Shownotes
Byron Burt is an aspiring G-League/NBA Coach who has worked for the Windy City Bulls in Game Day Operations since September of 2024. He previously served as the Head Boys’ Basketball Coach at St. Laurence High School in Chicago, Illinois. Byron also spent two seasons as the Head Coach at his alma mater, Stephen T. Mather High School before landing the job at St. Laurence. Before taking over the Mather program Burt worked at Beacon Academy in Chicago as the Head Boys’ Basketball Coach and Assistant Athletic Director from 2017 to 2018.
Burt has worked as a coach at the youth level since his playing days and currently helps to oversee Chicago Hoops, the AAU Program he started back in 2016.
On this episode Mike and Byron discuss the characteristics that make for a great NBA coach including the importance of building strong relationships with players, emphasizing that effective coaching transcends mere tactical knowledge. Byron shares that a successful coach must not only master the X's and O's but also cultivate a rapport that fosters trust and accountability among team members. Throughout the discussion, we delve into various coaching philosophies, highlighting the necessity of adaptability and the ability to motivate players, particularly in high-pressure situations. Ultimately, this episode underscores the intrinsic connection between coaching effectiveness and the human element inherent in the game of basketball played at the highest level.
Byron played college basketball at Loyola of Chicago for Coach Porter Moser.
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Website – https://www.upnextathletics.org/
Email – byronbrt13@yahoo.com
Twitter – @Burt3030
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Speaker A:The Hoop Heads podcast is brought to you by Head Start Basketball.
Speaker A:The sign of a great coach as well is getting the most out of your guys.
Speaker A:What can you pull out of those guys?
Speaker A:Put them in positions to compete.
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Speaker A:They're obviously believing in the process.
Speaker A:They're believing in a journey and I think it takes a great coach in order to get players to buy into that and believe in that.
Speaker B: operations since September of: Speaker B:He previously served as the head boys basketball coach at St. Lawrence High School in Chicago, Illinois.
Speaker B:Byron also spent two seasons as the head coach at his alma mater, Stephen T. Mather High School, before landing the job at St. Lawrence.
Speaker B: istant athletic director from: Speaker B: ogram that he started back in: Speaker B:Byron played his college basketball, Lola of Chicago for coach Porter Moser.
Speaker B:On this episode, Byron and I discuss what characteristics make for a great NBA coach.
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Speaker B:Take some notes while you listen to this episode as coach Byron Bird and I discuss what characteristics make for a great NBA coach.
Speaker B:Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads podcast.
Speaker B:It's Mike Cleansing here without my co host Jason Sunkel this morning.
Speaker B:But I am pleased to welcome back Byron Burt, aspiring NBA G League coach, guy who's been doing a lot of different things in the grassroots basketball space and a former high school coach.
Speaker B:We're going to jump on today to talk a little bit about what makes a good NBA coach.
Speaker B:Debate that back and forth, talk about some of the different characteristics, some of the experiences that Byron's had.
Speaker B:Byron, welcome to the Hoop Heads pod.
Speaker A:What's going on, Mike?
Speaker A:Appreciate you for having me on.
Speaker A:It's real good to be back.
Speaker A:So good to be back.
Speaker B:Absolutely excited to have you on for I believe this is time number three.
Speaker B:So you're getting up there towards the top of the rankings of most frequent guests.
Speaker B:So always good to have you on.
Speaker B:Always find a conversation to be interesting and enlightening and you've obviously had a lot of interesting experiences since we last talked that where you were trying to make your way into an opportunity to coach at the professional level.
Speaker B:So just kind of give us an update on where you're at, what you've been doing for the last couple, whatever, last couple months, and then we're going to dive right into our topic.
Speaker A:Yeah, man.
Speaker A:Still in the process of, you know, trying to get in, but, you know, still currently working with the Windy City Bulls.
Speaker A:So that's, it's been, it's still been.
Speaker A:It's been a real cool experience just going through everything, have an opportunity to go to other practices, you know, having opportunities to, you know, still go to summer league and, you know, talk with more different people.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that was, that's, that's been a pretty cool experience.
Speaker A:We also took our AAU program to Canada.
Speaker A:They actually got to go to Canada this summer.
Speaker A:That was my first time going to Canada as well.
Speaker A:So that was pretty cool.
Speaker A:And that's pretty much it, man.
Speaker A:I've just been doing a lot of other different things, traveling and checking out practices.
Speaker A:I'm still helping.
Speaker A:I'm helping out my friend who, who's the head coach at Oak Forest and in Illinois here, helping him out a little bit when I get time and helping out with his feeder kids and then helping out with his varsity kids.
Speaker A:So literally I'm like all over the place right now, but obviously still trying to, you know, get a, get a position, you know, in the NBA.
Speaker A:Reaching out to a lot of people.
Speaker A:It's crazy, too, that you.
Speaker A:You get a lot of responses from a lot of general managers in the NBA.
Speaker A:I get a lot of responses from vice presidents and.
Speaker A:And basketball operation people.
Speaker A:So it's good to just continue to keep getting out there.
Speaker B:I think that one of the things that I found through the podcast and people who have listened to me with heard it numerous times, but I'm always kind of amazed, again, just how willing and open people are at whatever level of basketball to at least connect with you.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And maybe they don't always have a job for you, but the fact that even somebody is going to take the time to respond when you're reaching out to them about potential open positions.
Speaker B:And, you know, we've all been in those spots in other industries where you send something out and you never hear anything back.
Speaker B:And I think in the basketball space, so often you hear about guys who just are.
Speaker B:Again, you're building those relationships, you're building those connections.
Speaker B:And, hey, maybe I don't have something right now, but I'll keep your ma.
Speaker B:I'll keep your name in the back of my mind.
Speaker B:And if I hear something that might be a fit for you, share that with somebody else.
Speaker B:And I just think that the basketball community is pretty unique in that way in terms of being supportive of guys who are chasing their dream and want to get involved in the game, because everybody ultimately loves the game and wants to see it improve.
Speaker B:And the way you do that is by.
Speaker B:By bringing everybody along with you.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's not just clawing your way to the top and leaving people behind in your dust.
Speaker B:It's sort of lifting up everybody together.
Speaker B:And I think that gets back to what we thought about in terms of a topic today, which is what makes for a good NBA coach.
Speaker B:And now you've had the opportunity to go and see a bunch of practices with different organizations, with different coaches.
Speaker B:So just give me your first impressions.
Speaker B:When you say what makes a great NBA coach, what are the first things that come to your mind?
Speaker B:And then we can kind of talk through some of those characteristics.
Speaker A:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:I think, for me, I think it's different, though.
Speaker A:You know, I think it's opinionated, for sure.
Speaker A:It's really about what you value kind of as a coach.
Speaker A:I look at it like when I first went into a couple of these practices, you know, for me, the relationship part was something that, like, I've always valued as a coach.
Speaker A:Like, I've.
Speaker A:I've always felt like that was.
Speaker A:That would be like the number one thing on the list that would describe what a, what makes.
Speaker A:It's so many things that go into being a great coach.
Speaker A:But for me that would be like the number one thing in there is, is how well are you able to deal with people, work with people?
Speaker A:I wouldn't even say deal.
Speaker A:How, how well are you able to work with people and just able to build that, that positive relationship with them to where you can coach them to the best of your ability, you can be honest with them, you can hold them accountable and also just, you know, giving the players an outlet, you know, to be able to feel comfortable enough to come talk to you.
