For another great episode with some other successful ultramarathoners check out this one with Arlen Glick: https://youtu.be/RKLuV08H3S4

And Connie Gardner: https://youtu.be/VCwSkMJgpZE

Esteemed ultramarathoner Alec Cline joins us to elucidate the nuances of his remarkable career in the realm of ultramarathoning. From his unexpected entry into the sport, having not participated in high school running, to achieving notable victories at the Mohican and Burning River ultramarathons, Alec's journey is one of perseverance and passion. In our conversation, we delve into the intricacies of his training, the significance of mental fortitude in overcoming challenges, and the strategies he employs to maintain peak performance. Furthermore, Alec shares insights on the importance of maintaining a positive mindset and the joy that running brings him. Join us as we explore the depths of Alec's experiences and the lessons he has garnered along his extraordinary path in the world of ultrarunning.

The conversation unfolds as we delve into the remarkable journey of Alec Cline, an esteemed ultramarathoner whose path to success is both inspiring and instructive. Notably, Alec's rise in the ultramarathon scene is characterized by a series of formidable races, culminating in his recent triumphs at the Mohican and Burning River events. Throughout the discussion, Alec recounts his initial forays into running, revealing a surprising lack of formal training in high school, which adds a layer of intrigue to his subsequent accomplishments. As we navigate through his experiences, Alec emphasizes the importance of mental fortitude and the unique camaraderie fostered within the ultramarathon community. The dialogue seamlessly transitions into the technicalities of long-distance racing, with Alec sharing insights on pacing strategies, the significance of nutrition, and the psychological challenges faced during prolonged endurance events. This episode serves not only as a testament to Alec's dedication and resilience but also as a valuable resource for aspiring ultramarathoners seeking to understand the nuances of the sport and the mindset required to excel. It is a compelling exploration of the intersection between physical endurance and mental strength, ultimately underscoring the profound relationship between passion and performance.

Takeaways:

• Alec Cline's remarkable journey from a novice to an esteemed ultramarathoner exemplifies the transformative power of perseverance and dedication.
• Throughout the podcast, Alec articulately shares the importance of mental fortitude in ultramarathon running, emphasizing that endurance is as much about the mind as it is about physical capability.
• The discussion highlights the significance of pacing strategies, revealing how Alec uses virtual pacing and luxury points such as music and caffeine to enhance his performance during races.
• Alec's experiences during the Burning River and Mohican races demonstrate the challenges of ultramarathoning, particularly in dealing with extreme heat and fatigue while competing against formidable opponents.
• The hosts delve into Alec's philosophy on running, underscoring the notion that the joy of running should prevail over the pressures of competition and performance metrics.
• Listeners are encouraged to adopt a mindset of enjoyment and curiosity in their running endeavors, as Alec suggests that eliminating the word 'need' from their vocabulary can lead to a more fulfilling experience.

Foreign something.

I get eggs from work, so.

Hey, you know, it's just a buddy that has a bunch of chickens.

Oh, yeah.

So it's a co worker.

Yeah, it's a co worker.

It's nothing to do with actual eggs, with actual work.

Right.

All right, well, here we are.

We are live, so.

Yo, yo, everybody.

This is another episode of the Mind Body marathon.

On today's episode, we got a regular Zachary Zacharoni.

And then we got our guest in.

In studio here, Alec Klein.

He's from.

Where are you from, by the way?

Canton, Ohio.

Yeah, so we don't.

This is actually really awesome.

So Alec has had a very storied last couple years in terms of, I would say a meteoric rise.

And in ultramarathoning, I would say so too.

And so we're here to kind of just kind of plow through his career and kind of his ins and outs and talk a little bit about running.

But.

Yeah.

So where'd you go to high school, man?

I went to New Philly High School, New Philadelphia.

Oh, okay.

Did you run in high school?

No, I did not.

Oh, that's a.

That's like a bit of a shocker.

This is great.

Like, I love this.

Yeah, I love this.

So I grew up in Michigan.

I. I actually came down to Ohio for just high school.

Okay.

Don't tell anyone.

What part of Michigan?

Taylor.

Michigan.

That's.

Were the universities there?

No, I don't really know.

It was 20.

Detroit.

So it's south of Detroit?

Yeah, about 20 minutes south.

Okay.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

So we just.

You were just part of the cheeky monkey.

Yeah.

This past weekend and you guys were.

So this is kind of the conversation we wanted to flesh out earlier.

So you guys were part of a team, eight man team, and you guys were trying to average sub six.

Yeah, yeah.

And so you were hammering pretty much for 24 hours.

You were running in your 5 40s, basically.

Yeah, well, I started dying at the end.

At what point did you start dying?

It had to have been in like the 1 or 3 o'.

Clock.

So we traded off 1 mile at a time, which was just absolutely gruesome.

And basically every 36 minutes you're running again.

And I think by.

I did 29 total miles and by miles, 16 or 17.

I'm like barely holding sub six.

And then each one just incrementally got slow.

There was a point where I was on my one to three o' clock leg and you had.

And I was coming around to the start finish area and you were about to start and you take off and you were just.

It looked like you were hobbling.

And it was like the first time where I was like, I might be able to catch you.

So to put it and put in perspective, my very last mile was an 853 and it felt like a 5 4.

Holy cow.

Well, I bring this up because we were just about to say like, you know, so Jim Chaney was inspired to start this race and we kind of talked a little bit about this on the last episode, on the Cheeky Monkey episode, where he wanted to be able to do like a track relay where, you know, you had a 10 man, 10 man team and then every mile or every person ran one mile and then he traded off in the 10 man segment.

And it was kind of a standardized thing to do in the 70s at the time.

And they were averaging like wicked fast.

And then Jim's team was eighth and they averaged 512, which meant that there was 80 people that were at that event that for 24 hours could average faster than 512.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

And you want to know, like, what I want to know is what are their first six hours like?

Like they have to be going faster because you'd imagine later in the race they're going even slower.

So they're, you know, the winning team's probably doing 420s, 430s.

Yeah.

For a long time.

Could have been.

Yeah.

And you're running every 40ish minutes.

Yeah, 30.

40 minutes.

Yeah.

That's insane.

I mean, just like the lack of technology, like the lack of what we have now.

Yeah.

And they're just shoot technology fueling all that stuff.

