In this episode of Celebrating Small Family Businesses, hosts John and Connie Kuder interview Kieron and Carmen James, father and daughter co-founders of two businesses named Wonderful. Wonderful.org began as an online charity giving platform and the success of that led to expanding into a FinTech payment business, Wonderful.co.uk, leveraging open banking to eliminate card processing fees for donations.

They share the inspiration behind their ventures, the journey from frustration over traditional fundraising platforms to developing a completely fee-free service for charities, and how they navigated transforming this solution into a broader payment processing system for small businesses.

The discussion covers the origins of Wonderful, their venture into open banking, insights on running a family business, and their experiences with technology and regulatory challenges.

Additionally, Kieron shares his hobby in deep house music, illustrating the diverse interests that enrich the entrepreneurial journey.

Their charitable giving platform, free for charities to use, is https://wonderful.org/

Their e-commerce payment platform is https://wonderful.co.uk/

The Wonderful Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-wonderful-podcast/id1731346923

00:00 Welcome to Celebrating Small Family Businesses!

00:08 Introducing Wonderful.org: A Journey from Charity to FinTech

01:14 The Genesis of a Fee-Free Fundraising Platform

04:33 Embracing Open Banking: A Game-Changer for Fundraising

06:55 Navigating the Early Stages of Open Banking Adoption

15:33 The Family Dynamic in Business: Roles and Relationships

22:18 Transitioning the Team to a New Industry

24:24 The Remote Work Revolution and Startup Culture

24:46 The Early Days of Internet Entrepreneurship

26:20 The Unique Dynamics of Working with Family

28:45 Navigating the Challenges of Family Business

30:59 Future Plans and Open Banking Expansion

32:44 Leveraging Past Experiences for New Ventures

38:25 Advice for Small Family Businesses

42:44 Exploring Personal Passions: Deep House Music

John and Connie: Hi and welcome

to another episode of Celebrating

Small Family Businesses.

I'm John Kuder.

And I'm Connie Kuder.

And we are doing exactly that.

And today we are celebrating, well, I'm

going to ask the exact organization.

I think it's wonderful.org and also

wonderful, a separate company, but, uh,

Yeah, exactly.

You're right, John,

John and Connie: Karen and Carmen James.

we're trying to confuse

you from the get go by having two

businesses with the same name.

But yeah, we started life as an online

charity giving platform and then we've

also created a payments business.

But more of that to come, I'm sure.

But yes, both called wonderful.

John and Connie: Well, yes, that leads

right into my, my first question.

I know, you know, from looking at your

website a little bit, you guys are

into FinTech, which for our listeners

would be financial technology, and it

sounds like you're kind of deep into

it because you're doing something

called open banking that I had never

heard of until I heard, met you guys.

Mm hmm.

And, uh, and then you're also into

something called deep house music,

which I sampled a little bit of,

and I'm very curious about that,

Yeah.

John and Connie: but yeah, for, so how did

your, how did your business come to be?

Um, do you want me to take that?

Do you want to kick off Carmen

with how we got started?

It might be a good one for you

Yeah, sure.

I can kick off.

So basically we started,

is it eight years ago now?

Seven, eight years ago?

Um, my younger brother was

doing a charity skydive.

Someone at school had cancer, um, so he

was trying to raise some money for that.

And he went to do it through

one of the major fundraising

platforms we have here in the UK.

And when he set up his page he

realised that a bunch of the money

goes towards the platform fees.

So card processing, um, and also

just For running the platform, um,

and it's not really not for profit

that the platform fees, you know, the

company is making money off, off that.

Um, and he kind of got really

frustrated about it, uh, and was

sharing that with the family.

And then I think we were like, Oh,

you know, there's an opportunity here.

It doesn't seem fair that there

aren't fee free fundraising platforms.

Cause we did look around and

there didn't seem to be any that

were a hundred percent fee free.

And that kind of sparked the idea.

We thought, why don't we make our own?

I

Bit of an extra

background for context.

I'd done a bit of running for

charity as well over many years.

And, um, we were coming up, so that

must've been 2015 that we were starting

to think about this and we were coming

up to a big year in 2016 in terms

of lots of family events happening.

So it was my 50th birthday.

We had our 25th wedding anniversary.

Um, I think Dan had his 18th and

uh, and Gabby had a 21st, my middle

daughter, so it was only Carmen actually.

He didn't have any significant

birthday feeling very left out.

Um, so we said 20 sixteen's

coming, let's mark the year and

I'll do the New York marathon.

And, and then we had this kind of

harebrained idea that we would also

build a charity fundraising platform to

collect the donations on the back of,

um, of Daniel's frustration, I think.

Um, so yeah, it was, it was a bit nuts.

We kind of went into the office and

said to the developers who were all

telecoms engineers, do you fancy

building a fundraising platform?

And they said, well, why not?

John and Connie: perfect?

Well, why not?

I love that.

Tech's tech, right?

Or programming is programming,

to an extent that's exactly right.

And I think for them as well, it was

a really great chance to, to, to give

back, you know, that, that genuine

feeling of giving up a lunch break and,

and, and your coffee time weekends.

And just doing something

that's inherently good.

Um, I think we were kind of

quite inspired by the group of

people that we were supporting.

Cause you've got charities, um, their

supporters, and then the fundraisers going

out, doing tremendous things, donors, all

of those people doing wonderful things.

