Ghostwriting might seem like a secretive craft, but it’s anything but. Kent Sanders breaks it down: this isn’t about hiding in the shadows—it’s about creating stories that genuinely connect. As the founder of Inkwell Ghostwriting, Kent has helped entrepreneurs and leaders bring their journeys to life in ways that inspire and resonate.

If your story isn’t reaching people, what’s getting lost in translation? Is it the message? The delivery? Or maybe, it’s just missing that human touch.

Your story is the bridge between you and your audience. If you fail to connect, you’re not just missing an opportunity—you’re letting relationships, impact, and trust slip through your fingers. But the good news? When you get storytelling right, it transforms everything.

In this episode, Kent takes us on his journey from college professor to ghostwriting powerhouse, revealing how storytelling goes way beyond just putting words on a page. It’s about digging deep, building connection, and translating someone’s vision into a narrative that lands exactly the way they dreamed it would.

Three Big Takeaways and Actionable Steps

1. The Power of Understanding: Get Inside Their Story

Ghostwriting (or any kind of storytelling) isn’t about slapping words together—it’s about understanding the person behind the story. You’re not just writing; you’re capturing their essence.

• Actionable Tip: Ask deeper questions before starting a project. Not just, “What’s the story you want to tell?” but, “Why does this matter to you?” and “What do you want your audience to feel?”
• Bonus: Try mapping out key moments of your journey to see the bigger picture. This "story map" becomes your roadmap for building a narrative that sticks.

2. Real Connections Beat Surface-Level Networking Every Time

Networking is about relationships, not resumes. Forget the business cards and LinkedIn requests. It’s the small, thoughtful gestures that build trust and open doors you didn’t even know existed.

• Actionable Tip: This week, send a quick, personal note to someone you admire—a handwritten letter, a voice memo, or a thoughtful email. Be specific about what you love about their work.
• Bonus: Make a habit of checking in with your network regularly—especially when you’re not asking for anything. Think of it as planting seeds for future growth.

3. Stay Curious, Stay Open, Stay Moving

The creative journey isn’t about perfection—it’s about progress. Every failure is a chance to refine your craft. The most successful creatives? They’re the ones who embrace learning, even when it’s uncomfortable.

• Actionable Tip: Set aside 30 minutes this week to dive into something new—a book, podcast, or course that challenges how you think.
• Bonus: Reflect on a recent mistake. Write down what it taught you and how you’re using that lesson to grow.

Kent Sanders reminds us that storytelling isn’t just a skill—it’s a superpower. Done right, it can transform your business, strengthen your relationships, and amplify your impact. The question is: Are you ready to take your story to the next level?

Need Help with Your Creative Business?

If you’re a creative entrepreneur ready to make your business stand out, visit The Standout Creatives. Whether you're launching your next book, podcast, course, or digital product, I’d love to help you turn your vision into something extraordinary.

Spots are limited, so if you’re ready to chat about your next big idea, don’t wait—sign up now to grab your spot before they’re gone! Let’s make your next launch the one that truly sets you apart.

Ken Sanders is the founder of Inkwell Ghostwriting, which helps leaders grow their business through books and other content.

He is also the author of numerous books and he, in addition to writing books for himself and his clients, he likes to help other writers.

He's the host of the Profitable Writer podcast.

He's the founder of the Profitable Writer Community, a member of a group that helps writers grow their businesses.

And he was also a guest on my previous podcast, Cracking Creativity.

You can find that@CrackingCreativity.org 70 Kent, can you tell us a little bit about yourself for those who haven't listened to the previous episode and kind of how you got into what you're doing now?

Absolutely.

Well, Kevin, thanks for having me on.

First of all, it's been great to reconnect with you.

It had been a while since we chatted before.

We sort of reconnected what I think a few weeks ago or something.

So.

So we've actually known each other what, probably eight or 10 years, would you say something like that?

Yeah, it's been quite a while.

It's been a while.

Yeah, I know.

So it's been really cool to follow your journey and see the cool things that you're doing over the years.

So a bit about me.

So I am a full time ghostwriter, which basically means that I write books for entrepreneurs and business leaders who don't have the time or the interest or the ability to write their own books.

Typically I'm helping them to share a framework of some kind about a business process or some way that they help their customers or clients.

Sometimes I write memoirs for people.

At times that's more of a celebrity basis kind of a thing.

Sometimes it's just somebody's personal story that they want to get out there into the world, but that's the main thing that I do.

But I also run a membership community for writers, as you mentioned in the intro, called the Profitable Writer Community.

And I do some author coaching and I write my own books as well.

And I came to that from being a college professor.

For how long did I do that job for?

17 years full time.

Did it part time like a year before that and then actually a year after that as well when I transitioned full time into my ghost writing business.

So was a college professor for a long time.

And then I actually was a music pastor at a church way back in my twenties about a million years ago.

So have have had kind of a varied career.

But I've enjoyed every step of the journey and love what I'm doing now because I get to talk to cool people like you on their podcast.

So that's a bit about me.

That's very cool.

Yeah.

When we talked previously, you were in the middle of still teaching, I believe.

Yes.

And you were doing so.

Yeah, writing on the side.

Um, when was the point that you decided that you could potentially turn this into a full time career versus splitting your time?

Boy, that's a great question.

There were really two or three.

I'm just gonna call them inflection points.

That sounds like a fancier term than it actually is.

But I think, I do think that's the best word to use to describe points for me along my journey that made it clear that I wanna do something different.

And I'll try to make this a big, long, drawn out, elaborate story.

So this has been about nine years ago.

The college where I worked was a small Christian College in North St.

Louis.

I'd worked there for a long time and there were several issues that kind of came to a head at one time.

So we had.

And I hope nobody, I'm hoping nobody who I used to work with is listening to this because they probably will feel like they were misrepresented a little bit.

But I'm just telling this from my point of view and I doubt that any of those people even follow anything that I'm doing these days.

So it's totally irrelevant.

But there were several faculty members who, they were involved in different controversies, different things that were going on at the school that were either controversial or there was some kind of an issue they were involved in of some kind.

At any rate, they were causing some problems.

And I'm sure they would debate my language in using to describe that.

But anyway, the point of this part of my story was that all those things came to a head at once.

And when you have a small organization, several minor, what feels like minor problems can all add up to one giant sort of explosion.

It was the end of that academic year where all these things came to a head at once.

And a whole bunch of people at our school either got fired or they left at the same time.

And it was a huge crisis.

I was actually friends with all those faculty members who either left or got let go, but I was not involved in any of the issues that they were involved in.

And what that taught me when we went through that was that I never, ever wanted that same thing to happen to me.

