In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Jim Kanichirayil, our podcast co-host and executive producer, sits down with Amanda Woodard, Senior Director of HR at Submittable, to unpack what changes when talent acquisition goes hybrid, candidate pools explode, and AI makes it easier than ever for bad actors to slip into your pipeline.

Amanda shares her unconventional path from customer success into TA and HR, and why that revenue-side experience helped her operationalize recruiting like a pipeline, not a reactive process. From there, the conversation zooms into the real-world tension HR teams are facing right now: opening up remote hiring to access better talent, while also tightening controls to prevent fraud, deepfakes, and identity mismatches that can put the business at risk, especially in highly regulated environments.

She breaks down the practical systems her team uses to protect candidate quality without killing candidate flow, including multi-step ID verification, digital footprint checks, geolocation signals, and reference validation that focuses less on “good feedback” and more on authenticity. Along the way, Amanda offers a clear-eyed take on the AI hype cycle, why most “AI” tools are actually automation, and what HR leaders can do today while major ATS and background check providers race to build native solutions.

Topics Discussed:

1. The shift from onsite recruiting to hybrid hiring, and why competition intensified
2. How revenue-side experience can transform TA into a more operational, pipeline-driven function
3. Navigating leadership resistance and trust issues during the move to remote work
4. Why candidate fraud is escalating, and what it means for HR and TA teams
5. Using automation vs. true AI to reduce application review time
6. Filtering and reverse-filtering candidates based on skills and signals
7. Multi-layer identity verification: digital footprint checks, photo ID gates, and reference validation
8. Balancing candidate experience with security and risk mitigation
9. Why transparency in the process reduces candidate drop-off
10. What TA leaders should implement now, regardless of industry, to reduce hiring risk

If you are an HR or Talent Acquisition leader trying to keep hiring quality high in a hybrid world where AI-driven fraud is becoming more common, this episode offers a practical look at how to build tighter safeguards without losing trust, speed, or the ability to compete for strong candidates.

Additional Resources:

1. Cleary’s AI-powered HR Chatbot
2. Future Proof HR Community
3. Connect with Amanda Woodard on LinkedIn

*Note: Amanda was with Submittable at the time of this recording.

The other thing that I think impacted some of our challenges was trying

2

to figure out how to create policies and

expectations around what remote or hybrid

3

work looked like and balancing having

a leadership team that was like very

4

anti remote, even though they knew that

there was something they had to adapt to.

5

Jim: When we're talking about AI

in the world of HR and the world of

6

talent acquisition, the debate often

becomes, is this going to be an AI

7

on autopilot world, an AI empowered

world, or an AI enabled world?

8

And where you fall in those buckets can

depend on your personal experiences.

9

In today's conversation with

Amanda Woodard, what we're gonna

10

do is actually look at how.

11

There are two transformations

that had to be navigated in a

12

world where an organization was

moving from a fully onsite to a

13

hybrid world in the FinTech space.

14

And when you think about FinTech

as a sector, this is a sector

15

that moves at a glacial pace.

16

So the idea of innovating within AI and

the idea of transforming a culture that

17

is dominantly onsite to hybrid or remote.

18

Is a tough task in and of itself.

19

But what happens when you're trying to

make those transformations and at the same

20

time you're seeing advances in technology

go a direction which makes it really easy

21

for fake candidates to come in through

the pipeline and potentially expose your

22

organization to risk and even compromise.

23

Those are some real dangers and

risks that need to be examined,

24

which creates the case that you need

to have tight processes that allow

25

you to capture the highest quality

candidates while still having a decent

26

volume of candidate flow that you can

successfully fill the roles that you have.

27

This is a story about how AI.

28

Is empowering organizations versus

AI that is coming in to take over and

29

run the organization on autopilot.

30

And the person leading us through

that story is Amanda Woodard.

31

She is the senior director

of HR at Submittable.

32

Amanda thrives at the

intersection of strategy and

33

sarcasm because someone has to.