Yeah, yeah, the fueling, exactly.

That's all dog right there.

Yeah.

So.

So in this year, you won both Mohican and Burning River.

Yeah, I did.

And that's awesome, man.

I appreciate that.

The Burning river one was pretty awesome because my wife ran the, the marathon there and we.

I've never really been on a Mohican to those events, but Burning river, we were pretty hands on this year.

And that was so fun to kind of like go to all the aid stations and hear of everybody being like, oh, Alex, catching this dude.

He's catching this dude.

He's gonna get him.

This looks terrible.

So walk us through a little bit of that experience.

Miserable.

That was miserable.

From what's, from what time?

Like from the beginning, from mile three.

It Was so hot.

I mean, the heat just really, really beat me up.

So the race starts at 4, and I like to get there an hour early, get there at 3 o', clock, and I run about a mile warmup.

And in that warmup, I felt like I was jogging in the sauna.

I mean, it was so humid, Very, very hot.

And I say three, but it was really.

At mile eight, I. I actually shot a text instead of a call while I'm running to my crew, which was my wife, Sam, and my other crew, Brian Scipione.

And I said, hey, I'm going to need you to meet me at Botsam instead of Oak Hill.

And Oak Hill or Botsam, I think it was at 13.

Yeah.

And they were just about to fall asleep because they were going to get some shut eye before I got to oak Hill at 26 or 24.

And he woke Sam up because he was just falling asleep.

And they get there and I tell him, I was like, I'm not doing well.

And Sam's like, why?

Because she knows I'm usually pretty psyched through the first 50 miles and pumped up, having a lot of fun.

And I just said, it's just so hot.

And it was raining already and I was still really, really hot.

And I knew I was going through it and I was already mentally destroyed a little bit because first place passed me at mile five going down.

Schumacher, he was flying.

And I. I learned that he was the previous year's Georgia Death Race winner, and that's why I recognized the name.

And he just cruised past, came from Arkansas, and I think he was giving me a little bit of.

A little bit of on his side, basically.

He said.

I said, do you have hills and stuff like this or humidity out in Arkansas?

He's like, oh, yeah, you know, like really pumping himself up, which I'm sure he does.

And it got in my head, you know.

Yeah, dude, I mean, he.

There is no way I'm catching this guy.

What's amazing is that every single stop from Oak Hill on, everybody was like.

The dude in first keeps talking about how he didn't think it would be this hot and hilly here in Ohio.

Really?

Oh, I never, like.

Which was crazy because so.

Exactly.

He was kind of, you know, know, peacocking a little bit to you.

But in the end, he was like, what is this?

This is not what I expected.

Because imagine he's probably.

He's coming up and he's like, dude, it's a freaking Ohio.

It's like up north, like, it's not going to be like that.

And, you know, it gets just as hot and crazy up here.

Yeah.

And you look at the race, it's only, like, 9,000ft of elevation.

I mean.

And I say only.

It's just not a lot for 100 over 100.

Yes.

But something about that heat, and you think you can just rip it, and you can.

I mean, he.

He went very fast.

I. I heard he had got to Pine Hollow, which is at 34 miles.

He got there at a 7:34 pace.

Yeah.

And I was averaging just below nine.

And so he had already had a huge lead on me.

Yeah.

Not until actually, when I got the Pine Hollow, I had heard he had.

He had sat there for 20 minutes.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm like.

And.

And really, that's.

Did that give you confidence?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it also made me.

Because here's the problem.

Because I'm like, okay, well, who am I any better that I'm gonna start running?

Exactly.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

So that was about the moment where I was like, really?

Like, oh, this.

This could go down the other way.

Like, this guy could really just be bagging it.

And 50 was another big one that he was really struggling at the halfway.

Like, people were just really concerned for him and just in terms of releasing him back out.

And.

Yeah, when I got the Kendall Lake at first 40, they had said he sat there for another 20 minutes or so, and they had told me he didn't leave that long ago and that he might drop.

And I'm like, what?

What do you mean?

I mean, he's still doing really well.

And they said he was like.

I think they said he was throwing up, if I remember correctly.

I just know he had a lot of stomach issues.

And I was waiting for that turnaround because I was like, that's my indicator.

How far ahead is he?

Yeah.

You know, And I got to mile 49.5, and he was on his way back.

He was a mile ahead of me.

I'm like, dude, we've gained a lot of ground, you know, And I really.

Thought, did you get pumped up at that point?

I did.

Yeah.

So that give you a shot of adrenaline?

And I did.

But that bike and hike section, anybody who asked it does Burning River.

It's the hardest section of the whole race.

It's absolutely no shade because it's about 12 miles.

Right.

It's six out, six back.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

And I could not wait to get to that water station at the bridge that goes over Route 8.

And I. I felt really dehydrated by that point.

Yeah.

Now, at what point did you pass him?

So I.

Well, when I got to the halfway, he had sat there for a very long time, I heard, and I knew he was a mile ahead of me.

And I was there for maybe five minutes, and I knew I had a quick turnaround compared to him, and I. I started pulling back and I did my walk, run through the bike and hike just to get through it.

And then when we went into that section going towards Happy Days, I caught him at.

It was like 57.

Okay.

He was walking and we actually went up to him and me and my Pacer Cody, and we just started talking with him, just seeing how he's doing, what his problems were.

And he said, I can't just figure my stomach out.

So then we.

We passed him, and all sudden he's still running with us.

Yeah.

And I realized that he was still trying to hold on.

And then we got up into the ledges, I think it is.

Yeah, the ledges.

And then he was still right behind us, and it was like two miles later.

I'm like, okay, he's getting some life back.

And then eventually he fell off, but he did only.

How much did you win by?

He dropped.

Oh, he ended up dropping.

Yeah.

So who was second then?

His name's John Dragon.

And I won by 20 minutes.

That's what I thought.

Yeah.

Now, he did make me nervous in the beginning because he passed me too.

So at mile 13, he had passed me already, so I was in third.

Oh, okay.

I'm like, dude, I'm getting crushed, you know?

And Dragon.

Yeah.

And that was so cool.

And we shared.

I actually caught back up to him at mile.

I don't remember.

It was.

It was after Indigo Lake, there's a little water stop.

And I helped him get his water and I.

It was like we shared like, a cool little moment because he.

