Shownotes
12 - ClickFunnels vs. HighLevel: Chris Lyle Discusses the Landmark Legal Battle
This podcast episode features Chris Lyle, an attorney and entrepreneur with a focus on intellectual property and legal technology. Chris shares his journey founding SaaS companies LawHustle and CompFox, and discusses the importance of legal knowledge in the tech industry, including insights into software patents and the ClickFunnels vs. High Level lawsuit.
The episode covers strategies for protecting digital businesses and the significance of IP and data protection, with an emphasis on automation tools and services like High Level for law firms. Chris highlights the need for legal foundations in SaaS ventures and offers advice on compliance through his KickSaaS Legal service.
The conversation also touches upon safeguarding digital assets, preventing unauthorized information sharing, and maintaining work-life balance through efficient legal and business practices.
About Chris Lyle
Chris Lyle is a trailblazer at the intersection of law and technology. Chris is not only a licensed attorney specializing in intellectual property and patent prosecution but also a visionary entrepreneur who founded two innovative SaaS businesses. With LawHustle, he has revolutionized the intake process for law firms, and with CompFox, he has created a state-of-the-art legal research platform. Beyond his contributions to legal tech, Chris is a partner in a California-based law firm and the mastermind behind KickSaaS Legal—a game-changing service providing digital business owners with flat fee, honest legal services. From contract templates to trademark consultations, Chris is dedicated to simplifying legal complexities for his peers in the digital space.
Highlights:
Key points we talked about in this pilot episode!
- 01:34 The Evolution of High Level: A Deep Dive with Chris
- 10:03 The ClickFunnels Lawsuit: Insights and Analysis
- 34:27 Exploring the Future of ClickFunnels and High Level
- 39:11 Exploring the Potential of a High-Level Mastermind
- 39:50 The Power of Collaboration in the High-Level Community
- 41:07 The Impact of Legal Challenges on Business Strategy
- 42:06 KickSaaS Legal: Revolutionizing Legal Services for SaaS Companies
- 44:49 The Future of Legal Templates and Services
- 53:32 Navigating Intellectual Property and Data Protection
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More info about this episode:
- Type: Audio (Explicit )
- Link: https://podcast.highlevelexperience.com/episode/clickfunnels-vs-highlevel-chris-lyle-discusses-the-landmark-legal-battle
- Authors: Vit Muller
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Transcripts
Ep 12 - Chris Lyle | HighLevel Experience Podcast
===
Vit Muller: [:With LawHustle, he has revolutionized the intake process for law firms. And with CompFox, he has created a state of the art legal research platform. Beyond his contribution. To legal tech, Chris is a partner in a California based law firm and the mastermind ~behind KickSaaS legal~ behind KickSaaS legal, a game changing service, providing digital business owners with flat fee, honest legal services from contract employees to trademark consultations.
Chris is dedicated to simplifying legal complexities for his peers in the digital space. Join us as we dive into his journey of pushing limits to automate and simplify, ensuring that you can focus on what truly matters, enjoying life and growing your business.
A Warm Welcome and Quick Catch-Up
---
Vit Muller: Chris, [:Andrew Kamide: Welcome brother.
Chris Lyle: appreciate you having me. I shut such short notice.
Andrew Kamide: Yeah.
Vit Muller: That's how we roll mate. That's how we roll. It's been really fast paced, ~you know, ~fast paced,~ um,~ with everything lately. ~Right. I mean, ~you've been in high level for years. I've been in high level for a couple of years too. And the, ~you know, ~like ~the, ~the pays at ~like ~what Sean's really is just this week and ~like, ~not just little things, but like really big, it's just crazy.
~Right. ~So trying to be on top of it all and running this podcast. ~You know, ~sometimes these things happen off the cuff and oftentimes they're the best episodes. I'm really looking forward to this one anyway.
Chris Lyle: Yeah.
The Evolution of High Level: A Deep Dive with Chris
---
lly to agencies at the end of: date, my top of my head, but [:Cause we were obviously doing what most people understand. We didn't like, ~you know, ~three years ago, it was like duct taping a bunch of stuff together to get it to work. ~Uh, ~that's exactly what we're doing. Zapier, RingCentral, all this stuff to work. And then I met Sean. And then when he talked, started talking about ~like, ~Hey, we're going to start transitioning down this road and start doing like more automation, workflow stuff, and like ~kind of ~going down that route,~ uh,~ you interested?
And I'm like, absolutely. Because. ~You know, ~so he used stuff we were doing and then obviously stuff other people in the group at the same time that I met later on, like Matt DeSeno and ~like ~Rob Bailey and all these other guys, right? I didn't even know they were ~in the, ~in the mix at the same time I was in the mix too as well.
But yeah, we all essentially ~like ~gave feedback and like how this shit all ~kind of, ~and it's ~kind of ~growing into what it is now today, which is. Wild. I don't even, I don't even talk to Sean anymore. He's too busy for me now.
Andrew Kamide: Dude, what's [:It's crazy that Mark Helton, the owner of Hot Prospector is now like a,~ like, uh, uh, ~in the marketplace, he's building apps for high level. And that was why I moved into high levels. Cause I couldn't pay for Hot Prospector. It was just too much. I was doing too much volume. ~Um, so.~
nning of ~like, ~I think late:~Like, ~would you be interested in like giving us 5, 000 or something like that in exchange for, you get to put together your feature list. And I'm like,~ uh,~ sign me up. ~Where's the, where's the, where's the, ~where's the credit card revision?
Andrew Kamide: Yep.
is Lyle: anyways, so ~like, ~[:And ~like, ~we got to take part in some features that are essentially still on the platform today that ~are, ~are useful. Like for example, my. I say biggest contribution was a stale opportunities, right? And our pipeline, we were doing it is there was no way for us to know whether a lead has dropped off, whether they weren't in a campaign, they weren't, they were being actively prospect for a certain period of time.
So like I talked to him, like I needed a way to figure out, like if somebody fell off in this stage of the pipeline, that they just get picked back up again and go at it again, that's ~kind of ~how that whole transition ~kind of ~started and I used it the shit out of that thing until, ~you know what I mean?~
But ~I mean, ~it's a way, we were cool with that, but yeah,
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. And Joe rare told me the same thing when I was talking to him. He's like back in the day, I was like, Sean, we need calendars, bro. Like we need, and there wasn't even there. And then, ~you know, ~he taught Joe rare is one of the OGs too. And so he helped them get calendars. So it's crazy that I didn't even know the story about them going to you guys and saying, we want all your guys's feature list from the early adopters.
kes me think of what I could [:What do you want the most? What do you like the most, but going to like the people that have been there since the beginning and going ~like, ~what do you really want? ~Like ~make a list of everything you want. ~Right.~
Chris Lyle: And if anything, it highlights the dedication that Sean has to making a platform or a software that's his users want. And it still is prevalent today. Like he's still ~like, ~Hey Sean, coming at you. Like in all this stuff, he's launching. Everybody's ~like, like, ~this is stuff I need.
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. Yep.
Vit Muller: Definitely. Yeah, it's crazy.~ I think, I think, ~I think we should maybe ~like ~do ~like ~a quick summary,~ uh,~ of those, because there's so many new people jumping in a high level, right? And they're new and they probably don't know the backstory. ~Um, ~you guys want to do ~like ~a little brief backstory about high level, like just for those new newbies listening.
Andrew Kamide: Sure. Yeah. Chris, take it away, bro.
ust said, you newbies on the [:So if you need one specific feature inside that entire feature set, you could potentially sell to people and make a great deal of money out of it. There's one right there for you. Like you don't even need to sell automations. Like you can just sell reputation management and make a bunch of money essentially read this.
But anyways, to make a long story short, yeah, that's the only reason I came into that, but I wanted to law firm. I wanted to reviews for a law firm to be able to get higher up the chain. Cause the law firm market is very competitive, especially in the injury market. My firm does,~ uh,~ injury stuff. I do patent prosecution stuff.
My firm does injury stuff. So that's very competitive. So you need to ~like ~show that you're like the leader in the pack. And that's the whole reason we did it. That's ~kind of ~how it all started. But through the course of ~like ~that. ~Uh, ~and having multiple discussions with Sean and ~like, ~Hey, we need this feature.
g so many humans involved to [:And that's ~kind of ~like ~where it, ~where it transitions to, which it's a
Andrew Kamide: And that's where I
Chris Lyle: small thing at the very beginning, but now it's way bigger now.