And we thought, well, if we can get

a platform that sits in the middle,

that's completely philanthropic.

Um, and I think the model that

we anticipated using for that

was corporate sponsorship.

So we would find a corporate

sponsor to, to partner with.

To back it, uh, we undertook to do

that with the telecoms business for

the, you know, the first chunk of

money that went through the platform.

And then we, we set out to try

and find a bigger, a bigger

sponsor with deeper pockets

Yeah, and I think we realised

that, ultimately, the main cost of the

platform was the card processing fees.

So every time someone made a donation

with their card, their credit or

debit card, that would incur fees

that we would have to pay to Stripe.

So that basically became the ceiling on

our reach of how big can this platform

get because these card processing fees

are just going to get bigger and bigger.

And we're going to keep having

to ask our corporate sponsors

for more and more money.

and that leads

us into open banking.

John and Connie: Yes, which

yeah, I I don't even think I

can summarize open banking.

My takeaways from from what i've read

and heard is is that it's a more direct

connection to the bank's API or something

so that you're basically bypassing the

processing and all of the fees and so you

reduce it from, you know, well over 90%.

That's broadly it.

Yeah.

And essentially what happened here

was, um, there was an initiative

really to increase innovation in

the, in the financial banking sector.

Um, and the way that that was really

kicked off in, in, in fairly simple terms

is the banks were, the biggest banks were

mandated to open up their APIs to, to

newly created FinTechs like ourselves.

Um, so you need to be authorized.

You're, we're regulated.

It's a, it's a 12 month process

to get yourself authorized.

So it, you know, it's no walk in

the park to do that, but once you're

authorized, that then gives us

permission with the consent of the

person who wants to move the money.

So say a customer to a retailer.

As long as they consent to

Wonderful processing that

payment on, on their behalf.

That money is you quite rightly

say, John, it just moves directly

from their account instantly,

instantly to the retailer's account.

So, you know, typically a card

transaction, there are multiple

intermediaries in that process.

Um, if you're a merchant, then you're

probably waiting for settlement

for a day, possibly longer for that

money to hit your bank account.

So there are massive

advantages with open banking.

And again, as you pointed out, not

least that the huge savings of taking

out all of those intermediaries.

Um, so there's, you know, there's

one company in the middle of

that transaction, which is us.

So we saw this not only as a

means of solving that problem

for the fundraising platform.

It was then very quickly that penny

drop moment when you go, actually,

if this problem exists for charities,

donors, and fundraisers clearly exists

in the, in the commercial sector too.

So.

If we can leverage this, harness the

technology of open banking and create

something that's simple, fast, secure, 95

percent cheaper, um, super transparent,

then that's going to be a good thing.

So again, we just kept the name

wonderful for the commercial business

because really a payment made

using open banking is wonderful.

John and Connie: Yes.

Yeah.

Are you, would you consider yourselves

early adopters in this area?

We, we feel that from

a business point of view, we've

probably struck it just about right.

Um, I can't remember, I should find out

who the quote's attributable to, but

it's kind of stay two steps ahead of the

competition and you risk being a martyr,

stay one step ahead and you're a leader.

Um, And I, and I think that's

kind of where we feel that we

are in terms of the process.

So there were a lot of people that were

in just as open banking was emerging

and clearly like any new technology.

There are, there are

niggles to work through.

It can be quite tricky

in that first instance.

The standards need.

Working on to make sure all the

banks are adopting in the same way.

So we feel like, you know, some of that

difficult work had already been done by

the time we applied for our authorization.

And similarly, you know, when

it's brand new technology,

adoption takes a bit of time.

So we feel like we've got this,

we're early, but we're not so

early that it's going to be

difficult to, to, to gain a market.

John and Connie: I was going

to say that there's a reason

they call it bleeding edge.

exactly.

Yeah, exactly right.

All I was going to say as well

was, um, being in the UK, I think It's

coming to America, I think it's probably

a bit further behind, but at the moment in

the UK, it is quite an emerging technology

that's being adopted quite quickly here.

What we've had, we've

seen a couple of things really

that, that relate to our, our

position in, in, in the market.

One is the, the charity sector.

We often say, wouldn't be probably

your first sector to target innovation,

largely because charities are, you

know, time poor a lot of the time.

It's not that they don't want to do it.

It's just that they don't have the

time to start investigating the latest

trends in technology and adopting them.

So it was, it was kind of nice

in a sense that we, you know, we

We were obliged to adopt this.

It was either that or accept that that

ceiling and our reach and impact was

always going to be low because the card

fees were always going to be there.

Um, so in that sense, removing the

cards and going the open banking

route meant we forced all of our

donors to use open banking now.

That might seem like quite a harsh thing,

but it's also a really positive thing.

Cause if I'm about to donate to

your 5k run and I don't give,

you know, there's no option.

There's no other way of me donating

other than via this platform.

Then I'm probably going to see that

donation through from start to finish.

Even if it's the first time

I've encountered the technology.

Whereas if I was just going to go and

make a purchase of something that I could

buy on another website, then I might go,

Oh, I'm not familiar with open banking.

I'll just go and use

my card somewhere else.

So I think that gave us.

kind of quite a captive audience to,

to really test this technology out and

get some real, real feedback from them.

