Today on The Rough Draft, we sit down with director & cinematographer Jacob Hamilton. With over 20 years in the industry, Jacob is best-known for his award-winning directorial debut Jump Shot, and his cinematography can be found in places like the documentary Facing Nolan, and more recently on Magnolia Table with Joanna Gaines. On today’s episode, Jacob breaks down what it’s like to work on a documentary for over 7 years. He explains his process of preparing for interviews and how he finds the right people to contribute to the story. We talk about the unpredictable nature of documentary storytelling, as well as the importance of surrounding yourself with the right people. Alright, let’s jump into our conversation with Jacob Hamilton.

Guest Bio

Jacob Hamilton is director and cinematographer based in Austin, TX. With over 20 years in the industry he is best-known for his directorial debut JUMP SHOT (2019, SXSW WORLD PREMIERE), an award-winning feature length documentary about Kenny Sailors, the man who invented the modern day jump shot in basketball, his cinematography on critically acclaimed FACING NOLAN (2022, SXSW WORLD PREMIERE), and more recently his cinematography on MAGNOLIA TABLE with JOANNA GAINES for Warner Discovery & the Magnolia Network. 

Episode Topics

(1:12) Getting started & pursuing a feature documentary

(5:30) Pursuing a documentary story

(7:10) How to conduct interviews for documentary films

(9:39) Securing celebrity athletes to interview for Jacob’s film

(14:32) Volume of interview footage, b-roll, archival footage

(17:36) Cutting a documentary story with transcripts

(22:01) Committing to the story

(26:58) Caring for the story subject & the unpredictability of documentary storytelling

(32:58) Surrounding yourself with the right people

(36:52) Being a dad while directing a feature film

(42:48) Childhood dream to reality

(45:12) Technology, tools & storytelling

Additional Resources

•  jacobryanhamilton.com
• Instagram: @jacobryanhamilton
• Twitter: @jake_hamilton
• jumpshotmovie.com
• facingnolan.com

Episode Transcript

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- "I think I know some guys

that would like to see this

2

and maybe participate in it, yeah."

3

And he was like, "This is

Steph Curry and Kevin Durant."

4

I will say there's like

at least one day a month

5

where I'm like, "Maybe I

should just go flip burgers."

6

I'm like, so tired.

- Yeah. (laughing)

7

What does that pressure feel like?

8

Watching it next to-

- Terrifying.

9

- Yeah?

- Terrifying.

10

I love that part.

- You do.

11

- I do, I love to get in there,

12

like you've gotta be married to the story.

13

Filmmaking is the epitome of that.

14

- Today on "The Rough Draft", we sit down

15

with director and

cinematographer, Jacob Hamilton.

16

With over 20 years in the

industry, Jacob is best known

17

for his award-winning

directorial debut "Jump Shot",

18

and his cinematography

can be found in places

19

like the documentary "Facing Nolan",

20

and more recently in "Magnolia

Table" with Joanna Gaines.

21

On today's episode, Jacob

breaks down what it's like

22

to work on a documentary

for over seven years.

23

He explains his process of

prepping for interviews,

24

and how he finds the right people

25

to contribute to the story.

26

We talk about the unpredictable nature

27

of documentary storytelling,

as well as the importance

28

of surrounding yourself

with the right people.

29

All right, let's jump

in to our conversation

30

with Jacob Hamilton.

(bright thoughtful music)

31

So you're a director, cinematographer,

32

or I guess cinematographer

turned director is-

33

- Yeah I mean, just kinda starting out,

34

you kinda do everything, you know,

35

when you first enter that

world of being a filmmaker,

36

and so you wear all the hats.

37

Edit, you know, produce, shoot,

direct, all those things.

38

And when I finally had the opportunity

39

to kinda start dabbling in, you know,

40

like a more concentrated thing,

41

editing and cinematography

were what stood out to me,

42

I enjoyed being around, and

then kept getting a lotta calls

43

for being a cinematographer.

44

And then when I was, you

know, out there getting to,

45

you know, be a cinematographer,

camera operator, DP,

46

there were a lotta

instances where I was like,

47

you know, I was working with all kinds

48

of different people and I

was like, "You know what?

49

I feel like I could do this."

50

So yeah, I started searching

for projects, you know,

51

that maybe would be something

that I could direct,

52

which ultimately ended up leading me

53

to my first feature-length documentary.

54

- Can you tell me about your first

55

feature-length documentary?

56

- Yeah, so I directed a

feature-length documentary

57

called "Jump Shot: The

Kenny Sailors Story",

58

and literally, that was the

first project that came to mind.

59

I was like, "This is

something I wanna direct."

60

And long story short, I heard a podcast,

61

a friend of mine, like curated,

like his favorite podcasts

62

and would do a podcast about podcasts.

63

It was amazing.

64

He doesn't do it anymore,

which is really a bummer.

65

But it was a great way to just like,

66

hit all the major points

throughout the week of like,

67

"Oh, this is really fascinating."

68

And one of them was this like two-minute,

69

maybe three-minute interview

with Kenny Sailors,

70

who at the time was in his late 80s.

71

And I heard it and I was

like, "This is fascinating."

72

Had no idea that somebody

like, invented the jump shot.

73

And he seemed like this amazing character,

74

and so did a little bit of research,

75

found out he was still

alive, he lived in Wyoming.

76

And so reached out to him, and yeah,

77

one thing led to another.

78

We ended up grabbing breakfast

79

up in Laramie, Wyoming,

which is where he lived.

80

And I was like, "Hey, I

wanna tell your story,

81

and not just basketball, I

wanna talk about your life."

82

You know, the more research I did on him,

83

the more I realized this

guy did so much more

84

than just basketball and the jump shot.

85

And so I was like, I

think there's a really,

86

like rich opportunity to tell this story.

87

Like, there's just so much.

88

I always compare, it's

like his story's like

89

"Forrest Gump" meets "Hoosiers",

meets "Into the Wild".

90

It's like those three movies together

91

make Kenny's life story, so.

92

- What like, caught your

attention about his story?

93

Like, are you a sports fan or-

94

- I am a sports fan.

95

Sports are an incredible

like, storytelling vessel.

96

You know, Kenny's case is kind of a David

97

versus Goliath story,

'cause he's five foot seven

98

and played in the NBA, and he created

99

the jump shot out of necessity.

100

- Which you mentioned earlier

101

about when you had breakfast with him,

102

and you realized like,

"Oh, this guy's more

103

than just the inventor of the jump shot,

104

or even just more than

just a basketball player.

105

He's also a mentor, he's

also like a great husband,

106

a great dad, a great grandfather."

107

Like he has all these other

identities that he excelled at,

108

besides just the thing that

everyone else wants to focus on.

109

And I think like when

I watched "Jump Shot",

110

I would just like, really felt that

111

on the second half of the film,

112

and I think this is great storytelling,

113

it was like a little

bit bait and switch-y.

114

- Bait and switch, oh yeah sure.

115

It's like the hook is basketball.

116

You're, "Wait a second, why

are we talking about his wife?"

117

- But I was like, "No, this

like feels like who he is,"

118

but I think-

- You know what that means?

119

It's like, I think I did my job.

120

- Yeah exactly, that's

what I'm trying to tell,

121

like I think you did

a really beautiful job

122

of portraying what I would

think Kenny would be like.

