We're diving deep into the wilderness today, exploring how it shapes our faith and our lives. Cam and I reflect on the metaphor of being in the wilderness, especially as it relates to trusting Jesus to guide us through life's challenges. We discuss the importance of recognizing who or what we look to for guidance and the power of having a supportive relationship, even amidst uncertainty. With a sprinkle of humor and some heartfelt insights, we share our own experiences of navigating tough times and the lessons learned along the way. Join us as we unpack how, even in the wilderness, we can find glimpses of the garden through our faith and relationships.

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Yeah, that's a.

That's a lesson to me.

To start recording.

I've got a really great feeling about us teaming.

What was that?

That was chat.

GBT.

ChatGPT.

Chill.

Okay.

Since you don't know what I'm gonna bring up, this will be interesting.

Okay.

So you don't know what I'm gonna talk about.

Better watch out.

I'll get you right back.

Oh, oh, no.

Don't say suggestive things on the podcast.

You can edit it out.

So you're just fine with creating more work for me then, huh?

Well, you get to make the ultimate decisions.

You're the masters of the podcast.

I am the captain of this podcast.

The master of its fate.

The master of its fate.

Okay.

Do podcasts have souls?

I've been listening to these Bible project podcasts about the wilderness.

Right.

Okay.

And today I was listening to one about how the Israelites trusted Moses to bring them out of the wilderness.

And Moses screwed up.

Right.

Because he's human.

Yeah.

And kind of where Tim and John from the Bible Project were taking it was that we have to trust Jesus to bring us out of the wilderness.

I was like, oh, interesting.

A lot of what had been talked about out.

Talked about up until this point was we're always in wilderness, like, because we're outside the garden.

Right.

Yeah.

Our whole world is like, wilderness feels.

Special relevant right now.

Yeah.

So.

And I was like, oh, interesting.

So who are Christians looking to bring them out of the wilderness right now?

Ooh.

I'm like, oh, seems pretty obvious.

If it's not Jesus, then you're doing it wrong.

Is it Orange Voldemort?

Orange Voldemort?

It's Orange Voldemort.

Or Palpatine.

Or Palpatine.

I like Orange Palpatine, too.

Yeah.

Tangerine Palpatine.

Whoa.

I haven't seen that one.

Tangerine Palpatine.

I haven't seen it either.

Okay.

I honestly.

I struggle with that, and I. I feel bad now.

I feel a little convicted because I do feel like we are supposed to be respectful.

Respectful.

Honoring of the station that they're in.

So, for the most part, I do try to, like, avoid outright mockery, and that's a struggle in my own heart.

I can own that.

I. I do pray for Trump.

I do.

But, yeah.

Okay.

I think a lot of times when posed with a question, like, who are you looking to to bring you out of the wilderness, especially of, like, the world and get you out of the tangles of sin.

Yeah.

Or whatever, you're like, no, I'm not Doing that.

I'm not doing that.

Go on following Jesus.

Yeah.

Sunday school answer, right?

Like, oh, Jesus.

Yeah, yeah, Jesus.

Then I was thinking, like, we've been.

The last podcast, last conversation we had, we were talking about, like, the heart.

Yeah.

Right.

So I looked up some verses.

Yeah.

So it's like, look at your life, look at your behavior.

Who are you trusting to bring you out of the wilderness?

Who is your rabbi?

Who are you following?

Who.

Who are you trusting to solve problems?

Like, yes, the world is full of sin.

Yeah.

That's not a surprise.

Like, no Christian should look at it and be like, oh, wow, this world is terrible.

Right.

Like, no, the Bible tells us the world is going to be terrible.

Right.

This is not a shocker.

We shouldn't be surprised about this.

Like, we've read the back of the book, we know the ending.

We know that we're going to be in suffering, bad things are going to happen.

And so, yeah, it was basically just kind of those two things of just, who are we looking at to bring us out of the wilderness?

And it should be Jesus.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that one of the most difficult things to do, something that's been really difficult for me and my faith, especially growing up in the church, going to Christian school, all of that, is getting away from knowing the answer and actually stepping outside the comfort zone, which often feels like the wrong move.

Right.

Like, it feels like, like, if we're believers, we know Jesus is the answer.

We know, you know, God is going to win in the end.

We know righteousness is how we need to be living our lives, blah, blah, blah.

When something.

