How is the church of today and tomorrow to defend itself against "blasphemy laws" that are intended to thwart conversation in defense of the ministry? The church needs "liberty protection" to be allowed to speak truth in love without fear of losing the freedom to speak of spiritual matters in the secular marketplace. And that is what the Alliance Defending Freedom does. Join Rev. Greg Seltz and Alliance Director Sheri Huston in their timely discussion. 

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

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Welcome to engaging truth, where we engage the issues of the day with the truth, the power and the wisdom of God's word. Uh, I'm Dr. Gregory. Seltz the executive director of the Lutheran center for religious Liberty in Washington, DC. And I'll be your guest host today on the program. And I have a very special guest for our first program today, uh, Sherry Houston, and she's the regional Alliance director for ADFS church Alliance initiative. And, and I'm gonna say it this way, Sharon, you can correct me if I'm wrong. I you're responsible for connecting churches to the resources that ADF can provide for their ministry and also to connect, uh, churches to one another. Is that right?

That's correct.

Well, welcome to the program.

It's great to be here. Thanks Greg.

Well now listen, you and I are both. We, we work, I work in Washington DC, and you obviously with the churches are focused on some of these issues too. Religious Liberty is a big deal in America today. Uh, it is an, it's an issue that's near and dear to my heart, and I know to your work, but here's the question that, that a lot of people say to me and I'm sure say to you, why is there such a need for religious Liberty protections right now?

Well, that's such a good question and so important for, uh, the church to think about. We all know that the cultures changed, right? And so when the culture changes laws change, and then when laws change, it can really make it hard to do what pastors have been called to do, right? Mm-hmm and that's to preach the gospel mm-hmm . And when you think about that, really what's at stake is the lost. We know that the church is gonna go on no matter what scripture tells us that, right, but having religious Liberty in this country allows us the freedom so that we can continue to keep that door open for the gospel and put forth the saving message of Jesus Christ.

Yeah. You know, I, I say to the people all the time, I mean the apostle Paul and act 17, he used his Roman citizenship for the sake of the gospel. Right. But here's the good news in America. You have way more protections than he had first amendment protections in America, allow the church to be free to proclaim the whole gospel of God so that everybody can hear. But like you just said, though, things are changing culturally. And I think ADF that's one of the reasons why it started, because it started to see this whittling away of first amendment of protections and, and the church was being challenged in the public square. And so their job is to actually that protection alive. Is that right?

Yes, absolutely. It's, it's critically important that we're able to protect churches so that we can create an environment where spiritual boldness can thrive.

Right. Well, I would say it this way too. I mean, folks, you want the culture in which you live to hear the whole council of God, cuz it is the transformative word, right. That all of us need. And there are some forces in our culture that are saying, we'd like to put the church in the basement, uh, and we're not gonna let that happen. All right. Well, there are some threats, uh, you and I both know these threats very, very well, but a lot of our people don't what are some of the, uh, threats to religious Liberty that we are presently facing in our culture?

I probably think the greatest threat right now is what we call Soji, which stands for sexual orientation and gender identity mm-hmm and these laws they're trying to completely remove any distinction between male and female. So ultimately it's about stealing identity and destiny from the next generation. Right. And if I can, I'd like to just share an example about a case that this just really represents what's going on in our country that maybe people aren't aware of.

Okay, go right ahead. Yeah. Keep going. OK.

So this just happens to do with, with public schools. So on Madison, Wisconsin, there was a K through 12 school district, public school district. And they literally had it written in their policies that they wanted to disrupt the gender binary. And, um, I won't go into a lot of detail, but they had an assembly with kindergartners through fifth grade. Okay. They had a transgender teacher on this video that was asking questions. Like, are you a boy? Are you a girl? Some days I'm both. Some days I'm neither. And then after that assembly, any child now, again, this is kindergartners through fifth grade, right. That was confused about their gender. They could meet with their teacher and then together they would put, uh, gender support plan in place. And then they decided whether or not they were going to inform the parents.

Yeah. I just got, I just had a program on my Liberty alert where we're dealing with this kind of thing, where again, parents aren't even being notified, let alone at asking for consent. And these are kindergartners in first grade and second grade. And, and so we're saying enough, you, you don't have that authority in the lives of our children. And let me just piggyback on that for those of you who are listening. Um, this issue is huge because we had a, a, a Lutheran Bishop in Finland. His name was Bishop Johanna PO and, uh, minister, president PVE Rossin who were literally on trial, the state, they were on trial by the state and what was their crime? Their crime was that they taught marriages between a man and a woman. They taught the, that God created people, men and women, which is the first article of our creeds and, and of our scripture.

