Who are we and how do create our identities? The stories we tell ourselves about who we are influence who we believe ourselves to be, so why aren't we telling ourselves better stories?

Learn more about how to think like an artist on The Artist's Forge, and join our growing community of artists on Facebook.

Want to know more about the hosts?

Nicole York

Matt Stagliano

Cat Ford-Coates

Bassam Sabbagh

Bekka Bjorke

Hi, this is Matt Stagliano and thanks for being

part of the artists Forge. We're a community of creatives who

help each other think like an artist. By discussing creativity

as a process instead of a skill or a talent. We believe everyone

has what it takes to create something amazing. We just need

some encouragement and inspiration along the way. What

you're about to hear is a live recording of one of our daily

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I encourage you to join our private Facebook group or visit

us on the web at the artist forge COMM Now on to the show.

Alright, Joe, it's time. It's time to say good

morning. And welcome to Morning walk with the artists Forge. My

name is Nicole York, I'm going to be your host this morning.

Today we are talking about something a little esoteric and

nebulous. It should be a really interesting conversation. I'm

hoping that we'll have a great one today. And hopefully the

friends in the audience today will want to come up and chat

with us. Because yesterday, as I was working on the blog for the

most recent podcast that's up on the artists FORGE website, I

found a great little cover image that had a neon sign that said,

we are all stories. And I thought yeah, we are except it

feels like there's something more than that. And so I wrote

something up real quick. That said, all we are is stories and

stardust. And the thought process behind that. We've

talked about it lots of times. But the thought process behind

that is a question about what we really are. I mean, if I were to

ask you, who you are, you wouldn't necessarily give me

your physical statistics, right? If I were to say, Matt, who are

you, you wouldn't say well, I am a dark haired man. Okay, that

doesn't really tell me much. Most of us connect who we are,

to the stories that we've told ourselves, about ourselves,

about our past about our memories about our experiences.

And those stories become, in a way, the the software design of

our personalities of our ID, right of our ego of who we

believe we are on the inside. And most of the time, these

things are built. And these stories get told, without much

input from us. From the time that we're little. We're

surrounded by environmental factors that influence how we

think we're surrounded by our tribe, our family, our friends,

our local communities, are specialty communities if we do

things like play sports, and all of those people have some

influence over the stories that we tell ourselves about who we

are. But hopefully, we get to a point in our lives, where we

start to take a little bit more control over those stories. We

don't just allow the narrative to pop up and be influenced by

everything that's going on around us, we take a little bit

of control, and shift that narrative to become the version

of ourselves that we want to be. And it's been said that the

event is less important than the story we tell ourselves about

it. And you can see that really clearly when you take multiple

people have them experience the exact same thing. And they come

away with entirely different stories about it. If you were to

have us all bungee jump, some of us would be like, this was the

best experience of my life. I was scared, I pushed past my

fear. I know that I could do anything. It was a rush. Others

of us be like that is the most terrifying thing that's ever

happened to me. And I'm never going near height ever, ever

again. So a big part of this, of course is influenced by our

genetics are stardust, right? And it's pretty cool to think

about the fact that what makes us up as physical creatures is

the same thing that is spinning through the galaxy. creating

worlds, right? So we're this really interesting combination

of physical and you could say spiritual, you could say

supernatural really all just depends on what kind of framing

you like. But

once we know that, and once we think about the fact that at our

core, we really are who we tell ourselves, we are all of a

sudden that opens up, man everything. So I'm really

interested to talk about how do we get to the core of our

identity, how we influence our thoughts on the things that

happen to us, because particularly right now, looking

at the way people are responding To the current situation, the

way things have been incredibly divisive friends and family

really having big breaks in their bonds, is difficult to

watch, it's difficult to see. And so much of that comes from

the lens through which we view the world. And of course, that

lens is built by our experiences and the stories we tell

ourselves about them. So, as artists, this is a really cool

area for us to explore. Partly because it is so nebulous, but

also because no one has access to our insides, but us, which

means we're the only one who can tell these stories that make us

who we are. So, so I realize this is kind of a little bit as

Tarek and a little bit nebulous, but I wanted to bring it up and

just see what everybody thought and how we think about these

things, individually, and then also kind of as a community. So

if you had any thing popped into your head, as I was rambling

away, I would love to hear I love to hear it.

It's it's like, it's like you design this whole

hour for me. I'm not gonna go on some big long soliloquy about

this, but I love this I love I love getting people to think

about essentially consciousness, right, and the difference

between the physical world and the metaphysical world. And the

way that I've always kind of thought of it is, there was a

stick with me here. There's that scene in Star Wars, where Obi

Wan and Luke are looking over most Isley and is like, this is

the most vile hive of scum and villainy, right, something to

that effect. And I think of it like that you can stay in this

small little town surrounded by, you know, all of this negative

emotion and negative feeling. And you can sit there in the

cantina. And you can order your drinks and just kind of stew in

negativity and all the stuff that's happening around you. And

it's all noise and it's all pollution. Or you can get up

outside of the city, sit on a mountaintop, and see how clear

things really are. And that's what happens when you start

thinking about who you are rather than where you fit.