Vit Muller: But beforehand.
Andrew Kamide: where I came in. Go
Vit Muller: So beforehand,~ was,~ wasn't it, wasn't high level an agency like on their own, like selling services, like traditional
Andrew Kamide: ~No, ~no. I think ~Robin, ~Robin had an, still has an agency with,~ um, um, ~Paulson. I think they were in, in something together. I can't remember. ~There were, ~there were connections inside of the top management of high level that were agency related, but they were not an agency. No.
Chris Lyle: So the history from them is like Sean and Bruin straight up SaaS, like software developers. They come from that realm. ~Uh,~
Andrew Kamide: Sean had a QuickBooks.
Chris Lyle: came from another project that they sold to somebody else. ~Right. It was, ~it was regarding invoices. I think it was like called invoice Sherpa is what the name of the company was.
eting Robin, who brought the [:They had the development side and that's where it just went~ like ~propelled.
Andrew Kamide: That's when Rob Bailey and all those guys were jumping in. I don't know the backstory to their friendship, but I know ~like, um, ~that's that early stage when they were doing like, they were pitching to people that Rob Bailey was talking to. There's like that old picture. I don't know if it's on their website or somewhere, but it's like Robin and Sean ~kind of ~pitching high level and you'll see Rob Bailey on the side and there's just a bunch of people in ~Like ~30 or 40 people just sitting there ~kind of ~like a
Chris Lyle: Have you ever looked at the background of that image?
Andrew Kamide: No. Are you there?
Vit Muller: I did
Chris Lyle: Have you ever looked at, have you ever looked at the background of that image? Like ~what, what, ~what Sean is showcasing on screen?
Andrew Kamide: I,~ well,~ I have, but I don't remember it. Yeah.
Vit Muller: It's at the back end of
Andrew Kamide: Oh,~ law,~ law hustle. ~That's ~that's right. It was law hustle. ~Well, ~he's been pitching law hustle since almost day one.
Chris Lyle: He was in there, he was pitching a high level, but he was showing off our account.
e the fact that you could do [:And we got into a bunch of issues, but I remember seeing law hustle all over the place, dude. It's ~like, ~that was the premier. ~Like ~if you wanted a white label app, it was law hustle that you were looking at. ~Right. ~If anything. ~Uh, you know, ~they were trying to sell their using law hustles.
Chris Lyle: I think we were the number one white label customer that they had. Like we were the first one to say ~like, ~Hey, I need to brand this for myself. And I think we were the number one people to make that, to start propelling them down that path. ~Um, ~obviously there's thousands of them now, probably hundreds of thousands of them now at this point, I would assume.
But that was.
Andrew Kamide: Man, you lawyers in your deep pockets, bro. You know what I'm saying?
Chris Lyle: I wouldn't say that, but
what's, ~what's, ~you know, ~:Chris Lyle: the amount of money I had to pay for law school, it's up like that. ~I~
Andrew Kamide: ~Yeah, yeah, ~yeah. Yeah. Debt's
Chris Lyle: it that way.
~Um, ~so check us out, man. [:Vit Muller: Yeah, no, you got it.
The ClickFunnels Lawsuit: Insights and Analysis
---
Andrew Kamide: I was going to say,~ um,~ let's jump into what we, so originally when we booked this, why it's such short notice is because everyone's been talking about the ClickFunnels lawsuit, right? So ClickFunnels is suing high level. And to be honest, I don't even know the legality of doing this episode. Like you're the lawyer, you can tell us like, is it breaching something talking about this, even though it's public knowledge, so maybe we can get into that as well.
Vit Muller: Hey, one thing's for sure. It's ~very, ~very fresh, right? This is fresh news from ~since, ~since Monday, right? Or Tuesday? Monday, Tuesday?
Chris Lyle: think the complaint was filed on like April 22nd or something like that. So it's fair. It's fairly new. It's
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. So ~just, ~just started to get leaked or people got caught wind of it early this week,~ uh,~ I actually woke up at ~like ~six 30, which is weird for me. And I saw my Facebook and I actually read through the entire thing. And I just, I'm not a lawyer, but I take it upon myself to try to get smarter and read bigger words.
the conversation about this, [:And you're like, dude, I'm a patent lawyer. ~Like ~this is fucking perfect for me. So we're going to spend most of the time here talking about that lawsuit, learning more about it, ~you know,~
Vit Muller: Yeah, and guys, so what we're talking about is the guy with the potato gun and high level, basically. ~Uh, ~the guy with the potato gun is ~Russell, ~Russell Branson. ~Um, ~who is the owner of ClickFunnels. And they filed a lawsuit against High Level Claiming that High Level has stolen something. Some of their IP basically.
So it's going to be juicy episode guys. So listen in and let's just dive into it.
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. Give us the dirty dets, Chris. So just ~kind of ~hit us with what ~your, ~your thoughts, your opinions are. Just reading it for the first time and then ~like ~what you found out going into the research and stuff.
ough it. And the first thing [:Cause I do this. I do hardware and software patents all day long. That's why I talk with nerds about hardware and software all day long is what I do. ~So. ~I read through the entire complaint, obviously, because I'm the nerd in myself. And then I read through those patents that obviously ClickFunnels claiming that,~ uh,~ high level infringed on.
~Uh, ~so I'm, I wouldn't say I'm a expert in this specific patents that they have, but I got a gist of ~like, ~what's going on, but essentially what's happening. And I ~kind of ~want to set up the foundation for this, for your, for the viewers. Everybody thinks that ClickFunnels is suing GHL or high level and, Oh my God, what's going to happen to my business?
Nothing's going to happen. This is such a common thing in the software world. People are thrown around pat like patent infringement cases all day long, every day. Nobody just sees it. I see it a lot because I'm in that, I'm in that world. ~Right. Uh, ~and you hear about the big ones like the Samsung and Apple disputes, right?
GHL community. There's just, [:~So,~
Andrew Kamide: and,~ well,~ you know what's crazy too, Chris is Jasper used to be Jarvis and Disney sent Jarvis, then Jarvis a cease and desist and nothing happened. They just changed the name. ~Right. ~So it's just like these things can turn into. Absolutely nothing changed for the, for high level for the company, but nothing for us for end users.
~Right? Like,~
Chris Lyle: yeah, ~I mean, ~and there's a lot of fingers in the pot now, if that makes any sense. It's not just Sean and Baroon anymore. Like it's Sean Baroon and VC Capital and the thing. So like they're going to pile in their resources at the same time to make sure that. And the outcome of this is the least damaging as possible to their brand as well as everything.
~Right. ~But ~I mean, you, you know, ~Andrew, just as much as everybody else knows. ~I mean, ~ClickFunnels was built on the whole, like hack somebody else's funnel stuff. ~Like ~that was their,~ like,~ that's their persona and that's their mission. ~Right. ~So the fact this ~is, ~is happening is ~kind of~
I was doing websites and SEO [:He was using SEO hacks to boost affiliate pages. And that's what I did. I boosted like local businesses in 30 days, got them number one in Google before penguin, panda and hummingbird and all that shit. ~So, you know, ~Dan Henry, you lucky motherfucker. Anyways. That's where I learned about click funnels, right?
I learned about building these single page, squeeze it, squeeze pages, and, ~you know, ~funnel hacking and learning all those techniques and then running those crazy discount funnels through Facebook ads. ~So, um, ~it's, it is ironic that this is the lawsuit when they're the ones that coined hacking other people's shit, ~you know?~
it's a bunch of like foreign [:And it relates to an individual's suite. of tools that's web based that you can make funnels and essentially right and like you can do directional stuff based off of ~you know, whatever, ~whatever happens at the funnel what's clicked right essentially ~right ~you can ~kind of ~guide people down to the end result which is checking out or whatever that happened that item happens to be right.
ou building websites ~in, ~in:Maybe like it was 19. Go
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. ~I~
Chris Lyle: were you building? Okay.
Andrew Kamide:: your non ~lawyer, ~lawyer y [:Andrew Kamide: correct. That is my non
Chris Lyle: ~I mean, I, I'm, ~I'm, I just, WordPress,~ right,~ even things like Squarespace. I think my first law firm web space was on Squarespace. And that you can just drag and drop things exactly like you can now ~in the, ~in the
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. It seemed like a super vague patent. ~Right. ~And it makes me think,~ so, you know, ~Dan Martell, you've heard me talk about Dan Martell before, right?