And, uh, the other one was that sex was to be defined, uh, sexual practice defined within marriage that made them, uh, from the state's point of view criminals. Now, thank goodness they won that case, but folks, that's what I call sex. I call that secular blast for me laws and, and that kind of nonsense is coming. And the sexual orientation stuff you're right. Is the, um, fabric in which that those secular blast women laws will hit the church. Well, you also have some free speech issues. I mean, you know, the Houston five pastors who were, uh, they were, I think it was the mayor that wanted to hear what wanted to read their sermons or something like that. ,

You know, I know that was a couple years ago, but I think

I know

It, it just really highlights. Yes. Uh, the mayor in Houston had put forth with the city council, uh, Soji law. Uh, so sexual orientation and gender identity were now protected classes. And so one of the city officials actually went into a church during a Wednesday night Bible study with a subpoena requiring for all of the sermons, at any communications with, uh, the congregation to take those communications. And then they were gonna review 'em to see if there was anything that went against, uh, this new law and why I think this is so significant is because, uh, this pastor, pastor Castano, one of the things that was amazing is he was actually part of the pastor's council in the city of Houston. There you go. And they realized that if they could get 17,000 signatures, then the council would have to either repeal or put it for a citizen's vote. Right. They got those signatures, they put it and it had to go to a citizen's vote. And 60% of the citizens voted against this new law. And so it had to be repealed. And I wanted to mention that because it just shows the influence that pastors can have when they come together in unity.

Well, and, and again, folks, uh, just to keep this, we're not the ones politicizing these issues. I mean, this is the issue that I run into all the time and say, well, why are you engaging this? It's because it's, it's right at our front door. If they're actually coming into your Bible study to see what you preach and teach in your church, we've got a problem, Houston right,

Right.

No, and I, so, but again, I want people to understand the first amendment is to protect the church from the state. And somehow it's been turned around that it's protecting the state from the church and that's actually a lie. Um, so again, you know, you guys are on this ADF is on this all the time. Tell me, because our people don't, and, and I'm, I'm a church Alliance member. So just so you know, a full disclosure, uh, and I think it's great. How does ADF help protect the church? Because in some ways, I, I think your job in my job are very similar. We're not, we're, we're not the politicizing, the gospel, we're not an evangelism organization. We are a protect the church organization. And I, I say it this way in football terms, you know, when I used to be an evangelist, I was, I was teaching people how to be wide receivers and running backs and quarterbacks. So we could score the touchdown of sharing the gospel. Well, now I'm the offensive line coach. my job is to block properly, make sure things are blocked so that the church has its job. Um, tell us how ADF blocks for us so that we can be free to speak the good news.

Um, if it's outside of religious Liberty, we do have an allied attorney network that we can refer you to that's over 3,500 attorneys across the us. Okay. Uh, the third benefit is just our membership portal, where there's numerous resources in there. As an example, if the media shows up at your front door, uh, we've got a media training in there. Uh, all of these sample documents are in there. And then we break down every case. And then the fourth and final is legal representation when necessary and appropriate all the way to the Supreme court. And so we want churches to feel or pastors to feel empowered so that they can preach these issues from the pulpit and then really in turn, empower their congregations

And folks, uh, go first of all, and think about all those protections again, which basically all it's doing, what ADF is doing is they're, they're keeping the government in its proper place so that you can be the church. And by the way, the church has always been the moral voice in any, in every culture. When we're doing our job in speaking, God's moral voice, as well as his gospel voice, we are blessing the culture in which we live, and we've been given really great freedoms to do that in America. We need to take those very, very seriously. Uh, I think what you just said, um, and we'll get to, this is every ch church at risk kind of thing. When you talk about, uh, making sure that you have the highest religious Liberty, uh, protections in place, what I've seen. And, and I hate to say this, the people that we're up against, and I call them secular status, these are not left wing people versus right wing people.