Right? Because they're two different things, who you are,

transcends everything. And it transcends what people think

about you where you are in your life, what you've done. But if

you stay stuck and grounded in what other people think, and

what's going on around you, and not staying core to who you are

as a person, then growth is impossible. Clarity is

impossible. peace and tranquility is impossible. And

so when I started on my particular journey of trying to

figure out alright, what's the difference between me capital

and me, and this MEATBAG that I live in, I had to start asking

some really hard questions. And I had to separate myself from a

lot of what was happening around me, I had to get myself out of

that canteen out of that village out of that negativity and get

up on to, you know, a higher, higher point, a higher vantage

point that comes with a lot of work, of trying to quiet the

mind of trying to separate yourself from some old beliefs

of just trying to figure out what those old beliefs are. And

once we can get there, then the work really starts on self

satisfaction on knowing who you are on understanding what it is

that you bring to the world. But I love the fact that you started

with you know that we're all Stardust, because it's

essentially it, the consciousness question has not

been solved, we can hint around it, but it hasn't been solved.

So that's just kind of the way that I've looked at all of this,

you can stay down in that polluted area, or you can rise

above it. But knowing that rising above it, you could very

well be alone. Or it could be a lonely journey, until you find

those people around you that are also at the mountaintop, and you

get to hang out with them. And that's really cool. So I hope

that that kind of brought a little bit of light to what I

think about. What do you think about that, Nicole?

I actually really love that. And I think it's so

interesting to think about the fact that where we stand and our

kind of relative position has such an influence on what we

see, and what we perceive. And I know it's been quite a while

since we've had this conversation But we talked

months and months ago about the fact that we are essentially

living in a VR headset, right? Your brain doesn't have access

to things out outside of your brain, it's basically an organ,

it's in a little black box. And it has no outside access except

its ability to interpret electrical signals. And that

interpretation is highly dependent upon us. And upon our,

our, our relative position and, and bringing relativity into it

is really interesting, because, you know, if you're standing at

a train station watching a train go by, versus if you're on the

train, moving down, I mean, those, those two different

positions give you a different understanding of the environment

that you're in. And so often, I think you're right, that we do

get really stuck, where we're at, and we don't always take the

trouble to bring ourselves to the mountaintop or to somewhere

where we really can get a good view of what's going on and see

a little bit more clearly. And recognizing the role that that

plays in the stories that we tell ourselves. I, I've

encouraged people to travel kind of as often as I can. I think

that being able to get outside of where you currently live and

where most of your experiences has been can be so incredibly

formative for who you are as a person, because it challenges

the things that you take for granted, it challenges that

position that you that you grew up in the kind of the kind of

factory settings and your headset, right, that were built

from the time you were little without much influence from you.

So I love that idea of really, first recognizing that we are

malleable. And I know we've talked about that before, but we

don't ever have to stay the person that we are right now. We

get to change we get to choose. And knowing that and then

recognizing the difference in your position, and how you view

the world can change who you are. And so much of that is

under your control, which for me is really incredibly comforting.

To be quite honest.

Me pressing buttons and shifting around

sorry about that. Yeah, you know, the the Vantage Point

thing, the relativity if you want it's it's really

interesting when you can separate yourself and stand back

and look at both vantage points, be aware of both vantage points,

right? Am I on the train? Or am I observing the train, for

example, you understand that everything around you is

different. And all it is is perception, right? We perceive

the environment around us in a certain way, based on our own

beliefs on the beliefs of others on the environmental factors, we

perceive where we are and what we're doing, as you know, a

movie, it's the VR headset that you were talking about. And that

perception can change depending on where you are, who you're

around, or what you're doing. And with that understanding

comes, oh, I can change my reality. Anytime I want, I can

get on the train, I can get off the train, I can look at it from

this, you know, vantage point, I can hang around with these

people, whatever it is. But I love the fact that we all have

this power to be able to change that vantage point, anytime we

want. There is no one holding us down. Hopefully, you're not in a

closet somewhere listening to this. But, you know, no one

holds us down or holds us back except for ourselves in our

perception of where we are and what we're doing in our own

limitations in the own box that we're in of a meat bag that

we're in all of these things, our perceptions. And most of the

time, we're too cluttered or thinking too hard about what's

right in front of us to step back and look at all the options

that we really have the options of the ways that we want to live

our life or treat others or be with people or build our careers

or treat our bodies. Right, we have the ability to change that

anytime we want. But a lot of times you have to step back and

see the different options in front of you before you can

choose one. A lot of times that's where the confusion

happens is we don't give ourselves that opportunity, that

quiet mind to observe a lot of that.

Yeah, agreed. And I think I have heard this

attributed to Einstein. I don't know if it's true or not. But

there's this quote attributed to him. That's, you know, the most

important decision you can make is whether you live in a

friendly or a hostile universe and to couch that in the terms

that it's your decision is just really incredible to me, because

of course it does. It does insinuate that there's this idea

of kind of radical responsibility, right and a lot

of people will push back against that. because they recognize the

truth of bad situations, right. And the last thing I would want

is for anybody to think that this conversation means that the

truth or the the experience of situations, has no effect. Like,

when you go through difficult things, you absolutely respond

to those situations. And nobody is trying to say that the

situation itself is good or bad. But so much of what we take away

from those things, is going to depend upon how we see them, and

where we view them from, what stories we choose to tell

ourselves. And when we repeat things to ourselves over and

over, they really do become the framework that we use to see

everything else. And so if I were, you know, what you can use

even just a home, your home, as an example, somebody who has

grown up and mansions all over the world would probably see my

house, really kind of pathetic. And somebody else who never got

to live in middle America, suburbia, would probably see my

house is a pretty outstanding place to live. And the house

didn't change just the lens through which you view it

change. And we have control over that, even though it doesn't

seem like we do, we get to tell ourselves the things that we

believe to be true and repeat them often enough that they

become part of the programming. And a really great example of

this is my mom, I love my mom's so much. But she has certain

things that she very much, you know, she clings on to them. And

so one of those things is, she really, she hates the southwest.