And I never wanted to put myself in a position where I could be let go and that I would be without employment.

And I just never wanted to feel vulnerable and to be in that situation.

And so it was really around that time that I determined that I need to figure out my plan B, whatever that was going to be.

Now, another dynamic at our school was that our enrollment was continually going downhill.

So every year it was getting less and less.

It was a small Christian college, which is really vulnerable to begin with in terms of enrollment and funding and all those kinds of things.

And so I knew I needed to develop something on the side.

So around that time, I started figuring out what was I going to do next.

And so I got connected with a friend of mine who was a podcast producer, and I started writing podcast show notes for a couple of his clients just to make some extra money on the side.

And when I started getting paid to write, that showed me that, hey, maybe it's possible to do this for a living.

And every few months, you know, I would get.

Get a deposit in my bank account from my podcast producer friend.

And it wasn't that much money, but to us, it was really significant.

And I just remember thinking, man, if I could just do more of this, that would be really fantastic.

And so I just kind of kept plugging away, doing side writing gigs, podcast show notes, writing articles for clients, really anything that I could do to create some extra income.

A friend of mine, his name is Nick Pavlitas, he runs a great course called Ghostwriter School.

He had been a successful ghostwriter, and so he let me be the first student in his new course that he was putting together.

It was new at the time.

I went through that, and I just started building a ghostwriting business based on what I learned from his course.

And so it was really those three inflection points.

Number one, going through a crisis in my day job.

Number two, getting my first paid clients, and then, number three, going through a ghostwriting course.

Those three things kind of set the stage for me of really wanting to do this full time.

And I made a lot of mistakes along the way.

I wasted a lot of time over those years when I could have been much more focused, but I didn't know what I didn't know.

And fortunately, I've had a wife who's been very supportive the whole time.

And once I got those first couple of ghostwriting clients, I knew that I could build this fairly Quickly into something that was making as much in my side business as I was making as a college professor.

So once I had that threshold kind of met, then I just decided, okay, I need to set a point where I'm going to transition away from this job and then go into this full time.

And that's what we did.

So that's been several years ago and I've been doing this full time ever since.

So that's.

That's kind of the short version of the answer.

Yeah, there's a lot that ultimately goes into a decision like that.

It's not absolutely one day you decide, oh, I'm just going to quit.

I mean, some people do do that, which is.

Some people do.

Um, but I think ultimately we need to have some sort of game plan for how we want to proceed.

If we need a backup plan.

Something like what you were doing, you have to do a lot of experimenting.

Can you talk a little bit about some of the things that you tested out that you said were for failures and then how you ultimately ended up with some of the clients that you landed?

Oh, yeah, I.

I love talking about the things that I failed at because sometimes I get a little frustrated listening to people's stories and they only share the highlights.

And I always, I mean, I'm thrilled for people when they're successful, but I relate to failure as well because I failed at a lot of things.

I've experimented with a lot of things that did not work, things that were dead ends or things where I'm like, eh, this thing's okay, but it doesn't really excite me.

So I love hearing about the things that didn't work for people.

So there were several things that I did that did not work for me.

One of them was now this.

There was.

There was somebody in our extended family who was getting to network marketing.

They were selling products from this company that it was like all these different juices and vitamins and supplements and healthcare stuff, which I had zero business getting into to begin with because, no, nobody takes a look at me and thinks, oh, that guy's really athletic, or he's like some kind of person who has any valid credibility with, you know, telling people about health products or something.

But somebody in our extended family had done really well with selling these products.

And So I borrowed $2,000 from my dad, I bought into this network marketing thing.

They shipped this massive amount to our house.

Now, to be fair, I really personally loved the products.

They were really, really good.

I loved all the.

All the stuff that we were using.

They were great.

And so it was nothing against the company.

It was that I had no business getting into network marketing because I just was not good at that type of selling.

Now, I'm sure people who are good at that would argue with me and they would say, well, you didn't do this, or this or this, and they would be right.

I just didn't enjoy it.

That was not the right thing that I should have gotten involved in.

And so after just a few weeks, it was obvious to me that this was not going to work.

So I decided to shut it down.

That was actually the only thing I've ever done where my wife actively protested me getting involved in it.

She basically said, I think this is a huge mistake.

You don't have any business doing this.

You're not good at this kind of stuff.

This is a complete waste of your time.

And she refused to help me with it.

And she was right in doing so.

But being kind of stubborn, I went ahead and persisted and ended up wasting $2,000 of my dad's money.

So I tried to pay him back a couple years later when I scraped up enough money to be able to do that, and he was like, you don't need to pay me back.

So he forgave that loan and has never accepted me trying to repay him back.

That was one thing I failed at.

Another thing I would say that.

And there's been many things.

But I'll.

I'll share this one, too.

And I also decided that I was going to ignore all the good advice that my wife was giving me.

She was telling me to focus on my writing because that was the thing that I was really, really good at.

So being really smart, I chose to ignore her advice.

I wrote a.

Wrote a book that summer.

It did okay, and I enjoyed that, But I thought, man, I really want to make some faster cash.

So I keep seeing this thing called Fulfillment by Amazon where you go out and you buy all this stuff and then you ship it to Amazon and you sell it and you get paid for it.

And all the stuff that I saw made it seem like it was a really easy thing to do.

And so I bought all the stuff.

I bought, like the heat gun and the shrink wrap stuff and the scanner to list all the items.

And I listed like a thousand of my own books on Amazon.

It took the whole summer, literally, to figure out what I was doing to ship all this stuff and go through all the rigmarole.

So I basically wasted a whole summer on FBA or fulfillment by Amazon.

I ended up making a little bit of money on it.

I mean, it does work if you work the system and you get really good at it.

But the problem is that I, I didn't give it enough time to work.

Also, it was just a lot of stinking work to list all those things, stuff to keep up with everything and like it.

It's a.

I mean, it's definitely a business.

But then the kicker was the.

Some stuff sold, but most of it didn't sell very well.

And then I ended up having to pay Amazon to destroy the rest of my inventory.

Whoa.

Because, yeah, that's the crazy part.

So basically they either said, okay, we've got all these hundreds of books that we're storing for you.

You either need to pay us to ship them back to you, you need to pay us to continue to store them, or pay us to destroy them.

So literally, I paid Amazon a couple hundred dollars to destroy the books that I had, number one, paid for when I bought them, and number two, paid to ship them to them.

So, I mean, talk about an absolute abject failure of a, of a business venture that was pretty bad.

So when that failed, I, I thought maybe I should listen to my wife more.

And that's when I really started to lean more into writing.