Um, and as the, the other thing

Carmen's mentioned as well, it's, it's

nascent, but growing really rapidly.

And the, , equivalent of the

IRS, HMRC in the UK is a massive

evangelist for open banking.

So now you can pay any tax

bill at all using open banking.

Including your fines if

you, you get fined by them.

So, so again, huge supporter and saved UK

taxpayers millions and millions of pounds.

John and Connie: That's outstanding.

I'm looking forward to the spread of it.

Yeah.

My, if we were a technology podcast,

I'd be asking all about the security

and so forth and you know, but it

sounds like if it's regulated and

it's, and it's, it's, you've got to

go through that kind of a process.

The, the security of the transactions

is really not a question.

Super secure.

And again you're right,.

It's not a tech podcast, But,

but basically in summary, it's

a tokenized payment that's valid

for, you know, a couple of minutes.

So it is that token, it's almost like

Imagine if you were sending somebody

a check and the, the, the envelope

was intercepted, then, you know,

there's an outside chance you might

be able to rewrite the recipient's

name on the check and somehow do that.

With an open banking transaction,

you can't, once that's being issued,

it can't be revoked or changed.

So it's valid for a few seconds from the

point it's initiated or a few minutes

from the point it's initiated to the

point it's paid and it's tokenized.

So super secure.

John and Connie: Outstanding.

Um, that's exciting stuff.

I hope it spreads around the world.

Well, I think that's very likely.

You're seeing lots and

lots of adoption now.

I think in Brazil, um, actually there

are more alternative, alternative

payments using open banking.

There are now card payments,

which is again, phenomenal

really, because it didn't exist.

I think the start of the pandemic was when

they started to introduce it in Brazil and

it's outstripped card payments already.

John and Connie: I would think the

banks would be somewhat resistant

because it's taking away profits.

Yep, I guess that's true.

Um, and there will be, they're just

going to have to rethink models.

And I think that's the only thing to

do when the technology is, is there and

it's crying out to be used and there's

very little argument for not using it

for a consumer's point of view that just

leads you to rethink, well, we've got

to find alternative ways of generating

funds and maybe isn't three transactions.

Um, so yeah, be interesting

to see how it maps out.

But as I say that, I think that

mandate is really important

to get the innovation going.

John and Connie: Yeah.

And at some point when it becomes

well enough known, it becomes

a social, a cultural mandate.

Exactly, exactly.

John and Connie: you don't want to

be the last adopter at that point.

Absolutely.

John and Connie: So you've used this

successfully for how many years now?

Because you said that you,

you know, you thought, started

thinking about it, what, in 2016?

No.

Now, So a little bit after that, we, we

launched the fundraising platform in 2016.

And, um, in February 2016, we used

cards for a couple of years, completely

unaware that there was any alternative.

And to be honest, it was

really just emerging 2016

OpenBank, probably 2017, really.

Um, so we'd already gone down

the route of, of using cards.

We'd negotiated very, very favorable

rates with our card provider.

Yeah.

Um, just on the basis of what we were

doing, but they were at a point where they

said, we, we really can't drop anymore.

And we understand that, you know,

they, they have mouths to feed.

And as I say, a lot of

intermediaries in those transactions.

Um, so it was really out of almost

desperation of, we've got to

find a solution to this problem.

Is there anything out there?

And I remember, you know, task, what

happened was during lockdown, start of

lockdown, we kind of paused the platform,

um, because we couldn't maintain it.

We were running the telecom service.

And we also, as part of the

telecom service provided free

conferencing, telephone conferencing.

So when Boris Johnson announced

lockdown in the UK, everybody who was

conferencing or everybody who was used

to working in a, you know, in a physical

environment was suddenly conferencing

and the capacity on our network just

went completely through the roof.

So we had to pause that, um,

fundraising platform briefly

to figure out what we did.

Cause we just, we were a small business,

you know, probably eight, nine people

in total running both of those things.

So we said, something's got to

give let's, let's pause briefly

and figure out what we do next.

And Carmen, I'll let you

pick up what happened next.

Cause we, you remember me making

that donation and I'll let you

just describe what happened.

Yeah, I think basically

you came across, uh, it was

another, uh, fundraising platform.

You, one of your friends had

shared something on social media

that they were doing a head shave.

And raising some money for a really

worthy cause and basically you clicked

on, did the donation, didn't even realize

that it was an open banking transaction.

You felt like it was super smooth,

really easy, the money kind of just left

your account and went to the charity.

And then you said, wow,

what just happened?

Go and figure it out.

And I did a bunch of research and

found out all about open banking.

I'd never heard of it.

You'd never heard of it.

And we just thought, wow, this is a

really big opportunity and could solve.

the whole problem we've been having

with card processing fees basically

being this ceiling on our reach.

I think what happened

was from, from the, we closed,

I think the 20th of March.

Um, and we literally just say

goodbye to all the charities.

We thought, well, if we reemerge, it's

going to be a little while off yet.

No one knows what's going to be happening

with a, with a global pandemic anyway.

I think that by that stage in 2020, all

hoping it was going to be a few weeks or

possibly, you know, three or four months.

And, and it was obviously a lot longer

and I think we reopened in October.

So six months later, we'd kind of almost

rebuilt the platform, removed all of the

car processing from it and integrated

a third party open banking provider.