123

I even wrote down like a quote that KD

124

said that I think like

really sums it up well was,

125

"If you take away all the

business, all the media,

126

all the hype around the game,

and you wanna see pure love,

127

like look at Kenny Sailors."

128

- KD nailed it.

- And like, yeah.

129

It was just like a really

cool line that I was like,

130

"I think this is what I would assume

131

Jacob set out to go and capture."

132

- Yeah, so in that

conversation that we had,

133

that first conversation

at breakfast, he's like,

134

"You know, everybody knows the jump shot

135

and that's all they wanna talk about,

136

but there's so much more to my life."

137

And I was like, "That's

the story I wanna tell."

138

- What does that look

like to pursue, you know,

139

someone's story who has

no idea who you are,

140

and then all of a sudden,

141

do you just call him outta the blue?

142

How does that work? Like

what's the first step, and-

143

- I mean every story, you know,

144

just how anybody enters the film industry,

145

it's a different story, and

then how we approached him.

146

I had no connection at

all to him whatsoever,

147

and I think just recently

one of Kenny's friends,

148

like somebody that manages, like you know,

149

managed a lot of his time

and kinda helped organize

150

a lot of his archival, like

had just built a website.

151

And so I saw that and

hit him up with an email,

152

and they were like, "Yeah, we'd love

153

to hop on the phone and chat."

154

So first was a phone

conversation and then it was,

155

"Hey, like, I'd like to come up there

156

and visit with you in

person and talk about this,"

157

just so you can, you know,

158

try to build a little bit more trust.

159

And so yeah, one thing

led to another where,

160

I don't know if it was

the conventional way

161

of going about it, but it worked somehow,

162

and he agreed to do it.

163

You know, I learned maybe along the way

164

there were maybe other

people like trying to like,

165

kinda do something-

166

- Oh really?

- Yeah, a little bit.

167

Nothing like exact, I knew

nobody was gonna be doing

168

exactly what I did, but

you know, I know ESPN

169

like ended up doing a feature with him.

170

That producer actually is in the film,

171

talking a little bit about

Kenny and his story too.

172

But there were all these little things.

173

There's like, "Oh, people are

starting to find out like,

174

this guy is still alive,

he invented the jump shot,"

175

and I got all nervous that

someone was gonna like,

176

kinda boot me outta the process

177

and I wouldn't be able to tell his story.

178

But then kinda became

confident, I was like,

179

"I don't think anybody's

gonna be sharing the story

180

with the same angle that I am.

181

So even if they are telling

his story, I think I'm gonna be

182

something that's a

little bit more unique."

183

- Were you part of every single interview

184

that is part of the film?

- Yep.

185

- Did you conduct those interviews?

186

- I did, yeah.

187

- Okay, can you walk me through like,

188

how do you prepare for an interview?

189

So like, what's your process look like?

190

- Yeah, so I mean, it's understanding who

191

you're interviewing and

what their perspective is

192

of the story you're trying to tell.

193

One thing I learned not

soon enough on "Jump Shot",

194

is like every person I would sit down,

195

I would ask everything, you know?

196

'Cause you're like, you know at that,

197

you're so hungry for content.

198

And I would ask, you know,

historical things to people

199

that probably like, didn't

know any history, you know?

200

Or like, really know certain

aspects of Kenny's life.

201

And so there was a lotta

like bloated, you know,

202

interviews that we had, where

I was trying to get people

203

to like, open up about certain things,

204

they just had no idea.

205

And yeah, and so it's

just one of those things

206

where I learned over time doing

it and making some mistakes,

207

and you know, you wanna

focus on, "Okay this person,

208

they're gonna be able to talk

about this specific moment

209

or this specific event or history in here,

210

and like, I just really

need to dive into that."

211

Maybe get one or two things that are

212

kinda more broad in general,

but not try, you know,

213

I'm not gonna be talking

with like, you know,

214

KD about the evolution

of basketball as much,

215

other than like, "Let's

talk about, you know,

216

comparing like his style, Kenny's style,

217

with what's going on today."

218

So it's like being just

more specific catered to,

219

you know, who we're talking with,

220

and not trying to get

everything out of it.

221

- Yeah, and how do you go

about like finding out,

222

"Oh, this person might be, you know,

223

an expert on this part of his life.

224

This person might be, you know,

225

an expert on this part of his life."

226

- We broke it down.

227

Like there's athletes,

there are historians,

228

there are people that

wrote articles, you know,

229

and about Kenny, in newspapers

or magazines and whatnot.

230

So they could bring a different approach.

231

And so you kinda look at, you know,

232

all the different player, you know,

233

the key players in what makes this story.

234

And there are people that, you

know, knew Kenny personally,

235

and there are people that

don't, they've never met him,

236

but they can comment on like gameplay,

237

and the history and whatnot.

238

And so yeah, so you

kinda have to cater each,

239

you know those questions, to like,

240

"Okay, well who are all these people?

241

How are they somehow

related to Kenny or know,

242

you know, can speak on

this part of the story?"

243

- Essentially, you're having to build

244

so many different relationships

245

through the whole process, right?

246

- Yeah.

- Build rapport,

247

so that you get the

right or the best answer.

248

What's it like building

rapport with someone

249

that might have like, you

know, all these red tape

250

to get to, like I would assume like a KD

251

or a Steph Curry, is that just

a whole different ball game,

252

like interviewing someone like that, or?

253

- Well, the great thing

that I was reminded of,

254

when we were pursuing, you know,

255

trying to get some active players,

256

or people that had played recently,

257

maybe they had just retired,

258

was that they all have an obligation

259

to speak on behalf of their organization.

260

So whoever they're playing with,

261

like that is something that, you know,

262

the Warriors encourage

players to participate

263

in things like this documentary.

264

And so we knew that, you know,

265

it wouldn't be a bad thing for that,

266

but there's a gatekeeper

to anybody at that level,

267

and they're really hard to get to.

268

I forget the exact number,

but when we were reaching out

269

to like the SID for the Warriors,

270

like who was in charge

of all of like contacts,

271

he's just like, "You're

lucky that I saw your email."

272

You know, and it's like,

"Wow, like that's crazy.

273

I have no idea how that happens,

274

but I'm glad that you did read our email

275

and that we're here today

getting to visit with you guys."

276

So yeah, there always,

there needs to be some type

277

of personal connection, I think,

for it to really solidify.

278

And for us, you know, with "Jump Shot",

279

when we were able to

get both KD and Steph,

280

that was through a mutual friend of ours

281

that our executive producer, Mary Beth,

282

she met the chaplain for the

US Olympics basketball team,

283

and she shared an early version

of "Jump Shot" with him,

284

and he's like, "this is amazing.

285

I think I know some guys

that would like to see this,

286

and maybe participate in it."

287

And he was like, "That, you know,

288

is Steph Curry and Kevin

Durant, so let me see

289

if I can get this in front of

them and work something out."

290

And so that's how that came about.

291

So there's multiple layers and

steps to get to that point,

292

but eventually, yeah it all,

293

we got to do it and it was incredible.

294

And we're so grateful that we

were able to get those guys,

295

you know, amongst

everybody else in our film.

296

You know, we got to visit with

Dirk, which was really fun,

297

and you know, the late Great Bob Knight.

298

So I don't know, there's so many,

299

it's such a wide variety of

people in this, you know,

300

from young and old, that get

to reflect upon Kenny's legacy.

301

It's really exciting, help, it

makes it, well-rounded story

302

- That speaks to the

value of having, you know,

303

a team help you accomplish

those things too,

304

because just having

people that are out there,

305

like batting for you.

