The conversation between Nkechi Nwafor-Robinson and Debra Christmas unfolds a powerful narrative centered around empowerment, resilience, and the journey of self-discovery. Debra, a seasoned leader in technology, shares her life experiences that shaped her into a relentless advocate for diversity and inclusion. From her early days of navigating her identity as an adopted child to her dynamic career spanning decades, she reveals the pivotal moments that fueled her passion for changing the corporate landscape for women and minorities. The episode delves deep into the concept of empowerment and emphasizes the importance of choosing joy and positivity in the face of adversity. Debra's story is not just about her accomplishments; it's about her commitment to uplifting others, particularly young women in tech, and creating a legacy of inspiration.

The dialogue takes a reflective turn as they discuss the idea of imposter syndrome and its impact on women in leadership roles. Debra challenges the notion of being an imposter, encouraging listeners to recognize their strengths and the value they bring to their environments. In fact, they both provocatively express that the term should be banned altogether and offer up a more empowering perspective.

With anecdotes of her own encounters in predominantly male spaces, Debra dismantles the barriers that often hinder women from asserting their place in tech and leadership. Her message is clear: confidence stems from competence, and it's crucial to trust oneself while navigating the complexities of corporate culture.

The episode is infused with warmth and humor as Debra and Nkechi explore their shared experiences, making it relatable and enlightening for anyone seeking motivation in their personal or professional lives.

Takeaways:

• Empowered individuals have the responsibility to uplift and empower those around them.
• Finding joy is a daily choice, and it can set a positive tone for the day ahead.
• Women must change the narrative around their capabilities, especially in male-dominated fields.
• The journey of self-discovery often reveals our true strengths and potential.
• Character and values are equally important as skills in maintaining leadership positions.
• The importance of reframing language to eliminate negative labels like 'imposter syndrome'.

If this episode resonates with you, then remember... SUBSCRIBE • 5-Star Rate • COMMENT • SHARE this Podcast!! 💚❤️🙌🏾🙏🏾

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Great day, amazing human.

Welcome to the Empowered in My Skin podcast where our mission is to help 1 billion people in this world think in more empowering ways.

Empowered humans empower humans.

So you are in the right spot to become a lead domino for empowerment today.

My name is Ingke Chi.

I'm not only your host, but I am a vibrant optimist, obsessive success to bring you empowering content.

With each episode we will be bringing you content alternating between longer episodes with featured guests and shorter episodes called Empowering Bites where I'll be joined by my co host, Gabby Mamone.

So if you're ready, let the show begin.

Great day, amazing humans.

Yes.

Welcome to the next episode of Empowered My skin, the podcast.

I am so, so excited.

And this, this, this connection that I have with our next guest and youtubers you can already see this amazing human for those listening really just was quick and, and I just, I'm so delighted that it was so quick that we're actually here in conversation because her mind just already blew me away from, from really just our first connection.

And so she is a powerhouse in technology and leadership space with a remarkable career spanning over four decades.

You could not tell by looking at her for sure.

So we're talking about executive, a dynamic author, a relentless advocate for diversity and inclusion.

Like mic drop on the stage on a panel discussion when she gets into, when she gets in on that conversation.

But she's really dedicated her life to transforming organizations.

In fact, in our B roll, we were just talking about all these young inspiring women that she's had the pleasure of like interviewing for, for her book.

So you gotta check them out.

I know I'm excited to learn to learn more of some of these women, but really just dedicating and advocating for inspiring young coming up, inspiring leaders and empowering women in technology and really helping them to thrive.

And really happy to say that her influence reaches across industries and continents and has guided many senior executives, myself included in strategy execution, leadership development and building high performance teams.

So those are her niches and she is going in and helping the world in a really, really, really meaningful way.

And so now I'm just going to ask all of you to get ready for a really inspiring conversation with someone whose passion for human and really making an impact knows zero bounds.

And so please join me in a gigantic podcast.

Welcome for the amazing, the incomparable, like the most fabulous woman I've met.

Like going to talk to this week, Deborah Christmas.

We need to just get you to introduce us all, I think.

Thank you.

Oh My gosh.

Yeah.

Probably the most enthusiastic introduction I've ever had.

But I.

You.

Well, look, the B roll.

B roll fed it, so.

But no, really, really delighted that we were able to work this out so quickly.

And I thank you, really, for saying yes.

I think there was, like, zero hesitation.

When I was like, on LinkedIn and you sent me that message, I was like, yo, dude, right?

I gotta get you on.

So, as a starting question, can you share with myself and all the listeners what's the most empowering thought that you've had of the day so far?

I choose joy.

Every single day.

I saw.

I saw a blog post that you did where.

It's a choice.

It's a choice.

Yeah.

Because crazy stuff happens out there every single day.

Yeah.

And I'm like, yeah.

Nope.

And you do that in the morning.

I do it in the morning.

I wake up happy.

Yeah.

I love the stillness of the morning.

I really do.

I used to, you know, the house was still.

The house was quiet.

And I would, you know, I was an early riser.

I would get up at, you know, 5:36.

So those are the days when I didn't need so much sleep.

And I just like the stillness to, you know, to reflect, to read music.

I find now I don't do that anymore.

That's way too late.

And.

But the morning, I love the stillness of the morning.

So it's.

Of course, at 5am it is pitch black outside and, you know, make your tea, sit in the kitchen, think about things.

It's always different.

Every day it's either I could be still listening to a podcast that I fell asleep to, so I'm rewinding and I'm going back.

Or an audio book.

I was listening to Gary Chapman, Dr.

Gary Chapman, yesterday, the five love languages.

And so that was sort of playing and so that.

It depends.

And then some mornings it's writing.

Mm.

I.

But I always try for it to be something very meaningful to me.

Yes.

Yeah.

You know, before we jump into the million emails and all the stuff that, you know, takes you away to your workday.

So it's a good start to the day.

So in writing, are you getting ready for another book or.

I have one more.

There's another book.

Okay.

It's supposed to be published this year.

