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Integrating Product-Led and Sales-Led Strategies at Zapier - Lindsay Rothlisberger
Episode 39 • 2nd July 2024 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
00:00:00 00:49:25

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Is the future of SaaS growth product-led or sales-led? What if it's both? Zapier uses PLG to create an ecosystem of users and product signals which then drives their sales-led outreach.

Coordinating these motions in parallel takes technical sophistication, great communication, and tight process. Fortunately, they have a unified RevOps team that keeps everyone on the same page.

This week we chat with Lindsay Rothlisberger, Director of RevOps at Zapier, about how her team helps the magic happen.

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About Today's Guest

Lindsay Rothlisberger is a dedicated Revenue Operations Leader with a background enriched in marketing. She thrives on transforming ideas into strategies that improve the customer experience and business metrics. She currently serves as Director of Revenue Operations at Zapier, and has previously held marketing positions at UNiDAYS, Oracle, and Blackboard.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsay-rothlisberger/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [00:59] - The RevOps scope at Zapier
  • [02:52] - Blending PLG and Sales-Led Funnels
  • [15:11] - How RevOps helps coordinate different GTM motions
  • [22:19] - Org and reporting structure
  • [28:49] - Planning and prioritization
  • [34:05] - Tech stack and governance
  • [41:07] - Tracking signals and CRM architecture

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Transcripts

Justin Norris:

Welcome to RevOps FM.

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:

Today, we chat with Lindsay Rothlisberger,

Director of Revenue Operations at Zapier,

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:

where she leads a unified team supporting

sales, marketing, and customer success.

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:

And Lindsay's experience is super

interesting to me because she's

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evolved into a RevOps role from

the marketing side of the house.

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Whereas the norm that I see is still

really for RevOps leaders to come

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from more of a sales ops background.

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So.

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As someone with a marketing

background myself, I'm really

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interested to drill into that.

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And she's also working in a super fast

paced, high volume PLG environment.

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And that brings a ton of interesting

challenges and opportunities for

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things like leveraging automation.

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So we just have a lot of cool

things to dig into today.

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Lindsay, welcome to the show.

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: Awesome.

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Thanks for having me.

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I'm really excited to be

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here.

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Justin Norris: why don't we just

start out with, how you think about.

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The scope and the mandate of your team.

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And this is something I think

about a lot as an operator.

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Like, how do you know when

your team is doing a good job?

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How do you know what success looks like?

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What's the sort of North star that

you try to keep focused on day to day?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yeah.

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So maybe I'll start with the scope

of my RevOps team here at Zapier.

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We, are responsible on the marketing

side for personalization, segmentation,

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and marketing tooling, as well as

things like campaign operations, to

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really make sure our customers are

having the best experience possible,

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or leveraging all of our data.

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in the right ways.

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and then we are also responsible for go

to market efficiency and productivity.

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So like, are we as

profitable as we can be?

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And are we like making the best use

of resources across go to market?

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and then our core like North star

metrics are, around qualified

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opportunities in particular.

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So what can we do from an

operations perspective?

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Whether it be better qualification,

better analytics, Really optimizing

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the funnel to increase the number

of qualified ops that we're driving.

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And then on the other side of

the house as well, it's around

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revenue and sales efficiency.

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So how can we actually make sales

as efficient as possible so that

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we're, opening up sales capacity.

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To, be able to handle and sell more deals.

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and so within that realm, we're

looking at things like automation

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and AI, strategic insights.

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So we have a function focused

on that, tech and tooling.

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So like the underlying infrastructure

to do all of that, and then like.

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Lead and deal management and process, to

make all of that flywheel run day to day.

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so that's kind of like a general

overview of our team and the metrics

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in particular that we're focused

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on And measured

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by.

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Justin Norris: And you mentioned

opportunities, which usually, you know,

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means like a sales led motion, but

you also have, and maybe I don't know

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what , your percentage is, but like

I'm as after customer where I work,

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but we just pay with a credit card.

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We've never talked to a

salesperson that I know of.

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Is that also within your purview or

do you view that as like a completely

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separate side of the business?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger:

it's super interesting.

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So when I joined Zapier four years ago,

we did not have a sales team and I was the

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first marketing ops person to join Zapier.

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So it was really, really interesting

because, I was more focused on that,

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like customer experience and campaign

operations and like, how do we,

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communicate with our customers in

a way that like really makes sense

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for what they need and who they are.

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and then we really only started

transitioning into a, more of the

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sales led motions about two years ago.

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So, There's a whole slew of

learnings from that experience.

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But really then there are two challenges.

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Like you're building a new sales

funnel, figuring out how to

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leverage your vast user base.

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And like, who of those people are the

right sales opportunities and figuring

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out how that all fits together in terms

of process and operations, et cetera.

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And that.

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makeup or scope is the reason

why a centralized rev ops team

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works so well for us at Zapier.

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Just because there's so much movement,

like customers on a subscription

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model can, have a certain planting

type and upgrade on their own.

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And at what point are they

ready to talk to sales?

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And like, we don't want

to cross wires there.

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So the centralized rev ops

function helps us like stay really

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aligned and making sure that our.

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Processes in our customer

journey are like.

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acting in a complimentary fashion.

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it's a really good

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question.

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Justin Norris: So let's, dive

deeper into the PLG side just cause

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it's such an interesting topic.