Um, and then set about, you know,

shortly after that, getting our own

authorization and just doing it ourselves.

John and Connie: Cool.

Very nice.

Well, Carmen, you mentioned that you,

uh, you went and did some research.

So that leads me to, you know, as

you guys work together, together in

your own family business, um, how,

how are your roles, what roles do

you play and, and how do you, how did

you define them and keep them, clean?

Yeah, so I've kind of worked with

my dad for years and years, even prior

to this business and other businesses,

I started doing like SEO type content

while I was at university, just writing

bits here and there as a bit of a

way to make extra cash on the side.

Um, and then after university, I

did zoology at university and then

biodiversity and conservation as

well, which is totally different

to anything that I'm doing now.

And once I graduated, I quickly realized

that those types of jobs expect you

to volunteer for a very long time.

for free to get anywhere and I was like,

I can't live in London with no salary.

Um, so I basically started

working, uh, with my dad in the

telecommunications business.

Um, I was doing, I started off doing

a bit of customer support alongside my

university degree and then progressed into

doing more project management type stuff.

And that's when we started Wonderful,

alongside the telecoms company.

And then I basically progressed

from project management

into, , products management.

So working with our users to figure

out what they wanted, how we can

improve, , our products and things

like, which I really enjoyed.

And then recently, just as of this year,

I've transitioned into head of operations.

Um, so I'm co-founder of Wonderful

and head of operations and Kieran's

CEO and co-founder of Wonderful.

And in terms of working

with Carmen, uh, it's a joy.

Um, it really is genuinely and it's

an easy thing to say, but, um, I

think we managed that relationship

of, of, of colleagues and father

daughter really, really well.

Um, so it's, it's different in the

office than, than it is at home.

What's interesting about that was

because I think, I think all of the

family have been involved in the

business at one point or another.

Um, so my middle daughter also did

some content writing and actually

still does now and again, even though

she's got a very busy full time job,

if I ever want somebody to do a bit of

proofreading or go through some ideas

or so on, she's really first rate.

And my son started coding with us, having

never done any coding at all, and is

now running his own businesses in, in,

you know, in coding and development.

Um, so I think they've all been involved

at one point or another, but it was

funny.

Mum

did as well.

Yeah, my wife has too.

So, so yeah, it's always been a bit

of a family affair, but I think it

was done actually the first time

during one of the meetings that,

that in a, on a call with all the

colleagues said Kieran rather than dad.

Uh, and actually it was kind

of a really important thing.

And it, whilst it sounded really

weird, cause he didn't mention

to me that he was going to do it.

So it was just like, Oh,

that's, that's kind of odd.

Um, it made complete sense from the

moment he did that, that that was the

relationship that it was Kieran and Dan,

, and Carmen adopted that immediately.

And I think Gabby adopted that.

And so I find it really strange

cause I don't have to do it, but.

I'm never Kieran outside the office

and I'm always Kieran in the office.

Um, so it's a clever leap, but I

think it's quite an important one.

John and Connie: Oh, it's,

I, I think it's brilliant.

Uh, someone else was telling us one

of the, the ways they handled things

was they, they actually had hats made.

You know, we're, we've got, we're big

on the baseball caps here in the US.

I don't know.

So they had hats made with a,

with a title, you know, like dad.

Mm hmm.

Or boss or whatever it was, and they

would actually, you know, when, when

the conversation needed to shift from

one area to the other in the office,

they would change hats as a reminder.

I love it.

John and Connie: You guys kind

of did a much more subtle,

Yeah, I

John and Connie: that's yeah,

that's so key to keeping, you

know, setting those boundaries.

I think it's absolutely right.

But it's also that for me, it's

that professional respect as well

that it commands amongst colleagues

because guess it is always going to

be difficult for, for, for Carmen and

others, or at least on paper, it's

difficult because you come in and

you're going, yeah, well, it's your dad.

So your head of operations, you know,

but, and I think drawing that, that

line under that very firmly and,

and, and calling me Kieran, I think

really works and underscores that

it's got nothing to do with, with

relationships or familial relationships.

This is professional environment.

and I think it helps as well

that that's not how I started, you know

I've literally like I started doing

customer support and i've worked my way

up over the course of five six years.

So

in a number of businesses that,

and we were very fortunate when we sold

the telecoms business, I think again,

it was, uh, it was, it was kind of a

tribute to the team and everyone else

that we move the entire team from telecoms

into fintech, barring one person who

was locked into the acquisition of that

business because he was, you know, through

and through a telecoms engineer, but

everyone else came with us, which again,

I think is kind of, it's a really nice

message to send to the senior management

team and the owners of the business.

Um, and Carmen's the same, you

know, she's worked on, on multiple

businesses now with me, which is great.

John and Connie: Very nice.

Very nice.

Yeah.

So a lot of one of the family business

advisors, you know, a lot of the, uh, the

bigger family businesses that we don't

focus on their advisors advise that the,

uh, younger generations actually work

outside the business in a competitor's,

uh, field business if possible, or, or

just a related field for a few years.

A, to, for, for them and also for, for

the people that they're going to be

working with later when they, if they

come to the company, they, they find

out first of all, you know, who they are

and, and how they tick in a environment

that's not the family business, but then

they've also kind of earned their stripes

before they come into the business and

they come with some experience and some

ideas and, and, uh, but it's, you know,

it's, it can be, it's also entirely

valid to do it the way you've done it,

Carmen, where you, you know, you work up.

