What if friendship belonged on your health checklist right alongside movement, sleep and everything else we’re told to do as part of our overall wellness?

I have thought about friendship differently ever since meeting Dr. Sue Varma. Because as much as I love my friends, I also know the feeling of wondering whether I’m doing enough, and I know how easy it is for friendship to take last place as a priority. Has life gotten so busy that friendship keeps sliding to the bottom of the list?

Dr. Sue is a board-certified psychiatrist and author of Practical Optimism, and she makes a compelling case that friendship is not simply something that makes life better. Connection matters to our health, too.

In this episode, we talk about loneliness, friendship guilt, why small talk counts, how to reconnect after time has passed, and what actually helps us make friends as adults.

What You’ll Hear

• What loneliness can mean for our overall health (08:27)
• Why small talk is more important than we think (13:16)
• How phones quietly keep conversations from going deeper (21:02)
• The time and effort adult friendship actually takes (24:20)
• Practical ways to make friends later in life (36:53)

This episode is a reminder that connection doesn’t always require a grand gesture. Show up. Ask the question. Remember something someone told you. Make the first move. And maybe give yourself a little grace when life gets in the way.

Subscribe to Things No One Tells You for more conversations about the things we are all navigating but don’t always talk about. And if you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend.

You can watch this interview on YouTube: https://youtu.be/6NkYu-r5RNo

For a full transcript and more, check out our blog post: https://www.lindsaycz.com/show-notes/dr-sue-varma-54

Check out more from Dr. Sue Varma:

Check out Dr. Sue Varma’s website https://www.doctorsuevarma.com/

Follow her on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/doctorsuevarma

Support this podcast:

Follow Things No One Tells You on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thingsnoonetellsyoupod/

Stay connected with Lindsay https://www.lindsaycz.com/ and follow her on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lindsaycz/

Subscribe to my YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@lindsaycz

[00:00:16] Do you think they like you? Do you think it's weird?" And people, when they talk to strangers, both parties benefit. But you don't realize that, standing online, you're at a coffee shop talking to a barista, like, making chit-chat, small talk. The other thing people don't tell you is that small talk isn't small talk.

[00:00:48] Lindsay: Welcome to another episode of Things No One Tells You. Ah, guys, I am ... This actually might be the episode that I'm most feeling like there is really amazing information that I know is going to benefit you. So we're talking today to Dr. Sue Varma. She is a board-certified psychiatrist. But I met Dr. Sue.

[00:01:31] So I am so grateful that this is that platform because friendships are actually important for our health, and that is what Sue was talking about. But I have been really interested in this topic for so long, and a big reason is that oftentimes I feel like I'm failing at friendship. And I say that not to be like, "Oh, woe is me," but to be like, I'm wondering if you guys feel like that as well.

[00:02:26] So Sue is going to share her thoughts on why friendship is important, not just for our happiness but also for our health, literally. Very important information. But she's also gonna talk about very practical lessons and the things that we can do that you need to hear. There is one thing that she shared about the dinner table that I've known, but this is a practice that we are going to institute because it is super important.

[00:03:24] And it's interesting because I've, since then, had some different conversations with friends just about, like, why is this con- this, this topic so fascinating to me? So I'm really excited today to hear what you really think, what you can tell us about maybe the thing no one tells you about friendship and best practices.

[00:04:09] Tell me how this started.

[00:04:33] And to me, psychiatry was the intersection of it all, where it is equal parts science, and it's equal parts art, the art of conversation, the art of connecting, of listening, of empathy. And I feel like these are things I think about a lot in my day-to-day life with my spouse, with my kids, with my friendships.

[00:05:07] I was with a group of women the other day, and one of them was like-- I was asking her how she's been since I last saw her and how her kids are doing, and she interrupted me, and then she turned to the group and said, Sue has an interesting way of making you feel like you're the only person in the room."

[00:05:36] But, there is a part of it where you're, you are curious, but it's always in curiosity, like in service of somebody else. So I think that if you think about friendship, and Lindsay, you had said something to me which stuck with me when I just think that being interested in other people and asking them questions from a genuine point of view, and I think we're so stuck in our own lives, and fixated on our own lives.