And, you know, lo and behold, who would have thought the thing that you focus on is actually the thing that improves.

So, yeah, I've had a lot of, A lot of failures over the years, but those are two of the big ones.

Now, you asked also about connecting with clients.

The main thing that I did and the main thing that I continue to do is just build relationships with people.

I've done a podcast for a long time.

My podcast has been a really great way I've connected with people and just building relationships.

And specifically with ghostwriting, though, I followed my friend Nick Pavlidis advice when he said the best way to promote your ghostwriting business when you're getting started is just to tell people that you're building a ghostwriting business and to ask if they might know somebody who might be interested or would want to chat and just be very servant minded, but also let people know this is what you're building, because when you do that, then eventually somebody will refer somebody to you that needs a ghostwriter.

And the trick is just getting those first one or two clients and then it builds up from there.

So.

So yeah, that was a super, super long answer, but that's the gist of a couple of big failures as well as really how I started connecting with clients.

I think a really good point in there was your.

One is your willingness to fail.

A lot of people aren't willing to fail, or when they do fail, they let it stop them permanently.

So when I was previously doing Cracking Creativity and my blog for helping artists, I did hit that point where I'm like, okay, this is not working.

And I took a long break, but now I'm refocusing because I realized it was not who I should be helping.

Because you need to find the right people who are looking for the things that you're trying to offer.

That's right.

If you're just trying to offer stuff to people because you think they need it, that's not going to work.

They have to watch what you're offering.

And when you build that trust and connection that you said you built with the podcast, you'll eventually land upon people.

And the second thing is the networking portion of what you said.

I think that's also super important because it is.

That's like the easiest way to meet people or get referrals to people.

Because that's right.

You might know, I don't know, maybe 100 people pretty closely, but if each of those people knows 100 other people, that's like your odds of finding somebody that might need it is going to increase exponentially.

The trick I think is if you're doing some kind of client based work is you have to get to know people who know your ideal client, whoever that person is.

So like, for example, if you wanted to.

Well, in my case.

So my target client for ghostwriting, the general kind of person that I typically work with, is somebody who, they have more money than time.

So they're a busy CEO or entrepreneur, they're running a successful company, they have the money to be able to afford ghostwriting, but they don't really know any ghostwriters.

And so then who, who is the kind of person that I would need to connect with?

It's not necessarily other ghostwriters.

I mean, I do, I do know a lot of other ghostwriters and I connect with them and try to serve them and help them.

But who are, who is the kind of business person that my ideal client connects with?

It's people like attorneys, CPAs, advisors of different kinds, people that they would interact with on a regular basis, insurance people, you know, Any of those people can refer you to your ideal client.

I mean, think of all the different kinds of people that a typical business owner interacts with.

All those people are great connections for me.

You know, people in finance or banking or, you know, like I said, insurance or publishing, content creation, web designers.

I mean, you name it.

So one of the, one of the interesting things that I have learned over the years, which was a surprising lesson to me, is that sometimes the people that you connect with who you think are going to be a good source of referrals or connections, that doesn't necessarily mean they will be.

And then sometimes you'll have people in your life who you kind of write off a little bit, who you don't think maybe they really know anybody of importance.

And I'm being.

That sounds a little harsh when I say it, but we all kind of have people in our life who we sort of think that about.

We don't think they're well connected or we don't think maybe they're worth investing time into.

Sometimes those people will really surprise you.

They will really, really surprise you.

In fact, that's, that's how I got my first ghostwriting client, is I connected with this person at this little bitty workshop I was teaching at.

And this person, this is going to sound a little judgmental, I guess, but this person was like a little, kind of an oddball, a little bit squirrely.

And I, to my discredit, maybe I had written them off a little bit as just being sort of an odd person who probably didn't know anybody close to my ideal client.

You know, why, how, why would this person know any successful entrepreneurs?

Well, as it turned out, she was really good friends with somebody who was a very successful business owner.

And this person ended up referring me to that person who became my first ghostwriting client.

And she was an amazing client.

So I learned an important lesson from that, is that sometimes, you know, these initial judgments that we have about people are not always correct.

And we should never, ever write off anybody, even if they have maybe a weird personality or there's something about them that turns us off or whatever it is.

You never know who other people know.

And sometimes when we make those snap judgments, they're completely off base.

Yeah, I mean, it takes a concentrated effort to be open and willing to, to talk to people.

Even if you have that first impression, it's like, that's right.

I just need to get to know this person for who they are and not judge that prejudge them.

It's like judging the Book by its cover kind of deal.

You need to just talk to people, get to know them.

And if it comes up naturally, in this particular case, you're doing a workshop, so it kind of comes up on its own.

But Right.

Even when you're just talking to your friends or family, it's like you have to be willing first to put yourself out there and then be willing to accept any recommendations or anything that people might tell you, even if you thought previously that it wasn't going to work.

Yeah, I do think that we have to be open to people.

And again, it is so easy just to make a snap judgment about somebody.

Maybe they look a certain way or they have a certain personality, or maybe we connect with them in a certain context where we think, well, the context of how I met this person is the totality of who they are.

But that's not always the case.

For example, the person I was just talking about, the context for that was I had been invited to do a presentation at this writing workshop, and I had drove like three hours or something to get there, and a friend of mine had put this workshop on.

It was at a local library, I think, and there was just a very small handful of people there, like six or seven.

And so I kind of left that evening feeling a little discouraged because I thought, man, there's just a handful of people here.

Was this even really worth my time?

But that lady was one of the people who was there that night, and we ended up becoming friends.

She got involved in a Facebook group that I was leading at the time, and lo and behold, she referred my first client to me.

So you just never know where a great referral is going to come from or a great connection.

I think something that we can all keep in mind is that you make your own luck, right?

That's right.

You could have gone there and let it get you down because you only saw six or seven people, but you were still willing and open to talk to this person who was able to then refer you.

So I think that's right.

You can only become, like a better networker if you're willing to put yourself into the places where these sorts of people are going to be, even if you don't know whether or not your specific ideal client will also be there.

Yeah, I think that the size of the.

And here I'm talking specifically about events or opportunities where you meet people.

The size of the event almost always has no bearing on the value of the event.

I would say that the two.

I mean, other than you can meet more people Potentially at a larger event.

But I have found that sometimes the bigger events, you don't always get something out of that necessarily unless you're really intentional about connecting with people.

But just because you're around a lot of people doesn't necessarily mean it's more valuable.

I personally prefer smaller events because I like a smaller group.

I like talking with people more.

I'm just wired to, to the degree where I would rather have a few meaningful conversations with people rather than going around and saying hi to 150 different people, but having it be very shallow and you don't have the time to really invest in a conversation.