34

She's a setter taco enthusiast,

devoted dog mom, and avid music lover.

35

Often spotted at emo and pop punk shows.

36

Amanda's built a career out of channeling

anxiety into proactive planning and

37

calling it strategy when it all works out.

38

Amanda, excited to have you on.

39

Welcome to the show.

40

Amanda: Thanks so much for having me, Jim.

41

Jim: I'm looking forward

to this conversation.

42

It's going to be pretty interesting,

especially for me as a former recruiter.

43

I think we're going to

get into a lot of areas.

44

That's going to be pretty interesting

when we look at it from a TA perspective.

45

But before we dive into that, I think

it's important for you to set the stage

46

a little bit and share with us a little

bit about your background overall and

47

also what we all know the world of talent

acquisition to be and what you've seen

48

over the years in talent acquisition.

49

And then we'll go from there.

50

Amanda: Yeah, sure.

51

So high level, a little about me, my

career, interestingly enough, started in

52

customer success and account management.

53

So I wasn't even an HR

or TA person by trade.

54

I happened into it one time when we were

trying to scale for a really large client

55

at a company I was working at and it

worked really well and ended up taking

56

talent acquisition over at that part.

57

Talent acquisition ended up being

the doorway into HR for me and that

58

has just carried my career forward

59

today where I am a Head of HR for

software company called Submittable.

60

When we think about talent

acquisition and where it was when I

61

started versus how it's progressed.

62

We have probably a few seasons, right?

63

There's pre-pandemic when we're

still bringing people in on site,

64

at least in my experience, video

interviews were a lot less common.

65

And then we have post-pandemic, where that

was all we did for a really long time.

66

We saw a ton of people getting

into talent acquisition and

67

we had recruiters everywhere.

68

And we saw sometimes the market was

up and it was easy to get a job.

69

And we've seen where the market was

down and it was difficult to get a job.

70

And so I think the way that we strategize

how to get around that looks very

71

different than it does for me now.

72

We had to do a ton of sourcing strategy.

73

We had to be really proactive

about reaching out to candidates

74

and making sure that we were

aligning with those ideal profiles.

75

It took a lot more planning and dining

to get people to bite and be interested

76

in the organization and the role.

77

And it was just a lot more proactive.

78

And then it has started to shift

where we saw fewer companies hiring.

79

We started to see a ton of layoffs.

80

We saw that impacting our friends in

the talent acquisition and the HR space.

81

And it just dipped from there.

82

Jim: Really interesting landscape, Amanda.

83

There's several things that caught my

attention as you were talking through it.

84

And I think one of the things that

I'm most interested in is going

85

back to your origin story where you

came from customer success into HR.

86

And that's a unique journey.

87

What were your observations moving from

a revenue side of the organization into

88

more of an admin or cost center of an

organization making that transition from

89

customer success to HR that had to be

a pretty significant change of pace.

90

So what were your observations

and how did you apply those

91

observations to optimize the function?

92

Amanda: I love that question.

93

Because it touches on something that

I'm super passionate about, which

94

is looking at HR and your people

strategy as a revenue generating

95

function, as opposed to being a cost

center, which is viewed traditionally.

96

I think because I had so much exposure

to what the revenue process looked

97

like from a sales perspective and the

customer lifecycle journey and all of

98

the pieces that went into acquiring

a new client and then retaining them.

99

A lot of it translated really

nicely into talent acquisition.

100

So quite frankly, it was a pretty smooth

transition once I realized that I could

101

apply almost all of the processes that

I had for what I was doing on a sales

102

side to what I was doing from a TA side.

103

It helped.

104

Were able to apply a ton of

stuff to our charging strategy.

105

We were able to apply it to retention.

106

We were honestly like just used it to

operationalize our talent acquisition

107

and then our HR practice altogether.

108

So it is not a common career progression,

but it is one that has served me

109

very well, I think, because I had

that revenue experience and also just

110

the business acumen operationally.

