VIKKI: 00:00:00

Mental health now is a subject that is very well spoken about.

2

: 00:00:04

Six years ago, no one

really spoke about it.

3

: 00:00:07

It was like, "oh, be quiet now, yeah,

yeah, yeah, you've got postnatal.

4

: 00:00:11

Like, you're miserable".

5

: 00:00:12

Like, "enjoy the fact

that you've got a baby".

6

: 00:00:13

Like, "be grateful you've got a baby."

7

: 00:00:16

Particularly in my culture, there's

no word, really, for mental health.

8

: 00:00:21

And where I've married, a white

person, and I'm in, like, that world,

9

: 00:00:26

I'm fortunate that he understands it.

10

: 00:00:28

But I worry, had I married into an Indian

culture, would I have got that support?

11

: 00:00:34

And I know plenty of Asian mums that have

had postnatal depression that have just,

12

: 00:00:37

"oh yeah, yeah, we had it, and we just

got on with it", because there was no

13

: 00:00:42

support, but I've been reading statistics

around Asian women that have died from

14

: 00:00:47

suicide in the first year because they

were undiagnosed postnatal depression,

15

: 00:00:52

because no one would listen to them.

16

: 00:00:54

KAVITA TREVENA: More

needs to be done for mums.

17

: 00:00:56

And I think that's the turning point

for me, for The Unlikely Mummy,

18

: 00:00:59

was to start fighting for mums.

19

: 00:01:03

You're never alone.

20

: 00:01:04

Never.

21

: 00:01:06

And if you are alone, that's

when you need to start reaching

22

: 00:01:08

out, because we will help you.

23

: 00:01:12

VIKKI: Having a baby is meant to be

the most joyful time of your life.

24

: 00:01:16

But for many mums and dads,

it can be the hardest and, at

25

: 00:01:20

times, the darkest of places.

26

: 00:01:23

Welcome to Blue MumDays, the podcast

for anyone struggling with parenting.

27

: 00:01:28

Everyone is welcome and

you're in a very safe space.

28

: 00:01:32

All the stories shared

here are from the heart.

29

: 00:01:34

Real life experience of people

who have been through it

30

: 00:01:37

and come out the other side.

31

: 00:01:39

You need to know that you are not

alone and these awful feelings

32

: 00:01:42

will not be with you forever.

33

: 00:01:45

Just one word.

34

: 00:01:46

These are real conversations

and may be triggering, so

35

: 00:01:49

please listen with discretion.

36

: 00:01:51

We will also signpost you

to help in the show notes.

37

: 00:01:55

Today's episode covers birth trauma,

and post traumatic stress disorder.

38

: 00:02:01

VIKKI: Today's guest is Kavita

Trevena, founder of The Unlikely Mummy.

39

: 00:02:05

Kavita created her community after being

diagnosed with postnatal depression,

40

: 00:02:10

following the birth of her first

child, and later with post traumatic

41

: 00:02:14

stress disorder after her second.

42

: 00:02:17

Initially, she began the community as

a way to express her frustrations about

43

: 00:02:21

parenting, but soon discovered that

many other parents shared her struggles.

44

: 00:02:26

This led her to grow The Unlikely

Mummy into a non-profit organisation

45

: 00:02:30

that supports not just mothers but all

parents and their supportive community.

46

: 00:02:36

Kavita has built a safe

and supportive space, where

47

: 00:02:38

individuals can access help through

48

: 00:02:40

counselling, exercise therapies,

retreats, forest schools, and a newly

49

: 00:02:45

launched Walking Club for mothers.

50

: 00:02:48

Her work is rooted in evidence-based

practices, with a strong focus on

51

: 00:02:52

supporting mental health and bonding

through research-backed approaches.

52

: 00:02:56

She works hard to ensure under-represented

groups receive the support they need,

53

: 00:03:01

and her dedication has earned her

awards as a blogger, community leader,

54

: 00:03:06

and Coronation Champion for her work

in supporting maternal mental health.

55

: 00:03:11

Thank you so much for

joining me today, Kavita.

56

: 00:03:14

I'm absolutely delighted to have

you, I've been wanting to get you

57

: 00:03:16

on the podcast for a long time.

58

: 00:03:19

KAVITA TREVENA: You

want to know a secret?

59

: 00:03:20

I've been wanting to be on your

podcast for an even longer time!

60

: 00:03:23

I was like, "When's it my turn?"

61

: 00:03:25

VIKKI: Kavita, I loved when we were

chatting about you coming on and you'd

62

: 00:03:29

mentioned about like "Oh, I'm really

sorry, I tend to tell jokes and things",

63

: 00:03:32

I just want to say "Bring it on!"

64

: 00:03:34

Because I really, whilst this is

a heavy topic - anything talking

65

: 00:03:38

about postnatal depression can be

really heavy - but actually, you

66

: 00:03:42

know, life is about laughter and life

is about the good moments as well.

67

: 00:03:46

And I don't ever want this to

be a really dark, heavy listen.

68

: 00:03:51

I want this to be uplifting and hopeful.

69

: 00:03:53

KAVITA TREVENA: Absolutely.

70

: 00:03:54

I think we will laugh, cry,

and all of it wrapped into one.

71

: 00:03:58

So yeah, I'm looking forward to this.

72

: 00:03:59

It's gonna be a great conversation.

73

: 00:04:01

VIKKI: Fantastic.

74

: 00:04:01

So, on the crying front, I'm a crier.

75

: 00:04:03

Honestly, every single episode,

there's a point you can actually tell

76

: 00:04:07

by, I get more and more sniffly.

77

: 00:04:09

So...

78

: 00:04:09

(laughter).

79

: 00:04:11

KAVITA TREVENA: That's not going to be my

aim today, is to make you cry, by the way.

80

: 00:04:14

Hopefully I won't make you cry!

81

: 00:04:15

VIKKI: It's all good - all emotion's good!

82

: 00:04:17

So, let's start with the pregnancies here.

83

: 00:04:19

You're a mum of two?

84

: 00:04:21

KAVITA TREVENA: Yes.

85

: 00:04:22

VIKKI: Did you have a good

first pregnancy with your son?

86

: 00:04:25

KAVITA TREVENA: Yes and no.

87

: 00:04:26

I didn't really accept

that I was pregnant.

88

: 00:04:30

So the story of me, because I

think if people aren't aware, or

89

: 00:04:33

you might not be aware, that I

was told I couldn't have children.

90

: 00:04:36

I have polycystic ovarian syndrome

( I'm covered in cysts, so I was

91

: 00:04:39

always told from 18, "If you ever

want children, we will help you.

92

: 00:04:43

It's unlikely you will fall pregnant

naturally, and there's options."

93

: 00:04:46

So I was tested to see

whether I had endometriosis.

94

: 00:04:49

So I've been to all the tests.

95

: 00:04:50

Before my husband and I got

married, all the cards on the

96

: 00:04:53

table were like, "We might not be

able to have children naturally.

97

: 00:04:56

Is that okay?"

98

: 00:04:57

And he wanted me, not the fact

that we could have children.

99

: 00:04:59

So that was brilliant.

100

: 00:05:00

So we were fine.

101

: 00:05:02

And cliche as it is, my

eldest is a honeymoon baby!

102

: 00:05:06

Doctors, no, they don't lie, but obviously

I'm a miracle and I defied all odds!

103

: 00:05:11

so, The whole pregnancy part of

things was us being newlyweds.

104

: 00:05:16

So I come from quite a relaxed

background, as in culturally

105

: 00:05:19

relaxed background with my

parents, but they wanted me to

106

: 00:05:23

get married before I moved out.

107

: 00:05:25

So the day we got married on a Sunday, I

moved into his house - it sounds like a

108

: 00:05:29

Craig David song - on the Monday, and then

we went on honeymoon on the Wednesday!

109

: 00:05:33

So I hadn't really lived with him

or spent that much time with just

110

: 00:05:39

us together, before really getting

married, even though , we've been

111

: 00:05:42

married seven years now and we're

still together, so obviously it works.

112

: 00:05:45

Then, a couple of months later, finding

out we were pregnant, was a really hard

113

: 00:05:50

pill to swallow, like, I was very excited

and very happy, but at the same time, I'm

114

: 00:05:54

like, "But I'm a newlywed, shouldn't I

be going on, like, really exotic holidays

115

: 00:05:57

every year now", and, " shouldn't we

be going on these beautiful long dates,

116

: 00:06:00

and just enjoying being us?", but...

117

: 00:06:04

we were just pregnant, so I

hid it for a very long time.

118

: 00:06:07

So I hid the pregnancy, not through

being, like, ashamed that I was pregnant,

119

: 00:06:12

but everyone was like, "But you've just

got married", like, "it's too soon".

120

: 00:06:15

And everyone loves an opinion,

don't they, so like...

121

: 00:06:17

VIKKI: Oh my god yes!

122

: 00:06:18

KAVITA TREVENA: ...I hid it

for a good chunk of time.

123

: 00:06:20

I hid it from work until I was like

20 weeks pregnant, and a lot of people

124

: 00:06:25

didn't even know I was pregnant.

125

: 00:06:27

If you weren't in my own little

mini circle, if you was on, like,

126

: 00:06:29

you know, like, the second layer

of a circle, you just didn't know.

127

: 00:06:32

The pregnancy was absolutely

fine, I just hid it, but I was

128

: 00:06:35

diagnosed with gestational diabetes

129

: 00:06:37

VIKKI: Oh,

130

: 00:06:37

KAVITA TREVENA: quite early on.

131

: 00:06:39

On my husband's birthday.

132

: 00:06:42

I had to do that test.

133

: 00:06:43

And then on my birthday, I found

out that I was on the marker for it.

134

: 00:06:50

So that kind of ruined the pregnancy a

little bit because I'm a vegetarian as

135

: 00:06:52

well, I just felt like I couldn't eat.

136

: 00:06:55

So the last couple of months

of pregnancy just was awful.

137

: 00:06:59

VIKKI: To explain for anybody that

isn't familiar with gestational

138

: 00:07:02

diabetes and what the ramifications

are for the pregnancy and for you, can

139

: 00:07:08

you tell us a little bit about that?

140

: 00:07:09

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah, absolutely,

from what I've understood it, or

141

: 00:07:11

how it was explained to me, I didn't

have diabetes, and my child doesn't

142

: 00:07:15

have diabetes, it's just that my body

was unable to process the insulin

143

: 00:07:21

or it wasn't transferring from me to

baby or if I was doing it, it was too

144

: 00:07:25

much and baby couldn't cope with it.

145

: 00:07:27

It's not what people think is I

was sitting there eating chocolate

146

: 00:07:30

every day, or I was sitting there

drinking cans of Coke every day.

147

: 00:07:33

It's got nothing to do with my lifestyle

or how I was eating during pregnancies.

148

: 00:07:38

It's a bit of potluck and a

bit of bad luck, if you like,

149

: 00:07:40

I don't know if I can say that!

150

: 00:07:42

But it's quite hereditary as well, so

if you're known to have diabetes in the

151

: 00:07:45

family, so your mum is type 2, or you're

slightly overweight, or you're from

152

: 00:07:49

an ethnic background, or if you're an

older mum, you're more likely to have the

153

: 00:07:53

chance of having gestational diabetes.

154

: 00:07:56

So, where I was on the border, I

was diet controlled, so I didn't

155

: 00:07:59

have to take any Metformin tablets

or insulin, which lots of women do

156

: 00:08:05

have to take, and there is support

out there if you do need to do that.

157

: 00:08:08

There's nothing, there's no right

or wrong way to have gestational

158

: 00:08:11

diabetes, it's just purely how your

body processes its food, and how it

159

: 00:08:17

takes the good things from the food.

160

: 00:08:19

So you would have a meal, you

would pinprick test like an

161

: 00:08:22

hour later, test it on a machine

to see where your sugars lied.

162

: 00:08:27

And I was really good.

163

: 00:08:28

Purely because I used to pretty much

starve myself, because I was so scared

164

: 00:08:32

that I would be killing my baby.

165

: 00:08:35

Because every time you had a

higher reading, it's potentially

166

: 00:08:38

dangerous for your child.

167

: 00:08:39

This is how it was explained to me.

168

: 00:08:41

And then they would grow too

big, they'd have too much fluid.

169

: 00:08:45

When you're pregnant, you'd have

to have a (Caesarean) section.

170

: 00:08:48

If you gave birth naturally, like,

they could break their shoulders

171

: 00:08:51

because they're too large to get

out, and they'd have to break body

172

: 00:08:54

parts to get him out of your body.

