Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 7 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here. 

I'd like to introduce you to Dr Hayley Lewis. Hayley is the founder of Halo Psychology - and as an occupational psychologist she provides expert and evidence based support for individuals, teams and organisations going through transition.

In this episode - you'll get to know Hayley and she's very open about her career experience to date and what made her take the final leap to establish Halo Psychology. We chat about the motivation to take those leaps and how we present them to the world, her approach to her profession, psychological safety and a whole lot more. You'll also get to hear Hayley's song choice and the reason for her doctoral research topic. It was a joy to speak to Hayley and I hope you'll feel that from the conversation.

People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about sharing the ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond.

There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.

• Other resources from Halo Psychology and Dr Hayley Lewis - Google Drive
• Psychological Safety: A Systematic Review of the Literature by Alexander Newman, Ross Donohue and Nathan Eva
• HALO Psychology - subscribe to the newsletter
• Follow Hayley on Instagram
• Follow Hayley on Twitter
• Connect with Hayley on LinkedIn
• The Halo Psychology website

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Part 1 - Hayley Lewis & Halo Psychology

[00:00:07] Hayley: I love that song because I spent. So much of my life and my working life, hiding who I was and pretending to be someone I wasn't, because I thought I wasn't good enough. So, you know, I'm a working class girl from south London grew up in the seventies. My niece, can't still can't get ahead around the fact that I talk around the fact we had an outside toilet for the first few years of my life.

[00:00:58] Hayley: And within a few years, ended up in a, in a role at the BBC in admin and then went into the psychology team and people all spoke with really posh voices. For example, the, you know, everybody spoke in a certain way. Many of the people that worked there were from private educated, backgrounds. And I just felt embarrassed. And I remember like, after a couple of years, particularly working in the psychology team, my sister commented on that. So she's like, why are you talking like that?

[00:01:59] Ross: some trends in the [00:02:00] conversations that she has with her clients, how she fits everything in, and a whole lot more. You'll also get to hear Haley's song choice and the underlying reasons for her doctoral research topic. It was a joy to speak to Haley, and I hope you'll feel that from this conversation.

[00:02:47] Ross: On Instagram. Jill sent me a message and said, hi, Ross, loved your interview with Mike Jones. Such a good reminder to accept that life isn't always good and that wellbeing starts with your mind. He's totally right about your voice. Would be brilliant for mindfulness recordings, Feliz Navad, and that's from Jill in Morpeth.

[00:03:16] Ross: Thank you so much and with your help we'll reach more people with behavioral science that could be useful for them in the workplace. So for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Haley Lewis. So Dr. Haley Lewis welcome to people soup.

[00:03:41] Ross: I'm absolutely delighted. You've been on my list forever

[00:03:47] Ross: and it's a right thrill to have you.

[00:03:54] Ross: Brilliant. I'm sure they will. Now you might be familiar. I've got a research [00:04:00] department who delve into your background a bit and they've given me some notes, which I'm gonna share with you. They don't always get everything. Right. So,

[00:04:11] Ross: So it says here, Dr. Haley Lewis is a chartered psychologist, coach, teacher consultant, sketch note doodler, a pracademic all in the service of making work better. Her consultancy halo psychology works with individuals, teams and organizations in transition challenges like supporting leaders. Who've been promoted.

[00:05:04] Ross: How are we doing so far? Haley does this sound

[00:05:12] Ross: well,

[00:05:14] Ross: Well, some people me do regard you as a, as a superhero. If you're prepared to take on that mantle or maybe, maybe wear a Cape.

[00:05:45] Hayley: so it meant that I was kind of working myself into the ground. people. Won't be able to see it, but I've got a bit of a wry smile. certainly I take our profession really seriously, Ross and, Take our ethics very seriously and believe in being in the service of others.

[00:06:11] Ross: probably. I think, I think we all do if we're willing to reflect on it and go there and thanks for being so open P supers, this is just a flavor of Haley and who she is. She's open, she's authentic, and this makes her such a great practitioner. In fact, you've been described as a combination of a high beam torch.