I don't know if you knew Fawn Annan, who was this president and CEO of IT World Canada for a few decades and we were writing a book to.

Was supposed to be published called Get Smarter Faster, which is taking.

Between the two of us, I think we had 95 years of experience, something like that.

Mom was a little bit older than me, and we just thought we just got to teach these gals earlier what the rules are, how to go out there, especially into the corporate world.

But she was a serial entrepreneur and I was a corporate warrior.

So it was a fascinating thing to come together.

And we lost Fawn suddenly.

Cancer just took her, suddenly.

So I promised her.

I've never made a death threat in my life ever.

But I made it to her.

I was trying to do it this year, but I just.

I couldn't get.

You know, you're still sort of navigating that afterwards to write.

You have to be in a certain space to write.

I'm ready because I need to do this for her and get this out there.

This is great.

One more.

This is great.

At least one more.

At least one more novels and stuff like that.

You know, I said I'd like to write a family drama novel, stuff like that, sort of based on life, but everybody would have to be gone first, in trouble.

You know, I'd be in trouble if I wrote that family drama.

But you gotta wait.

You gotta wait for a few bodies to be like, yeah, just.

But.

So I want to start with the backstory because I truly do believe for anyone that's really doing like some of the deep work that you're doing, there's always.

It comes from somewhere.

Comes from something.

And so can you give us a glimpse into, you know, the.

I'm going to say that maybe the pivotal moments, because I know there's some.

Yeah, the pivotal moments that you believe have really brought you to where you're on today.

Oh, boy.

Well, I was born and raised second generation in Montreal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And my grandparents came from Barbados to.

You know, they were all came to build the railroad, literally.

They became porters on the railroad.

They went from the tracks, became porters.

And my parents and.

And myself were born there.

But I was born out of wedlock was the term that was used.

Terrible term, actually, because kind of when you even think of wedlock, what do you mean?

Locked in, wedding?

What?

Like, where did that term even come from?

But I can remember the first defining moment was finding out I was adopted because, you know, you go to school and that happened at 10 with my two sisters together, by the way.

So that was not fun when you.

Found out you were 10 or when you.

I was 10, okay.

I, you know, I suspected something.

I was raised by my birth father's sister and her husband that had adopted me, like, as a baby, because my father was only 19 years old, you know, when I was born.

And I was really the parent in that relationship.

Everybody knows that I was parent.

My father was just.

He was not equipped to be a father.

But he.

The.

The sun rose and set on his head to me, and vice versa.

There's on there.

But I knew, you know, you're a kid.

Nobody used those terms.

But I didn't look like my sisters.

And I was constantly in school.

Like, adult people said that to me.

Counselors, teachers.

You don't look anything like them.

Like, when I think about it, it's a stupid thing for an adult to say.

Trials, like, really, you know, And I don't think anybody would say it today, but I can tell you, I can remember when, you know, we had come back from Newport, Rhode island, where my father's sister lives, had lived for decades.

And we were in the kitchen, you know, emptying the cooler.

You know, emptying the cooler and all that.

Because you took.

You didn't.

There was no McDonald's that you were stopping at on the side of the road, although I think McDonald's existed.

But we had, you know, sandwiches and stuff.

You know, it wasn't fast food kind of stuff.

And we're in the kitchen, emptying the kitchen, the cooler, washing all dishes, all of that kind of stuff.

And we not, you know, you're summing.

A warm summer day in August, soap suds everywhere.

We knock water down, which waters all over the counter.

So we pull out the canisters and the bread box, and there was an envelope that was behind that.

It was our birth certificates.

Oh, wow.

We opened the birth certificates up.

And I'm here because I'm the oldest, reading, you know, Cheryl Latina, Gloria Duran.

You know, parents Shirley Elaine, blah blah, father Marcus Wilfred, blah blah Mars, Deborah Veronica, father Ronald Everton Williams.

Mother, Laura Elizabeth Moritz.

What?

You know, you're looking at a piece of paper and, you know, kids know when they have stumbled onto something that they stumbled onto, shoved those things back in that envelope so fast, threw it back behind the breadbox, ran outside.

And, you know, we're standing there in the backyard looking at each other.

4, 7, and 10.

I'm the oldest, knowing we had discovered a secret, that we discovered a secret.

And my first thought was, who the heck is Laura Elizabeth Morris?

Because I Knew who Ronald was.

I knew, you know, used to call him Uncle Ronnie.

But, you know, he would whisper, I'm not kidding.

And he should not have.

I'm your father.

Would whisper in my ear, should not have done that.

But that was the first moment, because it was the first moment where I could consciously thought, which led down a whole other path for life.

You better be perfect or they might send you back to whoever that is.

I remember that conscious thought at that young age.

And literally, I was a pretty good child anyway.

I was the oldest.

I had a lot of responsibility.

Became Ms.

Goody Two Shoes, much to the chagrin of my siblings, because now this bar was this high.

All my sisters just say, oh, my God, we go into school after you.

And they're like, oh, you're getting sister.

And they're like, you know, you did good in school.

You just became, you know, you were the narrator at the church play.

Like you did it.

You became.

They had to kick me out of Girl Guides.

All right?

They had a special pin of five years made for.

Because I wouldn't get out.

My life became accomplishment driven.

Okay.

And I didn't realize.

And this is.

This, this will blow your mind.

I didn't realize till probably three years ago that that was such an important value for you.

For me, I didn't think, you know, we all think of the values that we live by, the values and principles that we live by.

And I had interviewed Dr.

Laura Igle, her name, and she's written a book called Values First.

So I had to read the book before I interviewed the woman.

And that was shocking to me because the exercise she put through accomplishment was at the top of the list.

And I was like, wow, okay, that explains a lot.

That's three years ago.

I'm 67 years old.

What?

Yeah, yeah, that was three years ago.

And I.

To come to that realization that that was so important.

It explained so much with regards to career trajectory, working, pivotal, pivotal life moment of the 10 year old and the 65 year old.

But all through those 55 years in there, it was about achievement.