She hates the southwest. She doesn't like Colorado. She's a

Washingtonian, she wants, you know, lots of trees, and she

wants ferns, and she wants lots of green things. But she will

complain about the rain, and she will complain about not being

able to go outside for half the year. And when she comes to

visit me, she cannot bring herself to allow that love of

all the green stuff to be what it is and still find beauty. And

other things. For her. Being able to find the beauty at home

means that other things can't compare. Not that they can be

beautiful on their own. And, for me, having lived in a lot of

different places, I've done some of the work because I don't get

to leave here. I'm here for now, I'm here until the foreseeable

future, unless I want to be miserable, I need to find a way

to look at what I've got around me as something beautiful to be

enjoyed. And that's a choice I get to make. Because I don't get

to change my physical perspective. But I can change

the lens that I'm using to see things. And so that's another

way that maybe we can think about this whole question of

asking ourselves, who we are and how we influence who we are and

how we see everything around us. And it's a lot of work. I mean,

that's it's not as if you can just go well, I decide to be

happy now. You do have to work at it doesn't happen overnight.

But it is possible, which means that the things about myself

that I don't love, don't have to stay that way. I can change

them. And if I'm in a circumstance I can't get out of

I can change the way I think of it.

So I think a smaller example of this. I so

I'm out in in Arizona right now. And I met up with a photographer

yesterday. And she has a studio here. And she was photographed

by another photographer the day before, in her studio by

somebody who had never been there before. And she just kept

going on and on about what not on and on. But like really

remarkably impacted her, and how differently that photographer

used the space. And she said it just opened up my eyes to like

so much other possibility just watching somebody else work in

the space. And I realized, like, there's so much more I can do in

here and create for people, if I just look at things a little bit

differently, right. And so that perspective is really how we

shift and make those choices and develop those stories. You know,

you learn to do something one way and that's just the way it's

done. And that's just how you do things. And that's also how you

develop a style to write like consistency. And then when you

realize like, oh, I can break these rules and create a

different story you know, choose your own adventure. Sure, then

that's when things start to evolve into shift. The same is

true for life and relationships and everything else. How you

look at it, is what determines what that is for you.

Oh, man, that's so true. And it's it's that's such

an interesting example as well, cat because I think the way that

that relates to how we think about ourselves, we just take so

much of this stuff for granted, right, just like you're the

photographer you met in her studio, she kind of took it for

granted that this is just the way that this space works. And

it's not until you have an opportunity to change your

perspective that you're able to see that it doesn't have to be

that way. And I think that's so true for us, as well, for our

view of who we are, sometimes it takes some extraordinary

circumstance for us to be able to see that we can change that

and affects that. And hopefully, this conversation kind of opens

up those doors a little bit for folks. And lets them take a

glimpse at that. Because if all I am is stories in Stardust,

man, I want to tell myself the best stories I can about who I

am and who I can be. And I don't always have the chance to have

another photographer come in, right? But maybe, maybe even a

conversation like this is a catalyst to let people start

opening those doors and asking questions.

So I don't know if I've had enough coffee, to talk

philosophy at 6am. But my question here is kind of where

where's that limit? On perception? And how do we

internalize that? I suppose so like if you if you walk like a

duck quacks like a duck, you look like a duck. But you say

that you are an eagle? Which one are you?

I guess it depends on how long it takes for you

saying you're an eagle to affect the way you behave.

And then comes the issue of if you say that you're

an eagle, and you tell yourself you're an eagle for years and

years and years. And perhaps you even start to act like an eagle,

but you still look like a duck. And that's how the rest of the

world perceives you is as a duck. Where, what how, like,

which perception is reality? Right? I mean, if you think of

someone who is clinically insane, right? There's kind of

this classic mantra that if you're actually insane, you

don't know that you're insane. Because your reality to you is

as real, as everyone else's reality is to them. So how does

that reality actually define how we function in a world full of

other people, because we can tell ourselves the most

wonderful things about ourselves and see this ourselves growing

in whatever fantastic direction, but if we aren't actually

creating that growth in ways perceivable to other people, is

it real?

So I think that's a really, oh, go ahead.

I think it is real, right? Like, it's kind of

like when you shift how you eat, right? You're like, God, I can't

keep eating all of this damn garbage anymore, right. And so

you start just trying to eat healthier, right? eating more

whole foods and kind of processing and set it up. And

then all of a sudden, like, your energy levels shift, right? Like

the physical pieces start to, to affect you. And so then you

start making you want to make other choices that are in your

best interest. I think the same is true. Like, okay, I'm a

photographer. When I started as a quote, unquote, photographer,

like I was not a photographer, right. But I, because I was

identifying there, I was able to make choices and possibilities

opened up to me to walk down the path of becoming and stepping

into that. So I might not look like a fucking Eagle. But at the

end of the day, if I behave like an eagle, and I fly, right,

like, then eventually I become even if the rest of the world

doesn't perceive me that way.