[00:06:55] Ross: here. Research is fascinating. It explored the psychological factors, enabling women who run micro businesses in the UK to succeed. And we'll come back to that a bit later on in the conversation they've got more. Haley is also a guest lecturer at several UK universities on masters programs in organizational and business.

[00:07:20] Ross: met you when I did my masters all those years ago, I reckon it was about seven. You gave this stunning lecture about your work and your approach, and it still sticks

[00:07:33] Ross: Well, absolutely. And I know everyone else was like, wow, I want to be Hailey.

[00:07:57] Hayley: So I did my master's back in [00:08:00] 99 at city. And I remember getting frustrated with some of the particularly professional, series sessions where it felt like we were being sold to. for me, what's always at the back of my mind, whether I'm working with students. Delivering lectures or working with my clients through my consultancy is always, what's gonna give these people maximum value.

[00:08:38] Hayley: So it's really nice to have that, that feedback.

[00:09:04] Ross: And I highly recommend all the listeners check them out because they're super useful and you could find them on Haley's social media. And also subscribe to the whole back catalog and all the details will be in the show notes for this episode, because they really are great.

[00:09:37] Hayley: You know, my core focus is middle managers in local government, you know, it doesn't mean I don't work with others. but that's always kind of who I've got my eye on and there's so much brilliant research and evidence out there that we access a psychologist, but other, other people will never either access it or, or when you do read it, I mean, I struggle with [00:10:00] some academic journals, you know, I have to read each sentence. 20 times sometimes. and so I kind of see myself as a bit of a translator. if a middle manager, for example, looks at one of my sketch notes and it gives them some ideas, gives them a bit more confidence. It gives them on some ideas of how to work with their teams. And I see that as my job done, even better.

[00:10:55] Hayley: I find it really soothing and, and immersive. So, so yeah, it's not totally altruistic.

[00:11:19] Hayley: Exactly and, and having having come out. The other side of my doctorate, I now really understand the blood, sweat, tears, joy heartache that goes into kind of researching your studies and writing them up. And. yeah, just as you say, to have them sit there on a, on a dusty shelf, whether virtual or otherwise, it's just so sad.

[00:12:09] Ross: and in typical chart tradition, she's risen from number 21. in 21, up to number 13 this

[00:12:17] Hayley: lucky for some

[00:12:20] Hayley: not for me. No.

[00:12:34] Ross: And then held a variety of leadership positions at Croydon council, including leading on the mahoosive job of communication and engagement.

[00:13:02] Hayley: And back then in my, I just turned 31. So very ambitious, didn't know any better, and, and just saw things very traditionally in terms of work my way up. it just wasn't possible at that time. so I kind of stepped out, went into local government, had the intention of going for two years as part of my grand plan of I'm gonna work in every sector, as, as a kind of an Occ Psych

[00:13:46] Hayley: I think I bought something a bit different to the table because of my background as a psychologist. And so it, meant that people in the local authority were really curious about me. So I ended up being kind of internally headhunted. and so the upside of that is I, I kind of went into [00:14:00] more and more senior roles, really interesting roles.

[00:14:23] Hayley: So I was responsible for media relations nationally and internationally. I was responsible for digital services to almost 400,000 residents. I was responsible for public consultation where there's legal requirements, freedom of information, you know, just a whole host of things. That really put me in the eye of the storm working. I was working really closely with politicians from both sides of the chamber, as well as working at the highest level in local and central government. And, I was completely out of my depth. And the weird thing is that was the role I had the longest.

[00:15:13] Hayley: It took me a good year to come back from that. I'm always surprised when I'm like, God, I was in that role four years. And, and the interesting thing for me was I never, certainly at the start of that role, I felt like a fraud. It's like, I'm not, I don't have a comms background. You know, I haven't been a journalist or in PR or anything like that.

[00:15:51] Hayley: I'm a psychologist. Is that what a train does in the, in the late nineties is what it's always been me and. that took a long time to undo and to kind of get back [00:16:00] to people realizing that I'm a psychologist, but actually I think there's something also about honoring the experience of being in roles, like the head of comms and, you know, head of customer service strategy and stuff like that.