173

: 00:08:55

This is what you are told.

174

: 00:08:57

So I was like, "No, I'm

not having any of that."

175

: 00:08:59

So I was determined to only be diet

controlled, so I was incredibly strict.

176

: 00:09:04

I'd have a set breakfast, set snack,

lunch, and dinner, and I wouldn't

177

: 00:09:08

deviate from that plan because I was

so scared that anytime I ate something,

178

: 00:09:13

it was harming my child, which is

daft now that I look back, six years

179

: 00:09:19

and three years for both of them.

180

: 00:09:21

But at the time when you're in it,

and there's no information because

181

: 00:09:23

there really isn't anything around

gestational diabetes and understanding

182

: 00:09:28

that if I was to eat Indian food,

that's actually really bad for me.

183

: 00:09:31

But it's not because

I've grown up with it.

184

: 00:09:32

So one minute I'm eating food that I've

been told is really bad for me, but it,

185

: 00:09:36

but it isn't, it's just the way it is.

186

: 00:09:38

But it is a good lifestyle change.

187

: 00:09:40

I lost a stone during my pregnancies

for both of them, and I wish I'd

188

: 00:09:45

carried on some of the habits!

189

: 00:09:47

VIKKI: There's so much to unpick

there, because A, like you were saying

190

: 00:09:52

about how everybody's got opinion,

and it's something that I've talked

191

: 00:09:54

about, like, with Sarah Edge in

the last couple of episodes, and

192

: 00:09:57

we were talking about how everybody

comments on your body when you're

193

: 00:10:01

pregnant, and the size of your bump,

and yeah, everybody's got an opinion.

194

: 00:10:06

So, did you feel like a sense of

judgement if you were telling people

195

: 00:10:09

you had gestational diabetes, even though

it was nothing that you could control?

196

: 00:10:14

KAVITA TREVENA: Oh gosh, absolutely!

197

: 00:10:14

I said it, didn't, like, the fact that I

was like, it's not because I was eating

198

: 00:10:17

chocolates and biscuits and cakes, like,

because I wasn't actually, during the

199

: 00:10:22

first one, second one I did, because I

got to the point where I was like, "I'm

200

: 00:10:25

gonna get it anyway, I might as well enjoy

it now before I get told I've got it!"

201

: 00:10:28

(laughs).

202

: 00:10:29

VIKKI: I think even if you're not going

through something like gestational

203

: 00:10:32

diabetes, that the feeling of

responsibility when you're pregnant,

204

: 00:10:37

especially as a first time mum, you don't

want to do anything at all that could

205

: 00:10:41

jeopardise your baby or harm your baby.

206

: 00:10:43

So that must have been a

big weight on your mind.

207

: 00:10:47

KAVITA TREVENA: It was.

208

: 00:10:47

I got tired of explaining to

people "I don't have diabetes".

209

: 00:10:53

And, even now, with my two babies, so

both of them, I had gestational diabetes

210

: 00:10:59

with both my babies, and, They are more

likely to get diabetes when they're grown

211

: 00:11:05

ups and I'm more likely to get type 2

diabetes now, as well, because of it.

212

: 00:11:10

Yeah.

213

: 00:11:11

VIKKI: Really?

214

: 00:11:11

So I thought it was something that just

affected you when you were pregnant.

215

: 00:11:14

KAVITA TREVENA: It is while

you're pregnant, but you're more

216

: 00:11:16

likely to get type 2 diabetes if

you've had gestational diabetes.

217

: 00:11:20

VIKKI: Ah, right

218

: 00:11:22

KAVITA TREVENA: But a lot of

women don't get told this.

219

: 00:11:25

Around my daughter's birthday,

I'll go get a blood test done.

220

: 00:11:27

So you just aim it around

someone's birthday.

221

: 00:11:29

So, um, I'm on the borderline, so

I'm pre-diabetic at the moment, and

222

: 00:11:33

I've been fighting and fighting to

get help and referrals and resources

223

: 00:11:38

to help me not be pre-diabetic.

224

: 00:11:41

But with that, and the polycystic ovarian

syndrome, my body's just going nuts.

225

: 00:11:47

So I need to, spend some

time working on that.

226

: 00:11:50

But that's resulted as a pregnancy thing.

227

: 00:11:53

And it just blows my mind.

228

: 00:11:55

It's been going on for six years

and there's no real support.

229

: 00:11:58

VIKKI: Yeah.

230

: 00:11:59

KAVITA TREVENA: There needs

to be more support for mums.

231

: 00:12:01

And partners, because my husband used

to watch me crying, because I didn't

232

: 00:12:05

know what to eat, and he'd go and get

books and options for me, just so I

233

: 00:12:10

could eat, because it was hard for him

to watch me struggle, because of all the

234

: 00:12:14

guilt I was feeling, that every time I

ate something I was potentially harming

235

: 00:12:19

whatever child was inside me at the time.

236

: 00:12:21

And it's hard for your

partner to see you that way?

237

: 00:12:25

VIKKI: Yeah definitely.

238

: 00:12:26

Myself, I'm going through the process

of discovering that I'm neurodivergent,

239

: 00:12:31

and my sort of thinking, and it makes

me look back at early motherhood and

240

: 00:12:36

how difficult I found it was because

I think I have like this quite rigid

241

: 00:12:40

thinking that I want to be doing

the right thing, the 'proper' thing.

242

: 00:12:44

And so if there's, like, a

whole permutation of different

243

: 00:12:49

options, I get overwhelmed.

244

: 00:12:51

Because I'm like, well, "Which

is the right thing to do?"

245

: 00:12:54

So I can totally understand

that, it's like, tell me what...

246

: 00:12:56

KAVITA TREVENA: ....to do.

247

: 00:12:58

VIKKI: Yeah, you almost need a dietician

to say, " Avoid this, eat this, this sort

248

: 00:13:03

of portion size", and then happy days,

you know what you're doing, don't you?

249

: 00:13:07

So interesting pregnancy then.

250

: 00:13:09

My God, you had a going on!

251

: 00:13:11

You and your husband were just getting

into the rhythm of living together.

252

: 00:13:15

KAVITA TREVENA: Gosh yeah.

253

: 00:13:16

... VIKKI: How about the birth?

254

: 00:13:17

Are you sort of happy talking

about that experience?

255

: 00:13:21

KAVITA TREVENA: I am now.

256

: 00:13:21

Had you asked me five years ago it

probably would have been a 'no'.

257

: 00:13:24

It was quite a nice start to the birth.

258

: 00:13:27

I do think the mum that screams

the loudest is the one that

259

: 00:13:30

gets the room the quickest.

260

: 00:13:31

Which is quite sad, actually, because

I did that with my second child and I

261

: 00:13:34

got in a Birthing Suite quite quickly.

262

: 00:13:36

The first time they induced me.

263

: 00:13:39

Which, if anyone's had an induction,

it slows you down completely and I

264

: 00:13:43

kind of wish I hadn't done it now.

265

: 00:13:46

But then you don't know at the time,

because you're a first time mum and you

266

: 00:13:48

go with what the experts tell you to do.

267

: 00:13:50

So I was induced, and it took a very long

time, I think it was like the hottest

268

: 00:13:54

May in 2018, when we had a heatwave!

269

: 00:13:58

And I was in this hospital, and

it was just, oh, it was grim.

270

: 00:14:02

Not the hospital wasn't grim,

it's just the situation was grim!

271

: 00:14:05

I did try for a natural birth, we

were pushing for what felt like 12

272

: 00:14:09

hours, I think it was 10 in the end.

273

: 00:14:11

VIKKI: You were pushing for 10 hours?!

274

: 00:14:13

KAVITA TREVENA: Well, I was in

the whole process for that long.

275

: 00:14:15

VIKKI: Yeah, yeah, oh my god.

276

: 00:14:17

KAVITA TREVENA: It felt like, probably

wasn't, you know what, it probably looked

277

: 00:14:19

like 20 minutes, but it felt like forever!

278

: 00:14:21

And then I remember we had a changeover

of midwives, and um, I had this midwife

279

: 00:14:26

come in, and she was lovely, actually,

she was, I only had her for a little

280

: 00:14:29

while, but oh my gosh, she was the best.

281

: 00:14:31

And I was getting so overwhelmed, so

I had an epidural put in, and I was

282

: 00:14:36

having contractions with the epidural

going in, and it's interesting because

283

: 00:14:42

when the anaesthetist comes in, they

just want to do it and get in, get

284

: 00:14:45

out, and go, but actually you're

contracting while it's happening, and

285

: 00:14:48

the midwives really do advocate for you.

286

: 00:14:50

And I really thank them for that, that

was lovely when she was fighting for

287

: 00:14:54

him to stop, and it was so painful.

288

: 00:14:57

I got to a point, I think it was like

10 o'clock at night, and a load of

289

: 00:15:01

them kept coming in and coming out, I

almost just stopped in the process.

290

: 00:15:05

They kept talking at me, and I couldn't

process what they were saying, and they

291

: 00:15:10

kept saying, "If we don't get your

child out, either you or him will die.

292

: 00:15:13

Sign this piece of paper, you

need to do this, and you need

293

: 00:15:14

to do an emergency section."

294

: 00:15:17

And, I know I'm talking really

quickly, but that's how quick it felt.

295

: 00:15:20

So I, I looked at my husband

and said, "What do I do?"

296

: 00:15:24

And the consultant person went, "It's

not his decision, it's your decision.

297

: 00:15:28

You need to decide."

298

: 00:15:29

I was like, " but I don't know what to do.

299

: 00:15:31

"So the midwife was lovely.

300

: 00:15:32

She just stopped everyone.

301

: 00:15:33

She almost, like, stopped the noise

and said, "If you don't sign the

302

: 00:15:39

piece of paper, there's a high

chance that you could both die.

303

: 00:15:42

We just need to make sure you're both

happy and healthy and all the rest of it."

304

: 00:15:46

I was like, "Thank you.

305

: 00:15:47

In that case, give me the piece

of paper and I'll sign it."

306

: 00:15:49

I just needed someone to slow it

down, and explain my options to

307

: 00:15:54

me, and the only option I had was,

"you need to get the kid out".

308

: 00:15:57

So we got rushed to the emergency

room, and within, I think it was as

309

: 00:16:01

quick as like nine minutes, he was

in my arms, I had a little baby boy.

310

: 00:16:05

So they lifted him up, I remember the

lady behind me, she was lovely, the

311

: 00:16:09

anesthetist woman, goes, "Dad, Dad, Dad!"

312

: 00:16:12

My husband wasn't answering, because

he's not a dad, is he, at that point?!

313

: 00:16:15

We were just two people, Kavita and

Roger, like, we're not mum and dad yet!

314

: 00:16:19

" Go get your camera ready, come

on, get your camera ready!"

315

: 00:16:21

So as they pulled Rohan up

and out, he weed, like...

316

: 00:16:25

(laughs) he weed all over the

consultant that like, did the section!

317

: 00:16:31

But, um, we've got pictures

of that, it's amazing.

318

: 00:16:33

So we just held him, and you know

when the world just stops, and it was

319

: 00:16:37

silent, in a very busy, loud room,

it was silent for me and him, and

320

: 00:16:42

we just held him and we just cried.

321

: 00:16:43

I was like, "I've got myself a baby boy."

322

: 00:16:45

And he was still wrinkly, and then

he started crying, and then they took

323

: 00:16:48

him away, But unfortunately, where

I was in so much pain from the section.

324

: 00:16:53

I couldn't really move.

325

: 00:16:54

The hospital, they're helpful,

but they're not helpful, are they?

326

: 00:16:57

Because they've got loads

of other mums to look after.

327

: 00:16:59

And you're given, as a first time

mum, given this tiny, tiny baby.

328

: 00:17:05

"There you go!"

329

: 00:17:05

And you're like, well, what

am I meant to do with it?

330

: 00:17:08

But no one you how to breastfeed.

331

: 00:17:10

No one teaches you how to change a nappy.

332

: 00:17:13

No one teaches you how to

put clothes on the baby.

333

: 00:17:17

And you're like, "well, what do I do now?

334

: 00:17:19

Like, it's crying.

335

: 00:17:19

How do I comfort it?

336

: 00:17:20

Like, what, what do you do?"

337

: 00:17:22

So I think for me, it was I couldn't have

a baby to having a baby, having a section.

338

: 00:17:30

My husband going back after work five

days after having my section, because he

339

: 00:17:35

was having his own stuff going on with

his career and his work and whatever.

340

: 00:17:40

And I was at home on my own and

I just didn't know what to do.

