mission. What's the name of your book?

Ok, so my book, she says, having a book to hand is called Wise Up, Wisdom, Power and the Older woman. And it was published by Zhaja Publishing, actually, in the UK, which is a small startup publishing house. So it is available either on my website, which is barbarascully.com, and I will post it to wherever anybody is, or you can also, obviously, get it on Amazon.

Talk me through why you thought that you needed to champion older women.

Part of it was during lockdown. I was thinking about how menopause has started to become a mainstream conversation, which is good. I mean, you and I will both remember when anything to do with female biology just wasn't spoken about, whether it was periods or childbirth or menopause, it was just not spoken about in the mainstream. Certainly it was spoken about amongst women ourselves, but that was it.

Or it was something to be joked about, wasn't it?

Exactly. And that's great. It's great that we're now talking about it. But the thing that bothered me was that an awful lot of the talk was entirely negative. And also it never spoke about the fact that menopause is a transition. A lot of the conversation would give younger women the impression that you get to a certain age, you go into menopause, and then that's it, it's all over. And along with that, there's this kind of narrative that you hear as well about how women kind of, certainly by the time they get to 60, become invisible. All of which I found to be completely not true.

And that was one of the main motivators for me to write the book, was that I started to realise, as I came out the other side of menopause, as I kind of went into my late 50s. Hang on, I'm actually now in a really great stage of life. But why did nobody tell me that this was going to be such a great stage of life? And that was one of the reasons I wanted to write the book. Along with the fact that I passionately believe, like you, that as women in particular get older, it is the time when we should be stepping into our true power as our true selves. We have got this latent energy and power, along with the wisdom that you gain from having lived life. And instead of older women, instead of matriarchs being celebrated, we're told that it's all over and that we're kind of invisible and that we really.

You're almost ready for the scrap heap, aren't you?

Absolutely. And that also, we should be really worried about ageing and our face and our lines and our wrinkles and fighting ageing. And that's one of the greatest frauds, I think, that has ever been perpetrated against women, is this kind of, let's distract them from their power by telling them they should be worried about all kinds of nonsense. So that was really, in a nutshell why I wrote the book.

What do you think the message is given from when we're very young, about the whole process of ageing? What do you think that's contributing to this, I think is a crisis, really, the way that we're all depicting ageing?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I kind of hope that it's beginning to change, but I think there's two things. I think, number one, we live in a society that is ageist, that is ageist to its core, and a lot of the ageism isn't. It's kind of almost subconscious and subliminal so that we don't even realise we're being ageist like many of us. I mean, I've only just realised so many things that I might have said in the past myself are actually inherently ageist. For example, looking at somebody and going, oh, God, doesn't she look great for her age?

That's ageist for her age. Yeah, but I think a lot of us don't realise that. And like you say, things just come off the end of our tongue. When I was sitting in news meetings, when I was a journalist for the BBC, and I'd listen to younger ones discussing things about campaigns for older people, and they'd talk all the time, it was negative things about slowing down and being too old for this, or maybe not understanding that. And I used to get so infuriated, but they didn't mean it in a malicious way. They genuinely thought that that was the process of ageing. That's what we were all heading for and that's what we need to change, isn't it?

And one of the most damaging things that we all kind of hear about forever and kind of accept as being the truth is, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. In other words, once you get to a certain age, it's kind of too late. It's too late to reinvent yourself. It's too late to take control of your health. It's too late to do a million things. All of which is not true. It's never, ever too late. Unless you're dead.

Then it is too late.

Oh, yeah, well, that's what I say. Whether we like it or not. We're all ageing, some longer than others, some faster than others, but we're all heading in that direction. And, I mean, the thing is, let's make it the best way that we can do it. Let's be positive about doing it. What challenges do you think that women in Ireland face when it comes to know, historically and now?

Well, it's funny because, and I'm not an expert on history, but back, like lots of hundreds of years ago, Ireland was quite a matriarchal society. Before we were colonised by Britain, we had a system of laws called the Brehen laws, which are actually quite equitable and equal. But obviously, in our later history, Ireland has been quite an uncomfortable place for women for many years now. In the last 20 years, Ireland has changed. I mean, the country is now completely different from the country that I grew up in. And part of that was because once we achieved our independence from Britain, we handed a lot of the power which we took back from Britain, we handed it straight to the Catholic Church, which meant that we didn't have divorce until reasonably recently. We didn't have abortion until reasonably recently. We now have marriage equality reasonably recently.