[00:06:15] And just be settled enough in ourselves to be able to say, "How are you? Tell me more." That in itself is just the first step to showing up for a friend.

[00:06:39] And so- yeah... what is really interesting to me about that, and I remember when we were all talking there, I was just thinking, "Oh, this is so, I wanna dig deeper," because, when you're starting too, when I think about career or just my path, I had, I hopped trying to make it as a television journalist, as a sports reporter, as you hop from market to market.

[00:07:29] You have to do it to take the next step. But now, having an opportunity to be back in it at a different workplace, I really have realized that it is really so much about the people as well, and the relationships that you're nurturing, and the people that you're around. And Melvin, my husband, and I talk about this all the time, like, and it's what you said about yourself and your friend saying that you make people feel like they're the only person in the room.

[00:08:17] But also, you said that it's like our health is dependent on good friendships, right? I was like, "What?" Totally. Totally. I mean, you brought numbers to the table, and I'm like, "This is wild."

[00:08:38] So, for example, loneliness has the same negative health impact on us as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. So if all of us are like, "Well, I don't wanna be a smoker. I don't wanna get cancer and heart disease and all of that," well, guess what? If you are not making an effort to maintain friendships, you might as well be.

[00:09:16] So really thinking of friendships, I tell my patients, "Write it down. It is a prescription. I want you to put it in your calendar." And I really firmly believe that the quality of your life depends on the quality of your relationships, and that we know that people who spend a time cultivating relationships in midlife, 40s, 50s, 60s, they will live longer and they will have a better quality of life.

[00:10:30] Lindsay: Scientifically, I mean, what have you found about that, about how you can compare that in the same sense to smoking? Why?

[00:10:56] All of these things that society has told us are bad, and we all "Duh, of course I wouldn't do that," or, "Duh, I know that. Even if I am doing it, I know that it's bad for my health." But when we think of underlying disease, it's always inflammation in the body and cortisol, uh, elevation. So loneliness, it's a pres- it's a biological perception of threat that something bad is going to happen to me, and we think about it from a biological evolutionary point of view, if y- there was always like strength in numbers, like you felt like people had your back. And it's just this perception, and I talk about this in my book. In Practical Optimism, people is one of the eight pillars of practical optimism and it, and really optimism to me is a way of living longer, and we know that optimistic people, they have more friends, and if you have more friends, you tend to be more optimistic.

[00:12:06] Like, I think a lot of us get disappointed, and that could be one reason why we give up. You mentioned, Lindsay, being like when you're working, and you have kids, and they're young, and they need you, and you have a lot going on; our friendships tend to go to the back burner, so it's understandable.

[00:12:31] Lindsay: Is that the thing no one tells you about friendship that you would say?

[00:12:47] And I think people don't tell you how much other people actually want to hear from you. There's this interesting st- study they had done, like a strap-hanger study in Chicago, and they looked at people on a subway, and they found that they asked you, like, "Would you talk to a stranger?

[00:13:15] Lindsay: For a certain age group.

[00:13:32] By the way, n- no one tells you that 5,000 and 7,000 steps are as good for your mental health as 10,000 in terms of, like, preventing depression. So you don't need as many steps, but let's say you're diligent about X amount of steps. You know what? I think of s- think of friendship as steps.

[00:14:03] I went to the hair salon to get my hair done for you, Lindsay, today for the podcast. And I was like- You do.

[00:14:08] Dr Sue: Thank you. And I was like, I could have, I could do it myself, but I'm like, you g- I'm going to the salon. I might as well talk to people," and like I'm talking to everybody, and it feels like I'm getting my steps in.

[00:14:45] Lindsay Yeah, that was my next question. Yeah, so friends that you haven't connected with sometimes will make me feel apprehensive and insecure.

[00:15:02] Dr Sue: Yes. So look, I always say, that the, there, there is, there, are studies, so just know that you're not alone, first of all, if you feel weird. But some studies show that the person that you reached out to, even if time has passed, they are happier to hear from you than you realize.