341

: 00:17:43

So I just, just kept crying every day.

342

: 00:17:45

Like every day I cried and

I couldn't process having a

343

: 00:17:51

baby, like it was really hard.

344

: 00:17:52

(Gets emotional).

345

: 00:17:54

Oh gosh, I speak about it all

the time, but I guess, um, oh

346

: 00:18:00

wow, maybe I will make you cry!

347

: 00:18:01

(Laughs)

348

: 00:18:01

VIKKI: With things like this,

Kavita, you think you've gotten over

349

: 00:18:05

something, and then it will just pop

up out of nowhere, and that's trauma.

350

: 00:18:11

That's yeah.

351

: 00:18:12

know.

352

: 00:18:13

KAVITA TREVENA: But you know what the

thing is with, He is the best thing

353

: 00:18:16

that's ever happened to me, that little

boy, He made me a mum, and I feel for

354

: 00:18:22

him sometimes, because I've learned

how to be a mum with him, but I feel

355

: 00:18:28

like I'm a better mum for my daughter,

because he's taught me everything.

356

: 00:18:33

He got the worst of me, and

she's got the best of me.

357

: 00:18:36

And it's just, that guilt, isn't it?

358

: 00:18:40

I feel like, if I could do it

again, it'd be so much better.

359

: 00:18:46

Yeah.

360

: 00:18:46

VIKKI: God, you've really set me off!

361

: 00:18:47

KAVITA TREVENA: Oh god, I'm so sorry!

362

: 00:18:48

What I the hell?

363

: 00:18:50

Hmm.

364

: 00:18:52

VIKKI: No, but it's so true.

365

: 00:18:53

I mean, my God, you know, with

the, the benefit of hindsight.

366

: 00:18:58

But the thing is as well, like, I

remember when I, I told my, son Stan

367

: 00:19:04

do you know why I'm doing this podcast?

368

: 00:19:06

And he was like, "well,

to help other people."

369

: 00:19:08

And I said, "yeah, but do you

know why I'm doing this podcast?

370

: 00:19:12

Did you realise that I

had postnatal depression?

371

: 00:19:15

And his words were, and, my God, I

really burst into tears, he was just

372

: 00:19:19

like, "but you always seem so joyful".

373

: 00:19:21

And the thing is, like, that's his

perception of me, and it's like, we

374

: 00:19:27

know, as, mums, and parents what we've

been through, but actually the kids...

375

: 00:19:34

KAVITA TREVENA: no, we mask

it everywhere, don't we?

376

: 00:19:35

VIKKI: But yeah, we mask it well.

377

: 00:19:37

But also, we have shown them

love, we have had these wonderful

378

: 00:19:41

moments with each other.

379

: 00:19:42

And it's, it's like, I can't remember

whether it was with you online

380

: 00:19:46

or somebody on Instagram, I was

having a discussion about birthdays

381

: 00:19:51

and how triggering I find them.

382

: 00:19:52

KAVITA TREVENA: That was me, yes!

383

: 00:19:54

VIKKI: Yeah I thought it was!

384

: 00:19:54

KAVITA TREVENA: It was me yeah.

385

: 00:19:56

VIKKI: And about how I always find

Stanley's birthday triggering,

386

: 00:20:00

because I get this feeling of regret

of what should have been, like

387

: 00:20:05

especially from that first year.

388

: 00:20:08

And I don't know I, yeah, it sort

of taps into that feeling of sort

389

: 00:20:12

of regret and grief and guilt.

390

: 00:20:16

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah, it's hard isn't it?

391

: 00:20:17

It's hard to process.

392

: 00:20:21

VIKKI: So Roger went back to work after

five days, which is like no time for him

393

: 00:20:24

to process, let alone you in terms of

recovering from a C -section, and also

394

: 00:20:31

your hormones are all over the place.

395

: 00:20:35

Hormones is a whole another

episode, and there's a really great

396

: 00:20:39

conversation I had with Dr Hannah

Short, so I'll put that in the show

397

: 00:20:42

notes, which is all about hormones.

398

: 00:20:44

So what sort of support did

you have around from family?

399

: 00:20:48

KAVITA TREVENA: So, this is my

eline, so we got married July: 2017

400

: 00:20:52

Rohan was born May, 2018.

401

: 00:20:56

This is my timeline of

how quick things happened.

402

: 00:20:59

So the June, 2017, my mum was

diagnosed with breast cancer.

403

: 00:21:03

So in the the June, which

has also impacted everything.

404

: 00:21:08

And I never really unpicked

it till like two years ago.

405

: 00:21:12

And this was like seven years ago now.

406

: 00:21:14

So she had her operation.

407

: 00:21:17

And she's all clear now, she's

absolutely fine, she's got all the

408

: 00:21:19

medicines helped, all the therapies have

happened, and she's got the all clear.

409

: 00:21:22

So she had her operation and we got

married like a month later, so she was

410

: 00:21:27

still at home, or doing a phased return

back to work, but also recovering, so

411

: 00:21:31

she was at my house like every day.

412

: 00:21:34

Popping in, in our half days,

coming around, but not to look

413

: 00:21:38

after Rohan, but to look after me.

414

: 00:21:41

So she would come in, like,

give me a cuddle, cook me

415

: 00:21:45

dinner, and then see to Rohan.

416

: 00:21:48

And I loved that.

417

: 00:21:49

She doesn't do it now though!

418

: 00:21:51

VIKKI: My God, that's the biggest

gift as a new mum to have that.

419

: 00:21:56

KAVITA TREVENA: So she

would come round, yeah.

420

: 00:21:58

VIKKI: And yeah, big shout

out to your incredible mum.

421

: 00:22:01

What's her name?

422

: 00:22:02

Jyoti, what an amazing woman you are.

423

: 00:22:05

yeah, my, my mum had breast

cancer, like gosh, it was about

424

: 00:22:09

26 years ago, but she's fine.

425

: 00:22:12

But yeah, shout out to the mums!

426

: 00:22:14

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah.

427

: 00:22:15

VIKKI: What an incredible woman she

clearly is, to give that to you.

428

: 00:22:19

KAVITA TREVENA: Oh she's strong.

429

: 00:22:21

Yeah.

430

: 00:22:22

And like my dad came round

in between his working days.

431

: 00:22:25

I had some really lovely

friends, like, friends popped

432

: 00:22:28

over and, um, food deliveries.

433

: 00:22:32

My best friend sent me a food

shop of ready meals and I had a

434

: 00:22:35

really nice network of friends.

435

: 00:22:37

But, you know, they come and

then they go again and that's it.

436

: 00:22:41

Or they'll come and it's, like, so

exhausting when people come and visit you.

437

: 00:22:46

I had someone come to visit me and

said, "Oh, you know what, you look

438

: 00:22:49

really tired, you should rest."

439

: 00:22:49

I was like, "I'd love to,

but you've overstayed your

440

: 00:22:52

welcome and you're still here.

441

: 00:22:53

And I used to get really ratty afterwards.

442

: 00:22:55

And I was so exhausted from entertaining

when all you want to do is recover.

443

: 00:23:00

And that was tough.

444

: 00:23:02

But, um, I had a little support network,

of one or two friends that I would ring

445

: 00:23:06

up, we would message, but not a lot of

my friends had babies at this point.

446

: 00:23:10

VIKKI: Mmm.

447

: 00:23:11

KAVITA TREVENA: So I would go to

friends that have already got babies

448

: 00:23:13

and they would give me advice.

449

: 00:23:15

So that's how The Unlikely Mummy was born!

450

: 00:23:18

So I created this platform to moan

about parenting, and how hard it

451

: 00:23:25

is, and how I was trapped in a 'nap

trap', or whatever you call it.

452

: 00:23:29

And Rohan, every time he got to a new

stage, I'm like, "why is he waving at

453

: 00:23:34

his food and throwing it on the floor?

454

: 00:23:35

Like, why can't he eat this food?"

455

: 00:23:36

And everyone's like, "oh,

my child used to do this.

456

: 00:23:39

And...

457

: 00:23:39

VIKKI: Oh gosh, yeah.

458

: 00:23:40

There's so many phases, isn't it?

459

: 00:23:41

Like the 'refusing to get in

the buggy and car seat' phase.

460

: 00:23:45

KAVITA TREVENA: Screaming

uncontrollably, oh yeah...

461

: 00:23:47

VIKKI: ...the shit fits

in the supermarket!

462

: 00:23:51

But like all these things are

phases and you will get through it.

463

: 00:23:54

So that's the joy of speaking

to people who've maybe, you

464

: 00:23:58

know, a couple of years...

465

: 00:23:59

KAVITA TREVENA: Gone through it.

466

: 00:24:00

VIKKI: ...down the line, and they'll

say, "don't worry, it won't be forever."

467

: 00:24:04

KAVITA TREVENA: And do you find

now, you can pay it forward?

468

: 00:24:07

So I'm like, "you know

what, you'll be fine.

469

: 00:24:08

Like, just get over this hurdle, and then

you'll get the next one, and then you'll

470

: 00:24:11

wish you were back at that first hurdle.

471

: 00:24:13

Because that was a nice hurdle to be at,

because actually that was the easy one!"

472

: 00:24:17

But, um, Yeah, it was, I wished a lot

of his first year away, because I just

473

: 00:24:22

didn't, I didn't enjoy it, because

they don't do anything, do they?

474

: 00:24:26

Between 0 and 1, like, it's a bit boring!

475

: 00:24:29

But actually, it wasn't.

476

: 00:24:31

It was the best time, and I really

wish I'd made the most of it.

477

: 00:24:35

So with her, I definitely made

the most of her first year.

478

: 00:24:38

Way more than I ever did with him.

479

: 00:24:40

But I thought, to be a good mum, you had

to sign up to all the classes, so, I would

480

: 00:24:45

just fill my day with all these classes

and it practically made me bankrupt.

481

: 00:24:48

Because I didn't need to do them, I could

have just been with him and gone to the

482

: 00:24:51

local library, but I thought, "that's

beneath me, I should be paying for these

483

: 00:24:55

classes, because that's what all the

484

: 00:24:57

yummy mummies do", and I'm like, yeah...

485

: 00:24:59

VIKKI: That's what you

see on social media.

486

: 00:25:02

And that's, don't know, do you

think there's a part of us that,

487

: 00:25:07

feels you need to compensate for

what you feel you're lacking?

488

: 00:25:12

Like, "if I don't get Freddy

Firefly, I'm not a good mum."

489

: 00:25:14

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah yeah precisely.

490

: 00:25:16

If I get a different bottle,

will I get judged for it?

491

: 00:25:18

If I put him in supermarket

clothing instead of a branding

492

: 00:25:21

set of clothing, am I a poor mum?

493

: 00:25:23

Yeah, absolutely.

494

: 00:25:24

I think there's unnecessary pressure

for you to give more than you can.

495

: 00:25:32

Because just being you,

for your child, is enough.

496

: 00:25:36

Just putting them in the push chair,

getting a bit of fresh air and

497

: 00:25:39

chatting to them, is more than enough.

498

: 00:25:42

And I don't know why we don't know this.

499

: 00:25:45

VIKKI: You don't need all these things.

500

: 00:25:47

I remember looking stupidly at

Instagram for like, packed lunch ideas.

501

: 00:25:53

You know, literally you see these

incredible bento boxes with...

502

: 00:25:56

KAVITA TREVENA: Oh don't!

503

: 00:25:57

VIKKI: ...like fruit kebabs and...

504

: 00:25:59

KAVITA TREVENA: I've

not got time for that.

505

: 00:26:00

Yeah, don't go down the bento hole

because those women are god knows what,

506

: 00:26:05

they're just a breed of their own!

507

: 00:26:07

Like, I don't understand, who has

time to do star shaped sandwiches

508

: 00:26:12

like it's, no, that's a no from me!

509

: 00:26:13

VIKKI: Yeah.

510

: 00:26:14

Oh god, I wish I'd met

you when I had a baby!

511

: 00:26:20

KAVITA TREVENA: I say this to

so many people, like it's...

512

: 00:26:20

if you could do a do over, you would

do it so differently, but you would

513

: 00:26:23

attract different people to your circle,

because you just don't have time for

514

: 00:26:29

people's BS, and I did get some lovely

friends from him, some of them I do

515

: 00:26:34

still keep in touch with, actually.

516

: 00:26:35

But, every time Rohan moved to a new

stage, I desperately seeked friendship.

517

: 00:26:42

So I've got some lovely friends when

he went to nursery, but I always

518

: 00:26:45

feel like it's me making the effort.