Speaker A:I think that's great.
Speaker A:So, you know, just looking at a few of the NBA practices that I went to, that was the, something that I tried to, you know, goop out first was the, the, the coaches, this relationship with everybody.
Speaker A:You know, I recently got to go to Utah Jazz practice and you can see it immediately as soon as you walked in the building that Will Hardy values relationships.
Speaker A:He literally, I went there two days.
Speaker A:He literally walked up to everybody who was in the gym and he shook their hand and he introduced himselves.
Speaker A:He asked a quick conversation.
Speaker A:Um, obviously they were in practice, but like you can tell like his, the relationship part is so important to him and you can see it with his players.
Speaker A:Like he, he did an amazing job.
Speaker A:Like throughout the practices, just, you know, just talking to each player.
Speaker A:Like as they're stretching, you know, as they're warming up, as they're coming out of the weight room, he's having these small sided conversations with them.
Speaker A:And you know, I didn't get to hear all of them, but you know, some of them weren't even about basketball.
Speaker A:The ones that I did get to, you know, see his interaction with them, it's just about daily check ins about what's going on in life, you know, how things are going at home with the family, you know, and some of them are jokes, you know, I mean just this making the environment real light and you know that the practice there, you can tell that, you know, the players are, they love playing for them.
Speaker A:It was, it was exciting.
Speaker A:They relate to them well.
Speaker A:They were able to conversate, you know, back and forth when you know, if there needs to be an adjustment or something like that.
Speaker A:So when I look at great coaches, like that's the first thing I'm looking at.
Speaker A:Like, man, like can you build that relationship?
Speaker A:You know, I think that's important.
Speaker B:I do think is key for sure.
Speaker B:Yeah, I, I agree with You, I think the relationship piece is huge.
Speaker B:I think when you look at the way that the coaching profession has evolved over the last 20 years and you think back to, I guess the prototypical guy would be Bob Knight at Indiana, right?
Speaker B:Somebody who.
Speaker B:This is the way you're going to do it.
Speaker B:We're going to do it this way.
Speaker B:If you don't do it this way, I'm going to be very angry and upset with you.
Speaker B:You don't get to ask me why.
Speaker B:You don't get to question or challenge me or bring your own ideas.
Speaker B:It's just, this is the way things are going to be done and we're going to do it this way.
Speaker B:And not that there weren't relationships.
Speaker B:I know there are a lot of former players from Coach Knight who have built tremendous relationships with him, but certainly I think if you were to talk to Bob Knight during his heyday or even at the end of his career, he probably wouldn't have been someone that would have said the relationships were the number one thing.
Speaker B:Or when we think about Bobby Knight, we don't necessarily think about those relationships as being.
Speaker B:Being number one in terms of getting the most out of a player.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Today, I think you're 100% right, that those relationships are what allows someone to be able to coach.
Speaker B:And when I look at, at least again from the outside, I'm not sitting in on NBA practices the way you are, but from the outside perspective, what I always feel like when you talk about the great coaches, you read articles about them, you listen to them talk.
Speaker B:What it comes down to in the NBA so much is that relationship piece, then also translates to the ability to coach guys hard to get them to believe in what you're saying and to get guys to buy into a collective as opposed to an individual.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You think about the, the Phil Jackson method of like, hey, you got to get Michael Jordan to buy into trusting his teammates.
Speaker B:And once he does that, now all of a sudden he's buying in, and then you get to have team success.
Speaker B:You think about the same thing with Kobe and Shaq.
Speaker B:Even though those two guys didn't like each other, but Jackson was able to make it work and got guys to buy in.
Speaker B:And so I guess my question for you, and I'm just curious what your thought is, when I think about guys that have that ability to build relationships and then as a result of that get guys to buy in, how much of that do you think is just their natural personality, that guys just have that to some degree?
Speaker B:I almost feel like you have that or you don't, or maybe you have it on a different degrees on a scale.
Speaker B:Like, right, there's some guys that.
Speaker B:It's just come supernatural and easy, and those are the guys that take that and run.
Speaker B:And there's other guys who maybe have it, but they got to really work at it or be more conscious of it.
Speaker B:So I don't know how you think about it in terms of just.
Speaker B:I don't want to say it being a natural ability, but just, you know what I'm saying, that guys just seem to be able to do that well just right out of the gate.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think it's.
Speaker A:I definitely believe it's who you are.
Speaker A:Like, you know, I love, like, I love, like, listening to, like, you know, guys like Joe Missoula, like, they talk about it, you know, so much, just about, like, you're not.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:This is like the, the person you are is.
Speaker B:Is first.
Speaker A:Like, you know, we're not basketball coaches.
Speaker A:Like, we're.
Speaker A:We're human beings first.
Speaker A:And I think it.
Speaker A:That's what it's always going to boil down to.
Speaker A:It's like, who you are as a person.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:That is.
Speaker A:That's something that I think players can, you know, see and sense from the jump.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like, that's one thing that I've been learning just talking with you and a lot of NBA guys is that you can't fake this.
Speaker A:Like, they, like, they can see right through the bullshit.
Speaker A:It's no fake.
Speaker A:You can't, you know, you can't go in here and try to fake these conversations.
Speaker A:Like, it has to be genuine conversation.
Speaker A:And if you ain't got nothing to talk about, they just don't got nothing to talk about.
Speaker A:Like, it's just that simple.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:And that's okay.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:So, like, yeah, I do think it's something that, you know, you have as a person.
Speaker A:And, you know, I do.
Speaker A:I do think it's something that, you know, NBA general managers, when they're hiring coaches, that's part of the process.
Speaker A:When they have that conversation with you, like, can they sense that.
Speaker A:That genuine feel from you?
Speaker A:And not everybody, you know, has that, that, that, that.
Speaker A:That kind of.
Speaker A:That personality where, you know, they might, you know, the relationship part is important to them.
Speaker A:I think there's some coaches in NBA that's just like, you know, here's the I'm an X and O guy, and this is.
Speaker A:This is just X's and O's, but I just feel like it's hard to get your locker room to buy into the X's and O's when they're not bought into the person first, you know, and it's a little bit different too, when you go in NCA because it's a business at the end of the day, like, even though you don't like the person, you still have to get your job done because you're getting paid a lot of money, you know, I mean, so, and it's, and it's a business and we, and we have to operate and college is kind of turning into that a little bit as well and trickling down to high school.
Speaker A:But I, I, I still believe, like, it's got to be who you are, you know, I don't think you can fake that.
Speaker A:Like, it's just genuine.
Speaker B:I agree there.
Speaker B:I mean, I definitely think that you have to coach to your personality, right?
Speaker B:The, the personality of different guys in the league.
Speaker B:You can watch the way they conduct themselves on the sideline.
Speaker B:You can think about how they are in huddles.
Speaker B:You can see, again, if you get an opportunity to go into a practice, you see the different styles.
Speaker B:There's no one.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Correct style, right?
Speaker B:Because you have to be yourself, everybody.
Speaker B:One guy could be the, the quiet guy that's talking and he puts their arm around somebody and says, hey, this or that.
Speaker B:And then you can have the other guy who's a little bit more in your face and whatever.
Speaker B:But you have to be who you are.
Speaker B:And players really want, I think, my.
Speaker A:Bad, like to cut you.
Speaker A:I just wanted to say, I think the biggest thing too, like what you just said, I think you need to have a balance, though.