Like, achievement was very important to my parents, you know, for, you know, coming from a family of immigrant grandparents, everything was about education and achievement.

Everything, everything.

That was the most important thing.

And I was the first to graduate from university in my family.

And I don't think my parents could have been any prouder.

Like, when you see your parents practically bawling.

Yeah.

Over a piece of paper.

Yes, yes, yes.

I was like, wow, okay, this is really a big deal.

Yes, yes.

Y.

Yes.

Yes.

You know that there, you know, you're doing something.

Yeah, yeah.

So that was probably the biggest, you know, from a lifetime because you then go on a little bit of this journey as well.

Who am I?

Who am I?

You know, it's, it's.

It can.

It can.

It had its moments.

Yeah.

Where you sort of, you know, try to find your identity in.

Luckily, raised by my own family, like my maternal grandmother, you know, my blood aunt and, you know, luckily so that I was raised in my family.

But I always stood on the periphery over here.

Yeah.

You know, so it was a big.

That was a big life moment.

Wow.

Huh?

That's incredible.

That's incredible.

Propels you to do a lot of things.

Yes, yes, yes.

And so then your story does continue.

Right.

Because then eventually you meet your birth mother.

No, never met her.

Oh, you never did.

Okay.

They found me.

So, you know, you live your life raised in this wonderful family.

You know, growing in Montreal was just a blast.

Like, it was just a wonderful.

And we were a big family.

The family was a large extended family, like second to, I think, the Cleveland family.

We were the largest family in the school.

Wow.

Like 12 of us.

And that's a wonderful experience.

Going to school with your cousins.

We were all like a year apart, so to speak.

You know, all each sibling, you know, had five children or four children or whatever.

So we all went to the same school.

And growing up, you know, at the Union United, the black church in Montreal, my grandparents were, you know, some of the founding members.

And the Corsol Negro Community center and taking TAP about, like the community was a wonderful thing.

You know, you really felt a sense of community.

But then you went to an all white school.

You know, I went to Lachine.

Lachine High School in Claire.

Yes.

When we all walked in, I'm sure they thought it was a Black Panthers at the time.

At the time, these people had horses.

Okay.

They took horseback riding and so they own the horse.

We'd have to go to a fair to see a horse.

They took writing lessons.

Because there was no high school other than a Catholic high school in Villas.

We lived in Villasal at the time, so we had to be bus to Lachine.

I'm sure that community didn't know what hit them.

Yeah.

Kind of walked through the door, but thank God we were like a posse that we all sort of, you know, I don't know what I would have done if it was Just me.

Yeah, you're lucky because we.

We had a very different experience.

We grew up in.

And I'm.

I'm behind you a bit.

Right.

I was born in 72 and so we moved to Montreal in 78.

So.

Okay.

Yeah.

And I can't even imagine what it was like in the years preceding that if it was for what we experienced, like all the racism.

Yeah, yeah.

And we moved into a white neighborhood and it's.

We have a small family, you know, so here we were the only.

Yeah, the only.

And we were too, living in, you know, where.

Living in the south for sure.

But a lot of people, we first lived in Bill Mard.

We weren't like, my aunt lived down the street.

My cousin lives around the corner.

Like, we were all sort of close by, but we all kind of went to La Salle together.

So, you know, so you weren't alone because there were so many of us that moved out of the downtown core.

My grandparents had this magnificent home at the corner of Atwater Hill and Selby.

And when they expropriate, they expropriated their property, this beautiful, three story, gorgeous home to build the highway coming through it, like, you know, they brought that highway right through Little Burgundy and wiped out all those black families and all.

Ours were one of them and just beautiful, beautiful home.

So you had to relocate, but we all relocated.

So you weren't by yourself.

And I think that made a huge difference.

Yeah, I was.

When you.

I think when we went to Lachine High and they like, nobody was really going to mess with you because there was a lot of us, I think they were a little bit afraid.

They were a little bit afraid until we had amateur night and we became Diana Ross in the stage.

And they loved us.

And they loved us.

We were spectacular.

From that point on, like the whole dance routine, the splits, the turning around, we were James Brown and Diana.

Only time my parents.

You're gonna laugh at this.

Only time my parents let me wear an afro to school tonight, I had an Angela Davis afro.

That was the one and only time.

That our parents allowed you to have an afro.

This is what the hair needed to look like.

And you know.

Oh, my gosh, isn't it crazy?

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah.

So let's actually talk a little bit about that about like you.

I think in your bio I talked about that.

But one, I'm blown away.

And I mean, I'm not.

Age is nothing.

Because I do believe we all.

Like, there's a great hashtag that said I look my age, right?

So But I am going to say I know some other 67 year olds and it's not about a.

But I would never have even remotely put you in the 60s.

Right.

Like, like it's only really your experience that, you know, sort of says, okay, yeah, she, she has some years.

Yeah, yeah, she has some years.

But let's just talk about the decades that you've had to navigate as being the only.

I have.

I have founded one of the most powerful things I've.

I could have experienced in my life only because of how I've used it to really do the work that I believe God has put me on this earth to do.

And I couldn't do it in the.

I wasn't intended to do it amongst the masses of people that look like me.

I was intended to do it in rooms where I'm.

Yeah.

So let's talk about your journey and, and when you walk into some rooms.

Let me tell you, almost fell off their chair.

Let's talk about that.

Everything they had not to say, what the heck is she doing here?

Let's talk about that.

Yeah, first leadership position was at 22.

So that's very young and.

But a small team and that was fine.

It was a small company.

It was a small company in Ottawa.

They used.

They actually built the first passport readers before.

A big one was moving to Toronto to.

I had.

You know, I said, yes, I know who you are.

Of course I know vice president, a finance and admin.

That looked kind of stupid if I didn't know I never heard your name before.

And he said to me, I'd like you to come and talk to me about running my IT organization.

I literally said to this man, what drugs are you on?

Because you might want to put those down.

Because that's.

I literally.

That's what I said to him.

I said, are you crazy?