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I'm used to thinking of like a funnel

from a sales led point of view, you

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have a lead and then they're an MQL

but it's all driving towards sales

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and then sales owns a piece of it.

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Now you've got this thing where

people can choose their own adventure

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and take all sorts of weird and

wonderful paths to purchase.

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How do you think about that

customer journey, from a top

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level, like in the big picture?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yeah.

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So it's always a work in progress.

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I think with PLG, there are

two main motions that we ran.

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We have sort of our like requested

demo inbound flow on our website.

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So, we actually organically we

have good brand recognition.

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We have a pretty high volume of

folks who come through that funnel

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and raise their hand to talk to us.

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And I think that's a testament to like the

marketing and the initiatives that we do

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among our user base on an ongoing basis.

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But then when it comes to like

our existing user base and we have

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so many different, use cases that

Zapier serves, we have a really large

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breadth of personas that we serve.

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So figuring out how to like.

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Get those folks to the right place

in terms of whether they should be

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talking to sales or whether they

should be fully self sufficient

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has been, a lot of experimentation.

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So we have hypotheses around like,

what types of product signals warrants

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like, higher sales effort or might be a

signal that this is our ideal customer

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for expansion with our sales team.

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So we sort of like canvas our, our user

base and like, for more of those one

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to one high touch efforts via like an

experimentation framework of like, is this

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our ICP for our higher price point plans?

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is this a customer who's sort of bought

in to our product and is using it in a

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ways that warrant, more enterprise level,

product features like admin and security.

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and so we really.

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Don't want to talk to everyone in our use.

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Like not everyone in our user base is the

right fit for a high touch sales motion.

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so it's been a lot of experimentation

to figure out not only like who

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are the right people who are like.

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Most likely to expand their usage

of Zapier across their organization.

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So who are those people?

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And then, what type of touch or

outreach is going to work best for them?

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is it a very high touch one to one sales?

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Is it an automated sales outreach where

rev ops and marketing sort of like.

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personalizes that one to one

outreach because we're reaching

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a pretty vast user base.

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What is their motivation to upgrade

to one of our higher tier plans?

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we've had to learn a lot of that through

trial and error and it's very ongoing.

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so we're always iterating

and improving on, that.

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Justin Norris: And do you

think about, the product as the

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ideal entryway for everyone?

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In other sense, in other words, everyone

should come in, they'll create an

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account, and then we have like a lead

pool that we can observe and see like

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this fish looks like it's going to be a

big fish so we can, try to scoop it out.

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Or are there some people where you really

do just want to drive them directly to the

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request a demo flow right from the outset?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: We do both.

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we're not doing like pure outbound,

traditional like b2b demand gen per

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se, where we're like acquiring lists

of potential customers and like doing

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outreach, we really have to balance like

our price point with the level of effort.

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So that's another, pretty large role

that Rev Ops has played is like, what

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should be a very, like, low touch.

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high velocity sales motion, where

we're closing deals in one or two

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days, because the price point is

just not where it needs to be to do

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that level of hands on, nurturing.

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so we do a little bit of More

so trying to drive inbound.

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So we have our blog, we have, advertising

programs and, and we really try and use

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those to bring folks to us in more of

like an inbound fashion, but then our user

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base is really, Really, really interesting

because we've got a lot of users who come

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in who maybe are using Zapier for one or

two use cases and don't know like all of

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the different opportunities by which and

so for them marketing becomes like how can

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we get them to find their next use case

and when we have enough like penetration

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or usage within an organization.

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Then it, warrants more of like a,

almost like an outbounding, our

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user base, if that makes sense.

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So yes, I would say in terms of

like what you would think of a more

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traditional, like B2B sales motion

with PLG, it's really using our

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product and marketing levers combined.

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To like drive that adoption.

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and then when the customer is ready,

we engage with them with more of

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a one to one human touch effort.

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Justin Norris: Just thinking about it

feels like a great way to run a business.

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is it as rosy as it sounds like if

you had to start a business today,

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would you, do you like this model?

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obviously every motion has its benefits,

but, is it all that it seems like it's

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cracked up to be to do business this way,

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: I do think so.

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come from a more

enterprise B2B background.

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I've been at large organizations And

I do think having a product where

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people can come in and try it and get

up and running it rather quickly and

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solve a pain point that they have,

like it's so much more powerful, I

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think, than what you can do with like

marketing webinars and email nurtures.

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I think the tricky part there are

definitely some gotchas, like as you start

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to expand, market and bring on sales and,

start experimenting with those efforts.

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You have to figure out how

you're like single user project.

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drives intercompany adoption.

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So like where you have multiple

users and you have more people

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engaged with the project.

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it's a really, really interesting

challenge because you almost have to

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look at how can your product drive

more virality within an org to really

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warrant more extensive use of it.

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at least for us, I think for similar

PLG companies who can solve very

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like one to one needs as, as well

as like larger business needs.

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you have to figure that out.

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As you go.

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Otherwise, the sales motion falls flat.

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Justin Norris: maybe to

make it more concrete.

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If we could walk through like

a semi hypothetical example,

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like hypothetical, but grounded

perhaps in real world experience.

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you have a company even of a few thousand

people or even less, you might have

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multiple like people with different

accounts within that same company.

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And so what signals do you look through?