Speaker A:I think it needs to be, I don't think it's like you, you should be on, I mean, it's all different, but I don't think you need to be on, you know, the, the two ends of it.
Speaker A:I think if you can be right in the middle and have a great balance of, you know, being demanding and making sure players understand, like, hey, this is serious.
Speaker A:We have to get this done and we have to execute and be, and be on top of that.
Speaker A:But at the same time, you have to understand, like, mistakes are going to be made going through the process.
Speaker A:You have to be patient with players.
Speaker A:You have to be, you have to be patient with the process.
Speaker A:I think if you got that middle ground, it's going to really help you, you know, be successful in the long run.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I think that that's the key, I think, is finding that mental balance that what you just said.
Speaker B:That's another thing.
Speaker B:That's another thing, too, when it comes to understanding what your team needs or what an individual player needs in a moment, right?
Speaker B:And that goes back to relationships where I know a player, I know what drives them, because I've gotten to know them not just as a basketball player, but I've gotten to know them as a person.
Speaker B:And so when you have that, sometimes you know, hey, this guy needs a kick in the pants right now, and maybe this guy needs me to put it.
Speaker B:Put my arm around him.
Speaker B:And like you said, either way, the good coaches know how to demand accountability, right?
Speaker B:And get the guy to do what it is that they want him to do.
Speaker B:And that comes back to, for me, leadership.
Speaker B:And then I was thinking about what you said in terms of some guys, just X's and O's and we're doing this.
Speaker B:And maybe that relationship part, I don't know, isn't as important to him or maybe isn't as natural.
Speaker B:I think of it when you talk about NFL coaches, right?
Speaker B:And there's guys that have been great offensive or defensive coordinators, and those guys have the X's and O's on that side of the ball.
Speaker B:They've got that down.
Speaker B:And then they get promoted to head coach.
Speaker B:And they're not nearly as successful as a head coach, right?
Speaker B:Because for whatever reason, the leadership or the organization or the ability to manage the.
Speaker B:A bigger group of people isn't there.
Speaker B:And I think that when you talk about a coach at the NBA level, specifically talking about a head coach, right?
Speaker B:There's a lot of people that you have to manage.
Speaker B:You have to manage the players, you got to manage your staff, you got to manage the media.
Speaker B:Then you got to deal with the people above you in the organization, your GM and your president and all that stuff.
Speaker B:And so there's so many different hats that you have to wear as an NBA head coach that it feels like the skill set needed to be able to navigate all those things is one that you kind of have to grow into.
Speaker B:And you got to have some natural ability in some of those areas.
Speaker B:But I also think you have to grow into understanding what all those different pieces are that go into being a basketball coach.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, the one thing that I always talk to guys on here about is you think when you're becoming a basketball coach that it's just all about basketball.
Speaker B:And you very, very quickly realize that there is a lot more things to it than just dissecting film and, and coaching basketball.
Speaker B:There's so much of it is psychology and organizational management and all these kinds of things.
Speaker B:And so it's just very interesting to me when I think about, again, the difference between somebody who just is in the film room and has the ability to dissect X's and O's versus the guy who can then take that and translate it to his team and get his team to buy in and believe.
Speaker B:And I think that still goes back to what you talked about in terms of relationships.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean.
Speaker A:Cause if you think about it like everybody, especially in the NBA, NFL, it is kind of trending the same way in the NBA.
Speaker A:A lot of guys, a lot of teams are really doing the same stuff, X's and old stuff.
Speaker A:Everybody's kind of doing all of the same things.
Speaker A:I think the main thing is how can you get your locker room to respond and to be accountable and to be active and to be know, just present every single day.
Speaker A:Because it's also a very long season as well.
Speaker A:So I also think you have to be a, A, A great coach has to also be able to delegate.
Speaker A:That's one thing that I saw at the, at the Jazz practice recently was like, he did a.
Speaker A:Will, did a great job of like, empowering his assistants.
Speaker A:And that's something I truly believe in.
Speaker A:I truly believe, you know, you, you, you only as good, you're only going to be as great as your assistants are.
Speaker A:And that's something I wish I, you know, I'm learning and I wish I can go back when I was in high school, I would put so much more on my assistants because they are, they are vital.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like, delegating them to be responsible for certain parts of the game, being responsible for certain players, like, that's huge.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, it's a game changer too.
Speaker A:And it also gives another voice.
Speaker A:You know, a lot of times players, you know, they, they hear the head coach talk, you know, all, all preseason.
Speaker A:They hear him talking, you know, from the last season, and they hear him going into the beginning of the season.
Speaker A:It's like, you, you need some different voices just to bring some refreshments back to and back into the locker room.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I think that's important too, man.
Speaker A:It's just the coaches have to be able to delegate because at the end of the day, like, everybody's, everybody's running the same stuff.
Speaker A:Like, what can you do different in that locker room that's going to get the players excited about being there every day and joyful about that.
Speaker B:I think when it comes to assistant coaches, right, if you're doing a good job, talking what I just said a minute ago, in terms of responsibilities, hiring a great staff is part of your responsibility as a head coach.
Speaker B:And if you're hiring good people as your assistants, what makes them good is the knowledge that they can bring in whatever area.
Speaker B:And so if you then don't let them do the things that they theoretically bring to the table, then they're just kind of standing around not being very valuable.
Speaker B:And so it's just so much better when you can delegate.
Speaker B:And yet at the same time, like you said, it's not easy to do that, especially as a young coach, especially I always think about first time head coaches where, right.
Speaker B:You get that first job.
Speaker B:You've probably been thinking about what you're going to do when you finally get to take over your program for the first time.
Speaker B:Whether that be at the high school, college, NBA, whatever.
Speaker B:Everybody has ideas when you're an assistant coach of what you want your thing to look like and then you get that opportunity and now all of a sudden you're supposed to delegate out all this stuff like that.
Speaker B:That's really, really hard to do.
Speaker B:You have to be very self assured and confident that a, you're delegating to the right people and you're delegating the right things.
Speaker B:And I think with experience that becomes a lot easier.
Speaker B:It becomes easier to be the CEO of your program as opposed to being the micromanager of your team or your program.
Speaker B:But I do think when you talk about the NBA, the head coach, right, has to set that overall tone.
Speaker B:And the message of this is how we're going to do things.
Speaker B:And then yeah, you got to leave some of the detail and some of that work to your assistant coaches and be able to allow them to have the space, whether it's in the practice floor, whether it's on the practice floor, whether it's during games, whether it's talking to players in the off hours, whether it's through film, whatever it may be.
Speaker B:You got to be able to leave some room for those guys to have things that they can do and be responsible for a, to help your team and your program be better, but then also just for their own development, right?
Speaker B:Because I think one of the responsibilities, and it probably is maybe I, I, I think when, when you look at the NBA, you think about like the Greg Popovich tree, right, of coaches that have been part of his staff that were in San Antonio that have now gone on and found success in other places.
Speaker B:So you'd wonder, like, if you could have a conversation with Popovich, you wonder how much of his thought process every day was in developing those people for the opportunity that they were going to have next.
Speaker B:You wonder how much that was actually on his mind versus just, hey, I'm trying to maximize what we have here with the spurs and give all these guys the opportunity.
Speaker B:Be interesting to pick his brain and know what the balance was between those two.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think when it comes to, you know, Papa said, he's a whole different.
Speaker A:He's in a whole different category.
