Shownotes
As a part of our new interview series, we get into the deep into the complex and deeply rooted Israeli-Palestinian conflict with our special guest, Mark Patinkin, a nationally syndicated columnist and Pulitzer Prize finalist, who brings firsthand insights from his new book, "The Holy Land at War."
We unpack the intricate dynamics of Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel. We'll explore the influence of Hamas and Hezbollah, Iran's role in the region, and the harrowing personal stories of those caught in the crossfire.
Mark shares his experiences from the ground, emphasizing the human aspect over political narratives and shedding light on the emotional toll this cyclical conflict takes on individuals. We'll address the ethical dilemmas journalists face, the rise of antisemitism and Islamophobia in the US, and the historical significance of Jerusalem.
Common Sense Moments
10:03 Personal odyssey explores conflict and heartfelt connections.
15:21 Peace unlikely with current leadership, hope persists.
16:16 Amnesty International: Netanyahu arrest warrant, Gaza genocide.
24:06 Hamas prolongs conflict, ignores resolution possibilities.
30:55 Gaza taken by Hamas; questions about vote.
35:52 Her homeland's ongoing war challenges resumed life.
37:49 Speech is dangerous, complex narratives require sensitivity.
45:54 Civilians followed Hamas, causing further destruction.
49:57 Addressing Islamophobia and antisemitism on East Coast.
57:04 Mothers united for peace across sectarian divide.
01:00:10 Authors value meaningful reader connections over bestseller status.
01:03:52 Books unbanned on Amazon after social outcry.
Common Sense Takeaways
- Hamas’s Tactics: We discuss how Hamas uses its civilian population as shields and leverages civilian casualties for political gain and international sympathy.
- Iran’s Influence: We highlight Iran's significant funding and influence over both Hamas and Hezbollah, aiming to destabilize the region without direct involvement.
- Gaza’s Governance History: A historical recount of Gaza's governance after Israel's withdrawal in 2005, from the Palestinian Authority's initial control to Hamas's rise post-2006 elections, following a civil war.
- Human Impact: Personal stories, such as that of Salwa Thibi and a Gazan hospital head who lost family members, illustrate the devastating human toll of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
- Journalistic Ethics: Ethical dilemmas faced by journalists in conflict zones are discussed, emphasizing the safety of sources and the impact of human stories shared by journalists.
- Personal Narratives and Extremism: Mark Patinkin shares stories from his book "Holy Land at War," detailing personal accounts of victims and their families while highlighting that not all Palestinians support Hamas and the possibility of peace with better leadership.
- International Criticism and Genocide Accusations: Discussions on international bodies like Amnesty International labeling Israel's actions as genocide, with counterpoints arguing a lack of appreciation for Israel's warning efforts and the broader context of casualties.
- Grassroots Peace Efforts: Mention of a Jewish-Arab school in Israel founded by a Jewish-Muslim couple, emphasizing grassroots peace initiatives as a means to influence governmental change and reduce extremism.
- Rise in Hate in the US: Exploration of the increase in Islamophobia and antisemitism in the U.S., drawing parallels to historical events like 1930s Germany and highlighting recent tragic incidents involving hate crimes.
- Book Challenges on Amazon: Discussion about the challenges faced by Mark Patinkin with Amazon regarding the advertising and listing of his book, "The Holy Land at War," due to its sensitive subject matter, and its reinstatement after public backlash on social media.
Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.
info@commonsenseohioshow.com
Copyright 2024 Common Sense Ohio
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/
Transcripts
Alright. Here we are. Common Sense Ohio, December 6, 2024. Now those have been following. We've been, we've adopted a new format of late, and the new format is basically about an hour long where we, we've chopped it up. We cover topics, and I think we, it's it's well received. So those who are giving us comments and likes and shares, we much appreciate it. And in order not to interrupt that format with, extra content, we are gonna create an additional series, which we're doing today.
Steve Palmer [:And this is an interview series, and those who have followed us know we've interviewed various people on the show. And, the idea here is to drop interview content, separately than the normal weekly show, and that's what we're doing today. We have a guest who's gonna join us momentarily. His name is Mark Patinkin. He's an author an American author, nationally syndicated columnist for the Providence Journal in Rhode Island. He was a Pulitzer Prize finalist for international reporting of his coverage of The Troubles in Northern Ireland. He has won 3 New England Emmy Awards for television commentaries, also the author of several books, one of which we're gonna talk about today. He's a graduate of Middlebury College.
Steve Palmer [:He lives in Providence, Rhode Island. He is, he's gonna join us here by Zoom momentarily, and we're gonna I think we're gonna focus on his new book that dropped back in July called The Holy War or The Holy Land at War, a journey through Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. And, you know, this is, obviously a timely topic. It's obviously an important topic. And what's interesting about this is it was actually boots on the ground. And I I think, from what I understand, he I confess. I didn't read the whole thing. But from what I understand, he gives a a very, middle of the road approach.
Steve Palmer [:Just goes in and just just interviews people. Mhmm. Right. And, we're gonna talk Let's them speak for themselves. Correct. Let's people speak for themselves. So so we, commentators, and we, judgers, is that the right word, judges, of those over there, can maybe get some boots on the ground and and actually get a look through what a reality lens. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And, hopefully, Mark is able to to shed some light on it. So we highly encourage everybody to check out the book, and here's Mark. We're gonna bring him on by Zoom and, and, see what he's gotta say about it. Alright. We have Mark by Zoom. Mark, how are you doing today? This is Mark again. Mark Patinkin, American author. Thanks for joining us, and, we really looking forward to this discussion.
Steve Palmer [:And I'll sort of let, Norm, take it from here. I know you've had some conversation with Mark, so let's, let's get things moving.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So, Mark, your your book, The Holy Land at War, came out July of this year. So very topical. Just this week, there has been a ceasefire between, Hezbollah in Israel and, one of the little towns, that the, the guy from what was he from? Flatbush or Queens or somewhere? Big, tall dude. He was in that town that's at the very northern tip of Israel. And my understanding is that that town and the Lebanese towns on the other side of the border are just completely destroyed.
Mark Patinkin [:Yeah. A lot of them are. That I know what you're talking about. You're talking about, the this guy's name is, Mike Ginsburg.
Norm Murdock [:Yes.
Mark Patinkin [:Mike Ginsburg. I don't know why I get the
Norm Murdock [:Mike Ginsburg.
Mark Patinkin [:Yeah. Mike Ginsburg. Typical kind of his of Israelis. A lot of Israelis came from, from the states, and, he was a swashbuckling guy. I met him, back in the nineties. Because part of this book, I was there during the intifada when places like the north of Israel were also targeted by terrorists. And what I did is I tracked down some of the same people I saw 30 years ago, and he was one of them. He sadly is no longer with us, but I'm sure, you know, I saw an early sign of what Israel was up against on that northern border.
Mark Patinkin [:He told me about terrorists sneaking through the fence of his kibbutz, which was right overlooking Lebanon. And he said, you know, he said it's a tragedy because he felt a lot of the Lebanese people are good people, but Hezbollah has kinda built themselves up into a state within a state. And that's happened on, that happened in Gaza too with Hamas that there's some decent people there. But, you know, what happens in the world, and I saw it in Lebanon years ago and in Gaza this time, if 10% of the people are extremists with guns, they could take over 90%, and that's what we're seeing in this world.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. The, and his son, was, killed in combat in Gaza. Is that correct? Mike's Mike?