Yeah, I think, I think

that's a really, really good idea.

It seems like something that will be

difficult to retrofit, but, uh, having

gone down that route, we should send

you out into one of our competitors.

They'll think, they'll think you're a spy.

Um, but no, I completely

see the merit in that.

It makes a lot of sense.

John and Connie: it sounds like the other

thing you've done, it sounds intentional.

You brought all your people over.

So, you know, you've, you've clearly

communicated to the people that, that

have worked with you for a long time,

that you value them and that, you know,

it's not a matter of, you're not limiting

their growth by having family members.

No, absolutely.

No.

And I, and I think again, there was a

lot, there was a lot of expectation that

people will be able to make that move

prior to the move happening that then when

you realize just how big a move it is,

it's fundamentally, it's not like, you

know, pivoting in a business or, or, or

going into a slightly different area of

the same business, you know, maybe from

lending into payments in FinTech or from,

from outbound to inbound in telecoms.

This was no, it's a completely different

industry with a completely different

regulator, a completely, Um, rigor in that

regulation, clearly financial services.

I'm not saying that telecoms isn't

regulated effectively, but it's a

different level of regulation from

experience was, was a, was a big piece

for everyone, and I think, I don't think

we underestimated it or maybe we did.

But people handled it incredibly well.

Um, significant move.

I think you're right.

When you alluded earlier, you know,

you're an engineer, you're a developer,

it kind of doesn't matter if you're,

if you're selling widgets, it's

the same approach I've always had.

It doesn't matter what we're SEOing

for, whether it's a payment, a company

formation, a domain name registration,

telecom service, as long as the approach

is consistent throughout, then it's

The product probably matters less.

Um, but in terms of a lot of that

other stuff I think we probably

had underestimated just what a

leap it was going to be to do

that fca authorization for example

John and Connie: And it sounds like,

uh, that, uh, well, I went through,

I came in late into a corporate

environment, but it was a brand new

shared services center that was, I think

just under a year old when I got there.

And so they had all started in a,

in an offsite, basically a series of

closets, I think, and, and they, you

know, they, they didn't have a facility.

They were still being built.

And so the team gelled going through that

startup, rough startup process together.

I'm thinking that probably

happened with your team as well.

It's like everybody was a new hire,

but you already had the relationships.

Yeah, no, exactly, right

I think that made it really

strong actually because we did

all have that trust in each other.

We had those relationships

already going into it.

Um, and we all kind of knew each

other on a personal level as well.

So, whereas if we'd just built the company

from scratch with completely a new team

and also we're broadly remote, I'd say

we're pretty much 100 percent remote.

We meet once a month in person.

Um, that would have been very hard

to do if they were all complete

strangers that had never met before.

John and Connie: Oh, absolutely.

Heh heh

But you remind me actually Our

other co-founder is a guy I've worked

with for 20 odd years now who's our

CFO , and I remember joining his business.

It was probably one of the first

that I joined having sold a web

design business in the late 1990s

and his business was domain name

registration and it was exploding.

You know, it was the time when

everybody was buying a com net org and

whatever country domain name they could

get with my, my brand new venture.

com.

Um, and they were doing domain names.

So it was just going through the roof.

Um, and I arrived at his office

and this was proper startup life.

And I said, where's my desk?

And literally pointed over

to the corner to a flat pack.

I said, it's over there and speak

to John about a screwdriver.

He'll help you put it together.

But, but again, just alluding

to that, that camaraderie of

literally putting up the desk before

he's sitting on them was great.

It was really, really good.

I think everyone felt like

it was, things were moving.

Like physically moving.

It was brilliant.

John and Connie: That they, you were

so busy that you didn't have time

to put the desk in for the new guy.

No, absolutely.

There were lit, you know, people

were arriving so fast that it was

just, you know, build your desk

and once it's up, go and grab your

computer from someone and away you go.

John and Connie: Well, it also, there's a,

an aspect of that that comes to mind also

of the, you're not stepping into somebody

else's shoes when you do that, right?

You're not trying to, wondering what

the last guy did that you're, you're,

you're being watched to make sure you

don't do or do, do right or whatever,

No, absolutely.

John and Connie: that's a brand new desk.

Wow.

What do you love most

about working with family?

What, is there something

that really stands out?

I think, I think one of the

positives is also a negative in that

you can chew over stuff at the dinner

table, literally some of the day's work.

Um, but that has its downsides too.

I think, I think.

Oftentimes, it's great to be able to

share things at that level that, you

know, it's a family member and you can

go beyond a boardroom conversation.

Um, but as I say, it also has its

downsides of sometimes you do need

to just switch off and chill out.

Um, I don't know whether you've got

any views on that Carmen as well.

Yeah, I think it's hard to get

the balance right sometimes, but for me

I think one of the biggest positives is

we can be 100 percent transparent with

each other, like I see you as a colleague,

but also at the end of the day, you're my

dad, so if I'm worried about something at

work or you know, I have any concerns or I

have any ideas, I'm never hesitant to run

them by you, I don't ever feel nervous.

Because I, you know,

And I think, I think knowing

so much more about somebody as

well is a massive inspiration.