Speaker A:I think when you think of, like, the young coaches, when they're picking their staff, I think their focus has to be, like, fit.
Speaker A:It has to really.
Speaker A:You know, that's what the NBA is becoming anyway, in terms of players, coaches, Everything has to fit.
Speaker A:Now it's like, you can't.
Speaker A:If you're.
Speaker A:If you're a head coach, you just can't go hire, you know, someone that's been a head coach and they don't really fit with what you got going on.
Speaker A:It's becoming more about fit than just, you know, just the overall talent.
Speaker A:But when you're talking about somebody like Pop, though, you know, like, you know, I'm sure Pop, when he first got started, that was probably important thing for them.
Speaker A:He wanted to get guys around him that, you know, that.
Speaker A:That maybe can fill in some of the blanks that he was missing that could do some of the things that he was missing.
Speaker A:But as he started to get established, at any coach that gets established, it no longer becomes about fit.
Speaker A:It's about you coming in here.
Speaker A:We're going to.
Speaker A:We're going to put you to work, and you're going to become what we are.
Speaker A:Like, you're.
Speaker A:You're going to.
Speaker A:There is no.
Speaker A:Like, you're going to do what we tell you to get done, and it's just that simple.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:And it's pop.
Speaker A:So, you know, a new.
Speaker A:A new person coming in and pops telling you to do this, you go figure it out, you know?
Speaker A:I mean, you go get it done.
Speaker A:Ain't no.
Speaker A:It ain't no if.
Speaker A:Oh, man, this is not my fit.
Speaker A:It's like, no, I'm finna get this done.
Speaker A:So I think when you got somebody established like that, you know, that.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That the kind of fit stuff go out the window.
Speaker A:You kind of become what they are already, you know?
Speaker A:I mean, like, I think I like the.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:I think I like the Warriors.
Speaker A:Like, you Know, I think Steve Kerr's great too.
Speaker A:I think he does a good job of, you know, you know, resurrecting people, giving, giving coaches a new, another opportunity as well.
Speaker A:Especially a lot of head coaches that's been in college or in NBA.
Speaker A:He gives them a big time voice with that.
Speaker A:But I still believe that they still have a culture where this person's coming in and Steve Kerr knows that they fit well within this organization.
Speaker A:But I mean, Steve Kerr has a little bit of different coaching style, I believe, than Pop.
Speaker A:I think his, his team is more player led.
Speaker A:I also think Pops was too, but I think Pop had a little bit more of a, you know, the stomp on his foot.
Speaker A:So, I mean, yeah, like all those things I think is important, man.
Speaker A:And it's, it's other attributes too that go into, you know, being a great head coach.
Speaker A:You know, I was, we was kind of, I was told you I was kind of like talking with my friends about it.
Speaker A:We was kind of having a debate about it where it just can't be about the winning, but it has to be about the player development.
Speaker A:It has to be about, you know, the, the organization of it, you know, of how you're running your practices.
Speaker A:It has to do with being able to make adjustments mid game, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:And it just can't be just about winning, you know, just the regular season games, but obviously getting your team to the playoffs, making runs in the playoffs, you know, you know, figuring out different combinations where you can attack different people, different teams.
Speaker A:So all those things I think is, goes into being a great coach.
Speaker A:I don't think it's just one thing.
Speaker A:But if it's all about what you value, though, I think that's, that's the most important thing is about what is important to you.
Speaker B:Well, when you think about what somebody values, and you gave two examples there.
Speaker B:You think about Greg Popovich in San Antonio, right?
Speaker B:Who's the guy that from a playing standpoint is most associated with Pop?
Speaker B:Tim Duncan.
Speaker B:And then you go and you think Steve Kerr, right.
Speaker B:And who's most associated with Steve Kerr and the Warriors?
Speaker B:Steph Curry.
Speaker B:So those two guys, when you think about, and this goes back to what I said about Phil Jackson, right?
Speaker B:That your star player and your coach at the NBA level.
Speaker B:When you're talking about guys who have longevity, right, it can happen on a shorter stamp.
Speaker B:When you're talking about longevity, guys who have been together for 10 plus years, you could be pretty sure that that head coach and that star player are in lockstep in terms of what they want that culture to be, right?
Speaker B:You talked about in San Antonio, we're not bringing in guys who are bringing their own thing, right?
Speaker B:Once we're established, like you're, you're becoming us, we're not becoming you.
Speaker B:If you want to be here, you're going to fit into what we've built.
Speaker B:And part of it is that Tim Duncan was able to enforce that in San Antonio and Steph Curry has been able to enforce that in Golden State.
Speaker B:And I think when you look at the long term relationships, to me, that cohesiveness between the head coach and the star player is so important.
Speaker B:And you can think of examples where that went wrong.
Speaker B:And the star player and the coach no longer saw eye to eye about whatever strategy, organization, however you want to look at it.
Speaker B:And when that happens, quickly, that team fractures and chances are the player's not getting fired, the coach is going to be out of a job.
Speaker B:And so I think in the NBA especially, it's so important to be able to build that relationship with your franchise's best player.
Speaker B:And it goes back to the top of our conversation.
Speaker B:How do you do that?
Speaker B:You got to invest.
Speaker B:You got to invest in the.
Speaker B:You got to invest in the player first.
Speaker B:Get the player to understand that I care about you as more than a person, as more than a basketball player, I care about you as a person.
Speaker B:And then together we can go and build this.
Speaker B:And like I said, without.
Speaker B:It's so hard for, so hard to know, like is, how does that, does that naturally happen just because of the person Greg Popovich is or the person that Steve Kerr is?
Speaker B:How much do they have to work at making sure they're building those relationships?
Speaker B:It'd be interesting again to get inside their mind of how much of it is just.
Speaker B:I just know, I just know how to build these relationships.
Speaker B:It's not anything that I'm consciously going through and saying step one, step two, step three, or how much is it just them really being conscious and going through and working on it on a day to day basis?
Speaker B:Does it come natural or is it.
Speaker B:Or is it work for those guys?
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's the question I'd want to ask them.
Speaker B:Probably.
Speaker A:Yeah, I would think it would.
Speaker A:I would think it would be natural.
Speaker A:I would think that would be just something, you know, that just comes from a want standpoint, like just being around.
Speaker A:And that's what this game is about.
Speaker A:It's just about, you know, the people, you know, I mean, like there are some fantastic people out there and Just getting to know them and what they're about, you know, I mean, it's.
Speaker A:It's great, you know, I mean, you, you, you know, you built that love for that, you know, for that player, the person that they are, and that's what this is all about, man.
Speaker A:At the end of the day, it's like, it's.
Speaker A:It's got to be about, you know, people.
Speaker A:And I think with.
Speaker A:I think with.
Speaker A:Also a thing about being a great coach is understanding, like you just said it, understanding that, you know, you're a great coach, probably because you have a great player.
Speaker A:Like, you know, that, that, that.
Speaker A:That's important to understand that, like, the players, you know, are making a lot of the coaches, you know, better than what they seen, especially, you know, at the NBA level.
Speaker A:I think the more you can, you know, humble yourself as a coach and, and make it about, you know, the overall group and understand, like, you know, this is working because we have really good players.
Speaker A:You know, we have great people.
Speaker A:We have great players.
Speaker A:They're competitive, they're showing up every day.