Mark Patinkin [:You know, that was one of those ironies that I saw when I kinda looked up, when I went chasing down some of these folks that I saw 30 years ago. I, found his, decided to talk to his son since Mike had passed on just, from from a heart condition or something. And the tragedy was that his son on October 8th, he went, down to you know, the battle was still going on October 8th because 3,000 Hamas militants got into Israel. And, even when the alarms went off and the military got down, it was still another day or 2 before they could clean it out. And just to kinda remind as a reminder of the generational heartbreak of being an Israeli, his dad had, faced terrorists coming into his kibbutz from Lebanon, and his son died fighting terrorists coming into Israel from Gaza.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. It it just, it it it it and that that's what I found is a thread throughout, your book, and and and I imagine your your columns 33 years ago is the cyclical nature that the never ending, conflict that seems I I think you know, and I certainly don't know all of the history. But you had one Palestinian, I think, a mayor in the West Bank who traces his family back, like, 800 years. And he wonders, you know, who gave the right to to these settlers on the West Bank to to to pick out a piece of undeded land and pop up a whole apartment complex or a a condominium complex? And and so these people, both Israelis and the Palestinians, have this 1000 year old memory, and and and neither side seems willing to let that go. Or Yeah.
Mark Patinkin [:I think you're right. When I I think one of the interesting things of find of being there 30 years ago and finding the same folks today, it was supposed to be a then and now perspective how much has changed. Almost nothing has changed. And it's interesting you had mentioned that gentleman I met on the West Bank. His name was Adnan Hosseini. There he is. I saw him, that was back, years ago. He became a very he was very prominent then.
Mark Patinkin [:I met him on the West Bank. He was a voice of moderation saying, you know, there should be room for us to live together. And, he went on to become the the, Palestinian mayor of Jerusalem. And he, and I tried to track him down this year, but he was hesitant because it's so volatile and so, controversial what's going on that he just want didn't wanna put his stick his head out and, you know, into the middle of this swirling controversy. And so but he but he was a reflection of, you know, what I tried to do. I tried to look at both sides, and there's no question that from October 7th and on that Israel is under siege and fighting for its life. But I also went to the West Bank this time. Israelis told me don't go.
Mark Patinkin [:It's dangerous there. Definitely don't take the Palestinian bus, but I wanted to see it authentically. And, I, spent some time, on the West Bank talking to folks there, and, yes, they're under siege. And and when you say a minute ago, Norm, about how they've been there for a 1000 years, yes, this gentleman, Anand Hussaini, could trace his roots there 8, 900 years. And Jesus. You know, what's interesting is it's that the land around Jerusalem, even the land throughout the area, it's kinda tough land. It's limestone hills. Mhmm.
Mark Patinkin [:It's hard to carve a house out of that land, let alone a nation. And you wonder why people have been fighting over the this tough land for a 1000 years. And, well, you know, partly it's because the more you sacrifice to live in a place, the deeper your heart isn't in it. And it's also because of this history. It's where people's sons and husbands and died and their prophets, walked. And, you know, there's a little more to it, and we all know, we all know, you know, the passions of Jerusalem, I guess, is one way to say it. The fight today is in Gaza, but really it's about Jerusalem which draws the passions of the world. And one day, I went there to the very spot that is complex as this as this conflict is.
Mark Patinkin [:It's also simple, and you realize that when you go to the actual western wall, holiest place in in Judaism, the retaining wall of Solomon's Temple built 3000 years ago. And you look above that wall, where people are praying, and you see the Dome of the Rock, the golden dome where Mohammed ascended to heaven, one of the holiest places for, Muslims right on top of each other. And a few steps away is the her church of the holy sepulchral where Jesus died and rose. All in this one acre, the passions of billions of people are centered. And, that's partly what keeps this going. And I'll tell you, when you stand in that spot, you put your hand on that western wall. You can't well, I don't care what religion you are. You can't help but ask God for the things you want in this world, and you and you're pretty convincing in this this area with all three of these religions centered right there, then maybe that's one spot where God's gonna hear you.
Steve Palmer [:Mark Mark, I I I I'm fascinated by your approach to this, and I'll just read what, I I I confess. I looked up on Amazon just to see what they say about your book. And the last paragraph they write is, the holy land of war is not a political analysis, but a personal odyssey. One writer's attempt to bear witness through those touched by this long conflict using Arab sentence together, by history and geography. And, you you know, you said something just a minute ago. It's like these people have, on both sides, have a very, personal attachment to this land, this geography, and and I I find it fascinating your your comment that it's because they sort of toiled over it to make it livable. And and, you know, that gave that gives them a personal connection. And what I'm curious about is, did you gather any thoughts about not what the leaders have to say about, what the ultimate solution is, but what do the people feel about it? Do I mean, do do the people on the ground really have this kind of animosity to each other, or is that just coming from the leaders, or is it, a little bit of both? Or did you were you able to gather anything about it?
Mark Patinkin [:Well, it's a great question, Steve. And that's what this this book, Holy Land at War, is is all about. Look. I'm making I'm making you guys read it backwards. That's okay. Hebrew was read backwards too. But, that's what this book is all about. You know? It's, you you had a great comment there, Steve, about how what aside from what the reader the leaders feel, how do the people feel? And that was the inception of this book.
Mark Patinkin [:You know, at the very start, I began by, I'm a columnist in the in the northeast, a long time columnist on a newspaper, and I began by writing, armchair commentaries about what happened on October 7th, defending Israel, actually. And for that, I was, you know, brutally attacked just for defending Israel a day after October 7th. The city councilman in my home city of Providence called me a disgrace to humanity and got 500 likes on Twitter. And Brown University, that's my town too, Brown University fellow called me repugnant just because I was defending Israel. And but, you know, there's all this back and forth. Everybody is a commentator, and I'm an old school journalist at heart. So that's what started this project. I said, you know what? Everybody is in their armchair commenting.
Mark Patinkin [:I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go and see. And I don't wanna talk to the leaders. People hook me up with leaders. Somebody said, I'll get you a Palestinian, like, a government member, and somebody else said I could I could get you an interview with the with the head of the Israeli Navy. I didn't want any of that. I wanted to know what the people felt. And that's what this book's about.
Mark Patinkin [:I just you know, save yourself a ticket and the danger. I just say, come on with me. We're gonna go to Israel. We're gonna go to the West Bank. We're gonna go to Gaza where everything started, the Israel side of Gaza, and then we're gonna go. Wasn't easy to do, but, ultimately, it got inside Gaza, and inside the war zone itself with the explosions going off, near nearby as as I moved around in an Israeli Humvee. And, I just talked to the folks on the ground. And, you know, what I learned is, you know, I learned that it's a it's a it's a long conversation, which I'm glad we have this podcast.