306

So you mentioned that she showed him

307

a early version of "Jump Shot".

308

What does that mean? Like

is this like a paper cut?

309

Is this like a rough, like fully-fledged,

310

like rough cut for it, or like-

311

- Yeah, great question.

312

Yeah, this this was a full cut,

313

just minus those few characters

that we were searching for.

314

So we had reached the

point where we're like,

315

"Okay, this is a solid film,

but we really need some,

316

like younger voices, some

recognizable faces in here."

317

So we kinda were like,

318

"Who are the top shooters of all time?"

319

And you know, Kevin and Steph

are obviously on that list.

320

And the crazy story is that with KD,

321

we actually had an opportunity

322

to go screen the film personally with him.

323

- Oh really?

- For him to like,

324

watch it and see if he

wanted to be a part of it.

325

And so we actually went

out to like the Bay Area

326

with the chaplain, my

two producers and myself.

327

And we like, walked up to KD's house,

328

and like rang the doorbell and

he came and gave us all hugs.

329

And he was like, "Let's go," you know?

330

And like, it was just one of the wilder

331

experiences of my life, and

he's like, "Let's watch it."

332

You know, we're hanging around

outside in his backyard,

333

and he's like, "Let's watch this thing."

334

And we watched it and like his,

335

I was just kinda waiting

for him to, you know,

336

start looking around, and get

bored or something like that.

337

But he was like, glued to

the screen the entire time.

338

- That's awesome.

339

- And at one point in

time he like hit pause,

340

he's like, "How do I stop this," you know?

341

And he's like, "I am doing

this exact same thing today,

342

but Kenny was doing this

like 50, 60 years ago."

343

And so yeah, it was pretty

incredible that he appreciated,

344

you know, you just never know,

like if somebody younger,

345

you know, is gonna appreciate,

346

you know, who has come before them.

347

And KD is one of those guys

that, you know and Steph,

348

they're all guys that, you know,

349

wanna help preserve the

history of the game.

350

- What does that pressure feel like?

351

Watching it next to-

- Terrifying?

352

- Yeah?

- Terrifying.

353

- Having some like that be-

354

- So we were watching

it outside on my laptop.

355

And I'm like, "Surely

there's a big TV in here

356

that we could be watching this on,"

357

but he just like, wanted

to watch it outside.

358

So it's like, there are dogs barking,

359

there's like planes flying over.

360

I blew out the speakers to my laptop.

361

I'm pretty sure that my laptop never like,

362

performed the way it did prior to that.

363

So, but it all worked, and he

like agreed to be in the film,

364

and yeah, his presence

is absolutely incredible.

365

- That's awesome.

366

You know, I've done

documentary storytelling

367

on a much, much smaller level,

like a five-minute story.

368

And even that involves, you

know, so many interviews.

369

So like, many hours of, you

know, prep for those interviews,

370

but then also so many

hours of interview footage,

371

plus hours of B roll.

372

And then for you, plus

hours of archival footage,

373

like, do you have any idea of

how much volume of interviews

374

or all of that stuff there

was like to sort through?

375

- I meant to look this

up before I came in,

376

but I wanna say we probably

had somewhere around 30 maybe,

377

or 40 interviews, and

we only used maybe half.

378

You know, a lot of people didn't,

379

just make it in there for whatever reason.

380

And then the archival side of things,

381

thankfully Kenny's wife saved everything.

382

Newspaper clippings,

magazines, photos, you know,

383

and I made this film over a

seven-year period, so like,

384

it was like very touch and go, off and on.

385

And there was one point in time,

I remember I went up there,

386

and the University of

Wyoming, the archival facility

387

attached with the

university, they had I think

388

seven boxes of Kenny archival material

389

that his wife had had saved,

390

and it took me a full five

days of scanning images.

391

Like 12-hour day, like I'd

get there right when it opened

392

and when they would close.

393

We had somewhere around

600 clips, like actual,

394

like whether it's like-

- Footage?

395

- Assets-

- Yeah okay, got it.

396

- In the film, which you know,

the firm that was clearing

397

all of our, you know, legal

side of things were like,

398

"This is like one of the most

extensive archival asset,

399

like lists that we've ever dealt with."

400

But so much of the story

took place at that time.

401

And, you know, Kenny can only do

402

so much when he was in his 90s.

403

Thankfully we got him like,

404

actually shooting for

us, which is incredible.

405

- Yeah, we were talking

about how we loved like,

406

that opening shot, even of

him just like walking in and-

407

- First take.

- Yeah, was it?

408

- Yeah, it was first take.

409

I had no idea what he was gonna do.

410

Had no idea what he was gonna do.

411

- What did you, like, what

direction did you give him?

412

- I just said, "Hey Kenny,

413

we're gonna have a ball

at the top of the key.

414

Just walk in through these doors

415

and take a shot, and we're gonna film it."

416

You know, we have a wide, we have a tight,

417

and we just sit on the

one wide the entire time.

418

It's just a great opening.

419

And I'm on the tight lens, so I'm only,

420

I'm actually only following the ball.

421

I'm like, have a close up of the ball,

422

and I'm not even seeing

what's happening at all.

423

I just hear like a big

bounce and it goes in,

424

and then everybody started laughing.

425

I'm like, "What just happened?"

426

He's like, "He just bounced the ball in

427

through the hoop, it was perfect."

428

- First try.

- First try.

429

And I was like, "Well we"-

- Was actually perfect.

430

- Yeah, and it's like,

"Well, maybe we should do

431

one more take just in

case, we didn't need to.

432

But, you know, I was like,

433

it always scares me to

just do anything once.

434

But yeah, that was the first

take that had happened,

435

and that's the clip we used

for the opening of the film.

436

- What's the process look like for someone

437

trying to tell, you know,

a documentary story?

438

- I'm still, I guess

I'm kind of old school,

439

like I'm a paper guy, so like,

I took all of our transcripts

440

and printed them out, so

that I could like take notes,

441

highlight, and I had like a

Kenny Sailors bible basically,

442

and it ended up being like

three binders I think,

443

with like, all of our interviews.

444

And I would just go through

and highlight them all,

445

read them, have my notes

that I could always refer to.

446

Different colors of highlighters

meant different things,

447

like this is a personal story,

448

this is a basketball-centric thing,

449

this is, you know, whatever.

450

And so like, you know, I'd

be able to look at a page

451

and be like, "Okay, we're

talking about basketball

452

on this page," and I'd make

a note at the top of the page

453

of like, "Here are like the

three things that are there,"

454

so I could kinda flip through and know

455

that Kenny's talking about his wife,

456

or he is talking about

playing the NBA, or whatever.

457

So you know, try to

just, anything I could do

458

to kinda like speed up the

process to look through things.

459

And then, you know, from a

digital perspective of it,

460

you have, you know, all

these open up in a document.

461

And now it's different today,

462

because all these

different editing software,

463

like you can actually, a lot of them,

464

you can search through transcripts

now within the program.

465

I didn't have that luxury at that time.

466

And so I would have like

a Word document open

467

and I would do keywords, you know-

468

- Give them an F.

- Yeah, and find,

469

you know, "I need

somebody that says this,"

470

you know, and would search for that,

471

and scroll through all

the different responses,

472

and kinda begin to piece things together.

473

But yeah, I mean, it

started out with like,

474

we had like a paper edit, build that out,

475

and realize we need a lot more work.