519

: 00:26:47

And then I've got some lovely

friends in school, so we're now

520

: 00:26:49

at the school era now, aren't we?

521

: 00:26:51

Love Taylor Swift, in our school era!

522

: 00:26:53

So I've got quite a few mum friends,

but there's one particular mum

523

: 00:26:56

friend, who lives down the road,

and she has literally been my rock.

524

: 00:27:01

And I think if it wasn't for her, I

would struggle this parenting phase.

525

: 00:27:08

And I quite often text her going, "oh

my god, why is he just telling me he

526

: 00:27:11

hates me and like shouting in my face".

527

: 00:27:13

She goes, "because you're his safe place",

and I think I always remember that.

528

: 00:27:16

Some children react in a way,

because you are their comfort.

529

: 00:27:20

And I always say to other people whose

kid's tantrum, I was like, "would

530

: 00:27:24

you rather they tantrum with you,

or in public, or with other people?"

531

: 00:27:29

And I always say "I'd rather he

do it with me, because he knows

532

: 00:27:32

I'm safe and I'll protect him."

533

: 00:27:34

I can't guarantee a teacher, or a nursery

worker, or a childminder will protect

534

: 00:27:39

him the way that I would as a mum.

535

: 00:27:42

And I always say this to my husband

as well, like, "would you rather he

536

: 00:27:44

scream and shout here, or scream and

shout in the middle of a supermarket?"

537

: 00:27:47

Like I'd rather he do it at home.

538

: 00:27:49

I've got that from the strength of

the friendships that I've built.

539

: 00:27:52

VIKKI: Would you like

to give her a shout out?

540

: 00:27:54

KAVITA TREVENA: Oh, Jo, she's Jo.

541

: 00:27:55

Yeah, I always call her Jo down the road.

542

: 00:27:57

So Jo, who lives down

the road, she's lovely.

543

: 00:27:59

She has literally become my rock.

544

: 00:28:01

She found me through Instagram

when we had a conversation.

545

: 00:28:04

And, she's that type of mum that

would organise me and always

546

: 00:28:09

check in, and make sure I'm okay.

547

: 00:28:11

And I always check in,

make sure she's okay.

548

: 00:28:14

Definitely someone I want in my

life, for the rest of my life,

549

: 00:28:18

and I will fight to keep her in

my life for the rest of my life.

550

: 00:28:20

And she knows that.

551

: 00:28:22

VIKKI: It's so important to have somebody

that you don't have to have a facade with.

552

: 00:28:25

KAVITA TREVENA: Oh definitely.

553

: 00:28:27

VIKKI: I wish I could prescribe a

'Jo down the road' for everybody!

554

: 00:28:30

KAVITA TREVENA: You just find someone

who gets it, yeah, it's important.

555

: 00:28:34

VIKKI: With your son, did you have P.N.D.

556

: 00:28:36

(postnatal depression),

was that diagnosed?

557

: 00:28:38

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah, so,

my health visitor came to

558

: 00:28:40

visit me before I had Rohan.

559

: 00:28:44

They come and do like a welfare check

before the baby's born, and so I met her.

560

: 00:28:49

And then she came and visited me after

Rohan was born, like I struggled with

561

: 00:28:53

my midwives, I had a terrible time

with my midwives, I kept fighting with

562

: 00:28:56

them, like, "can you give me this?

563

: 00:28:57

Can I have this?

564

: 00:28:58

Why are you not giving me this?"

565

: 00:29:00

And in the end I just gave up.

566

: 00:29:01

She came took one look at me,

and went, " Are you okay?"

567

: 00:29:07

And I was like, "No, I'm really not okay".

568

: 00:29:09

And it all just came out, and

she went, "Look, there's this

569

: 00:29:11

pilot scheme with C.A.M.H.S.

570

: 00:29:12

(Child and Adolescent

Mental Health Services)."

571

: 00:29:14

And Rohan was referred to a psychiatrist,

but I was the one who had the therapy.

572

: 00:29:20

So I would go once a week to the

hospital with a psychiatrist who

573

: 00:29:25

gave me one-on-one therapy for...

574

: 00:29:27

I think it was 12 weeks.

575

: 00:29:29

VIKKI: That's incredible.

576

: 00:29:30

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah, because my health

visitor noticed I needed something, And

577

: 00:29:33

she spotted those signs and she got me

fast tracked onto this pilot scheme.

578

: 00:29:37

VIKKI: That is so lucky!

579

: 00:29:39

KAVITA TREVENA: I was incredibly lucky,

yeah, and I, I thank her every day.

580

: 00:29:44

All the time, like, literally, she is the

woman who quite frankly saved my life.

581

: 00:29:49

And that is not an exaggeration.

582

: 00:29:51

So then, towards the end of the therapy,

I had to bring Rohan with me so they

583

: 00:29:55

could see what my bonding was like.

584

: 00:29:57

And it was fine, like, there was no

issues with my ability to care for my son.

585

: 00:30:02

It was the way I was feeling

that was the struggle to process.

586

: 00:30:07

So we went through all the therapy,

it worked well, and then I was

587

: 00:30:11

struggling to return back to work.

588

: 00:30:13

So I got six bonus sessions

with the therapist.

589

: 00:30:16

And she's like, "I don't know what's

wrong - you're an incredible mum.

590

: 00:30:19

Just be a little bit more

confident in yourself."

591

: 00:30:21

And I think we all need that chat.

592

: 00:30:24

So we had a few more sessions and

she's like, "look, these are the

593

: 00:30:26

tools, these are the resources".

594

: 00:30:27

Like "come on, you can do this."

595

: 00:30:29

And then at that point, The Unlikely Mummy

was like in the full swing of things and

596

: 00:30:33

helping people, and I was blogging quite a

lot, and sharing, and I went back to work.

597

: 00:30:37

And I really went downhill after

work, like, returning back to work

598

: 00:30:41

it was a terrible time for me.

599

: 00:30:43

And I was probably very difficult, as

a member of staff to come back with,

600

: 00:30:48

with everything that was going on.

601

: 00:30:50

And I remember I was told, like,

after I came back with my daughter,

602

: 00:30:54

I was told, like, "If you had told

us you had postnatal depression, we

603

: 00:30:59

would have put more things in place."

604

: 00:31:01

And I think I bit back and I was like,

"regardless of whether I had postnatal

605

: 00:31:03

depression, more things should be put in

place for mums that return back to work."

606

: 00:31:07

VIKKI: Full stop.

607

: 00:31:08

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah, regardless

of whether they've had PND,

608

: 00:31:10

postnatal depression or whatever,

more needs to be done for mums.

609

: 00:31:14

And I think that's the turning point

for me, for The Unlikely Mummy, was to

610

: 00:31:19

start fighting for mums, but I'm just

a one person band, I can't do it all.

611

: 00:31:24

I needed a way to do more with the

Unlikely Mummy - set up sessions,

612

: 00:31:28

set up classes - so I had a

plan to create a directory for

613

: 00:31:34

services in Bexley, where I live.

614

: 00:31:37

But no one would invest in it,

people wouldn't invest in it to

615

: 00:31:40

be part of this mum directory.

616

: 00:31:43

So I thought, you know what, I'm

going to put a marketplace on.

617

: 00:31:46

I invited businesses to come along.

618

: 00:31:48

They paid like £20 to have a market stall.

619

: 00:31:50

And it was really

successful, the first one.

620

: 00:31:53

We actually had an income of around

£600-700 in my first marketplace.

621

: 00:31:59

And I ran raffles, raffle prizes,

and I used that money to pay

622

: 00:32:05

for specialist breastfeeding

support and counselling for mums.

623

: 00:32:10

And I've also written a mindfulness book

that I self published, self printed,

624

: 00:32:14

and I sold copies of at my marketplace.

625

: 00:32:17

And I sold stuff that I've made and all

that money, goes back into the community.

626

: 00:32:22

Like, I've literally not taken

a penny from the community.

627

: 00:32:25

So all of the stuff I do is either from

fundraising, or funding, or I write

628

: 00:32:29

applications for funding pots of money.

629

: 00:32:32

So all the money I get from

that goes into the Unlikely

630

: 00:32:35

Mummy, so I can put classes on.

631

: 00:32:37

Mums get a lot, but they don't get

enough specialist or affordable.

632

: 00:32:41

So I've put on retreats, working with

other people, because I can't do it

633

: 00:32:45

myself, so I work with other people.

634

: 00:32:47

And then I've had, like, weekly wellness

classes, I've put on online sessions.

635

: 00:32:52

I set up my Facebook community, did a

whole mindfulness week, where I had people

636

: 00:32:58

come in and guest for me, all for free,

and they put on mindfulness classes,

637

: 00:33:04

art therapy sessions, they talk about

nutrition, they talked about exercise.

638

: 00:33:08

I had a woman who did three

exercise classes for me,

639

: 00:33:11

all on this Facebook group.

640

: 00:33:13

And I would send little self

care packages that I would sell.

641

: 00:33:17

And all this money comes

back in to give back.

642

: 00:33:20

The community has paid for three

women to have specialist counselling,

643

: 00:33:24

which is anything up to a £1000.

644

: 00:33:26

VIKKI: That in itself, is just huge.

645

: 00:33:29

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah, it's lovely and

it's specialist and I don't even know who

646

: 00:33:31

the women are, I just say, "this person

needs counselling, can you contact them?"

647

: 00:33:35

I almost don't want to know who the

people are, because that's for them,

648

: 00:33:39

and I know how private things can be.

649

: 00:33:43

I've paid for about five or six people

to have specialist breastfeeding,

650

: 00:33:47

or feeding or sleeping support

from various contacts that I've had.

651

: 00:33:50

contacts

652

: 00:33:50

that I've

653

: 00:33:51

VIKKI: had Again incredible.

654

: 00:33:53

It's like, if anybody's listened to the

first episode of season three, that's all

655

: 00:33:57

about breastfeeding trauma and about how..

656

: 00:34:00

KAVITA TREVENA: Breastfeeding's so hard.

657

: 00:34:00

... VIKKI: really, really, hard.

658

: 00:34:01

So for you to be able to put somebody

in touch with a specialist lactation

659

: 00:34:05

consultant, that's incredible.

660

: 00:34:09

KAVITA TREVENA: And to take the burden

off that cost, like, it's expensive.

661

: 00:34:12

Like it's to take that off of someone.

662

: 00:34:14

I feel like the Unlikely Mummy's got

a lot to still do, and a lot that

663

: 00:34:19

I want to still do with it, and,

um, I've had 20 people run for the

664

: 00:34:26

Unlikely Mummy, me included in that,

and I'm not a runner by any means.

665

: 00:34:30

VIKKI: This is a half marathon?

666

: 00:34:32

KAVITA TREVENA: The Big Half is

the London Marathon backwards.

667

: 00:34:36

So, it starts just by Tower Bridge,

and from Tower Bridge, you run the

668

: 00:34:40

route backwards, back to Greenwich.

669

: 00:34:43

So, where the London Marathon

starts at Greenwich, the half

670

: 00:34:46

marathon point is London Bridge,

you basically do it back to front.

671

: 00:34:48

VIKKI: Wow!

672

: 00:34:49

Were you always a runner?

673

: 00:34:51

KAVITA TREVENA: I'm not a runner.

674

: 00:34:52

Yeah, no, I'm not a runner at all.

675

: 00:34:54

I absolutely hate running!

676

: 00:34:56

VIKKI: (Laughs) That's a big thing!

677

: 00:34:58

KAVITA TREVENA: It's a big feat, yeah.

678

: 00:35:00

I don't even like running 5Ks.

679

: 00:35:01

I've only done two 5Ks in my life.

680

: 00:35:04

When I first signed up, my husband and

I were like, "Should we just you know,

681

: 00:35:08

shits and giggles, let's just try it?

682

: 00:35:11

See what it's like?"

683

: 00:35:12

So we ran from where we are

all the way to the O2 and back

684

: 00:35:15

again is a half marathon route.

685

: 00:35:18

And I did it in about three hours, 50

minutes because we walked, we talked, it

686

: 00:35:21

was nice time for us to spend together.

687

: 00:35:24

And then, yeah, I did the half

marathon on the day it was so hot.

688

: 00:35:28

Like I was pouring water

over my head, it was that hot.

689

: 00:35:31

But I did it.

690

: 00:35:32

And we've raised around £1300 this year.

691

: 00:35:34

VIKKI: That's amazing!

692

: 00:35:35

All for the Unlikely Mummy?

