The dialogue presented herein elucidates the profound contention surrounding the term "evangelical," which has increasingly been perceived as toxic due to its entanglement with political aspirations, as articulated by James Davison Hunter. He posits that the conflation of faith and nationalism has led to an erosion of the essence of Christianity, transforming it into a socio-political movement rather than a genuine expression of creedal belief. Hunter's lamentation encompasses the current state of the church, particularly within evangelicalism, where the politicization has alienated a generation of believers. As we traverse this complex landscape, we are compelled to reflect upon the implications of our identity as Christians amidst a culture that often prioritizes political allegiance over spiritual integrity. This conversation beckons us to reconsider not only the terminology we employ but also the foundational principles that ought to guide our engagement with the broader society, as we strive to embody the essence of our faith in a manner that transcends mere political affiliation.

In this bonus episode James Davison Hunter goes down deep into our political climate and what we as Christ-followers should do. He gives a bleak look at American evangelicalism and calls for a different approach than one that relies or requires cultural power.

Takeaways:

• Travis Michael Fleming highlights the growing concern over the term 'evangelical' becoming toxic due to its heavy politicization.
• James Davison Hunter expresses his disassociation from evangelicalism as a political movement, preferring to identify as a creedal Christian.
• The discussion emphasizes the necessity for the church to redefine its role and engage holistically in cultural apologetics.
• Both speakers agree that the church's political alignment has alienated many young Christians, necessitating a return to gospel-centered identity.
• Hunter argues that a healthy democracy requires civil society institutions to remain independent of political affiliations.
• The episode concludes with a call for Christians to focus on loving others and engaging in meaningful dialogue, transcending political divides.

Thank you for subscribing and becoming one of our watering partners. We wanted to give you a bit of behind the scenes of our conversation, or my conversation with James Davidson Hunter.

This is when James was pretty raw and James was basically lamenting the condition of where the church is today and Christianity especially, especially evangelicalism. You, you will hear him say that he's no longer an evangelical. And what he means by that is that he's no longer an evangelical in the political sense.

He's basically saying, I'm a creedal Christian.

But for him the term has become so difficult and you're going to hear him say toxic, that it no longer conveys the gospel, that it's become so politicized. And he's not the first to say this, by the way.

There have been several different theologians that have called for an end to the term because it has been so co opted to be used politically. So I want you to listen to a few of the things that he's saying here. Is evangelicalism toxic?

Should we continue to use the term or should we simply be known as the Confessing Church as Dietrich Bonhoeffer talked about the church that confesses that Jesus is the Christ. Or should it be something else entirely?

Maybe we should just go back to use the term Protestant Theologian David Wells several years ago decided to abandon the term and he just went back to using the term Protestant. Should we do something similar?

So I want you to listen to that and then I'll come in with some concluding thoughts based upon what James talked about.

With those challenges that we have in front of us, I mean, we have a social credit that is very low. Our credit score is not done well culturally. Some of that is earned, of course, because of different cultural battles.

But we do know that there are those who are, are genuinely doing what God wants them to do. They're genuinely sacrificing, they're genuinely serving, and they're genuinely loving where they are at.

But what word do we give to them and these pastors that are trying to lead these churches in the midst of a contentious part where it's not just their church versus the world in many respect, it's their church versus their church, right? It's brother versus brother. How do we help them to recapture language that's either you're for or against, you're with us or not?

I had one man comment after listening to one of our episodes. He goes, listen, we know that the political candidates are terrible. We know this, that's a given. But what else do we do in the middle of all this.

So because as you also mentioned in your book, we are a pragmatic bunch. We're very much of a pragmatic bunch about what do we do.

So what words of wisdom or guides do you have for those who are trying to faithfully follow Jesus in the midst of a culture, a current which they themselves are caught up in?

Well, I think I want to preface this comment by. And maybe I should have prefaced some earlier comments as well. I. I am a creedal Christian identify with the historic creeds of the.

Of historic Christianity. I am not an evangelical and it is for precisely the reasons that I gave.

The evangelical movement is a socio political movement that is defined in political aspirations and a kind of Nietzschean will to power. And I think that that as a movement, evangelicalism carries themes that are nothing less than apostate.

And this is not to say that that all evangelicals by a long shot. I'm not saying that evangelicals are apostate, but the movement as far as it's.

Conceived politically or understood.

Yeah, and I think that there's. Yeah. I mean especially on the political side of things.

And, and I think the reason for this is that there so many evangelicals have conflated their faith, the nation state with America itself so that they. There's no difference between what it means to be a Christian and what it means to be an American. In that sense there is very.

There's not much of a gap there. And again, I think this has been an evolution. I don't think this is always the case, but I think it is now.

And I think on the left and on the right there are all sorts of idolatries going on, but this is the idolatry of the Christian right. The fact of the matter is that to be a Christian doesn't require one to be or to associate with any political movement.

And to do so, to make that part of a litmus test is in fact a sign of idolatry.

I think it's also very important to note that in our Nietzschean political culture, one of the manifestations of it is the politicization of every institution of civil society.

A healthy democracy has a civil society oppression, a schooling system, a higher education, a philanthropic world, a world of journalism that sees itself as independent of one party or another. It occupies the middle ground between the lives of individuals and the state. And that's where democracies thrive. It's why the Arab Spring never.

It finally died and it never took root this really important moment because there was no civil society this mediating set of institutions. Well, the church, as Tocqueville argues, is one of those mediating institutions. It's part of civil society.

But rather than mediating, it is identified with a party and therefore it's no longer doing its job of informing and educating the public. And the church is most doing its best political work when it's not doing politics at all. That's what Tocqueville argued.