[00:15:35] And a couple of things I would say, like in terms of re-entry points- yeah... you could literally just say, "Hey, it's been a while. I was thinking about you the other day." And literally I just got a DM from someone who said that to me, and I said, "That's so funny. I was thinking about you, too." And in my culture, South Asian culture, there's this idea that if you're bo- two people are thinking about each other at the same time, we have a saying; we say to the other person, "You're gonna have a long life."

[00:16:15] So one thing that I like is number one: just reach out and say, "I was thinking about you." And, another thing that I think about in terms of maintaining friendships, it's so important to make a mental note in your head of if, assuming you wanna keep in touch, 'cause if you don't care, that's a different story.

[00:16:51] So, like maybe they were in the middle of a move at the time. Maybe they were trying to help their kid navigate the college scene. Maybe there was a wedding going on. Think about where their life is, and follow up and just say, "Hey, I was thinking about you. How did that end up going?" You have no idea how many brownie points that gets you, because most people, like, I hate to say this, Lindsay, I'm not trying to, I don't wanna sound like doomsday, but people just have too much going on in their life that they have; they don't even remember.

[00:17:36] And she somehow made a mental note and put it in her Apple calendar, and I was like, "Oh, my God."

[00:17:44] Dr Sue: Yeah. And it's so small, 'cause as an adult, we really don't expect anything other than a tight-knit group of friends or family or people who grew up with us or somehow maybe they saw it on social media; they'll be like, "Oh," and then they start wishing you.

[00:18:13] It really says something. It, and in my mind, it kind of, I joke, I like, it, I think it elevates you, in terms of categories of friendship, because there are categories. I don't know if you have many mental categories or circles of tighter friends.

[00:18:29] I was, I was at work during a football day, and I have a, my co-anchor, a friend, has this level of quarterbacks. And, it w- which has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but he, it's like tiers, and he was going through who his tiers were, and I found that fascinating. But I think it absolutely actually does relate to friendship, and because that is leadership, and in sports, camaraderie can also win championships for real, and that is authentic friendship.

[00:19:21] Not a ton, but whereas- the Rams used the theory of we're gonna keep our bodies on our clock. So I think maybe- I don't know. So that's a whole separate topic.

[00:19:31] Lindsay: Right? So interesting. It really is.

[00:19:39] I think of whenever I had a big test or a big moment, or let's say, uh, preparing for a TV interview, I feel like I get my work done while you're at home, yeah. And then when you're there, just show up and be present. So if that's being in the green room, being open to talking to the other guests that are there, the producers, the anchors, whatever it is.

[00:20:15] So maybe the combination of all of those things.

[00:20:28] Dr Sue: Yes.

[00:20:33] I know I feel good. I actually feel good in my body when I think about being prepped and then having that time. That is, for me, so much easier said than done, and I think just because I have one of these personalities, I want to get better at that.

[00:21:02] I know that when I'm out with my mom's friends, we often have our phones on the table, like the dinner table. Yes. And... Or if I'm with friends that are physicians, and if they happen to be on call, and we just consider it normal, right, to have the phone on the table. But what studies show is the mere presence of a phone on a dinner table almost guarantees that the conversation will not go deep, because both parties are-

[00:21:27] Dr Sue: Subconsciously anticipating an interruption. So there's this feeling of,f oh, my God, either let's hurry up, let's eat, let's get through this. I'm gonna get interrupted. I'm gonna have to go. And I feel like something as simple, right, as if you're able to put your phone just out of sight- wherever that might be- in your lap, in your bag, on the floor, someplace, on a chair, what you can do. Somebody may say, "Well, I'm a parent of young kids." Is there an on-call parent where, you know, sometimes when you put Do Not Disturb on your phone- yeah... you will get the calls of the people who are in your favorite list. So there's a way that if it's an emergency, somebody that's, if it's really important, they can call you. Otherwise, you can say, "Hey, I'm gonna be going to dinner now."

.[00:22:22] First of all, why do you know that I'm having dinner in... But okay, sure. Yes, I'll put it on so it does not disturb me. So just think about it: I'm more intentional and more aware of all of my relationships in life because I think that there's an, uh, this concept of pruning that happens. Okay. And it can happen at different stages and phases.

[00:23:00] And I'm like, "I don't want that." I w- Have you been to an Indian wedding, Lindsay?