That's just me, though.

That's the way I'm wired.

Some people love the energy of big events.

I personally, you know, I'm kind of an introvert, so I tend to avoid crowds if at all possible.

So, yeah, that's just my own take on it.

Yeah, I think it really does depend on who you are and the best thing is to know how you operate.

So you wouldn't go into a big event expecting to make those super strong connections.

I mean, you can.

And like you were saying, you do need to be very intentional about it because when there's events like that, there's so many people you potentially can meet.

People like to just jump around from people to people who have small conversations as opposed to some of the deeper conversations.

So if you're somebody who can network really well, really quickly and can talk to a lot of people while not losing energy, then those are the types of events you should go to.

Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned energy.

I think that's a really important facet of, of yourself to be aware of what gives you energy and what depletes your energy.

And I'm kind of on a quest now in my life to get rid of as many things as possible that deplete my energy and to do as many things that give me energy.

One of those things.

It's actually very simple.

It sounds, I mean, it sounds almost kind of silly that it's so simple, but I have a pretty solid rule where I don't do any calls on Fridays.

And I've heard a lot of people talk about this where they set aside like a specific day where it's just.

Them, you know, that's been a real game changer for me.

And I typically don't do them on Mondays either.

Now I have broken that the last couple of weeks out of necessity, but knowing that Monday is just a straight admin day for me, catching up on admin stuff.

And that Friday is either a day I can go visit my dad, who's not in good health, he lives in Illinois, the next state over, or I can just do client writing that day, put my head down.

I don't have any, any other interaction those days where I can just focus in on stuff that to me, has really, really helped a lot.

And.

But then Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, those are heads down.

I'm doing a lot of interviews like this where I'm either a guest or I'm interviewing people for my own show, or I've got my membership, community stuff, client calls, you know, all kinds of just connection stuff.

I'm.

Those days are packed typically, but I know that Friday's coming and that I can use up all my, my people energy on those three days.

But then on Friday, I don't.

I don't have to reserve any energy for that.

I've got energy for other things that I need to do.

So for me, that's really, really helped.

I think everybody has to figure out their own system, but I can tell you for sure that that's.

That's been a.

That's been a really good decision for me.

How long did it take you to develop this?

You know, like, a couple of years.

Yeah, because I would get to, to like, Friday and just go, oh my gosh, I've got two calls today.

And I would.

And it has nothing to do with the person I'm talking to at all.

It's just that as an introvert, you know, maybe people listening can relate to this if you're wired this way.

I wake up every single day and I have any.

I have an acute awareness of how much energy is in my emotional battery, and there's nothing I can do to replenish that energy during the day.

I only have so much of it, and when it's gone, it's gone.

And there have been a lot of times over the years where I have just packed my day full of calls and then I would get to 3 or 4 o'clock and I'm like, the battery's dead.

And I've got another podcast interview or I've got a client call or I've got to do this or that, and you just have to force your way through it.

And that's really no fun.

When you have to force your way through a conversation, then you feel like you're not serving people well.

And so I've just have learned over the last year and a half or so to really kind of Gear myself up for those that Tuesday through Thursday.

And that's.

That's a totally great way for me to do it.

But it just really kind of came out of not managing my schedule very well.

But I didn't know that I needed to do it differently or that I could do it differently.

So I think a lot of it's just.

It's trial and error and figuring out what works for you.

Yeah, I mean, I think experimentation in all facets of life is very important, not just in your business.

You know, a lot of people will do the experimentation in their business and leave their personal life alone, which usually doesn't work out, because then you get stuck in this, like, routine of the mundane, as I would like to call it.

But if you can figure out what makes you tick and operate better, then you should do that in any way you possibly can, really.

Yeah.

Gosh, that is such a great point, because especially if you own your own business, or even regardless of whether it's full time or full time, you have to set it up in a way that you want.

And it is so easy to look at what somebody else is doing and go, well, they're doing it that way, so I've got to do mine this way.

And I've just tried to be much more aware of how.

How I feel emotionally during the day about certain things.

And just honestly, one of the things that really helped me to.

To redo my schedule was there was.

Gosh, this is.

This is probably about a year, a year and a half ago.

There was one particular day.

I don't remember the date, but it was a day where I had, like, six Zoom calls that day.

And I was on Zoom for, I think, six hours that day.

And I was so depleted by the end of.

And I think the previous day, I had been on Zoom for several hours, and maybe the day before that, too, I don't remember.

But I ended that day, and I was so depleted mentally that I literally could not have a conversation with my wife because I just.

I was completely talked out.

And some people listening to this will understand what I mean.

You know, when.

When you're all talked out, you literally don't have the capacity to form the words to have a conversation with somebody.

I felt the same thing at times.

In my 20s, when I was a music pastor, the church where I was working at, we had three morning services, and for several years we had a Sunday evening service.

And by the time that Sunday evening service was over, I'd been in four church services that day.

And I've been talking with people all day, blah, blah, blah.

And literally as soon as that Sunday night service was done, I would pack my guitar away and I would.

This sounds juvenile, but this is what I did most of the time is I would pack up my guitar and I would sneak out the back of the church.

We lived in a parsonage next door.

The church had three parsonages, which is, I know, kind of odd, but I would sneak out the back door of the church to avoid talking to anybody because I literally did not have the words to have another conversation.

And I think if you're.

If you have your life or your business set up that way and those things are depleting to you, then you have to figure out another way to manage your energy throughout the week.

And there's all kinds of different ways of doing that.

I suppose for me, one of the things has just been saying no to more things, you know.

And there's a great author that I really like.

His name is Derek Sivers.

He founded the company CD Baby, I think, back in the 90s or something.

And he wrote a great book called anything you want.

It's a little short book.

And one of the principles that he lives by, he basically says that if something is not a heck yes, then it is a heck no.

He uses profanity with that and you know, I'm sort of taming it down a little bit.

But he basically says if you are not super excited about something, then it should be an automatic no.

And I've tried to follow that principle with the things that I commit to.

If something doesn't really excite me, then.

And I'm just kind of like, eh, I could go either way on this then.

More and more as I get older, it's an automatic no for me.

And that's really helped me a lot.

Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where you.

You say yes, I guess I can kind of do this.

But then when you're there, you don't bring the type of energy or presence into the situation to.

To benefit anybody really.

You're just kind of there as like a standby.

Like you're just there instead of being someone that wants to be there and enjoying.

That's right.

Knowing yourself is definitely the best way to avoid situations where you're saying yes to things and not enjoying them because no one enjoys them.

That's right.

And it's hard when you get into this sort of online writing slash entrepreneur slash business space.