He, like, drops the stuff.

I said, no, I'll fill your bottles up for you.

And we fill each other's bottles up.

And he's like.

Like, oh, thanks.

And we get on the road, we start running together, and he's like, I just.

I want to play this first 50 easy.

I don't want to crush myself.

And I was like, it's great plan, you know, And.

And I knew I wanted to run fast in the beginning and lose some on the back half.

So we just had different plans.

But he looked really strong.

Yeah.

And after meeting him after the race, he's very poised, very like, he looked like he was in the military.

And Funny, his dad is in the military, so I could just tell he's very, very motivated and strong and a bit schedule, but he, he made me nervous because of how strong he looked.

And then as I had my pacers, they would check the results for me, the live results.

And you know, not to skip towards the end, but when I, when we got to the five to go, he.

My.

My pacer, Alex kept checking the results and finally he.

He popped in like 20 minutes and I'm like, all right, we just gotta cruise.

Yeah.

And yeah, that, that gave me a lot of motivation and that's great.

The nice thing was, was that me and him had a two hour gap, one third.

And we didn't know that.

Yeah.

Until the end.

But me and him were close.

Yeah.

So which one did you like more?

Burning river or Mohican?

So Mohican holds careful about the special place in my heart, you know, hey, of course is a course.

Exactly.

I. Mohican was my first 50, my first hundred.

And I love to go back.

Mohican was great weather this year.

Was this your first year doing hundreds?

Okay.

Yeah.

And Mohegan was my first.

I love the course.

It's.

It's awesome.

Mohican's great.

It's.

It's pretty hilly.

Everybody knows the Covered Bridge Hill Mohican.

It's a huge climb.

Burning river just makes me feel like I want to run really fast, but because of the heat or the mud, it just depends on the year.

Yeah, it's.

It's funny.

You think you can go super fast.

Yeah.

It just kind of always stalls you.

Yeah.

So let's circle back around.

What got you into running?

So I always say that I was forced to run in the Marine Corps and not that I liked it.

And the funny thing was, is we have a physical fitness test every year, and it consisted of three exercises.

One was pull ups and then we had crunches.

And then three mile run.

Yeah.

I would have butterflies the night before because I hated running.

It was like the thing I did not look towards.

I. I just despised it.

And I knew it.

It was so painful.

So fast forward, last year in the Marine Corps, my cousin Corey came down to visit me and we went to a resort.

And midnight we get up and he's like, let's go for a run.

And I already don't really like running.

And we got it out a half marathon.

And it wasn't.

That was our Intention.

We were gonna go five miles.

And I was like, all right, I'm done.

He's like, you know, I'm just gonna go to seven.

And I'm like, all right, all right, I'm gonna go in.

In like two or three months before this, I'd been having issues with my left side, which is funny.

We're here and I. I really wanted to figure out what was wrong with my calf and all this, because when I did exercise in the Marine Corps, I was like, what the heck is wrong with my left side?

So I went out to the track behind the barracks and like I said, this is about six months before this with Corey.

And I went to the track and I took my shoes off and I ran loops, or I put two insoles on my left shoe or I just kept experimenting.

I wasn't a runner.

And I did 10 miles that night.

And the light shut off for like the last five miles.

And I went back to my barracks mate.

And he had been a runner.

And I was like, dude, I just did 10 miles around the track.

And he's like, what the heck?

I said, I don't know.

I did like the last eight barefoot, you know.

And he just thought it was insane.

Sam Farabee is his name.

Anyway, we moved forward, ran that half marathon with Corey, gutted it out, Went to Denny's at like 1am After, 2am After.

So when I got out of the Marine Corps, moved in with Corey.

July 2nd is when I got out.

July 4th, we went on a four mile run.

We just asked each other that day.

I don't know who asked who, but it was like, you want to go for a run?

And we said yeah, and just went out running and we would like after about a week, we just ran every day and I started writing stuff on a piece of paper, you know, drawing lines like a graph and say, you know, what if, what if on Saturdays we try to increase by half mile?

And then on Wednesdays we'd increase by half or a quarter mile.

And then on Fridays we had our Friday, Friday four mile speed.

We had a spaceship looking loop on Strava or we use Nike Run Club.

Back then it.

We would just go as fast as we can for four miles.

And we just had a lot of fun.

Yeah.

And every time we increased mileage, we'd try a whole different route.

We'd go, we run nearby town.

Yeah, just anything.

Where were you guys?

Where were you guys living at this time?

Bolivar, Ohio.

Yeah.

And wanted like the 16 miler.

We ran to Beach City and back.

And no headlamps.

We were just using that.

Flashlights on our phones and no one ragtag.

Yeah.

So what year was this then?

Okay.

And just very off the cuff.

When did.

When did things start to kind of, like, shift, Click for you?

Yeah.

You know, like, when did you know you were good?

Or like.

Or like, when did you know, like, oh, I can possibly do something in this.

Like, let's get it.

Let's get it rolling.

So we.

We ran together that year, and he.

He fell out of it, and I was kind of lost because I'd never run by myself, which was so weird.

We ran every single run together.

And I stopped through that winter, and then I started back up in the spring.

I had signed up for our local half marathon.

It went terrible, which it took me two and a half hours, which is a great time, you know, but in terms of how I was running before, I was gutting out, like, sub eights.

Pure misery, you know, it wasn't good, but I was running fast.

Yeah.

But basically what I'm getting at is I just kept running here and there, no plan.

I don't really even understand why.

I mean, so awesome.

The reason why is because I.

My uncle.

I had run because of him at some points because I did the turkey trot.

When I come back from the Marine Corps, we run the turkey trot and which one?

Perry Tuscross.

Yeah.

And I still do that one.

It's like my longest standing race.

I just love going to it.

It's super wide, flat.

Everybody's got their own, like, local turkey, trout.

And so that's why I asked, because.

It'S just Harry runs right in front of my house, and I drive 40 minutes south.

But the good thing about that is, is I drive down there and we run the turkey trot.

And then we hit all of our families on the way back up.

New Philly, Dover, Bolivar.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

It's a big day, you know, and.

That'S the reason why you do it.

It's a big part of it, you know?

And you start to see a lot of people that you just recognize people, you know?

I think it's 21.

I might be wrong, but we ran.