Mark Patinkin [:The one thing I learned that's kind of, you know, I guess, doesn't bode well
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Mark Patinkin [:Is that on the Israeli side, let's just start there, in terms of what the folks on the ground think. The people that were attacked October 7th, and I went into the worst hit kibbutz, And I talked to others and heard horrific stories. I talked to a 16 year old young man who, his house was invaded by Hamas militants, and his mother had him hide in the floor in between a bed and a wall. And she lay on top of him, And they broke in and began firing all over the room, killed his mother, and he lay under his mother for 45 minutes to survive. That's not an uncommon story.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And blew apart blew apart his father with a grenade. Right? Same same Oh, yeah.
Mark Patinkin [:His father is the last thing he heard from
Norm Murdock [:you read it well, Norm. Yeah. In in the in the same room. Right, Mark?
Mark Patinkin [:Same room. The all 3, mom, dad, son, were trying to hold off Hamas and and they've as they have mom and son hid, the father was holding the door, and then they forced the door open, threw in a hand grenade. And the last word from the father was I've lost my arm, and then they broke in. And it was, that's the kind of story here. And so I tell that story just because those folks in that family and virtually every single family that was a co target on October 7th, they are the peacenics. They like the Palestinians. You see a button in their room. I I have it in the book somewhere.
Mark Patinkin [:I'm not sure I could find it on short notice that says, Palestinian lives matter. That's the kind of things that they cared about there. This is the parents, by the way, that we just talked about that were killed. That father right there was killed. His arm was blown off, and and, and there's the young man, 16 years old, standing in front of his uncle who's now his guardian. And, and these were the peacenks. They would take, Gazan folks, Palestinian folks to hospitals in Jerusalem. And do you talk to those folks now and they say my whole life was about peace with the Palestinians, and I don't know if we have anybody to make peace with as long as Hamas is in charge.
Mark Patinkin [:So the the answer to your question, Steve, on the Israeli side, even those that most wanted a 2 state solution or peace right now have, less faith in that as long as Hamas is in power. In terms of the other side, I've got to say, yes, there are extremists. Hamas and and and other terrorists. But I don't believe it when people say that everybody in Hamas, even the civilians are all all terrorists, all support some Hamas. I think there's a lot of good folks there. And same on the West Bank where I received a lot of hospitality. And they're just under the thumb of either incompetent leadership on the West Bank by the Palestinian authority or terrorist leadership in Gaza. And I have hope for peace if you could get good leadership because I believe in the folks on the Palestinian side even that the that with the the the the majority aren't terrorist supporters.
Steve Palmer [:They
Mark Patinkin [:just are trying to find a decent leadership.
Norm Murdock [:Mark, in the news this week, Amnesty International we know the international court has put out an arrest warrant for Netanyahu Yeah. Calling this a genocide in Gaza. And Amnesty International issued a press release this week, calling it a genocide. And you your book is very balanced. It's it's incredibly balanced, and and you worked, I I think, assiduously to make sure you portrayed the sentiments of both sides. In a couple of the Gazan stories, the young man who's working for the Red Cross, missus TB down there on the border with Israel from Save the Children, this, head of of a Gazan hospital who at 4 in the morning, he's at the hospital doing may you know, some medical procedure, gets a phone call in his home with something like 50 people in the in the area in and around his home are are destroyed. He he lost his daughter, his son, his grandchildren, and now he's in, Turkey, because, basically, there are no homes left in Gaza. Basically, the whole country is, displaced people, and, you portray all that.
Norm Murdock [:And I I think, it's a very fair book. It's very you're you're you're very balanced. Even though Israel suffered this horrible attack at the NOVA concert. And then in the kibbutzes, I think somewhere around 1200, 1250 people killed and, like, 250 captured. But then on the other hand, in Gaza, which has a population of, like, 2,300,000 people, and you cover this, it's it's it's almost like it's 95% destroyed and that people are all displaced, and it it just seems disproportionate, but yet I understand the Israeli I mean, this is a group of people from the holocaust, you know, even before in Russia with the pogroms, the the Munich Olympic tragedy, the various airplane hijackings, raid on Entebbe where Nathan Netanyahu's brother was killed. I mean, Israel has a lot to be suspicious of antisemitism around the world. They are very justified in reacting to this. But the one thing I wanna ask you and this might be very hard.
Norm Murdock [:It is hard. It's hard for me. But on this show, you know, like a year ago, my personal advocacy was for Israel to do what it could to be surgical in its response. And it has been anything but anything but surgical. And I want Israel to win this war with Hamas. But given the destruction of innocent good people, in their homes in in Gaza, like you said, can there ever be peace now with this
Mark Patinkin [:Yeah. These are good. The great we should be interviewing Norm. You guys
Norm Murdock [:Oh, come on. Come on. No. No. I just but you've met these people.
Mark Patinkin [:I did.
Norm Murdock [:And this this very educated head of the hospital, how does he ever go back to Gaza?
Mark Patinkin [:That's him. That's him right there. Yeah. He was the one who, you know, was in the hospital trying to save his fellow Gazans, errant bomb, or bad intelligence hit a home where 50 of his family members were replaced, and most of them were killed. It's it's just an unthinkable tragedy. And here's a good young man who works for the Red Cross. Yes. Some people criticize the Red Cross for, you know, not, visiting the hostages, but that's that's they can't control it if Hamas are terrorists and won't let them.
Mark Patinkin [:And he's just he tells me about how nothing's left of where he grew up in Gaza and his best friend, best guy he said you'd ever have coffee with has been killed as well as many others, and they're just trying to get by there. And so, you know, I, I spent a lot of time in Gaza. And when you say, you know, what have they done to Gaza? This is a photo I took from outside in Israeli Humvee as we were going through Gaza, and that's what that's what it looks like. It's a, it's an area of destruction. You know? Let me just talk about that then. Let me talk about to answer your question by the time I was inside Gaza. It was very hard to get inside Gaza. You can't go as an international journalist on your own or even with the humanitarian group.
Mark Patinkin [:You gotta go with the Israeli army. And even that, only a handful get in every month, and I managed to do it. It was me and a guy named Charlie Daggett with CBS News, Fox News, and a couple international correspondents went in there in a Israeli Humvee. And, and we went tearing down, man, they drive fast. Israeli soldiers drive fast. I'll tell you. But they have to because these bombs are hitting so close that it shakes the ground. And, smoke sweeps over you moments later.
Mark Patinkin [:And we went tearing down the border fence and then took a hard left turn right through one of the same openings that, Hamas had blasted open. And I'll tell you it's an irony that the Israelis are attacking through the very openings in the fence that Hamas initially attacked. There's me in the in the front with, with shades on and a few other journalists there on our way in in an open air Humvee. And soon as we got inside, we stopped at a tunnel. They I couldn't get in the tunnel because they blew it up the night before. That's me at the tunnel with, an Israeli officer named, Niraz who, Nir. I'm sorry. Major Nir, who's 64, but he still wanted to volunteer because that's how Israel is.
Mark Patinkin [:It's only 7,000,000 Jews, 9,000,000,000 people, and everybody has to do their part to save the country. It's a it is a destroyed environment. And at one point, we ended up at a school. This is lieutenant Angie who took us on the Humvee, and we're at this school. 3 stories high, 2 wings. They had a clean Hamas out of there. Even after that, some Hamas members came up out of a shaft underneath, the school and killed 3 of his men because, you know, the way these tunnels work, it's not one opening at one end and one at the other. There's 30 shafts that go up all in the middle and come up in and here's the answer to your question of why there's this much much destruction.