476

But you know, you know the story beats

477

that you're trying to tell.

478

Like I knew, like you know,

you look at the three acts

479

that make up a film, and I

knew like most of these things

480

probably fell within, you

know, this act here or there.

481

And then you're just trying to like,

482

bridge everything together, you know?

483

Have some kind of smooth transition

484

where maybe this is an opportunity

for like a verite moment,

485

a some B roll, like a historical,

486

you know, significant moment.

487

And so yeah, I mean it's

a process, and you know,

488

and we did lots of test

screenings with the film as well,

489

to see, you know, what's

working, what's not working,

490

who do you wanna see more of,

491

who do you think you need

to hear less from, like,

492

and all that, you know,

it's just so many steps,

493

it's so many processes

and so many individuals

494

that contribute to get you

to the finish line of that.

495

So I'm pretty sure that we actually had

496

like a 88-minute film,

and like literally like,

497

cut 11 minutes, like last minute.

498

- Oh really?

499

- Yeah, just like things

that, like you know,

500

a couple of people that

I trusted were like,

501

"I think it's just a smoother transition

502

if you just go from here to there,

503

and eliminate some of these things."

504

And I'm sure I pushed back some on it,

505

but ultimately I was like, "You're right,

506

we're gonna cut that and move on."

507

- Those last few minutes are

always the hardest to cut.

508

Like, because as that, you know,

piece starts to take shape,

509

it's hard to imagine

it being any different,

510

and like seconds become hard

to cut because it's just like-

511

- I love that part.

- You do?

512

- I do.

- Oh not me, man.

513

No way.

- I love to get in there,

514

and like find, I mean,

it's like this frame here,

515

that frame there and it's grueling,

516

but it's so satisfying to me.

517

Like, we had an editor come on that helped

518

kinda get things going, and

then we're an independent doc,

519

so I had to take the

reins and finish the film.

520

And thankfully I have

an editing background,

521

but had a lot to learn still.

522

And then had another

person come on as a mentor,

523

slash story producer

that would sit in with me

524

and help me shape the story even further.

525

Just grateful for everybody

that came together

526

to help make it as great

of a story as it is.

527

- Yeah, I mean, there's countless hours

528

that collectively went into this thing.

529

You know, I can't even imagine

how many that would be but-

530

- I was, yeah, when this premiered,

531

I think I was 35 years old,

532

and it took me seven years to make,

533

and that's one-fifth of my life

534

that I worked on this one project.

535

And so I was ready to be

done, but it was also like,

536

kinda surreal, and you

know, you kinda mourn

537

closing a chapter like that, so yeah.

538

- I think like, and I'm

speaking for myself,

539

but I would assume there's, you know,

540

several people like me

that are also creatives.

541

I feel like I tend to just dream a lot,

542

and I'll have like, "Oh,

this is a great idea

543

that I could pursue," but like,

544

I'd never follow through with

them, because I just dream,

545

and then I hit like this cliff of like,

546

I could either pursue

it, and that's gonna mean

547

sacrificing a lot of things, or you know,

548

potentially risking certain things,

549

whether that's finances or

time, or even a job potentially.

550

Like, you spent seven years

of your life on this story.

551

Like what does it look like to

push past that cliff of like,

552

"All right I'm just, I'm gonna commit,

553

and this is gonna become something

554

that I actually chase and pursue."

555

- So, great question.

556

The project started out as a short film,

557

so I wanted to create a proof of concept.

558

- Like, how long did that short take?

559

- Maybe like eight months,

nine months I think?

560

So you know, and we went up there knowing

561

we wanted to like capture

as much with Kenny,

562

like his main interview as possible,

563

that we would be making

a feature documentary.

564

And so we had that to hang our hat on,

565

and from there we used that

to like pitch and raise money,

566

and apply for grants and whatnot.

567

And so there were several hurdles

568

that we had to clear to

keep the thing going.

569

But there were a lot of

times where I was like,

570

"I don't know if this is

ever gonna get completed,"

571

but I really did feel like,

572

this is the story that I need to tell.

573

Like I tell people, if you're gonna do

574

a feature documentary

independently, you know,

575

where you're having to

figure everything out,

576

like you've gotta be married to the story.

577

Like it's just one of those things,

578

like you have to be fully committed to it,

579

'cause nobody else is

gonna help you finish it.

580

Like it really does,

you know, rely upon you.

581

People can help, but like, you are the one

582

that's gonna have to finish, you know,

583

pushing that boulder up there,

584

and rally people to come behind you.

585

I just was like, "I've got this."

586

And then at a certain point

you get so far down the road,

587

you're like, "I can't give up now."

588

Like, you know, like, and I

remember having that moment.

589

It's like, "Okay, like this

is actually happening,"

590

like, "We're doing this."

591

But there's little victories

along the way I think,

592

that keep you, you know,

that propel you forward.

593

You know, I was a recipient

594

for the Austin Film Society

grant, that was huge.

595

And then there's a couple

other grants that we won.

596

Wyoming had a film grant

at one point in time,

597

and we applied to that,

598

and we were the ones that received it.

599

So all those things kinda

helped keep the project alive

600

and moving forward, and then

allowed us to get to the point

601

where we actually got to, you know,

602

actually raise some capital

by meeting with investors,

603

and actually get everything

we needed to finish the film.

604

So it just took a long time. (laughing)

605

- There's so much process

that, and like dedication

606

and like life that gets

breathed into these projects,

607

that viewers just don't think about.

608

And like, why should they?

609

But like this is like, was

seven years of your life,

610

and it's an hour of someone

else's life, you know?

611

So was this like your full-time

job for those seven years?

612

Did you like, were you

working a full-time, like gig,

613

or like doing, you know, other things

614

to create a full-time

income, and this was just

615

like a side project for

those seven years, or-

616

- Yeah, so I'm a contractor, freelance.

617

I would just go and do whatever project

618

I was called to go do,

and then I'd come home,

619

and then I'd come back

and work on "Jump Shot".

620

And that's another reason probably why

621

it took a little bit longer,

622

'cause it was just kind of me, you know-

623

- Yeah, it was a passion project, like-

624

- Puttering my way through.

625

But yeah, so yeah no, I did both,

626

and you know there was like,

627

I remember there was like the

slowest season of my career,

628

it felt like there was like

a two or three month window,

629

for whatever reason at the

beginning of the year once,

630

where I was like, "Nobody's

calling me, I'm not working."

631

And I think like the

fact that I was at least

632

productive on editing

"Jump Shot" at that time,

633

like maybe that's how I

was able to keep my sanity,

634

and be like, "At least

I'm doing something.

635

I'm not just sitting here

twiddling my thumbs."

636

So like, I remember

making like great strides

637

in the story at that point in time, too.

638

- Going back to like the

transcripts, I would imagine

639

that you're building paper

cuts this entire process,

640

through the whole seven years.

641

You're just continually

adding interviews to it.

642

Is that-

643

- Yeah, once you get to a

certain point, you know,

644

the story's there, and you're like,

645

"How can we make these scenes,

these moments better?:"

646

And it's like, "We need

somebody talking about this,"

647

or, "We need somebody that

has this type of clout

648

or perspective, you know,

649

to enhance what's being talked about."

650

And so like, you get to

go in like very, you know,

651

surgically as you get

near the end of like,

652

"We need to talk, you know,

653

these people need to be

saying these things."