You know, Carmen's gone through, uh, a

fairly major health crisis a little while

ago, which she's coped with incredibly

well, um, and I'm really, you know, turned

her life around in so many ways that

it's a source of huge inspiration for me

that goes beyond that family life, but

into the workplace as well, because it's

just that ability to Whatever's thrown

at you, I find quite inspirational.

John and Connie: Fabulous.

That's, yeah, that's something you

don't often hear parents say, is

that they find their child inspiring.

Mm hmm.

I love

No, I mean, really, and

genuinely we, you know, we, I've

always been quite into health and diet,

I've been vegan for 20 odd years now.

And what Carmen did after the cancer

in terms of taking a holistic approach

to, to, to everything was just, it made

my vegan diet look like a, like a walk

in the park, to use that term again,

because it was just so full on, um, And,

and the same with exercise and so on.

It's been, it's, it's incredible to watch

and also how she's just taken that in her

stride really, and just got on with it.

It's really, it's really impressive.

And, and if you want a reference for

work, what, what best, what better

reference can you have than that?

John and Connie: Absolutely.

Is there something about being in business

with family that you know now that

you wish you'd known when you started?

Do you know, it feels like

I've been doing a personally, this

is my take, Carmen might have a

different view, but my takes feel

like I've been doing it for so long.

It does feel pretty second nature now.

Um, I think the only thing, as I

say, it will be occasionally, it

will be nice to know you can draw

a line under it and just stop.

And I think there are occasions when

we do, I mean, Carmen will probably

tell you that there were times and

I'll just go, no, it's the weekend.

Let's just not.

Um, and that's not always easy,

but yeah, that's probably the one

it's for me, it will be that just.

Kind of being able to say, no, let's,

let's just stop talking about work.

Yeah, I think that's the hardest

thing because If you have an idea or

something comes to you that you want

to discuss with your colleague, you

probably think it's inappropriate to

message them at the weekend, but if

you're literally seeing each other

for lunch anyway, or you're bumping

into each other in the living room

or kitchen, you might mention it.

So it's just trying to keep those

boundaries can be hard, I think.

John and Connie: That,

that says it perfectly.

And, and that's the same thing on, you

know, we're in the workplace where the

family, uh, relationships, you know,

where the family drama, if there is

any, can come out in the workplace

inappropriately is because you're so

close to that edge of, you know, you

just slide into that other role and

that's, that's where the hat's got to be,

Yeah, I think

that's, that's very true.

And it's something that we do studiously

try and avoid any of that and just leave

it at home or leave it at work, um, as

much as you can, you know, we're human

at the end of the day and it will happen

from time to time, but, um, you know,

as long as, again, people say, you know,

there are no failures, it's just lessons

learned and it's the same thing if you

learn from that and try not to do it

again, and then, then that's progress.

I think it also

helps that I'm 31 now.

If we tried to do this while I

Oh, yes.

I think it would

have been very different.

John and Connie: right.

There's got to be a maturity level, right?

Oh, yes.

No,

we'd have been able to do it then.

that's,

John and Connie: Yeah.

that's exactly right.

I mean, yeah, the thought of

trying to do this when you were

15, no, probably wouldn't work.

John and Connie: So what's next,

uh, for the company and for you

guys, uh, you know, together?

Well, we, we just said we'd

been providing the open banking donation

services now for us in our own right as an

FCA authorized entity for 18 months or so.

We're just starting the

commercial product rollout now.

So this is the time when we start

billing people for the service.

So that's going to be interesting.

Um, but the, the beauty of open

banking is that 95 percent savings.

So we see that as, as being, you know,

there'll be a strong appetite for it.

We're sure.

And I think the idea is really to

just start integrating with as many

different e-commerce platforms,

accountancy, software packages, um,

electronic point of sale providers.

There are so many places we can

just bolt a payment solution, an

open banking payment solution to

the end of that flow, uh, and save

the merchant, uh, You know, a lot of

money that that's what we plan to do.

You alluded earlier to the, you know, this

probably not being ready in the, in the U.

S.

just yet, it's going to happen.

You're clearly the most technically

ready I would imagine on the planet

in terms of having the mobile

coverage and everything else.

So I think that mandate

will happen in due course.

There's clearly a lot of interest

in it not happening soon, but.

I'm sure at some point the

pressures will, will come to bear.

So we're, we're fortunate in that

the UK market is reasonably mature.

So we've got a lot of, we've got

about five and a half million small

businesses to go at in the UK,

which is a fairly big market for us.

Uh, and I think then we'll start to

look at the EU market and then further

afield, you know, there are a number of

countries where adoption is fairly strong.

So it'll be an international rollout

once we've kind of conquered the UK.

John and Connie: That sounds very cool.

Is there any, like you, you mentioned

with the, , telecoms and the, the

conferencing at the beginning of

the , COVID, , lockdown, you know, how

the, the system, the The pressure on

your systems, you know, to, to handle

the increased capacity was, was high.

Do you anticipate anything like that

with the open banking or, or is it not an

It's, it's one of the things.

I was asked about a lot and obviously

as a founder going into a completely

different sector, you're also a little

bit nervous that you think you can

do this, but is there some secret

source that you just don't know about?

But one of the things that made me

confident going into this is if you think

about the amount of data that you're

processing when you set up a telephone

call and then maintain that telephone

call, it's quite, it's not trivial.

You know, it's a significant

amount of data that's being

processed with, with a transaction.