Vit Muller: yeah. Numerous
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. So he actually is a,~ uh,~ Brunson Russell Brunson is a coaching client of Dan Martell. So he's a SaaS coach on and stuff. And so ~I, ~I wonder if this whole patent thing is part of Dan's strategy because Dan is an incredibly smart dude.
.:I don't know. It's just my inkling, ~you know?~
Chris Lyle: I don't know if anybody's familiar with like patents, like the whole point of patent is ~like, ~if you get a patent, like you get to protect that right to make use and sell that thing for 20 years, essentially from the date you filed the application. ~Right. Right. ~But if you disclose your invention or your novel idea to the public, you must.
File a patent application within a year of you disclosing it to somebody else. So ~like, ~if you did a webinar, you talked about this client shiny thing,~ like, uh, you know, ~ClickFunnels for example, or ~like ~something you, if you want to patent on something that's protected in there, you need to let, like it needs to be done within a year.
~Right. ~So I don't really know. And which is an ~odd, ~odd turn of events is you can't. You can't patent software. You can tie software to hardware and patent it, which is exactly what's happening in his, in their patents for sure. Like this is exactly what I do all day long. ~You, ~you tie software to some sort of like memory or processor and you patent it essentially.
~Right. ~[:Andrew Kamide: Yeah.
Chris Lyle: how long it was exposed.
I don't know, but if it was more than a year, I think maybe they're out outright then they're right. And not to mention if they're using anything like open source code, what is the definition of open source code? It's code. Somebody's developed, put it on the market for anybody to freely use. If that's, if ClickFunnels software uses any remote app. I
Andrew Kamide: right. And there's, so I'm definitely not an expert in this, but,~ um,~ my partner, Sergio has taught me a lot about,~ uh,~ open source code licensing and MIT licenses. There's like a certain stipulation. You can use it for all kinds of things and you don't have to pay any licensing fees or anything like that, but there's still like restrictions.
earch, but it's almost like. [:And so that. Is intriguing to me because I always thought you could patent software, but what, if you don't have hardware behind it, what do you do? Do you copyright? Is it IP? Is it like, what are you trying to protect and how do you protect it if it's just software?
Chris Lyle: mean, if you can't necessarily get do ~like ~go like your traditional routes,~ like, you know, ~trademarks is more like a branding thing, like copyrights, more like of stuff like that, the writing aspect of it, if you can't patent, because it doesn't fall within a statutory class of what you are able to patent, Your fallback is always trade secrets.
lse in the public know about [:Andrew Kamide: ~Right. ~That makes a lot of
Chris Lyle: similar concept. You got to pick and choose what you want to do. You know
Andrew Kamide: yeah. Keeping your code close to your chest, private, so that nobody actually sees it, so then it's a trade secret as opposed to copywritten
Vit Muller: Plus what you mentioned there is
Chris Lyle: some innovating code out there in the world ~that, that, ~that people have written, that they've never tied to hardware software. ~I mean, ~tied it to hardware and gotten a patent for it because what they do or ~like ~some sort of like processing mechanism or method they use is very unique.
It happens all the time. It's just people, but~ you know, ~Andrew must, as I know, and Sergio knows this as well. ~I mean, ~people, minds in the development world, they're like on a whole nother level. Some of these people you talk to,~ like,~ they're like 30 steps ahead in like the world of like technology. And ~like, ~they're already figuring out how they can code something to do particular execution or an operation.
Like it's wild what some of these people do. So~ if, ~if you don't patent it or something like that, like you, ~you know, ~The odds are you're just going to be eating up anyways, and
to future proof it. So like [:~Right. Um, ~so yeah, I, I agree with that.
Chris Lyle: Yeah, but this whole thing with them and the whole web based platform is wild, in my personal opinion.
Andrew Kamide: Yep.
Vit Muller: Hey, ~what's the, ~what's the whole deal with using, ~you know, ~the trademark, the sign, the TM, but like just putting it like as a marketing thing, like on headlines and stuff.
Chris Lyle: There's absolutely no protection with the term, with the using TM. Absolutely not. You need the little circle with the R in it saying it's registered for you to get any value
Vit Muller: ~Right.~
Chris Lyle: you're just ~kind of~
Andrew Kamide: What's it? What?
Chris Lyle: it. I'm using this.
Vit Muller: ~right.~
Andrew Kamide: Yeah, what's
Vit Muller: get you.~ Can you, ~can you do that? Is it going to get you in trouble?
Chris Lyle: No, I don't think so.
Andrew Kamide: ~what's ~what's the viability behind? Apparently, Sergio told me if you use TM publicly for at least a year, that gives you some sort of Right in court or arbitration when it comes to ~like ~defending the concept of that TM or something like
Chris Lyle: [:They would have common law. Like priority over that name for whatever that geographic area is most likely these things end up being like settlement agreements were like the bigger franchise will make a settlement agreements and you can use our name within your geographic area, but not outside that, but and then the franchise will just obviously go gun hole because that's smaller established.
It's never going to use that trademark ~in a, ~in a broader environment in a sense, right? ~So, ~yeah, there is a thing called common law, but at the end of the day, okay. The common law trademark thing is always a fallback argument in court.
Andrew Kamide: Yeah.
Chris Lyle: The punch is always getting the R.
Meta and some guy had,~ uh,~ [:~Um, ~and now they can make an argument, like if you own something that's a.com that is like a Fran ~uh, ~a. Business like a corporation. There's some sort of, maybe I'm wrong. I've heard this somewhere in a conversation where ~they, ~they have some sort of right over that. Like you can't ~like ~hold them hostage or anything anymore.
~Right. ~You can't do ~like ~blackmail for that. com. But I know Meta had to do something like that where they had to buy Meta from some guy in like Arizona or some shit.
Chris Lyle: you still have to, you still have to buy the domain from somebody, but yeah, ~I mean, ~there's actually proceedings. outside of ~like ~the regular court,~ like,~ like the ICANN does or ~like ~WIPO does regarding like domains and actually higher brand,~ uh,~ high value brands like Prada, like your Gucci's, like those big brands, they go after Chinese websites all the time to take down fraudulent websites.
in WIPO. Saying that they're [:~Right. So,~
Andrew Kamide: I wonder how hard that is to
Chris Lyle: this happens for me, it's like I own go law hustle. com. ~Right. ~There's another company out there that owns law hustle. com. on sale, right? But if he ever puts,~ um, like ~let's say a marketing based website or something related to law firms on that website, and I own a trademark for law hustle, I'm going to immediately file it and get the domain sent to me.
Vit Muller: Does that mean you still have to pay him out for it?
Chris Lyle: Huh?
Vit Muller: Does that mean that you still have to pay for it for the,
Chris Lyle: I don't know actually what the outcome is that ~I don't, ~I don't really know what the outcome is it. I know that if it's. infringement. I think it's just an automatic transfer, but obviously you gotta pay for your legal fees. So ~like, ~what's the cost? Buying the domain or the legal fees? You know what I mean?
for you. They'll run up the [:Andrew Kamide: So what, all ~right. ~So we talked a little bit about this, ~right. ~When we started talking about the lawsuit to put people's minds at ease, there's nothing to worry about on their end, right? ~Like, like, ~what do you see happening potentially from this? I know that you mentioned in the chat or in a, either in a Facebook thread or in our private Facebook chat with everyone that it might actually end up being that.
~Uh, ~ClickFunnels will need to change their patent because it's too broad. It's covering too many things and. When they've ~kind of ~unearthed that in court, they'll find out that it's not actually a legal patent that they can withhold. And ~like, ~it'll stand up in court and it said something like that. I can't remember it, not to that extent, but I'm just articulating
that usually happens is the [:That's step number one. And if they think that the patents, they're not infringing on those patents, because those patents should be eventually in like invalid, like they should never have been granted in the first place, you can stay litigation. So you can tell the court saying ~like, ~Hey, we need to hold on this litigation real quick.
I'm going to file an ex parte proceeding with the U. S. patent and trademark office, where it's a whole nother court system and. G. H. L. High level is going to be the petitioner ~and ~and go after click funnels to get to two patents that they say that they're infringing on and say that they're invalid. So what's probably going to happen and what's going to transpire is litigation is going to be stayed.