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And then What does the seller do to

like, try to bring that together and

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create a sales led project out of that?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yeah,

that's actually a great question.

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and I can walk you through exactly

what that looks like for us.

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So, at Zapier, if we have, if we see that

we have multiple accounts within the same

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organization, and when you think of this

on the RevOps side, there was a lot of

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work that we had to do in RevOps to get

our data in a place to be able to do this.

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So like think custom

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objects in the CRM to like sort

of group accounts by company.

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It's giving me chills just thinking

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Yeah, it took a long time to get

where we are today, but at this point

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a sales rep can look in HubSpot.

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We use HubSpot as our CRM Can

see multiple accounts across a

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single domain or a single company.

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And at that point they will be

able to see okay, what context

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do I have at this account?

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Is it someone with enough buying authority

or who may be interested in like having

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a conversation about how we might

consolidate that account into a larger.

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And then also bring more people in

the organization onto the account.

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So then the sales motion becomes okay.

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I've identified these companies

where we have several users.

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, do we have like maybe a

director or an it person?

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In the product.

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And oftentimes that's not the case.

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And then you think of

like multi threading.

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And so your sales motion becomes very

much like, okay, how do I then find

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the it person or the director and

bridge that, So that's one example.

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We also use product signals in other

ways where, for example, if, Rev

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Ops is one of our like key personas.

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If we have someone in Rev Ops, who's.

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Using Zapier for a pretty like

critical CRM integration, but they're

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not really maybe getting the value

out of Zapier that they could be.

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we might engage them one to one and

offer, input into like other automation

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opportunities and, expand the account.

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Yes,

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we've

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Justin Norris: have like a framework

that you give your sellers?

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Like sometimes.

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either when I've been on the rev up side

or I've had some past experiences, a

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pre sale solution consultant, you kind

of know, like, this is what my path

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looks like, like first I engage with

persona one and then I got to get persona

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two on board and then persona three.

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And maybe there's a few different

routes, but you sort of have this

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knowledge of one, two, three.

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Is there something like that?

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Or is every account like a unique

snowflake that you need to figure out?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: Exact framework and

trying to map it out in a way that is like

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clear and repeatable for our sales team.

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So what's cool is, I have a

sales enablement person sitting

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within the rev ops team.

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So, our sales enablement person is able to

bridge, not only the process and how to.

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Gaps associated with that, but also

the strategy, around stakeholder

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engagement and engaging the right.

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Users within an account

around what they care about.

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So, yeah, we sort of have a very

like basic framework for like, this

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is what the IT person cares about.

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And you go to them if this is The

playbook, or, this is what the end

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user, what we call, like, the automator

really cares about, the person

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building in Zapier and here's how you

sort of elevate them to engage the

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director or lead of their department.

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So, I would say this is.

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Still very much a work in progress.

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So our framework isn't completely solid.

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but we're starting to make progress

on how that looks like to really

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penetrate within an account.

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Justin Norris: It's a

fascinating challenge a way.

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especially because.

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you could have a sales led part of the

process, maybe with some automation

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involved, and then maybe like a

marketing led part of the process.

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Is your team having total visibility over

all that to like, keep them coordinated?

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Or how do you think about that problem?

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: that is

what has become so interesting.

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I think in this world is like the lines

become very blurred between marketing

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and sales because of like our user

base and because it's quite large.

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Sales cannot possibly, engage

everyone who meets our, ideal customer

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profile for a enterprise level plan.

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So marketing really helps to,

like, drive those, meetings or

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opportunities for the sales team.

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but I think RevOps plays this really

interesting role where We can see it all.

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Right.

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So, sales leads their own motions

as well, and they have ideas for how

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they're going to engage customers.

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And marketing has experiments

that they're running.

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And so without unified rev ops, I,

I don't know how this would work

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because, our marketing ops folks, or

we have, I can go back to our team

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structure a little bit, but we have,

three folks dedicated specifically to

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sort of like the umbrella of marketing

ops, and like lead management.

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And they basically own the

process up until, a lead

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becomes a qualified opportunity.

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So they book a meeting and then they

are deemed, qualified as a deal.

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and then our sales ops folks, we have.

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Two people dedicated to like the sales

process and like deal management.

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And those two groups are just like this,

it's actually more crucial for them

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to be aligned in my opinion, then like

for us to be aligned to marketing just

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because, of how quickly that transition

can happen and also like how many

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different motions and experiments were

running, there's just too much risk.

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to the customer for RevOps

not to play a pretty like deep

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role in overseeing all of it.

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Justin Norris: To make that a little

bit more real, what is an example

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or like a mechanism through which.

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, like a day to day basis does RebOps

actually protect the customer from those

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sorts of like inconsistent or weird

experiences that could easily happen.

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: unfortunately it's

probably more manual than I would prefer

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it to be, but I think that's because

we're just moving really quickly and

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trying a lot of new motions and things.

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so we have actually like a, a.

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a small working group, which includes like

a sales person, a sales manager, a sales

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ops person, a marketing ops person and

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a marketing person.

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And they form this little tiger

team that, when it comes to.

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Finding opportunities among our

user base there, they've got like

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a campaign plan and schedule.

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And so they try to create a lot of

transparency and like collaboration,

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but revolves plays a pretty large

role in helping to facilitate that.