Mark Patinkin [:Those shafts come up in homes. Those shafts come up in health facilities. Those shafts come up in schools like this school here, and they come up even in mosques. And so did Israel have to do this much destruction? I gotta tell you something, Norm. Hamas wanted Israel to do this much destruction. Hamas wanted its people to be killed because they felt they couldn't win. They knew they couldn't win a military war, but they felt they could win a war of the mind, a war of public opinion. And that's what they're doing.
Mark Patinkin [:They wanted they when we talk about civilian shields, it's so extreme when you go there. They are hiding be underneath civilians, behind civilians. They want civilians to be killed. They wanted that doctor's house to be hit by an air ent bomb because that's a PR victory for them. And, you know, the question is, in war, they will shoot at you from a home. They will shoot at you from buildings, all private homes and buildings. And in in modern war, you know, you don't just try to sneak up and preserve the building to shoot back at the bad guys. What you do is you put a artillery shell into the building, and that's what Israel has been forced to do.
Mark Patinkin [:And I will tell you, when you go through Gaza, a part of you does say just as you said, Norm, did Israel have to do this much damage? But a bigger part of you says, and I'll tell you, man, it hits you right in the gut when you see it, when you're in the middle of it. And you say to yourself, how is it possible that Hamas doesn't stop this war tomorrow by releasing the hostages and laying down their arms? It would stop it tomorrow. It could have stopped it on October 10th or 9th. It could have stopped it, but they don't want to stop it. And it makes so clear in your gut that they don't care about their homeland. They don't care about their people. They're jihadists who want to use and leverage the destruction in order to be able to win the the war of public opinion.
Norm Murdock [:Mark, can Mark, hold on one second. Go ahead, Steve.
Steve Palmer [:Mark, the you you've you've given me an interesting thought here, at least a a a an observation. So Hamas has used basically their civilian population as a shield, but you've taken it a step further. It's not just that they want to create a shield so their own peep so Hamas doesn't get hurt. They want their their they're creating sacrifices so they can then use the deaths of their people as political leverage, from the rest of the world. I think that's what you're saying. It's like, ideologically, if if their people if Israel is forced to kill their people. So then the question is, are the people are are the people on the hospitals, the people in the schools, in the mosques, are do they understand that this is going on? And is this creating animosity towards Israel or perhaps even their own, or Hamas itself? I mean, do the people
Mark Patinkin [:get it? It's obviously complicated. And, you know, someone like the, that that, that doctor that I showed you the picture of that you brought up, Norm, you know, he'll he'll he'll he was disgusted with Israel and he said they talk about them being a supposedly ethical military and look what they did to my family. So it's very complicated, but there's a much larger sense of of resentment in Hamas than you would think. It's just no one dare say it because even now, Hamas has enough control in Gaza that if anybody speaks out against Hamas in Gaza, they'll be targeted. Wow. So nobody dares speak out. And once again, that goes back to what I said earlier. If 10% of the people are extremists with guns, they can control the other 90%.
Mark Patinkin [:But my prediction is that once this war is over, if Hamas if the world, if America, if allows Israel to truly degrade and clean out Hamas and do the finish the job, you'll hear an enormous amount of resentment towards Hamas. Because look what they've done. Look what they brought in their own people. They brought a destruction of their homeland. And it wasn't a bad homeland. Yes. There was a lot of poverty there, but the characterizations of of, Gaza as an open air prison, that's just not true. 100 of 1000 worked in Israel every day.
Mark Patinkin [:Tens of 1,000 traveled, if not more, every year. There was free passage. There were beautiful parts of Gaza that I saw that's, you know, 20 mile, waterfront on the Mediterranean. And Hamas turned, as we've heard so often, all the 1,000,000,000 of dollars of aid into tunnels instead of improvements. But there was still it was it wasn't a bad place, and they've destroyed it. And there's gonna be resentment at Hamas for that for a long time.
Norm Murdock [:May may may I ask, I I don't know much about Hamas. And, you know, and I'm sure the Mossad, has, you know, a a a an excellent grip on, what constitutes Hamas, and the Israeli government understands it. May I ask you, is are the leaders of Hamas Iranian, or are they Palestinians? Or in other words, have they like Hezbollah in Lebanon, are they are they Iranians and Syrians who have, you know, asserted themselves on a, if you will, a a passive, Palestinian population and have amped them up? Or or is Hamas basically a Palestinian organization? I don't really understand what Hamas
Mark Patinkin [:is. It's really complicated, isn't it? Yes. Hamas is, is really, been funded by, by Iran. You know, here's the bad bottom line. Iran is the bad actor. Iran is is the most destabilizing force in the Middle East and probably beyond. And the reason they're destabilizing forces, they said to themselves, what we're we're not gonna engage in war ourselves, but we want to have proxies engage in war for us against our enemies, especially Israel. But also, you know, to be honest, also in in a place like Syria.
Mark Patinkin [:And so what what the reason Hamas has been able to, create themselves and get all that money for tunnels is because Iran has funded it. Same with Hezbollah. Saw the rise of Hezbollah in in, Lebanon years ago when I was there covering the, civil war in the late 19 eighties. In fact, I was almost kidnapped then by Hezbollah, and, that all came from Iran. I'm not a fan of Iran because they almost kidnapped me. And,
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Patinkin [:I was remember I was there. There's a guy named John McCarthy who was a a Sky News guy. The 2 of us were the last western reporters on the Muslim side of Beirut. And one night in the late 19 eighties, and we said, we gotta get out of here. It's getting hot, and the westerners were being grabbed by Hezbollah. And he he said, I'm going to the airport tomorrow. I said, don't do that. That goes to a Hezbollah neighborhood.
Mark Patinkin [:And, and he said, no. It's it's the quickest way out, and I'll have bodyguards. And so I had this great Muslim driver named Mehdi who had cats since, who'd save me from a kidnapping when, you know, car stopped in front of us on a narrow street the day before, and 4 men got out and began running right at us. Man, Mehdi put that car in reverse, like, within an instant before I registered what had happened. We were screaming out of there. And then we, wove through back streets that next morning to get out and went over the green line to the Christian side. I gave him a $400 tip. My my cheek is still scratchy from how hard he kissed me.
Mark Patinkin [:And, and, then I took an 8 hour ferry to Cyprus and flew to Tel Aviv. The next day, John McCarthy was kidnapped and held for 5 years.
Norm Murdock [:Wow.
Mark Patinkin [:Big story in the UK, chained to a radiator.
Norm Murdock [:Well, and that that that Terry guy, the the, the Terry Anderson saying Anglican. Anglican.
Mark Patinkin [:Yeah. Yeah. These are extremists who have no rules. And so
Norm Murdock [:Let me was a
Mark Patinkin [:long way of saying, I saw the rise of Hezbollah. It's came from Iran. Let me follow-up. Hamas. It came it's all from Iran.
Norm Murdock [:Let me follow-up. So in 2,005, right, they get Israel negotiated with the PLO, and and, it gave them some sort of, you know, some sort of governmental even though it's light and Israel still is occupies in in a way the West Bank very definitely. But, the PLO and Israel worked out where the Palestinians would get the Gaza Strip as well as the West Bank, and they're not attached. You know, it's kind of like, you know, it it's kinda like us in Puerto Rico or something. You know, like, you you the the 2 are not contiguous. And I think your book said within 1 year, Hamas had taken over Gaza Strip. So how did that happen? I don't know historically. Like, was there a vote, or did they just militarily, tear down the the Palestinian authority in in Gaza Strip and take it over? Because that seems to be what radicalized Gaza.