It was a system engineer in the field.

And that's only because that's the title they had for me, by the way, as I do.

I wanted to be a criminal attorney.

I didn't get into law school, have no tech degree, no computer science degree.

I have bachelor's of arts degree.

Wanted to be Perry Mason, Matlock, you name it.

That's what I wanted to be.

Okay, dressed up in stilettos and a fabulous outfit and that was me, defense attorney, giving that big speech at the end.

And you know, that was, that literally was the dream from grade eight.

Your vision, vision and fell into technology, didn't get Into Law School.

1978, need to get a job.

I graduated from university, I need to get a job.

So someone pinged me and headhunted me and, and I said, who the heck is Hewlett Packard?

I didn't know who they were.

And they said, I'm not joking.

Because 87 was the promotion.

And anyway, he calls and I said, well, I'll come and talk to you, but I'm not quite sure you know what you're doing, but I'll come to headquarters.

And I said, what are you even thinking about?

I don't know how to do this.

This is, you know, I use it.

We had email and things of that.

Nothing like what we have today, remember?

And, and he said to me, which was someone way ahead of their time, truly.

1987 said, I would like my IT organization to be a service centric, service driven entity.

We use them now for everything, but we weren't using them.

And I said, pioneer.

Ish.

Pioneer.

No, absolutely.

This is a 6 year old white male says to me and I'm like, wow.

He said, well my IT organization is known as IT Resist.

Instead of calling the IT Assist line IT use this.

That's what he said.

We tell them no for everything.

So I said, and why am I, why am I here?

And this man said to me, so this is where you find out.

This is probably my first realization of what you're good at, what you're good at.

And he said, I started asking around the organization to find out who was good with customers, who had great customer service skills, who could engage and connect.

He says, your name keeps coming up.

I want to back up.

So you were already at hp?

Yeah, I was there for four years.

And at that time you were in a technology discipline.

Yeah.

So here's the tech thing.

When I went for the interview, got headhunted in and I said, well what's the job?

System engineer.

What the heck is that?

Yes.

And they said, well we're struggling right now finding people.

Not only finding people, but our competitor was IBM at the time and they had already started to make the shift into strategic account management.

Not just selling the technology, on the magnificence of the tech, but the business value of the tech.

So when HP called and I got this interview.

And I said, well, what are you trying to do?

And they said, well, we're trying to sell this blasphemous moment on my part.

I said, what the heck is that?

I thought, all of them are going to pass out.

And they said, what do you mean?

That was a mini computer.

They actually all got up and took me down the hall to show you what they were so proud.

And I said, don't even bother opening that door.

I'll never touch that thing.

What is it?

And they said, what?

And I said, what?

Why would I talk to somebody about that?

I don't even know how I made it through these interviews.

And they said, well, we're not.

You know, people want to have a different kind of a selling motion.

I said, oh, okay, you.

You want me to be the translator.

You want me to talk with the client, discuss what they're trying to do, and then come back and translate for all you engineers.

That's what you want me to do?

That I can do.

And they actually hired me after 10 interviews.

10.

Wow.

10.

So that's where.

That's where you got in 83.

In 83 years later, four years later, you know, you sit with the client.

What do you want to do?

Yeah.

Okay, guys, here's what you need to build.

This is what they're trying to do.

Can we actually do that?

Yeah.

Oh, okay, good.

Because that's what they want.

And that's what made him.

That's what he had heard.

It was almost the identical process.

I said, if you think this is a good idea, I'm willing to do this.

I still won't go into that computer room because you really don't want me in there.

No one touching anything that's in that room.

But you got people.

You got people around me that know what they're doing.

I can make it work.

We can make it work.

And I would, like, take servers and roll them down the hallway and let salespeople take them out to a client.

Like, the IT people lost their mind.

I'm like, well, we know where he lives.

We got an address.

He's still an employee.

He needs it to do this demo.

You can't be taken.

I said, I didn't unplug a production server.

I went into the training room and took one that we're not using right now.

Off he went.

And they.

I'm not kidding.

When I walked into the first leadership room, me and eight white men that were 15 to 20 years older than me.

I think they thought I was there to serve them coffee or something.

Like, truly, they looked at me.

They all stopped dead in their tracks.

I'm like, hello, gentlemen, I'm your new IT leader.

And I think John knew this was going to be.

I think he enjoyed this quite a bit.

Like, I.

He knew what he was doing.

They did not.

Yeah.

And that was the journey, believe it or not.

I went from that to managing IT organizations from that experience, and I shook that place up.

So at what point did you give up your dream of being like the female matlab?

It's not done yet.

I'm thinking that would be a good thing to do after I retire from corporate life.

But when did.

I mean, more.

So when did you.

So I grew up with.

At 6 years old, my dad put a computer in my hand, so I grew up with that.

Yeah, yeah.

But I started programming really young.

Yeah.

No.

So at what point did you actually embrace that?

I am, I am in tech.

I'm a technology leader.

I may not have come up the programming angle, but, yeah, when I was.

At hp, I think.

And then I was leaving, my husband at the time had a job offer opportunity, so I was going to leave.

And that's what brought me to be a CIO for the municipal space city of Kingston.

And that's, I think, when I realized it was then, because I sat in this room being interviewed, the experience of the five white males that interviewed me was something like 175 years.

It was a ridiculous amount.

Like, I wanted to say, does anybody know how to spell retire?

Like, what the heck?

Like 40, 42 years, 37 years.

And when I answered this one question, I can't believe they hired me.

You know, you get that question.

So what can you do for us, Deborah?

Tell us what you can do for us in our organization.

This was my answer.

How about bring you into the 21st century?

How about that?

That's what I answered.

And they all stood there and I thought, I'm never getting that job.

There's no way.

Really tired.

And that's when I realized.

Because that was the moment that I realized you are built for transformation.

Yeah.

That's what you're built for.

To come in where other people just would be like, are you crazy?

And only one.

Only female, only black female.

Now I know I'm indigenous.

My great grandmother was.