When a concept.

I really hope that Cameron just was pulling a table over and just, like, very slowly making this face at me.

But no, it.

It kind of.

I feel like, at least for me, anything that feels new, unknown, foreign automatically feels dangerous.

Because we're like, okay, I already know the right answer.

This doesn't fit within my view of, you know, what the world looks like, how things operate.

Therefore it must be wrong.

I mean, fear is a huge driver of division, of hatred, of all of that, because things that are unknown feel like a threat.

And so when we already have what feels like our set of beliefs, our understanding of how the world works, anything outside of our beliefs can feel foreign, can feel scary, can feel wrong.

Can you help me understand?

Let's figure out where the connection to.

This conversation, to what I was saying.

Yeah.

So, like, basically hold on now I have to think back and figure out, like, what my path was.

I had a path and now ADHD also.

I'm tired and I moved to table and it was distracting.

Yeah, I. Yeah, shouldn't have moved the table.

I lost my train of thought.

Dang it.

Oh, Jesus being the answer.

Like Sunday school answers.

Sunday school answers.

That feels safe.

Yeah.

It feels unsafe to consider the fact that maybe Jesus isn't the one we're actually following because we're like, wait a second.

Like, okay.

Oh, you Christians.

If you ask them, hey, who are you actually following in your life?

Who is the Lord of your life?

They would all go, oh, Jesus.

Right?

We've got the Sunday school answer.

We technically know the right thing to say according to Christian culture.

Right.

But it takes a lot of courage and feels very scary and can feel wrong to go, huh, Maybe I'm not doing that because maybe if Jesus isn't the Lord of my life, what else am I wrong about?

And if I'm wrong about things, there's no stability.

It's like I've built my life, I've built my views on what feels like it should be solid ground because I'm building it on Jesus.

Right.

But saying you are building your life on Jesus and actually doing it are two completely different things, as you and I know very well.

Yes, yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, having your.

Your views of reality and.

Because we all make decisions every single day that we're unaware of, and a lot of times they just don't make sense.

They don't align with what we actually would agree is logic logical or smart.

I mean, yeah, resolving cognitive dissonance is a big problem.

And like, the way that people justify actions that don't align with the beliefs, the beliefs that they tout, people can.

You're like, oh, yeah, why?

Why did I do that?

Oh, actually, yeah, now that you bring that up, that's.

That was a really stupid decision.

Yeah.

And I should have thought that through more thoroughly.

Self reflection is really scary.

It feels a lot safer to go, no, no, I know the right move.

I know the right answer.

I'm on the right track.

You are the one who's wrong.

Because when we start to pick apart that foundation, there's instability.

That feels scary.

And we've convinced ourselves that if something feels scary or foreign, it's because it's from the outside, it's from the world.

If something feels unnatural or foreign or like it goes against what we've already been taught, it must automatically be labeled as a threat.

Yeah, Actually, Coulson and I were talking about this this morning, about how admitting that you are wrong is a hugely important part of growing up, of being a healthy adult.

Like, I was.

I was explaining to him.

I think we were talking about yellow lights because there was a yellow light and it was really icy out this morning.

Colson is our 4 year old.

I was taking him to preschool this morning, and there was a yellow light.

And I was not confident that I was going to be able to stop in time.

And so I went through the yellow light and I tried to, like, as a mom, I try to always have the.

The view of, like, I am teaching you right now.

And so I explained to him, I was like, okay, baby.

Normally, like, if the roads weren't slick, I should have stopped there.

And he was like, well, no, a yellow light means that you should blow through it.

And I was like, h. Baby, did Daddy Steven tell you that?

And he was like, yeah, Daddy Stephen.

Is the word kiss.

His biological.

His biological dad.

My ex husband, who will be the first to admit that his views on driving aren't exactly conservative.

And so we were talking about it, and I somehow got on the topic of.

Just to note, like, we do have a really positive relationship with them.

Yeah.

Yeah, they're.

Yeah, they're great.

I was just texting with him all day today.

They're, like, kind of friends.

It's.

Yeah, he's remarried now.

His wife is awesome.

They've got more kiddos.

We have a really, really strong relationship with.

And so we were talking about how I was like, yeah, baby, did you know that I used to agree with Daddy Steven about pretty much everything?

Because Stephen and I have some very differing political beliefs.