So that Ireland is now a far more comfortable place than it was for women. And that has to be acknowledged and appreciated. But I don't think. I think the problems that women face here are the same problems that now women face all over the developed world. And it goes back to that thing of the fact that we live in a society that is ageist. We live in a society that doesn't value older people, men and women doesn't value older people for their inherent wisdom, for their experience, for their ability to see a bigger picture, because they have this longevity of experience. So we don't value that. We see older people in a general way.

We see older people as a burden on society and as passive kind of contributors to society. But then, obviously, on top of that, general ageism, women then have the sexism, which actually gets worse very often as you get older. So from the time we're young girls, from the time we're kind of, I don't know, 8910 girls are taught, and again, this isn't necessarily evil, it's just the way it is, but it's got to change. We are taught that how we look is terribly important in a way that boys aren't. So girls are taught from very young. No matter what you achieve, if you look hot or cute or whatever it is that society thinks you should look at that particular stage, if you look like that, well, then your achievement is worth a whole lot more. That message stays with women forever. I mean, there was a study done that showed that young girls, I think as young as seven or eight, when they're asked what do they like about themselves? Are already being able to see themselves as a combination of all their bits.

So in other words, they say, well, I like my eyes, but I don't like my legs, or I don't like my hair, but I like my mouth. Boys don't do that at all. They see themselves as a whole. They don't judge themselves as the sum of their parts. So that you have that which stays with us forever. But then on top of that, then you get the added dollop of sexism, so that as women get older, they are seen to have failed because their looks change, which is the natural process of getting older. Men are seen to become silver foxes. They gain gravitas as they become older, they become elder statesmen.

There is no equivalent positive terms for an older woman. She's let herself go, she's kind of a bit of an old witch. We don't see older women in a positive light.

Yeah. What you're saying there, I totally agree, because when I embarked on this pro age campaigning that I'm doing, that I've been doing for over five years now, it was because I felt undervalued, I felt lost in society, I didn't know where I was going, I didn't feel like I was ready for the scrap heat, but I didn't really know what to do. So I kind of got rid of all my shackles, got rid of my home possessions, bought my motorhome, hit the road and thought, I am going to forge out my best way of ageing. And it's been a roller coaster ride, but I'm the happiest I've ever been. And I think a lot of women, because of what you were saying when they're children and it's ingrained in us, in judging ourselves, self limit, don't they? They, oh, well, I'm not good enough to do that. I can't do that. And I just didn't think I'm not good enough. I just thought, I've got to do it.

What would you say to women who self limit themselves?

Yeah. And again, I fully understand why women self limit themselves, because I think one of the things that you lose as you get older, unless you're consciously kind of going to mind it, is your confidence, because our confidence is undermined because of how we look. So therefore, I think it's very easy to self limit as a woman. But one of the things, I mean, I'm a huge fan of the american feminist Gloria Steinem, and one of her quotes, which I quote in the book, is about how women become more radical with age. And I think know, once you realise that there are certain freedoms that come with getting older that help you to be braver. So, in other words, I think what you did was incredibly brave. And I know from talking to you and from following you on social media that at times you've scared the living daylights out of yourself by what you've done. You jumped in and you were like, I don't know how to do this, and it's scary.

And I have jumped in, not in maybe quite as dramatic way as you've done, but I am now at the stage of my life of when an opportunity comes along, I am much more likely to say yes to it because I'm conscious of the doomsday clock. I'm conscious of the fact that this opportunity might come around again. And maybe I should say yes to it, because as you get older, you will have failed a number of times in your life. Once you get to 60 and you look back, you'll see all the times that things didn't work out or you failed. And as you get older, what you realise is that nobody died.

You're grand.

Okay, so you failed, but you learned and you picked yourself up and you go on. So that makes you more foolhardy and that you'll say, yeah, sure, I'll give it a shot. And what's the worst that can happen? It doesn't work out.

That's exactly what I did. I had not got a clue. I remember when I turned the key in the motorhome in 2019 and headed off, I remember crying with excitement and with fear, with everything, thinking, do you know what? I haven't got a clue. But I know this is going to work out. And I kind of almost felt I had to face my fear to be an example to other women, to show that here I am, broken, fearful, heading off, watch my journey, because hopefully it's going to come out the other side. And it has done. And I agree with you. The older I've got, I'm 65 next.