It's actually.

quite considerably less.

And certainly what you're not

doing is maintaining, maintaining

a call in progress for 10

minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes.

And as I said, we were very big

in the conference calling space.

So they might be 90 minute calls with,

you know, 70, 80 participants on them.

So we were kind of used to that.

Um, whilst we were nervous about the

secret source, it didn't materialize.

We found that we could integrate the banks

really quickly and everything worked.

I shouldn't say this.

I'm tempting fate, but touch

wood work really, really well.

And we continue to integrate more

banks, but so far we've not seen any

concerns at all about handling volume.

It feels like it's something we're

probably quite adept at doing.

So

I think the other

John and Connie: Carmen.

thing that's a benefit is because

we saw that with the telecoms company,

and we've built this from the start,

we've always thought, keep scaling in

mind, make sure it's scalable, make sure

the technology behind it is something

that can handle, you know, suddenly

going viral and things like that, so.

We've been lucky that we've had

that experience in the past with

another business and known to

implement that from the start.

yeah, the COVID thing was,

was incredible for the telecoms

because they were, everyone really

mucked in very quickly, everybody,

all the suppliers, the whole lot.

So we were seeing things like it

mentioned 20 fold increase in capacity

on the network in 10, 14 days.

It was, it was insane, but processes

where we will be buying capacity

from upstream tier one providers that

sometimes, well, it usually would

take, you know, maybe 48, 72 hours.

They were turning around in 40 minutes.

Um, you were just saying you need

more capacity, there's more capacity.

And it, and it was, it was a real

spirit of we've got to make this work.

I think it was because it was

Covid as well, everyone was kind of

coming together, the whole country,

well I guess the whole world felt like

it kind of was coming together to try

John and Connie: Yeah.

The whole world focused on one problem.

It was

Yeah.

exactly.

John and Connie: historic.

I mean, we were, we were seeing

like sign up, we, we had signups to that.

And say, typically if we were doing

half a dozen a day, signing up to use

the service, it was going, I think

one of the busiest days it went from,

from that half dozen to like 890,

you know, new businesses signing up

to use that conferencing service.

Um, and then of course, what happened?

Uh, is everyone started using zoom.

So they all went from telephone

to video and we just saw that

immediately decline as well.

So everyone got very

comfortable with video calling.

John and Connie: Yes.

And, and zoom, uh, early on, or I saw

a, uh, several months into COVID, there

was an article letter, I guess, written

by the, uh, president of the company.

And he said, before COVID, we were

trying to figure out how to scale from

11 million free accounts to 13 million

free accounts in the, in the year 2020.

And within three months,

we were at 127 million.

Absolutely unbelievable.

But we, we got.

John and Connie: And, and they did

it pretty much without a hiccup.

Yeah, I would agree.

You know, absolutely hats off to them.

Although we were frustrated at

the time as well, because Probably

the same way you are as well, but

Zoom became the, uh, the verb.

And, and when you're trying to run

a business as a competitor, the last

thing you want is the BBC every day

saying, and so and so was on a, well,

it was Zooming, you know, it was

just like, please, there are other,

other conference services exist.

John and Connie: Yes.

I hadn't thought about that.

Sorry.

Oh my goodness.

Well, so something that just popped into

mind, I was going to, you know, our,

our, our kind of wrap up question is how

can people reach you, but is there any.

Have you given any thought to, uh, doing,

having some sort of a consulting arm in

your business since you've already been

through this whole process and you, you

can see that it's, there's going to be

an adoption curve happening here in the

U S as part of how can people reach you?

Can they reach out to you about how

to implement this when the time comes?

Absolutely.

Without a doubt.

We mentioned we're focused

on the small business sector.

That's because that's what we've

done in all of the other businesses.

It's always been a case of trying

to target that sector and make

something very easy to find.

Easy to register for and easy to use.

So really focusing again

on those time poor people.

So typically small businesses are very

similar to charities in that respect.

Um, so that's our focus, but clearly,

as you, as you say, a lot of the work

that we've done, that technical piece

of integrating all the banks, not

only for payment services, but account

information services, which is another.

Another, facet of open banking, , we've

got a huge amount of experience.

So we are certainly open to inquiries

from, from, you know, people who are

looking to us for consultancy services

or enterprise businesses as well.

Um, and I think there'll be,

I mean, there, there's a huge

opportunity certainly in the U S

once that, once that happens and

we'll be looking at that in earnest.

John and Connie: All right.

So what, what advice would you

give a small family business?

Just starting out.

The, the one.

John and Connie: What would be the

there are a couple from

me that I often say to people

who are just founding businesses.

One is, is it's not, they're

probably both fairly obvious, but the

tenacity is a really important one.

Um, just keep going.

I think it's always a good thing to, if

you, if you're brand new and starting

a business, I think always think it's

a good thing to try and find something

that you genuinely interested in.

Um, but then one of the things that

I'll say a lot of the time is you

need to be very, very black and

white when it comes to the numbers.

So what I mean by that is often if you've

got a passion for something, you can be

a bit blinded by that passion and think

it's a fantastic business opportunity

because it's something that you love.

Um, but if the numbers aren't stacking

up, so you start selling that fantastic

opportunity that you've come across

because you're passionate about it, but

there isn't really a market for it, then

always be prepared to make that pivot

or ultimately, if it's not working, you

know, move away, think of something else.