111

Then a lot of times they think HR people

get robbed of getting exposure to.

112

Jim: Interesting.

113

So the other thing that caught

my attention was that you've,

114

been in HR across sort of three

different areas, pre-pandemic, the

115

pandemic era and post-pandemic.

116

And as somebody that came out of the

agency recruiting world, I've been

117

through those three areas as well.

118

And I've also been in the

pre-housing crash, housing crash

119

and post-housing crash era too.

120

So it seems like people of a certain

age are just dealing with economic

121

crashes and figuring that stuff out.

122

What I am interested in getting

your perspective on is when you look

123

at the pandemic and pre-pandemic

era of talent acquisition, what

124

was the typical operating rhythm?

125

What were the challenges that you

were dealing with in those two spots

126

and how did you respond to those

challenges and adapt your organization

127

to meet what was required at the time?

128

Amanda: Yeah.

129

Pre-pandemic, the organization was

still very much on site and there were

130

certain areas of the business that were

geographically dispersed or remote, but

131

for the most part, we were all in one HQ

area, which really limited my talent pool.

132

So the ways that we would go out and try

to find talent for early career people,

133

I literally was walking around Nordstrom

with business cards and handing them out

134

to people that I thought had potential for

like early career customer service roles.

135

And for some of the more technical roles

where they were able to be remote, I was

136

doing weird stuff like Googling phone

system repairs and then calling and trying

137

to make relationships with people that had

alignment in the work that we were doing.

138

At the time LinkedIn was thing, but

the type of technical talent that I was

139

recruiting with voice and data engineers

didn't have a ton of presence on LinkedIn.

140

So we had to find different ways

to go out and find that talent.

141

It was very much network related,

people network related, and who do

142

you know and how can you leverage that

to find other people for those roles?

143

And then how do we find people to

take roles that we need on site

144

because we had no flexibility there.

145

Post-pandemic that flipped kind

of everything, which was great in

146

terms of having a much wider tool

of talent that we could talk to.

147

But I think one of the areas where the

organization I was with at the time

148

really struggled with was figuring

out how to adapt to changing employee

149

expectations and requirements.

150

And so then it became more challenging

because if you weren't competitive

151

with work from home or remote flexible

work, if you had really stringent

152

requirements on what do you do if your

kid's in daycare and you work from home?

153

Those types of things made it really

difficult to be creative and that impacted

154

our sourcing recruiting strategy for sure.

155

And then this is also where I started

getting more process focused and

156

bringing in some of the stuff that

I had done on a sales team in terms

157

creating pipeline and looking at

email campaigns and things like that.

158

Really just having to figure

out how to apply those kind of

159

technical process drops to like

sourcing and talking to candidates

160

that I hadn't struggled with before.

161

Jim: Got it.

162

So think through what you're describing,

and I can relate to kind of everything

163

that you're talking about, when

you're dealing with a primarily onsite

164

environment, your talent pool is

restricted to maybe a 20 mile radius

165

around where your headquarters is.

166

And that has an implication

on your employee.

167

value proposition and your

employer value proposition.

168

How do you sell a particular role or

a company where you have a commute?

169

Now in the pandemic and post-pandemic

area, the implication of having wider

170

talent pools is that you get better

overall talent and you have access

171

to more talent overall as well.

172

And should make the job easier, but it

doesn't really work out that way, does it?

173

So tell us a little bit about some of the

things that popped up as we transitioned

174

from a mainly onsite, geographically bound

hiring strategy to a hybrid or remote,

175

and in some cases, international talent

strategy, what did you start seeing?

176

Amanda: Competition got so fierce.

177

Which did surprise me because

now everybody has access

178

to a wider talent pool.

179

And so you would think that there would

be great talent to go around for everyone.

180

But as is with the case we've now,

people want to work for great companies

181

and benefits and total compensation

packages and all of those things are

182

contributing factors to what that looks

like for an employee when they take a job.