And the older I've got, the more I've found my voice, my inner warrior and my confidence. And that's what I want this podcast, to encourage other women to hear from women like you, that we can do it, we can find our strength, we can challenge ageism and we can change things.

Absolutely. I mean, I'm a huge believer in that because I'm a huge believer in the power of older women. Because regardless of what your life experience has been, whether you've been in the corporate world and you crashed through a loaded glass ceilings and you were something very well paid and high up somewhere, or whether you were at home raising your children, or whether you were working in the local supermarket, no matter what you were doing, you will have gained wisdom in each of your decades of your life. You can't learn wisdom. You don't go to college and get a degree in wisdom. Wisdom purely comes from our lived experience. So there is a huge resource in older women who have this huge pot, if you like, of wisdom that comes from their life experience. And the other thing that's interesting about women is because of our biology, our lives tend to meander in a more interesting way than men's do because we take time out, perhaps, to have children, or we step aside or we step sideways in order to prioritise something different.

That gives us a really important view of the world that a lot of men don't have. And it's one of the things. I did a reel on Instagram earlier this week about what you've just said about women learning to find older women, learning to find your voice and learning to share your experience. Because one of the things, again, that society tells us is that your experience, unless it was something really spectacular, is not actually that important. But it is important.

This is a problem, I think, in the workplace for women that are in their late 50s, approaching 60, that they are not valued, their experience is almost demeaned, that they can become voiceless in the workplace because everybody's assuming that they're going to leave now. Years ago, women would put up with that for a couple of years, then retire at 60, take the pension and head off, and then just live quite a quiet life. Now they're not going to get the pensions in Britain anyhow till about 70. So it's important that people realise that's 15 years of being disrespected, not being listened, your wisdom, your experience, not being able to be part of the workplace. And it needs to change. And I think it's important for intergenerational discussion with the younger women in the office to say, this is what the situation is. What are you going to do to change it for when women reach 60 but still need to and want to carry on working because you'll be the older woman of the future?

Absolutely. We mentioned atheista at the very beginning and I was down in West Cork. Well, I'm down in West Cork. Well, not as much as I'd like to be, but a reasonable amount of time.

Beautiful down there, isn't it?

Beautiful? It's heaven. But I met a woman who I knew not well, who's very high up in a big international corporate place here in Dublin. Met her down in West Cork where she was on holidays. And I had, just after Covid let my hair go back to go back to Grey. And we were chatting and she said to, you know, that's really brave what you did. Let your hair go grey. Now. It's not really brave, it's kind of lazy, because I don't have to do anything with it now.

I just leave it. Who is brave to be spending a fortune getting it dyed all the time? But anyway, that's what I said to her. I said, like, it's not brave anybody could do it. She just stopped doing, and that's what happens. And she said, oh, I couldn't do that. I'd love to, but I couldn't do that. And I said, why couldn't you do it? She said, I wouldn't be taken seriously in work if my hair was suddenly grey. And I thought, wow, this is a very smart, accomplished woman.

But she was afraid to let her hair go grey because she said, I won't be taken seriously. Now, that is entirely ageist and sexist. One of the things that happened during COVID was that more and more women did what I did. So that before COVID certainly here, any grey haired woman you saw was probably in her 80s. But at least now we're seeing women in their fifty s and sixty s and seventy s rocking grey hair. And it's those kind of things that are really important. And I'm not saying that every older woman has to let their hair go grey. I'm saying you have a choice, you have an absolute choice to do whatever it is that suits you to do.

And that's really important.

I agree with that because, as you can see, I dye my hair. I did try in lockdown. I looked like a skunk. I had this white line right in the middle, but I just didn't like it. I didn't feel good, and I feel good with my hair. But people do challenge me. They say, well, if you're a pro age campaigner, where's your grey hair? And I say, my whole point about being in my being pro age is that you age the way you want to. Yes, whatever makes you feel good.

If you want to do Botox, I'm not saying don't do that. I'm just saying try and embrace the best way of ageing. And for me, this is the best way. And I do think eventually I will go Grey, but I'm not ready to go grey yet just because of the way I feel when I am Grey.