Um, and the way that I'll summarize

that often is be passionate and

dispassionate in equal measure.

So be really passionate about the idea,

but be dispassionate about those numbers.

Look at them in the cold, hard light

of day and, and understand what

they're telling you and the, and the

changes that you might need to make.

So I think those are the, the.

the thoughts that have

stuck with me for a while.

John and Connie: And Carmen, from

the sec from the next generation,

yeah, I'd say for me, I'd say

if you're doing a family business,

definitely try and establish a healthy

division of family time and business time.

Figure out your own ways to do

it, but just try and keep that

somewhat separate, at least for a

certain period of time every week.

But I'd say it's a really great

opportunity because I think there's

a level of investment and passion

in the business that is, like,

is driven because of your family.

You, you both care so much, you know,

you're working on something together,

you've lived your whole lives together.

And you have that bond that

I think that that's a really

powerful tool for a business to

have that driving force behind it.

I agree.

It's infectious.

Yeah, exactly.

John and Connie: is.

It is.

Wow.

You guys are fabulous.

You're wonderful.

How's that?

You can have that one for free.

you.

John and Connie: Thank you.

Thank you very much.

We normally, we normally

charge 5 and we've got it registered

now every time anyone says wonderful.

So if the payments model doesn't

John and Connie: Checks in the mail.

So your website for your

charitable giving is wonderful.

org.

And that is for people that, charities

that want to set up this very low cost

transaction of receiving money, but it's

also for donors to, to donate money to the

charities that you've got listed, right?

So yeah, a couple

of points of clarification.

It's free for charities.

It always has been.

It always will be.

It's non negotiable.

It's 100 percent free and we

will never change that no matter

what happens to the business.

Um, charities need to be

registered in the UK currently.

Um, so it's only UK charities and

for the donors and fundraisers.

Yeah, absolutely.

You're right.

They, they, a fundraiser would set up a

page, for example, to, to run a marathon

or do a triathlon or bake a cake or jump

out of an airplane, um, and raise money

from friends, colleagues, and family.

Equally, the charities can just

set up a direct donations page on

there or use a button on their own

website to take advantage of that

free donation processing service.

So.

John and Connie: Really simple.

And then our commercial website,

um, for our sort of e commerce plugins

and stuff like that is wonderful.

co.

uk

John and Connie: We'll,

we'll also put this.

Yeah.

These are, this will be in the show

notes and there'll be a backlink.

Like again, I, I don't know where

our listeners will be, if they're,

how many we'll have in the UK.

I hope they'll, that'll grow and that'll

be a, but, but also I see, you know, as

this grows in the U S that, you know,

We'll be happy to pop

back and tell you more about what

we're doing if you'll have us.

John and Connie: We'd love that.

We'd love that.

Well, thank you so much for spending

this time with us, and it's been a

pleasure getting to know you both.

I got one question.

What about the music thing?

Oh, yeah.

Deep House music.

What's Deep House music?

So

John and Connie: How do you define it?

It's a variation of house music,

uh, tends to be fairly bass heavy.

I got into it because

I was a poor drummer.

So, so I used to play the drums

in an indie rock band back

in the very, very early days.

Um, and I was a lazy drummer.

So I never practiced all of my

rudiments and all of that clever

stuff that you've got today.

I was just, I just couldn't be bothered.

It was all too much like hard work.

So I often had these rhythms in my head.

But I couldn't play them because

technically I wasn't able to do it.

So I discovered electronic music a few

years ago and suddenly I could sit in

front of a computer and it effectively,

you know, grid out those things that were

in my head and have the machine play it.

Um, and then really one of the

challenges I think for music production

is trying to make anything that's got

a heavy bass line, not sound muddy.

And I like a challenge.

So that, that was the thing that

really drove me to doing that.

Can I, can I make music that's got

kind of quite a heavy baseline,

not sound muddy and let's start

doing some deep house music.

So yeah, bass heavy

house music effectively.

John and Connie: I like that.

All right.

Well, thank you so much for clearing

that up, because I know he was

going to ask me in a half an hour

from now going, Oh, I forgot.

Yeah.

It's another thing that

anyone wants to hear more, also

was going to say, it's

another thing that keeps me

sane at the end of a busy day.

It's just a good way of unwinding,

sitting in, probably not sitting in

front of a computer, but sitting in

front of some musical instruments.

John and Connie: Absolutely.

All I was gonna say is if anyone

wants to hear more about the crazy

things that my dad decides to do on the

side, um, we have the Wonderful Podcast

as well, which is wonderfulpodcast.

com, and we talk about things

like house music on there, yoga

John and Connie: that up.

stuff.

John and Connie: I was remiss

in not mentioning that.

Yes, that you, you have

exactly a wonderful podcast.

Yes, you do.

So we'll link to that as well.

Thank you

John and Connie: Thank you so

great, really enjoyed it.

John and Connie: weather in Spain

and a wonderful weather in London.

great.

It's been our pleasure, really.

Thank you so much for

having us on the show.

Really enjoyed it.

John and Connie: well, thank you

for, and let's keep in touch.

We will.

Absolutely.

Definitely.

We'll keep you up to date with

progress in open banking in the US.

John and Connie: Fabulous.

Yes.

Thank you.

All right.