Norm Murdock [:Up until then, the Palestinian authority for that 1 year, they were titularly in charge of that area.
Mark Patinkin [:Yeah. You're right. You know, I saw Gaza when the Israelis were, as I I went on patrol in Gaza in an Israeli jeep in the 19 nineties when they still occupied it. And that's the guy. His name is Oded Turban. That's in 1991. I took that photo. We our jeep was hit by hundreds of rocks of kids that were throwing rocks at us.
Mark Patinkin [:Some as young as, like, 4 years old. I took this photo. There's a 4 year old kid, maybe 4, in Gaza throwing a rock at our Israeli jeep. And, but, this guy just showed you, he said he wanted Israel out of there. He said, let's give let's give the Palestinians the equivalent of a, 2, their own state. Israelis completely left in 9 in 2,005. The military even dragged out Israeli settlers who were resisting. It was all Palestinian at that point run by the more moderate Palestinian authority.
Mark Patinkin [:One government, 2 territories, as you said. West Bank, Gaza, not attached, but one govern one government, the more moderate Palestinian authority. The problem is the Palestinian authority, they're not they're not they're a corrupt organization. The guy that just actually took me, that I spent a day in the West Bank with a couple months ago, he sent me a note that's saying the Israelis are cracking down harder and harder and life's miserable here, but our our leaders are thieves too. So people don't like the Palestinian authority. They're corrupt. So in 2005, there was an election. And Hamas, won about half the seats in in what would be called the Palestinian parliament in Gaza.
Mark Patinkin [:And so it was a shared government between Palestinian authority and Hamas. But guess what began to happen? Hamas began to throw Palestinian authority members off of roofs. And then there was an actual civil war between Hamas, the extremist part of the Palestinian leadership, and the Palestinian authority, the corrupt but moderate. And, basically, Hamas staged a coup in Gaza and drove the Palestinian authority out of Gaza. So there was a election in 2,005, shared government in 2,006, a Palestinian civil war in 2007, and the, Palestinian and the Hamas took over and has run it ever since.
Norm Murdock [:And you said in your book, there were, like, 4 incursions by the IDF, the Israeli, army, into Gaza, between then and the October 7th. Various intifadas and various, conflicts where the army of Israel's army actually went into Gaza, conducted, you know, there there would be 151600 Gazans killed and and maybe a 100 or 200 Israeli soldiers killed, and then they would back out and, and and leave Gaza again to its own devices.
Mark Patinkin [:That's true. It was, this is you know, people forget that this is about the 4th or 5th Israeli Gaza war. This is, of course, is the biggest one, but there were others where a 1,000 or more were killed. And I tell that story like, I like to tell the stories to individual people. When I was there in the 19 nineties, I met a young Palestinian woman named Salwa Thibi, who was working in Gaza. I met her there. This is a picture of her in better times. Not when I met her.
Mark Patinkin [:I met her in her twenties. That that's her in better times. She's a humanitarian worker, a great lady, and, I tracked her down. That's part of what this book is. 31 years later, I, tracked tracked her down, this, lovely Palestinian woman here. And, you know where I found her today? I found her displaced and living in a tent. She sent me this picture in Gaza. That's where she is today.
Mark Patinkin [:And I, I bring this up to answer your question, Norm, because, her story is the story of all gods and people. She she, through some posts that she herself put on her various humanitarian sites, she talks about, my god, we've now got another war. We are we are we're we we get and then they they were praying for a ceasefire. There would be 3 hour cease fires where they'd go out to try to get bread, but the lines to the few bakeries were 4 hours. So she they that's the kind of life they were living. And she's seen, over the years, her homeland in war four times. But this time, she said, after every other time, I I felt that we could resume life. This time, I don't know if we can.
Mark Patinkin [:The disruption is so widespread. Spread. Well, Mark You just told me that by text a couple weeks ago.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Mark, I want to ask you. I think, with the access you had to individuals, to citizens, but from a journalist perspective, how do you take in that you that potentially everyone you talk to could be killed because you've talked to them?
Mark Patinkin [:You mean whether or not if I talk to say a Palestinian, whether or not that they could be targeted or
Norm Murdock [:something like that.
Brett Johnson [:How's a journal how do you as a journalist absorb that? Because you want the story, and they they're willing to tell you, but at the same time, they could be targeted because they talk to you. You you bring that up in the book. Some don't wanna talk and don't wanna talk too much because of that the retribution. I mean Yeah. How do you use a journalist work with that?
Mark Patinkin [:You just you you you it's a good question. And, you know, usually in a case like this, though, it would be, say, on the West Bank. It would be when I asked people what they thought about Hamas. Yeah. And they'd say, I can't tell you. You know, I I I'm uncomfortable saying that. You know, I support Hamas, they'd say. I'd say, what do you really think? Yeah.
Mark Patinkin [:And they'd say, well, you just can't say this or it would put me in tremendous danger, but they're horrific. They're terrible. Wow. They're like they dragged us into war, and they're extremist jihadists, and we're not we're not all jihadists. And that's why I believe there's there's hope. And so, you know, I've all long thought that whether it's a whether it's just a mild story where you're doing some story about, I don't know, some some, some grandma and she says something that you think, oh, she just she said that that might not go over well at her next Thanksgiving dinner, what she just said about her her nephew. I say, you really want me to quote that? And and and and you kinda realize as a journalist that it's your job Yeah. To take care of people.
Mark Patinkin [:If it's a if it's a politician and they say something that's, that's embarrassing, the the politicians know the rules and you quote them. But if it's regular people, your job is to look after them and not say, oh, that's a great quote. That'll be a good story. You gotta be a human first and look after folks. And and sometimes I've told folks, even I told them over there this time, I'd say to Palestinians in particular, do you really want me to quote that? Couldn't that get you? And they'd say, yeah. Maybe you shouldn't quote that.
Brett Johnson [:Thank thank you. I appreciate you putting the background to that because that means a lot to me reading what you put because and I I and I did wanna add, I appreciate the little lifestyle pieces you put in the book. The cement pill boxes for the bombings and and the just that they have an app to let them know where bombings are.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. The red alert app. Unbelievable. You know The Israeli citizens have this app on their phone to let them know when there's missiles in the air. Exactly. It's incredible.
Mark Patinkin [:Yeah. That that was you know, you're right. I I'll I'll see if I could find that. I actually took a picture because we were going into the the area, the worst hit kibbutz. We went to the Nova site with 250 people were killed. You know how we have apps to where you could, like, make a reservation at a restaurant or something? This isn't a government app. This is just a commercial app in Israel. This is the if, I'm not sure how well you could see it, but basically
Norm Murdock [:Red alert. Yeah.
Mark Patinkin [:It says, you know, red alert at confrontation line area Shlomi. And, this thing began to go off. Red alert. Red alert. As I was driving with my guide near Gaza, and it meant missile incoming. And my guide says you know what his first thing he says is he says, don't worry. We have, like, 90 seconds, and there's lots of bomb shelters around here. I'm like, 90 seconds.