Corey and I ran a ton of races, and we just signed up for literally anything.

I don't know why I mixed this year up, but there was an Ohio Challenge series through nmotive.

Okay.

And if you did five or more 5Ks, no, seven or more 5Ks, you could be put into this point system.

And that was just sounded fun.

And, yeah, they also had one for 10ks.

And they also had a whole category for halves.

Well, we wanted to be in every category.

So we signed up for 30 races that year, and we just kept going and going, and it eventually became where every weekend was a race.

We even had one.

It was a triple 5k weekend.

And it was just silly.

One of them was we finished it, had to drive an hour back to Bolivar and run the Canal Tavern.

Amazing.

So I think.

Sweet.

I think that's what really started the idea that I felt like it was something I really loved.

And.

Yeah, do better and.

Well, you must have.

If you're signing up for that many.

Races, rather than just like stacking races day by day, let's just do one long race.

I've never thought of them as a race, and I know it sounds weird, but I thought of it as like, this is how we get together and have fun.

Yeah.

Hard.

You know, it's like a speed session, which I never did speed until this year.

I just raced a lot all the time.

And, yeah, Corey was always better than me.

Always.

We trained everything together.

And he just always beat me.

He worked physical jobs his whole life.

He just very athletic.

And it got to me, you know, And I had that fiery competition in me.

I wanted to do better.

And I think just that year, racing really just ignited that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's pretty fascinating.

So then when Was your first hundred?

Yes.

Was it Mohican?

It was, yeah.

And I met a great friend, one of my best friends, Kanan Gardner.

We met on Facebook.

I was both.

Our first 50 had similar time goals.

And funny story about this, since it was Covid, they moved the race back to the end of October.

It was 19 degrees that day.

And they had to release us in waves of four every minute.

Yeah.

And we had to wear memories too.

Silly.

And for 100 for the 50.

So this builds up to it.

So we.

He started in wave two.

I started wave 17.

Took a long time to catch up.

And we eventually met up, ran the rest of the race together.

Went well.

Next year, did the 50 together and then want to find a hundred.

And we really wanted to do Mohican as our first well, we gave it an attempt.

Miserable.

We split up like crazy.

It took me 15 and a half hours.

I think this is the year I, I know it's the year this happened, but when I finished the 50 and decided to drop down, Arlen beat the record at the same time.

So he was double my speed literally in the 50.

And I'd never heard of him at that point.

Like I said, my years get mixed up, but I know we dnf the hundred and then we decided to just next year do the 50 again.

Just not just be careful with it.

So then we completed 50.

Yeah, I know, that's when the 100 was.

Yeah, my dates are weird because I race a lot.

It actually went very well, had no blow ups and I was very surprised.

Just nothing really fell off.

Oh good.

What, what did you run that year in terms of time?

So we were really happy with sub 24 on hardcore.

Exactly.

And I don't think we really totally grasped how good that was.

Yeah, because you know, we were just running it and just trying to do as well as we could.

And even if Our first Mohican 50 it was just over 10 hours and I thought we felt terrible, but then I realized like, oh, this is like a decent some time, you know, and, and that's just like that idiot strength.

Yeah.

We just didn't really have a plan and sometimes that doesn't work well, but other times it's, it kind of takes the stress off.

Yeah, I mean it's, it's.

Why like in high school, you know, like freshmen, sophomores just start rocking it and then they got pressure junior, senior year and they might kind of not do as well as you think.

It's not like everybody has this, you know, this exact linear trajectory up and, and sometimes like people run really fast.

As a freshman or sophomore, like a lot of times, like in a season, if somebody has like no pressure, they'll often run well early in the season because they're not quote unquote, peaking.

And like you said, like, the mind can do some weird things and if you don't think too much about it, you can actually do pretty darn well.

Yeah.

Stinks when you overthink things.

Yeah.

You know, then you, when you know your, your limits too much, which, what are limits?

But like when you know it too much, you start to hold yourself back.

You know, I, I Definitely believe in that there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's an interesting point there.

You made like what are limits?

Like that.

That is a fascinating idea and I think that's why my elbow.

I have the time and space tattooed and Portuguese and it's like, it's.

That's an interesting concept to me because we have all just created these inventions of time and space.

Like running 100 miles in under 24 hours is a relative thing.

But like what does that even mean?

Right?

Like it's all like just these con.

Human constructs that we've created that with relevant to like time and space and.

Just to give value.

To give some value and some, some ability to like, you know, like connected to another sort of effort.

Big one's a three hour marathon.

What the heck is a 652?

That is exactly it.

And that's, that's, that's what also fascinates me because that's sort of my, my goal is now that I retired from elite running, it's like.

Yeah.

To just run a sub 3 in every state.

And that just was like, why?

Like, it's like also, you know what I mean?

Like, this is three hours.

Yeah.

You ever seen the bell curves of data with the three and the four hour marathon?

No.

You have like a lot of finishers flatline and then the amount of people that finish right at three is just gigantic.

And then barely any.

And then at 4, it's just gigantic.

It's just these random times.

That's a good point.

Yeah.

It's like benchmarks.

Yeah, they really are.

And you know, everybody's hitting 259 to 301, you know, or 359 to 401.

Yeah.

Same thing with the 24 hour 100.

And the crazy thing about the 24 hour 100 is those courses are totally different.

I mean, you try to do 24 hours of hard rock compared to 24 hours corridor.

Way different.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

So speaking of that, what's next?

I heard you're running javelina.

I am.

Yeah.

That's gonna be, that's gonna be.

Is that your first kind of foray into, you know, a little bit higher caliber and kind of obviously west coast race?

Yes.

Yeah, I.

It's definitely going to be the highest profile race I've ever done.

And it's cool to be a part of it.

I'm cool.

I'm excited.

Those are extreme performers and it's.

I'm like geeking out because it's gonna be fun to meet all those Guys, I can't wait to just to see some of them, you know, just see what it's like.

East coast running, we're on our own thing.

West coast running is their own thing.

And I feel like we don't get a lot of attention over here.

West coast, it's way bigger.

Yeah.

You know, and our courses are hard, you know.

No, I agree.

Technical.

I think I hear that often.

I mean, I mean, Connie and both Ireland have, on this podcast have said the exact same thing.

It's like we just do not get the respect out here.

And, you know, it's.