693

: 00:35:37

KAVITA TREVENA: All

for the Unlikely Mummy.

694

: 00:35:39

So this money that I've got is

ring fenced to support a forest

695

: 00:35:43

school with additional funding.

696

: 00:35:44

So it's part funded, I'm gonna top

it up to run a forest school for mums.

697

: 00:35:48

To do monthly mums retreat in a forest

school setting and for SEND (Special

698

: 00:35:51

Educational Needs and Disabilities)

children to support the parents.

699

: 00:35:54

They can them a little bit

of a respite, but also do

700

: 00:35:56

activities with their children.

701

: 00:35:57

VIKKI: God that's amazing!

702

: 00:35:59

KAVITA TREVENA: Getting in the

outdoors for anyone who has complex

703

: 00:36:02

needs is crucial, and I've worked

in a SEND environment, and I know

704

: 00:36:07

how crucial just being outside is.

705

: 00:36:09

And then an after school club, like

the generic side of a forest school.

706

: 00:36:12

So I'm supporting an incredibly lovely

local lady called Woodland Whisperers.

707

: 00:36:16

Um, shout out to Woodland

Whisperers, she's fab.

708

: 00:36:19

And I did forest school with her with

my son and she is literally incredible.

709

: 00:36:22

And then I've ring fenced some of, some

of it to carry on the breastfeeding,

710

: 00:36:28

lactation support and the counselling.

711

: 00:36:29

That's gonna be like an ongoing

underlining thing that will be

712

: 00:36:32

like your 'business as usual' for

the Unlikely Mummy, because that's

713

: 00:36:35

something that means a lot to me.

714

: 00:36:36

Yeah.

715

: 00:36:37

And then the rest of it is gonna

contribute into starting a Mums

716

: 00:36:42

Walking Club, which sounds...

717

: 00:36:44

"Why do you need money

to start a walking club?"

718

: 00:36:46

But you do, you need money to make sure

it's safe, and to make sure people will

719

: 00:36:51

join us, and make it an environment that

people can create a community for them.

720

: 00:36:56

So I want to grow the Unlikely Mummy,

and I think walking community would

721

: 00:36:59

be a really good way to grow that.

722

: 00:37:02

And I'm a qualified walk leader, so I

don't even have to do anything, I just

723

: 00:37:06

need to use what I already know, because

my background's sports, so I can use all

724

: 00:37:10

that and start another whole community.

725

: 00:37:13

And then eventually some of those

walkers might become runners, and run

726

: 00:37:16

other big events, and then draw some

more money into the Unlikely Mummy.

727

: 00:37:21

VIKKI: So for the walking club,

can mums bring their babies

728

: 00:37:23

in buggies, pushchairs, prams?

729

: 00:37:26

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah, so hopefully,

where I've got a full time job, I'm

730

: 00:37:31

very limited in my time, so I've

already - because I've got amazing

731

: 00:37:34

friends - I've already had four

people signed up to lead walks for me.

732

: 00:37:39

One of them, obviously, being my mum!

733

: 00:37:41

And she's gonna take the older mums.

734

: 00:37:43

And she's gonna do that, and I'll

set her off in the park somewhere.

735

: 00:37:46

I've got another mum who

wants to set up herself.

736

: 00:37:49

I was like, "just give me a

minute and let me plan something.

737

: 00:37:51

And actually, you can run it

and we can run it together."

738

: 00:37:53

And she's called Nicola, who does Tiny

Talks, which is baby sign language.

739

: 00:37:57

And she wants to set one up.

740

: 00:37:58

So that would be my mums and

babies, in the pushchairs.

741

: 00:38:01

Jo Down The Road is obviously

going to do one, and she'll

742

: 00:38:04

do the more advanced walkers.

743

: 00:38:06

VIKKI: Love Jo Down The Road!

744

: 00:38:07

KAVITA TREVENA: We all

love Jo Down The Road.

745

: 00:38:08

So she'll be my quicker, more advanced

walkers, because she's super quick.

746

: 00:38:12

And then I've got a friend of

mine at work, who isn't a mum,

747

: 00:38:16

but she just loves what I do.

748

: 00:38:17

and her boyfriend lives down the

road, and she wants to take a group.

749

: 00:38:21

So we'll have it at different,

various times and dates, and,

750

: 00:38:23

hopefully as it starts growing

more will want to get involved.

751

: 00:38:27

VIKKI: Yeah.

752

: 00:38:27

KAVITA TREVENA: And it will

just grow and grow and grow.

753

: 00:38:29

But I don't want it to cost people money.

754

: 00:38:31

I want it to be free.

755

: 00:38:32

So these walks will be in

Bexley because I'm a Bexley mum.

756

: 00:38:36

So they'll be close to where I can get

to and where everyone will get to, but

757

: 00:38:40

that doesn't mean I can't expand it.

758

: 00:38:41

So there's options to...

759

: 00:38:43

other people can take the model

and use it and work with it.

760

: 00:38:46

And as long as you have my little logo

on it to say that is, it started with me,

761

: 00:38:49

I don't really care what you do with it.

762

: 00:38:50

Like I will help you

nurture it and you can grow.

763

: 00:38:53

And I do get people who stop me

around the community now going, "Are

764

: 00:38:56

you Kavita, the Unlikely Mummy?"

765

: 00:38:58

and I was like, "yeah, that's me, hi!"

766

: 00:39:00

So people are starting to recognise me.

767

: 00:39:02

So if people want to come along

when I launch it, I'm gonna launch,

768

: 00:39:05

a pilot so I can get photos, and

then, really get the momentum going.

769

: 00:39:09

I really want this to grow.

770

: 00:39:11

And if only one person turns

up, I've helped one person.

771

: 00:39:14

VIKKI: That's it.

772

: 00:39:14

I mean, that is exactly

why I did this podcast.

773

: 00:39:17

I just thought if I make one

person feel less alone...

774

: 00:39:20

KAVITA TREVENA: It's amazing, isn't it?

775

: 00:39:21

VIKKI: ...Or offer them, you know,

a sense of hope that you're not

776

: 00:39:25

always going to feel like this.

777

: 00:39:26

You are going to get through it

and you will get to the other side.

778

: 00:39:29

And from my own experience and from

the experience of lots of people that

779

: 00:39:33

I've spoken to, that actually, though

it's horrendous and traumatic to go

780

: 00:39:40

through, you will actually look back

realise there are parts of it that

781

: 00:39:46

have actually grown you as a person.

782

: 00:39:49

KAVITA TREVENA: Oh, God, yeah.

783

: 00:39:50

Did you know what, there's

so many friendships I've made

784

: 00:39:51

out of The Unlikely Mummy.

785

: 00:39:53

You don't realise the impact you're

having, because you're in the thick of

786

: 00:39:57

it, that actually someone's watching you.

787

: 00:39:59

And they find you, amazes me when

people say I'm inspirational,

788

: 00:40:04

like I don't see that at all.

789

: 00:40:05

VIKKI: I think you're fantastic!

790

: 00:40:07

KAVITA TREVENA: Thank you (laughs).

791

: 00:40:08

VIKKI: I'm such a fan of

everything that you're doing.

792

: 00:40:11

Yeah, you can tell

everything's done with heart.

793

: 00:40:14

Did you have like a negative

experience when you had Maya as well?

794

: 00:40:18

KAVITA TREVENA: So, funnily

enough I put things in place,

795

: 00:40:20

as soon as I was pregnant.

796

: 00:40:22

So as soon as I was pregnant,

I told my health visitor, So,

797

: 00:40:25

it was lockdown, wasn't it?

798

: 00:40:27

So, we were in the thick of

the pandemic at this point.

799

: 00:40:30

Just got announced lockdown.

800

: 00:40:31

So, I, to give a bit of backstory to

me, when I had Rohan and the postnatal

801

: 00:40:36

depression, I then, developed psoriasis as

a way of my body completely shutting down.

802

: 00:40:43

So it's an autoimmune disease where

your body kind of attacks itself.

803

: 00:40:46

And I come up in what can

only be described as scabs.

804

: 00:40:50

You scratch you scratch you

scratch, and it's like your skin.

805

: 00:40:53

VIKKI: A bit like eczema?

806

: 00:40:54

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah.

807

: 00:40:55

But it's not curable.

808

: 00:40:56

Once you have it, you have it for life.

809

: 00:40:58

So my body was covered like 80%

810

: 00:41:01

VIKKI: Oh my God, that

must have been so horrible.

811

: 00:41:04

KAVITA TREVENA: It is

itchy and it's not nice.

812

: 00:41:05

And it was all over my hair

and it was, it was everywhere.

813

: 00:41:08

But it was as a result, because

of the postnatal depression, the

814

: 00:41:11

way my body reacted to everything.

815

: 00:41:13

So I went specialist dermatologist

and I'm on medication.

816

: 00:41:17

So to have Maya, I had to come off of this

medication, which was absolutely grim.

817

: 00:41:22

it was horrible, but if it was in

my system, and I fell pregnant, was

818

: 00:41:27

likely that the baby could be born

with complications and side effects.

819

: 00:41:32

So I had to work with my dermatologist

to get it out of my system for

820

: 00:41:37

a period of three months before

I could even try for a baby.

821

: 00:41:42

So, we came off medication in the January.

822

: 00:41:44

In the March, we went in lockdown.

823

: 00:41:46

I was like, Oh, we're not

going to try for a baby now.

824

: 00:41:48

So we waited to see what

the landscape was like.

825

: 00:41:49

And then we tried and we fell

pregnant with Maya very quickly.

826

: 00:41:52

We were very blessed because

I know lots of families and

827

: 00:41:56

partners and people struggle.

828

: 00:41:57

So we were very blessed, but I also

made some lifestyle changes as well.

829

: 00:42:01

A lot of weight was lost.

830

: 00:42:02

A lot of dietary stuff was changed.

831

: 00:42:05

The minute I fell pregnant,

I said, right, I want to make

832

: 00:42:08

sure my counselling's in place.

833

: 00:42:10

I want to make sure my

health visitor's in place.

834

: 00:42:13

I want to make sure my midwife is the

same midwife who understands and will will

835

: 00:42:20

be there for me, and I see the same one.

836

: 00:42:22

VIKKI: So it's like you had a circuit

breaker, so that before anything

837

: 00:42:26

escalated to the previous level?

838

: 00:42:28

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah.

839

: 00:42:29

It was all in.

840

: 00:42:30

But I think, also, being a second time

mum, you advocate more for yourself,

841

: 00:42:34

and you don't put up with any BS.

842

: 00:42:36

You don't put up with anyone

telling you, " no, no, no."

843

: 00:42:39

I was like "yes, yes, yes, you can".

844

: 00:42:41

And I fought for it.

845

: 00:42:43

I got the same midwife throughout,

so actually that helps, because

846

: 00:42:46

obviously I'm flagged on my files,

it helps a mum with mental health

847

: 00:42:49

concerns to have that consistency.

848

: 00:42:51

VIKKI: Yeah, my goodness.

849

: 00:42:53

Yeah, that's amazing.

850

: 00:42:54

KAVITA TREVENA: It was fantastic.

851

: 00:42:55

And then obviously, my health visitor

came pre visit, and then the therapy

852

: 00:43:01

that I requested through MIND, because

everyone knows what the waiting

853

: 00:43:04

list is like for MIND, and they're

brilliant, The reason why they

854

: 00:43:07

have a big waiting list is because

people need that service, isn't it?

855

: 00:43:10

So, Maya was born, and I had a phone

call, like, three days later, from

856

: 00:43:16

the site, from that therapist saying,

"your time's come now to be having your

857

: 00:43:21

therapy, blah, blah, blah", and I was

probably quite rude to her, because I

858

: 00:43:24

was in the midst of just having a baby.

859

: 00:43:25

And I was like, "oh, fantastic, can

you call me back tomorrow when I'm

860

: 00:43:28

less busy", basically, and I had

eight weeks of therapy with her.

861

: 00:43:33

VIKKI: Wow, that's amazing.

862

: 00:43:35

KAVITA TREVENA: And that's when

I was diagnosed with PTSD (Post

863

: 00:43:37

Traumatic Stress Disorder) for Rohan.

864

: 00:43:39

VIKKI: Wow!

865

: 00:43:40

This is trauma that had been

with you for a long time then?

866

: 00:43:43

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah.

867

: 00:43:44

And I think I've had nothing with Maya.

868

: 00:43:47

I had an equally traumatic birth with

her, where, both my babies had their

869

: 00:43:52

cords wrapped around their neck.