183

And so if you are not a fang company

and you're in the tech space and maybe

184

you're a small voice and data provider

and you're not Accenture, like you can't

185

compete with some of the things like from

a compensation or benefit standpoint that

186

those other organizations can't either.

187

The other thing that I think impacted

some of our challenges was trying to

188

figure out how to create policies and

expectations around what remote or hybrid

189

work looked like and balancing having

a leadership team that was like very

190

anti remote, even though they knew that

there was something they had to adapt to.

191

And so there was very much the sense

of like control that was perceived

192

as we don't trust our employees.

193

And that made it really difficult for us

to be competitive in the talent landscape

194

as well, because people would have

questions about flexible work and just

195

work life balance and all of those things.

196

And that was another area where we

really struggled to compete at first

197

because it was very much like, okay,

yes, you can work from home, but you are

198

expected to be in your chair from 7 a.m.

199

to 4 p.m.

200

and your little green dot has to be

on and if we can't ping you, then it's

201

probably because you're mowing the lawn.

202

And so that was something that also

ended up working against us where we

203

were trying to influence something

that was happening to the business

204

operationally, but was directly impacting

our ability to attract top talent.

205

Jim: So it's interesting that you're

navigating both a talent strategy

206

transformation, and it sounds

like you had to navigate sort of

207

a cultural transformation as well.

208

Because oftentimes what I've found in

talking with other HR leaders is that

209

those organizations that have senior

and executive leadership that pushes

210

back against remote or hybrid structures

usually have some gaps in terms of overall

211

leadership style and competency and

management style and competency as well.

212

Looking back at that time,

is that what you observed?

213

And if it is what you observed,

how did you actually triage that

214

aspect of organizational challenge

while at the same time dealing

215

with the talent sourcing strategy

transformation that you're dealing with?

216

Amanda: Yeah, I think

there's a few things there.

217

One of the things that I did not

connect back then that I wish I

218

would have was honestly generational

differences in work styles.

219

I definitely uncovered some

220

new leadership gaps in some areas

where needed to tighten up and

221

we'll talk about that in a second.

222

But I don't know that it's always

fair to put everyone in that bucket

223

when a lot of it sometimes is simply

perception because of a generation.

224

And so at the time all of

our C-suite were Boomers.

225

Our senior leadership was Gen X and

then we didn't have the millennials

226

in the workforce quite yet.

227

So the rest of us were Millennials and

we were still super entitled and we had

228

these like preconceived notions of that.

229

And so I think a lot of

it was generational and I

230

still run into that today.

231

But one of the other things that

we did uncover is just how much

232

micromanagement was happening.

233

And as a result of that, was just

like surprising how much we realized

234

our productivity was being impacted.

235

And it really was like

a top-down trust issue.

236

And

237

one of the challenges that created for me

was when we would go to open a new role,

238

getting approval to have it be on site

versus remote, if it had traditionally

239

been on site, is really where we

started to untangle all of those things.

240

And so that's where we started having

the, like the conversations of,

241

but why does it have to be on site?

242

What are you worried about that

it isn't going to be successful.

243

Doing some pros and cons and at

the time I was also responsible

244

for learning and development.

245

So that also was like, okay, we need to

do some work on our middle management,

246

leadership foundations and building trust.

247

And then I needed to be able to

leverage my influence to say, okay,

248

just let me try this a couple of times.

249

And if it's successful.

250

Then we can reevaluate

how we make that decision.

251

And if it's not, then we'll just go

back to doing it the way you want it.

252

And we were able to make it

successful for the most part.

253

Jim: So it's interesting that you're

describing this and I'm hearing a

254

little bit of risk that you're taking

because you're sticking your neck

255

out and trying to fight the dominant

culture within the organization that's

256

resistant to this sort of change.

257

And you finally get momentum

in the right direction.

258

But the thing that I think about

is even before you're dealing with

259

heavy remote staff, was running a

agency recruiting firm for a metro

260

market and all of our candidates were

generally within the metro market area.