[00:23:06] Dr Sue: Yeah, an Indian wedding?

[00:23:13] Dr Sue: Yes.

[00:23:28] Dr Sue: Yes, you would invite extended family and all sorts of relatives from both sides, and often family friends, and then you don't even know them or their kids- right 00:23:37] or whatever. And so, when I was creating that list, it really made me intentional about not only who my closest friends are but who I wanna take into the next phase of my life. And it just made me reflect, and it's hard. I think adult friendships are really hard because of time and distance and disappointment, right?

[00:24:05] Lindsay: Right, and values that change.

[00:24:19] Lindsay: Yeah

[00:24:36] And then, if you want the next level of friendship.

[00:24:40] Dr Sue: Yeah, to become a casual acquaintance/friend. Like-

[00:24:54] Dr Sue: Yeah. But there are things you can do to expedite that.

[00:25:09] Lindsay: Right. And you made me think of four different things while you were talking, so I'm like, "Where am I?"

[00:25:37] And of course- you have individual friendships, but it does feel like when you get together, I just know you because I knew you when you were this tall, and I know your parents, and X, Y, Z." Also, I just... I don't know if other people feel this way, but I get so much anxiety from text chains. And I love them when I can really be a part of them.

[00:26:16] And just, how do you recommend people doing that?

[00:26:33] like the text thread together. Some people are more active. And these are the same people who are, like, the president of the school PTO, right? They're the class presidents of their kids' classrooms. They have... They really are good at community building and maintaining. But it's like it's okay if you're not that person because not everybody wants to or has that strength, and other people may play different roles where someone gets the ball rolling, let's say, on a let's do a girls' get-together.

[00:27:04] Lindsay: Well, yes, we do ... it'll be Christmas- But that, and, I mean, always though there is one, there are people that can't come. Oftentimes that's been me, just 'cause I live away. So it's yes, they ... and but that, and that, I mean, that's another not that we need to get too far into my weeds, but it's like that is another way that I feel okay, that can be stressful.

[00:27:43] But you know what? As I'm saying this out loud, I do the same thing with friends around here. It's like I feel where I am now, like in, in my community, I really val- I love the friends that I've made. But yeah, it's easy to feel guilt,

[00:28:07] Or, "I'm covering a news story."Just writing- yeah ... to the group chat and say, "I am going to be available." And here's the thing, it's like you may only have literally 45 minutes before going to the airport, and you're like, "I will be at this coffee shop," or, "I'm getting ready for an interview, but I have 30 minutes here.

[00:28:47] If it's ... And, who do I know here? So I actually have a friend whose idea I loved. She's a world traveler, does a lot of talking, huge on social media, and she says, "I made a, I've made a list of which friends live in which city," on an Excel spreadsheet. So she makes a point to reach out.

[00:29:05] Yeah. That's a,

[00:29:21] There is a fear. And when you say it out loud, you're like, "Oh, well, that's not gonna happen." And I'm glad you said it out loud, because if you're, let's say you're in therapy with a therapist, and, I can see myself in that situation to be like, "I feel bad I'm missing all, out of all my friends," whatever.

[00:29:55] I am just catching up now," and that might be delayed. And if you, and if this is a group you're genuinely invested in, you may go back and look at all the messages or be like, as the kids say, "What's the TLDR?" and then ask them. I think even, s- people just want to be seen. So if you get the point, which is, somebody's- yes

[00:30:33] Lindsay: It really, so you make me think about, years ago Oprah said, I cannot remember where I saw this, but she had this quote where she said on television, "People just wanna be seen, and they wanna know that what they have to say matters."

[00:31:03] That day on the Today Show, you said that people want to show, right, they want to be vulnerable. Yes. Maybe you remind me what you were, what it was.

[00:31:22] I think that as women we have these ideas in our mind that everyone else has their life together except me. We will always find someone who'll be like, "Well, they seem to," whether it's on social media or wherever it is, and you are this and you have accomplished this; therefore, your life is perfect.

[00:31:53] Lindsay: Well, I made up a name, but yes.