870

: 00:43:53

VIKKI: Stan did as well.

871

: 00:43:54

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah.

872

: 00:43:55

Yeah.

873

: 00:43:55

It's quite common, I think.

874

: 00:43:56

But again, no one talks about it.

875

: 00:43:58

So I pushed, with Rohan, I got

to nine and a half centimeters.

876

: 00:44:02

Then we had the, you know, "you both

need to have emergency, you could die".

877

: 00:44:06

With Maya, I got to 10cm.

878

: 00:44:09

She kept pulling in

while I kept pushing out.

879

: 00:44:12

Turns out the cord was round her.

880

: 00:44:13

She wasn't as an emergency,

but I still had an emergency.

881

: 00:44:17

But I think also, for a second

time mum, you just know.

882

: 00:44:20

You fight more, you understand

it more, you got your boundaries

883

: 00:44:24

more, you say no to visitors.

884

: 00:44:27

But I also think my hospital care was

better because it was covid lockdown and

885

: 00:44:31

no one was allowed in hospitals, really.

886

: 00:44:33

Roger wasn't even allowed to stay with

me outside of visiting hours, so I

887

: 00:44:37

think you had the midwives, you had

the one-on-one care with the midwives,

888

: 00:44:39

so I think I had better postcare.

889

: 00:44:42

And then the therapy helped, so yeah,

the PTSD was diagnosed for Rohan after

890

: 00:44:49

Maya was born, which I, it blows my mind.

891

: 00:44:51

VIKKI: Wow.

892

: 00:44:53

KAVITA TREVENA: And I had to unpick

a lot of trauma, but it didn't

893

: 00:44:57

affect my bonding with Maya at all.

894

: 00:45:00

In fact, we're quite strong, me and her.

895

: 00:45:02

I've got a strong bond with both

my children, and it's not just

896

: 00:45:04

because she's my little girl.

897

: 00:45:05

I think second baby, whether

it was a boy or a girl, would

898

: 00:45:08

have been the same regardless.

899

: 00:45:11

So yeah, I think I fought a lot to get

where I am, and I think I grew confidence

900

: 00:45:17

from having The Unlikely Mummy that I

used my platform to project the positivity

901

: 00:45:23

of pregnancy with Maya, and my page is

more positive than it is negative, like

902

: 00:45:30

I'll look at something, but I'll look

at an answer to it, and I, look to give

903

: 00:45:35

out more resources and support, and I

share more support rather than share a

904

: 00:45:38

lot of the negative side of parenting,

it's more flip it to the positive side.

905

: 00:45:43

Which is a journey for me as well.

906

: 00:45:46

It's three years of doom and

gloom and then she comes along

907

: 00:45:49

and it's brilliant sunshine.

908

: 00:45:50

But Rohan wasn't doom and gloom, it

was my mind that was doom and gloom.

909

: 00:45:54

I think that's it's important for us to

remember it's not the baby, it's you,

910

: 00:45:58

VIKKI: That's the thing, isn't it?

911

: 00:46:00

KAVITA TREVENA: And I think,

therapy should be prescribed.

912

: 00:46:03

Even private therapy, like, I

think it should be prescribed,

913

: 00:46:05

everyone should get, and I...

914

: 00:46:07

this is something I really want

to fight for, actually, is I think

915

: 00:46:09

every mum should automatically given,

like, a month of therapy to unpick.

916

: 00:46:18

VIKKI: Yeah.

917

: 00:46:18

Yeah.

918

: 00:46:19

KAVITA TREVENA: And whether you need

it or not, I think it should be a

919

: 00:46:22

general prescription to everyone.

920

: 00:46:24

VIKKI: Just to sort of talk through

that transition, , like nobody

921

: 00:46:28

told me how hard it was going to

be or how your emotions fluctuate,

922

: 00:46:32

just, you know, even from alone.

923

: 00:46:34

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah,

it's important, isn't it?

924

: 00:46:36

And I think there needs to

be more resources out there.

925

: 00:46:40

I've noticed a lot on social, because of

what I follow, There's this conference,

926

: 00:46:45

and this conference, and now there's like,

conference with this certain demographic,

927

: 00:46:50

and this, and I'm like, "yeah, you can

have a conference, and the same people

928

: 00:46:53

attend it, and the same people that

have got the same interests attend it,

929

: 00:46:58

but you're not addressing the problem".

930

: 00:46:59

If you're addressing the problem,

you wouldn't need the conferences

931

: 00:47:02

to have those conversations, and I

also think sometimes funding goes to

932

: 00:47:06

the people that shout the loudest,

and I think, As much as people talk

933

: 00:47:11

to people on the ground, are they?

934

: 00:47:13

If they did, you would know there's a gap

in understanding gestational diabetes.

935

: 00:47:18

You would know that it's not just,

and they are very important and

936

: 00:47:22

I'm not dismissing it, but it's not

just black mums that are affected.

937

: 00:47:26

Asian mums are affected.

938

: 00:47:28

And I think I had this conversation

with My Maternal Voices saying,

939

: 00:47:32

"Yeah, brilliant, you've got that.

940

: 00:47:33

But what about the Asian mums?"

941

: 00:47:34

We're also at real great risk.

942

: 00:47:37

And there is also a barrier for us, but

yet we're not getting any of the money.

943

: 00:47:41

And we're not getting any of that

funding to support Asian mums.

944

: 00:47:45

So that's why the Unlikely Mummy does

support a lot of cultural work going

945

: 00:47:50

on and I want to make sure everyone's

voices are heard and I think that's

946

: 00:47:57

important, but actually people need

to put money in different places

947

: 00:48:01

to make sure all mums get support.

948

: 00:48:04

we've all suffered trauma and I'm

not saying someone's trauma is more

949

: 00:48:07

than someone else's trauma, but I

think everyone's trauma is valid and

950

: 00:48:12

I think that's important and if we

keep needing to keep the conversations

951

: 00:48:17

open, that makes sense in my head.

952

: 00:48:20

Yeah.

953

: 00:48:21

VIKKI: That sort of brings us on to, you

know, your background and your community.

954

: 00:48:26

Was there a barrier to being able to

talk about your mental health struggles.

955

: 00:48:31

Was your community supportive?

956

: 00:48:33

So my, um, I always feel, Mental

health now is a subject that

957

: 00:48:38

is very well spoken about.

958

: 00:48:40

it's almost like people have jumped

on the mental health bandwagon

959

: 00:48:43

because someone's seen something

and they've pumped money into it.

960

: 00:48:46

But before, six years ago,

no one really spoke about it.

961

: 00:48:50

It was like, "oh, be quiet now."

962

: 00:48:52

Like, "yeah, yeah, yeah, you've got

postnatal, like, you're miserable".

963

: 00:48:55

Like, "enjoy the fact

that you've got a baby".

964

: 00:48:57

Like, "be grateful you've got a baby."

965

: 00:48:59

That's why I think the community

got some, like, traction quite

966

: 00:49:02

quickly because actually more

people were feeling that way.

967

: 00:49:05

But particularly in my culture, there's

no word, really, for mental health.

968

: 00:49:10

And where I've married, a white

person, and I'm in, like, that world,

969

: 00:49:16

I'm fortunate that he understands it.

970

: 00:49:18

But I worry, had I married into an Indian

culture, would I have got that support?

971

: 00:49:23

I can't answer that, but I don't

know, because there's no word for it.

972

: 00:49:28

And I know plenty of Asian mums that

have had postnatal depression that have

973

: 00:49:30

just, "oh yeah, yeah, we had it, and we

just got on with it, because there was no

974

: 00:49:36

support", but I've been reading statistics

around Asian women that have died from

975

: 00:49:41

suicide in the first year because they

were undiagnosed postnatal depression

976

: 00:49:46

because no one would listen to them.

977

: 00:49:48

it's ridiculous, like, I don't get it,

like, I've been fighting and fighting,

978

: 00:49:51

and I went to my GP after Rohan was

born for my 6-8 week check, and I

979

: 00:49:55

said, "oh, I'm having this", I was,

I was really proud of it, like, "I'm

980

: 00:49:57

having this specialist counselling

because I've got postnatal depression"

981

: 00:50:01

goes, "Oh, it's just baby blues.

982

: 00:50:02

I'm sure you'll get over it".

983

: 00:50:04

And I was like, "but

I'm already in therapy!"

984

: 00:50:06

Oh my god.

985

: 00:50:07

KAVITA TREVENA: And, and I've

obviously spoken about this on

986

: 00:50:09

NCT National Childbirth Trust

for the 6-8 week, GP check.

987

: 00:50:13

And even now I'm like, that

is a voice that is in my head.

988

: 00:50:16

"Oh, I'll just get over it".

989

: 00:50:17

And I'm quite strong now.

990

: 00:50:20

I wasn't strong then, but how

many other women From healthcare

991

: 00:50:24

professionals, have been told that, or

from midwives, or from health visitors.

992

: 00:50:28

You get some real amazing ones, and then

you get some other ones that, and I was

993

: 00:50:33

talking to a colleague the other day

saying, you only ever hear the complaints,

994

: 00:50:37

you never hear the compliments.

995

: 00:50:39

So that one complaint would ruin a

service, but actually you've got nine

996

: 00:50:44

other mums that have had a brilliant

experience, but you'll only hear the

997

: 00:50:47

voice of the one mum that didn't, and

that's obviously what we've got to change.

998

: 00:50:51

But mental health isn't something

you just get over, you have to

999

: 00:50:56

have professional intervention.

: 1000

00:50:59,594 --> 00:51:05,574

Or, you've got to have some real strong

belief in yourself that you can get

: 1001

00:51:05,574 --> 00:51:08,734

through it, but you can't do that on

your own, and if anyone has done that

: 1002

00:51:08,744 --> 00:51:12,284

on their own, please contact me, because

I'd love to know how, but I genuinely

: 1003

00:51:12,284 --> 00:51:15,024

think you need support, whether it's

professionally, through friends,

: 1004

00:51:15,034 --> 00:51:20,084

through books, or whatever, because

watching TV shows still trigger me.

: 1005

00:51:20,554 --> 00:51:24,004

There's certain things I can't watch,

because I'm like, I can't do that.

: 1006

00:51:24,994 --> 00:51:29,554

Like, you see things that pop up, like

I have to turn it over, and I feel like

: 1007

00:51:29,554 --> 00:51:34,599

I'm at a good place now, and I've had

enough therapy, But things still trigger.

: 1008

00:51:35,484 --> 00:51:37,354

And I don't think we ever get over it.

: 1009

00:51:37,994 --> 00:51:41,374

if you do ever get over it, let

me know your secret, because I'd

: 1010

00:51:41,374 --> 00:51:42,794

like to bottle it up and sell it.

: 1011

00:51:43,597 --> 00:51:44,927

I don't think there is a fix.

: 1012

00:51:45,374 --> 00:51:46,604

Because we're not broken.

: 1013

00:51:48,021 --> 00:51:49,231

We're not broken people.

: 1014

00:51:49,636 --> 00:51:53,689

We are just finding our way and

There's no cure for it, is there?

: 1015

00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,149

There's just, work through it.

: 1016

00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:03,713

VIKKI: How utterly invalidating and

dismissive was that response from your GP.

: 1017

00:52:04,422 --> 00:52:04,812

KAVITA TREVENA: Hmm.

: 1018

00:52:04,948 --> 00:52:10,678

VIKKI: And you just think of all the

people, and especially mums, who are

: 1019

00:52:10,678 --> 00:52:16,348

feeling utterly wretched, utterly

vulnerable, and the bravery it takes to

: 1020

00:52:16,348 --> 00:52:21,048

say, "actually, I'm not okay, and that

I need some help, that I'm struggling",

: 1021

00:52:21,078 --> 00:52:23,518

and then to have that dismissed

: 1022

00:52:23,727 --> 00:52:24,507

KAVITA TREVENA: It's hard, isn't it?

: 1023

00:52:24,788 --> 00:52:28,308

VIKKI: I remember telling a health

visitor, you know, "I've got postnatal

: 1024

00:52:28,328 --> 00:52:32,898

depression, I'm desperate", and

they were just like, "stop crying,

: 1025

00:52:32,948 --> 00:52:34,358

it'll affect your breast milk".

: 1026

00:52:35,342 --> 00:52:36,082

KAVITA TREVENA: I was told that,

: 1027

00:52:36,092 --> 00:52:36,682

actually.

: 1028

00:52:37,572 --> 00:52:39,912

If you're emotional, your breast

milk's emotional, therefore

: 1029

00:52:39,912 --> 00:52:40,762

your baby's emotional."