Speaker A:They want to get better, they want to win, you know, and that's important to understand, too, in order to be a great coach, like, you got great players like, you don't mention, like Steve Kerr, I think, even said this about, like, you know, if he doesn't have Steph Curry, he doesn't.
Speaker A:He doesn't think that, like, his career goes the way it goes.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:So typically, when you see one, see.
Speaker A:See great coaches that win a lot of championships or that won championships, you always usually associate it with, you know, you know, really, really good basketball players.
Speaker A:So that's important to understand is like, you know, you're not bigger than a team.
Speaker A:You know, don't.
Speaker A:Don't think that as a coach, you're, you know, it's about you.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, we kind of seen how that goes a little bit with the.
Speaker A:With the.
Speaker A:Tom Brady and Bill Belichick.
Speaker A:I know me and my friends used to have that argument about Tom Brady and Bill Belichick.
Speaker A:Which one's more vital to the.
Speaker A:To the.
Speaker A:To the organization.
Speaker A:And then Tom Brady leaves and goes to Tampa and win.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And it doesn't go too well for Bill, but, you know, that doesn't mean that Bill's not a great coach for sure, but you need.
Speaker A:You need great players, you know, and that's some advice I got actually going into high school.
Speaker A:I actually got some advice going into.
Speaker A:When I first got my head coaching job, I went to Go meet with some other high school head coaches.
Speaker A:And I sat down in the, I sat down in the meeting with Gary DeCeser.
Speaker A:He, at the time he was the head coach at St. Rita.
Speaker A:And the first thing he told me was he said, I don't care how good of a coach you think you are, if you don't have any players and it don't, doesn't matter, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:And that stuck with me from, from a very long time.
Speaker A:It's like, yeah, you can, you could think you're a great coach, but you, you need some guys.
Speaker A:You need some guys.
Speaker B:There's no doubt that talent is really, really important.
Speaker B:And the more talent you have, the better coach you probably can become.
Speaker B:I, I think when it comes to that piece of it and understanding your spot in the success of a team, I think there's a balance there with the bet that the best coaches have between ego and humility, right?
Speaker B:You have to have enough of an ego to believe that you as a coach can make an impact and make a difference on your team, right?
Speaker B:We always see that when you bring somebody new into a program, whether it's at the professional level, college level, high school level, and a coach comes into a program that hasn't had success for a while and suddenly, boom, new coach comes in, new attitude changes things around, right?
Speaker B:You have to have an attitude and an ego and believe that when I take over this job that I'm going to be able to do it better than it was done previously, right?
Speaker B:You have to have that belief.
Speaker B:And yet at the same time, you have to have the humility to understand that if my three best players leave as free agents or my GM makes a terrible trade or whatever it is, and suddenly my talent level is lower, I have to be able to understand and expect that, look, there's some humility here that if I don't have the players, there's only so much I can do.
Speaker B:Like Will Hardy is honestly a great example of this, right?
Speaker B:Because I think his reputation around the NBA is extremely high.
Speaker B:I think most people who watch the league, I think most people who are in the league believe that Will Hardy is and going to be a tremendous coach.
Speaker B:And yet you look at his one loss record and you'd probably say this guy mean, come on, look at his, look at his one loss record.
Speaker B:But the honest truth is when you think about the organization, the talent that they've had, the plan that they're on, what they're trying to do, you have to temper expectations based upon the Talent level that you have, and especially at the professional level, where you are in the process of trying to build a championship team.
Speaker B:And so being a great coach for Will Hardy maybe doesn't look the same as it does for Joe Mazzulla the last couple of years when the Celtics are trying to win a title every year.
Speaker B:Will Hardy's goals, everybody's trying to win and maximize their team.
Speaker B:But maximizing the Boston Celtics for the last three or four years has been a lot different than maximizing the Utah Jazz for the last three or four years, if that makes any sense.
Speaker A:Yeah, no.
Speaker A:100%.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:I think when you look at his.
Speaker A:When you look at Will's team, it's.
Speaker A:The development was.
Speaker A:It was a.
Speaker A:Probably the biggest thing for him is developing the players, getting them better.
Speaker A:And you saw that.
Speaker A:And I think what the signs of a great coach as well is like.
Speaker A:Like getting the most out of your guys.
Speaker A:Like, you can, like, you can see the.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:He's gotten the most out of those players.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:He's put them in positions to compete.
Speaker A:They want to be there every day.
Speaker A:They show up.
Speaker A:You know, even when you're watching the games, like, throughout the whole season, like I was watching Utah, like last season, like, they're competing, like, throughout the entire season.
Speaker A:You know, I know they.
Speaker A:I don't know, I think they won like 17 games or something like that.
Speaker A:But, like, they.
Speaker A:If you watch them and you didn't see the records at the bottom, you wouldn't know what the records was.
Speaker A:Like, you couldn't tell.
Speaker A:And I think that's a sign of a great coach right there.
Speaker B:He's.
Speaker A:They're obviously believing in the process.
Speaker A:They're believing in a journey, and he's doing a great job of pulling that extra stuff out of them.
Speaker A:Like you.
Speaker A:I've watched Keonte George from, you know, his.
Speaker A:And watched his development, and he's a.
Speaker A:He's an amazing basketball player right now.
Speaker A:Like, his maturity level is up.
Speaker A:He's a great leader.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And that's credit to the organization and them, you know, developing that and building on that.
Speaker A:And I think it takes a great coach in order to, you know, get players to buy into that and believe in that.
Speaker A:And he has those guys playing really, really, really well.
Speaker A:So I think that's a.
Speaker A:That's another credit, man, just to.
Speaker A:To being a great coaches.
Speaker A:When you don't have that.
Speaker A:That talent, what can you pull out of those guys?
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:So just make sure guys are going out there every night to compete, at least.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Being able to develop players is huge.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Whether you're developing a guy who's the best player in the league or you're developing a guy who's the 15th man on your bench, if you're developing players individually, it's eventually going to help your team collectively as a group to achieve more.
Speaker B:So you have that.
Speaker B:And then I think the other piece that goes to it is our guy's going to play hard and compete for you and for the organization and for the team.
Speaker B:And we know that that doesn't always take place.
Speaker B:It's not always easy to do that, especially when your team isn't winning as many games as you'd like them to win.
Speaker B:So I think that ability to communicate and get the most out of your individual players and your team is definitely the sign of a good coach.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's definitely the sign that you're trying to be able to motivate your team.
Speaker B:You're trying to get them to be at the maximum of whatever their potential may be as close as that.
Speaker B:And like I said, every team's potential is different.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker B:The potential this year of the Denver Nuggets versus the potential of the Brooklyn Nets, two completely different things.
Speaker B:And yet David Adelman and Jordy Fernandez can both do tremendous coaching jobs within the confines of the rosters that they've been given.
Speaker B:And so at the professional level, it's a little bit different in with the rules and the way things are and the money and all.
Speaker B:All that stuff.
Speaker B:And at the college and high school level, there's obviously different situations depending on what kind of are you at a public high school or are you at a private high school?
Speaker B:In college, you can recruit the type of players that you want, but obviously with NIL and the transfer portal, it's just becoming more professionalized.
Speaker B:And college coaches are dealing with things that five, ten years ago they never would have imagined that they were going to be dealing with.
Speaker B:Thinking about a salary cap and how much money they have to spend on NIL and how that impacts who they can bring in on their roster and all those kinds of things.