A lot of it is just because our races aren't quite as famous out here.

So you're not gonna.

You know, a lot of us go out west for the races.

Yeah.

So that's.

That's part of it.

But, like, I think it's also too, like, maximizing on performance.

Like, you can maximize on your performance out west because it's a little bit more predictable.

It's a little less technical.

Rocky Rudy.

Yeah.

We call those buttered trails.

They get shot from every west coast run.

But you know, and even with like, in sake, in terms of live coverage and we're hidden in the trees, you know.

Yeah.

When it's so funny.

I went to Colorado for the first time three years ago, and I don't know why I had this in my head.

I just expected there to be more foliage.

And I just go out there and I'm like, it is barren.

And where'd you go?

We went to.

We went to a couple places.

We visited Boulder.

We visited Colorado Springs, drove through Denver.

I went out there twice, two years in a row for different Marine Corps buddies weddings.

But the big one, it was fun going to Colorado Springs because we got to climb Manitou.

Yeah.

My wife and I did.

What did you, like, were you able to do it?

Yeah.

And how fast did you do it?

We just slow hiked it.

I mean.

Yeah.

It's shocking.

Yeah.

It is insane.

And so my wife was.

She was like, sweaty dying, and I go off trail, get some snow and fill her hat up.

Best thing that ever happened to her.

Yeah.

And it was beautiful being on top and you don't go back down the stairs, at least.

It's.

It's so scary to be able to do that.

Dude.

Yeah.

We took one of the trails now.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

The.

When I was at the Olympic training center, the.

The staff keeps a record of the athletes that.

That, you know, have.

Yeah.

Well, didn't he have, like, one of the best VO2 maxes, too?

Just.

And just freaking.

Just a speed scare.

Just quads.

That's crazy.

The one year we did it.

Did I ever do it with you?

Okay.

Was it with you, the people the crossfitters were carrying kettlebells up?

Yeah, there was a wide array of people there.

Yeah, there was.

There's people with canes.

There's people bear crawling up it.

That's nuts.

Yeah.

I couldn't imagine having.

That is your training backyard.

That is so cool.

Yeah.

I mean, that's the beauty about Colorado.

Like, I was just out there for.

For a backpacking trip with a buddy of mine.

And, like, I thought the same thing, too.

Like, I kind of, like, was like, foo foo on that.

Like, Like.

Because I was like, you know, like, it's Colorado.

It wasn't as, like.

Like, it's mountainous and it's pretty.

And then I went to the South San Juan Wilderness, and it completely just, like, way different.

Yeah.

Fell in love.

Yeah.

That's cool.

Because, like, a lot of me was like, I'd love to move to Colorado until I saw it.

And it's no offense against Colorado.

I'm just like, I kind of missed the trees.

You know, that's funny, is that most people, like, I have a friend that lives in Colorado Springs, and then I have a another friend who's.

Whose parents live in that area as well.

And they kind of like, foo foo on people from Denver and Boulder because it's like, they, like, talk about, like, oh, yeah, we, like, hike and we do this, and, you know, we go over here, and it's like, no, no, you don't.

You don't.

Because no one goes to, like, like, the South San Juan.

Like, yeah, hardly anyone goes.

And it's like, when you go down there, it is intense.

Really.

It's really.

I love fitness shaming.

And out there.

And out there.

You get it, dude.

You get it out there.

They love it.

That's awesome.

Fitness shaming.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

But that's why they call Cleveland, like, Forest City, you know, I mean, it's.

It.

You're just from the trees.

That's where you're at.

You know, it's like your special power.

Like monkeys.

Yeah.

I love Ohio.

I mean, Ohio's got a lot of cool things.

I mean, it's like, this is what I've seen my whole life, but we got a lot of pretty woods.

And.

Yeah.

Even though Cuyahoga national park is one of the lowest ranked national parks out there.

Which is crazy.

If you look on any list and I'm like, man, I like, yeah, 100.

Well it's like when you're from this area and you go to other places and like, if you're like a, like someone who's like big into physical activity, you realize how lucky we have it if you actually use it the way.

That it should be.

Yeah, yeah.

It's nice to run up there.

Yeah, yeah.

But you guys, I say up there, you guys are pretty close.

Yeah.

Five minutes.

Yeah.

That's crazy right here.

I gotta drive like an hour.

Yeah.

It's literally like not even two miles away and we're in the park.

But yeah, that's partially why we're here.

But yeah, I, I did have kind of a question, change in directions here.

Do you have any interest in like multi day race it multi day races or like two hundreds or anything farther?

I do.

The very fearful interest.

But I am on the wait list for cocodona.

I'm number 104, which is pretty promising because last year I've heard like the top 400 got in.

Oh, okay.

When I was registering, you know, this is everybody's story is that the website freezes because ultra signup is suffering every day.

And when you, when I was trying to register, every screen on my, you know, PC and phone froze.

And once I finally got in, I was on the wait list and I was shaking, scared when I was signing.

Up because man, you just know what's coming.

Yeah, I don't, I, I've ran a few hundreds, but I don't know what it's like to wake up after a 30 minute nap and run another 100 miles.

I just don't.

And I want to do well and train well where I, I know I'm not gonna fail it.

I just want to be able to know I'm gonna finish it, just how well I'm gonna do.

Right.

Right.

You know, and, and I, I think I have a good training ethic or work ethic.

Um, but it still scares the hell out of me.

Yeah, for sure.

As it should.

And it sounds cool to do multi day events.

It's.

I love running because you can take yourself somewhere on foot and I think it's the most beautiful thing ever.

It doesn't require anything but yourself, your mind and fueling and stuff like that.

But it's just so cool to be able to travel somewhere.

And that's like my torn mind when I do like really small loop races.

Because why am I running?

Yeah, I'm just a hamster.

I love it because I can just see raw speed.

Logistically, it's easy.

But I also like the idea that I am literally taking myself like Coconut is a 250 mile loop.

I love that you are, you are purposely going somewhere.

You know, if I were to have an intention of a hunter or gatherer, you are doing something for a purpose.

Well, I always joke, like back in the tribes days, I would have been the village messenger.

It's like that's my role.

Right?

No.

So it just feels natural, you know?

Yeah.

Just the discovery aspect of it and the purpose point.