[00:31:55] Lindsay: My…

[00:32:03] Lindsay: Oh, that's funny. I feel,

[00:32:32] Or there was a mom at my kid's school who said, "Just you..." S- she, I had her family over for dinner. She went on a trip and ended up injuring herself. I texted her, "How are you doing? How is your leg?" She was like, "I'm better now, and I'm so excited. I'm gonna go to this workout class." And I was like, "Oh, that's awesome.

[00:33:01] Yeah. "Why don't you come?" And so it's just such a natural evolution where this started being somebody just at my kid's school, right? And then we had dinners at each other's houses, and then it led to workout c- commonality. Now we work out together, and then it led to me meeting her new group of friends.

[00:33:36] And so going to a workout class or going to yoga class, I get my mindfulness, I get my mastery, I get my movement. And if I get to talk to her afterwards and we share something, it's meaningful engagement. So, you can get to check... And these four M's are sort of life's, I think of them as, prevention of mental health problems, anxiety, depression.

[00:34:07] Lindsay: Wow. Yeah.

[00:34:10] I'm like, "That's wonderful." Elton John, Rolling Stones. I'm like, "Great, I'll be watching," one of those huge benefit concerts.

[00:34:15] Dr Sue: And they're like, "No, we want you in it." And I was like, "I don't sing, and I don't dance. And nor do you wanna see that. So, what do you want me to do?" And they're like, "No, we want you to be, like, the mental health voice."

[00:34:43] And I was like, "59 seconds, what can I share?" And they're like, "Kerry Washington is gonna introduce you, and then you have this tight 59 seconds, and then we're going to the next act," or whatever. So I thought hard: what are four things that people should be doing every single day to maintain their mental health?

[00:35:09] Lindsay: Yes ...

[00:35:18] He's a retired psychiatrist, and he's taken us on all these amazing, glorious trips where we have been seeing his friends that he trained with, that he's kept in touch with through a WhatsApp group. Wow. So meaningful engagement is, for me, one of the four basic things, four basic habits that you should have.

[00:35:37] Lindsay: The way that you describe him, by the way, in your book, in Practical Optimism, I took note of that and thought that, okay, this is a really interesting perspective on how he does that, his best practices. Yeah. I thought that was really fascinating.

[00:36:06] Why do you have to talk to people everywhere you go?" I'm like, "I can't help it."

[00:36:27] And so they are moving, if not every two years, then every several years. And so I watch her make friendships, and I sort of marvel at this. But that brought up the conversation of, okay, so if you are in a place, you're new, what have you, what do you recommend in terms of trying to make new friendships there?

[00:36:53] Dr Sue: So I think, there, when we started having... I'm thinking, if you look at architecture post-World War II, there were homes and, or even Victorian homes- yeah[00:37:04] throughout the ages, homes had been built with these porches, and a front porch. And to me, it was like that is where people would sit, and they would drink their lemonade, and they would watch the people go by. They would make conversation. You would get invited to the porch, and we don't have that as much these days, right?

[00:37:42] That might happen, but chances are it might not happen. So if you were to say to yourself, "What would it cost me to make the first move?" And the likelihood- think of it as a numbers game. You're not going to connect. You're not going to match with everyone, and you don't need to, so that's really important.

[00:38:10] Lindsay: So don't take it personally, basically.

[00:38:26] Make conversation with the person sitting next to you. Be like, "Hey, I was just curious, do you know if there are good lunch places near this cafe, or do you... Are there other coffee shops that you like?" Small talk with random people. It's so fun. That's what you started with.

[00:38:41] Dr Sue: It's so foreign to people, but it's like that, it

[00:38:59] Is there a running club? Is there yoga? Is there Pilates? Small group training, going to the same thing and asking the same questions. "I'm new here. Is there a fitness class that you like? Is there a yoga class?" Book clubs. There's an app called Nextdoor where people are like, "I'm looking for a tennis partner or pickleball," or "Who can I play with?"

[00:39:23] Lindsay: Oh, yes. Sometimes

[00:39:26] Lindsay: No ...

[00:39:27] Lindsay: I need to learn. I mean, I have probably three different friends that I've heard teach it, and so it's just- yeah... a matter of figuring out, right?

[00:39:36] Dr Sue: Tell Amy Mahjong and pickleball are here; it's at.