261

But there would be people

that had 40 minutes commutes

262

into where we were located.

263

So we would just take a remote interview

that way instead of having them come in.

264

But even in those instances, we ran

into issues where people were having

265

stunt doubles in those environments

and you would get a different person

266

showing up in the interview process,

even in those local environments.

267

So you've gotten momentum and stuck

your neck out and you've gotten some

268

buy-in to move people in the direction

of opening up the candidate pool,

269

being more open to remote candidates.

270

But even in an environment where you

were interviewing more locally, you

271

still had to have strong processes

in there that you could vet out

272

candidates on a real basis and validate

that their skills met the role.

273

How did you navigate that challenge in

a more remote recruiting environment

274

where that becomes a lot tougher?

275

What did you encounter and

what did you do to combat that?

276

Amanda: We learned a lot of lessons

along the way, I can tell you that.

277

We learned quickly that leveraging

video over phone calls whenever possible

278

was something that was important.

279

I learned that candidates didn't

really know immediately how to

280

be part of a remote

interview at the beginning.

281

So in some ways I felt like we

were also training candidates on

282

how to show up for an interview.

283

And then we also had to just really adjust

the way that we looked at structural

284

interviews and get really smart about the

behavioral questions that we were asking.

285

And that is also about the time when

we started implementing like online

286

technical assessments or any sort of

like testing that we would have for

287

technical roles to give us a good

indication of skill proficiency, which

288

at the end of the day, honestly, gave

us a better indication of whether or

289

not someone was going to be successful

in the role prior to what we were doing

290

when it was in person and more intuitive.

291

Jim: So you put more process in, but I

want to wind back just a little bit into

292

what led to those processes being put in.

293

Because one of the things that I

encountered at the beginning of the

294

pandemic and even before that is that

when we would have virtual interviews with

295

candidates that weren't geographically

limited to our area, you would often

296

have one person on camera and somebody

else like feeding answers or acting as

297

a stunt double or something like that.

298

So to the point where we had

instances where people who showed

299

up at the work site were different

than the ones that we interviewed.

300

So when you expand that out from a virtual

interview setting, did you experience

301

that and what sort of controls did you

put in as a result to mitigate the risk

302

of somebody showing up that wasn't the

actual person that you interviewed?

303

Amanda: It's funny that you ask

that because I think for whatever

304

reason, we were extremely lucky that

in my entire career, we never had

305

that happen, either with on-site or

remote people or even across multiple

306

organizations that I've worked for.

307

And you saying that just really reinforces

that I was way too trusting for a

308

long time because I wasn't even aware

that was something that was happening.

309

Until very recently, when we started

hiring quite a bit again, and we were

310

just completely overwhelmed and inundated

with the number of candidates that we

311

were receiving for some of our open roles.

312

And at that point we were like, okay,

we have to pivot our strategy again.

313

We're a small team.

314

We don't know how to get through

all of these applications.

315

I started kind of asking around in some

different forums that I am a part of like,

316

what are some things that you guys can do?

317

Like, how are you leveraging

AI to get through this?

318

And while we did figure that out, one

of the other things that came up was

319

someone shared an FBI article with me

about just bad actors that were posing

320

as candidates and then turning laptops

or company access over to North Korea.

321

There's recently a Forbes article

talking about this as well.

322

There's tons of just different

aspects of fraudulent activity that

323

is occurring today above and beyond

just the typical 25 % of people

324

lay on their resume type of thing.

325

And it's scary.

326

Thomas Kunjappu: This has been

a fantastic conversation so far.

327

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

328

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

329

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

330

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

331

can all thrive in the age of ai.

332

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

333

community.

334

Now back to the show.

335

Jim: So when you have a couple of these

things that are popping up at a national

336

level, where you're talking about foreign

bad actors, potentially compromising

337

internal systems with fake candidates

and whatnot, but you referenced there,

338

there are ways that you can leverage

AI as a countermeasure against that.