And that's entirely the point. And it's the same thing about feminism. Like, you can be a stay at home mom looking after your kids while your husband earns the money. That does not make you not a feminist. The whole thing about equality is choice is to do it your way. And it is the same with ageing. I mean, the only thing that I would always say is that. And as you say, if you want to do Botox, absolutely knock yourself out if you want to, whatever you want to do.

But what I do really kick against is the message that you can antiage you should be antiaging. That's a physical impossibility. You cannot anti age. You will still be 60, whatever you are, regardless of what you do. And that's the thing, from the day.

We'Re born, we're ageing, aren't we? So we've got to just embrace it.

And the only time you stop is when you're dead. Don't be wishing for antiaging, embrace whatever age you are. And it's the same thing, that thing that we were taught that, oh, you'd never ask a woman her age like you. I tell people I'm 62, and I tell people that every time I meet them. Why should we be ashamed of what age we are? As you will know, and I know when you get to this age, you will have lost friends along the way. It is a privilege to get to your 60s, especially since it is such a delicious decade.

That is why I want to do this podcast. Why I am doing this podcast is because I want people to see the figure 60 and 61, 62 in 70 and 80, because I'm constantly being lumped with 55 plus. And I think since I hit 60, I feel like a different woman almost. I think when I've retired, I've refired. And I know talking to women like you and so many other women, there are loads of us out there and we need to get the message out there. We're not 55 plus, we're not 50 plus, we're not middle aged, we're in our, we want to celebrate that. What would you say to people who say to you, oh, 60, you're slowing down?

No. Like you, I have found that because of the freedoms that come with getting older, and particularly once you get to 60, your children are adults now. They mightn't have fledged as mine, two of mine haven't. But they don't need me looking at them 24/7 they don't need me to make their dinner or do their washing. They can look after themselves. So there's that freedom, there's the freedom from your biology from the time we're twelve around about our biology is so much a part of the practical and the emotional part of our lives that has receded. You have the fear of dropping the fear of failure, which I talked about earlier, but you also care less about what people think. So I'm not looking for anybody's approval as to how I look, as to how I live my life, as to anything like that, as long as I'm happy with it, then that's good.

So all of those freedoms wrap up to give you this incredible decade. And I've said, and I'm interested to hear if you'd agree with this. I've said a number of times recently that I feel now, as you said, I feel like a different woman, but I feel much closer to the girl I was when I was in my teens, full of dreams and ambitions and things I can do. And that feeling that the world is your oyster, you can choose to do whatever you want to do, and then life descends, and jobs and mortgages and families and partnerships and all of that kind of stuff. So you put off the things that you want to do because you have other things that you have to do. So now you get to 60, and if you're lucky enough to still to have a reasonable degree of health, then the world is your oyster again. Except now you might have a few more bob in your pocket and you have a little bit of wisdom, and you're not afraid to do things for yourself, and it's marvellous. So one of the things that I'm passionate about getting out there is that message to younger women as well.

This is a decade to look forward to, not to dread. No matter how young you are, whether you're in your start thinking about all the stuff that you do still want to do, because there will come a time, unless you're unlucky, there will come a time when you can do that. So don't let it all bypass you and don't buy society's notion that you're past it and it's all downhill and you're invisible. None of that is true. You will have the opportunities to do all of the things that you want to do.

I totally, totally agree with you. We're both singing brilliant. Definitely from the same hymn. She and one thing I also say to people is revisit things that you enjoyed doing when you were a child. You know, you say you feel like we've got our inner child again. One thing I used to do when I was younger was lie down for ages watching the clouds and making faces from the clouds, and I'd get this inner sense of peace and joy. And I remember a couple of years ago, when I was about 61, I suddenly thought, I want to do that again. And I do it all the time now.

I don't care who's looking. And I've posted on one of my feeds, I think it's on my Twitter feed, or what's it called? X now feed. A picture of me lying in the snow, saying I was walking along I just felt like lying down in the snow, and I just did it. Because often life gets in the way and stopped us doing things that we wanted to do or we could do, and like you say, we put it on the back burner. But getting to 60 and being in this decade has given me just the courage to do things, because I don't care. I'm out there swimming in the sea. But my thousands of followers on social media give me the confidence to keep doing it, because the messages I get let me know that they love what I'm doing. And it's igniting in them.