Norm Murdock [:Jesus. What are
Brett Johnson [:you talking about? Even saying that to an alert.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Mark Patinkin [:You know
Brett Johnson [:what I mean? And and think of the cons consistency of that every day. You know, how bad we have our phones going off just for text alerts. They have this red alert going off probably
Steve Palmer [:every day. I'm wondering if the the people appreciate that Israel is doing this or that this is known? I mean or is it or is it, does that does that quell the some of the animosity? Does that that sort of separate the bad government people from the normal everyday people with boots on the ground and trying to just live their lives and get through this with their kids? I mean, do they appreciate that that is like, to us, that's sort of unprecedented. Right? Like, we we weren't doing that in World War 2. We weren't sending over, warnings. Hey. Look. We're gonna bomb your city. You better get some shelter.
Steve Palmer [:We just did it. So, I mean, what is the what is the impression of the folks on the ground with that?
Mark Patinkin [:You're talking about the Palestinians?
Steve Palmer [:Correct.
Mark Patinkin [:Yeah. They you know, they're they're they're bitter about what they feel is Israeli, disproportionate response. Yeah. They're bitter about they've been displaced 5 or 6 times. You know, even if there's that factor and there is a factor, and that's why, there is a factor of Israel doing door knocks on the top of buildings with the non exploding bombs and let people tell people they better get the hell out of there or calling millions of phones, to tell people to move or telling people to move from one area to the other. You're still being displaced. You're in horrific conditions. You're 50 people living in a home, and, you know, you're gonna be bitter about it no matter what.
Mark Patinkin [:So is there an appreciation that Israel is trying to warn? That you don't hear that a lot, to be perfectly honest with you, but in the scheme of things, that's why I think the international court is preposterous. I think it's run by, anti Israeli. The prosecutors and anti Israeli guy who, by the way, has, accusations of sexual harassment and, against him. So he's a compromised figure. And as far as, Amnesty International, you know, how often have we they they just said Israel's guilty of genocide. Look, I was there, and it's terrible. There's lots there's been a lot of deaths that when I was in when I was in Gaza in, 1991, there were 6, 700,000 people there. There's now 2,200,000 people, and, that's not genocide.
Mark Patinkin [:It's not, they're 40, 45,000, they say have been killed, many of them militant. So that's often overlooked in that figure, maybe half or at least a third or more have been militants, and it's it's it's just it's not the equivalent of it's not actual genocide. Israel's trying not to have mass killings while trying to root out these folks that are hiding underground underneath civilians and, jeez, you know? Why are we not talking more about Syria where half a1000000, not 40,000, half a1000000 people have been killed? Why aren't we talking about Sudan where 100 of 1000 have been killed and 10,000,000 now are on the verge of starvation? Why are we talking about Ethiopia where their fight with Tigray province has led to, probably a 100000 deaths and also millions displaced? This is by a long shot, not the worst destruction.
Norm Murdock [:Let let let me debate with you just just for a second. And I I think the answer to that question is because the Jewish people are so intelligent, have such a tremendous culture, have have such ethics. You know, lots of doctors, lots of businessmen, lots of lawyers. Just, you know, the the this is unfair. It's kind of like what we say about America. I think the standard for Israel is way higher than it would be for Assad over in Syria. We ex we you know, you know what I'm saying? We expect mister Netanyahu to be, you know, on another level than this butcher over in Syria who who, by the way, has pogroms against Christians. I mean, you know, they're killing Catholics, left and right all across Africa and the Middle East.
Norm Murdock [:You know? And I I keep waiting for pope Francis to grab that, you know, ring and and start saying something. But but be that as it may, your book talks about a sense in Israel of collective guilt. And I think where that probably comes from in Gaza is these tunnels. It's like Okinawa during World War 2 where the Japanese had tunnels throughout all these, you know, territories. And so people like the administrator of the hospital and and the the the principal of that school, they must have known that these tunnels were being constructed beneath their, you know, mosques and and hospitals and schools and homes. And so they knew there was evil, you know, in intent, and funds were being diverted from humanitarian from feeding Gazans into putting concrete tunnels underneath, you know, the ground, for future combat. And so there's this sense that, well, the Gazans have it coming to them. They knew that this was going on.
Norm Murdock [:And I just wonder how justified that really is. How many of these Gazans do you think were really in the pocket of Hamas and and and really sympathize with Hamas? Or do you think they are they were a captive people and they couldn't say anything or they'd be shot? I don't know which
Mark Patinkin [:I don't know which for the second? I mean, there are certainly a lot of supporters of what Hamas did, and I personally interviewed people. I went to the Israel's big I mean, the biggest hospital in the Middle East, where hundreds of of IDF, Israeli Defense Force soldiers are being treated. And when I went there, I was there about a 100 days after the, the attack, and I talked to one of the last people who was still in the hospital being treated after the, October 7th attack. This is her, and, she's a a young doctor, and she was, they broke into her house, and they threw, like, a burning propane tank into the bathroom where she was hiding with her family. And and 100 days and I bring that up because you know who did it? In that case, that wasn't Hamas. They didn't have guns with them. They were just civilians who followed Hamas in and continued the destruction. So there were many cases of civilians following into Israel to to slaughter.
Mark Patinkin [:And we all saw the pictures of, of civilians celebrating deliriously as, Jewish bodies were paraded through Gaza after that October 7th day. So there's certainly a lot of people that support the, Hamas in there. But in terms of the fact that everybody knew, you know, there's a lot of things you read about somebody's a good person in Hamas saying that there was some digging going on behind their house, and they were just told by these militants, don't ask questions. Don't worry about it. They knew they didn't dare. Mhmm. And so I think, again, they were captive. And if I had a guess, I know this is a general guess, but, again, having been in in, Lebanon and talked to folks there that were underneath the thumb of Hezbollah and the same in in Gaza, I'd guess that about a third or so of Gazans are hardcore Hamas supporters.
Mark Patinkin [:I guess a third of them are absolutely horrified by Hamas, and the other third just wanna be left alone. They could swing either way and just live their lives. And so I I I I think that I'd have hope for peace because I believe that most people aren't extremists. But, again, if 10 or 20% are extremists with guns, they could control and hold captive, to use your word, Norm, the general population.
Norm Murdock [:Mark, Mark, you Go ahead, Steve.
Steve Palmer [:I guess I should ask, you know, as you talk to these people on both sides, both the Palestinians and the Israelis or the Israelis on the sort of the the people, did you get any sense of how they feel about the American intervention into it, whether, whether the aid that the western or or that we're sending over that, people are alleging is getting diverted and and stolen. I mean, what's their general sense of what the rest of the world thinks of what's going on? Or did they even care? Or is it too is it just too much chaos?
Mark Patinkin [:I mean, how did the both the Palestinians, the Israelis feel about America?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. And what we're doing or not doing?
Mark Patinkin [:Yeah. Well, you know, you go into you go into, the, the West Bank, which is what I did. And the first thing, my my footsteps echoed when I went to Bethlehem. A lot of people think Bethlehem is, oh, that's, Jesus. That must be right next to, the western wall in the heart of Israel. No. It's in the heart of the West Bank. It's very it's a very, West Bank town, Bethlehem.