The more that you get into it, of course, you know, this because, Kevin, you and I have been involved in this space for a long time.

There are so many podcasts and Facebook groups and masterminds and courses and events.

There's an endless number of things that you can be involved in, and most of them are good, and they will benefit you in some way, but you can't do them all, or you will literally just be in meetings all day, every day, and you'll never get any work done.

So I think one of the most difficult things doing this kind of work is you have to make decisions about where you're going to spend your time, and what kinds of things are you going to spend your time on, and what kind of business are you going to have, and what is going to be your main service or product.

And those are difficult decisions to make, especially if you're not wired as a natural business person.

That can be really challenging.

So that's why, for me, I was really grateful to get into ghostwriting, because it was something very straightforward and very.

To me, it was simple in the idea of, I write books for people.

I do some other stuff, too, but that's my main bread and butter.

And to me, that's very simple to understand and explain, and it's really straightforward, you know, as opposed to other kinds of things you can do which are more complex or they're harder to explain.

I'm just a very, very simple guy, and I like the idea of I write books for people, make a decent living doing this.

It's very easy to explain, and it has a hav.

It has a high value to it.

So for me, this.

The more you can simplify your life and get rid of the extraneous stuff that you don't really need, I think the happier you're going to be.

Yeah.

Can you talk a little bit about ghost writing, how you can adapt to the person you're ghostwriting for and how that process works for you specifically?

Yeah, of course.

So the first thing that I do whenever I sit down with a prospective client is we have a conversation about what their goals are for the book, what their dreams are, and what do they want to accomplish in their life or their business, and how does a book contribute to that.

So I never, ever start out by talking about, here's how long the book is.

You know, here's the word count, here's the this or the that.

We.

We do get into all that stuff.

But I first want to know, why do you want to write a book?

And what is this book going to help you accomplish in your life or your business.

I have to be really, really crystal clear on that because if I'm not, then I don't know how to position the book.

So the worst thing that I can do for somebody is write a great book, but it's the wrong book for them.

And there are a lot of people out there who write books or they hire somebody to write a book for them and the book can be great, but the book is taking their life or their direction into business that they don't really want to go.

You know, if your business is abc, but you feel like maybe you should have a book about XYZ and you write a and you hire me to write a book on xyz, but that's not what you really want, then I've actually added a whole level of misery to your life because now you have this book on XYZ topic that you've got to invest resources into and time and energy and marketing and stuff when that's actually going to make you really unhappy.

Because now you have this thing that you've got to invest all these resources into when that's not really what you want to do.

So that's why many times just in the ghost writing process, when we really dig into it, the book that they thought that they wanted to write, we end up changing it somewhat and it ends up being a little bit of a different thing.

Not always a radically different thing, but something that's a little different.

Because I want to make sure that, hey, if we're going to do this project, this is going to further your goals in whatever way that that is.

So, so that's the first thing that we do.

And then throughout the process of just working on the book, I listen for things that are important to them and stories that are compelling.

And I really pay attention to how they communicate because I want the book to sound like them.

And there's a whole process I go through with that.

So I just try to be a really good listener and to be there to serve their goals for the book.

And sometimes that's a very straightforward business goal.

Sometimes it's not a business goal at all.

I just finished a book for somebody who they wanted to tell their story.

They're a person of faith and they literally, the reason they wrote the book is because they felt like God told them to write this book and to tell their story.

They don't have any metrics, money wise or any business goals attached to it.

They were just being obedient to what they felt called to do.

And we've tried to really honor that process in this book.

So that's why it's important to get clear on what the person wants from the book because then that kind of determines everything else.

So I feel like that was kind of a convoluted answer, but those are just a few thoughts on that.

I think it's one of the most important things as a small business owner or solopreneur that you understand what you're trying to accomplish for the people you're working with.

Otherwise, what's the purpose of it?

You can have your idea of what you want to do, but one of the things that's best in these types of situations is to make it a collaborative effort.

So you have the back and forth, you have strong communication and both sides are clear on exactly what needs to get done.

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.

Clarity is really, really important in the ghostwriting process.

That's why, in fact, before I even write a word of the book, I prepare this whole elaborate document for the client.

Now this is, this is a course after they have signed, you know, I don't do all this work and without knowing if they're actually going to sign.

So this is a document very similar to what I would prepare for a publisher if I were pitching a book to them.

It's not quite as in depth as a full book proposal, but it's kind of like that, where we get really clear on here's what the author wants from the book, here's what the reader wants from the book, here's a super detailed book outline, here are some competing titles, you know, because your book is going to set somewhere in a bookstore.

So what are the other books that are sort of in that same space and how is your book different?

So we go through those kinds of things, including, you know, different levels of audiences.

Here's the primary audience, here's like a secondary, maybe third level audience of people who will be interested in the book.

So we get really clear on those things.

So we know exactly what we're creating.

It's basically like a blueprint for a house.

You know, you would never hire a contractor to come in and try to build a house.

And he would go, well, we don't have any blueprints, but I'm just going to have the guys come and drop off a bunch of two by fours and nails and shingles and we're just going to get started.

No, they've got to have a very detailed and specific plan for how to build that house.

And that's how I Approach the ghostwriting process.

Also, we want to have a very specific plan before I write a word of the book, because that is half the battle is knowing where you're going with a book.

Yeah, I think having a detailed plan is just good advice in general, whether you're working on writing a book or, you know, whatever it is that your project is, because without that, you're just throwing darts at a dartboard, seeing what lands, and then it may or may not work.

So I think having an outline plan of all the things you can do, prioritizing that list, seeing where it fits into where you when, where and when you should be working on it, and kind of just being clear on your objectives or what every business owner needs to have in their business in order for it to run in the most efficient way.

Now, I will also add, though, and this is going to sound like I'm contradicting myself, but almost every single time that I work on a book for somebody, the book changes in the process of the book coming together.

And that's because whenever a book outline is one thing, but whenever a client sees an actual draft of a couple chapters or of the whole book, if it's a short book, then a lot of times they'll see it and go, oh, that's different than what I envisioned.

Or, okay, now that I.

In fact, I had a client tell me, literally earlier today, they said, you know, this may change a little bit once I see how the book is actually coming together.

Because the process of seeing a draft of a book is going to just by definition, bring up other ideas and stories.

And that's how the creative process works.

And so I always try to help beginning ghostwriters understand that you've got to hold loosely to your plans with this a little bit and just realize that a book is very personal to somebody.

And if you can't accept constructive criticism as a writer, then you definitely do not need to be doing any kind of client work because they're going to constructively criticize your work.

Sometimes they're going to unconstructively criticize your work.