654

And so you kinda hone in

on what your questions are,

655

and you know exactly where

you wanna drop them in.

656

So once the story has taken

shape, you're able to like,

657

move a little bit more

quickly and drop those in.

658

- One thing I've admired

and respected about you

659

since I've known you is just the way

660

that you like intentionally

care for people,

661

and just like, love

people well, and are like,

662

genuinely interested in

just how people are doing.

663

And so I think like,

what is it like to care

664

for the person more than your dream?

665

How do you like steward

that relationship well,

666

whenever you're sharing

someone else's story?

667

- Yeah I mean, I think it's,

thank you for saying that,

668

and noticing, you know,

669

I guess that characteristic about me.

670

I think it's something that

just comes naturally to me,

671

which just benefits me as a filmmaker,

672

a documentary filmmaker specifically.

673

But I've seen it carry over elsewhere.

674

But I don't know, you just

pay attention to like,

675

what's going on and like, you might think

676

you have the best way, and a

lotta times it's not always,

677

you know, the best case, you know,

678

for them for whatever reason.

679

And with documentary

filmmaking, like you just never,

680

you can plan and you know,

as much as you want to,

681

you know, and it's hardly ever gonna go

682

exactly how you imagined.

683

So you've gotta roll with the punches.

684

You gotta be flexible with like,

685

"Okay, well that didn't work,

686

so we're gonna think of something else."

687

And I think that's part of the reason

688

why I love this career, is it's just

689

an endless amount of problem solving.

690

A lotta people might not know,

691

I actually studied engineering.

692

I got a degree in engineering,

didn't study film.

693

That was something I was doing along,

694

you know, while I was in school.

695

And, but like problem solving is something

696

I just absolutely love, you know,

697

maybe it's a love hate thing,

698

but like, it's something I appreciate,

699

and always am willing to think through.

700

Like, "Okay, this isn't working.

701

Like, how can we make

this work?" And press on.

702

And filmmaking is the epitome of that,

703

where you're constantly

having walls and hurdles

704

and obstacles, like

thrown in front of you,

705

and you're having to figure out.

706

And that's from like a

lighting perspective,

707

that's from a logistics perspective,

708

that's from a story perspective,

709

that's from a relationship perspective.

710

Like, there's so many things that make up,

711

that have to align to be able

712

to do what we do as filmmakers.

713

And so you can't just freeze

and stop and give up, you know?

714

Like you have to like, keep

pressing on and figure out,

715

like, "Okay, like this isn't working.

716

How are we gonna get through

this? What do we need to do?"

717

- And I would say probably

even to another level

718

with documentary filmmaking because,

719

especially with someone

who's, you know, still living,

720

and you're telling their story,

721

like it's an ever-evolving

story, even like as his friends

722

are trying to push his name

through the Hall of Fame

723

and like get his name on the ballot.

724

That's probably developing while you guys

725

are walking alongside of him.

726

That's just how-

- Yeah, we didn't know.

727

Yeah, we had no idea.

728

You know, we knew that there was a push,

729

and that's a whole nother thing of like,

730

I had this perfect plan,

like I was up in Wyoming,

731

like during the Hall of Fame announcement,

732

and I wanted to have like

all of the university,

733

you know people, like the athletic people

734

that are in the film, I wanted to have

735

everybody together watching it live,

736

and like nobody wanted to

get together and watch it.

737

And I was like, "Well this

sucks, what am I supposed to do?"

738

And you know, we have the recording of it,

739

and I see it happen, he doesn't get in.

740

And Jim Brandenburg, one of

the former coaches at Wyoming,

741

I saw that he was calling me,

742

and I thought maybe he just

watched it and, you know,

743

and so I just turned on my camera

744

and held our boom mic up to the phone,

745

like on speaker, and got this raw moment

746

of his frustration and disappointment.

747

So you don't see anybody,

but you can like,

748

just that one moment I think embodies

749

everybody's feelings of like,

750

"God, we just gave it everything we had,

751

and it still wasn't enough."

752

And that's one of those

moments where, you know,

753

I had to think on the spot,

and that was the best thing

754

that was given to us.

755

And I can't imagine it any other way.

756

It's perfect, you know?

757

So just serendipitous that

758

that all played out the way it did.

759

- Are there any other, like,

lessons that you learned

760

through that process

that you now, you know,

761

maybe implement or avoid, or

like mistakes that you made

762

that have influenced the way

that you approach new projects?

763

Whether that's directing,

or you know, cinematography?

764

- Great, oh there's so many,

so many lessons learned

765

over the years and for

this project in particular.

766

I mean, I think from like

a technical standpoint,

767

I think it's really important

to like, edit as you go.

768

And I think it kinda takes the load off,

769

like later on to like, so, you know,

770

maybe get a couple interviews in,

771

but like start kinda piecing

together what you have,

772

'cause it allows you to

shape the story as you go,

773

but also know what you don't have,

774

what you need and whatnot,

so that's one thing.

775

And then, I mean, I've been

doing this for 20 years now,

776

which is crazy to think about.

777

I've been, you know,

contracting out as a filmmaker.

778

Be nice to everybody, 'cause

you never know, you know

779

what intern is gonna be like,

780

a director or producer you're working for.

781

I'm serious, it's

happened, it has happened.

782

And so, you know, it's

always important to be kind,

783

in my opinion, and show

respect to everybody.

784

But like, this is like a

perfect case and instance,

785

where it's like yeah, like

somebody that was probably

786

like low in on the, you

know, production totem pole,

787

is now calling the shots

788

on something that you're working for.

789

And you know, if you treated

that person poorly or terribly,

790

like, maybe you won't

get that job, you know,

791

if your name is in the hat for it.

792

So I don't know, those are

two things that come to mind.

793

- No, that's good, and it

honestly speaks into something

794

that I wanted to talk

about, which is like, again,

795

just like relationships are

a big part of, you know,

796

I mean any job that you have,

797

but like working on set with other people,

798

you're gonna have a lot of frustrations

799

and it's gonna have to be

like, on a time crunch,

800

and you're probably gonna

be like hot and sweaty,

801

and like frustrated with like,

802

something that didn't go the

way that you wanted to go.

803

And so like, surrounding

yourself with the right people,

804

usually it kinda helps make

that a little different.

805

Like if you're working

with your best friend,

806

you can get either frustrated

and just shrug it off,

807

or y'all are like frustrated together,

808

and y'all already have like a rapport,

809

and like a team working ethic.

810

And, and so like when I saw

the credits of "Jump Shot",

811

I was like, man, I know so many names,

812

and like I know that that's

a value for Jacob is to like,

813

surround himself with good people.

814

And I got to see all these

good people, like you know,

815

their names scroll up on the credits.

816

And I just like, what's

it like getting to work

817

on something that you

care so deeply about,

818

with people that you care so deeply for?

819

- Yeah, I mean honestly,

like it's humbling,

820

because we were an independent doc.

821

We, you know, didn't have like,

822

we did not have a large budget,

you know, to like really,

823

we weren't able to pay

anybody their rates.

824

And so we had people that like, basically,

825

you know, were coming

out and doing a favor.

826

You know, I always was like,

"I'm gonna pay you something.

827

It's just not gonna be what

your time's really worth.

828

That's not how I see you or value you,

829

but this is just what the

circumstance is right now.

830

And, you know, thank you

for giving us your time

831

and sacrificing that to make it happen."