Speaker B:And ultimately, what you hope happens is that the guys that are on your team, that you maximize what each individual guy can bring to the table and help them continue to improve.
Speaker B:And then can you build those individual players into a cohesive group that plays for one another?
Speaker B:And I know that's one of the things that the colleges are struggling with a little bit this year, or I should say just in the current era that professional teams have always had to deal with to some degree.
Speaker B:And that's just.
Speaker B:It's almost like it's a year to year, I'm building a team and then I got a whole new team the next year.
Speaker B:And the NBA turnover isn't quite that dramatic.
Speaker B:But clearly there's changes, whether it's a huge trade at the front end of your roster or just the guys at the back end of the roster turning over.
Speaker B:Every year you're trying to figure out and build that cohesiveness and build that connection.
Speaker B:And I think the best coaches build that and are quickly able to get everybody to buy in and be on the same page.
Speaker B:Because we all know, just like coaches, players have big egos too.
Speaker B:And so no matter what you say, you've got to get guys who are your best players to sublimate their ego for the betterment of your team.
Speaker B:And that's not always easy to do.
Speaker B:And again, circles back to what relationships.
Speaker B:You got to have a guy that believes in you so that I'm the best player on a team.
Speaker B:Why shouldn't I take 25 shots a game?
Speaker B:Why do I only need 19?
Speaker B:How's that going to help me?
Speaker B:How's that going to help our team be better?
Speaker B:And if you have a relationship and the player believes in you as a coach, that sales job becomes a lot easier than if you don't have that relationship and the guy doesn't believe you or buy into what you're selling.
Speaker B:I think I can't underestimate that in the NBA.
Speaker B:To me, that relationship between the coach and the star player and whether or not that star player buys into what the coach is doing, to me, that is so, so huge because the money in the NBA that players make is so big.
Speaker B:Not that the money that coaches make isn't big too, but it's certainly nothing compared to what the players make.
Speaker B:And so ultimately, if there's an ego battle between the coach and the player, unless you're a Greg Popovich and you've been in San Antonio For 20 years, you're probably, and even then you're probably going to lose that battle to the player eventually when we're talking about stars.
Speaker B:And so you got to figure out a way to coexist on the same page.
Speaker B:I just think the best coaches do that better than anybody.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, I know you, I know you talked about the college part with the relationships.
Speaker A:That's, that's becoming really hard just because, you know, the environment changes every year.
Speaker A:Like you're getting these different players in.
Speaker A:But I do still think you still got to try to, you know, you might got to speed the process up a little bit.
Speaker A:You might, you know, you might gotta, you know, have more open time in your office, you know, to allow players to come in so you can get to know them.
Speaker A:You might got to do some extra stuff outside of practice, you know, to, to enhance that in college.
Speaker A:But when I look at, you know, the, the NBA, you're, it's a, it's a really long season.
Speaker A:Like you're spending so much time with each other so that the opportunity to build that relationship in the league is there.
Speaker A:But at the same time, it does have to be something that you value and you got to want to do it.
Speaker A:Because I know you can sometimes get caught up in the mix of so many things going on and you might not really pay that much attention to it.
Speaker A:But I think that's what's probably going to separate you when you do get into that position and it's time to go to the playoffs and there's disagreements and things like that.
Speaker A:Because the relationship helps you, to be honest more.
Speaker A:It helps you to be straightforward with the, you know, with the individual.
Speaker A:And you know, when you're dealing with NBA players, these guys, these are adults, you know, they have families, they have kids.
Speaker A:It's man to man conversations, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:So, yeah, when you're able to have that relationship, you can really get through disagreements and really quickly.
Speaker A:Like, you can get through it.
Speaker A:You can have a conversation and you can get it fixed and you can move on very quickly.
Speaker A:As long as that respect level is there and there's no disrespect, you know, between each other, you can get through it pretty quickly.
Speaker A:I also think in college too is still.
Speaker A:I never want to take away like that, that build an experience as a, as a man in college.
Speaker A:I still think that's super important because you still got young guys, you know, that are 18 and 19 coming into, you know, to college and they still need, you know, building skills to become, you know, an adult.
Speaker A:And it's the same thing in NBA.
Speaker A:Like, look at, you know, some of these young guys that are one and done, you know, that's coming in, like they still need that, that type of guidance.
Speaker A:Like, and when I think about Will Hardy and I'm thinking like, how he still has ace, you know, who's, who's.
Speaker A:Who's a.
Speaker A:Who's a young guy who's still becoming a young man.
Speaker A:Like, you know, I feel like you, you know, as A head.
Speaker A:As a head coach, it's your job to help, you know, continue to mold this, this person, you know, into a, into a great human being.
Speaker A:That's part of your role, you know, when you're dealing with those younger guys like that.
Speaker A:So the relationship part could be a little bit different depending on your roster as well.
Speaker A:He also has Kevin Love on his roster as well.
Speaker A:And it's like, so it's like.
Speaker A:But you also have the players too that can help with the younger guys.
Speaker A:And I think it's just a great, I said like, it's just a great fit now, now you have older guys who are helping mold these younger guys.
Speaker A:And on top of that, you have a coach who's helping molding these, mold the younger guys.
Speaker A:And it's just a great fitness.
Speaker A:It's a, I think it's, it's great to be in that situation like that.
Speaker B:I think ultimately, whatever level that you coach at, you are still using basketball to impact people.
Speaker B:And obviously the impact that you're having as a high school coach, a college coach, an NBA coach, is different because the people that you're coaching are at different stages of their life.
Speaker B:But I think the best people, when it comes to head coaches and assistant coaches, the best people are still using the game to impact the people around them, no matter what level that they're coaching at.
Speaker B:And you think about guys that have been retired, guys who have relationships with their former players, and ultimately that the reason why they have relationships with their former players after they're done coaching them is not because of how great they were at X's and O's or in game adjustments or player development.
Speaker B:It's because of the relationships that they had with them.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:You can take that and think about teachers, right?
Speaker B:Teachers that have an impact on people.
Speaker B: ate verbs or about the War of: Speaker B:The ones that we remember are the ones that we connected with and had a relationship with.
Speaker B:We don't necessarily remember all the content stuff that they taught us.
Speaker B:And I think basketball coaching is the same way.
Speaker B:Obviously the day to day piece of knowing the X's and O's and being able to develop players and put the right offensive and defensive schemes together to help you win games is obviously important.
Speaker B:And the higher level you go, the more important those things become in terms of your own job security and ability to continue to do what you do.
Speaker B:And yet at the same time, I still feel like even at the highest level, guys are still impacting not just the basketball, but coaches are also impacting their players as human beings and as people just based on the type of environment that they created.
Speaker B:Like you describing Will Hardy walking around and talking to everybody at a Jazz practice, that sets a tone, right?
Speaker B:That shows and demonstrates something that whether or not it's an explicit lesson of hey, you should be able to talk to people and, and be welcoming and all those things, whether or not that's something that's explicitly talked about or it's just something that everybody in the organization sees and feels every day.
Speaker B:And then there's a trickle down and that has an impact on people.
Speaker B:And so I just think that by utilizing the game to, to teach more than basketball, I think that's an important part of coaching at every level.
Speaker B:And again, sometimes it's done specifically, like here's the lesson that I'm trying to teach you about life.
Speaker B:Sometimes it's just the way I go about my business that you see and learn from just what you're seeing every day.
Speaker B:You learn from watching what your head coach does and how they interact and the way they go about their business.