And if you don't have a thick skin to handle that, then you're going to have a really hard time with ghostwriting because it's, you know, you are writing a book for that person, and people have all kinds of emotional responses to books, just like they do with music or other kinds of art.

And so you.

A huge part of, I think, being successful in this type of work is you have to be able to produce the work At a high level.

But you also have to know how to manage the emotional side of a client relationship and to lead that client in the direction you want them to go.

But also serving them, like that's a really tricky thing.

So you, you have to have a lot of empathy.

I think you've got to be able to be intuitive about how people are responding emotionally to something and, and to know they're comfortable.

They're not comfortable.

You know, I think half of ghostwriting is listening to people and picking up on the things that they don't say in addition to the things that they do say.

And that's.

I don't know how to teach somebody that.

That's.

I think you kind of either have that or you don't.

Yeah, I think empathy in any situation is good to have, but especially when you're doing any sort of client work.

It's just, you need to understand their situation and what they're trying to accomplish.

And you can't let your ego get in the way of what it is that you think is right.

You have to kind of be adaptable and be able to make this a living document.

Every document is pretty much a living document.

Nothing is sentenced to them.

And you have to be able to both be adaptable, but also when you do have your own opinions, you can make them known, but that doesn't mean you need to push it onto the person until they accept it.

It's like you just tell them you have a discussion about it and see if they want to make any changes or not.

That's right.

I always tell clients, I mean, they get so sick of me saying this, but I tell them this over and over again, that I'm not emotionally attached to this book.

This is your book.

I'm here to serve your goals for it.

And so if you don't like something, you know, the best thing you can do for me is tell me what you like and you don't like.

Because I don't want to write this whole book and then discover, well, I don't really like this, but I didn't want to hurt his feelings.

I'm like, oh my gosh, that's the worst thing you could do to me is hold back what you really think.

I need to know what you think.

You're not going to hurt my feelings unless you tell me my cat's ugly or something or whatever.

So you've got to have a thick skin with this and be very servant oriented.

But here's the thing, though, and I try to help other Writers understand this too, is that a lot of writers think that doing client work is kind of this lower form of their creative impulse where, you know, they have this thought process that's like, well, I really want to write my own stuff and do my own novels and I want to build my own business, but I've got to do this client work that's all drudgery.

And I don't really want to be writing for these people.

They're doing a business book on this or that, and they sort of look at this as a placeholder until they can build up their side thing, which is what they really want to do.

But the.

In my opinion, I think, you know, it's.

It's like that saying, the obstacle is the way.

Ryan Holiday has a great book titled that.

I think it comes from Marcus Aurelius, stoic philosopher originally, and that is exactly the way that I feel about doing client work, is that if you want to become a better writer, if you want to be a faster writer, if you want to increase your business skills, doing client work is the best way to do all those things way faster than you're ever going to do just working on your own stuff.

So it's kind of like, okay, that obstacle that you feel like is there, that's quote, unquote, preventing you from doing the.

The more important creative work.

No, that is the way forward that's going to help you be much more creative and much faster and more successful is when you do client work.

I'm not.

I'm not saying you have to do client work exclusively forever, but in my mind, that is the pathway to becoming faster and better as a writer for.

A lot of people.

Yeah, you can either let it get you down.

Like you were saying, people don't want to accept it, but you can also use it as a way to make yourself better.

Because when you're working with a client, you get constant feedback and you have different ways to write and you learn how to adapt different things.

So it's right.

Use it as a learning opportunity to figure out what could eventually work in your best style.

Because when you're writing by yourself, your feedback is going to come either through, like beta readers, if you have the fortune to have those people, or through a publisher which is only going to wait to see when you have a draft of it.

So your feedback loop is very long versus if you're working with somebody constantly or multiple people constantly.

You're constantly getting feedback to see how you can improve.

Yeah, there have been a couple of clients I'VE worked with in the past year, and this isn't always the case, but feel very fortunate that a few clients I've had the opportunity to work with, they're really wealthy business leaders.

And, you know, these are guys who are very accomplished in their industry.

They're at the top of their game.

They're not celebrities, so to speak, but.

But they're really well known in their industry and their.

They've achieved this really high level of success.

So in ghost writing their books, I get to spend hours and hours with these guys talking about the intimate details of their business and their success.

I mean, if you were going to go out and seek out a coach like that, you would just pay exorbitant amounts of money or you just wouldn't be able to access them in the first place, potentially.

But when you're working on somebody's book, you get to spend a lot of time with them and you get a really intimate view inside their head and their thinking process.

And to me, that's.

I mean, that's really valuable.

Like, for example, there's one client that I did a short book for him last year, and then he actually was on my podcast a few months ago, and I didn't mention that he was a client because he doesn't really tell people that he used a ghostwriter, which is totally fine.

But he mentioned something in that podcast interview that I have.

I thought about what he said.

This one little principle.

I've thought about that more than almost anything else the last six months in terms of just like, business stuff.

I've tried to put that principle into practice, and it's made a big difference in my life.

But I would not have had him on my show or been able to learn from him if I wasn't his ghostwriter.

So I think that's why I'm such a big advocate of writers considering ghostwriting as a great career option, because there's so many benefits to it.

I need to know what this lesson that you learned was.

Well, he talked about this lesson called closing the loop.

And it was because I asked him a question.

I said, you know, it's interesting, as I have talked to people who are highly successful, most of them respond to emails quickly and they make decisions about things quickly.

Whereas a lot of people who I would consider mid tier, I know that sounds judgmental, but I'm just putting a label on it.

People who I know who, they have a business, but they're maybe not super successful a lot of times, they take a long time to respond to Emails or they just never respond at all.

And I said, that seems to be the opposite of what it should be.

Because you would think that people who are really successful in their business, maybe they have a big company, you would think that they would be so busy that they would take a long time to respond to emails.

And he said, no, it's the opposite.

Because the thing that makes you really successful, one of the things is that you close the loop on things fast.

You make decisions fast.

You don't let emails sit in your inbox for weeks.

You answer things fast.

And I have noticed that most of those people, whenever they respond to emails, they're very short and very terse.

They don't take paragraphs to explain things.

Instead, if they want to talk to you, they'll just hop on a quick call.

And I put those pieces together in my mind and I thought, oh, my gosh, he's absolutely right.

So he mentioned this principle of closing the loop, which basically means don't.

Don't let a bunch of things go undone.

Take care of those little things that are taking up space in your brain, make decisions fast, take care of them, and move on to the next thing.

And that.

That has been really, really transformative for me.

I.

I wish that I would have done a better job putting them into practice in my life, but I'm working on it.

And that's.