832

So it's incredibly humble

to have people, you know,

833

see something in you or the story

834

where they're willing to say,

"You know what? That's fine.

835

Like I'll work at, you know, half the rate

836

I normally would work for, or whatever,

837

or donate, you know, this gear

838

to help you, you know, see your vision."

839

And you know, that's

something for me, too.

840

Like whenever young filmmakers

841

or somebody has a passion

project, you know, I always,

842

I mean, I'm a cinematographer.

843

I direct now too, but

like if a friend calls

844

and they're like, "Everybody's

booked, I need a gaffer.

845

I need somebody to help me with, you know,

846

the electric side of things."

847

Or, "I need a camera operator.

848

I want somebody that I can trust

849

that's gonna be an awesome B cam."

850

Like I'm like, "Call me, let me know."

851

Like, there's no ego.

852

Like I love to be on set, I

love to work with friends,

853

and I like to return those favors too.

854

And so if somebody has a passion project

855

and they like can't pay me,

856

like what my normal rate would

be, like if I'm available

857

and I have the time to

do it, like I'm 100% in.

858

Like, that'd be so much fun.

859

I just, I don't know, I

just love being on set.

860

I love getting to work,

I love the relationships,

861

and I love the creative process

862

and being a part of it, so yeah.

863

- Yeah, that's really cool.

864

I think just even your answer, and I mean,

865

so many other things that

speak in to just like,

866

your love for people and

your love for filmmaking,

867

and it's just like seeing

those two things come together

868

is just, it seems like it's a joy for you,

869

and I think that kinda

shines through your work.

870

- Thanks, man. No, it's

been a great journey.

871

I will say there's like

at least one day a month

872

where I'm like, "Maybe I

should just go flip burgers."

873

I'm like, so tired and so

exhausted and it's such a grind.

874

But I keep coming back

to it, and I love it.

875

And it is satisfying.

876

I mean, we're creating

something out of nothing.

877

Like nothing existed,

and then all of a sudden

878

you have something that you're

getting to share with people,

879

that like inspire them,

that move them, you know,

880

to look at life through a different lens,

881

and open up to a world

that they never knew.

882

And like that's such an amazing gift,

883

to be able to get to be a part of that.

884

So I think that's probably

like, why I keep doing this,

885

'cause there is that satisfaction

886

of getting to like, inspire

others, I don't know.

887

- Yeah, you're a dad now,

888

so you have two kids.

- Yep.

889

- Briggs is about to turn three.

890

- Yep.

- Tilly is-

891

- Nine months, yeah.

- Nine months, okay.

892

I imagine that probably

spills over into like,

893

you being a dad now,

like inspiring others.

894

Like I'm sure that you want to

be this inspiration for them.

895

I'm putting words in your mouth,

896

I'm assuming this is probably the case.

897

This is how I feel as a dad.

898

But for me, like whenever we were pregnant

899

with our first, Judah, and you know,

900

I was kind of at this

like tipping point of,

901

I knew like a career change

was about to be forced upon me,

902

as I was like ending

this temporary residency

903

as a filmmaker, and it was like,

904

do I want to pursue being

known as a filmmaker,

905

or do I want to pursue

being known as a dad?

906

And like at this point in my life,

907

I didn't think the two could coexist.

908

And so I chose, you know,

909

the just chasing after being a dad

910

as like the thing that I wanted to do.

911

And so for me now, you

know, like six years later,

912

it's fun and encouraging

for me to see, you know,

913

people who are doing

both well, and that like,

914

this thing that I didn't

think was possible

915

actually is possible.

916

Like, our kids go to the same

school, so I get to see you,

917

you know, show up for Briggs

and show up for Tilly.

918

And like, how do you balance

those two things well,

919

and like-

- That's a great question.

920

- What does that look like?

921

- I don't know if I do it well, but I try.

922

I don't know, I'm learning.

923

Like I mean, being a father

of a three-year-old, you know,

924

and a nine-month old,

like, we're still new.

925

It still feels new, you know?

926

And they're constantly changing,

927

and what their needs are, are changing.

928

And so it's a challenge.

929

So I'll start with this.

930

My dad is incredible, so I

have him as a great model.

931

My father, you know I grew up,

932

the second half of my childhood,

933

I grew up in a single parent home,

934

'cause my mother passed away

from cancer when I was young.

935

And my dad was there.

936

You know, he rose to the occasion.

937

You know, I was the oldest of three.

938

You know, he'd have breakfast

ready in the morning,

939

we'd get to school, you

know, we'd come home.

940

We had help from like family and friends.

941

Grandmother was like basically

like, second mother to us.

942

She would be there when

we'd get home from school.

943

My dad would go to work,

but somehow he came

944

to all of our sporting

events, and coached.

945

Not even just like showed up,

946

but like was coaching everything.

947

I always knew, like looking

ahead when I was not,

948

didn't have kids, when I wasn't a father,

949

I wasn't married yet,

that I wanna be there

950

for my kids someday, like

my dad was there for us.

951

But I knew that this filmmaking career

952

is a little bit trickier

than most 9:00 to 5:00 jobs,

953

because we're required to travel so much,

954

and it's kinda like, you get

called, and if you say no,

955

then you're not getting a paycheck.

956

And so it's like, you kinda

have to find this balance

957

of like, what projects do I wanna take?

958

Like, does financially does

it make sense to accept,

959

you know, this project?

960

How long am I gonna be away for?

961

And I wanna be there for my kids,

962

and right now it's kind

of easy, 'cause it's like,

963

they don't necessarily

know if I'm gone or not.

964

But as they get older and

they like, are playing sports,

965

or they have certain school

activities or events like,

966

but currently right now,

you know, I probably travel

967

you know, maybe around

a third of every month

968

if you total up all the days.

969

Maybe it's two to three days here,

970

five days there or whatever.

971

And so I'm gone, like I'm gone.

972

And thankfully there's like FaceTime,

973

so like I can at least

have some kinda connection.

974

But it's nothing compared

to like the real deal,

975

of like getting a hold your child,

976

and you know, get them down, read books,

977

and you know, hold them and

tell them you love them.

978

And so when I am home,

I make it a priority

979

to be as fully present as I can be.

980

Like, that's all I can do.

981

And it's one of those things

like, I wish I could do more,

982

but realistically it's just not possible.

983

I could beat myself up over

the fact that I'm gone,

984

you know, the 10 days I am a month,

985

or I can say, "You know what?

986

I'm gone those 10 days,

that's just the way it is.

987

But when I'm home, I'm fully

here, like hanging out,

988

like getting them to

daycare, or cooking meals,

989

reading books at night."

990

And so yeah, I don't

have it all figured out.

991

I wish there was a way to somehow do both.

992

You know, I've looked

at many opportunities

993

where I'm like, "Should

I just look at like,

994

doing something that I'm just like here,

995

like working from Austin all the time,

996

and sacrifice doing

some of these other jobs

997

that require a lotta travel?"

998

And we haven't figured that one out yet.

999

But you know, we've gotta earn a living,

00:41:38,910 --> 00:41:41,610

and so, you know, this is

the career path I chose.

00:41:41,610 --> 00:41:44,100

And I've been in it long enough now,

00:41:44,100 --> 00:41:46,680

it feels like it would

be a mistake to get out.

00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:48,810

Like, not that I'm like super established,

00:41:48,810 --> 00:41:51,120

but I'm established enough, that you know,

00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,640

work comes in and I'm grateful for that.