[00:39:49] Dr Sue: Yes. And joining, like for some people, it is easier to join a club or a group that's already f- freestanding.

[00:40:14] So a lot of times somebody will ask a question. Let's say there's a book signing, and this ... Literally fill it in. Fill in the blank with anything it could be, right? It could be a wine tasting. It could be a cooking class. People will ask questions. And just say, you can say, "Oh, my God, I loved your question.

[00:40:48] I was talking to a woman. I had a get-together, and there were a bunch of women that did not know each other, and one was talking about Mahjong, and she's like, "Oh, my God, I know a great teacher, and I already have three friends going, and I know that they have space for more.

[00:41:05] Lindsay: Totally. Well, so someone was asking, what if you're shy? What if- yeah. you're just not the person that,t in any shape or form, rm wants to be like, "Hey,"what then?

[00:41:25] My parents were very active in the community. My dad's a psychiatrist, and he had started a lot of different psychiatric organizations. My mom was in education. She has a PhD, and they would speak at conferences, and they would drag me all over the country, and I was always spending my weekends, like, sitting with a group of the kids of the other speakers- yeah.

[00:41:56] I got this book. It was so funny. There was a mall that, like, where I would go with my girlfriends and I ... That's how the whole idea of me wanting to write a self-help book came, because I was looking at these shelves and I was like, there was a book called Conquering Shyness. And Lindsay, I have no idea what the hell was in the book, but I was like, "I am going to conquer my shyness today."

[00:42:28] And that book just made me realize that you can adopt a very different mindset, and I was like, one day I was like, "I want to give back." This book or ... and the idea of an author passing ideas that can change your life, I want to be that for somebody else, to get them out of their shell, to overcome whatever anxiety or fear that they have.

[00:43:00] Dr Sue: Yeah. Of, of ... it's like in the darkest of times, on 9/11, I was a medical student working at a New York City hospital, and I was in a patient's room, and I saw the first plane crash into the tower, and I was

[00:43:34] But nobody came, unfortunately.

[00:43:50] Dr Sue: Yeah. So when I was working with 9/11 survivors, I was struck by a group of patients who never met criteria for anxiety, depression, post-traumatic stress disorder.

[00:44:21] They went through the... Two people can go through the same horrific tragedy, and yet one person comes out not only, I don't wanna say unscathed because they- they all went through loss and grief, but somehow they came out on the other end a little bit differently. To the point where some of these patients were serving as community activists and leaders and helping get resources and bringing some of these other patients who were more debilitated to their doctor's appointments.

[00:45:08] Tell me a little bit about you. How are you able to do this?" And I remember this one patient who spoke perfect English, but I requested, whenever I saw her, "Please practice Spanish with me," and her name was Theresa.

[00:45:20] Dr Sue: And she said to me, I said, "Qual is su, secreto?

[00:45:51] I was like, "Who are these people?" Then I realized that they have this natural-born optimism, but what I learned later on is that optimism is something you're born with or not, and some people said, "Well, if I'm not born with it, what can I do?" And I learned through these survivors that optimism can be practiced, and I was like...

[00:46:14] Lindsay: Yes. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. A couple of questions for you from people who have weighed in and really would love your advice on friendship. Jenny wrote in and said, "How do you choose to be childless friends?"

[00:46:32] Dr Sue: Great. And so I'm assuming Jenny might be choosing

[00:46:36] Dr Sue: Childless.

[00:46:38] Dr Sue: Yeah, so, I saw this article the other day; I think it was Vox Media, and it said we all need to be partying more often. And I was just thinking, they were talking about just this, this collective effer- effervescence, like this idea that came about where you're celebrating.

[00:47:15] There's a shared sense of friendship and com- camaraderie before having kids, and I think that gets lost for a lot of parents when you're in this ... I talk about it, and it's the first pillar of purpose, not just purpose like doing good in the world, but also having some pleasure, right? I say, it's like your pleasure basket and your drudgery drawer.

[00:47:52] Are we listening to music? Are we going to a salsa dance class?" She brings out-.

[00:47:56] Dr Sue: Yeah, she brings out that fun, childlike spirit in me.