That's been so immensely helpful because when you take care of those little things, then you feel like, oh, wow, now I don't have these 18 little tasks that are.

That are undone and I go to bed and I'm stressing about them.

You just do them fast and you move on to the next thing.

So anyway, that's what the principle was.

Oh, that's very cool.

Because when you have a long list of tasks like that, you usually just give up before you even start.

You know, there's just so much to do.

That's why I think a lot of people take time to respond.

I have to respond to all these people because they piled up right into this list of people.

And it's like, oh, my gosh, I don't have the time to do it.

But I think you can make time to do really anything, especially if it's just responding to a message.

And especially if you're working with a client like you are, it's very critical for you to be in constant communication.

Or there's an alternative is that you let them know what your.

How you operate in your boundaries.

So you have to have one of.

The two or you always have the option of just not responding to people.

I mean, that is an option.

So I had somebody.

I'm not gonna.

I guess I would call them a friend.

I suppose I would.

It's a connection.

We're not really friends, so to speak.

Somebody that I've met.

I met in person at a conference.

I guess I would say that we're friends, kind of.

Anyway, it's like an online business friend.

You've met somebody, had a couple of chats with them, but you don't talk to them all the time.

Anyway, it had been three or four years since I talked to them, I think, and they had a book launch, and they had their assistant reach out to me three or four weeks ago and said, hey, so and so is coming out with a book.

We would love for you to mention the book in your email newsletter or help promote it if you'd be willing to, you know, could we count on you to help support this book launch?

And that email kind of agitated me because I thought, wow, this person doesn't think enough of our friendship to even reach out personally.

They have their assistant reach out to me, which I took as a little bit of an insult.

I'm not trying to be a prima donna, but I thought, man, I was a person who kind of.

I had connected them with a couple of book agents.

And so I'm not saying I was responsible for getting them a book deal with a publisher, but I did play a role in that.

And I felt like then for them to just not even bother to reach out to me personally to ask for help with their book promotion.

And I would have done it if they would have reached out personally, but because their, like, book assistant reached out or something, I just completely ignored.

And she emailed a couple more times, but I just ignored it.

And as I tell this story, it probably sounds like I'm being petty, but it's the idea of, you know, I had invested some energy into this relationship, but they.

They didn't value our relationship enough to even make a personal connection.

You know, like, the first thing I heard from them in two or three years was, hey, can you help me with my XYZ thing?

And so you do have the option sometimes of just not responding.

Like, you don't owe everybody a response necessarily if you don't feel like a response is warranted.

So that is an option people have.

That's true.

It goes back to this, like, hell yes or hell no.

If it's not a hell yes, it's a no.

And in this particular case, since you felt like you did have a personal enough experience with this person that you felt kind of slighted by them, essentially.

Yeah.

And I think, gosh, it sounds like I'm being judgmental here.

I don't mean to be, but I think an emotionally aware person would pay attention to that and go, hmm, my assistant's reached out to him a couple times.

Why hasn't he responded?

And, you know, if she reaches out, then I'll, I'll respond, but until then, I just won't.

So, you know, we always do have that option.

You know, we don't owe anybody our time and our energy.

So you do have the choice of the people that you're going to invest time and energy into, especially the more people that you connect with over time.

And so I think that the more that you.

That your business grows, you have to make those choices about where you're going to put that energy and time.

Yeah.

Because ultimately it's about how you feel for the most part, unless you're needing to maintain this relationship.

So say you wanted to keep this relationship going, but you did feel like you deserved, like a personal invite to do this.

It's something that you could say, oh, I talked to your assistant, but I was hoping that you could.

Right.

We could talk about your lot, you know.

Yeah.

And I would have been happy to chat about it had they reached out personally, but I don't know.

You know, Mark Cuban is famous for answering all his own emails.

Like, you can email Mark Cuban today.

He'll probably, unless you say something dumb, you know, he'll probably respond back if you send some kind of legitimate message.

He doesn't have an assistant who answers his email.

So I don't know.

There's this part of me, I'm just kind of old school, I guess, in that way where, you know, don't have your assistant reach out to people like the relationship.

And the communication part of business is really, really important.

And there's this whole industry of, you know, people doing podcast reach outs and, you know, I'm going to hire this company to then go out and connect with all my friends and land me podcast guest gigs when I don't think that's something that should be outsourced to a company.

I think if you have a relationship with somebody, take 10 seconds and send an email to that person and see if you can be a guest on their show or something.

You know, I just feel like it's so easy to outsource those things today that we're starting to outsource a lot of things that shouldn't be outsourced.

And, you know, with my apologies to anybody listening who owns those kind of companies.

I mean, it is useful for some people who are doing like the one to many.

But if you're, like you said, working with somebody that you actually know, it doesn't feel good.

Right.

What I tell people when I get those emails, and I get those emails frequently from people.

If it's actually a guest that I would be interested in having on, I will.

And I know this irritates the people at the podcast companies.

I will say, hey, I think this might be an interesting guest, but I typically only have people on my show who I know personally.

So have your client reach out to me personally and connect on social media.

Let me get to know them a bit.

And, you know, when the time is right, then I'll.

I may extend an invitation for them to be a guest.

Well, they never want to do that ever, because it's too much trouble.

So that tells me right there, they don't have an interest in.

All they want to do is just be on somebody's show.

They don't have an interest in establishing an actual relationship.

So I'm sure I sound probably like a curmudgeon about this, but I think, you know, this is how business relationships get formed, is investing time and energy into it, not trying to outsource it to some random company.

Yeah, I think, I mean, it ultimately depends on the person who is hiring this company to make the decision if that's something they're fine with.

Yeah, that is a strategy.

It's a legitimate strategy.

But some people like yourself aren't willing to go that way.

Yeah, I just, I feel like, hey, if somebody wants to.

If you want to have a podcast conversation, then shoot me an email personally and then let's chat.

But that's just kind of me.

Everybody has their own strategy for doing these things.

Cool.

I do have some questions to wrap up.

I know you have to head out soon, so.

Yes.

Yeah, let's roll.

What do you think makes a creative business stand out?

Well, I would say just what we're talking about.

I think it's the personal connection.

There are a lot of people with creative businesses of various kinds, but I can.

I feel like I can say with a lot of confidence that something that automatically makes somebody stand out is doing the things that most other people don't want to take the time to do, which would be something like reaching out to somebody personally for a podcast appearance or sending a handwritten Note in the mail, or sending a gift in the mail, or reviewing somebody's podcast or book and then posting that on social media to support that person.

It's those little things that they don't really take up that much time, but it's a personal touch and a personal connection.