I have said this a lot, but I feel an innate drive to run again.

I think it's something.

It's like a quote unquote lost art because we even had to.

But when I run, I just feel like it was meant for me.

You know, everybody has their own hobbies, their own sports.

But I just think running just feels good.

I mean, it hurts, but it feels good.

Like today we were doing a lunch run and at the end of that run, I was like, I literally said this.

I was like, this is heaven.

I mean like, like if I, if I had a full.

If I had a day of nothing to do, I would be like, yeah, I just go run.

Like, I just.

What else would I do?

Like but double, triple or just keep running?

You know, just.

It's.

It's just awesome.

It feels so natural.

I'm curious, what, why did you choose the Marines?

After high school?

I was conned into it.

Honestly.

Now I, you know, I, I didn't have any future outlook into a college.

So what I was very into when I was in school was I was a trumpet player and very into marching band.

Anything trumpet.

And I didn't have any look on college.

Yeah.

But my dad had just mentioned one time, like, you should join the Air Force.

I mean, it was just like such an offhand comment years before and I guess it kind of stuck with me.

And funny, I went, I took the ASVAB at school and then I talked to my counselor.

I just want to see if I get a hold of the Air Force recruiter.

Never to be found.

I've always heard that now that you can never get a hold of Air Force recruiters.

But since my ASVAB score was out there, you're basically like a target forever.

And I scored really well.

And it.

The Marine Corps recruiter reached out to me and I was 17 and I didn't tell my parents and I, I went to the recruiter's office.

And it almost felt like a drug deal or something, you know, And I go there and, and once you're in there, I mean, you're like with a car salesman.

I mean, and they're, they're trained very well.

And you know, I sit at that desk with him and he greets me and you know, we start talking about the Marine Corps.

And you know, he, they always have these little placards, these little cards, and a lot of them are values and traits and wants and all this.

And he's like, pick three.

You know, and I don't even remember what pick three.

Three.

I picked.

I know that one of them was like, you can be fit all the time and you can travel and blah, blah, blah.

And so it's a very good sales pitch.

Yeah.

And I didn't even know what the military was like.

I was a very naive kid.

I just didn't really know.

And I was like, yeah, this sounds fun, you know, And I called my mom on the way home and both my mom.

And then I called my dad and I was.

And I remembered my words of my mom.

I was like, hey, I think I want to join the Marine Corps.

And she's like, really?

And I said, yeah, I think it'd be fun.

And I think it'd be fun.

Yeah.

Literally my words.

And she, she's like, okay.

And yeah, there's these three cards and.

You don't understand, I like picked them.

And almost to be fit and true travel and like, that's what I'm gonna do.

Some of those cards, he would flip them over and there'd be equal golden anchor sticker on the back.

And that would mean that that's a.

So a lot of them didn't have that sticker, but the ones that did, it was like an intangible thing that you could choose from that.

Like, hey, since you chose this, this is like, this is a really meaningful thing to choose instead of just something silly like you get paid or something, you know, and, and I, I had to get my parents sign offs because I was 17 and they just, they were, they were always very willing to let me figure things out in life.

Very good parents.

They're not together, but, you know, they work together.

They never showed that they were upset with each other.

It was a very good relationship with them.

And I signed up at 17.

And this is literally how stupid I was as a kid.

I'll just say that word is I didn't know I'd be gone for four years.

Like I don't know.

And, and so that's awesome.

The biggest thing I could see me being that's the same situation.

Like, yeah, like just don't do the research.

You're just like, yeah, thanks.

Well.

And be back next week.

That's all.

Like, I mean it's like I knew I'd be gone for boot camp for.

It was.

It's 13 weeks.

Is it okay?

Yeah, it's a long boot camp.

Well.

And so one of the incentives for the recruiter to get me is I could get into the band.

And he wanted.

So getting a musician in the Marine Corps is like really good for your resume as a recruiter.

Later I would find out and you get a bonus.

And all this because it's.

There's very few people in the band.

And I kind of got conned into a way where they said I had to enlist first, then take my audition, which I found out that's total BS and yeah.

So I actually was a radio operator on MOS before I actually auditioned and made it into the audition.

Because you had to enlist, then you had to take an audition.

Not true.

You could audition first.

But I did that and luckily I passed the audition.

And radio operator.

I mean you're like first to die.

I mean you're the guy, you know, one of my best friends, Tommy, who's a radio operator.

So you'll get this man.

Because who are you going to take out?

The guy with comms.

Right.

You're going to take that for sure.

Take out that aspect of the team.

But I got in as a trumpet player.

Um, still had to go to boot camp.

13 weeks and then, you know, I'm in.

And it's a seven month schooling for music, the school of music down in Little Creek, Virginia.

And you know, obviously at that point I know I'm there for a long time.

You know, I mean I quickly realized in the boot camp, you know, my, my idiocracy.

But the Marine Corps was actually great.

You know, it's very, very strict.

They put strictness in music, which is a conflict of interest.

But such cool gigs.

We travel a lot.

I lived in Okinawa for two years.

Been a lot of cool countries.

Definitely wouldn't take it back.

I mean joining at 17.

I was already out of the Marine Corps at 21.

Wow.

And a lot of me was going to stay in.

I just thought I wanted to do other things in life.

It's not like I totally despised it.

There was things I didn't like.

But it's very different not being in an infantry position.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

And that's awesome.

It probably sort of formulated a great backbone for what you're doing now with ultras and stuff.

That's what I was thinking.

There's a very obvious kind of trajectory of that.

I think that one thing is it did.

It just made me be more of a mature adult.

And it's not that I was making very immature decisions as a child.

I just.

Just didn't have like confidence, you know, and I think that just gave me the confidence to like own my shit, you know.

And you know, when I got out and yeah, there was plenty, you know, bouts of endurance that we had to do in the Marine Corps.

Like standing in formation for six straight hours in the middle of January, you know, that's miserable.

And you don't realize you just have that mental fortitude over time.

Have to do it.

You don't even get it choice.

And you literally just have building bricks.

Just building bricks.

Yeah.

It's not like we're at ultra.

You could just dnf.

No, there is no way out and you're in the Marine Corps.

Sorry, I didn't make a. Yeah, no, no, no, no.

I like, like I was gonna say it's just like, it goes back to, I think like your mentality of, of how you tackle like ultras and, and do and do the things that you do.