00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,620

And so I'm gonna keep answering that call.

00:41:55,620 --> 00:41:59,880

But yeah, no, I love my

kids, I love my wife,

00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:01,260

and I wanna be home with them.

00:42:01,260 --> 00:42:03,060

Like, now I wanna be home more.

00:42:03,060 --> 00:42:05,817

Like when I leave it's like,

00:42:05,817 --> 00:42:08,820

"(sighing) I have to

leave again, this sucks."

00:42:08,820 --> 00:42:09,987

I just wanna be home with them.

00:42:09,987 --> 00:42:13,290

But I'm taking the latest flight out

00:42:13,290 --> 00:42:15,810

that I can to leave, so I can be around.

00:42:15,810 --> 00:42:18,000

And I'm taking the earliest flight out

00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,040

to get back in time to hang out with them,

00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,874

and just trying to get

as much time with them.

00:42:22,874 --> 00:42:26,190

'Cause it, as you know, as

a young parent, time flies.

00:42:26,190 --> 00:42:29,640

Like things change, like so quickly,

00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,213

and I don't wanna miss that.

00:42:31,213 --> 00:42:35,190

I don't wanna miss this season

of life with them, so yeah.

00:42:35,190 --> 00:42:36,023

- Well it's really encouraging,

00:42:36,023 --> 00:42:38,880

just to watch you do those things,

00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,670

and obviously not perfect, but well.

00:42:41,670 --> 00:42:44,550

And so like for me again,

as someone who's just,

00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:47,310

maybe didn't believe that

that was possible, so it's,

00:42:47,310 --> 00:42:49,680

one thing that you mentioned was,

00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,250

you were emotionally drawn to

filmmaking, or films as a kid.

00:42:53,250 --> 00:42:54,270

And then one day realized

00:42:54,270 --> 00:42:56,910

that it's something that

you could actually do.

00:42:56,910 --> 00:43:00,427

What did that moment look

like whenever you realized,

00:43:00,427 --> 00:43:01,560

"Oh, I could be doing this thing

00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,090

that I was always emotionally drawn to?"

00:43:03,090 --> 00:43:05,400

Like, how old do you think you were?

00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:06,830

- I think it was, I mean,

00:43:06,830 --> 00:43:08,880

it was my senior year of high school.

00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,780

I ended up getting like a

bootleg copy of Adobe Premiere,

00:43:12,780 --> 00:43:15,110

like way back in the day,

and was able to like,

00:43:15,110 --> 00:43:17,550

'cause like everything we

shot at that point in time,

00:43:17,550 --> 00:43:19,920

we shot chronologically,

on like Hi8 cameras,

00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,480

or whatever.

- MiniDVs.

00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:22,987

- Yeah, not even MiniDVs

yet, at that time.

00:43:22,987 --> 00:43:25,200

There was like our parents' camcorders

00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,063

that they had in like

the early '90s, I think.

00:43:28,063 --> 00:43:32,550

And that's where I was like,

"Wow, this is incredible.

00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:34,590

I think this is something

that I wanna pursue."

00:43:34,590 --> 00:43:38,640

And I mean, already had

been accepted to Texas A&M,

00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,800

where I was gonna be studying engineering.

00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,120

Didn't know any filmmakers.

00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,550

So I was like, "Well I

mean, I don't see how

00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:45,900

I'm gonna do this as a living,

00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:47,460

so I should probably get a degree."

00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:48,397

But my counselor was like,

00:43:48,397 --> 00:43:51,120

"Look, I know the guys at

the athletic department,

00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:52,830

there's the 12th Man Productions.

00:43:52,830 --> 00:43:55,710

Like this would be a great

opportunity for you to get,

00:43:55,710 --> 00:43:58,560

you know, some professional

cameras, learn to edit,

00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,447

work on a TV show and whatnot."

00:44:00,447 --> 00:44:02,700

And so really grateful

that she brought that

00:44:02,700 --> 00:44:04,440

to my attention, 'cause

I ended up working there

00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,480

for about two years until I was like,

00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,550

burnt out of dealing with sports.

00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:10,410

'Cause when you work in

sports, you're only working

00:44:10,410 --> 00:44:12,510

like Friday, Saturday nights,

when everyone's going out

00:44:12,510 --> 00:44:13,980

having a fun time, but

you're logging footage

00:44:13,980 --> 00:44:15,960

until 2:00 AM in the morning.

00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,060

But yeah, like it was just

all these little things

00:44:18,060 --> 00:44:20,220

that kinda snowballed, where you know,

00:44:20,220 --> 00:44:24,090

there was only one other

filmmaker at A&M at that time,

00:44:24,090 --> 00:44:27,174

because, you know, these little cameras

00:44:27,174 --> 00:44:30,273

that we all carry around

with us today didn't exist.

00:44:31,260 --> 00:44:36,260

And he and I both owned

a Panasonic AG-DVX100.

00:44:36,570 --> 00:44:39,630

It shot MiniDVs, but

it was the first like,

00:44:39,630 --> 00:44:42,600

prosumer camera that shot

24 frames per second,

00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,660

that gave it this filmic

look, this cinematic look,

00:44:45,660 --> 00:44:47,190

that you could not achieve

00:44:47,190 --> 00:44:48,630

on any other camera prior to that.

00:44:48,630 --> 00:44:49,463

Everything else looked like,

00:44:49,463 --> 00:44:51,390

would've been on the news or a soap opera.

00:44:51,390 --> 00:44:54,243

Met another guy who was a filmmaker,

00:44:55,110 --> 00:44:56,730

kinda the tail end of of that,

00:44:56,730 --> 00:44:58,530

and we kind of all landed in Austin,

00:44:58,530 --> 00:45:01,380

and that's how I found myself here.

00:45:01,380 --> 00:45:03,895

And you know, you work with those guys

00:45:03,895 --> 00:45:05,550

and then you just keep

building out, you know,

00:45:05,550 --> 00:45:07,920

your network, and who you're working with,

00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:09,330

and telling stories.

- The common thread

00:45:09,330 --> 00:45:11,630

of relationship again,

coming into this story.

00:45:13,131 --> 00:45:16,530

And so much technologically

has changed since then,

00:45:16,530 --> 00:45:19,710

and it seems to be rapidly changing still.

00:45:19,710 --> 00:45:22,470

It can either be approached

from intimidation,

00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:24,390

or it can be approached as like,

00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:25,920

which I've been trying

to do lately is like,

00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,800

how can I utilize this to

make my processes better,

00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,050

so that I can be freed

up to be more creative?

00:45:31,050 --> 00:45:33,060

What has been your, like

as you've gone through

00:45:33,060 --> 00:45:35,040

so much change, and now like AI being

00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:36,240

just like this new catalyst.

00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:38,460

Like have you put any thought into that,

00:45:38,460 --> 00:45:40,360

or like have you-

- I'm a slow developer.

00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:41,775

- Utilized any? Okay.

00:45:41,775 --> 00:45:45,030

- I haven't, I have not

even scratched the surface

00:45:45,030 --> 00:45:48,903

of what's possible and how I wanna use it.

00:45:49,830 --> 00:45:52,770

It's one of those things, like I have seen

00:45:52,770 --> 00:45:55,290

and explored some ways to like,

00:45:55,290 --> 00:45:58,230

where I see it as a valuable tool.