The birth family told me that.

I'm like, wow, that's what I was meant to do.

And I have done it ever Since.

And you drive change in lots of ways, because I knew I was the first black female that they had had any kind of regular contact with.

Like, when you are driving in the city of Kingston and you pull up at a gas station, they say, oh, you're that gal from city hall.

I'm like, really?

Yeah, because you're the only one.

So I'm going back to our conversation that we had at the conference.

Right.

So we were.

We were.

For the listeners.

We were.

We recently were at the Future, which in Canada, for those of you who are watching, is actually the largest gathering of black professional technology technologists or professionals in North America.

And so people come from, you know, I don't know, all around the world, but definitely, like, globally.

Right?

Yeah.

So.

So we met.

We were there and we were talking about the word.

The thing that we will never talk about anymore.

We just don't want to even talk about the island.

Is it the.

Is.

Is that the.

So I'm going to just say it, but the imposter syndrome.

Because we truly don't both believe that there is.

There is nothing imposter about any of us.

Right?

But there are these moments of uncertainty.

There are these.

These, you know, potential moments of self doubt.

And it's really about your choice and what you.

How you fill it and how you sort of rethink about what you're thinking about.

And so as you're talking, I'm sitting here and I'm just marveling and I'm wondering, like, I think about the intersectionality of what shared about accomplishments being such a big value space for you and how that positioned you because you haven't once brought up the word fear, doubt.

Like, it sounds like I didn't even.

Know what that is word meant when I first heard.

I'm like, what are they talking about?

But as you're, as you're.

As they're bringing you into these spaces that are tech spaces that you're not necessarily you feel designed for yet.

Right?

What, what is it?

Like, do you.

Do you have, like what.

Like, if you reflect back then, did you have any kind of doubt in your mind?

Like, did you.

Or.

None.

Okay.

None.

Because you know what I've learned through the years?

That I've been courageous since the day I was born.

I broke a little boy's nose at 4 years old because he called me the N word.

I didn't know what the N word.

Meant, but I just knew it didn't sound right.

Didn't sound good and sound good.

Blood everywhere, you know, And My father's, when he came to pick me up from nursing school because they called, practically called the police, there was blood everywhere.

And my father's like, well, what she hit him for?

She wouldn't just hit him.

And they told him what he had said.

And my, here's my father.

You're lucky.

That's all she broke.

That's what he said and that.

And then he had to explain to a little four year old what that meant.

But I learned very young because we were raised with such in incredible values when you think about it.

We were told from a very young age, do not let anybody ever, ever tell you you cannot do something ever.

And I can hear my father's voice in my ear, when you're right, you're right.

When you're wrong, you're wrong.

You gotta deal with that.

But when you are right, stand tall, you don't back down, none of that.

And I think that played out through my life, that you just become fearless because the thought process is, well, what's the worst that could happen?

Yeah, like what's, what's the worst that could happen?

And I, you know, I've been brought to tears once in my lifetime in that room with those men and because they were just being, you know, negative and dropped like, just like, what are you doing here?

So to speak.

Yeah.

And I walked out of that room into the leader who hired me and you know, tears running down my face.

And I said, and he just pushed the Kleenex, walks over to me and you just, just hand it to me.

I said, you listen to me carefully, John.

They are not taking me out.

If they'll, if those eight men in there think that they're going to take me out and take me down, they're sadly mistaken.

Sadly.

I said, this should be fun.

You better be ready.

Okay?

And I walked up the office and that was it.

Because I look at it that if I'm not going to fight for myself, who's going to fight?

Yeah, who's going to fight?

You know, I am not.

So.

One of my favorite quotes of all time.

My children heard me say it.

I think I had it up on the wall.

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.

Hey, I want to all about Roosevelt.

I'm not giving anybody my consent ever.

I'm not giving anybody.

But here's the thing that I've learned.

I remember a boss saying to me, you can take somebody down with words, with grace, with kindness.

He said, you have literally stripped us down to nothing.

And we're Saying thank you to you.

He said, how do you do that?

You know, Because I don't let anything go.

I don't let anything go.

You say that you.

But I'm not gonna take you down so that everybody's embarrassed.

You know what I mean?

Because that doesn't get me anything.

Yeah.

Doesn't get me anything.

I realize that for folks that you and I that can be in these rooms, and I knew I could be in this room, that I could do this, and I will do it.

And they will never forget because there will be lessons every single day.

There's no point me getting all agitated and upset, blah, blah, because it's just ignorance.

It's ignorance.

Sometimes it's stupidity.

If it's real arrogance.

And you think you're gonna.

That might be a little different.

That might be a little different because I might have to make a point.

I might have to make a point where now you, you are turning beet red.

Yeah.

You know where that's what you're going to lead with.

Who raised you?

But it's still that, that, that, it's still that system of putting values first.

Right.

That values.

Yeah.

You don't get to treat me that way.

I.

And I won't let you treat other people that way either, because that shows up across the board.

Right.

I will not allow that.

So let's.

But, but really, to me, it's, it's, it's that, it's, it's lacking that self tenacity.

Right.

Like that, that conviction of self.

And so what from your experience, can you really.

Because I don't want to say we're raising it like we have a weaker culture, but I'm like you, we didn't talk about that stuff when all of a sudden I just found myself in rooms where I was the only in leadership role.

Did I know what I was doing?

No.

Did I figure it out?

Hell yes.

Did I gain respect?

Was my character building all of that?

Never once talked about this is word until one day I was asked about it on a panel.

But we're still talking about it.

How many times did we hear it last two weeks ago?

Oh my gosh.

I heard it at least half a dozen times.

I refuse to be on a.

Like, if I get the questions ahead of time, I'm like, don't ask me that question.

And in fact, I don't even want to be on this panel.

This is what we're still publicizing and putting out there, as if it's like this real thing that we can't work through or name or really give words to.

So what, like, with all the young women that you mentor, with the experience that you've had, what do women who still carry that with them need to know?

Okay, I.

So I chatted with the gals from the panel.