Because it's like you just let things kind of.

It seems like you let things come to you, but then when you're in those moments, you just have to endure.

You have to just like go through it.

And like I just was thinking about like your track run and then you go back to there.

He's like, dude, I just did like 10 miles.

You just did it.

And like that was that.

And yeah, and there was no time limit and I didn't, I wasn't looking at pace.

There was nothing.

I was just 40 laps.

That's it.

I mean, nothing in my brain.

I don't even remember what it was like then.

I just knew I didn't have any intentions.

And then I think I got to like six miles.

I was like, I wonder if I can just do 10.

You know, that was my first run over six miles ever, which I think.

Is like gonna play in your favor as you continue on this career of, you know, ultra running.

And like the way that I see it from the outside looking in is that it's becoming more data driven.

It's becoming more race tactic heavy.

And it's like at the end of the day, you're Running a hundred miles.

Yeah.

So it's like, is that strategy going to hold up at mile 75?

And the fact that, like.

Yeah, you have a plan going in, but, like, you're just so, like, in that environment, in that.

In that situation, and you can just kind of, like, easily go back and forth, because, again, I think from your background, it's just like, it plays so well.

Just.

Just the mentor inside of it.

I like this concept you're bringing up, because if you compare a 5k to 100 miler, a 5k, you have to be locked in.

You are ready to be an absolute pain.

Yeah.

For not very long.

And we think of a hundred milers, like, at least even the people that are not trying to be competitive.

But let's just say that people are trying to be competitive in that distance.

You look at it as a whole, like, whether you have spreadsheets.

I like a lot of spreadsheets.

And you look at it as a whole, and you're like, all right, there's a lot of stress behind this.

You have to be locked in.

There's a lot of indicator or a lot of things you have to hit along the way.

And then you're 10 miles in, you're just like.

It's quiet out here.

Yeah.

There's nothing really going on.

I mean, you just gotta run, and it's not that stress.

Inducive.

Yeah.

You just.

Well, I've trained, and I'm just running.

Let's just keep going.

Yeah.

And I have these, like, points that I won't introduce music until after 50 miles and things like.

I call them luxury points.

And when you don't introduce any of that, you're just kind of in your own head.

You don't really have anything to do.

You just go on autopilot.

It's not a very, you know, pomp and circumstance type run.

Even at the end, when you finish, it's like, hey, congrats.

Yeah, there's, like, four people there.

Yeah.

Well, in the spring, I get into marathon running every year, and I'm like, man, this is so hype.

Everybody's screaming.

Everybody knows what the marathon is.100 miler.

I mean, you'd be lucky to get an award anytime.

Right?

Right.

I know.

I tell people, it's like, you do, like, world marathon major, like New York or London.

You got, like, 2 million spectators, you know, that's unreal.

Not even the World cup final gets that many.

No spectators.

It's nuts.

My first ultra that I did, it was like, because I.

Because I come from like the track world and cross country and stuff.

And when.

When I used to run at Akron.

So, like, I took an extended period of time off and.

Because I was burned out from just that type of competition and injuries and stuff.

And then I got into ultras and I did gnomes down in.

In Tuscar or at.

At Tuscazor.

Yeah.

And so my first one that I did, we could go into a whole story, but I'm not going to.

I thought I had one, but I ended up getting second.

No.

And somebody cheated.

Yeah, somebody cheated, but intentionally.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I mean.

I mean, when you connect the dots, it makes sense that they intentionally cheated.

I'm giving them grace, but it's fine.

And so I was like, in my head, I was like, man, I can't believe, like, I want my first, like, like 50K, whatever.

And there was like seven people there and it was like the race directors, Arlen, one of my patients.

Then like my family.

And then the race record is like, hey, hey, congratulations.

Here's your metal.

Go get a gnome off the table and maybe see you next year.

And that was that.

And then I just went back to our tent.

Silly.

So what are some other luxury points you have?

That's a good.

That's a good question.

There are a few.

Music's one of them.

One thing that floats throughout a race is I call virtual pacing.

Okay.

My brother Tommy.

Call my brother.

We're best friends.

He calls me throughout.

My wife calls me throughout.

A bunch of people call me throughout.

That's.

That's something that's impromptu whenever it happens, the music, like I said, caffeine, huge one.

So I don't use caffeine for much in life.

Like I'm.

I don't drink coffee, nothing.

And I. I use it for specific training days or races.

And I will.

I love to wait till if I can.

50 through 70.

I've done.

I've done some experiments like with Hialeah 100 this year, 3 mile loop.

I started taking in at 20, 20, 40, 60.

Just seeing how it plays out.

Because as you use it, even through a day, your tolerance starts building immediately.

You know, it doesn't have its same effect.

So I want to get it to extend as long as possible.

Because caffeine is a performance enhancer.

Absolutely.

In my opinion, especially if you don't have any tolerance.

And I have zero tolerance.

And so I will wait long for that.

Wait long time for real food.

And that's something I've done for the past year.

I will take straight Powdered race fuel or gels, even all through like 80, 90 miles, even at Tuscazor.

Finally, the last 15 miles, I was just eating a bunch of white bread, which was great.

It, like, kind of helps soak stuff up in my stomach.

And it's a luxury thing.

I'm like, yeah, I get to taste like good food.

That's a good.

That's a good strategy.

McDonald's, McDouble.

Huge.

You know, sometimes on races, Sam, my wife, she'll bring me mayonnaise and cheese.

Only McDouble.

It's just great.

My dad and I used to eat those all growing up, but that is a good thing.

And then the best one of all.

Trying something, dude.

Try it.

It's so good.

Pacers, huge part of it.

And I do like running solo.

Hundreds.

But when I have the option for pacers, it's very helpful.

And now I've had pacers.

Brad Trexler, he's been my longest pacer in terms of one segment.

He did 41 miles with me at eastern states.

But typically, if I can have short distances with pacers, it's even nicer.

New conversations, you know, with my.

One of my best friends, Kanan, that I did my first ultras with.

We would run the entire 100 together and 50 miles in.

What do you have to talk about?

Literally nothing.

We've talked about everything that exists.

So when you have frequent pacers, it's just like new light.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah.

So that's the majority of them.

I. I don't, like, change shoes or anything like that.

I mean, I. I have brushed my teeth once in a race.