So it's just going to be put on hold. ~Uh, ~high level is going to file an ex parte proceeding with the US patent trademark office to say that ~those two, ~those two patents should never been granted in the first place. They're going to fight it out in a patent court, essentially is what they're going to do.
then the judges will decide [: on website in Squarespace in:Is that another one out there? Or ~like,~
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. ~There's, ~there's a
Chris Lyle: that any different than that? You take those, you take or gravity from gravity forms the same
Andrew Kamide: Gravity
Chris Lyle: you would take those things, you would build a form, you would build logic into it. Based on the answers, it would direct you to different pages that you can I frame into a website.
o ClickFunnels couldn't have [:But if they uphold the claims over there, then it may go back to litigation. Then they'll go back in that proceeding,~ like, I mean, ~cause they'll say, okay, these are good. Now we're going to go back to litigation and then they're going to do the whole litigation thing. But at the end of the day, this is going to be a very long and drawn out process, unless they get to some sort of settlement agreement in the middle.
That's, ~you know, ~advantageous for both ends, but,~ um,~ that's ~kind of ~how it's going
Andrew Kamide: ~could, ~could high level. Yeah, I could high level walk away with this with a countersuit and say like damages things like that like where they're like ~kind of ~not slandering them, but almost Defacing or what is that defaming? It's their
Chris Lyle: mean, everybody has the right to, to raise a legitimate complaint, right? ~So, uh, ~if the complaint was invalid in the first place, ~I mean, ~you probably can get it out, but at the end of the day, everybody has the right to file. ~I mean, ~that's what we live in this country is right. You have the right to do whatever you want so long as it's valid on its face, filing a complaint.
~Right. ~[:It's going to be a whole nother procedure. And then they're going to try to invalidate those claims. ~I mean, ~validate those patents and those claims. And if that happens, then obviously the. Litigation is essentially just given up. ~It's ~it's done right?
Andrew Kamide: Yeah, so that's what I'm at Chris. That's what I'm saying is like if that happens Could high level just countersuit,~ like,~ would they have a legitimate case to countersuit? ~Like, ~of course they could countersuit, but they can come back and say, click funnels publicly, like all these things happened and they try to,~ you know, ~make it seem like we stole something from them.
And that's almost defamation in a way, or right. Like of their brand and their character
probably can even,~ uh, uh, ~[:~So, like, ~if they, if ClickFunnels, for example, loses, maybe they can get attorney fees out of it. I don't really know if that's a thing ~in, ~in ex parte. I don't really know. I don't do the litigation side of stuff. I do more of the prosecution stuff, getting people patents versus that. I just know how the procedure works because I do it every day.
~Uh, ~I see it every day. ~So, um, ~But yeah, ~I mean, ~they probably can get their attorney fees back, I would assume. But
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. That makes
Chris Lyle: yeah, ~I mean, ~it's going to be an interesting,~ uh,~ handful of years going forward to see what kind of what happens really.
Vit Muller: here's what I'm interested in. Like, ~why now, ~why now are they doing
Andrew Kamide: ~Well, ~I can answer that
Vit Muller: ~they had, ~they had a really bad, like they really failed miserably with the relaunch of ClickFunnels 2. 0 and I'm, I've got a feeling that, ~you know, ~they really falling behind the eight ball, high levels ~sort of ~getting up above and,~ um, You know,~
Andrew Kamide: That's why you just answered your answer, your own question, bro. ~Right. ~And then the whole tape of Russell Brunson, ~you know, ~allegedly striking that teenager in high, in the high school thing. ~I mean, ~they get up, they're going through a lot of shit. ~Right. ~So it's ~like, ~of course they're going to say,~ well,~ who's the number one person taking all of our business?
way from better than we were [:I guess I'd say, ~you~
Chris Lyle: This is totally like a spaghetti at the wall situation, like last ditch effort, I think. And I think that they probably have the resources to go through litigation on this, right? Cause obviously ClickFunnels is not, ~you know, ~a small business, ~you know? ~So ~I mean, ~yeah, ~I think, ~I think HighLevel is tapping into a lot of their ~Uh, ~and people are transitioning over and they're seeing it on their balance sheets, and this is the only potential aspect they have to ~kind of ~go after it.
~Right. ~And then maybe, ~you know, You know, ~maybe ~they're, ~they're bringing up this whole,~ like, you know, ~import your click funnels thing now. ~Right. Right. ~But that still goes back to the same thing I just talked about earlier. Like their code was exposed. So ~like, ~if you wanted to go in and Sergio knows this and I know this and you probably know this too.
ckFunnels,~ uh,~ thing ~is, ~[:And how's that any different than the whole hack the funnel? Just give it, it didn't ClickFunnels have the same thing, but you can just give it a URL and then it would ~like ~copy the funnel over to your account.
Andrew Kamide: Yep. And you know what it reminds me of? It's like a McDonald's moving in across the street from a Burger King, right? Where it's like anyone can do that and you can just build a McDonald's across your Burger King. You can't say that doing that is the reason why you're losing business.
They're just better at bringing people in, right? It's like They got the Birkin did something about the big Mac. It was ~kind of ~like the big Mac, but it was the King BK or some bullshit like that. It's ~like, ~they do, people do stuff all the time. They're funnel hacking everyone else. ~Right. ~So it's like the concept here is like you said, throwing spaghetti at the wall.
hundred miles an hour for a [:~Right.~
Vit Muller: I, I even heard stories,~ uh,~ somebody, I don't know if it was at,~ uh,~ when I was at the summit, but somebody said to me, a few people, different people told me that, ~you know, ~they were part of the ClickFunnel community and they were going to these events. And more recently, whenever they go, they actually don't even bother changing the shirt.
They just go there with a high level t shirt and just getting like people converted high
Andrew Kamide: dude, that's hilarious.
Chris Lyle: It's
Andrew Kamide: That's awesome. Yeah, I know. ~There's a, ~there's a lot of stories about ClickFunnels events and how they're like, they're not as good and they try to like make them better by only showing the stage and like the big, like CD or whatever, vinyl, gold, vinyl, silver, vinyl, all that stuff.
le, a demographic or base of [:Like it's just basic business at that point.
Chris Lyle: Has there ever been, has there ever been any public record of, or anybody say ~like ~what the valuation of ClickFunnels actually is? I'm just curious if
Andrew Kamide: that ~I'm, ~I'm.
Chris Lyle: a number. Cause it's an LLC, but it's probably ~like ~hidden behind closed door. Nobody really gonna know the valuation of that company.
But,~ uh,~ I was just thinking about this at night when I was like going to sleep and I was like thinking about this litigation. I was like, you know what,~ why,~ why now?
Exploring the Future of ClickFunnels and High Level
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Chris Lyle: Why would they do it? And I was just thinking in my head, I was like, could it be a ploy for them to ~like ~reach some sort of like table where they can have a discussion where ~like, ~maybe since GHL that they can buy out the software aspect of ClickPunnels and like ClickPunnels just maybe like focus
Vit Muller: oh,
Chris Lyle: aspect of my coaching stuff.
~Like, ~see, I don't think Sean would ever buy that platform from them. ~Um, but~
you think about the time in [:First of all, it might not, you might not get a hundred percent odds. Are you will not get a hundred percent, right? The second thing is it's going to take time. So if you're ~kind of ~calculating the time value of that customer base, and you're saying, is it better for us to pay for it now and try to get an ROI over the course of the next two years, or try to get more people over the next two years and.
Have to pay for marketing and sales and content and all that stuff. Like maybe that is ~kind of ~what they're doing is presenting this as a sale and saying, we already know you're going to take us down, so why not just buy it out? ~Right. ~They now have a ton of VC back and they got that additional VC that helped.
Who did they help? ~Like ~Uber and a couple other big names go IPO or something like that. Yeah. ~So, I mean, ~the money is there, they could easily buy ClickFunnels. I don't know what their valuation is, but I doubt it would be a difficult thing.
e valuable company than high [:Chris Lyle: yeah, I think so too. I think
Andrew Kamide: yeah, I do too. But if you've got to think about how, and this is something I'm learning about as well, how companies are being, how they're valuated. ~Right. ~And so if ClickFunnels was going like this for a decade and now they're going like this, ~right. ~Like that stagnation slash decline is magnified over a five to 10 year period.
So the valuation instantly changes. ~Right. ~So yeah, they're making more money now, but in five years, they're not, they will not be, especially if that is a consistent course.
Chris Lyle: But you also have to consider the fact ~that ~that number that there's their valuation number is not a hundred percent truly.~ Like, ~I think they have masterminds that people pay absorbent amount of money to be like in Russell Brunson's inner circle. So like how much of that money evaluation of that company is their SaaS, as their actual software themselves or all the other coaching aspects that they put into that as well.
mastermind is under the same [:I don't know. It's there's so many different ways that this could be diced up essentially in the future.