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and helping to stay somewhat neutral in

terms of What's working and what's not

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so, if we launch a campaign to our user

base, for example, and we drive a ton

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of meetings, but deals are stalling and

they're just not closing as like quickly

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as we would like them to, we have this.

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Little working group that

can say let's diagnose this.

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Why is it because of who we

targeted in the campaign or is it

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because, maybe the message sent.

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a message that wasn't really helpful

when it didn't really translate well

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into the sales motion and what we were

actually, trying to sell the customer.

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So, right now we're sort of

doing it in a more manual, like

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smaller working group style.

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Style way.

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but I've noticed like when Rev Ops

is not involved, you see a lot more

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friction there, like among sales and

marketing of like, Oh, well, we need

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better sales enablement because the deals

aren't closing or, and then marketing.

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So, they sort of tend to

like talk past each other.

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and I just find that Rev Ops can play

like such a strong role in not only

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unifying go to market, but also like,

Offering a perspective that like, take

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it, takes into account the like challenges

across both marketing and sales.

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Justin Norris: Kind of

couples therapist almost.

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Lindsay Rothlisberger: Totally.

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It can be stressful, but it is rewarding.

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I've just found that like communication.

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Is literally the most important skill

that I've needed to have, a RevOps

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leader, at least, it's really RevOps as

a function can be really, really powerful

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at aligning, go to market and driving

just an amazing customer experience,

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it takes a lot of strong communication

and like navigating conflict and all of

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those things, it's definitely something

I've learned in the last couple of years.

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Justin Norris: That is so true.

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Hmm.

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:

and people think of it in many

ways as like a technical function

346

:

or like a, process function, but,

the ability to get people on board

347

:

and call out those problems and be

like Switzerland, like you mentioned,

348

:

be neutral and be seen as like this

trusted person that can kind of

349

:

arbitrate these conflicting demands.

350

:

Do you find having a unified structure

helps with that because you're not,

351

:

embedded in any one of the functions,

you can be that, neutral force.

352

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: absolutely.

353

:

I think that was a game changer for us.

354

:

So we only moved to a unified rev ops

function two years ago when our sales

355

:

motion really started to pick up.

356

:

I reported directly into

the CMO prior to that.

357

:

So I was in the marketing ops function.

358

:

so I think it has been really.

359

:

instrumental, in

360

:

growing our go to market and maturing

our go to market really, just having

361

:

the autonomy, I think, to really focus

on like this intersection between

362

:

customer experience and profitability.

363

:

There's no one focused on that

otherwise, teams sort of have.

364

:

Specific goals that they're trying

to meet that don't take into the

365

:

account, like drawbacks, like, Oh,

well, , this is a great motion, but

366

:

our, it's taking our sales team a

hundred days to close these deals.

367

:

And it, that's just not

going to work for us.

368

:

It's not something that we can scale.

369

:

The role RevOps plays for

us is like, how do we find

370

:

repeatability that we can scale?

371

:

And having someone overseeing that

I think has really been successful

372

:

and it's elevated us as a function.

373

:

Like we get a seat at the table because

we bring that perspective, in a way

374

:

that I didn't necessarily get in other

marketing ops roles, at least in my

375

:

experience.

376

:

Justin Norris: Who do you report into now

377

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: So I reported

into the CRO for the length of our

378

:

rev ops time, since we existed in

the org, but our CRO just left.

379

:

So for now I'm reporting

into our VP of sales.

380

:

And normally at first, I

was concerned about that.

381

:

Our VP of sales is very, very

understanding of the importance

382

:

of the rev ops function.

383

:

And so through this transition, and this

was just like in the last couple of weeks,

384

:

it's actually been interesting cause

I've been more intentional then about.

385

:

Marketing and being more involved there.

386

:

So I'm also like a part of

the marketing leadership team.

387

:

So while I report into sales now,

I am embedded within the marketing

388

:

leadership function to help bridge that.

389

:

And I think that can work long term.

390

:

I'm not sure if that will be

what it is for us long term.

391

:

but I would say reporting to the

CRO did work very well and was

392

:

probably

393

:

ideal.

394

:

Justin Norris: was your CRO overseeing

all the go to market functions

395

:

or was he just a sales leader?

396

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yes,

he oversaw marketing, sales

397

:

and support and partnerships.

398

:

So a pretty big, scope.

399

:

Justin Norris: we've touched a

little bit on the structure of your

400

:

team, but just digging into it.

401

:

you Wrote a great blog post, which

I'll link in the show notes about

402

:

your transition to rev ops and you

sketched out and work structure there.

403

:

I don't know if it's evolved

since then, but maybe just walk us

404

:

through the branches of the tree.

405

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger:

Yeah, so it's interesting.

406

:

It has evolved a little bit organically.

407

:

but I'll explain that

a bit more in a second.

408

:

I think what we really wanted to do is we

wanted to have a level of specialization.

409

:

Where, someone could really be

deeply embedded with marketing

410

:

sales and customer success.

411

:

We didn't want to lose that,

like that deep connection with

412

:

what those teams strategies are.

413

:

let me back up.

414

:

We have an operations function

and those are like the day to

415

:

day automators, process builders,

campaign ops, deal lead management.

416

:

but as you've heard at Zapier,

we are pretty experimental, in

417

:

finding out like what motions to

scale from a sales perspective.