339

So what are some of the things

that you've learned or done

340

to combat the risk of that?

341

Amanda: Yes.

342

So first I'm going to

start with a hot take.

343

Everybody has been completely

inundated with everyone in their

344

leaked in messaging, getting blown

up about, we have AI to do this.

345

We have AI to do that.

346

And let's be real, most of the time

it's not AI, it's just automation.

347

And I'm not knocking automation

because that has saved my

348

biscuits like a ton of time.

349

But let's be clear automation

and AI are not the same thing.

350

One of the things that we have done,

we was filtering and reverse filtering,

351

which isn't really an AI thing.

352

But being able to then score the

candidates based off of skills and

353

things that are on their resume or

not on their resume is one thing

354

that we were able to leverage AI for.

355

And that significantly reduced the

amount of time that we had to spend

356

just in the application review part.

357

There are some other more tactical

old school things that we actually

358

implemented to help encourage people

not to apply if they were fake.

359

Like having, taking away easy apply

on LinkedIn, for example, and making

360

people actually fill out an application

and having the application have drop

361

downs and check boxes and long texts

and short texts so that it would be

362

more difficult for a bot to fill it out.

363

And then keyword search, like I mentioned.

364

One of the other things that we

would do is reverse keyword search.

365

So if there were.

366

specific skills or specific parts of a

tech stack or something that we wanted

367

to look for that maybe wasn't included

in the job description, we would search

368

for those and then aggregate that versus

what we had done from our original filter

369

to try to get down to viable candidates.

370

Jim: So that's at the application stage.

371

What changes or processes did you

implement at the interview stage to make

372

sure that candidate quality remained high?

373

Amanda: Yeah, so now we have

multiple levels of ID verification

374

and you think of it as multiple

gates as you go through the process.

375

The first gate is a digital

ID footprint verification.

376

And so that's just taking basic

information, name, phone number,

377

email address, and cross-referencing

against your digital profile

378

experience, if you will.

379

Checking for things like

what is your phone carrier?

380

Is your email actually an email that is

connected to something else that you would

381

use on an application in the internet?

382

Do you have consistent activity

that you would expect to see with a

383

real human on things like LinkedIn?

384

And then looking at geolocation.

385

So you told me you were in Ohio.

386

Does your IP address actually

reflect that you're in Ohio?

387

Now, we don't get the readout on all of

who your cell phone carrier is or what

388

apps or accounts you have or any of that.

389

That's not important, but really what

we're looking for is like a authenticity

390

score that says based off of everything

we see and can scrape from the internet,

391

it looks like you are who you say you are.

392

The second gate is where we do

like a photo ID verification.

393

And that comes across as a link

before you do a video interview.

394

So at this point, a candidate would

have gone through application and your

395

recruiter screen, and now they're probably

going to talk to a hiring manager.

396

They're somewhere in the interview loop.

397

And it's just a link before they

join a Google Meet, and then they're

398

asked to show a picture of a photo

ID, any sort of government issued ID.

399

And then we have a third party system

that will run that through and check

400

to make sure that it's not fake.

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That the person in the photo ID is also

the person being represented on the video.

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That has, I think, helped us

get away from having to do some

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of the awkward deep fake tests.

404

Like I call it the John Cena when

you're trying to make sure that

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you don't see someone having a

face overlay that's not theirs.

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The third check is a reference check.

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Obviously, like we do care about like

past performance, but also everyone knows

408

that no one's going to give a reference.

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So it's a bad reference.

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So what we're really looking for in that

situation is that the contact information

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that we've been given matches the

organizations that are on the candidate's

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resume where they said they worked.

413

And then we're also doing a side-by-side

comparison of geolocation like that.

414

For example, maybe we would run into

someone who has multiple email addresses

415

and they are their own reference and to

try to get around it, they talk to us

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on iPhone and they email us from a PC.

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But their IP address is all similar

or the same so we know that they're

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in the same like geolocation.

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Or maybe one or all of them are

not in the geolocation at all.