Vit Muller: here's what I think. I think it's what you just said, ~you know, ~masterminds and all that hype money. Like back then Russell Branson was the big names. It was all based on hype. And I think that hype has gone down way down, ~you know? ~So
Chris Lyle: I honestly think, ~I mean, ~I'm not Russell Brunson and I don't have the resources to do that, but if I thought about this in a logistical way, ~I mean, ~I'm, this is ~kind of ~like a shotgun idea. I would take my user base. I would bring them all. I would use my resources to bring them all over to high level as an affiliate, rebuild all their funnels and all your loyalty over ~in the, ~in the high level.
bring into your high ticket. [:Andrew Kamide: Yeah, man, ~you know, maybe, ~maybe that would, that's going to be an offer. ~Uh, ~from high level savvy,~ like,~ Hey, we have a 40 percent affiliate program. And then, ~you know, ~you want to focus on your mastermind. ~Like, you know, ~you could be a big name in the GHO community. And the fact that you're bridging the gap, you're building the bridge in.
In a land that has a giant, ~you know, ~river running through it. So you building that bridge shows good faith. It shows character. It shows integrity, like all kinds of things that if people just left click funnels, they wouldn't look back. They wouldn't go, Oh yeah, Russell Brunson deserves my money. ~Right.~
But if he did this, maybe they do and go, that's something I want to learn from somebody. I want to build a business around. ~Right.~
Chris Lyle: Yeah, for sure. For sure I mean he if you really think about it I mean click funnels is like this the software piece that he used to fuel But ~at the ~at the core of what Brussels is he's a guy who coaches He's a guy who tells you how to do it how to make the money how to make this work how the flow should be in A funnel right?
He just has a [:Exploring the Potential of a High-Level Mastermind
---
Chris Lyle: I don't really know what he's selling now, but I'm just saying the point I'm trying to make is that's him.
So if he got rid of ~that, ~that small piece of his business, handed it over to high level, took the affiliate commission on it, and then doubled down with the entire GHL community to be like, Hey, I'm the go to mastermind for GHL. I am the guy. That you should like from beginning to end, I will show you how to ~like ~make the most money possible online.
~I mean, ~that would be, I think that'd be really well for him. My first opinion.
Vit Muller: And I think it'd be great for, or the community. Cause just like you said, ~I mean, ~I can't think of anybody in a high level community that is like specifically really doubling down on like helping people build funnels, there isn't
Andrew Kamide: ~Well, ~there's a lot. ~I mean, ~
The Power of Collaboration in the High-Level Community
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Andrew Kamide: listen, you got ~your, ~your Rob Bailey's Matt DeSanto has mastermind coaching. You got all
Vit Muller: ~Well, ~Rob Bailey doesn't coach funnels. It's more about, ~you~
, ~it's part it's funnels is [:Like those names. And so Russell coming in. Like a, he's the most successful out of anyone that would be coaching, but be him teaming up with people like Rob Bailey, Matt DeSanto, beyond from extendedly like those people using and leveraging Russell Brunson as who he is. And then Russell Brunson using and leveraging them as who they are in the high level community.
That's dangerous, dude. ~That is a, ~that is a crazy storm waiting to happen. That people will pay fucking tons of money for it to be a part of.
Chris Lyle: Oh yeah. I agree.
Vit Muller: ~Can you, ~can you imagine like in a year from now, like we have an episode and we have ~like, you know, ~Rob Bailey. ~I mean, ~Rob Bailey is supposed to be on the night,~ right,~ with us, ~but~
be distributing this episode [:Vit Muller: Yeah, he's a good man. Yeah, definitely.
The Impact of Legal Challenges on Business Strategy
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Vit Muller: Hey guys,
Chris Lyle: comes down to the value ~of, of, of, of, ~of click funnels, right? ~Like ~what's that value to him and his, I don't know, on his balance sheet,~ like,~ what does it look like? ~Right? ~Cause if the path leads resistant, it may be just be like, yeah, maybe it's cheaper just to let it go and not pay legal fees, hop on the GHL bandwagon and ~like ~double down and make a ton of money.
And I honestly think he could do it for sure.
Vit Muller: depends on the ego. How big is his ego, ~you know?~
Chris Lyle: Yeah. It's ~like, ~what ~is he, ~is he want to hold onto his baby?~ Like, ~I don't,~ like,~ he's just trying to hold on, and ~this, ~this litigation is essentially that. He's trying to hold on to that. And have some sort of leverage of the market still. But in my personal opinion, ClickFunnels is not his leverage. It's him and his brand and his coaching.
that we're not going to get [:We're going to have a little bit more. ~You know, ~time to understand all this and,~ uh, you know, ~what's happening and what's going to happen. ~Um, ~
KickSaaS Legal: Revolutionizing Legal Services for SaaS Companies
---
Andrew Kamide: so ~let's, ~let's talk a little bit about what you're doing, Chris. ~Uh, ~kick ass legal, right? ~Kick ~SaaSs, kick SaaSs legal, kick ass, yeah, kick SaaSs legal, right? ~So, uh, ~you told me about this a while ago.
~So, you know, ~when you were on a call with me about Chet HQ, you told me about this and you showed me a little bit about it. ~Um. ~And it's amazing, right? ~Like, ~cause we actually,~ I,~ I reached out to you a few weeks ago, me and VIT. We're going to get you on here just for that reason, because people are building companies around high level on top of high level, and they don't have that type of legal leverage.
They're confused. They're, they don't understand their legal processes or what they can or can't do. And right. What's legal, what's not legal to do. And the fact that you have an all in one package or you have these done for you templates and this like basically just Click and submit SaaS that allows people to leverage those things.
This is fantastic. So can you tell us more about that?
s everybody in ~this, ~this, [:~So, um, ~but the biggest thing that I see in the community ~and I, ~and I just get drowned with messages all the time is ~like, you know, ~do you know somebody that does terms of use? Do you know about somebody that can write a privacy policy? ~You know, ~somebody that can do a cookie policy, like all these things that like, You need to have in place to have a valid like SaaS company up and running, like you got to have the terms of use that clearly defines what you're offering, the services you provide, what's acceptable, what's not acceptable, what happens upon termination, like data retention, all these things that you need to have, not just like GHL SaaS, but like any SaaS in general, you need to have some sort of terms of use, but the, ~you know, ~the shotgun method of most of these people is they go, so I'm going to go to, Zapier's website.
in and they want to build a [:And that could even go back to something stupid, simple. Like I started a business as a sole,~ as,~ as a individual, right? And I never started a company or LLC, like dumb, put a company between you and your personal assets to make sure that you're not exposing your house or your kids or whatever the heck you're doing ~on the back, ~on the back end.
So ~like, ~if somebody sues you, you're not losing ~your, ~your home. Essentially, right? So there's all these things that people don't understand, right? And ~the, ~the result of this is,~ uh,~ they don't know they need it. That's one thing, right? Two is that, okay, I do know I need it, but I don't, I can't afford to hire a attorney because I'm just starting my business.
I'm trying to make this thing work, right? So that's where this whole thing comes into place.
The Future of Legal Templates and Services
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s there. You can just go buy [:And I make them stupid simple. Like you just Fill in the apps, follow the notes that I have on the document, fill in all the things you need, and then boom, you have the terms and conditions. Boom, you have a privacy policy. Boom, you have a cookie policy. Or if you're an agency owner, you have ~like ~a master service agreement, or an independent contract agreement, or an NDA.
And ~you know, ~I just want to make it easy for people. So that's why I made that store is because I wanted people to have You know, it's written by me, an attorney, right? And it's honest legal services that are flat fees. ~Like, ~the number one thing, and maybe you know this, Andrew, or any of you know this, right?
ou. And it's a place for the [:~Right. ~I just want to make life easy. ~Right. ~Instead of having to like, Trust me, I used to work for a really big law firm and they want you to bill for everything. ~I, ~I can't justify the fact of billing somebody 500 for a 15 minute email, drives me nuts. I don't do things like that.