It's inspiring them. I mean, what do you do to inspire women in their sixty s to say, go out there and shout that you're 60 and you're in your 60s?

Well, I think one of the best things that we probably both do, and again, I would be fairly active on Instagram, is, I think what I hope is that people, that older women can relate, number one, to our stories and to what we're sharing and to what we're saying. But I think the best thing we can do is make these older women feel number one, seen and number two, heard and number three, appreciated, because our message is so refreshing when it is painted against this backdrop of kind of negative ageing and sexist comments about older women and all of that kind of stuff. There is a huge cohort of older women out there who are looking for the positive messages. And so therefore, I think what you have done with your book and with your social media is helping women to see what God like. With all due respect, we're not extraordinary women. We are ordinary women.

But I think that's why we're resonating. My book, retirement Rebel, is in its third print run. And that is because women are just giving it to their friends to read. And it can be read in a couple of days. Like your book. It gives them the insight into what we have been through and what we can be like as we get older. But one thing I feel very strongly is still, we've talked about changing the narratives around ageing, changing the images that are out there. Do you think the images depicting women, particularly in their 60s, are representative of how we're ageing and how we look, or do you think it's changing?

I think it's slowly changing. Social media gets a bad rap a lot of the times, but social media has helped women to get a voice. It has helped women to forge all kinds of campaigns. I mean, as you say, Twitter was a place where the too movement started and it is a place where women can get a voice. One of the things that interests me, because I work in media here in Dublin as well, I do quite a bit of broadcasting and writing. But one of the things that I think is not appreciated, and you have tapped into it, and so have I, is there is a huge cohort of older women in their sixty s, in their seventy s and in their 80s, who are online and who have accounts on Instagram in particular, I think, where they don't post themselves, but they consume social media and they're a really important audience. And like you, they are my tribe and they are the women who give me the feedback and let me know that what I'm doing is resonating with them and that they want to hear more and they want to know more. So that is what encourages me.

The times I've heard where people say, oh, no, older people don't use social media as much, or they don't understand social media. I'm very clunky. I know I'm clunky. I make my daughter laugh sometimes with how I go about doing my posts, and sometimes she'll tell me, mum, you need to tidy this, you need to tidy that. And I say, I'm not going to do that because I'm aiming at the women who are just ordinary women like me, finding their path through life so that they can relate to what I'm doing and they can laugh too. If I've posted something and it's not right, or it looks funny, or I'm sort of jumping into the sea in the middle of the Orkneys and they're thinking, goodness gracious me, what on earth is she doing? Or I'm sitting in a pod full of ice cold water at minus four degrees. But it's all to encourage women to wage positively, especially in their 60s. Absolutely.

And there's no one way to do it. I mean, one of the things I write about in wise up is about whatever your dreams are, whatever are the things that you want to do. It may be swimming in the cold sea, in the ortonies. It may be living in a campervan and travelling all around the place, or it might be just getting out into your garden and making a fabulous wild garden, or it might be learning how to bake or paint, or it might be travelling the world. Whatever it is, you do it your way, but don't let the fact that you are in your whatever stop you. It shouldn't stop you. You still have so much to offer and so much to give. And that's really important.

And I think one of the things, I mean, you said about how women are portrayed, older women are portrayed. There is no older woman portrayal. Older women can look as different as you and I do or as anybody else does. There is no one body shape that should be acceptable and another one that isn't. It's the same with ageing. There is no. You don't have to let your hair go grey, you don't have to anything. You do it whatever way you want.

But the beauty is, recognise the fact that you don't need anybody's approval. You've been around the block a few times, you've run a couple of races, you are entitled to do things your way. And this particularly for women, and particularly, I think, if you've had children, this is your time now. You've probably spent decades putting your family first, putting your kids first, putting your partner first. If my husband does watch this, I'm not suggesting that you go off and do whatever the hell you want to do with no cost to anybody else, but this is my time. This is where I think we forge our legacies. Like, when I'm gone, I want people to go, God, she was a mad el bat, wasn't she? The stuff that she did great. That's how I want to be remembered.

I want that on my gravestone.

She was a mad old bat.

I quite like that. So do you think things are changing? When you were younger, did you envisage living the life that you're living now when you were in your 60s?