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Maybe they said that they were in Utah

and they are in fact in Bangladesh.

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And so those are some other areas

that we get some insight into.

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And then the last step

is a background track.

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Jim: So when I hear all of this, some of

this sounds like pre-hire, some of this

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sounds like it might be conditional to

hire, but I'm listening to the steps and

425

I get it from the employer side of it.

426

I'm thinking about it from the

candidate side and I can't take my

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recruiter agency recruiter hat off.

428

I'm thinking about two things.

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Candidate experience has got to be rough.

430

There's it's triggering

my creep factor alert.

431

Hey, this is really intrusive and I

don't even know if I have a job yet.

432

You're giving me a full

out like NSA check.

433

And then the third part of it is all

of the benefits that you get from being

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a remote or hybrid organization, being

able to recruit from bigger talent pools.

435

That shrinks it back down because

a lot of people are, even if they

436

are viable candidates, which there's

going to be a good chunk of viable

437

candidates are going to be like,

I'm not going through all of that.

438

Screw this place.

439

So how did you balance the need for proper

process while still maintaining a decent

440

enough candidate flow to justify that?

441

Hey, one of the big reasons why

we want to go remote is have a

442

bigger access to a candidate pool.

443

Amanda: Yeah.

444

It seems so creepy, right?

445

I think honestly like that's still

something that I am still struggling

446

with a little bit because I put myself,

if I were a candidate, are those

447

steps that I would want to go through.

448

It doesn't feel great to be going

through an interview process and

449

to feel like I'm already like

not trusted or like illegitimate.

450

For us, honestly, what we do is we

talk candidates through it upfront and

451

we're just very transparent about it.

452

So we have information on our careers

page and in the job application process

453

that like, this is our stance on AI.

454

These are our guidelines.

455

This is when it's okay to use it.

456

This is when it's not,

this is how we use it.

457

And then similarly, because of the

nature of our business and because

458

we want to protect our clients and

our employees and because of the

459

landscape today, we're gonna have

multiple layers of ID verification.

460

And so far, I haven't had

anyone tell me to pound sand.

461

I'm sure it's coming,

but so far it hasn't.

462

So we talk about it, it's there in the

application process for you to review.

463

We also talk about it quite a

bit in the phone screen process.

464

And I think one of the things

that's been able to help us

465

lessen the intensity feeling of it is by

connecting why we are doing this process

466

back to how it could impact the business.

467

And so for example, my company is

shuffling billions of dollars around on an

468

annual basis through government funding.

469

When candidates hear really big

numbers like that and they are able

470

to understand like, yeah, the type of

information that I could potentially

471

have access to could be detrimental

if it were in the hands of a bad guy.

472

I think it doesn't make it any

less intense, but it's okay.

473

Yeah, I can get my head wrapped

around that, and this is like a

474

standard protocol that makes sense.

475

And if I were applying for any fintech

company, I should probably expect

476

to see something along those lines.

477

Jim: So I want you to

zoom out a little bit.

478

So we've been really heavy in sort of the

specific use case that you've been talking

479

about your company within that sector

in the age of post-pandemic hybrid and

480

remote work and how you actually navigate

that environment where there is a lot

481

of candidate side potential for fraud.

482

So when you look at all of the things

that you can do from a candidate

483

perspective to game the system and you're

advising other TA leaders and other

484

HR leaders about systems of control

that you want to put in place in the

485

age of AI and the age of deep fakes.

486

What are the key action items that you

would recommend for those folks to have

487

in place, regardless of sector, to make

sure that they are getting who appears to

488

be, they're getting the same person that

they're looking at on paper in person.

489

Amanda: That's a great question.

490

I think the good news here is a lot

of the main, like the biggest ATSs

491

are like already reacting to this.

492

There is already going to be opportunities

to help combat this innately, likely

493

in tech techs that we're already using.

494

So if you are running background

checks, we use Checker and they are

495

getting ready to launch something that

does a lot of what I just described as

496

part of the background check process.