Andrew Kamide: a few things, ~right. ~So on that subject, when I went and got my first business lawyer, it was not a free consultation, but it was like 150 or 450 retainer. And that first consultation was included in that. And then what I had to do something like it was like in the movies, ~like ~give me a dollar. ~Right.~
And then I gave him a dollar. He's like, all right, now I can give you legal advice. I swear to God, this guy was like 80 years old. He actually passed away a few years ago. ~Um, ~but yeah, it was crazy. So that you're a hundred percent, right? Like it's way too much money, way too much like energy and time and effort for a phone call or an email, like getting dinged and nickel and dime for everything.
e second thing is,~ um,~ you [:You can see that like on chatty cheese website. ~Um, ~but I loved what you've done with it, but I'm curious, especially with ~like ~that slide out cart and stuff. ~Like ~did you have it custom coded using high level as a foundation?
Chris Lyle: I'm going to be honest. This is totally not built on high level. It's built on Shopify. But we use, we leverage it with GHL to do a lot of the stuff that we're doing, obviously because GHL has that Shopify integration, right? But built on Shopify because Shopify is the easiest place to build a store, like an e commerce store.
And that's essentially what this essentially is. It's come into, it's ~like, ~I'll do trademark services. I'll do responses to office action of trademarks. And it's ~all, ~all a cart or package services or bundles or whatever it is. And you can just come there and I'll tell you the price, purchase it, and then you'll get it.
~I mean, it's, ~it's clear. I just try to make it easy for people.
ought about offering this as [:You don't have anything in place. ~Like, ~is that something that you're thinking about doing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Vit Muller: This is so common, by the way.
Chris Lyle: No, but I would do, I would totally do it. ~I mean, ~all I got to do is slap out a logo into something else. And all of a sudden there's a, you're giving your end user a template,
Vit Muller: Yeah. Small local businesses all the time. Like I asked him, Hey, do you have a terms,~ like,~ do you, ~you know, ~terms policy and privacy policy? At least those ~like, ~no,
Andrew Kamide: ~So,~ so Chris, I'm going to, I'm going to need 25 percent equity in that. And,~ uh,~ no,
Chris Lyle: Are you going to
Andrew Kamide: I know a really,
Chris Lyle: it's all works or
Andrew Kamide: I know a really good trademark patent and IP attorney that,~ uh, you know, ~I'll give you his number. He's a good guy.
f for my SaaS. ~Um, ~through [:So when, how do you handle that? So I know ~you can, ~you can get your template and you just fill in the blanks and then you slap in the website and then you're good to go. But I know that I've been getting emails maybe every three months or something from this other company that I use from this
Andrew Kamide: State based changes and stuff.
Vit Muller: yeah, to do with privacy policy and mostly, and it's ~like ~no action required. And they just push it into my website because it's an HTML embed. Yeah,
Chris Lyle: Yeah. ~I mean, ~there's a lot of services out there that are just like HTML beds and they just automatically push it in there and they comply with a lot of the laws as well, but even in those, ~I mean, I, ~I would say there's like many levels of it's ~like, ~do it yourself, try to figure it out or have chat, and then there's ~like, ~have chat GPT, write me something, which I do not advise at all.
ort of, but those are really [:More like they're more. Legal base, the written by me about an attorney. It covers a little bit more, a little more specific. And then there's the last step, which is like hiring an attorney, have them make you a custom one yourself. ~Right. ~So I'm ~kind of like, ~if you had that threshold, I'm ~kind of ~the top, but not quite the exorbitant fee of an attorney.
Andrew Kamide: bro, you should have that
Chris Lyle: but yes, in template wise though,
Andrew Kamide: Chris, you should legit have that table, that, that timeline on your website, like that, what you just described, that would be an amazing sales tool for unlike the homepage, be like, you don't want to do it yourself, this, and then, ~you know, ~here's termly and these other guys,~ like,~ sure, you can go with them, but it's not niche specific.
And then you're here and then you're like, or paid 10, 000 to an attorney. ~I mean, ~that's a, dude, that's a conversion waiting to happen, bro. We're going to talk,
Chris Lyle: up right now. ~Um,~
Vit Muller: But yeah,~ um,~ I'll let you finish,~ um,~ the answer to that question actually, in terms of being current, how do you,
now, they cover all the most [:But this should get you 94. 5 percent 98 percent close to the end result. Majority of this stuff is standard, right? Cause e commerce, for example, or websites it's interstate commerce. Like ~the, ~the laws and regulations and privacy are ~kind of ~like the same stuff, like from state to state. But,~ uh,~ yeah, if something changes,~ uh,~ I update my template.
So like the new version of the template would be available on the site. ~Right. ~And actually I haven't even put this in the, in place because there hasn't been a really big shift since,~ um,~ I think just recently like Utah or Colorado or some other state has some extra privacy stuff that I need to put into my stuff.
~Um, ~but I think I'm just going to offer, like if you buy the template, for example, if there's an update to a template, it would just blast email. Everybody would be like, Hey, there's an update to the law. Here's a new template. Here's a new template. Just upgrade your template for 15, like 10. Something stupid, right?
Just to accommodate the time or something like that. ~Um,~
Kamide: Listen, SaaS master, [:Chris Lyle: just come in and just roll with me and help me do it
Andrew Kamide: I will. I will, dude. Yeah. I'll be your fractional CMO product guy. Let's do it, bro. ~So, um, ~seriously though, ~like ~do a bundle where it's slightly reduced prices on the contracts and you pay a small monthly fee.
There's your subscription based renewal fee, right? ~Your, ~your MRR. And now you've got people that, I They don't have to worry about any of that shit and it just automatically updates for them and they're paying 20 bucks a
Vit Muller: because that's what I like about Termly,
Andrew Kamide: ~19~ bucks. Yeah,
Vit Muller: so ~if you, ~if you can compete, ~like ~make it, ~you know, ~we ~kind of ~take the Termly model, but the problem was they were too broad. Like you said, they're too broad. We took that model, but we're more on a specific, see, I'll be jumping on that. I'll be switching
yeah, I've got an idea here. ~Like, ~cause like you could totally ~like ~have custom fields, right? You got,~ uh,~ you got a sub account ~for, for, ~for SaaS, KickSaaS, right? People who sign up for this, you just, they just fill in a form and those populate in those custom fields. And then you inject those custom fields into a,~ well,~ I was going to say AI from doesn't need to be, you just inject it into the document.
So whenever [:Andrew Kamide: ~Well,~
Chris Lyle: had a discussion with my developers that would help me build Compbox because it's like a AI based legal research tool ~that we, ~that we built for,~ uh,~ our industry. I've already talked to them about this. I'm like, build something that, ~you know, ~does X, Y, Z was exactly similar to what you're talking about here, where it just automatically does a document for you.
And then anyways,
Vit Muller: I love this shit. ~I mean, that's, ~that's the thing I do. I really love building snapshots and like
Andrew Kamide: I was just going to say,~ VIT,~ VIT is crazy good with snapshots and I'm not kidding.
CONTINUE
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Vit Muller: . So ~here's the, ~here's the segue. ~Um, ~
Navigating Intellectual Property and Data Protection
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Vit Muller: you were talking about like patents and how they like have their lifetime, like 20 years. And I think that differs, but have you guys heard about that?
~Um, ~Disney's Mickey Mouse is now up for grabs.
Andrew Kamide: No,
Chris Lyle: the, really,
Andrew Kamide: somebody can buy it.
Vit Muller: No, you can do whatever the fuck you want with Mickey.
Andrew Kamide: ~It's like, ~it's like a drug going from patented to ~like ~building generics. You just build generic Mickey mouses.
Vit Muller: ~You can, ~you can take Mickey Mouse and just ~like, you know,~
Chris Lyle: I've never looked into this, is
him into whatever you want. [:You can use it in your marketing. You can, whatever the fuck
Chris Lyle: what was it protected under though? Because I know before they would always like leverage the whole trademark or ~like, you know, ~they trademark Disney characters
Vit Muller: ~They kept, they kept, ~they kept extending that,~ um, um, ~trademark. There was a few extensions of it. Mickey mouse,
Andrew Kamide: I wonder why they stopped or if they had to stop at some point.
Vit Muller: Yeah, it is. ~Um,~
Chris Lyle: you're making use of it, you should be able to just continue on. I've never heard of ~like ~a trademark having an expiration date ever. Like you just keep, as long as you're using it in commerce, like you can use it.
Vit Muller: yeah, so there's a few articles. Mickey Mouse, arguably one of the most iconic cartoon characters of all time. ~We'll be, ~we'll be entering the public domain when the films copyright expires in 24. Yeah.
Chris Lyle: Wow.