I think that is one of the lessons of Scripture. And it doesn't mean that we're not voting.

It doesn't mean that we're not playing a part politically, but we have made an idolatry on the left and on the right. People have made an idolatry of politics and if so, associated their particular approach to Christianity with a particular approach to, to politics.

It becomes simply apostate. And I believe that this is a moment. I genuinely believe this is a moment when we have an opportunity to become the church again.

In other words, that the marginalization of the church represents an opportunity for the church to become the church and not simply an arm of the state that props up the empire. And again, this could be said about the left and on the right because I think it's, it's true on both sides, but that's going to make me popular.

And it is precisely for that reason that the word evangelical has become so toxic.

Because to become an evangelical is in the minds of so many of these talking heads and leaders to become political not only on certain, on certain issues, but in the way that they have become political. Not just the position, but the means to achieve that position. And it is alienating an entire generation of young Christian people. It's toxic.

It's, it's, it's like radioactive. It, this is a word, the word evangelical is so radioactive, so identified with a kind of coercive political orientation.

It won't be usable theologically for over a hundred years. I'm convinced of that.

It's a big statement and it's that.

Idolatry that I want nothing to do with. So I tell a story at the end of a book called before the Shooting Begins. I published about. It was 30 years ago. It was the follow up to Culture Wars.

And I tell this story about a teenage girl who came into the Planned Parenthood Clinic in St. Louis. I think the one that was featured in the Casey decision. And she had gotten pregnant out of wedlock. She was believe under the age of 15.

Boyfriend abandoned her. She was sure that her parents would not. Would. Would abandon her. So she came in for an abortion.

And when they explained what the procedure was going to be, she freaked out. She said, I can't go through with this. So the head of the Planned Parenthood Clinic in St.

Louis called her arch rival in the pro life movement and said, explained the situation and said, we've got this young girl who came in. She's changed her mind. Can you help?

Wow.

Neither side gave up their convictions. They didn't compromise their convictions, pro choice or pro life.

What they did is that they brought the passion of their convictions around a real human being who is in real need. And the result was they found a home for her. This young girl gave birth to this child. A home was found for the child. They work together.

It speaks to what Catholic theologians have called casuistry. It's kind of ethical, arguing through the cases. So it's a real life human being who has need. And they came together to find a solution for her.

None of the symbolic politics, none of the posturing, none of the coercive power of the state used against each other. They helped a real life human being and they brought this unborn child to life as a consequence, and they found some common ground. That's doing the.

That's doing the hard work.

It is hard work.

That's very.

And it's not visible, but that seems to me to be the place where we Christians need to be and where evangelicals ought to be as well.

James talked about a ton of different things. As I said at the beginning, he says that the.

The term evangelical has become toxic because it's become so politicized and so drunk with power and a pursuit of power. He is saying that the church needs to really start to think holistically about how to make these changes. And there are so much.

You might agree with many of the things that he said, or you might disagree with many of the things that James said.

Whatever the case may be, we don't have a really good image right now, publicly now, aside from the last election cycle where many Christians voted for Donald Trump to see some changes, and there have been some changes. But the question really is, are we really setting up the world or are we really conducting ourselves in a manner that is true of Jesus?

I'm not talking about just the end result. Who are we becoming as we go through this? Are we actually willing to converse with other people with different opinions in order to win them?

If not, why not? Well, you might say they're unwinnable, and you might be right. But does that mean that we are then dismissed from the task of trying?

I don't think so. I think that if we're really to win people, we're not going to win them politically.

Now, politics for me is, as James Davison Hunter said, it is an administration tool or administrative tool. Biblically, politics is to act as a. To restrain evil and to enable the good. And that's the task of it. That's the purpose of it.

It can't change hearts. Now, it doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. It does matter. It really does matter. But it can't do the deep work of change.

The only way that we can have the deep work of change done is to really go back to the word of God and what the word of God says and understand the story of God and our place in it.

When we start to understand our place within the story of God, we start to get a better glimpse and understanding of our place in the world as a whole.

There are so many different theological systems that are out there that basically say, put politics aside, it doesn't matter that we have a spiritual kingdom. And I think they're wrong. I think that the kingdom of God, while it's not from this world, it is for this world.

And it's to show us how to live and how to help place everything under Jesus feet. And that's where our unique approach comes in.

Now we're going to be talking about this periodically over the next several months, but it starts with the book blueprint where we start to get an idea of how we are to engage the world at a really core level that it's about the Great Commandment, learning how to love God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength.

We're to love our neighbor as ourselves, but then we are to be with the people of God that God's called us into this community and that is the great community.

And then that community is to be basically a lab to show people the reality of the Great Commandment being worked, worked out so that the Great Commission can be accomplished.

And to try to accomplish the Great Commission without an understanding of the Great Commandment and the great community in some respect is to get a person saved. It's like pulling a fish out of water and not putting them back in more water.

They need to have a community around them to where that these things can be worked out. It can't be just show up church on Sunday, hear a sermon and then leave and have no engagement during the week. That's not how God designed it to be.

So I would encourage you to get my book blueprint and let us know, do you agree with some of the things that James Davidson Hunter says? Do you think that he was completely wrong in that?

We want to hear from you, so send me an email, let me know travispolloswater.org or comment on our Facebook page, whatever it might be. We want to be able to hear from you to say, do you agree with him? Do you not agree with him?

And then help us, as we're trying to help one another, decide how can we have the right posture to engage the world for the glory of God.

With that in mind, I want to thank you again for tuning in and listening to this bonus part of my conversation with James Davison Hunter, and I hope and pray that you check out the next conversation with Christopher J.H. wright as we talk about the story of God and our place in it. God bless you and have a great day.