[00:48:12] Dr Sue: Yes. Yes, absolutely. And I feel like my dad is living proof. Like- oh... he has made hundreds of new friends over the last three decades, like everywhere we go. And, I just, I'm like, I'm ... People are taken by him because he's showing up expecting nothing in return, and I think that he has activity partners, like people he will go see a play with, people he will go to the library for a book talk with.

[00:48:55] And they don't have to be your soulmates, friendship-wise.

[00:49:17] Anything that you think is interesting for us to know, or the thing that no one tells you about that and what that means?

[00:49:38] And I often see that they outsource their companionship, if you will. itdon't know if outsource is the correct word, but they rely upon their partner for it. And if they don't have a partner, if they're not dating somebody, or if they're widowed or they're divorced, they're extremely lonely, and they're immediately looking to fill the gap with another partner.

[00:50:30] There's a lot of strange and unnecessary homophobia. "They're gonna think I'm this," or, "They're gonna think... They're gonna misread my intentions." And so I think sometimes for guys, group hats can be non-threatening. Having stuff around sports or activities can be non-threatening. But honestly, if you're able to get over what you think society is telling you, just m- just do it.

[00:51:07] And I'm like, "This is for your bro date?" Like, sending them pictures of new coffee shops. But I think it's so sweet that somebody has their act together enough to initiate friendship, because I don't see that a lot in guys.

[00:51:25] Yes. And if there's something that you and your spouse or a partner want to chat about, movement is a good idea. Yes. I have a question. Why... Tell me the story behind this art. I love it. Obviously, there's a purpose.

[00:51:45] And this is where the practical part comes in. It's not just-

[00:51:50] Dr Sue: I'm a big fan of going not just in my practice from dysfunctional to functional, but functional to optimal. And so I was like- Yeah ... the practical part is you have a lemon, you wanna drink it. I want you to get the nutrients out of it.

[00:52:21] Yeah. So find joy. The practicality is the straw. Lemons are a hardship in life. And then the red raspberry umbrella is the festivity. So turn your hardships into lessons to be learned. And then at some point, don't forget to make time for your joy.

[00:52:46] Dr Sue: Friendships. My girlfriends, I would say.

[00:52:52] Dr Sue: Yeah, from different parts of life. But I feel like at the core, two or three people are ... I would say, when I think of friendships, there's activity partners, and then there's one or two soulmates that you feel like just being in their presence, they accept you for who you are, don't expect anything from you, and I think that's just one of the most treasured things.

[00:53:32] I think we didn't get to talk about this, but there was a great conversation that I really enjoyed between Oprah and Gayle King, where they're talking about jealousy, and that it's really hard to have friendships, right? Like, when there is a hint of that. And I think that a lot of women, as they continue to succeed in life and good things are happening, or through social media, unfortunately, others.

[00:54:07] Why am I not there?" But I think that there's disappointment often, but if you can see the best, and that's like a line that I learned from my dad, it's being able to see the best in people. So w- it's fun- it's funny, sometimes we will both t- my dad and I will both be talking to somebody that we know is not, maybe not the nicest or

[00:54:43] And you can choose to turn things on and off as needed.

[00:54:58] Dr Sue: Yes ...

[00:55:00] That's great advice, but it's like really, you have to just, you have to just shut that off and realize- yes... that everyone's life and story is unique and their own and ... Right?

[00:55:13] Lindsay: Sue Varma, Dr. Sue Varma, it's so great talking to you. Thank you so much for your time, and thank you ... I can't wait to talk to you again.

[00:55:22] Lindsay: And good luck with it. Absolutely. I know this book; it has been helping people for a bit, but good luck with it moving on down the road. There is so much great wisdom in there, so I can't wait for people- thank you... to check it out.

[00:55:38] Lindsay: I also wanna share that it was just the tip of the iceberg with Sue, because since my first time meeting her and talking about friendship, I have seen her in conversations with people about decision-making, all the things. She's working on a new project down the road that is a completely different departure, but her expert advice and the work that she does as a psychiatrist just so informs all these things that she just shared with us.

[00:56:25] And, as always, we appreciate you for being here. Thank you for being a part of this community, and for all of us here at TNOTY, we will see you next time.