418

:

So they're very like agile, I

would say like, lead assignments

419

:

change, prioritization of

leads change quite often.

420

:

So, our operations

function is sort of like.

421

:

Core builders.

422

:

They're the ones who are in the CRM day

to day building workflows automating.

423

:

and then we have the planning

and analytics function.

424

:

And so this is the

smallest part of our group.

425

:

And this is another interesting, nuance

in being at, in a PLG, company where

426

:

we have a really large data org and

we have a really large finance org.

427

:

So we've had to carve out like where

RevOps plays within that, org structure.

428

:

So we actually only have One person

dedicated to analytics across the funnel.

429

:

and they're sort of responsible

for like obsessing over the funnel,

430

:

like where are the breaking points,

where are leads dropping off?

431

:

and again, that's across everything.

432

:

And then we have a

sales enablement person.

433

:

and then we have.

434

:

Somebody who oversees our tech stack,

and this is actually just one person

435

:

probably because she's absolutely amazing.

436

:

but she makes sure that, the data

that we need is sinking in and

437

:

out of our, tools and our systems.

438

:

And our systems are integrated

in a way that facilitates this.

439

:

Great customer experience and motions

that we've been talking about today.

440

:

but within the operations

function, that's our largest group.

441

:

And those are the automators.

442

:

we have folks, we have three folks

dedicated to marketing ops, two

443

:

dedicated to sales ops, and one

dedicated to CS ops, and those 5 are

444

:

very, in sync and have, just a lot of

overlap, coordination and crossover.

445

:

Justin Norris: of the things that occurs

to me is, there's this expression, that

446

:

a friend of mine uses that I really like.

447

:

he talks about, Run the business

versus change the business, whereas

448

:

with like run the business, you're

really executing existing process

449

:

or making adjustments, but it's

primarily about keeping the business

450

:

running forward in its current state.

451

:

Then you have other folks that are

focused on what can we improve?

452

:

Let's figure that out.

453

:

Let's initiate new projects.

454

:

Does that sort of split out that

paradigm neatly between the operations

455

:

team and let's say the person that's

in planning and analytics, or.

456

:

Are, is the operations team divided

between, let's say like day to

457

:

day recurring stuff and then

strategic projects that might change

458

:

the state of business as usual.

459

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: I love

that way of looking at it.

460

:

our operations team is, um.

461

:

A mix of both, so they're doing the day to

day running the business, but then they're

462

:

also working on larger strategic projects.

463

:

I will say that if we did all of

the projects that our stakeholders

464

:

requested of us, we would never.

465

:

Work on those larger strategic projects.

466

:

So we say no a lot.

467

:

We forced trade offs a lot.

468

:

and, so yes, they're running the business.

469

:

And when I say running the

business, it's more of like.

470

:

deal hygiene and, and making sure

that campaigns are being launched and,

471

:

making tweaks to lead management when

we see a bug come through, et cetera.

472

:

they're doing those things.

473

:

but I would say they're more because

of the stage of growth that Zapier

474

:

is at, they are probably more.

475

:

Aligned with the strategic projects and

more so, prioritizing, sort of bigger

476

:

bets, Ooh, could we figure out how to

solve this drop off point where we have

477

:

people coming inbound and they're not

actually engaging with our chat, we have

478

:

a chat team, a sales team that just does

chat and it's a high velocity motion.

479

:

And.

480

:

And so they might have a project in

marketing ops to figure out how to reduce

481

:

that friction and drive, make sure that

like those leads are not dropping off.

482

:

So they will have like other

strategic projects like that.

483

:

We also have a lot of AI projects that

we sort of like position as strategic

484

:

because we view those as helping us

learn and grow and figure out the

485

:

next phase of what rev ops could be.

486

:

But we.

487

:

Definitely have to make

room for that stuff.

488

:

and that is just like lots of transparency

with our stakeholders, lots of trust

489

:

building, lots of communication about

like why these things are important.

490

:

Justin Norris: So thinking about

that prioritization and kind of

491

:

planning process, is that, like

yearly, quarterly, monthly sprints,

492

:

do the teams have autonomy or do you

centralize it with you guiding it?

493

:

How do you think about where the

team should focus their time?

494

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger:

luckily for us, we are pretty.

495

:

deeply embedded in the

teams that we support.

496

:

So like, for example, we go, I go to

the leadership marketing leadership

497

:

meetings, myself and a member of my team

go to the sales leadership meetings.

498

:

And so I feel like we have a pretty

strong pulse on what the biggest

499

:

challenges are, at a strategic level.

500

:

however, what we tend to do is

operate on more of like a monthly

501

:

commit framework where we have this

overarching roadmap that we create

502

:

on a half yearly basis where we say

okay, these are the big things that

503

:

we need to figure out this half.

504

:

but because of how.

505

:

Agile and new.

506

:

A lot of our motions are, we find that

we, that operating on a monthly commit

507

:

framework and those monthly commits,

they're not exhaustive of everything

508

:

we're doing, but we go to the sales

and marketing and CS leadership and

509

:

we say, these are the two things

we're going to get done this month.

510

:

this is what we're committing to

delivering, and this is the business

511

:

impact that it's going to drive.

512

:

And so that might just be like.

513

:

One or two things across marketing,

sales, and CS that we, we commit to.

514

:

And, we can shift, if something changes,

we don't mind pulling that out or

515

:

getting feedback and swapping things

around just to make sure we're aligned.