I think that's such an interesting question. And a

great way to challenge this line of thinking, and I agree with

what you said, Kat, and I think, I think the end question really

becomes, does thinking this way, improve your life? To make your

life better? Does it make you happier? Does it get you closer

to your goals? Does it make you know the day to day way that you

live better? And if me telling myself that I'm an eagle, even

if other people see me as a duck, if me telling myself that

makes me feel more powerful in my day to day life makes me feel

more capable? Makes me feel like I can take chances I wouldn't

have taken before and step up into the power of believing that

about myself, then it doesn't really matter. So much how other

people perceive me because my life is better because of the

way that I think. Now I do. I do agree, though, that at some

point you do kind of run up against the limit of, of that

possibility when you disagree deeply, right? With, with the

perception that people have a view or when they disagree

deeply with your perception of yourself. Because I might

believe myself to be the best singer that ever existed in the

world that I show up on American Idol and embarrass myself.

Right? So that's, I mean, there's, there's some legitimate

things there that we have to look at and ask ourselves, you

know, how, how the, I don't want to call it necessarily objective

reality, but how the objective realities become boundaries that

we have to hit. And even then, how can we maybe I can't

necessarily believe myself to be a Grammy winner. But maybe I can

tell myself that despite what other people think singing is a

joy for me. And I don't need to let their the way that they

think or feel about it, stop me from loving what I do. So maybe

there are some limits. But I don't think that those limits

necessarily invalidate our ability to affect positive

change by changing the way we think, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, totally. And I don't especially have a strong

opinion, either way. And I do absolutely think that there is

power in the way that you speak to yourself and the way that you

self identify, and how that can shape who you are as a person,

like, Absolutely 100%, definitely. My initial thought,

from the beginning of the conversation kind of went to

this good versus evil scenario of like, when, when do the

things that you say and identify with, stop being true in that

larger objective reality? But so just just a question there?

No, I think it's a good one, it's a good challenge

to to ask yourself, because, of course of them. What's that

saying your your your rights, and where somebody else's rights

begin. And that's kind of true for the reality that we live in

as well. Because other people get to define the edges of our

reality. And the way that they treat us and respond to us,

obviously, really makes a difference in what we're capable

of what we can do all of those things. So it's, I think it's a

super legitimate question to ask. So I noticed that we had

when raise his hand, Carol had her hand up as well, I just

didn't get a chance to grab her. So Nicole. Yeah,

before we jump over to win, I just wanted to

challenge you on something you just said. Which was, others get

to kind of define what our reality looks like. And forgive

me if I misquoted you right there. But it just it snapped me

out of a little bit of a daze. And I don't think that's true at

all. I don't think anybody gets to define the reality that we're

in, I think we all have our own separate realities. And by kind

of circling around each other, it creates this fabric of where

we live, right. But it's up to us to create the reality that we

want. And there was a quote that I heard yesterday, it was the

first time I'd heard it, it said, you'll stop thinking and

caring so much about what other people think of you, when you

realize how seldom they do. Right? So what I took from that

is, you know, yeah, we're in this terial kind of reality, but

what we shaped for ourselves, is paramount to anybody else.

That's not saying like you, you know, you violate someone's

rights isn't what I'm saying. But I don't think anybody gets

to choose what reality we're in, regardless of where we are. It's

a hard concept to wrap your head around. But I really don't give

a shit what anybody thinks about me. In theory, because because

it's a struggle every day, right? We are influenced by

everybody else around us. And we are influenced and we try to be

the best people that we can be. And you know, there is some

shaping that happens there. But the goal is to not care about

any any of that. And just live the reality that you want to

live. You want to be an eagle even though you got duck

feathers fly high Sr, right? But if, if you just let other people

make you think you're a duck, then you're not going to go

anywhere. You've got to break that cycle a little bit, but

that's the only thing I wanted to push back gently on. But

yeah, I'd love to hear what what winning Carol have to say.

Yeah, I'm gonna respond to that really quickly.

Yeah, I might have said I don't actually remember what I said.

If I said that other people get to define our reality, that's

not necessarily what I meant. But we do exist in common

spaces, right. And so we both agree that the sky is blue, and

the pavement is hard, and all of these things, and it doesn't

matter how much I believe pavement is soft, it's a

physical effect on my body, it's still going to be one that I

don't want to have to deal with if I fall on it. So there are

some kind of and that's what I think Becca's question is such a

great one is because there are some limits somewhere. And you

know, my belief in my my evilness is going to run up

against a barrier eventually, when I try to do something of

which other people do not believe I'm capable, and will

not make allowances for if that makes any sense. Not to say that

I shouldn't still try to grab on to that and hold it in as many

ways as possible. But at some point, there is there is some

limit some boundaries somewhere. And that question, you know,

Becker's question like where? How do we find that? And how do

we internalize it, recognizing that we absolutely have

influence over who we are, what we believe the reality we exist

in, but there there are some kind of boundaries. I'm

definitely not floating into space, no matter how much I

believe I was going to. So how do we, how do we marry those

things together, right, and be able to affect that positive

change through the way that we think and the stories that we

tell ourselves about who we are, while also recognizing that

there are some limitations on how far that's going to be able

to take us if that makes sense.

Yeah, I need to chime in. And I'm sorry for

making women Carol Wait, but I want to kind of gently push back

on back pressure, and back and forth, and back and forth.