We have differing beliefs in just about everything except faith.

And that our kid is awesome and that you're cooler than I am.

I think he and I definitely agree that you.

Me?

Yeah, you.

You are way cooler.

Yeah.

I don't know if, like, people listening can't see your hand.

Well, I was saying, you okay?

You.

Me?

Yeah.

Like, he called.

He called me the other day and, like, you said something, and so he just started talking to you.

And I was like, well, you just call me just to talk to my husband.

He's like, yeah, he's way cooler than you.

And I was like, yes, I think.

I think you may have said something like.

Like, I think we could both agree, like, we both would rather talk to him than like each other or something like that.

And then you were like, yeah, I'd rather.

I'd rather talk to Cam, too.

Yeah.

I was like, oh, he's way cooler than me.

That's fine.

I like him way more than I like me.

That's what I said.

I was like, I like him way more than I like me.

He's awesome.

But no, we have a really positive relationship, but we have very, very, very, very, very different views on a lot of things.

And so I was explaining to my son, I was like, yeah, I have certain views.

Daddy Steven, a lot of times has very different views.

So.

So your job is going to be to take all of the information and with knowing that Jesus has the right answer, choose what you're going to believe, basically.

And I'm like, the only thing that matters is what Jesus is telling you.

And so we ended up having this really great conversation about how my political beliefs have changed.

A lot of my views have changed the closer I've gotten to Jesus.

Because the only thing that matters is doing the best you can with the information that you have.

And how we ended up, like, playing this game where I'm like, okay, when you get more information, it's okay to change your views because you want to be able to be forming your opinions with the best information that you have.

And so I had him play this game where I was like, okay, I'm going to describe something to you, and you have to guess what it is.

What an interesting way to grow up with, like, two different households that believe such different things on, like, some major topics.

Oh, yeah, right.

That's so interesting.

Yeah, because, like, I believed what my parents believed until I was in college.

Just kind of adopted their beliefs.

I'm sure most kids do that.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I did.

And then I got involved with Stephen's family and became an extreme conservative.

But anyways.

But so I was.

I went through this process of explaining to him, trying to get him to guess what I was describing.

And I first said, like, it has a body and moves by four things that are connected to his body that then touch the ground.

And he's like an elephant.

And kept.

I was like, no, but it's gray.

And he's like an elephant.

And I'm like, no.

And so eventually, yeah, I ended up giving him more information.

Be like, it's made of metal and it has glass on it.

He goes, oh, a car?

I'm like, yeah.

Was an elephant a good guess based on the information you were given?

He was like, yeah.

I'm like, but when you had more and better information, was it okay to change what you thought it was?

And he was like, yeah.

And so we had this really great conversation about, like, being able to change your views and your beliefs by seeking out and finding and being given more and better information and how that is not.

That does not mean you are wrong.

That does not mean you are dumb.

Like, changing your beliefs because you got more or better information is being a responsible adult.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, it was.

It was a really cool conversation.

And he's, like, engaged.

He's, like, asking questions.

He's like, all right, now I want to do it.

And he, like, invented some, like, bird monster.

And so I, like.

I'm asking questions.

And he's like, yeah, it has a yellow horn and a beak, but the horn is not touching the body.

I'm like, wait, what is it?

It was like.

I forget what it was.

But he, like, invented just making up a thing for you to guess what it's like.

Okay, fun game.

We may have.

We may have lost the plot here a little bit.

I didn't hear about this conversation.

It's really cool.

Yeah, maybe I.

Maybe I tuck some things away for the podcast, too.

No, never think of that.

Given I didn't think of that.

I was not prepared.

But okay, so I kept listening in the series of this podcast and, like, while I was shoving the driveway and they were talking about Jesus being in the wilderness and following Jesus when you're.

When you're in the wilderness, and specifically about feeding the 5,000 and feeding the 4,000.

What?

I just keep thinking of when Colson.

What was it?

Yesterday or the other day?

What did he.

What was he eating?

What was it?

I don't know.

I said something tasted weird.

We were eating something, and I was like, I don't know.

I think this tastes kind of weird.

He goes, I think it's really good.

It tastes like bread, the five loaves and the fishes and a Popsicle.

And I'm like, what?

What are you talking about?

But he was just like, this is the epitome of delicious food.

Well, there you go.

Actually, that.

That loaves and fishes and a Popsicle.