516

:

But we've found that planning too

far out, like it just, the roadmap

517

:

gets pulled and changed so much.

518

:

The team loses morale.

519

:

So we found that just being

more agile upfront works for

520

:

us.

521

:

Justin Norris: In a high velocity,

high growth organization, it can kind

522

:

of be a waste of time to plan too far.

523

:

That's what I've observed

524

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yeah,

525

:

Justin Norris: It's not worth the

paper that it's written on anymore.

526

:

you mentioned impact and that can

be something that is difficult

527

:

for some revenue operators.

528

:

To like, like aside from saying we closed

so many tickets or we launched so many

529

:

campaigns or we did so many projects

really tying your work to impact.

530

:

How do you think about that?

531

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: we use two I

guess, frameworks for how we do this.

532

:

One is did we add new

functionality or capabilities?

533

:

it's a little bit trickier sometimes

to tie to revenue, but if we can

534

:

unlock a huge motion and literally

do something that we couldn't

535

:

do before, like outbounding, for

example, if you don't have the

536

:

tools to do that, you can't do it.

537

:

So we will sometimes latch on to like

features or capabilities as like.

538

:

Business value or business

impact that we're delivering.

539

:

and then we do also try to speak about

our wins under the lens of, additional

540

:

sales capacity or selling time or

like, ROI on marketing dollars spent,

541

:

like we will, Even if it doesn't

have to be scientific in most cases.

542

:

Like I think you can really

get the point across about

543

:

your value as an organization.

544

:

If you're just making sure that you

include that, why was this worth it?

545

:

Because we saved you from hiring another

salesperson basically, because now you're

546

:

working deals that are going to close.

547

:

You're spending, less amount

of time closing those deals.

548

:

we really try and focus on like, what's

the profitability that we drove, like

549

:

whether it be additional sales capacity,

or like, Just time saved, which is pretty

550

:

easy to like, put some math behind and

say like, that equals this in revenue.

551

:

And that doesn't even, include

additional deals when it's literally

552

:

just like time we've saved per employee,

553

:

Justin Norris: And it sounds like

you're also thinking a lot about

554

:

things like, deal cycle length deal

value, I mean, that's one of the

555

:

really nice things I like about PLG

and I've had some past experience

556

:

working for a PLG company myself that

the automations that you can drive

557

:

actually can like directly impact revenue

from a direct response point of view.

558

:

Like you roll out a new

automation and then more people

559

:

put their credit card down.

560

:

And that's a really cool feeling

that, a lot of folks in an

561

:

enterprise context don't always get.

562

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: 100 percent it's

really rewarding to be able to see, a

563

:

small automation or optimization lead

directly to revenue rather quickly,

564

:

especially for some of the, higher

velocity, low touch motions that We

565

:

just had one very recently where a

marketing ops person was like, Hey, I

566

:

think if we add another, like automated

sales touch for this lead type, I think

567

:

we could drive like a lot of revenue.

568

:

And it was like insane.

569

:

She launched, it was very

small, very easy to do.

570

:

And it like closed a gap and it

equated to pretty significant,

571

:

like additional revenue number.

572

:

So there's just so much opportunity,

I think, like when you have the

573

:

volume and like the funnel to like,

we say obsess over, cause there,

574

:

there's so many like potential drop

off points, which also makes the job

575

:

harder too, because, you really have

to prioritize and make the right bets.

576

:

Justin Norris: So I want to

geek out a little bit on, on

577

:

like technology and data topics.

578

:

cause you're in an automation space.

579

:

Let's maybe start with, you mentioned

you're using HubSpot for your CRM.

580

:

Is that also your marketing

automation platform?

581

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yes, it is.

582

:

our tool stack is interesting.

583

:

So we have had to, this was

like such a tough decision.

584

:

Uh, when I we have.

585

:

iterable, which is our email

tool, like our, it's a mass

586

:

personalization email tool.

587

:

It's really good at making hyper

personalized email experiences.

588

:

so we had Arable when I joined,

we're starting to like experiment

589

:

with human touch and sales brought

on the CRM and HubSpot, but we also

590

:

didn't really have a true marketing

automation platform because we weren't

591

:

really doing like B2B marketing.

592

:

We were doing like More

of a like B to C, right?

593

:

Like a more of a one to one.

594

:

so yes, brought on, HubSpot

marketing automation and CRM and

595

:

it's continued to scale for us,

which is pretty, pretty cool.

596

:

and then we use intercom for chat.

597

:

And then, Gong, LinkedIn sales, Nav,

Looker for analytics and Chili Piper

598

:

to help with like our, lead management

and like instant booking capabilities.

599

:

Justin Norris: It's interesting

that you mentioned that HubSpot

600

:

has continued to scale for you.

601

:

Cause I think there is this perception in

the marketplace like, yeah, it's HubSpot.

602

:

It's good.

603

:

But at a certain point

you'll have to migrate.

604

:

And I had a chat with, a fellow named Rich

Archbold, who actually is of engineering

605

:

for HubSpot's own internal GTM systems.

606

:

And of course they use HubSpot too.

607

:

And I asked the same question, like,

does it, was it scaled for them?

608

:

So it means it was scaled for them.

609

:

So maybe there is this,

misperception in the marketplace.