Those things, I think are an immediate way to stand out.

Especially the handwritten note thing.

Like, you know, we're all basically like five year olds.

We, we still love to get stuff in the mail.

And whenever you send somebody a book or a card in the mail to say thanks or just randomly, that really, really stands out that I.

And I can tell you I've sent a lot of stuff in the mail over the years and it really does make a huge difference.

It really, really does.

So if I can encourage anybody to do one thing, it would be just send stuff in the mail.

It doesn't cost that much, but it makes a massive difference.

That's really interesting because my wife and I are actually running an Etsy shop where we sell like creepy dolls.

So we buy old dolls at thrift stores and we upcycle them and with each of those packages we write a handwritten note.

That's cool.

Some of the reviews that we've gotten back from that are like, oh, I really love the packaging and the handwritten note.

Which means people will appreciate those little small touches.

It doesn't take more than five minutes to write a handwritten note, but people will notice it.

Yeah, that's really cool.

Love that.

Do you know anyone personally who runs a standout creative business and what do they do and how did they stand out?

Yeah, I would say one of the people that I.

That I work with closely.

Her name is Honore Korder.

I am the ghostwriter for many of the projects that she publishes for clients.

She does high end, I guess I would call them bespoke book publishing services where somebody comes to her and they want a custom book that is really well written.

She has a lot of marketing, marketing stuff for it in terms of a great plan for that person to monetize their book and income streams.

So she has an immensely.

She has an incredible standout business because she does all the stuff that I've mentioned, you know, handwritten notes, highly personalized service, a high level of excellence.

So I would encourage everybody to go check out her stuff.

She also has a lot of her own books and her website is honoraycorder.com and the way you spell her first name is H O N O R.

So honor, then E, E and quarter C O R d e r autumnrecorder.com make sure and check it out.

There's a lot of good stuff there.

Awesome.

What are some books, podcasts, or documentaries or tools that have helped guide you on your journey?

Okay, I actually made a list here because you sent these questions in advance.

As far as podcast, here's a couple that I really like.

I love James Altucher's podcast.

He's a brilliant thinker.

I love his stuff.

And I love a podcast called My First Million, which is these two guys interview people about how they made their first million, literally.

And it's about general business stuff.

I also really like.

This is going to feel like it's coming out of left field.

I like Bill Maher's podcast.

You know, he has real time with Bill Maher on hbo, but he has a podcast called Club Random where he just interviews celebrities.

And I love that show because he kind of reminds me of Howard Stern a little bit in that I think he's actually a great conversationalist and people will share stuff on his podcast that they wouldn't share other places.

And to me that's important because I love learning from other people who are different than me.

And I think the conversations he has on his show are really, really fascinating.

You know, with musicians, celebrities, actors, directors, different people like that.

So I love those.

In terms of books, I mentioned the book Anything youg Want by Derek Sivers.

I think that's a great one.

And a book that your audience might enjoy and you might enjoy.

Kevin is one I wrote with a client that came out earlier this year.

It's called the Business Artist.

And it's all about how creative people can navigate our new world of technology and AI and all those kinds of things in a.

In a heavy, data driven world.

How can creative people navigate all those kinds of things?

It's a really, really great book if I do say so myself.

I'm going to plug one of my client books here.

And then I've also been reading a lot of stuff by this copywriter named Ben Settle.

His last name is Settle S E T T L E.

And he does a lot of stuff on copywriting and business.

And he's got this amazing daily email that he sends out and you can connect with him by going to BenSettle.com he's not paying me to promote that or anything, but I just really, really like his stuff.

It's good.

So those are just a handful of things.

Nice.

And what is one piece of advice that you would give to someone who wants to make their business stand out.

Other than, I guess, the personal touch, like maybe something that you do yourself.

I would say, in addition to the, you know, the personal touch things that we were talking about, I would say just keep pressing on and know that you can figure it out.

Because business can be really complicated.

And especially when you get into this online space of, okay, you know, blogging or podcasting or doing client work and books and other kinds of things.

There's a million things that you can do to monetize what you're doing.

And you're always hitting up against roadblocks where you have to make decisions about things.

You know, every day is making dozens of decisions about.

Who are you going to connect with, what kind of content are you going to put out there?

How are you going to monetize your business?

What social media sites are you going to post on and engage with?

There's all these decisions that you have to make.

And I think if you can just get really good at just making decisions and then following through with things, that, to me is half the battle of having a business like this is just.

It's knowing that you don't always have all the answers.

But I'm going to decide something and I'm going to stick with it.

I'll change if I need to change, but I'm going to figure this out and I'm going to keep working on it until I figure this out, and then I'm going to keep moving forward.

Because every single day is an opportunity to get distracted or confused or frustrated by something.

There's always something.

When you run a business, there's always something to discourage you or frustrate you.

But I think the people who are successful at this, long term, you just have to know you're good enough and you're smart enough.

It's like that Stuart Smalley thing from Saturday Night live in the 80s where Al Franken had this character he played called Stuart Smalley, and he's like, I'm good enough and I'm smart enough, and doggone up, people like me, some of the older listeners will get the reference to that.

But I do think there's an element to that that's true where, hey, I am good enough to do this.

I am smart enough, and I'm going to figure this out and I'm going to stick with it until I do.

So then that would be my encouragement for business owners.

One last thing, this is something I'm bringing back as well, is just one challenge, actionable thing that people who are listening to this can do and maybe let them know where they can find you so that that way they can follow up with you and say that they did it.

Sure.

I would say go to maybe check out my website, which is the Profitable writer dot com.

So I run a membership community for writers, and these are specifically for writers who want to grow their business and take what they're doing to the next level.

And I realize that not everybody listening to this wants to build a quote unquote writing business.

So I would say check that out, and very, very soon I'm going to have a free download called the Profitable Writer Pathway that teaches people how to build a writing business from scratch.

And so I would say check that out.

And even if somebody is not primarily a writer, I think that they will still really benefit from that, because a lot of the things that I teach writers to do will benefit people in any kind of creative business.

Things like networking and having a daily habit and figuring out and improving your business systems.

You know, those kinds of things.

So, yeah, I would say check it out.

Yeah, I think the writing can benefit really, anybody who's trying to run a business, because you need to find a way to communicate with people.

So either writing or figuring out how to do audio or something along those lines is definitely an important thing.

That's right.

Yeah.

Totally agree.

Well, Kent, it's been awesome to talk to you again, as I knew it would be, basically.

Yeah, thanks, Kevin.

I appreciate the chance to come on the show again and have this chat.

It's been great.

All right.

Thanks for coming on.

Yeah, totally.

My pleasure.

All right, bye.