That was a nice luxury.

I mean, that makes you feel like you woke up in the morning, especially.

With all those gels and everything.

Yes, yes.

And then that's a good one, too.

It feels good.

And I did that at a backyard ultra.

That was where it was kind of more applicable.

Like, instead of, like, you run an eight minute pace and you just brush your teeth.

You know what?

You could.

I. I haven't actually tried that recently.

But another thing, and this is like, it shouldn't be a crazy idea, but drinking a plain, straight bottle of water.

Oh, my God.

Without any fueling, just pure water.

It will revitalize you.

Jeremy Pope said the same thing.

Yeah, it's weird.

He said that.

He goes, sometimes we, like, look at, like, element and these hydration drinks, and he goes, sometimes a straight bottle of water can just do the trick.

Palate fatigue is insane.

Yeah.

As soon as you start getting over sugared in the mouth.

Like, I think your digestion.

I'm sure there's science behind it, but I'm sure your digestion literally starts refusing things because your taste buds are telling it.

Like, dude, I'm tired of taking.

Yeah, yeah.

100 diabetic for the past 20 hours.

You know, Like, I, I think there's a lot to be said.

Yeah.

Great feedback loop there.

Yeah, man, this is.

This is great.

This has been such a great episode.

We're already almost 50 minutes in.

Oh, good stuff.

I do have one.

One quick kind of a side question.

Do you still play the trumpet?

No.

It's sad.

Yeah, Yeah.

I, I.

You lost your Miles Davis.

Yeah, him and Adam.

When I got out, Adam was a trumpet player.

Oh, yeah.

Did you know that, Stackpole?

No.

Yeah, you should.

You should talk to him about it.

He was in band and all that and all that.

I think I knew that.

Yeah.

I'm pretty sure he played trumpet.

Really?

Yeah.

He has a lot of life stories.

I noticed that when he started talking.

About, like, doesn't he like NASCAR and stuff?

I'm like, who are you?

Yeah, dude, I actually only met him for real, like two months ago.

And he's funny.

I like that.

Yeah.

This is a guy I went to high school with.

He's like one of my best friends.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we're telling him at Cheeky Monkey, dude, just stop running with us.

You're gonna tear your hamstring.

He's like, well, no, I'll just go out for another mile.

It's not that big of a deal, man.

And he's like limping, starting, and then he still runs like a sub six mile every time.

So he's got.

He's a.

He's a gamer.

He's always been a gamer, dude.

Yeah, he, he really.

Yeah, we did.

We did rim to room to rim with him last year.

Oh, cool.

That was a fun experience because he talk about data.

That dude is.

He is a nerd.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't like data.

It.

I like it after.

That's probably what makes him less of a.

And I would say this even if he was in this room.

I think I actually said it on the R3 podcast we did.

It's what makes him less effective as a runner.

He thinks way too much.

Yeah.

Like, he's so many things are like, yeah, but this.

And then.

But this.

And then, you know, he's just do way too many variables.

Like, racing is Picasso.

Racing is not painting by numbers.

Like, training is that Racing is art.

Yeah.

You know, it's not the science side of it, like training is science.

Racing should be like, yeah, when, when.

I was low, when I was in the Marine Corps band, one thing that my instructor in the Marine Corps School of Music would tell me is your training is when you think of everything.

That is everything.

But when you perform, your muscle memory, is that all you have to worry about.

Just let, let all your training play its part and actually have fun.

So like when you finally get to the performance, that's when you just get to thrive.

And actually every one of my PRs, I purposely did not look at my watch once and that was fun.

With the marathon, I didn't look at it until the very end.

I only will keep a heart rate screen on and.

Cause I just know when my heart rate reaches something, I'm not sustaining it.

And when I.

And that may be a false too.

And when I got to the end, I see my time, I'm like, holy cow.

You know, I don't think it is.

I think there's a lot of truth to that.

I think heart rate is one of the best indicators of how well your body's going.

You know, one of the, one of the things I have to do with my athletes that I coach now, it's like I have to actively work them out of looking at their watch multiple times in a mile.

And it's like you need to be able to, to, to assess how you're running based off feel and be able to go huge swaths of miles.

Especially in the marathon.

You should be able to go like 5k at a time and just kind of know your own pace.

Yeah.

And just not look at your watch.

Yeah.

And it should know that rhythm.

It's very empowering to them when they do it because they instantly realize they start to run faster because they're not so anxious, anxiety driven.

You know, they, they can just like ease into it and kind of let the race kind of come to them a little bit more rather than being so kind of hamstrung by the times and the watches.

Yeah.

So like, what if you were supposed to hit a six minute mile, that was your goal and you look down and it's a 6:15 and you're like, man, I thought I was doing so much better than that.

And then you start freaking out.

Or the flip side, you look down, it's 5:45.

Oh, I should hold myself back.

Yeah.

Right.

What is either one helping?

But what's amazing is that, you know, even within a given mile, people will look at Their watch numerous times, which is weird to me.

But you're, you're supposed to have a variance of pace.

Like that's why the treadmill running is hard.

So like in a given mile, if you run or want to run a six minute mile, at times you'll be running 540.

At times you'll be running 610.

At times you'll be running 558.

But you average to six.

Yes.

And that variance is normal.

It's the same thing with heart rate.

You want hrv, you don't want the same stimulus in the same beat.

Yeah.

So that variety is actually very therapeutic for the body.

So like, why are you looking at it?

It's going to average to something and that average is what matters.

Back to the kind of time and space concept again.

You know, it's just like, totally agree with that.

Just lock in and just feel the.

Feel the moment and just kind of perform in the now.

Yeah, I love that.

Absolutely.

I mean, how many years did we run without watches and all this?

Yeah, this is a fairly new thing.

Or a Timex watch.

Just like a regular Timex.

Well, I don't race with gps.

I wear Timex.

Do you?

Yeah.

Hmm.

I don't.

So I actually don't use GPS when I race.

You know what the rule is though?

What is the rule?

It didn't happen, brother.

If it's not a Strava, you didn't pr.

Yeah, that's where we're at.

I think.

I have one marathon ever and it's my slowest marathon ever on Strava.

That's wild.

Like, because when I was running elite, like, obviously that didn't really exist.

It disconnects you.