[00:16:31] Hayley: I'm not just kind of coming at them, spouting a load of psychological theory and I've never. Run a service or had to face down a union or deal with a load of angry residents or been on the front page of the news, or, you know, I've lived and breathed that stuff. And, and so that's why people, I think seek me out.

[00:17:06] Ross: Here here. Absolutely. Because I think people don't talk enough about their experiences in their, their career. And particularly to those times where it's been really challenging and really difficult, they tend to. Think about perhaps putting the, the LinkedIn gloss or the, the polished CV about all the achievements, but they don't talk about the, the corresponding challenges or dark times.

[00:17:43] Hayley: and if it's not, and if you are talking about life as if it's not perfect, then there's something wrong with you. You are broken and that's just not true at all. Yeah. I love what you've just said, Ross, that there's something powerful in just embracing our human condition warts and all the good stuff.

[00:18:26] Hayley: Cuz I want to give people hope is when I pretty much had a breakdown and kind of my way back from that, because so many of my clients, particularly across local government, the blue light services, NHS are at breaking point. or have broken, and, and kind of by sharing my own stories and experiences, some clients have said it gives them hope that there's a way back, whether it's to the same thing or something different. So yeah. listeners share your stories.

[00:19:05] Hayley: Yeah.

[00:19:15] Ross: are.

[00:19:17] You're not broken or faulty

[00:19:38] Hayley: They, they kind of come to that first session where, where you're kind of really crystallizing what is gonna make the difference. what's, what's kind of your objective with this and kind of when we start to dig deep, the thing that they all have in common, regardless of their background or Experience they, talk about the, the issue that they're facing as though they're the only person and they're, they're faulty in some way and they should do [00:20:00] better.

[00:20:16] Hayley: It's just me. Everybody else seems to be coping and doing really well, whether it's dealing with a difficult member of staff or juggling all the things as a parent or a carer, And what I find, just because I'm privileged enough for people to open up to me through coaching or mentoring is I'm kind of here to tell people, no, you're not alone.

[00:20:46] Ross: Beautiful. I love that. now we've had some. Amazing insights already into your career. Is there any other pivotal moment in your career that you, you talked to us about? Just give us an insight into how that was maybe the decision making or, how you were

[00:21:01] Hayley: mm. I think one of the, the most powerful, pivotal moments and, and it was one of the reasons that made me go into the. Research topic I did for my doctorate was the catalyst for me, leaving a very highly paid, very prestigious role in local government to set up on my own, to set up my own business.

[00:21:40] Hayley: And, it almost became like the, girl who cried Wolf. I'd say to my husband, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna leave. I tell my friends I'm gonna leave. And then at the last minute wouldn't, because there was a fear particularly I'm the sole wage earner in my family.

[00:22:08] Hayley: And I was kind of like, yeah, you know, I'm doing right. But it was just always there. there was just this tiny little voice and I ignored her. Anyway. so late 2015, my dad became ill With mental health issues. And it was an awful time. Anyway, long story short, he died unexpectedly at the start of 2016.

[00:22:48] Hayley: So terminal cancer and my husband and I sub you know, we had a holiday book, just before mom's first chemotherapy treatment. And. We were in, in my well, in our happy place, Dartmoor, we were walking and,

[00:23:01] Hayley: and I said to my husband, I'm gonna do it this time. I was 42 at that point.

[00:23:23] Hayley: And he was like, you know, that I'll support you, whatever you want to do. We had enough savings behind us, cuz we were both kids of the seventies. So quite prudent with money and had enough to cover costs for the year. Like our mortgage and everyth. So the weekend after my holiday, I handed my notice in and my boss had been waiting and I think long story short, there was something around what's the worst that could happen because the worst had already happened.

[00:24:05] Hayley: And so that's kind of where I was, but it kind of, it then made me really curious.

[00:24:09] Hayley: I remember when I went for my interview to do the doctorate. And I was asked about my motivations and, and kind of, I looked at

[00:24:58] Bold moves

[00:25:06] Ross: There's a tendency for people to want to try and hide that rather. Hell celebrate it. This makes you different. This means you took a bold move and I'm interested in people who take bold, moves, whatever the outcome,

[00:25:33] Psychological safety

[00:25:54] Hayley: And they kind of came away understanding that actually it's about changing the narrative of failure. And it's about the [00:26:00] lessons that you learn. And, and so thinking in relation to what you've just said, Ross, actually it's about sharing the lessons that you've learned. If something, if you've tried something, you know, you've set up a business or done a side hustle, I hate that phrase side hustle, but all the millennials use it on Instagram.