That's what we were sitting there, because a young gal that was beside me, delightful.

She talked about it, and I'm like, don't ever say those words again.

Okay, I said, and let me tell you why.

Okay, said.

Because everybody.

Everybody on the planet has a crisis of confidence.

Of confidence.

It's just a minute.

It's a minute.

You're going on a big stage.

You're going into your presenting chair of the board, whatever it is, and you think, oh, God, Okay.

But it's just a little set of nerves.

It's your competent.

I said, you need to anchor your confidence and your competency.

You're competent, so you're just having a minute.

Reframe, take a breath, whatever you got to do.

Get the song playing in your head, whatever that boosts you up.

But that's all that it is, and everybody has it.

It's not unique to women, women or men or anything like that.

But this syndrome thing is like a condition, and that has been attached to us.

So I said, remove it.

Change the language.

If you.

If we get people to start changing the language, it'll be gone.

Because words are really critical.

So I cannot tolerate.

I don't tolerate the B word.

I don't tolerate any demeaning words.

I'm not using any of.

I won't watch a mean girl movie if my life depended on it, because we're just perpetuating a myth or a series of things about women that are not true.

Are there mean women?

Yes, but they're mean men, too.

I don't see.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

And they're boy reunion.

They're mean humans.

Let's just say there are mean humans everywhere.

Yeah, there's people that are mean and nasty all the time.

But women, it's a different label that gets put on us when we're not nice.

Well, some women are not nice.

Some men are not nice.

There's just not nice people.

But we get labeled, and then it gets generalized for people.

Well, we don't.

You don't want to get a leadership team of all women.

That's going to be a cat claim.

Oh, my God.

There's another one.

Okay.

We don't use these kinds of terms or the terms that are there for men are so bad.

Okay.

That people would know.

No person's going to say it in a business context, but they will say some of these other things.

So I always say to the women, we.

It starts with us.

Okay?

Starts with us.

Because I can't control other people.

But you can control the words that you're using.

Stop saying it.

Because we're not pretending.

We're not being fake.

We're just having a minute.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just having a minute.

So how are you gonna reframe?

How are you gonna reframe that moment?

I also.

So I also want to say, like, the value that's coming from me, from what you're saying, too, is in that when you like especially how emphatic you are being about this, it.

It.

Then in my opinion, listeners, viewers, it should encourage you to find the words to express what it is that you're actually feeling in that moment.

And if it's fear, and it might be be honest, then do it afraid.

Right.

Do it afraid.

Right.

But I was also gonna say be honest about it, because chances are, if you do say it to somebody who's in the vicinity of who you are, the first they're gonna say, are you kidding me?

Go out there and be a rock star, man.

You got this.

You're inspiring me.

You know, they're gonna be shocked that you even thinking that about yourself.

Right.

So.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Let somebody give you a booster shot to your soul in that minute and then go and rock your world.

Go do what you need to do, but stop using it.

I know.

I actually was at an event and I had these women chanting, there is nothing imposter about me.

There is nothing.

Like, we just.

I just was going.

Because I'm trying.

If there's one that I could do in my life.

Correct.

I don't want my nieces to be talking about that stuff on any panel discussion by the time they get to my age.

But we have to stop it.

We have to stop it.

Yeah.

You know, you.

You teach people how to treat you.

You say the things you people repeat.

Don't say.

Don't put these things out.

Yeah.

For them to continue to perpetuate for another 10 years.

Yeah.

And it's.

It's interesting because I, you know, obviously I attend a lot of women events, and, you know, I'm.

I'm so looking forward to more events where we're coming to the room hot.

And what I mean by that it's like the language we're using to describe ourselves is empowering, like, from a very empowering place.

We're not talking about all of these things that demean us.

We're not sitting there crying about being the only whatever in the room.

You know, we're owning that power.

We're, you know, we're.

We're just.

We just know.

We are powerful beyond measure.

That's one of my favorite quotes.

Right?

Like, our deepest fear is that we are not inadequate, is that we are powerful beyond.

And that's the starting point of the event.

That is the starting point.

And.

And to settle into that bold, badass self.

Right.

And deal with it.

I just, like, I won't do it.

And I can see sometimes.

Yeah.

Where people.

They're not sure what to do.

Yeah.

All right.

You'll be okay.

You'll be fine.

You'll be fine.

Don't be afraid.

It's going to be.

I love it.

Oh, my gosh.

This is.

This has been fire.

Anyway, I could go on and it's got to be a part.

Two men, you know, after.

You have to catch up and read your books.

I want to read this next one that you're going to, but there's got to be.

You are.

You're something else.

You are.

You're such a delight.

Wow.

You are.

You're probably one of the most empowering.

Say that again.

It's the power of choice.

Yeah.

Choice is ours.

Yeah.

The choice is ours.

That's the message that people have to.

Like you just said, I choose to be a rock star.

I choose spectacular.

Yeah.

You're gonna just have to deal with it.

I choose to drink the juice that Deborah Christmas drinks.

I do like my alter ego.

You know, they always say have an alter ego, and I've never really named mine.

I think.

I think now I know why.

Because I think it's called Deborah Christmas.

I think my alternate is, like, what would Deborah Christmas do or say?

How was she act?

What's her swag?

I always talk about, like, I look forward to walking into these rooms with a white man swag like that.

Swag that.

Oh, my God.

But it's your swag.

You're the swag.

Swag.

So I'm going to take you through our rapid thrivers.

Okay?

These may not be rapid with you, but we'll see.

Let's.

When you think of someone who inspires you, who comes first to mind.

My grandmother.

Oh.

Didn't even have to think about Mighty Millie.

I called her mighty Millie.

4 foot 9 powerhouse, 4 foot 9.

Wow.

Kindest person you ever want to meet.

And she just spread joy.

Adored that woman.

And I had a good mother, so that just tells you something.

My mother was spectacular.

But Millie, awesome.

That's beautiful.

And she passed?

Yeah.

Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah.

And at what age?

1989.

She was.