No. Sure. I thought you'd be dead like I thought your ancient. I mean, I remember being in school and we were working out what age we'd be at the turn of the millennium and we would have been nearly 40. And I remember thinking, oh, my God, that's so old. Can you imagine? But again, when I look back, life was much more restrictive for older women, in particular back in the day. So, no, I don't think I ever even considered what it would be like at 60. But I do spend a lot of time.

I was very close to my mother and we had a great relationship. She died two years ago, but I know I have been. So I was cleaning out her house and all that in the last year and looking at photographs of her, and I'm fascinated by looking at photographs of her when she was my age. And with all due respects, Matt, and I don't mean this in any way derogatory, because you were great. She looked way older. And it's not just because of anything, but just because. Again, she fed into that narrative that an older woman has to dress a particular way and wear hair a particular way and all the rest of it. Whereas I do think nowadays you can do whatever the hell you want.

You can dress whatever the hell way you want. There isn't a uniform that you have to adhere to once you're any particular age.

When you say dress the way you want, whenever I'm seeing on social media, somebody will make some comment, or there's an article in a magazine or newspaper saying, should women in their 60s wear mini skirts or a bikini? It's like somebody's lit the touch paper. I am so angry. I say, who made them the fashion police? There are no fashion police. If you feel good and it doesn't really matter whether you look good, but if you feel good and it makes you feel good, then blooming, do it.

Exactly.

Because you feel alive, you feel like you're living. You're not just existing, you're actually living. Another thing that's important you say that about so old. Feeling old. One of my bugbears as well is people go, oh, I'm young at heart. I'm this. And I keep saying, no, you don't have to bung young in there all the time to equate feeling good. I'm old at heart.

And old can be good. Old isn't a negative. And one of my daughters was talking to a friend the other day and they said, oh, I'm getting old. I can't do that because I'm getting old. And I piped up, much to their amusement, saying, it's got nothing to do with your age, it's whether you can do it or you can't do it. And I do think we need to change people's thought process and say, I'm old at heart.

Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. And it's interesting you should say that because when I was in my mid fifty s, I was diagnosed with type two diabetes, which was, is the diabetes you give yourself from being a lazy cow and liking too much time on the sofa and enjoying my own baking and all of that. I ticked all the boxes, right? So, big surprise, I get diagnosed with diabetes. But one of the things. So I had to lose weight, I had to become more active. I had to cut sugar, I had to totally change my lifestyle. And I was somebody who was quite overweight but quite happy.

I was one of these, like, yeah, I'm happy with me, so what? But I did find there were certain things that I couldn't do anymore. And I thought, oh, I'm just getting old. My knees don't work as well as they used to.

Self limiting.

Self limiting. And I would have continued to believe that, except that I had to lose weight and I had to get fitter. Now, I'm not a marathon runner by any manner of means. I have a kind of functional level of fitness now, but I can now do things that I could not have imagined and I wouldn't have been able to do ten years ago. I cycle now. I don't cycle too far, but I get up on my bike and I cycle and I walk every day and I can now do things that I couldn't do ten years ago. So that's a really important message as well. It is never too late to retrieve your health from a fitness point of view.

And it is really important as you get older that you do look after your health. You'll get away with stuff. I mean, my doctor, the day he diagnosed me, he said, yeah, well, Barbara, you got away with it until you stop getting away with it, and you don't get away with a bad lifestyle. Know, do you do have to be more conscious of your health as you get older? Because obviously it's the same as a car. Like, you wouldn't expect to drive a car for decades without ever having the oil and water checked and sending it for a service. So you have to mind your body. And that's something that I am conscious of now, is moving and staying as fit as I can do because I have too many really good, interesting, enjoyable things that I want to be able to do. So I don't want to do that self limiting stuff.

If I can give it a shot, I'll give it a shot.

So what would you say to anybody that's approaching 60 about the benefits, the pluses and the minuses, maybe of being in your 60s?

Well, I think for a woman, it's all the freedoms. To me, it's about all of the freedoms that you have all of a sudden. And I'd say that was a surprise to me. I suddenly thought, wow, I have all this freedom now. I can kind of suit myself and I can do the things that I want to do. So if you're approaching your would say to you is spend some time sooner rather than later, thinking of the things that you want to do. And I say they don't have to be huge, big, huge things. They can be whatever it is, but find out.