Mark Patinkin [:And, when I went there, the first thing I that happened to me when, there I am in Bethlehem interviewing a, interviewing a, Palestinian in a Palestinian refugee camp. And the first thing that I encountered were these cab drivers. I came out of this long border tunnel with one way turnstiles. And as soon as they they said, what are you doing here? We haven't seen a westerner here in months. And I said, I'm a journalist. Soon as I said, I'm a journalist, they started hitting me with why is America send giving Israel bombs to kill children in Gaza. And you hear that everywhere in the West Bank. So there's a there's that feeling over there.
Mark Patinkin [:And, but on the Israeli side, they, they really, they value America's support.
Norm Murdock [:May I may I ask, you you you wrote very beautifully, about, the result of some Islamophobia by that crazy man from upper New York that could that moved to your area and, shot those 3 young, college students. And one of one of whom is, you know, he's from the waist down, he's paralyzed. And you wrote beautifully about that. And yet in that same area, you know, you have the heads of, by area, I mean East Coast. You got Princeton, Yale, Harvard. Those, those presidents of the universities testifying before Congress that that they weren't gonna do anything about antisemitism on their campus. And I'm like, I don't know what I don't know how you feel, Mark. But but your ears to the ground, you've been out there on the East Coast.
Norm Murdock [:You were there during 9/11. Is there a lot of Islamophobia in America in your opinion, or was that a rare case? And in your opinion, is there a lot of antisemitism running through America? Or, again, is that kind of rare? But we're seeing it in the news because, you know, the the the the the unblinking eye of cable TV, you know, never sleeps. And and and and so when question. Yeah.
Mark Patinkin [:Great question.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Please.
Mark Patinkin [:I did spend just to start with that young man that was a terrible heartbreaking case. 3 college students, from the West Bank. You know, this is an amazing story of young men rising from this, oppressed area of the world, the West Bank, because they went to a very prominent school there called the Friends, school, the Ramallah Friends School. And this this young man, here he is with his parents there. He's an American mom that married a Palestinian guy. That young man went to Brown, goes to Brown still does. Goes to Brown University. Now he's in a wheelchair.
Mark Patinkin [:He was in Burlington, Vermont, just, last Thanksgiving, almost exactly 1 year ago, and he was, with 2 college friends. This is the night before the shooting. And there he is with his uncle and 2 other college friends from Trinity and, and I think Swarthmore University, if I'm right. And, some hater saw them walking with the kaffirs on and shot all 3 of them, and one of them is paralyzed. And so what I did when I went to Israel, I said, I wanna see his life. And so I went to downtown Ramallah. There's downtown Ramallah. Unlike Bethlehem, very vibrant place.
Mark Patinkin [:Lots of life going on there. Ran into a lot of great folks, and I went through Ramallah with this young man's childhood friend who's also a Brown University kid. He made it there too. Great guy named Abu Dushad. He showed me the best ice cream in Palestine, in the in Ramallah. And, and I saw that how proud these folks were. He's so proud of Ramallah, which is a vibrant place, the kind of capital of the West Bank. But this tragedy happened in America where his parents said, don't come home for Thanksgiving.
Mark Patinkin [:It's too dangerous here. There's a war going on and Israeli crackdown here in Ramallah on the West Bank. Stay in America. We will be safe. And ironically, they all 3 of them were shot, and one is paralyzed now from the waist down. And so that was a rogue event, I think. But, yeah, of course, you could say that the hatred that is in the air, just as in many cases, triggers, people that are borderline mentally unstable to act out. And in terms of your general question of is there a rise in Islamophobia and antisemitism? Yeah.
Mark Patinkin [:I think there's probably both, but I will say it's particularly frightening for Jews to see the, because they're much more prominent. The pro Palestinian rallies and college campuses and in downtowns and the shouting to globalize the intifada, and I I was there during the intifada. Globalizing intifada means put bombs on a a civilian buses. I think a lot of Jews in America in particular just feel this is a dark time almost, not blatantly, but almost reminiscent of is Germany in the late 19 thirties with some just the doors have swung back open on expressing antisemitism. They feel that the, whole anti Israeli stance is bled over into antisemitism with attacks and throughout the western world. Just yesterday, there was an attack in Melbourne, Australia, arson and a synagogue. The Jews feel they're being targeted. And in fact, in this book, one of that that young man that I just told you about that lay under his mom.
Mark Patinkin [:Yes. And, the way I I found out about that is I had a high school friend who said my niece was murdered. Just sent I hadn't heard from him in 10 years. I get a note because he knows I'm a journalist. My niece was murdered. It's on October 8th or 9th, and it turned out to be the mother of the young man that was hiding under the bed. But I bring that up in this, to answer your question, Norm, because this high school friend, it was just a very kind of secular Jew and high school turned into more of an orthodox Jewish guy. And he today, when he wears his black hat, he says he's terrified that a car is gonna, like, swerve and hit him.
Mark Patinkin [:And his wife did not want their names even mentioned in the book because she was scared they would be targeted as Jews, and he now, as a Jew, sleeps every night with a loaded gun next to his next to his bed because that's, that's the mindset of many Jews in America even today.
Norm Murdock [:Wow. So you covered Ireland in a in another book.
Mark Patinkin [:Northern Ireland. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And what ended up solving, if you will, that 1998, you know, resolution in, in Ireland? And my my my great analogy. My my my dear, Irish mother, all of us kids suspect she actually sent money to the IRA. But but at the same time, she's handing out money to, illegal immigrants down there in Arizona and giving them water. So my my mother was complicated. But but, it was the mothers, wasn't it? Wasn't it women from from Catholics and protestant women that got together and they told the IRA and the British government, we've had enough of this. Excuse it. Shit.
Norm Murdock [:We've had enough of this. Generations of of our sons have died. It's gonna take something like that between Jewish and Palestinian mothers, isn't it? Yeah. That was it.
Mark Patinkin [:It was something like that. An element. I talk when I I was in Northern Ireland way back when maybe some people don't remember this. You have a good memory. Northern Ireland, obviously, different from Ireland. That was a British province unlike Ireland, and, it's half Catholic, half Protestant, and a vicious kind of kind of a low grade war was going on there for for a long time. It's, and it's it's, 77 years, really, the same amount of time since Israel now has been founded. And I went there during and talked to both sides.
Mark Patinkin [:There were men. When I was in Northern Ireland, they had these things called sectarian walls. I you don't hear about those, but there were these 30 foot high concrete walls between Protestant and Catholic neighborhoods because that was the only way they could stop the killing. Wow. And, ultimately, there were there was a mother from each side that had lost a son and they connected, and they began to start a movement of mothers and other civilians to call out to the government. That was one of many elements that came into what was ultimately a a peace resolution. But part of it was part of it in that case was, I guess, you could would call it a distant example of what could happen in Israel and Palestine, the Palestinian territories. That was, there was a bit of there was some some government, sharing.