Follows what I was going to say.

Yeah.

So the point that they were.

That Bible project Tim and John were trying to make was that Jesus was speaking to people in the wilderness, but they were experiencing a feast, which was representative.

Being in the garden.

Oh.

And so, like, you can experience.

The.

Garden if you're with Jesus in the wilderness.

Like our marriage.

Yeah.

Oh, No, truly, like our marriage.

Because everything else in life is going terribly, except for our marriage.

That's genuinely the example that I use When I'm, like, talking to people is.

I'm like, well, you know what?

Like, God is so clearly providing in the area of our marriage specifically, that it's like, our.

Like, our marriage gives me so much hope.

Yeah.

Because our marriage is so good.

Not that it's, like, easy.

I mean, it's probably the easiest thing in our lives.

Let's be real.

Probably.

But, like, yeah, I think.

Yeah, that's.

Oh, I love that.

It's like, the place my brain goes is like, when you're playing a video game and you have to, like, make ma.

You have to choose, like, where your, like, skill points go.

And, like, you can either put it in, like, strength or health or, like.

All of our skill magic.

All of our skill points went in the marriage, nothing else.

Which is hilarious because so many people told us that getting married would be the worst mistake of our lives.

Yeah.

Like, okay, for those listening, we lost.

I. I think.

I don't know if you lost any friends specifically, but I lost so many friends when we got married.

Like, so many people were vehemently opposed to us getting married.

And now that we are married, it's like, oh, somebody didn't want that to happen.

Like, the enemy clearly did not want this to happen because our marriage is, like, so good and points us back to Christ.

And, like, I've.

I've been very vocal about the fact.

I think I've talked about this online, that being married to you and how you treat me and how you love me and how you serve me and how you, like, pour back into me and challenge me has given me so much more of, like, a concrete reference point for the love of Christ.

Well, thank you.

You guys can't see it, obviously, but he's doing, like, this really cute little mark right now.

You're super cute, and I love you.

Okay, so, like, you get a taste of being in the garden and, like, feasting in the wilderness.

Right.

And so, like, the only way to, like, have joy or experience part of the garden.

Sorry, that was.

If that.

If that Ranger.

Ranger is on my lap chewing her rope and just growled at me.

The only way to experience the garden.

Let me take a step back.

Let me sum up.

Let me explain.

No, there is too much.

If I were to try to sum up the entire series of this podcast, which is excessive because I think they're on, like, hour 10 of conversation.

Good grief.

Is that the wilderness?

God uses the wilderness to prepare us for the garden.

You can be prepared for the garden in the garden, but a lot of times through Our own choice or through other people's actions, we end up in the wilderness.

Yeah.

So the only way to experience the garden in the wilderness is through Jesus.

Because Jesus has already overcome the wilderness in the 40 days that he spent there.

Yeah.

Being tempted, because he was.

He was the one that fulfilled basically the.

He was there for a day for every year that Israel.

Israel is wandering the desert.

How did.

I never made that connection.

I know, right?

Yeah.

So he was there for one day for every year Israel was in the wilderness.

And God had Israel in the wilderness for a year for every day the spies were in Canaan.

Ooh, I didn't realize they were in Canaan for 40 days.

Me either.

There's so much that I've missed.

I know.

Like, I've read the Bible all the way through, and where was I?

I wasn't paying attention.

So, like, there's.

I mean, when you focus on the numbers, it makes sense.

Okay.

Like, yeah, the spies were in Canaan looking at the promised land for 40 days, came back, Israel got scared, didn't go into the promised land like they were supposed to.

And then we're stuck wandering in the desert for a year for every day the spies were in Canaan.

And then Jesus went into the wilderness after he was baptized.

A day for every year Israel was in the wilderness, like, symbolizing that he's fulfilling what Israel couldn't do.

He did redemption.

And so that because Jesus overcame the wilderness, if he's.

If we're there with him, we also can overcome the wilderness.

That's really beautiful.

And that's so wild that, like, you had this thought and then through the sequence of events today, you've had, like, multiple things happen that have been really encouraging that the sequence.

Yeah, it's coming to a close.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah.

I didn't put that together.

So we, for the uninitiated, have been in A Season of Wandering for a while.

I won't give the whole story because I feel like every time I bring this up, I'm like, let me start at the beginning.