Because although I agree that we, we have the right to do

whatever we want, we don't need to be doing what other people

want us to do, and so on and so forth. But I don't believe we

should totally dissociate ourselves. From other people's

opinion. Because we are social animals, we do live in the same

space as, as Nicole just said, and a lot of the feedback that

we get about other people's, both our personality and how

we're like does come from other people. And we have a choice of

doing whatever we want with that feedback. But we can live in a

bubble and believe certain things about us and tell

ourselves story. But it's so valuable to get feedback from

others in in social business, whatever context that would

allow us to grow and recognize and maybe hit us in the face

once in a while. I remember I had an epiphany about I don't

know, maybe 10 years ago when I was working and, and I got

direct feedback from to the two highest guys in the company, the

CEO, and, and one of the guys that worked for him. And it was

jarring feedback about my personality and what they

perceive in me. And I was totally oblivious to it. And it

kind of it was a moment that define my improvement plan going

forward. Because it hit me in the face. And it was so obvious.

And it's and then I chose that I don't want to be that way. And I

still struggle with it, though today as much as I'm familiar

with it. So all I'm trying to say is that, you know, we can't

totally isolate ourselves and separate themselves from self

from she'd back in what other people's perception because it

is a form of growth. And it is a form of of actionable feedback.

To complicate that even further, but some because

that's an excellent point. That's kind of the crux of the

problem, right? At what point do we even cease to exist outside

of other people's perceptions of us even? I don't know if you

guys have seen the movie Coco. It's a beautiful animated movie,

if you haven't seen it and want to go cry your eyes out, go

watch it. But anyway, a large aspect of this movie is that

even in the afterlife, your your spirit will cease to exist what

no one in the living world even remembers you anymore. And I

mean, a large part of that is true. I mean, does our legacy

exist? If no one remembers it? Does our personality and our

identity and our self even exist? If no one is there to

perceive it? To me, and if we were complicating things

further, and you know, walking like a duck quacking like a duck

looking like a duck telling ourselves or an eagle, but

everyone else is perceiving us as a bluebird, then well, I

mean, what does that do for identity? So that level of

perception by other people, we're never going to fully know

how we are perceived by other every other person in the world.

We just never going to know that. So we're never going to

know exactly what kind of bird that people truly see us as and

that the world truly sees us as it's complicated.

And then I guess, that comes to the question to

have does their opinion perception actually even alter

our reality? Does it come in contact? Does it change how we

live and how we affect our environment, who we are and all

those things. So I want to make sure win has a chance to share

and then Carol. And we have some other hands up as well, we're

going to grab Yeah. So when please go ahead.

I'd like to revisit the duck and Eagle analogy a little

bit. And reference a couple of one one is a book and it's a

piece of music. But first of all, if you are a duck, who

thinks you're an eagle, you at the very least, be the biggest,

baddest duck in the universe, you will be the duck that flies

the highest flies the fastest, the fiercest duck the world has

ever seen. And if your perception is that of an eagle,

and their perception is only that of a powerful duck, it

still sets you apart from the rest of the ducks. The pieces

that referenced this whole thing that we're talking about, if

you've ever read the book, Jonathan Livingston Seagull, you

can understand that the perception of who you are, is

most of what you are. And if you've ever listened to any of

Harry cheapens music, when you brought up being a singer,

Nikola drove that home to me that every singer has a stage on

which he can perform, no matter if you are Caruso, or the

Biggest Loser at the karaoke bar. Every singer has his has a

song to sing. And whether you have the technical ability,

well, that's something you can learn. You know, I made my

living as a singer for a while I'm not the world's best, I'm

adequate. But there's a stage for me to perform on. And if I

need only to find that stage, to be the best singer those people

have heard today. And that's enough for me. I am the best

photographer that my clients have been to today. And I try my

best to be the best photographer I can be every day. And that has

proved that has been a path to success for me, the striving for

excellence the striving for a duck to be an eagle you know the

duck is going to find that No he can't fly as high can't see as

well he can't he certainly can't kill a rabbit for lunch. But he

can be the duck that flies the highest. The duck that is the

strongest minded the duck that other ducks look up to. And in

his own little world, he can be the boss duck of the pond. And

at this successful at it. And the whatever mindset you bring

to who you are is a very large part of who you will be

perceived as. And so the duck that thinks he's an eagle has an

advantage over the other ducks at least that's the way I see

it. Hopefully that made a little bit of sense.

I love that when and I like this idea. And I know

this is this is something I've said before but you know your

thoughts lead to your beliefs, your beliefs lead to your

actions, your actions lead to your destiny there's a million

different quotes that are the same the different ways to say

the same thing. But what it comes down to is what you tell

yourself you believe what you believe you become and what you

become affects the way other people perceive you. And when

they perceive you that way and you believe it to be true of

yourself all of a sudden now there is power in that power to

move forward affect change all of those good things so I have

this picture in my head now this duck I gotta be carry that with

me for the rest of the day. Carol want to hear from you. And

I keep trying to bring up bring you up curry but for some reason

it's just not working for me. Maybe one of the other mods can

grab you, Carol, please go ahead.

Sure, I'm just briefly sometimes when you can't

pull people up if they leave the room and come back, it works.