610

:

what have you found in terms of like

scaling your business on HubSpot,

611

:

any challenges, or is it actually

maybe the grass is sort of greener

612

:

over here for some Salesforce folks?

613

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yeah.

614

:

I mean, it's tough.

615

:

Like we constantly go back and forth

and debate, has a great user experience.

616

:

Like we, Yeah.

617

:

And customer experience.

618

:

We really just love the team over

there and just have had a great

619

:

account manager for a long time.

620

:

Technical support.

621

:

and so we've really stretched the limits.

622

:

I would say of HubSpot CRM where.

623

:

We've got custom objects and we've got,

we're using like, all of the new features

624

:

as soon as they release them to like,

be able to customize our sales process.

625

:

But I would say we're, it's hard

for us to predict the future.

626

:

But for now we have fairly simple

and straightforward sales motions

627

:

that we're and proving out.

628

:

And so for our use case, it

works really well for that.

629

:

Some of the gaps that we've had are just

probably mostly around Some integrations,

630

:

just are made, tailor made for Salesforce.

631

:

but for us who use Zapier in our

back pocket for everything, like

632

:

we've been able to use Zapier to like

sort of enhance our integrations.

633

:

For example, with intercom,

like intercom to Hubsan.

634

:

spot is fine, but like we, we have a

pretty customized workflow of how our

635

:

sales team uses intercom and then how

those leads get pushed through to like

636

:

other reps and customer success managers.

637

:

So we, we use Zapier for that integration

or to like augment that integration.

638

:

and again, I think We use

Zapier for a lot of different

639

:

things across our go to market.

640

:

so the combination of, and I

of course didn't even mention

641

:

Zapier as part of our tool stack.

642

:

but it combined with HubSpot

is very, it allows for a very

643

:

customized experience and it's

644

:

working for us.

645

:

Justin Norris: So let's,

talk a little bit about that.

646

:

Cause that's cool.

647

:

And I think, the basics of creating

a zap are probably pretty familiar

648

:

to most people who understand like if

this, then that type of functionality.

649

:

One of the things I'm curious about is

when you start to roll out automations

650

:

at a, a larger company, approaching

enterprise scale, It seems to me that

651

:

it could get hairy in the sense of like,

the left hand not knowing what the right

652

:

hand is doing and zaps contradicting

each other, overriding each other.

653

:

What's the kind of governance or like

building framework, the architecture

654

:

that you put in place to keep that

series of automations coherent.

655

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: so Zapier now does

at least have like admin capabilities.

656

:

And so we have in our account,

like we have oversight over what

657

:

apps are like connected to what and

what workflows are doing at a high

658

:

level and, reporting around that.

659

:

and so we have a member of our team

owns integrations at a whole and can

660

:

see across all of our integrations, like

what's being updated by Zapier versus

661

:

what is like a native integration or

what might be being updated by our ETL.

662

:

So that's really through like

documentation and having a single, body

663

:

like overseeing that full ecosystem.

664

:

but I would say like the ways that we use

Zapier, in addition to like integrations,

665

:

tied to our CRM are more of like little

mini applications to enhance our CRM

666

:

that wouldn't have competing workflows.

667

:

So for example, we have a series

of zaps that is a little like

668

:

sales enablement, application.

669

:

And what it does is it looks at

all of our like gong transcripts.

670

:

So all of our call transcripts.

671

:

It takes that data.

672

:

It has an AI step that, our sales

enablement person set up that says

673

:

like, okay, look at these calls and give

some constructive feedback for the rep.

674

:

did they nail their negotiation or like

objection handling or like, did they

675

:

talk about the Zapier value proposition?

676

:

and that all goes into a Zapier table.

677

:

That then each sales manager has access

to and can like quickly glance okay,

678

:

what are the learnings I need to like

really like nail down with each member

679

:

of my team and one on ones this week.

680

:

And so that's an example of something

that we built with Zapier that

681

:

customizes our CRM and connect

some of our different tools.

682

:

But I'm not so worried about That

zap conflicting with something else.

683

:

So I think the integration layer is like

one, but then there's also this Sales

684

:

efficiency enablement layer of things

that we use Zapier for that is a little

685

:

bit more the wild west to be honest.

686

:

Like I let the team do what you

need to do, try and figure out,

687

:

let's find some cool use cases here.

688

:

and we haven't had an issue yet,

but, the oversight is important

689

:

definitely for those like system of

690

:

record

691

:

updates.

692

:

Justin Norris: I'd love to see a

screenshot of that SAP you described.

693

:

Cause I was trying to build

something, uh, very similar.

694

:

So you'll save me some time though, like

gong transcript to AI to table, workflow.

695

:

that would be very handy

696

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Awesome.

697

:

I'll follow up.

698

:

Justin Norris: I'm really curious

about like CRM data model and product

699

:

signals and data, you mentioned having

a custom object for like accounts.

700

:

Maybe let's just talk through like

how that's linked together and then

701

:

how you're providing visibility on

product signals to, users of the

702

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: So this was tough.

703

:

when we initially brought on a sales

motion because not only do they need

704

:

access to data to like have the Good

conversations with their customers.

705

:

Like they need to know how their customers

are using Zapier today to be able to have

706

:

an effective like sales conversation.