497

Greenhouse announced a

partnership with Clear.

498

There's a few others that are in

the works and higher might be one.

499

And I think a lot of that will include

some sort of biometric scan during

500

part of the video interview process.

501

So I think the good news is that the

tools that we use on a day-to-day basis

502

to help us hire top talent is reacting

quickly and trying to get tools out there

503

that we can use that help combat this.

504

So you don't have to do

quite so many manual steps.

505

In the meantime, I do think that anything

that you can do to try to qualify or

506

disqualify talent through the application

process, leveraging filters and skills.

507

And if you can do candidate

scoring, I think that's a great

508

way to help optimize the process.

509

And you will find very quickly if you're

not already doing this to how much

510

just fake stuff is already out there.

511

For example, I've never seen so

many resumes from folks that have

512

PhDs in petroleum engineering

from the University of Cameroon.

513

They must have a really strong program.

514

I don't know why they want to be

software engineers, but there you go.

515

So that's early on in the process.

516

And then I think some sort of

ID verification is important.

517

Whether you re-implement reference

checks of some kind or background

518

checks if that's part of your process.

519

I think something along those lines

needs to be part of the process now.

520

Even if you don't have access to check

like geolocation and IP addresses and

521

things like that, there is some kind of

fishy behavior that these folks typically

522

will let on throughout the process.

523

And so I think just knowing that they're

going to have to go through those steps

524

is going to help deter the ones that maybe

aren't super proficient professionals

525

in the fraud space quite yet.

526

Jim: Yeah, that's great advice.

527

And then think the one thing that I would

throw out there, that's more of an analog

528

process is to go really old school.

529

And when you're interviewing

people, interview using the

530

outcome based recruiting questions

that Lou Adler is famous for.

531

And that helped me catch a lot of

people that were trying to like

532

fluff their resume with stuff

that they didn't actually do.

533

This has been a great

conversation and I appreciate

534

you hanging out with us, Amanda.

535

If people want to continue the

conversation, which I'm pretty

536

sure they will, what's the best way

for them to get in touch with you?

537

Amanda: I am on LinkedIn.

538

Come find me there.

539

And I would be more than happy to

continue to nerd out on this stuff.

540

Jim: Awesome stuff.

541

It's been a great conversation and

I could probably talk about this

542

stuff for two hours because you never

really stopped being a recruiter.

543

When I think back, over the course of

this conversation, the key question that

544

we are thinking about is what does, what

do TA organizations, talent acquisition

545

organizations need to do in the age of AI?

546

Because the ability to fake a candidate

to get access to your environment

547

is only going to get better.

548

And I think the biggest thing that

stands out from this conversation is

549

that you need to get over the ickiness

of being of treading the line of being

550

creepy, because you have to understand

what your business objectives are.

551

And you also have to keep an eye on

the customers that you serve and the

552

impact of a breach on those customers

because you have a loose process.

553

So when you frame it in that perspective,

I think the important things that come

554

out of the conversation is that if you

want to bridge the gap between candidate

555

experience and having a tight process.

556

Being upfront and transparent is going

to go a long way in people being able to

557

swallow the steps that they have to take

to get in position to have a role there.

558

Connecting the why of the business

to the what and the how that you're

559

doing and the process that's there.

560

That's going to be important to you.

561

And I don't make a habit of

sounding like Simon Sinek.

562

This is an HR conversation.

563

He goes with the territory.

564

So when you're striking that balance

between candidate flow and candidate

565

quality, it's always makes sense to err on

the side of candidate quality, because if

566

you're just focusing on the quantity side,

you open yourself up to a lot of risk.

567

So learned a lot in this conversation

or appreciate you sharing that with us.

568

For those of you who have hung out with

us and listened to this conversation,

569

make sure you leave us a review on your

favorite podcast player, and then tune

570

in next time where we'll have another

HR leader sharing with us how they

571

plan on responding and transforming

the HR function in the age of AI.