I've seen that in other rooms. Anyway What I was going to talk

about is the change of perception. Like if like, say, a

juvenile offender, if they would simply rather than sentence them

to all these years in prison, or whatever, have them spend a week

there, and then when they leave, they will, their change of

perception of, of what they're getting themselves into, would

totally affect their behavior. And then it makes me think about

the secret millionaire, it was a show, man, I loved it, because

it was people that were millionaires that were kind of

sentenced to live in this space that someone else did with the

amount of means that they had, and to watch their eyes open as

to, you know, they started out well, I don't have enough money

here to do my nails this week, you know, as opposed to oh, my

god, I can't feed my baby, pay my bills, or, you know, see the

doctor. And, and there's roaches, you know, I just

thought, the eye opening experience for them to get out

of out of their world and see this world that exists every

day, they pass by every day, and they don't have a clue about was

really interesting. And then lastly, I got to live in England

for four years. And it was eye opening to me because I learned

so much about politics, history and geography that I didn't know

before. And it occurred to me, if there's a war going on in the

state next to you, you're not only gonna have an opinion about

it, you're going to know everything about what has

happened before, and be active in, you know, what, what the

stakes are with with that situation? So, yeah, I'm I don't

know how to apply that to me at this point. Because I think I do

need to change your perception. I? I don't know. But it's it's

kind of got me thinking a little bit. Thanks. I'm done.

Her right, please go ahead.

Hi, guys. Can you hear me?

Yep, we gotcha.

Okay, so I, I think this is a very interesting

conversation. For me, I tend to think that most things in life,

there's some sort of balance. And I definitely feel like

there's room to have multiple realities coexist, right? If, if

you're in your hometown, for example, you might be a

different person, because of the way everyone perceives you in

your hometown. But you you go to college, and if we take like, a

sports analogy, you know, you're a big, big person on campus,

you're a different, your reality is different in that space. So

you can be can be a fish somewhere else. So it's about

like finding the right balance, being constantly aware of what

surroundings you're in, and how to adapt. That's around.

That's a great observation. And I think you've

kind of brought up the crux of Becker's question and where

those were our perception of who we are and other people's

understanding of who we are collide. And the way that we

respond to other people's perceptions of us. I mean, I

think you're absolutely right. It's really weird for me, when I

will meet somebody who has been following my work for a while,

and in their mind, they've built up a picture of who I am. And if

that doesn't align with what I believe to be true about myself,

when they talk to me, it's incredibly uncomfortable,

because in their head, they've kind of they've pedestal eyes to

me a little bit. And of course, I don't see myself that way. So

it's really difficult to make those realities match one

another. And once we've gone off and experienced what it's like

to be an eagle, and we go back home, and everybody sees this as

a duck. Those those two realities really do clash. So

it's, it's interesting to ask ourselves, with those multiple

realities and versions of ourselves existing, what do we

do? How, like, what do we do about those things? Do we hold

on to what we believe to be true about ourselves or like the

psalm mentioned? Do we choose to say, you know, here's people I

respect and this is what they perceive about me. And so there

is something that going on that allowed that perception to

happen? Do I want to address that? And believe that to be

true? Or do I want to deal with the consequences of not

addressing it? And whatever that means for those people? And I

have a, you know, a great example of that if you have you

ever had a disagreement with a friend, and in your position,

you believe you've been completely reasonable. And from

their position, their response to you is that that was an

unreasonable thing to do. You have several options there. But

I think one of the most important ones is to recognize

that their response to you is only in part, to what you've

done. The other part of their response is going to be whatever

they've been through that day, and their beliefs and all of

those other things. So there's a there's a overlap between the

reality we we perceive, and then how that reality affects other

people and comes back to us. So it's, it's an interesting one,

like it sisal is up with us as well. sissala, what are you

thinking?

Well, something can reset, how we are perceived

differently in different spaces. Now, that is something that, to

me is incredibly interesting, because I'm bilingual, and I

live in a different country from which I was born. So, and I

often talk about this with people back home and hear that

my humor is different in Danish, my, my, the way I I act, and

talk and speak, and all these different things are different,

depending on which language I'm speaking and where I am, in the

current moment. And interestingly enough, I think,

when I came here, I was very fragile in the sense of myself,

perception was fragile. So I was very easily influenced by the

world around me. So suddenly, instead of coming, and having

this very strong idea of who I am, and what I'm going to do, I

let myself be influenced by how people perceive me and how I

thought I needed to be perceived to achieve success. So to me,

it's incredibly interesting to see how all these different

factors in our lives such as language, or location, culture,

influence how we are perceived, I can often frankly, when I say

something that isn't necessarily common around here, I can say,

Oh, I'm Scandinavian. And people are like, oh, right, she's

Scandinavian. That's why That's okay, you're Scandinavian. So we

can use? No, we can, we can use the idea that other people have

around certain things like being a Scandinavian. And we can use

that to change and shape how people see us. And I think that

if you become aware of who you are, and who you want to be, and

you your own eagerness, shines through, within yourself, you're

you have a strong awareness of that, then you can go and I

wouldn't call it play, but you can you can work on how people

perceive you. And you can you can influence how they perceive

you through your language through your body language

through certain things that you know, are influencing them such

as Oh yeah, Scandinavians, that they act like this, they talk

like this, they have this. So I just find it incredibly

interesting, how perception is such a moldable thing, a

moldable way of shaping reality.