She was 89.

She was 89.

89 and passed at 89.

Wow.

Wow.

That's a life.

Yeah, a spectacular life.

That's awesome.

She taught us well.

So what's a daily activity that keeps you in your thrive?

Oh, that's a good question.

Wow.

I walk every morning with my sister in law.

Okay.

Which is wonderful.

My husband's sister, we walk it.

So, you know, I'm up at 5, do a bunch of stuff.

7:30, because she's retired now.

She goes, I ain't doing this at 6.

Okay.

She lives close by then I'm assuming like 10 minutes.

Okay.

Okay.

We meet, you know, we drive our cars and my husband says, how the two of you have anything new to talk about every single day.

But we do, we do.

You know, it's created a real bond between us.

So that's really been.

It's a highlight of my day.

And I have this WhatsApp group with my children that got formed through the pandemic.

And it's the first thing I look at in the morning because there's either pictures of the grandchildren, hey, mama, what's happening?

What's doing?

It's, it's amazing.

And we've not given it up, you know, we giving it up when we kind of got locked down.

And it's a newsworthy stream all day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's really nice.

Yeah.

Because you know what?

I wouldn't be talking to them ten times a day.

Yeah.

We're all working and taking care of children and all that.

But that is a constant stream of conversation.

I love it.

I love it.

What is a book that's really helped you with your thrive?

You are John Maxwell.

I am a John Maxwell coach.

But you know what, have you ever met him?

No, I have not.

No, I haven't.

No, No, I haven't.

I haven't.

I listened to him.

I feel like I know him.

Me too.

And I'm a leadership student.

Okay.

As you can see by the hundreds of books behind me, many of them are.

Well, most of them are leadership books, are diversity books.

None of these are novels.

These are all.

Yeah, yeah.

A real kind of book.

The, the book that has had probably the most impact on me from A very young age was Dr.

Scott Peck, the road less traveled.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

And his very first line was, life is difficult.

Yeah, but it's so worth the journey, you know?

And I right there, he had me at that.

But I'm like, yeah, it's so worth.

The journey, you know, I wish I locked into that in my life.

Like, I wish it was like, something that I was.

You know, they say 10,000 hours, you become an expert.

Like, I actually wish I was an expert at the realization that life is meant to.

Like, life is meant to be difficult.

Like, I think what I've locked into later on in life, like, in the last 10 years, is that when problems do arise, they freak me out less.

Oh, right.

But for sure, right?

And I recognize that it's the universe's way of saying, okay, you're get ready for next.

Right?

Because you've got a little bit, like, maybe there's complacency where you're at right now.

So it's time to like, like, really turn.

Turn, like, like, like, like crank.

Crank where you are right now to get you to move.

Right.

And so I think too, one of my.

A former VP that, you know, very, very dear to me, said to me one day, will it matter in five months, five weeks, five days, five hours, minutes, Five hours?

I'm like, that is the best technique.

So I always sit back and think, better in five minutes or five?

It works every time.

Because you're like, yeah, no, yeah, no, well, it won't.

Yeah, yeah, this will matter.

So I now need to really think about this.

Yeah.

What is a app on your phone that helps you with your thrive?

The Calm app.

I love that app.

Between that and Spotify, because I must have.

The first time I did, I.

For the first time, I was asked for what was on my podcast list.

I did a keyNote address about two weeks ago, and I had a presentation.

I said, oh, let me send you an updated deck.

And I will literally listen.

I will create a slide with all the podcasts that are on my.

And they.

They waited for it.

But the Calm app, because I love the sound of the.

You can play any sound.

At first, I was listening to the sleep stories.

I haven't heard five minutes of a sleep story.

Yeah, I know you just knock out.

I'm out.

But I really like the ocean sound.

And even if I would wake up in the night, that's still going.

And is it the paid version or free?

It's paid version.

Yeah.

You subscribe to it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I like it a lot.

Yeah.

And what's a misconception?

I'm just curious.

Right.

Because at 67, I gather you don't live a life where you care what other people's misconceptions.

Certainly not other than the children that I birth in my parents.

But what might be one that somebody has of you that just still either baffles you or you just, you know.

You know what?

My sister said it to me and others have said it to me that I'm intimidating.

And I'm like, really?

I don't.

I just shake my head at intimidating.

Yeah.

Because I feel that that has, like, you know, people are afraid as long.

As they are, but it could be in a good way.

So here's what I would say.

And I.

And I probably didn't have the language when we started this podcast, but you exude power.

You know, when I think about that quote, our deepest fear is not that we're inadequate.

Our deepest fear is that we're powerful beyond measure.

And I haven't.

I haven't sat with, like, this is the longest we've sat down in a conversation, you know, just two of us.

But I truly do believe that you embody that.

Oh, thank you.

So if I think about, like, I'm.

That's my desire, that's my goal, that's my North Star, is to actually get to the place where I know that I'm powerful beyond measure.

Because it's not cocky.

It's not.

I think it's.

It's.

It's honoring what God has placed inside of you.

You are the epitome of somebody who.

I believe that that's what, like, looking at you and watching you move and listening to you, that's what I feel.

I feel like you're somebody who has embraced that.

I do.

But here's the challenge.

It might.

You know, Mighty Miller again said, be good and do good.

That's what she told me very young, and she told me lots.

I should probably write a book on Millieisms, the things that she said to me at a very young age.

But here's the challenge with it is people hesitate to challenge you.

I do feel that, and I don't think it's intimidation, but when you speak strongly and so emphatically about what you believe and you're very sure and confident in your.

I was raised to be confident.

I didn't just discover that.

I was raised, from the time I was young to be a confident person and not to let anybody shake that.

It's hard to get people to sort of say, you know what?

Sure.

That that's the way you should be thinking about that.

I need to surround myself by other strong magnets.

I was going to say.

It comes down to them.

And, you know, there might be.

There's an episode that I think there's a podcast episode that I listened to this week, like, just in the last few days.

One of the best conversations I've heard in a long time.

It was between.