Let's start at the very beginning.

What is that from the Sound of Music.

Cameron.

I've seen the movie, like, 10 times, but I still don't remember that part.

Yeah.

But, yeah, we've been in A Season of Wandering since before we met.

Yeah.

And most recently, we've been dealing with job loss and some serious uncertainty.

And so it's just really cool.

Like, God's timing is so cool with showing you this today.

And then I've got a Couple interviews now.

Yeah.

Like, after months of nothing.

Yeah.

That's really cool.

God is really cool.

He's pretty sweet.

And we've been trying to be very patient and prayerful and I think, too.

Like, knocking down the things that God has been telling us are in our path.

Like, there have been a number of things that God's like.

Yeah.

So this season isn't gonna end until you get a handle on this.

Right.

And it's some tough stuff.

Oh, yeah.

And so I think, like, it's very much been a refining fire.

I think this has maybe been like, the most focused as far as, like, it's very clear the things that need to be dealt with and then they're getting dealt with.

Plus, it's always easier when you're with someone.

So.

Yeah, I think this has been the most, like, maybe not intense hardship wise, because we've both dealt with some really, like, intensely difficult circumstances.

Yeah.

Yours being brain cancer and a divorce at the same time, mine being, like, multiple legal battles at the same time.

Including a divorce.

Yep.

But, yeah, it's really cool to look back and go, obviously, like, we're not perfect, but I'm really proud of how faithful we've been in this season.

Yeah, me too.

And, like, I feel like I should have known.

Like, even I've been following Jesus long enough that, like, me telling myself, like, oh, I'm not gonna go to this place and do this work.

Maybe that's exactly where God's gonna send me, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But there's hope on the horizon.

Yeah.

And that's really cool.

Reddit stories.

You want to go do some Reddit stories now?

Let's read some Reddit stories.

All right, well, we should probably close this one out.

Okay.

Well, I'd like to thank all of our team, specifically our editor, Rachel and me.

You can see a full list of our.

Of our.

Our staff in the.

In the podcast description.

It's literally just all me.

Well, with a little assist from my tools.

I have a lot of tools that I use that make things easier, but.

Ranger is moral support.

Yep.

We would like to thank Ranger and Scarlet for being the cutest pups in town.

I haven't seen Sinatra today.

She's stuck in the bathroom upstairs.

Our cat.

We have a little kitty door in our bathroom door in our basement.

Because our bathroom in the basement is where we keep the litter box and all the kitty stuff.

And Ranger is supposed to be a full size Aussie, but is a mini somehow, and she can fit through the cat door.

And then she likes to dig in the litter box.

She likes the little Tootsie Rolls.

Her personal sandbox.

That's disgusting.

And so we've been trying to figure out different ways to make this door shape smaller.

And unfortunately, I think we've accidentally boxed the cat in.

Cat's name is Sinatra.

She's the cutest little thing.

I'd rather her stay in the bathroom than not be able to get in the bathroom, though.

I mean, because if she can't get in there, then she just pees in the Home Depot bucket.

She's like, you guys gotta work with me.

She just jumps in a bucket and pees in there.

When was she.

Okay, I know that she did that one time.

Twice.

Twice, at least.

Yeah.

Was that when we had the box or the bucket of chicken feed in here?

Yeah.

Okay, well, yeah, that looks like her litter, so she probably didn't pee in the chicken.

It was just in the bucket.

It was.

There was just, like, the.

Like, a little puddle of pee in the bottom of the bucket.

I wonder if she, like, thinks it's a litter box because it had what felt like litter in it.

And she's like, well, you know what?

You've given me no choice.

I'll make do.

Yeah, she's such a good kitty.

Poor thing.

She peed somewhere that it was collected.

Yeah, she didn't pee on the floor.

But we're.

This is a distracted.

It's okay.

We need to read some Reddit stories.

This is just an insight into our.

Our daily routine and our normal conversations.

Daily life with Rach, huh?

Oh, it is David Scoop.

All right.

Well, anyways, thank you for spending some time with us today.

We would love to hear your thoughts.

You can always shoot us an email with questions or things you'd like us to cover in future topics or whatever the case may be.

Future episodes, not future topics, but yeah.

My email is rachel.rachel grit.com.

make sure you subscribe wherever you are listening so you get future episodes and we will see you in the next one.

Bye.

See you.