Mark Patinkin [:There was a sharing of government. There was a coalition government there, and that achieved some kind of peace finally in Northern Ireland. And whether or not and and you could have the same kind of thing in Israel, I will say I ended on that kind of a note. The the book ended on, Area of Hope where I went to a very rare thing, a a Jewish American I'm sorry, a Jewish, Arab school. There's very few of those in Israel, that there is this one couple. They look like a couple of latter day hippies.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Patinkin [:Ora and Ihab. They met and literally married the next day, 20 years ago or so. And, he's Muslim. She's Jewish. Their parents didn't talk to him for 10 years because they married out of the faith, and they felt the only hope for the future was to start a school of both faiths. There's Aura with one of her, Muslim teachers with kids in the background. And, they said we have to live our principles. It's not enough just to tell our kids at dinner to respect the other.
Mark Patinkin [:They have to live it. And so, and I'll tell you one thing. The way I ended the book is I said, I'm gonna count all those kids in the background to see how many Jews and how many Arabs there are, but you can't tell one from the other. Mhmm. And it shows kind of the promise that that moment that maybe it is individuals with this kind of a, that kind of a school with that kind of a dedication that is part of the hope of the future. But it's I don't think Israel, to be honest, is I believe that it could happen eventually. I believe that the war and what Hamas did on October 7th has set back the prospects for it.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Well, look, before we wrap up, I it's I was just sort of brushing through some of these reviews, and and I think your goal, as you set out as a journalist, was to be balanced, was to be fair, was to sort of give a personal, nonpolitical analysis or assessment of this and just document what you found, and that is what everybody is saying you've done. So whatever the goal was, it it seems like you've achieved it. You know, you you see these words like, you know, non biased, nonpolitical, very personable, humanitarian, hopeful. So it looks like you've achieved your what you set out to do, and, the word is getting out.
Mark Patinkin [:Well, I appreciate you guys, having me on, and I appreciate you saying that, very much, Steve. You know, the thing is a book's a big mountain to climb, and and I will say the thing that touches an author the most is just to hear one person, you guys. And if I'm one reader and you feel your book speaks to them, that that really touches you. And and, obviously, as an author, you you hope, for bestseller to him, but you more you just hope that maybe your book will help a few people understand. And and as I you know, I think the book's kinda like, this this podcast. You guys are really good at what you do. You guys just you know, there's some some interviews I've done where people have a list of questions. You guys just go with the conversation, and it's and the book's kinda the same way.
Mark Patinkin [:I decided to do a book that's kinda like your podcast. I I kinda feel I felt, you know, instead of just talking to with analysis or talking to, leaders. I was just gonna write this book like I'm sitting down at a bar with a friend who says, hey. What's it like over there? And that seems to be your approach, and that's my book's approach. It's just you know, it's what's it like over there, man? I'll say, oh, man. Yeah. You wouldn't believe it. So I'm charging down near Gaza in this, and it's crazy, man.
Mark Patinkin [:And so I wrote it kinda like that. And so, hopefully, it'll speak to people, and and, I do think that far more than all the words you see every day with people, you know, yelling at each other on Twitter or analysis in the newspapers or other news sites, this is a unusual book. It is balanced. But even more than that, I just don't talk to the experts. I let you just I take you with me through Israel, through the West Bank, and through Gaza itself. Come on with me. Take this walk with me, and you save yourself a plane ticket. And and I think this tells you a little bit just kind of what it's like, everything from what people had to say to how to how the weather was.
Steve Palmer [:And I think what's what's interesting or ironic may not be the right word, but what is, what connects it all is your approach at this book and what and thank you for the compliment on the podcast. I think our approach to the podcast and the goal of it is, to help bridge gaps and bridge these ideologies. And and it's I think it's not lost on us here anyway that what you're describing, what you try to do is what is ultimately has to be the solution. The people on the ground just have to learn to get along. And and and that hopefully will matriculate up to, the governments and the leaders who are making the decision and get rid of some of this corruption.
Mark Patinkin [:Yeah. It's, it does have to bubble up from the people. And, again, I gotta be honest with you. I don't wanna be you know, talk about kumbaya and that everything's gonna be okay. Even the peacemakes in Israel is saying, you know, peace is probably further away than I've ever seen it because of what's happened. But it's a reminder that, that countries that are it's it's it's, the story of history. But when countries get into grips if territories get into grips of extremists with guns, especially religious extremists and guns whether it's Northern Ireland or or Syria or or Gaza itself, that's just, it ruins lives and it ruins hope. And so the hope is to not have the extremists with guns in charge.
Steve Palmer [:Indeed. Amen. Well, look, thank you very much for appearing. This is, this has been Mark Patinkin. Check out his book, The Holy Land at War, a journey through Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. It looks like you can get it wherever you get your books on audiobooks, downloads, or just go buy it. And, Mark, is there any website or anything else you wanna plug while you're here just so people can check it out?
Mark Patinkin [:Yeah. I mean, it's on Amazon. I will say Amazon had first banned the book. Oh
Norm Murdock [:my god. No way. That's crazy.
Mark Patinkin [:They banned they banned a couple other books from Israel. And, I think it would probably it was one kinda it's a black box Amazon. I think it's, you know, was one, prejudice gatekeeper who said, I don't want, you know, and and the Israeli perspective in there, even though this has both sides. And, and they only got unbanned when I wrote about it, and there was a social media outcry. So it's now on Amazon. But I will say it's even hard to get on radar on Amazon because when you're on Amazon, you know, there's millions of books there. And so I I just last week, I, tried to just, you know, pay a few bucks to have it advertised on Amazon. They've got these complicated algorithms where the book will pop up here and there if you pay a few dollars the same way as so much social media.
Mark Patinkin [:And get this, I got a letter from Amazon saying your request for an advertisement has been denied because of, quote, current events
Steve Palmer [:Wow.
Mark Patinkin [:Which is their way of saying, even though this is the most important story in the world, they're just terrified of any kind of controversy Wow. Around the subject. So it's it's hard to get this book on radar. It is on Amazon. Go there. You'll find it. And, if you go to a bookstore, you could order it. It's, that, I've had to battle it, and it's it's a whole another podcast.
Mark Patinkin [:But, you know, people talk about books being banned. When you talk about when book's banned, what are you talking about? One one group that's banning books from 1 library in Elyria, Ohio. When Amazon bans a book, now that they control 80% of ebooks and 50% of print books, they're really keeping your book from the public square. And so there's a big conversation to be had around that, and I've been the victim of it. So I've I've had to fight some battles, but it's on Amazon. It's just that they won't let me advertise it and almost didn't let me on the site because of, they're just terrified of the subject itself. Wow.
Steve Palmer [:Well, look. I think that's a conversation we would all love to have with you about, about your experience there, but it'll be next time. So for now, we'll sign off. Thank you so much. Much appreciated. And, folks, check out his book. It really is worth checking out irrespective of what Amazon and the others might say about it. It is, it is completely neutral, and it does not take a political viewpoint.
Steve Palmer [:So, thank you again, Mark. Have a great holiday.
Mark Patinkin [:Thanks, guys. You did a great job, by the way. I appreciate you saying people should look for my book. People should look for your podcast. This is as good a podcast as I've been on and even seen. You guys are good. I thank you.
Norm Murdock [:Thank you. Thank you.
Steve Palmer [:Alright. That's Common Sense Ohio signing off with Mark Patinkin. Great conversation. Check it out. And don't worry, we have lots more to come with all our regular weekly content. We'll be at you next week. This is Common Sense Ohio coming at you right from the middle.