So it's on the Rethinking podcast.

So it's on Adam Grant's podcast.

And he's interviews Trevor Noah.

Yeah, yeah, both of them.

Right.

And so these are two minds, two very powerful minds that I truly enjoyed listening to them have a conversation where even in the conversation, they didn't necessarily agree with each other and how they gave space for the other's perspective.

And then, like, in my.

In my interpretation, they almost then came together on a new potential concept.

You understand what I mean?

Like, absolutely, yeah.

And so it's a great episode when.

You know, when someone said my favorite thing, if someone says, I don't quite think of it that way, I'm like, oh, my God.

Yeah, tell me more.

Tell me more.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, because one of the blessings of having a good mind is to change your mind.

I love it.

If someone can help me change my mind because I'm so strong in my beliefs, where you make me think of.

Something differently, I think that's very powerful.

Yeah, I love that.

I do.

I love that.

So where do we find more of you?

Well, the books are a big deal for, you know, Kelly Irwin and I, my co author, wrote two books, Please stay.

And we just released in May.

Please join.

There's no place like tech to encourage our young girls to enter.

And.

And I also did a compilation project.

We Rise in Power in Amplifying the Voices of Women of Color and Our need for Change.

So they're all available on all the major book sites.

And then people can reach out to me on link and Instagram.

I.

I know we can give them all the hands.

Yes, I will.

There's not very many Deborah Christmases out there.

Find me pretty quickly.

LinkedIn's probably the fastest.

You just search on Deborah Christmas.

I think I'm the first one that comes up.

I don't know if there's another one, but.

And it's D, E B R A Deborah.

Debra is Deborah.

I love it.

I.

Oh, my gosh, I love it.

I'm really excited about this parting question.

So this Podcast is called Empowered in My Skin and would love to understand what that means to you.

Freedom.

It's freedom, you know, when.

When you feel whole and comfortable and confident and solid, like your feet are on the ground and nobody can shake you down.

Like, they can't take you down.

There's.

There's really quite something in that.

Like.

Like, nobody can take me out.

Just not possible.

Yeah.

And I love when you said that.

You said that to John, and.

Yeah.

These guys think these eight men are thinking they could take me out.

They're sadly mistaken.

I gotta remember that one.

Like, nobody can take you out.

You loud.

Yeah.

I will not.

I will not.

I'll walk from you.

Yeah.

I.

I'll walk.

You know, this doesn't serve me well.

Yeah.

Time for me to go.

Yeah.

You know, again, dignity, kindness, and grace.

Yeah.

Is how you act.

Yeah.

When you exit.

Yeah.

There's something that you said, and.

And look at me.

I'm breaking all the rules.

Sorry, podcast team.

Breaking all the rules.

You're not supposed to ask questions after you ask that last question, but there's something that you said that.

That came to me when you said, like, one of my favorite quotes is that your skills and talents will get you into your rooms, but it's your character that keeps you there.

Well, yeah.

It's a great one.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a.

It's a great one.

I heard a question the other day.

What?

I thought, I'm gonna start asking people this question.

How old would you be if you didn't know your age?

Isn't that a great question?

That's a great question.

I know.

I just heard it last week, and.

I'm like, I might have to add that to my podcast.

That might be a great.

I don't even know.

So how would you answer that?

Probably 42.

Oh, how would you.

So.

So how.

If you didn't know your age?

And why 42?

Because it's not like I think you're still finding your way in your 30s.

Oh.

You might be raising your children.

I don't know if you step into your whole self until you get a good 15, you know, 20 years.

Once you come out of school.

Once you come out of school.

So if you ask me that question.

Hey, how old would you be if you didn't know your age?

I feel 25.

Well, I'm just gonna say, like, if I didn't know my age, I'm gonna say I was.

Be at least, like, 30.

28.

30 is what comes to mind.

Because even as I think about myself back then like that.

And I don't know if I'm answering the question right, but I think that's where I wish I knew what I knew now.

Oh, my God, yes, then.

Because that's really when my career.

Like, that was when, like, some big, big changes happened.

And if I had been this equipped then, you know, and so I still feel like I'm that person then.

That is now coming out.

Yes.

No, no, no.

And it's like I used in all the interviews that I've done on panels with, you know, moderating.

I've asked many women, what would you tell your younger self?

I've asked them that question, knowing what you know now.

But here's the other thing.

I think the bigger question is, what is your older self telling you now?

Because life is like, you still have.

You still have moments now that you need to step a little bit differently than you've been.

And so what is your older self really telling yourself now that you're not listening to?

Right.

Well, for me, I look at it as.

And I told my children, by the way, that I said, I plan on living to about 108, so govern yourself accordingly because you'll be about it.

Okay.

I could pay for the old folks home for you.

That might be the.

That might be the title for this.

Discover Yourself Accordingly with Deborah Christmas.

That might be the title for this podcast.

I think about, you know, for.

As I get older and older, and there's such freedom in getting older because like you said earlier, I don't care.

You don't like me.

You don't.

You know, I know who the posse is.

As my daughter says, we're the ride and die Mom.

We're the ride.

I know who that is.

And, you know, you let new people in your life every year.

Maya Angelou said, add five friends every year, my friends, you know, into your circle.

But part of it is you just keep pushing forward to change the world.

I will.

I will never give up this fight.

Yeah.

My very last breath, I will fight for what is right.

Yeah.

Women.

For black women, for humans in general.

For me, just for humans.

You know what I mean?

For humans.

And I'll never give up.

Yeah.

Never.

Yeah.

I can't.

Yeah, I can't.

You can't fatigue me.

I actually said it at a.

I'm a board chair, and I said it at an event that we had in the work and the work that we do to drive more diversity in the fields of STEM and this any other like.

And a room was filled with a Lot of white people in corporate, and I was like, y'all.

Y'all fatigue, right?

But I've been black for, like, Black woman for 52 years.

Like, I don't get that luxury, you know?

And so I'm pouring energy into each and every one of you today.

And I still will have reserve to serve.

Right?