These are people who believe the church is an nefarious organization and the state should replace everything. And they're on the hill now. Okay. They're out there. Um, they actually look, I think they target what they think is weak. So if they think a church is unprotected, they'll target those kind of churches or those kind of businesses, because that way they can maybe get a foundational case that they win, that then will affect all of us. And what we're finding out is everybody needs to have a certain basic level of protection because that, that begins to then, um, challenge their ability to actually even execute their plan. So I love what you guys do at ADF. I love the kind of wisdom that you do. It's what we call God's preserving work wisdom. It's not about his saving work. It's about blocking nefarious nonsense so that we can actually be free to do that. All right. Well, I, maybe I answered my question, but I hope not. Is every church at risk? I mean, you know, cause there's some people saying, oh, our church is so small. We're, you know, we don't have that many things we don't. Uh, but in some sense you shouldn't think that way for, because every voice of the church matters. I don't care how small or how big you are, but is every church at risk. And why do you think everyone should, um, should make use of this good, uh, resource?

You know, again, Lutherans who are listening in, uh, to this program and, and this, this wisdom's for everybody, but I'm just saying to, to, um, those of our congregation, two of the fundamental cases, two of the P the, the, the cases that set president ho Tabor in Michigan, that set the religious exemption, uh, foundational case to protect your ability to hire and fire people, uh, who are in line with our teaching. And then also Trinity in Missouri, those are foundational cases, went all the way to the Supreme court. And ho Taber was a tiny little place. I interviewed the, I interviewed the, uh, uh, principal, uh, who was throughout that case. And she said even years after we won, uh, I was walking in a daze because it was just so overwhelming. Well, it's the kind of resources that, you know, groups like ADF bring to these things that allow, uh, people like Jose Taber and churches like Jose Taber, not to walk alone into this, this abyss, if you will.

And it was a scary thing to be, she said to be, uh, basically you're the case before the Supreme court. What if we lose? She said, you know, what have we lost? Um, so again, you're right. Every church. And I also want to just chime in on that with Jack Phillips, um, folks I've met Jack Phillips. And in fact, I met him at an ADF event with you guys, right? Yeah. But I've been to his store and all that. I think he was targeted cuz they thought he would roll over. I really believe that. I think, and then this here's this little guy and basically most loving guy, right. Will sell you anything. He's not gonna discriminate. But if someone says, well, make a, a penis cake or something like he's no, I'm not gonna do that. Or make a swastika cake. I'm not gonna do that. Uh, or make a cake for our gay wedding. Well, I, I that's against my conscience, but God bless you guys. You know, that's who Jack Phillips is. And like you said, he's been litigated even though he keeps winning, but it's, it is destroying. They they're trying to destroy his life. Right.

Let me, let me share one thing real quick, where your listeners can be praying for. So we have another case in Colorado, 3, 3, 3 0 3, creative Lori Smith. She makes custom wedding websites. Here's the key thing about this case, right? So she believes marriage between a man and a woman. Anybody can have their beliefs, but she also wants to, uh, be able to live out of her conscience. Well, in this ruling basically, uh, what the ninth circuit or the 10th circuit said to her is that as an expression increases in uniqueness, right? So these are, these are custom wedding websites, right? Then first amendment rights decrease. And that's why we have to stand for truth wow. In this country. And that case is gonna come before the Supreme court this fall. And so that is something people can be praying for because whatever the ruling is for her, that's also gonna affect Jack Phillips

And to set on set more precedent. Hey folks, again, when you talk about these issues, remember even with the, the, uh, Obergefell case, uh, the, the homeless, the gay wedding case, if you will. Here's our, here's what our argument was before the Supreme court. Um, the state does not grant rights to anybody. It undergirds rights you already have. So why would the state, uh, force men and women to sign a contract called marriage? So the whole case was about what's the state's involvement in marriage, right? Why would they force them limit their rights, take rights away and make them sign a contract called marriage? Here's the simple answer. It's because they're the only, uh, couple that can go to sleep tonight and wake up with a new citizen tomorrow. And the state doesn't wanna raise citizens. That's it. And our argument was if they can't, if the state cannot limit its nefarious activity to a man and a woman, it should get out of the whole marriage business.