: 1030

00:52:40,762 --> 00:52:41,062

I was like, "What?

: 1031

00:52:41,322 --> 00:52:41,412

No!"

: 1032

00:52:41,823 --> 00:52:42,033

VIKKI: What?!

: 1033

00:52:42,492 --> 00:52:43,032

KAVITA TREVENA: Probably, but

: 1034

00:52:43,032 --> 00:52:43,412

no.

: 1035

00:52:43,843 --> 00:52:44,703

VIKKI: Oh, God.

: 1036

00:52:45,022 --> 00:52:45,512

"

KAVITA TREVENA: don't tell me that.

: 1037

00:52:45,982 --> 00:52:46,912

It's gonna make me cry more".

: 1038

00:52:47,852 --> 00:52:48,342

Nuts!

: 1039

00:52:48,353 --> 00:52:52,823

VIKKI: Yeah, anyway, but it's wonderful

that you had the help that you did.

: 1040

00:52:53,293 --> 00:52:58,373

And I think it is so important, the

work that you do in being able to sort

: 1041

00:52:58,373 --> 00:53:03,046

of spread that message, that you can

get through it and, basically offering

: 1042

00:53:03,046 --> 00:53:07,466

that hand of help you know, to anybody

that's struggling, that you're not

: 1043

00:53:07,486 --> 00:53:12,211

alone and that actually it's a common

experience that you're going through.

: 1044

00:53:12,269 --> 00:53:13,049

KAVITA TREVENA: Oh gosh, yeah.

: 1045

00:53:14,359 --> 00:53:19,749

If you are alone, then you need to find me

and this community, and your community.

: 1046

00:53:19,799 --> 00:53:21,399

because there's plenty out

there who can help you.

: 1047

00:53:21,399 --> 00:53:21,909

You're never alone.

: 1048

00:53:22,724 --> 00:53:23,134

Never.

: 1049

00:53:24,334 --> 00:53:26,004

And if you are alone, that's

when you need to start reaching

: 1050

00:53:26,004 --> 00:53:27,850

out, because we will help you.

: 1051

00:53:28,578 --> 00:53:32,241

VIKKI: I'm such a fan of everything

that you're doing and you can

: 1052

00:53:32,241 --> 00:53:33,661

tell everything's done with heart.

: 1053

00:53:34,563 --> 00:53:35,473

KAVITA TREVENA: I try to.

: 1054

00:53:35,473 --> 00:53:38,023

VIKKI: how the hell you do

it all on top of, did you say

: 1055

00:53:38,023 --> 00:53:39,193

your working full time as well?

: 1056

00:53:39,223 --> 00:53:40,698

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah so I work full time.

: 1057

00:53:41,263 --> 00:53:42,773

VIKKI: And mum to two kids?

: 1058

00:53:42,803 --> 00:53:43,373

What the hell?

: 1059

00:53:43,423 --> 00:53:47,975

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah, and then I do a lot

of consultancy work on the side, but I

: 1060

00:53:47,975 --> 00:53:50,935

can't do it without the people around me,

so if it wasn't for like my husband being

: 1061

00:53:50,935 --> 00:53:55,585

very hands on, and working very locally

now, and being home for the kids...

: 1062

00:53:55,665 --> 00:53:57,545

and we still have kid time, we

still have our weekends, and we

: 1063

00:53:57,545 --> 00:53:58,515

still spend time with the kids.

: 1064

00:53:58,875 --> 00:54:00,515

My parents do support a lot.

: 1065

00:54:01,195 --> 00:54:03,555

My in laws are amazing.

: 1066

00:54:03,775 --> 00:54:06,215

They do the school pick

ups and they feed my kids.

: 1067

00:54:07,076 --> 00:54:07,476

Do you know what?

: 1068

00:54:07,516 --> 00:54:08,896

I was thinking about this the other day.

: 1069

00:54:08,896 --> 00:54:10,266

I always fell asleep.

: 1070

00:54:10,286 --> 00:54:11,416

I'm linking this, I promise.

: 1071

00:54:11,416 --> 00:54:13,786

I always fell asleep

during Game of Thrones.

: 1072

00:54:14,246 --> 00:54:14,726

Always.

: 1073

00:54:15,076 --> 00:54:19,266

I really like Game of Thrones, but

I think there was so much going

: 1074

00:54:19,266 --> 00:54:22,906

on, and as a mum, we have so much

going on, my brain just used to

: 1075

00:54:22,906 --> 00:54:25,446

shut off, and I'd just go to sleep.

: 1076

00:54:25,446 --> 00:54:27,136

I couldn't process anything.

: 1077

00:54:27,556 --> 00:54:30,726

So now, because I think I take on

too much, and I think we did this pre

: 1078

00:54:30,726 --> 00:54:35,388

chat before we started recording, the

reason why I do so much is because

: 1079

00:54:35,388 --> 00:54:37,760

the minute I stop, I will think.

: 1080

00:54:38,260 --> 00:54:41,770

So when you asked me about my birthing

story and am I okay to talk about it, I'm

: 1081

00:54:41,820 --> 00:54:46,220

absolutely okay to talk about it, but I

think I stopped and thought about it, and

: 1082

00:54:46,220 --> 00:54:50,830

that's why I started to get emotional,

because I gave my brain a moment to stop.

: 1083

00:54:51,326 --> 00:54:52,146

VIKKI: Mm, yeah.

: 1084

00:54:52,146 --> 00:54:55,990

KAVITA TREVENA: And I'm scared that

if I stop, I will stop being the

: 1085

00:54:55,990 --> 00:55:00,750

bubbly me that everyone sees and

I'll be that person who's labelled

: 1086

00:55:00,750 --> 00:55:05,975

as having postnatal depression and

post traumatic stress disorder, and

: 1087

00:55:05,975 --> 00:55:07,505

I don't want to be defined as that.

: 1088

00:55:07,881 --> 00:55:10,441

Because I know when I spoke about

mental health with people before, they

: 1089

00:55:10,441 --> 00:55:14,791

roll their eyes, and I remember an

old manager of mine said, "is that all

: 1090

00:55:14,791 --> 00:55:17,751

you want to be known about, as that

person who had mental health problems?"

: 1091

00:55:17,912 --> 00:55:19,202

VIKKI: Wow, what a thing to say!

: 1092

00:55:19,202 --> 00:55:22,496

KAVITA TREVENA: And I was like, that's

not what I want to be known for.

: 1093

00:55:22,546 --> 00:55:28,306

I want to be known for the woman who had

mental health problems, concerns, issues,

: 1094

00:55:28,306 --> 00:55:30,801

or whatever it's called, and overcome it.

: 1095

00:55:31,531 --> 00:55:33,401

And helped, and advocated.

: 1096

00:55:33,701 --> 00:55:35,421

And that is what The Unlikely Mummy is.

: 1097

00:55:35,851 --> 00:55:42,051

The Unlikely Mummy is there to give

people space, and a voice, and say, "you

: 1098

00:55:42,051 --> 00:55:45,941

know what, I'm not ashamed, like, I'm

not ashamed of what I'm doing, I need

: 1099

00:55:45,941 --> 00:55:48,871

help, and I know I can get it from this,

and it's gonna make me a better person".

: 1100

00:55:49,580 --> 00:55:54,080

I will literally sacrifice everything

if someone comes to me from the

: 1101

00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:55,240

community, I'll put that first.

: 1102

00:55:56,270 --> 00:56:01,030

Because, how lonely is it to be a

mum, especially a first time mum, when

: 1103

00:56:01,030 --> 00:56:02,829

you've not, got a clue, you don't know.

: 1104

00:56:03,679 --> 00:56:05,929

And if someone understands that

and gets that, why shouldn't

: 1105

00:56:05,949 --> 00:56:07,309

they be recognised for it?

: 1106

00:56:07,989 --> 00:56:10,429

So I had someone say, "you just

put yourselves up for all these

: 1107

00:56:10,429 --> 00:56:12,749

awards, it's all about you", and

I was like "this really isn't".

: 1108

00:56:13,259 --> 00:56:18,032

So I stopped promoting or

sharing that I've won awards.

: 1109

00:56:18,032 --> 00:56:21,972

Like, when I won the Coronation

Award, and I've become a Coronation

: 1110

00:56:21,972 --> 00:56:23,752

Champion, that is flipping huge.

: 1111

00:56:24,282 --> 00:56:28,152

500 people in the country got that award.

: 1112

00:56:28,152 --> 00:56:30,642

I still, I still don't know

to this day who nominated me.

: 1113

00:56:31,242 --> 00:56:31,572

I don't know.

: 1114

00:56:32,022 --> 00:56:36,080

And, I got a certificate signed by King

Charles, and I got a little, like, medal.

: 1115

00:56:37,323 --> 00:56:39,023

VIKKI: That's incredible - you

should feel so proud!

: 1116

00:56:39,296 --> 00:56:41,543

KAVITA TREVENA: It's lovely, and

you know what, the other, that goes

: 1117

00:56:41,543 --> 00:56:44,103

in the same level for me as when...

: 1118

00:56:44,638 --> 00:56:46,578

I think you've had Eve Canavan

as a guest on your show.

: 1119

00:56:46,764 --> 00:56:48,514

VIKKI: Oh, I love Eve, I'm such a fan!

: 1120

00:56:48,514 --> 00:56:51,638

KAVITA TREVENA: She is amazing

and I had such amazing banter with

: 1121

00:56:51,638 --> 00:56:55,598

her online and she asked me to do

her Maternal Mental Health Week.

: 1122

00:56:56,008 --> 00:56:59,408

And I did a mindfulness session and

she asked me when I was pregnant with

: 1123

00:56:59,408 --> 00:57:00,328

Maya and I was like, "you know what?

: 1124

00:57:00,358 --> 00:57:01,028

I'd love to."

: 1125

00:57:01,351 --> 00:57:04,891

I sat upstairs in my bedroom, I did this

whole mindfulness session, and I think

: 1126

00:57:04,891 --> 00:57:06,508

it's had something like 10, 000 views.

: 1127

00:57:06,508 --> 00:57:11,281

Maternal Mental Health Week is huge,

isn't it And I did that, and I had

: 1128

00:57:11,281 --> 00:57:16,871

someone contact me from Facebook, like

a year or so later, going, "I found

: 1129

00:57:16,871 --> 00:57:23,604

you because my therapist uses your

mindfulness video as part of our session".

: 1130

00:57:24,686 --> 00:57:25,066

I was like, "what?

: 1131

00:57:25,086 --> 00:57:25,676

What you on about?"

: 1132

00:57:25,686 --> 00:57:26,606

Like, "hang on a minute!"

: 1133

00:57:26,796 --> 00:57:31,026

But that week, the Maternal Mental

Health Week for Eve and her colleagues,

: 1134

00:57:31,636 --> 00:57:33,346

absolutely changed my confidence.

: 1135

00:57:34,151 --> 00:57:35,401

I think that was a turning point for me.

: 1136

00:57:35,401 --> 00:57:38,651

So something like that, and

then winning an award, to me,

: 1137

00:57:38,661 --> 00:57:41,031

is on par, because I'm helping.

: 1138

00:57:41,481 --> 00:57:45,431

I'm helping thousands of

people and it's incredible.

: 1139

00:57:45,481 --> 00:57:48,110

VIKKI: Absolutely and you will

never know the ripple effect...

: 1140

00:57:48,110 --> 00:57:48,680

KAVITA TREVENA: ...Of what that's done.

: 1141

00:57:48,772 --> 00:57:48,842

Yeah.

: 1142

00:57:48,842 --> 00:57:51,172

This is what I mean about social

media can be really, really

: 1143

00:57:51,172 --> 00:57:52,582

good, and really, really bad.

: 1144

00:57:53,022 --> 00:57:56,922

And I've done an interview on

LBC radio about the impacts on

: 1145

00:57:56,932 --> 00:57:59,082

mental health, and I, I love that

little interview, it was great.

: 1146

00:57:59,547 --> 00:58:02,207

And I got lots of people

contacting me as a result of that,

: 1147

00:58:02,237 --> 00:58:03,937

agreeing with what I was saying.

: 1148

00:58:04,417 --> 00:58:08,267

But social media has also been

positive for me, so there's um, a lady

: 1149

00:58:08,267 --> 00:58:10,827

I speak to on Instagram called Dr.

: 1150

00:58:10,827 --> 00:58:11,547

Kimberley.

: 1151

00:58:11,894 --> 00:58:14,804

And she was one of the first people

that donated to the Unlikely Mummy

: 1152

00:58:14,804 --> 00:58:18,269

this year, for the big half marathon.