00:45:58,230 --> 00:46:02,850

But I mean, technology from

cameras, to lighting, AI,

00:46:02,850 --> 00:46:06,630

like it's something that,

it's hard to keep up.

00:46:06,630 --> 00:46:09,660

Like, it's so important to understand,

00:46:09,660 --> 00:46:13,110

all of those things are tools that help us

00:46:13,110 --> 00:46:15,417

tell the stories that

we're trying to tell.

00:46:15,417 --> 00:46:19,197

And the story, like the way we

tell a story doesn't change.

00:46:19,197 --> 00:46:21,247

- You just took the words outta my mouth.

00:46:22,170 --> 00:46:23,471

- I mean like, yeah.

00:46:23,471 --> 00:46:25,770

I mean like tech, like

the cameras we have now,

00:46:25,770 --> 00:46:28,920

like, I mean, I've seen

so many incredible videos

00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,810

and like, you know, they've just shot this

00:46:30,810 --> 00:46:32,910

on whatever camera with no budget,

00:46:32,910 --> 00:46:34,350

and it's like, it looks amazing.

00:46:34,350 --> 00:46:36,540

But like, if there's not a great story,

00:46:36,540 --> 00:46:37,860

like what's bringing me to it?

00:46:37,860 --> 00:46:39,720

And so, you know, it's

one of those things,

00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:44,100

like any of these things

are great tools to help,

00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:45,900

you know, us be storytellers,

00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:47,670

but ultimately still relies on somebody

00:46:47,670 --> 00:46:49,470

that knows how to tell a story,

00:46:49,470 --> 00:46:51,570

and be able to interact with people,

00:46:51,570 --> 00:46:55,380

and like, have a good

relationship with his crew

00:46:55,380 --> 00:46:56,520

and be able to communicate.

00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,340

Like, there's still all

these things that you do need

00:46:59,340 --> 00:47:04,110

to assist you in being

a great storyteller,

00:47:04,110 --> 00:47:06,870

a great filmmaker, beyond just the tools,

00:47:06,870 --> 00:47:09,870

the physical tools that you

can hold in your hands, so.

00:47:09,870 --> 00:47:12,000

- Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,580

Just like the tool is just a tool

00:47:14,580 --> 00:47:17,040

until it's put in the

hands of a storyteller,

00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,550

and like story has, you know,

always been what story is,

00:47:20,550 --> 00:47:22,980

for as long as humanity has been around.

00:47:22,980 --> 00:47:24,270

Like, story just permeates,

00:47:24,270 --> 00:47:26,520

and continues to just be this constant,

00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,220

and these tools are just, you know, tools.

00:47:29,220 --> 00:47:31,650

They're just ways to help us tell stories

00:47:31,650 --> 00:47:33,900

in a more efficient way, or

maybe in a different way.

00:47:33,900 --> 00:47:35,100

Yeah, I think that rings true.

00:47:35,100 --> 00:47:39,420

Is like, story is always

gonna be story, and-

00:47:39,420 --> 00:47:40,830

- Story's gonna be story.

00:47:40,830 --> 00:47:43,200

- Yah, so on that note,

I would just love to know

00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,140

why story is important

from someone who, you know,

00:47:46,140 --> 00:47:48,360

tells story through film.

00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:53,360

- Hmm, the story

inspires, story preserves.

00:47:55,860 --> 00:48:00,720

Story makes you feel

things and appreciate life.

00:48:03,030 --> 00:48:08,030

I'm such like a cry baby,

and like, I'm so emotional.

00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,860

Like I really invest in story.

00:48:10,860 --> 00:48:13,860

Like so yeah, I mean I

think story's important,

00:48:13,860 --> 00:48:16,743

you know, for perspective,

00:48:17,694 --> 00:48:22,203

to get to see other worlds

that we don't, you know,

00:48:23,835 --> 00:48:26,610

we always joke around that

like, being a filmmaker

00:48:26,610 --> 00:48:29,193

is like having a backstage pass in life.

00:48:30,150 --> 00:48:34,557

Like the places that we get to go,

00:48:34,557 --> 00:48:36,480

and the people we get to sit down with,

00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,180

like, nobody else gets

access to do these things,

00:48:39,180 --> 00:48:41,130

but because we have a camera in our hand,

00:48:41,130 --> 00:48:43,260

we're given these opportunities.

00:48:43,260 --> 00:48:47,190

And so it's a responsibility

to be able to,

00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:49,830

you know, to share, to tell these stories

00:48:49,830 --> 00:48:53,910

that maybe people would never

get to hear or experience.

00:48:53,910 --> 00:48:57,326

You know, I don't know how many

people would've known about,

00:48:57,326 --> 00:48:58,777

I don't know how many

people knew of Kenny prior,

00:48:58,777 --> 00:49:02,250

you know, to Kenny Sailors

getting to tell this film.

00:49:02,250 --> 00:49:04,860

But I knew that this would

be a great opportunity

00:49:04,860 --> 00:49:07,230

and a platform to get to tell his story

00:49:07,230 --> 00:49:10,680

and hopefully inspire, you

know, people in whatever way,

00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,060

you know, however they see it,

00:49:12,060 --> 00:49:17,060

but to be a, you know, a

husband or a father or a mentor.

00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:20,730

And so, I don't know, yeah.

00:49:20,730 --> 00:49:24,060

That's kind of the long-winded,

as I was processing that

00:49:24,060 --> 00:49:25,530

as we were sitting here.

00:49:25,530 --> 00:49:27,426

- No, that's good, that's good.

00:49:27,426 --> 00:49:29,550

I think yeah, I agree with all of that.

00:49:29,550 --> 00:49:33,810

And so for everyone who's

listening, would you just,

00:49:33,810 --> 00:49:35,310

can they follow you on

social media and like-

00:49:35,310 --> 00:49:36,840

- Yeah, sure, yeah if you want to.

00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,210

I don't, it's a bunch of kid photos now

00:49:39,210 --> 00:49:40,260

these days I feel like.

00:49:40,260 --> 00:49:44,490

But yeah, Jacob Ryan

Hamilton is my Instagram.

00:49:44,490 --> 00:49:48,450

That's probably the

one I'm most active on.

00:49:48,450 --> 00:49:52,710

And then if you wanna

tune into Kenny Sailors,

00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:55,200

you know, the "Jump Shot" movie,

00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,530

that's on iTunes and

Amazon to be able to rent.

00:49:58,530 --> 00:49:59,850

And I guess, you know,

00:49:59,850 --> 00:50:03,330

there's also another documentary

called "Facing Nolan"

00:50:03,330 --> 00:50:04,890

that definitely should check out too,

00:50:04,890 --> 00:50:06,030

that's on Netflix right now.

00:50:06,030 --> 00:50:08,280

So, I was their cinematographer

on that, but yeah.

00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:13,280

- Well Jacob, thank you again

so much for coming on today,

00:50:13,475 --> 00:50:14,970

and being our very first guest.

00:50:14,970 --> 00:50:17,310

Like, I'm just really honored

that you would take the time

00:50:17,310 --> 00:50:19,740

out of what has been a

busy schedule for you.

00:50:19,740 --> 00:50:21,090

You just came back from Colorado,

00:50:21,090 --> 00:50:22,830

and you're about to be on the road again.

00:50:22,830 --> 00:50:25,678

Like man, just thank you

so much for joining us-

00:50:25,678 --> 00:50:27,600

- Absolutely.

- And sharing all the wisdom

00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:28,500

that you had to provide, so.