And you do generally tend to know this because one of the things I think about getting older is that you do learn more about yourself. So I think that you do know what it is that makes you happy. Working on that basis of what makes you happy, start planning for what it is you want to do. I have a notebook that I have had for the last ten years, which I keep in the house and I have forever. If something came up online or in a paper, in a book, a place maybe, or a thing that I wanted to do or visit or that, and I keep a note of it in there so that I can go back to it every so often and go, oh, yeah, I always said I wanted to go there. Let's work on going there now. Don't arrive into your 60s kind of going, oh, God, here I am in my have an amazing decade, hopefully two decades. I'm hoping I will still be able to do what I'm doing when I get into my, as you said, ireland is not, I don't think our pension age, I think is still 66 here.

But to me, I want to keep working because that's what keeps you energised. So find things that you want to do and mind your health, certainly.

Well, this podcast is called retirement rebel Life after 60. So I'm asking all my guests one last question. And it's basically, when was the last time that you felt like a rebel?

I've kind of got the personality that is, I've always been a disruptor, which comes from the fact that I think that I grew up in a very male household. So I developed a loud voice early on. I'm also six foot tall, which makes me. I take up a lot of space. I'm kind of in everybody's face.

I.

But I suppose the last time I felt like a rebel, I got hoodwinked or mugged by two friends of mine into doing a comedy gig in Dublin as part of a comedy show back in June, which literally on the day, like, I said yes to it. And then I was like, I didn't think about it because it just terrified me. And then on the day, I remember I woke up that morning going, what have I done? Why have I agreed to do this? I was petrified. But anyway, I went in and like I did, I prepared it, but I went in and I did the thing and it went down a bomb. Like a good. A good bomb. It went down very well. I couldn't believe it.

And I'm a big believer in the positives from doing things that scare you. So if something is a bit scary, but you're kind of interested in it. Give it a shot. And I suppose that was, yeah, I felt a bit of a rebel because I didn't tell any of my friends I was doing this because I thought I possibly am going to crash and burn. And I don't need all my friends there to remind me of this disaster for the next ten years. But my daughters came and they brought friends. So when I came off stage, it was my daughters and their friends who are all in their 20s who are like, that was brilliant. We loved it.

And I thought, yes, I'm a 61 year old woman, as I was then, and I've made all these young ones laugh. And so that was great. That was probably the last time I really felt like a kind of a rebel.

Well, thanks very much for talking with me, Barbara. I've really enjoyed it. So if anybody wants to get your book, wise up or wants to contact you, how do they do that?

Okay, first of all, the book is available on my website, which is barbarascully, that's scully.com. And they can order the book there and I will put it out in the post to them. The book is also available on Amazon. If they want to follow me and get in touch with me, the best way to do it is via Instagram, where I am Barbara Scully, one one on Instagram. And yeah, come join my tribe as well. There's a whole load of great women and I talk a lot about animals as well and about stupid stuff as well as about the kind of the positive ageing stuff as well. So if that go to float your boat. Yeah, I'd love to have you on board.

You need the stupid as well, don't you? But we've got our tribes out there.

Oh, absolutely.

Thank you.

Thanks, Siobhan. Thanks a million.

I love chatting to Barbara today because we both agree on so much, particularly about how we want to encourage women to age better nowadays. We want to inspire them and to get them to believe in their self worth. One thing that I'm going to take away, though, from our chat is I don't like the messages that women are taught about self image because it can be so damaging. We need to reinstill in girls that their value doesn't depend on how they look and that they are good enough. We need to get the cosmetic industries to stop the antiaging messages and put more pro ageing messages out there because life is for living. Thank you so much for joining me on today's retirement. Rebel life after 60. I'm truly grateful for your time and your willingness to embark on this journey with me.

If today's conversation sparks something within you, or if you've your own rebel story to share, I'd love to hear from you. Please reach out through our social media channels or email and let's keep the conversation going. Email us on podcast at retirementrebel. Co. UK. And remember, if you found value in our time together today, consider sharing this episode with a friend who might also enjoy and benefit from our retirement rebel community. Spreading the word helps us grow and continue to challenge the narrative around life after 60. All of our details can be found on retirementRebel.

Co. Uk retirement Rebel Life after 60 is written and hosted by me, Siobhan Daniels, and produced by the incredibly talented Matt Cheney. Join me again next week for another episode. Until then, keep embracing your inner rebel and living life to the fullest. Bye for now.