[00:26:33] Ross: because I often hear an organization talking about psychological safety. I dunno about you, but it's one. The key themes that is really popular, but talking about it and actually working out how you might cultivate it is a, is a totally different thing

[00:27:05] Hayley: And one of the areas that we dig into, as I say is psychological safety. And I share it's one of my favorite studies. Yes, I have favorite studies, led by Alex Newman Who is a psychologist in Australia, and it's a systematic review of psychological safety of the, the characteristics of psychological safety, but also the factors that help facilitate it.

[00:27:50] Hayley: And you need to be honest with that. It starts and ends with you. and that's uncomfortable for some because I think some of the, the, not all, but some of the leaders and managers I work with it's far [00:28:00] easier. And they've learned over the years to look outside of themselves, it's a broken process or it's the culture of the organization or it's this and that might be true to some extent, but you are part of the culture and you are. Part of the problem. And as Melissa McCarthy says in bridesmaids, just as your part of the problem, you are also your own solution. One of my favorite films can never watch it enough.

[00:28:31] Hayley: So, well, whenever it's on, if there's nothing else on, I'll watch her, my husband's like, are you watching this again? yeah, I love it. But yeah, she says that to, to Kristen V's character towards the end, she's like, just as you, your own problem, you, your also your own solution. And that's kind of what I say to the leaders that I, I work with.

[00:28:48] Hayley: I, I worked with a really wise woman, when I went to local government, Cheryl, She's she's an Australian woman, I was in awe of her just so wise. And she used to say, you know, one finger pointing out four fingers pointing back at yourself. Like when you do that, people obviously can't see what I'm doing, but yeah, when you're pointing your, your fingers go down and point towards yourself.

[00:29:13] Ross: Beautiful. Thank you. And Hailey, I've got a slightly left field question. It's a question. I ask all my guests, but a song choice. If you had a song choice that would announce your arrival in a virtual. or a real room, even in your house for the next few weeks, months? Not forever, perhaps, although it might be forever.

[00:29:37] Hayley: Yeah, I've got two, but if I had to choose one. It's don't stop me now by queen. Love it. And that's, that's what I'm all about. I, I kind of just keep going.

[00:29:50] Hayley: Absolutely. I'm gonna

[00:29:52] Ross: time.

[00:29:53] Ross: I'm having a ball.

[00:30:19] Hayley: who don't know each other, but have said the same thing. They've said I'm like a Terminator sent from the future to bust through, to do lists cuz. Get stuff done. My husband says that as well. And so, yeah, don't just, don't stop me now. I'm just going to do stuff and keep going and have fun doing it.

[00:30:55] Hayley: yeah, I always joke I should get the Hermione Time Turner.

[00:31:15] Hayley: So I was kind of caring for my mom. And after she died, in November, 2020, I just kept the Friday as a non-work day. and yes, but I still managed to get stuff done. And I think it's because. I'm very focused on what matters. you know, I don't let email manage me. It's the other way.

[00:31:53] Hayley: I mean, I've always been like that, but it kind of amplified as I got older and, and kind of went into more, more senior roles and [00:32:00] I've kind of just taken that into my business as well. And, and, you know, I, I have a portfolio career. I don't just run halo. There's other things that I do. And so I have to be organized. And I think it's, it also helps. And it goes back to the start of our conversation, Ross, about what, what I see my purpose as particularly as an occupational psychologist, what I'm here to do, who I'm here to serve through the work that I do. And that kind of keeps me almost that's as a compass for keeping me true to what matters. In terms of the content I produce in terms of the work that I say yes to, and the work I say no to, I sometimes say no to certain clients or certain pieces of work. And I I'm conscious of the privileged position around that, but I've also earned that, through my experience and, the good and the bad experience.

[00:32:58] Ross: Wonderful. And, and that's beautiful role modeling as well for us.