707

:

So that's one, but then when it

comes to like finding those moments

708

:

in time, when a customer is ripe for

expansion or where like human touch

709

:

could be really valuable, we're super

reliant on product signals for that.

710

:

A challenging thing is we have a

lot of product signals and we need

711

:

them in real time or near real time.

712

:

And that wasn't a capability for us,

in terms of like our data architecture

713

:

until more recently, until we

brought on sales and really had to

714

:

like, be intentional about that.

715

:

but it can be very expensive.

716

:

You can't send all of

that data in real time.

717

:

so you have to be really smart about

like what data matters, what data

718

:

you need in real time versus when.

719

:

Yeah.

720

:

Just 24 hours is fine.

721

:

And then we can use our normal sink.

722

:

what we do, it kind of varies

depending on the product signal.

723

:

but we do sometimes use Zapier to send a

product signal into HubSpot, in particular

724

:

to like validate and see is this signal

leading to the outcomes that we want?

725

:

Like, are those sales

conversations, successful?

726

:

so with the product signal side of it,

that has been looped into that motion

727

:

that I mentioned earlier, where we have

the tiger team who figures out what

728

:

products signals matter, and that's why

it's so important for RevOps to be in the

729

:

room so that we can help orchestrate the

data to do that, because in most cases.

730

:

We don't have all the data

in our CRM necessarily.

731

:

Like at this point we've got the

things that we know matter, like

732

:

someone activated his app or

somebody connected a system of

733

:

record or a CRM, things like that.

734

:

We've had to orchestrate and build over

time once we validated that worked.

735

:

Justin Norris: do you have a separate

table of product signals or do you

736

:

have just fields on the HubSpot

contact record or account record?

737

:

Where does that sort of data live?

738

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: it varies.

739

:

typically does live in our

CRM at the contact level.

740

:

So at the contact level, a

user takes a specific action.

741

:

it's synced over into HubSpot.

742

:

It might run a workflow that activates a

campaign like a automated sales outreach.

743

:

in a lot of cases too, there's a

whole process that needs to run

744

:

where say it's the signal is a

zap was activated or specific type

745

:

of zap, zap activated by user.

746

:

Send signal to, HubSpot CRM attached

to user, assign a user as a lead to a

747

:

particular sales rep, send an automated

sales outreach email, if that's what

748

:

we want to do in some cases, we might

actually send sales a notification

749

:

and then they will reach out.

750

:

So it depends on the campaign.

751

:

but then we also.

752

:

aggregate those product signals at the

company level or at the organization

753

:

level so that when a rep is looking

at an account it can see like oh well

754

:

this account has five zaps activated

around this particular use case so

755

:

that they can also have like a Good.

756

:

And like productive

conversation with that company.

757

:

but it's taken us a lot of time and

really like focused effort, not only

758

:

to figure out like what signals,

but like how quickly we need them,

759

:

how we're going to orchestrate them.

760

:

Do we want to use Zapier?

761

:

Do we want to use high touch

our ETL or, some other way.

762

:

So, it's been a, definitely

a work in progress.

763

:

Justin Norris: The roles and

responsibilities of different systems gets

764

:

really complex, when you have multiple

options and paths and that sort of thing.

765

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: Yeah, absolutely.

766

:

And this is another area where we

have a sort of a working group.

767

:

So we have, a data warehouse

engineer and, someone on our team

768

:

and RevOps and, a product manager

who actually like oversees our.

769

:

platforms like internal infrastructure.

770

:

and so they form a little working

group where Revops plays this role

771

:

where we're translating business needs.

772

:

into technical requirements.

773

:

So like in the past, I think without

Rev Ops in this situation, I think it

774

:

would be really challenging for the

data warehouse engineer to understand,

775

:

do we need this in real time?

776

:

Sales is always going to

say, yeah, we need it in

777

:

real time.

778

:

but Rev Ops plays this really like

complimentary role in that scenario where

779

:

we can like really look at like, what

does the business need in this scenario?

780

:

What is the path of least

resistance to get there?

781

:

and how do I coordinate with

data and engineering on that?

782

:

And if you think about to like product

signals and new products, sometimes we

783

:

won't even have the event that measures

that signal available, in which case

784

:

we need an engineer to go build that.

785

:

And so I could probably do a whole session

or someone on my team who focuses on

786

:

this could do a whole session on like

the evolution of that relationship.

787

:

But we do have some standardization

now where we know if it's this type

788

:

of product signal for this type of

campaign, it's going to be seen,

789

:

it's going to be set up in this way.

790

:

So

791

:

Justin Norris: that is so interesting.

792

:

And, we could probably go a lot deeper

down that path, but I know we are out

793

:

of time and I just want to say thank

you for popping the hood and taking

794

:

us inside the engine that you built.

795

:

It's super cool.

796

:

And it honestly sounds like a lot of fun.

797

:

So, I hope it's as enjoyable

as it sounds like day to day.

798

:

Lindsay Rothlisberger: absolutely.

799

:

I have an amazing team, so it's

all them, but it's been a really,

800

:

really fun intellectually challenging

experience to like transition from.

801

:

B2B marketing to something like this.

802

:

But, we're going to see a lot of

companies start to go this route.

803

:

So I'm honored and grateful that I've had

the opportunity to learn in this, case.

804

:

So thank you.

805

:

Thanks for having

806

:

me.

807

:

Justin Norris: so much

for being on the show.

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