: 1153

00:58:18,969 --> 00:58:25,239

But I've noticed lately, more strangers

that I don't really know, invest in

: 1154

00:58:25,249 --> 00:58:28,699

the Unlikely Mummy more than people

that are around me on the ground.

: 1155

00:58:30,179 --> 00:58:34,869

And that just, for me, makes me realise

that it's not just about these people near

: 1156

00:58:35,259 --> 00:58:37,539

me, it's about the reach that I've got.

: 1157

00:58:37,739 --> 00:58:39,709

And I might not have thousands

and thousands, and I'm not

: 1158

00:58:39,729 --> 00:58:41,989

like some huge influencer.

: 1159

00:58:42,019 --> 00:58:43,359

VIKKI: Doesn't matter, doesn't matter.

: 1160

00:58:43,579 --> 00:58:44,839

KAVITA TREVENA: That's

not what I want to do.

: 1161

00:58:45,009 --> 00:58:47,039

And that used to really upset me before.

: 1162

00:58:47,599 --> 00:58:51,122

Because then those influencers generate

the money, and then for me I was like

: 1163

00:58:51,162 --> 00:58:52,902

that money becomes Unlikely Mummy money.

: 1164

00:58:52,902 --> 00:58:58,812

And people don't realise that

the money isn't my money, and

: 1165

00:58:58,972 --> 00:59:02,792

I've invested my money, similar

to you, into this community.

: 1166

00:59:02,812 --> 00:59:06,242

And I'm desperate for the community

to work, so when someone attacks it,

: 1167

00:59:06,292 --> 00:59:10,566

I feel it's it's like my, my third

baby, Yeah, I've nurtured it, and I've

: 1168

00:59:10,566 --> 00:59:13,776

grown it, and I, say to my husband,

quite often, like, "should I just

: 1169

00:59:13,776 --> 00:59:15,356

give it up, should I just stop it?

: 1170

00:59:15,951 --> 00:59:18,141

It would save us a lot of money and

a lot of time and a lot of effort".

: 1171

00:59:19,251 --> 00:59:21,421

He's like, "no, because you've

invested six years of your life.

: 1172

00:59:22,231 --> 00:59:22,821

Don't give up.

: 1173

00:59:22,891 --> 00:59:24,941

Let it just run in the background

and you're still doing it".

: 1174

00:59:25,511 --> 00:59:27,811

So, we've invested even

more money into it.

: 1175

00:59:28,151 --> 00:59:30,421

And as a result, we're going

to do even more things.

: 1176

00:59:31,001 --> 00:59:35,558

Because the whole purpose of The Unlikely

Mummy and the reason I started it was

: 1177

00:59:36,218 --> 00:59:37,538

I didn't want anyone to feel alone.

: 1178

00:59:37,538 --> 00:59:39,208

And that still stands.

: 1179

00:59:39,208 --> 00:59:42,088

And I want women to feel empowered.

: 1180

00:59:42,528 --> 00:59:44,638

So I want to start

running women's circles.

: 1181

00:59:45,003 --> 00:59:47,333

But obviously I can't do that, so

I'm going to buy people in to do

: 1182

00:59:47,343 --> 00:59:53,383

it, and that's what the money pays

for, is buying experts in to help

: 1183

00:59:53,693 --> 00:59:55,953

the mums that are identified to me.

: 1184

00:59:56,833 --> 00:59:57,323

Oh my god, it sounds like

a sales pitch (laughs).

: 1185

00:59:58,603 --> 01:00:03,369

VIKKI: If there is there anybody listening

to this who is like moved by what

: 1186

01:00:03,369 --> 01:00:08,273

you're doing and what you're trying to

do - if anybody wanted to donate to the

: 1187

01:00:08,273 --> 01:00:10,153

Unlikely Mummy, how could they do that?

: 1188

01:00:10,923 --> 01:00:14,513

KAVITA TREVENA: At the moment, my Just

Giving page is still open for anyone

: 1189

01:00:15,057 --> 01:00:18,057

who's done the big half marathon, so

I will keep that open until I think

: 1190

01:00:18,247 --> 01:00:21,687

they will kick me out of it, and

say I can't have it open anymore.

: 1191

01:00:21,887 --> 01:00:23,497

So I think it'll be open for

another couple of months.

: 1192

01:00:24,137 --> 01:00:27,897

Or, if anyone wants to, they

can, send money directly to the

: 1193

01:00:27,897 --> 01:00:29,037

Unlikely Mummy bank account.

: 1194

01:00:29,697 --> 01:00:34,037

And it's a community account, it's run by

two people, so it's not just in my name,

: 1195

01:00:34,037 --> 01:00:36,167

it's also in one of my director's names.

: 1196

01:00:36,177 --> 01:00:38,567

So I can share those details.

: 1197

01:00:38,697 --> 01:00:41,107

And it's to the Unlikely Mummy,

so it's not even got my name

: 1198

01:00:41,107 --> 01:00:43,367

on it, it's all above board!

: 1199

01:00:43,367 --> 01:00:46,477

Everything The Unlikely Mummy

does is transparent, and you can

: 1200

01:00:46,477 --> 01:00:48,697

find it all on Companies House.

: 1201

01:00:49,131 --> 01:00:53,484

I want it to be crystal clear that the

money I get in is spent out, and, yeah.

: 1202

01:00:54,066 --> 01:00:55,826

We are definitely above board.

: 1203

01:00:55,976 --> 01:00:58,980

And if anyone has ideas, or they want

to come to me and say like, "I've

: 1204

01:00:58,980 --> 01:01:01,876

got this really good idea and I don't

know what to do, or how to start it",

: 1205

01:01:02,316 --> 01:01:03,786

I'm happy to have that conversation.

: 1206

01:01:03,956 --> 01:01:06,816

And if the Unlikely Mummy can

give you some money to kickstart

: 1207

01:01:06,816 --> 01:01:10,660

you, then we will look at that and

we'll explore that, because we've

: 1208

01:01:10,700 --> 01:01:12,290

got money in the reserves to help.

: 1209

01:01:12,770 --> 01:01:15,620

And it doesn't have to be just where

I live, it could be where you live.

: 1210

01:01:16,790 --> 01:01:20,530

I'm desperately wanting to help more

mums, and how that happens, it's

: 1211

01:01:20,550 --> 01:01:24,760

kind of down to everybody to get

involved in that, which is exciting.

: 1212

01:01:25,090 --> 01:01:28,170

I think the future for The Unlikely

Mummy is going to be amazing and I

: 1213

01:01:28,170 --> 01:01:29,750

think it will keep growing and growing.

: 1214

01:01:30,101 --> 01:01:31,621

VIKKI: What's your Insta handle?

: 1215

01:01:31,621 --> 01:01:34,761

What's the best way for people to

keep in touch with what you're doing?

: 1216

01:01:35,006 --> 01:01:38,102

KAVITA TREVENA: Yeah, it's just 'at

The Unlikely Mummy.' Everything I try

: 1217

01:01:38,112 --> 01:01:40,232

to do is just '@ The Unlikely Mummy'.

: 1218

01:01:41,295 --> 01:01:43,295

Kavita@TheUnlikelyMummy.co.uk to email me.

: 1219

01:01:43,625 --> 01:01:45,305

But they're the best ways to get in touch.

: 1220

01:01:45,494 --> 01:01:48,367

VIKKI: For anybody that's struggling,

and you know, we've both been there.

: 1221

01:01:48,970 --> 01:01:53,770

Where just - yeah - the world feels

like it's a dark, scary, horrible place.

: 1222

01:01:54,204 --> 01:01:58,017

What message can you give to somebody

that's feeling like that right

: 1223

01:01:58,017 --> 01:01:59,207

now and can't see a lot of hope?

: 1224

01:02:00,531 --> 01:02:03,531

KAVITA TREVENA: You know, I always say

you'll wake up tomorrow and it'll feel

: 1225

01:02:03,531 --> 01:02:09,291

a little bit lighter, and I always think

if I've gone to bed, upset, hurt, or

: 1226

01:02:09,291 --> 01:02:10,701

angry, and I've woken up the next morning.

: 1227

01:02:10,701 --> 01:02:13,401

One, I've woken up the next morning,

and that's a gift in itself.

: 1228

01:02:14,811 --> 01:02:20,741

But it gets easier, and you will feel

lighter, and also, the second part

: 1229

01:02:20,741 --> 01:02:25,301

of that is, the more you talk about

it, the more you are able to process

: 1230

01:02:25,301 --> 01:02:27,461

it, and the more people understand.

: 1231

01:02:28,641 --> 01:02:32,191

There's nothing wrong with you, we

all process things in very different

: 1232

01:02:32,191 --> 01:02:36,181

ways, and if someone doesn't want to

listen to your story, it says more

: 1233

01:02:36,181 --> 01:02:37,941

about them than it does about you.

: 1234

01:02:38,931 --> 01:02:41,721

Because if they were a true person

in your life, they will be with you,

: 1235

01:02:42,371 --> 01:02:43,261

the good, the bad, and the ugly.

: 1236

01:02:43,620 --> 01:02:44,680

VIKKI: Yeah, no matter what.

: 1237

01:02:44,950 --> 01:02:48,070

KAVITA TREVENA: If they love you

for you, they will stick with you

: 1238

01:02:48,110 --> 01:02:49,670

no matter what your conversation is.

: 1239

01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:54,580

So tomorrow's a new day, it will

definitely get lighter, and keep talking.

: 1240

01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:57,980

Even if it's to strangers,

I think sometimes strangers

: 1241

01:02:57,980 --> 01:02:58,760

are the best listeners.

: 1242

01:02:59,070 --> 01:03:01,250

Just keep talking, and

there's always help.

: 1243

01:03:01,750 --> 01:03:03,320

Yeah, I wish I knew that.

: 1244

01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:07,204

I wish I believed that when

I was going through it.

: 1245

01:03:07,304 --> 01:03:10,194

I thought there was no light, and there's

always light at the end of that tunnel.

: 1246

01:03:10,194 --> 01:03:11,124

VIKKI: Absolutely.

: 1247

01:03:11,214 --> 01:03:14,184

And what a beautiful way

to end the conversation.

: 1248

01:03:14,184 --> 01:03:17,143

Thank you so much Kavita,

It's been amazing.

: 1249

01:03:17,143 --> 01:03:19,453

I've absolutely loved

chatting with you today.

: 1250

01:03:19,513 --> 01:03:22,743

KAVITA TREVENA: I hope we've helped many,

many mums, people, partners, whoever

: 1251

01:03:22,773 --> 01:03:25,173

needs it, and thank you for inviting me.

: 1252

01:03:25,493 --> 01:03:28,353

It's such an honour to be a

guest on your podcast, and I'm

: 1253

01:03:28,893 --> 01:03:30,253

absolutely privileged, thank you.

: 1254

01:03:30,795 --> 01:03:31,915

VIKKI: Thank you so much.

: 1255

01:03:32,259 --> 01:03:35,049

And every time I have a conversation

like the one that I've had with you

: 1256

01:03:35,049 --> 01:03:38,499

today, I'm just like, this is why it's

so important to get these stories out.

: 1257

01:03:38,499 --> 01:03:39,935

KAVITA TREVENA: That's

why you keep going, yeah.

: 1258

01:03:40,009 --> 01:03:41,089

VIKKI: Keep talking about it.

: 1259

01:03:41,089 --> 01:03:41,479

Thank you.

: 1260

01:03:41,823 --> 01:03:42,603

KAVITA TREVENA: You're welcome.

: 1261

01:03:42,633 --> 01:03:43,013

Thank you.

: 1262

01:03:43,013 --> 01:03:44,553

Thank you for giving me the space.

: 1263

01:03:44,743 --> 01:03:45,323

Bye.

: 1264

01:03:45,876 --> 01:03:49,626

VIKKI: The theme music is 'Sunrise

Expedition' by Joseph MacDade.

: 1265

01:03:49,915 --> 01:03:53,395

New episodes are released the first

Monday of each month, available

: 1266

01:03:53,405 --> 01:03:55,545

on all major podcast platforms.

: 1267

01:03:56,113 --> 01:04:00,713

Hit follow to keep up with all the latest,

and if you enjoy Blue MumDays, please

: 1268

01:04:00,713 --> 01:04:02,833

leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.

: 1269

01:04:03,133 --> 01:04:04,993

It helps more people to find us.

: 1270

01:04:05,370 --> 01:04:06,610

Thank you so much.