[00:33:29] Hayley: So Occ Psychs they've, you know, they've done their masters, some of them a long time ago, some more recently they're doing their kind of HCPC practice. logs ahead of then doing part two of the doctorate. And when we're kind of organizing the weekend schools, for example, around the core disciplines of Oxy. So around for example, wellbeing or organizational change or leadership or whatever. It's really important to me that I'm role modeling the stuff that we are talking about in terms of the theory. So we had the last weekend [00:34:00] school was a couple of weekends ago and we, it was about wellbeing in the workplace, which is one of the five strands of Oxy. And it was about kind of, one of the things we looked at was around work life balance.

[00:34:26] Hayley: Again, I believed in living that, didn't always get it right again, human condition, but I was certainly open to the feedback from my teams.

[00:34:49] Hayley: I agree. And, and again, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, when we see others who are maybe not dissimilar from us, doing things in a certain way and seem to be thriving. Or maybe I could do it too. that's kind of where I always wanna leave people is okay. Maybe I could do it too.

[00:35:23] Hayley: So starting off on their journey. And I think sometimes we can all fall into this trap. They're comparing where they are now with where I am now. And I have to kind of gently remind them what you are not seeing is that, you know, particularly with, with new folk in the field of Occ Psych, the last session I ran at City

[00:35:54] Ross: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:36:13] Hayley: Cuz they're completely different journeys.

[00:36:28] Ross: Wimbledon yet.

[00:36:30] Ross: like,

[00:36:34] Hayley: and that's a really important point, Ross, because it's all the hard work. And the battles and the lessons learned and the consistent showing up that sits behind that achievement. And that's what I talk to students and some of my clients about, and again, it came up yesterday with this group of leaders.

[00:37:20] Hayley: And I say, you know, you, you're probably sitting here looking at this, some of you thinking, oh, this is too much like hard work and that's, completely justified. And so you have a choice. Your choice is to carry on as you are, which is a legitimate choice. Absolutely fine. Are you gonna take your team to the next level? Maybe not. Own your consequences of that choice. Do you wanna take your team to the next level? Well, then you might need to try some different stuff and be consistent in applying that. And I say this to someone of my clients. You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't magically click your finger or wriggle your nose like Samantha in Bewitched.

[00:38:15] Hayley: That's okay. But take the consequences of that choice and we don't always wanna do that,

[00:38:24] Hayley: but owning your choices.

[00:38:28] Hayley: Yeah, not doing, something is a, is a legitimate choice,

[00:38:41] Ross: I love it. I love it. Now being of curious nature, I also need to ask, you said you had two choices for your song. What was the second choice

[00:39:28] Hayley: And me, mum used to wash me in the sink in the kitchen and cut my hair with a bowl on my head. there is pictorial evidence, which you'll never see the light of day, but anyway, that aside, you know, education was a way out, mom and dad really like enforced education and, you know, long story short went to university, did my undergrad went, you know, in the, in the kind of early nineties, went out into the world of work.

[00:40:11] Hayley: And I remember like, after a couple of years, particularly working in the psychology team, my sister commented on that. So she's like, why are you talking like that? it was even affecting how I was talking, but I was in this team where everybody was chartered. They were younger than me.

[00:40:51] Hayley: And, and this is why the work that I did with a therapist just a few months before I went into local government, um, I had the option of going on the leadership program at the BBC and because I'd, I'd helped design part of that. And. Facilitating part of it. I was like, I'm not sure that's the best use of money.

[00:41:52] Ross: Well personally, thank you for being a role model to, to more people. And you might imagine you're a role model for [00:42:00] it's really, really appreciated from here.

[00:42:04] Ross: That's it, folks. Part one in the bag. Thanks so much to Haley for being so open and for being such a role model for us all in the workplace. Next time we'll continue our chat and jump right in to Haley's research.

[00:42:40] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:43:10] Hayley: And I'm kind of at that point. So yeah, this is me. That's why that song resonates. Can't give it to you. I'm giving it to you all on a plate. Aren't I,

[00:43:20] Ross: are

[00:43:22] Hayley: There are no secrets here.