This is such an incredibly interesting

conversation, I really, I love being able to explore this and

hear these different points of view because my belief that we

truly are malleable, and that we get to decide and that we get to

alter our perceptions in order to make the world around us look

and feel more like we want it to is something that helps me in my

life. But I love exploring where the end of that is and and where

that butts up against other people's realities. So it is

time for final thoughts. Want to make sure that we we have a

chance to cover all of these things before the end of our

hour? So beginning with my my question and my supposition, all

we are is stories and stardust. How do we take that and

recognize the limitations of that thought but then also make

the most of it?

You know, I think I started Getting in this

hour kind of out there a little bit often left field, and I

completely recognize that. But I think the conversation itself

has been really amazing. I think when it comes to stories and

Stardust, the the way that we shape our own perceptions, the

way we shape our own reality comes down to us. And the the

crux of that being, we have to start asking ourselves the

question, Who am I? What it what is it that I am? And from there,

you get to go down all these tributaries and figure out how

you want to shape your reality, and what you think of people's

perceptions. But you can't just start in the middle of the

movie, and be like, Oh, this is the way it is, apparently, you

really do have to start asking yourself those deep questions,

that's going to be different for everybody. So I think it all

starts there. And this is why we're all different. This is why

we all have these thoughts. And it's a wonderful thing. But you

have to ask those questions first, before you can come to

any answers, and even be able to discuss this, this sort of thing

with any FIRFER. So I appreciate everything that everybody said,

because they've all been asking themselves those questions, it's

great.

I think that, you know, determining how it is

that that you show up in the world, and understanding that

you get to determine, you know, where where those perceptions

start. So I was with the same group of kids growing up from

kindergarten into high school. And I started going to a

performing arts high school where I was half day with at one

school, and then we would bus over to the art program in the

afternoon. And it was the first time in my life that I was

actually with a new group of people, and that the assumptions

that were made about me were suddenly they were different.

And I was able to show up differently, sort of the way,

you know, curry was mentioning earlier. And once I realized

that I could change other people's perception of me,

simply by showing up differently. I ran with it. And

I'm not the weird fat girl, now I'm a human being deserving of,

of respect, and you know, compassion. And then I made the

choice to be at that art school full time. And then I could

further change that perception by showing up differently in

style in languaging, in communication, and my energy

levels in understanding that the assumptions that were being made

of me, based on how I was showing up was allowing me to

not be picked on and kicked and punched in the face and thrown

into lockers and all of the things. And so now, as a 45 year

old woman, I realized that how I show up in the world will

determine how people choose to to communicate or appreciate who

I am or not. Right? So I can be an ego, if I fucking want to,

and I don't really give a shit what anybody else thinks.

Yes,

I love that so much cat. And you really, I think you

really brought it home there with finding that that

difference between the way that we perceive ourselves the way

that other people perceive us and recognizing that we have

control, at least some level of control over the way other

people perceive us. And that what we believe we're capable of

all of a sudden, when we show up believing that about ourselves,

who we show up as to other people changes. It's really,

really incredible thing to think about the power we have over who

who we are and you know, we talked before, when we were

talking about, you know, building skill sets and self

esteem. We talked about the fact that when you start when you

start doing hard things, and then you start seeing the

results from that it becomes this positive feedback loop that

reinforces that you're doing the thing that you want to be doing

right. So you want to become a master photographer, you start

winning awards, and those things are proof that you are doing

what you wanted to do. And in a big way, that is what this

relationship looks like to me when we start to believe that we

are an eagle and we start showing up as if we are and all

of a sudden people's perceptions of us start changing During,

when they treat us in a way that mirrors what we believe to be

true about ourselves, all of a sudden we have this positive

feedback loop. And that makes, that reinforces the truth of

what we believe and just strengthens all of that. So. So,

so interesting. I know how I want to close this conversation,

but I want to make sure that we have some time for everybody to

be able to share their final thoughts. So if anybody else up

on the panel today has any more thoughts about this idea of who

we are, and how we determine that, please, please share them

now. For me, this is Carol, I just want to

say I don't know how to do that. Because it conflicts with the

idea that I am completely honest. And to try and act like

I'm something different, so that I will be treated something

differently. I don't know how to do that. So I just want to leave

with that.

Honestly, I'm sorry, when Go ahead.

But I just wanted to say that no less a personage than

Benjamin Franklin, thought that we made a big mistake when we

chose the eagle as the symbol of our country, as he thought that

the turkey was a much smarter and more capable animal. And

that we should consider that. And so our perception of what is

to be admired, might need to be at least looked at if not

changed, before we decide what we will be.

Back or go ahead.

Now everyone sounds so much more profound and

optimistic than my own mutterings. Um, but yeah, I

mean, that that level of self honesty I find very interesting.

We could go down that path for much longer than we have, I

suppose. But I was just thinking, I read a paper the

other day, actually, about the relationship between addiction

and identity and how for, when someone identifies as an addict,

they are much more likely to then partake in addictive

behavior, whatever that may be for them, because they've

internalized that label for themselves. So I think there's

like so many different facets to this. And I think like both cat

and Matt said, there is this level of balance, I think that

can be struck. And we can learn how to empower ourselves to

control that balance, if we will. But yeah, yeah, I don't

know. Interesting one today, I appreciate everyone's insight.