Vit Muller: ~So, you know,~
Chris Lyle: Wow.
Vit Muller: I'll definitely ~like, ~think about maybe using it in my marketing some way, ~like ~have fun with it.
ns of it though, since then, [:Vit Muller: ~yeah, yeah, yeah, ~yeah.
Chris Lyle: like ~the, ~the old ones, it's just like the 19, whatever commercials. ~Right. ~Like the old ones.
Vit Muller: there are some
Andrew Kamide: Oh,~ maybe,~ maybe that Mickey is up for grabs. That old stick fucking weird looking Mickey. And now the new one's still protected. Who knows?
Chris Lyle: Yeah. Interesting. I've never, I'm not a copyright attorney. I don't know this stuff. ~Like, ~I know it falls in my realm of like intellectual property stuff, but ~like, ~that's not my cup of tea. Like hardware and software is my thing. Like I just. Talk dev nerd stuff.
Andrew Kamide: which dude, when you told me about when you told me about kick SaaSs a while ago, I was using still use termly. ~Um, ~but like now I'm probably gonna be launching my high level SaaSs soon just for some side money and stuff. Because it's so damn easy now. When I say easy, it's like they've, since we've been around, ~right.~
Me and you've been in high level. It was a fucking mess. And there was no SaaS mode. There was no this. Now it's ~like, ~you got VIT over here, building snapshots. You got extendly, you got white label suite. And it's like ~money, money, ~money in go get customers. You're
Chris Lyle: Yeah. And you just go after one small niche and it's just finally tune. Yeah.
Andrew Kamide: [:And I think it's a great idea because a lot of these people aren't. Experts in any way, shape or form in legal, not even close. Like someone like me, I've been doing this for 15 years and I don't know the fucking first thing about whether I'm going to get sued for something or not. ~Right. ~Like I could do the wrong thing and get sued.
And then, ~you know, ~I'm kicking myself cause I didn't spend 500 on something that could have protected me. ~Right. So. ~And I know it wouldn't fully protect, I'm just saying like in general, like knowing the realm that you're entering, like having a map and then taking the route and the journey instead of just blindly going through it ~is, ~is
Chris Lyle: if I can give you any words of wisdom or advice for anybody who's listening to this about if they're thinking about starting a GHL SaaS, ~I mean, ~you should really just put your ducks in the row and it should ~kind of ~fall in this order. If that makes sense, form a business. If you have a business with somebody else, have an operating agreement.
of the, ~of the business and [:Don't make a sole proprietorship, make an LLC, right? Put something between your personal assets and your business. That way, if your business goes belly up, LLC just goes away. And then all of a sudden you still got your house, essentially, is what it really comes down to, right? Build a business. If you have it with other people, or even yourself, you should have an operating agreement.
So like you clearly define what the structure of the business is, right? And then after that is ~like, ~what are you going to be selling? What are you going to be offering? Boom. And then make sure you have things in place for those. For example, like your terms of use for your SaaS, like your privacy policy or cookie policy, if you're going to offer agency services on top of your SaaS as a side thing, make sure you have a master service agreement.
Cause your terms of use is not going to cover some things like website building, for example, right? You're going ~to have ~to have the math, a separate master service agreement of ~like ~what it's that's right. And all those templates are in kick ass legal. You can just download them and buy them. ~Right. ~And they're there for you to modify.
Another big one that [:Andrew Kamide: I, you know how many emails
Vit Muller: what I wanted to ask
Chris Lyle: the time.
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. Yeah. You know how many emails I get from people's high levels that I'm an admin in, because I had to be an admin for something for chatty HQ or something for my, like ~whether, ~whether I'm doing marketing services and I'm just getting all these emails.
~Like, ~dude, can you like tell, I tell them all the time, ~like ~cut me out, ~like ~get me out of there. I'm not doing any work in there. That is a huge liability.
Vit Muller: for them. Yeah. Yeah. Because they get, ~I mean.~
Chris Lyle: And also, ~I mean, ~it depends on the industry as well. ~I mean, like ~if you're going to let
Andrew Kamide: they're exposing contacts to me for hundreds of sub accounts like that's I
Chris Lyle: ~I mean, there's, ~there's, if you're going to let a contractor or somebody in your system, there's two things that I honestly, if they're an employee, it's different because they're going to, they fall more on the employment realm.
ks about all the stuff, like [:I have everybody. I don't care who you are. If you're going to have a login to Law Hustle, you are signing an NDA. Not necessarily my clients, because they fall under the terms of use. I'm talking about people that come in and do work for me or do extra stuff for our clients, something like that. I make them sign an NDA.
Because the last thing I want is somebody to see What we do with our snapshot and our AI and all the innovating stuff we do for law firms. And then be like, I'm going to build my own. And they're going to go do their stuff. Like I do that for purpose and everybody should do the same.
of NDA and service agreement [:Then they get a log into your high level.
Chris Lyle: That's genius. Actually. Yeah.
Vit Muller: ~um, you know, ~Ben, if you guys listening, ~you know, ~I don't know what, how it rolls on the extended side, but I've had my experience with HL Pro Tools,~ like,~ cause I'm with them, I tell you,~ like,~ there was nothing from their end, and I obviously didn't put anything in place either,~ so,~ there's a gap, and, ~You know, ~it's a big one because one thing is NDA is for your proprietor, like your IP, right?
But the other thing is the, it is really the more important one is protection of data of personal
Andrew Kamide: Oh
Vit Muller: inside every single sub account are people that have no idea that you, that ~they, ~they opted in for a newsletter. And there are so many of these third party people that have access to this stuff. That is a big thing.
That's one thing that, and I [:Andrew Kamide: yeah. ~Think,~
Vit Muller: I know you can, I know you can pay for HIPAA, but that's more just, ~you know, uh,~
Andrew Kamide: for ~like ~the actual niches, like the doctor niches. Yeah. But think about the liability of, and listen, I'm ~very, ~very good friends with Bayon, like I would never like put anything like him and Matt DeSanto ~in ~In a bubble and say like it's bad. But what I'm saying is when I don't have any knowledge of when they go into your high level, what they're, ~I mean, ~they're getting a lot of information and stuff like that.
g stuff that they're writing [:So it would always, and again, this may impede the actual subscription of. Extendly your HL pro tools. ~Like ~if you were to purchase it and say, Hey, I need you guys to sign this. I don't know what that would ~like ~come to, like if that would change the course of that purchase. But I think it's smart in general.
And if that was a very specific use case, whether it's HL pro tools, growthable, extendly, they don't want to do that. That's your choice. That's your conversation to have. But. ~You know, ~just bringing someone into your admin. ~This is, ~this is an incredibly fragile situation that could backfire easily. Right?
Like especially a VA, somebody in India that you have no legal course of action against, and you're just letting them in and giving them access to everything. That's insane.
u know when they are hiring? [:How do you know,~ like,~ cause it's not dedicated, right? ~I mean, ~I know ~like ~there's different plans, but you might have,
Andrew Kamide: sorry to interrupt, but I will say this because I've experienced now with Beyonce new support OS software that he just launched, they connect through the marketplace. And so high level is going to be like a mitigator. They're like a middleman. Cause when you connect to the marketplace, there is no ~like ~give us agency access.
Nobody from Extendly has agency access into my high level. It's the marketplace app that then has access to the API and has access to everything they need. So that. Right there tells me
Chris Lyle: one.
Andrew Kamide: that's a better way to do it. Yeah. And maybe Matt, the sandwich going in that direction, but the minute you give somebody at admin access,~ you're,~ you're setting yourself up for failure.
~Right. Like ~what you were saying.
Vit Muller: yeah,
Chris Lyle: mean, think about it. How many times in the group have you seen, ~you see like, you know, ~messages come up or somebody says ~like, ~Hey, there's this other person selling the same thing that I do. ~Right. ~Like it happened to be an event coming from something like that. ~Right.~
Andrew Kamide: dude.
Chris Lyle: yourself, man. Put these things in place.
or example, if your NDA, for [:Like the odds are they're not going to play when you start puffing your chest and say, I don't agree to these terms. It needs to be ~this, this, ~this, and this. That's when they start like getting defensive, whether they're actually going to proceed with it or not. ~Right. So, um, ~And NDAs, to be honest, ~I mean, ~they're like, ~you know, ~one, two page, three page documents at the most, right?