Speaker B:And there's lessons to be learned there.
Speaker B:So I think all that stuff is, is hugely important.
Speaker B:I want to ask you about something that's.
Speaker B:I don't veering away slightly from the people relationship side of it because when I think about NBA coaches, one of the things that oftentimes causes NBA coaches to lose their job, and you mentioned it very early in our conversation today, was the ability to make in game adjustments, right?
Speaker B:I think about last year, right?
Speaker B:Tom Thibodeau, people saying, oh, he's stubborn in the way that he uses his bench.
Speaker B:He doesn't, he, he's not creative offensively.
Speaker B:And so as a result, the guy who wins and wins and wins and wins but never won an NBA title with the Knicks, suddenly he's out of a job and replaced by Mike Brown, who's going to come in and maybe be more dynamic with his offense and change things around.
Speaker B:Or I think back to Mike Budenholzer.
Speaker B: won their NBA championship in: Speaker B:So when you think about in game adjustments, how important do you think that is as an NBA coach?
Speaker B:Because I feel like that's something that is publicly on display.
Speaker B:Even though the average fan may not understand what adjustments should be made.
Speaker B:So often they hear commentators, writers, experts saying, this guy just doesn't make adjustments and that's why a guy ends up losing his job.
Speaker B:So when you think about that in game adjustment piece, what are your thoughts in terms of how important that is to being a great coach?
Speaker A:Yeah, first think you got to think about what's hurting you.
Speaker A:Like when you, when you, when you, you know, when you go into that when you're watching the game or you go into halftime and you just got to look at.
Speaker A:Because it's going to be, there's going to be so many different aspects of the game that's kind of affecting, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the outcome of it.
Speaker A:So you have to really look at like, what's really hurting us.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:So like I was just watching the, you know, the, the Denver Nuggets in the, in the warriors game, and you saw in the first half that, you know, they were, it was hurting them getting the switches onto.
Speaker A:When they were switching y on to Steph Curry, like that was just it, it was hurting them.
Speaker A:It was getting them in pick and roll situations, it was putting them at a disadvantage on defense.
Speaker A:They were filing, they were opening up easy buckets for them when it was, when it was Murray and Jokic in the pick and roll situation and they put Draymond and Steph in there.
Speaker A:So like, you got to look what's, what's really impacting the game.
Speaker A:And they came back second half and they started pre switching it already.
Speaker A:So like they started making sure that they had a tag guy right behind Steph.
Speaker A:That way when Steph gets switched on to the role guy coming and can go get right to Jokic, and now they got a matchup that they like.
Speaker A:So like, those type of adjustments I think are important because you stop the bleeding like where it's really hurting you at.
Speaker A:And I think when you're getting killed and pick and roll situations because you're getting cross matched, you can figure out a way to, to get the, to, to dictate the matchups like that.
Speaker A:Those are great adjustments.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Sometimes I think, I think, you know, when we look into the media or you, you know, you read what people are writing online, everybody kind of has their own opinion.
Speaker A:You know, it's kind of about tibs and things like that.
Speaker A:I also think a lot of guys that have been in this a long time, somebody like Tibbs, if it's been, if it's you know, if it's working for you, I think they kind of like just stick with it, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:And they kind of just ride it out.
Speaker A:And you watch the game and it's not like.
Speaker A:Like when you watch the Knicks play, it wasn't like they were getting.
Speaker A:Like they were getting killed.
Speaker A:No, it was like it comes down to, you know, a couple possessions at the end of the game, and it's like, you know, how many.
Speaker A:How many adjustments, you know, was probably really could have been made.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, it came down to, you know, a few possessions at the end of the game, and it's just, you know, just trying to execute within those three or four, you know, three or four minutes and, you know, be solid on that end right there.
Speaker A:But I think when you're making adjustments, it's important to have a curveball, you know, I mean, just try to always keep a curveball in your back pocket and rather that, you know, that's on defense, on offense, and just try to, you know, steal a couple possessions here and there.
Speaker A:But at the, at the end, it comes down to the execution, though.
Speaker A:A lot of the, you know, a lot of the games in NBA comes down to execution at the end of the game.
Speaker A:It's a few possessions, so you really got to lock in right then and there.
Speaker A:But I think the adjustment part is important.
Speaker A:I think it's different for every coach.
Speaker A:I think it's different for every game.
Speaker A:Every game is different.
Speaker A:And you just got to be, you know, you got to be.
Speaker A:You got to really see where you're getting hurt at and, you know, go from there.
Speaker B:Margin for error in the NBA, especially when you get to the highest level of the playoffs, is very, very thin.
Speaker B:And I think part of what being a great coach in terms of making in game adjustments is that you have to put the prep in before the game starts, right?
Speaker B:To try to work through and think about and be creative in terms of, hey, what could happen in this game and be.
Speaker B:Be antic.
Speaker B:What maybe another team could throw at you.
Speaker B:And obviously there's always things that could come at you that you're not prepared for.
Speaker B:And so you got to think on the fly.
Speaker B:I do think that with the size of NBA staffs today, right, the number of assistant coaches that you have, and obviously guys are spending a lot of time putting in work, trying to figure out, hey, what do we need to do offensively to attack this team?
Speaker B:What do we need to do defensively to stop this team?
Speaker B:And in the playoffs, when you're playing a seven game series and you're not flying from city to city and playing a different team every night.
Speaker B:When you get to look at the same team and dial in on them for seven games, obviously you're going to have a better feel for both what you need to do offensively and defensively against that particular team.
Speaker B:And so I think a lot of in game adjustments to me would seem to be found in the prep that you do for each game, for each series.
Speaker B:Looking at the film of what a team just did to you in the previous game and hey, how can we adjust to that?
Speaker B:And then if we adjust this way, what might they do coming back?
Speaker B:And so you do have that chess match and it's, it's interesting again to me when you just think about whether or not those in game adjustments, as you said, three or four possessions.
Speaker B:Is it the coach, is it the players execution in a given moment?
Speaker B:Coach is always an easy scapegoat, right for, for player execution and whatever.
Speaker B:And it's, the coaching profession is such a difficult one because you just have so many different factors that go into your success.
Speaker B:And ultimately we talked about it a minute ago, you don't have talent, your players don't execute.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker B:I think it ultimately comes back on you, but man, it's tough.
Speaker A:I also think too like you know, small adjustments that, that feel like can be made through, through games.
Speaker A:Like, like you said with the execution part, like just more focus on that.
Speaker A:I think we, when we think, I think when, you know, when, when we hear adjustments, I think like we, we overthink it so much.
Speaker A:Like we try to go into this mindset of like, you know, so technical of like oh, we have to, you know, change something that's, that we've been doing for a long time.
Speaker A:But most of the time the adjustments are like, let's focus in on executing this specific action.
Speaker A:Let's execute on this defensive end.
Speaker A:Let's adjust to being more physical.
Speaker A:Let's play, let's be a little bit more physical this half, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Let's, you know, let's, let's make, let's execute.
Speaker A:Let's execute and running the floor a little bit harder, you know, on the offensive end, you know, trying to like execute, getting to your space and you know, so all of those are like really small adjustments that I feel like, you know, sometimes you just got to give reminders and huddles and just like, you know, you know, just remind them like hey, we gotta be A little more physical.
Speaker A:Like, we're not physical enough on this on the defensive end.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:We're let.