I just wanted to touch on what what Carol said, you

know, I think that it's, it's also a process, you know, like,

it's difficult to just wake up one day and say, Okay, I'm gonna

act, feel I am a millionaire today. You know, it's, it's a

process. So you start with things that you find to be true

about yourself. And that sort of balloons or snowballs, as I

think Nicole said, you know, once you start getting that

validation, then you get the snowball effect. So it's, I

don't necessarily think it's been dishonest with you, though,

with yourself. I think you start from a place where you believe

this is where you are, and you can get to that next step. And

it's a process, you know, that we aren't static people. We

constantly change. We're affected by people what we see

in our everyday lives. So it's definitely a process.

Yeah, I think you're right on their career.

It's interesting, Carol, that you use the word honesty, and I

think, I think that is even something that would be

fantastic at some point to just dive into, because when we

believe we're being honest with ourselves, often what we're

actually doing is just reinforcing something that that

everybody agrees on. And what I mean by that is, you know, if so

I mentioned before, you know, growing up in poverty. And

everybody knew that to be true about me that was, you know,

close to me in my life. And so we all agreed, right? Like we

all just agreed that that was a thing. And my idea about myself

there and being honest with myself about who I was, and what

my life looked like. If I were to go and be around a group of

people who had no idea at the time that that was where I came

from, they wouldn't treat me in a way that validated that thing.

And all of the sudden, now the truth is open to interpretation.

And as an example

Sorry, I'm trying to think of a way that's going to communicate

this properly. Where perception is concerned, truth is relative.

And so, as Kirby mentioned, it's a process. And if I believe that

I'm a terrible public speaker, and I behave like I'm a terrible

public speaker, other people's perceptions of me will be that

I'm a terrible public speaker. And we will all agree, and that

will be the truth. But if I decide that I'm capable of being

a fantastic public speaker, not necessarily I am the greatest

public speaker that ever lived, because the reaction from other

people is going to challenge that belief, right? They're not

going to agree with me, and all the sudden, I'm going to have a

hard time maintaining that truth. But if I believe I can

become a fantastic public speaker, and that's the way that

I talk to myself, and then I behave as if I can become one.

Soon other people's feedback will start matching what I

believe myself to be capable of. And as those things support one

another, I can also begin altering what I believe to be

true about myself. So now that I believe I can be a great public

speaker and other people agree, because they're Validating my

belief with their response, then I can start changing, I can, I

can grow that up from there all of a sudden, you know, now I can

become and now I am. And everybody agrees with me.

Because that that's the feedback. Not sorry, I'm not

using this in real life about myself. I'm just trying to use

it as an example. So there's a balance there between how far we

go in our belief about ourselves, and what truth

actually is, and the fact that that truth is malleable. It

doesn't always mean that once it has been true, it will be true

forever. It's true, depending on the circumstances, and depending

on what we believe, and depending on what the feedback

we receive. So if we want to change that truth, we have to

take those first steps forward, even if they're not big ones.

And in that line, out, go ahead, Carol, and then I'll draw

everything to a close.

Oh, no, I was just agree. Sorry.

No, no worries. So in that line, I'm going to bring

it back to art a little bit. And posit, this is exactly the

reason visual literacy is so important. Because you have the

ability to affect the perception of other people, by the things

that you include in the work that you create. And so when

you, and it's the same, that's true, you know, cat just talked

about the fact that this was true for her in her life, you

show up a certain way, people respond a certain way, all of

the sudden you find yourself becoming that thing, those ways

that we perceive reality, we actually know some of these

things, scientifically, we know some of these things. And so we

recognize that you can affect the perception of people around

you by choosing to include certain things in your work. So

not only do we have the power to affect other people's

perceptions of us and our own beliefs about ourselves, and the

fact that change begins with the story, you tell yourself, and

then manifest in what you believe to be true, which

manifests in your behavior, which affects your destiny. And

of course, the response other people give you, the same thing

is true of our work, we have the ability to affect perception.

That's what visual literacy is, it's recognizing that there are

certain ways people perceive things and then taking advantage

of those. Okay, so this is this question of who we are. And then

what we do about that knowledge. Once we have it extends beyond

us as individuals, it moves all the way out into all the things

that we do, including the art that we make. So it's a really

fantastic thing to explore. I so much appreciate the conversation

today. And everybody's contribution to it, because it

gives us all of the subtlety that we want when we're thinking

about things like this. And I would challenge you to take your

thoughts about this and write them down somewhere or sketch

them or explore them a little bit. Because this is one of

those nebulous, philosophical questions that could potentially

manifest itself in really, really interesting ways through

the art that we create. So thank you, everybody, for being here

today for participating in this even though it was it's kind of

an interesting one. But I love these kinds of conversations.

I'm so glad that you're here to talk about them with me. I hope

that you have a fantastic rest of your day. that you will join

us tomorrow morning at 7am. Mountain Standard Time at 6am

for the West Coast and 9am for the East Coast, and that you

will join us tomorrow evening at 7pm. Mountain Standard Time as

we get together for the live stream where we will be

announcing the winners of the artists forge scholarship.

That's right. You thought there was only going to be one but we

decided to make it too. So you guys will have those winners

will have three hours over this quarter, one hour per month of

one on one on one on five mentoring with members of the

artists Forge to help in ways that you described that you

needed help. So come and be there for that. And in the

meantime, go make something amazing. We'll see everybody

bright and early tomorrow morning.

Thanks again for listening to this live clubhouse

discussion moderated by all of us at the artists Forge. We hope

you found the information useful and that it helps you gain a

little bit of insight as to how you work on your craft. For more

episodes, please join us each week day on clubhouse or visit

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