I think ours and our access legal is,~ uh,~ is literally probably like a page and a half,~ maybe,~ maybe two pages at the most. ~Right. ~And we have two versions of it. We have a bilateral one and we have a unilateral one. So you would use a unilateral one for, I want to hold the cards. I have more IP than you have to, you're going to show it to me.
You're just coming in to do work for me. ~Right. ~Bilateral be like, you're bringing in somebody to help build you like,~ uh,~ let's say for example, on AI Asia, ~right. ~They have. They have their own knowledge in AI, but you have your own knowledge in your niche. You're coming together to build something ~in your, ~in your snapshot.
That would be [:Andrew Kamide: Yeah. I don't think I ever told. Either of you, this,~ well,~ obviously not you, Chris, ~you know, ~we don't talk as much as me and that do, but me and when me and Sergio built our white label doc, so our white label knowledge base and white label help guides for high level, there's something we built for a while ago to get some revenue in and it ~kind of ~grew and became a huge thing.
~Uh, ~we had somebody literally rip off. They use the same third party provider that we used. They built their website.~ You know, ~we, yeah, we use get booked for the knowledge base, but then we use used to full for the guides. And so this was before it was like common knowledge. Cause useful had ~like ~a lifetime deal and everybody started talking about it.
and videos from our website [:I wrote ~that ~that's my brain. No ai This is before chat, GBT and we, I went hard. I was like, dude, you need to fucking stop, like ~kind of like ~a cease and desist through just conversation. And he pulled it all down. I went the next day, his website was down. So we might've just moved it and like still kept going.
But,~ um, you know, ~I'd
Vit Muller: I will put,
Chris Lyle: you do. You go to kickasslegal. com, search cease and desist letter. And there's a bunch of them in there.
Andrew Kamide: hell yeah. Ooh, how
Vit Muller: so here is what I'm going to do. I'm going to throw in a little gift. ~Um, ~today I will, for those of you guys listening into the show notes, if you go into podcast. highlevelexperience. com and go in the show notes of this episode. You can get access to download,~ um,~ a code that you add on your website and it protects all texts.
able. And the same thing for [:Andrew Kamide: of just copy other people's images. My website.
Vit Muller: know, because I do that with my snapshots, right? Agencies that buy my snapshots,~ like,~ okay, ~well ~you guys, ~I mean, ~and they're more expensive for a reason. ~Um, ~I. ~you know, ~there's a lot of work, but B,~ um,~ I also don't want too many agencies using it because then the competitive advantage, this, ~you know, ~diminishes.
So I actually make every single page on like in the funnels and things like that protected by default. And ~I mean, ~them agencies. The agencies that buy this, they benefit too, because that protects their shit. So it's ~kind of ~like trying to minimize, yeah, should be copied and fucking
Andrew Kamide: Cool.
Chris Lyle: Does it prevent other bots from calling the site? I'm just curious. Or is it just
O part of the websites. So I [:I automatically apply those and that's also all of my snapshots. I
Andrew Kamide: Can you,
Chris Lyle: add the, like Ahrefs, like bot to like your Robotex file. So that way that one can crawl the site if they need
Vit Muller: Yeah. You don't have to do that because it's already on every single page like that.
Andrew Kamide: does that stop chad GPT from crawling your site? That would stop chad GPT, right? So that would affect that, but I'm curious, can you use custom values for that? So like in your snapshots have a custom value that's like robot, yes or no. And if they don't fill it out, it just allows crawling and then no, you can't do that.
Yeah. Cause I know where you're talking about in the SEO
Vit Muller: ~I do, ~I do use custom values for when you put ~like, um, ~The SEO,~ uh,~ page title,~ um,~ and page description, you can put a custom value of the sub accounts name and that works, but not the actual metadata. No.
Andrew Kamide: ~hmm. ~Okay,
Chris Lyle: Interesting.
Andrew Kamide: ~well, ~listen, I think
Chris Lyle: new every day. I didn't even know this was a thing.
Wrapping Up: Legal Insights and Future Directions
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re anything else you want to [:Chris Lyle: ~Uh, I mean, ~I think we dug into it. ~I mean, ~the really whole point of this.
Andrew Kamide: Yeah.
Chris Lyle: And I think it's a ripe and juicy topic right now because everybody's ~like, ~what is going on? But ~I mean, it's, ~it's typical litigation. It's going to be a long time, so I wouldn't even worry about it. But I'd be interested to see how the whole business landscape changes. Through the whole course of this, ~right.~
They're going to have discussions council to council about what's going on. ~Right. ~So it'd be interesting to see, so we're not going to be privy to it, obviously, cause we're not clients of theirs, but we'll, we may see or hear about it.
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. ~And, ~and don't downplay yourself, man. You are a high level OG. So like I said, me and Vic, we're going to get you in here before ~this, ~this just happened to be like a nice, perfect combination of opportunity, ~you know, ~meets, ~you know, ~value and all that stuff. ~So, uh, really, ~really thankful for you to be on here, bro.
~Uh, ~it was good seeing you again. I haven't seen in a little while since our last call. ~So, uh, ~definitely going to jump on a call after this and,~ uh,~ talk, talk shop and talk business, but,~ uh,~ appreciate you being here, man.
Chris Lyle: Yeah. I appreciate it for having you for having me. I appreciate it.
: really good having you and [:Andrew Kamide: ~Well,~ yeah, man,
Vit Muller: We talked about
Chris Lyle: ~hopefully, ~hopefully I have my other one going and I'm like less and less, ~you know, ~dependent on GHL and also not have this like other SaaS company blowing up. That'd be nice, but we'll see, ~you know, ~in my day of life, if I can just ~like ~choose to go surf or work,~ like,~ I think that's a win for me, ~you know, ~so
Andrew Kamide: where I was at before I got into software. When I was doing marketing stuff, I chose ~like, ~do I want to work today and like mess with ads or do I want to go golf or something, ~right. ~Or go to the beach, ~you know? ~So that's, I hear you, man. That's that beautiful combination of making money and. Yeah. That's what we all do this for. ~Right. ~I think ~that ~that's the goal is like, you want to make a lot of money. You want to put like things in place for your family and all that stuff. But the ability to wake up, not stressed the ability to wake up, not freaking out because you don't know where your next paychecks coming from.
~You know, ~it's ~like, ~that's a really good feeling.
e just, ~he just reminded me [:There's nothing more relaxing. ~Right.~
Chris Lyle: golf on the cliffs or like golfing balls off the cliffs?
Vit Muller: ~Well, ~no smoke a blunt and the golf.
Chris Lyle: Oh,
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. No, he was asking, are you hitting balls off the
Chris Lyle: you're like just taking buckets of balls out and just smacking them off into the ocean. I was like, that's, that'd be wild too.
Andrew Kamide: Yeah.
Vit Muller: yeah, it was, yeah, maybe I can't remember. Yeah, it was a while back, but
Andrew Kamide: You can't raise like I was too high. I can't remember.
Vit Muller: All right. Let's wrap it up. Let's wrap it up. So guys, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. ~Uh, ~we didn't do any beef today, but,~ um,~ you're welcome to submit one and we will feature it in the next episode as well as if you've got anything inspiring you'd like to share, that would be also cool, ~so.~
to help you grow your agency [:com. As promised, I will drop that,~ um,~ code in there so you guys can check it out in the show notes. ~Um, ~there's a different site for the episodes, by the way, it's podcast. highlevelexperience. com. But even if you go to the main one, it'll direct you there. ~Um, ~so thank you guys for listening. Thank you, Chris, for jumping on board.
Today's episode was really insightful. ~Um, you know, ~we really like these, ~you know, ~special specialized, ~you know, ~like really focused episodes. And today was all about, ~you know, ~legal stuff. ~Um, ~and I'm sure we can dive in more. So probably follow up is due in a couple of months time, but
Andrew Kamide: more thing. We're going to have a link in the show notes,~ uh,~ in the YouTube description to kick SaaS legal. So if you guys love what Chris is doing, you guys really want to, ~you know, ~get some bundles and templates for all your legal stuff, we will have a link in the show notes and in the YouTube description for that.
Vit Muller: yeah. And that NDA needs to be there as well. We need to work that out
Andrew Kamide: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
~Uh, ~both of you being here [:If you're interested to be on our next episode as a guest, you can do that too. And if you're interested to advertise,~ um,~ you can do that too. We have some packages now available. All of that can be found on highlevelexperience. com.
Andrew Kamide: Thanks, Chris. Appreciate you, bro.
Chris Lyle: problem. Appreciate it.