And by the way, there are even gay activists who agree with that. Yeah. Okay. So again, to see the state now using marriage as a club to destroy people's lives, that should be, that should make everyone angry in our culture, uh, today. So, and well, I guess we get back to culture because this is the kind of thing. When you see someone like a Baral Stutzman, who is just this wonderful grandmother being bankrupted again by the state, because she believes in marriage and she, and she was actually a loving, caring person who was adored by everyone in her community. Yeah. Including the people who asked, you know, the, the gay couple asked, uh, her to do their wedding. It just, it's shocking to me that people of Goodwill of all, uh, beliefs don't think this is state encroachment, where it doesn't belong. So how do we continue to deal with this? I, I know you, you say, how do we change the culture? Um, but how do we also, uh, erect barriers that protect the church and protect citizens of Goodwill? I mean, maybe that's where we start.

I think that's, um, that it probably is the question. This really is about the future of freedom in our country. Mm-hmm, , you know, religious Liberty, religious freedom protects all, um, we have five generational wins that we're standing for. Right. And a generational win.

Yeah. Explain what a generational win is because that is a big deal. And I think we even had another good case come down today about the main case. I think we won six to three, but what is a generational win?

Okay. A generational win changes, law and culture. So a great example of this is homeschooling 25 years ago, homeschooling wasn't thought of as a viable option and it wasn't legal in every state. Now look at it today. Right, right. Legal in every state, in a viable option. So we a generational win changes, law and culture. So there are five generational wins that we're standing for. And so that's, uh, safeguarding life, right? Mm-hmm so this, this decision that's gonna come down about Roe. We, everybody knows about that case, but that's huge, uh, defending religious Liberty, right. Securing free speech. One of the things that is so important, you mentioned protecting marriage and family. Right. And then last is guaranteeing parental rights. Parents have the right to direct the education of their children.

Correct. Yeah.

And that's what we're standing for.

And like you said, when we, when we put down those markers in society, um, good things happen for everybody, right? This isn't just doing it so that the church is protected. This is, these are the kind of things. And folks, you can argue this, uh, strong families are good for society, strong, uh, parental choice. And education is great. I mean, black, uh, Hispanic, white, everybody wants it. Then why aren't we laying down that marker and giving freedom of choice in education, access to good education for everybody. Uh, and ADF is actually saying, we're gonna lay these markers down legally. Um, so is it going well, , let us know.

Well, it's a little challenging, I think in summarizing, right? The most important thing is the gospel still transforms. It saves. Right. And it changes lives. And so the reason that we're doing this is because the, the transformative saving message of the gospel of Jesus Christ

Mm-hmm . Yeah, absolutely. And, and I'm just, uh, close with this thought too. Um, you know, Jesus, doesn't, we're not here ultimately to transform culture. We're here to transform lives. And when you transform lives, that transforms neighborhoods, transforms families, neighborhoods, and eventually culture one at a time, we get that. Um, but again, folks in concerning these cultural issues, whether we win the culture war or lose the culture war, I'm not concerned about that. I'm in, I'm concerned whether we engage it that's good. God is always engaging every culture to preserve the culture so that he can proclaim his salvation of all people. And we understand that that's God at work. And since he's at work, we get to be at work with him. I just wanna stay. I, I think you guys do a great job. ADF does an incredible job, uh, in terms of protecting the public space of the church. So it can be a public church for the sake of the gospel. But I think what you're talking about Sherry is you want to get churches to start to see that they have a role, uh, to be part of that protection work as well. And that's what your church Alliance is all about. So I just want to give you that, that final plug about that. That's a really big thing too, is well

Said. Absolutely well said, Greg.

Well, um, one of our attorneys, we had a devotion one time and he shared this analogy of how ADF and the church works together. And I just love it. So I'll close with that. Um, I'm sure everyone's familiar with the Titanic. Well, when it hit the iceberg, right, there was only so much time that the rescue workers or the crew had to get passengers off the ship and into the lifeboats. Right, right, right. Well, there were 24 engineers down below and their job was to keep the lights and the communication systems going. So if you think about that right now, the church is going to be doing the work of the rescue, right? Rescuing people with a salvation message and ADF it's our job to keep the lights on so that work can go forth.

We'll keep the lights on with you. Thank you, Sharon, for being with us today.

Thank you for listening to this broadcast of engaging truth. Be sure to join us each week at this time, to help support our ministry, contact evangelical life ministries, post office box 5 68, Cypress, Texas 77, 410. Or visit our website@elmhouston.org, or find us on Facebook at evangelical life ministries. Thank you.