Speaker A:We're allowing them to get to their spots, and those are adjustments that can change the whole outcome of the, you know, of the game.
Speaker A:And at the end of a game, it could be huge, you know, just by being physical on one or two plays down the stretch in defense and being on point and being in position is huge.
Speaker A:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker A:So, like, you know, I think.
Speaker A:I think a lot of times people try to make the, you know, sometimes I think a lot lineup adjustments are important too.
Speaker A:Like, hey, like, who do they have on the floor, who we have on the floor?
Speaker A:Those things are important.
Speaker A:But sometimes I think people over, you know, overthink the adjustments, and they make it like, you know, like these.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker A:They have to be these, like, enormous changes.
Speaker A:It's like sometimes it's just some small tweaks that you got to do or just emphasize and focus on.
Speaker B:So I've always been a believer in do what you do, especially I think, at the high school and even the college level that be really, really good at what we do.
Speaker B:And the more we worry about what the other team's going to do.
Speaker B:And again, not to say that we're obviously not scouting teams or being prepared and all the things that go into that, but I think you make a great point there, that sometimes we just have to execute the things that we're supposed to do.
Speaker B:If we can add 5% to just cut 5% harder or play a little bit more physical or just be a little bit crisper with this cut or have the timing be better that all of a sudden what looked like it might have need to be a.
Speaker B:Might have needed to be a major adjustment suddenly goes away just because we execute the things that we're doing at a higher level.
Speaker B:And that goes back to, as a coach, being able to recognize what's missing from what your team and understanding what you're trying to execute, how you're trying to execute it, and then being able to figure out the why behind why it's not working right.
Speaker B:And sometimes it could be just as simple as what we just talked about.
Speaker B:Hey, you got to cut a little bit harder.
Speaker B:Hey, we've got to execute this just a little bit crisper.
Speaker B:Hey, you got to get a better angle on this screen versus we got to take some big, huge scheme adjustment to change everything in order for it to work.
Speaker B:And it's a fine line there.
Speaker B:And as we said, the margin for error, especially when you get to the highest level of the NBA and you're talking about a seven game series, the margins between teams and one or two plays, swings, everything.
Speaker B:And how much of it is just this adjustment or that adjustment versus sometimes it's just the, the bounce of the ball.
Speaker B:The key is you have to put your team in position to be able to be successful.
Speaker B:And the way you do that is through preparation and knowledge and relationships.
Speaker B:So the guys buy into whatever it is.
Speaker B:You got to be able to share the knowledge and they got to buy into what you're doing.
Speaker B:And if you, if you have those things, I think the rest of it, through hard work and just energy and effort, can, can take care of a lot of the, the potential issues that you may have as a head coach.
Speaker A:Yeah, no.
Speaker A:100%.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think, yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot that goes into it.
Speaker A:I think just having all, just trying to, you know, balance it all out as much as possible, that can help.
Speaker A:But it's not a, it's not a, it's not an easy job.
Speaker A:I think it's, it's, it's very rewarding though, individually though, but you know, as a person.
Speaker A:It's rewarding, but it's definitely not an easy job.
Speaker A:And it's, it's not a, it's not a lot of praise in it.
Speaker A:I think when things are going well, you know, I think so.
Speaker A:I think personally coaches get a lot too much blame when things go bad, but I also think they get too much credit when things are going well.
Speaker A:And that's why I feel like as a coach, you really just kind of got to stay, you know, even keel.
Speaker A:But when you get to, for me, when you get to take this, like, break away from coaching and like, I would advise that to any coaches that are like, I hear so many stories about coaches struggling, you know, mentally going through a season or at the end of a season or even a, you know, stretch of their career where, you know, they feel like they question if they want to do it.
Speaker A:I would advise, you know, if you could take a break from coaching, like when it's, when it's really, you know, daunting on you mentally and you really feel like you can't handle it.
Speaker A:If you take a break, you're able to like, really look at it from a different lens and then you can go back into it and you can, you'll be, you'll be ready to kill it.
Speaker A:Like right now I'M in the mindset of, like, I'm looking at so many different things differently.
Speaker A:Like, oh, man, I was in this situation, I would, I can do this so much differently now.
Speaker A:If I, if I can go back or if I ever end up in that situation, it's just putting yourself in a position to learn a little bit more.
Speaker A:And then just because you take a break doesn't mean you can, you know, you can't go back.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:And I'm sure a lot of coaches in NBA, when they lose their job, they, you know, those little year breaks they, they, they, they take, they can, you know, find, you know, get back to themselves.
Speaker A:Some can jump in.
Speaker A:As an assistant coach, you can learn a lot.
Speaker A:You know, being an assistant coach, I'm learning, like, right now, I'm learning so much as an assistant.
Speaker A:I've never been an assistant before.
Speaker A:As a coach.
Speaker A:I've been coaching since I was 16, and I've never been an assistant.
Speaker A:So, like, I'm learning, you know, so much.
Speaker A:But it helps because I've been a head coach, so I know exactly what assistance should look like because I've been that head coach.
Speaker A:And it's like, man, this is what I need from these assistants right now in order to, you know, make this program and make our team, you know, great and what it needs to be.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But just being an assistant, you're learning and you're figuring out ways and, you know, the experience of being a head coach kind of helps with that as well, being an assistant.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I think sometimes people don't realize, like, taking that break is, Is so good for you, can learn so much, get to talk to different people, and it just gives you a whole different perspective.
Speaker A:So that's been my, My, my deal these, this, this past, like, year and a half, is that, like, man, it's been, it's been.
Speaker A:I've been telling my friends, like, this has probably been the best year and a half that I've had.
Speaker A:And you usually don't say that after you, you know, leave a job, you know, I mean, so, like, it's been great, and you just learn it so much, and that's what it's about.
Speaker B:I think one related to that point.
Speaker B:The grind is real during the season.
Speaker B:I don't care what level you're coaching at.
Speaker B:It's all consuming you.
Speaker B:You, you eat, sleep, drink, all of it all the time.
Speaker B:Your, Your team in.
Speaker B:How you can help them be better is constantly on your mind.
Speaker B:There's, there's no question about that.
Speaker B:And so I think when you do take a break, whether it's because you're between jobs or whether you just allow yourself 15 minutes, you know, to take a deep breath and to step back, I think is.
Speaker B:Val is valuable.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:And that's also when you have an opportunity, like you talking about being assistant and being able to learn.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I think the very best coaches in the profession, at whatever level, are constantly looking for ways to learn.
Speaker B:Sometimes that's as simple as you learn from somebody who's on your staff, who's an assistant, that brings something to the table, some experience that maybe you don't have, or just a different experience.
Speaker B:I think you learn by talking to your peers.
Speaker B:I think you learn if you're a smart coach, you learn from players.
Speaker B:You learn from going in the film room and not just watching your team and not just watching your upcoming opponent, but you're watching if you're an NBA coach.
Speaker B:I know so many guys that are watching European stuff to get an idea of what.
Speaker B:What might be going on in other places and the innovations that you see.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I do think that that growth mindset is something that is really important no matter what kind of coach you're talking about, again, at any level.
Speaker B:But you're trying to learn and grow and.
Speaker B:And add to your.
Speaker B:Add to your bag.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:And so it's just an ongoing process.
Speaker B:I don't think you're ever finished or done as a product, as a.
Speaker B:As a coach.
Speaker B:And the best guys, again, do all the things that we've been talking about.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:They know how to build relationships.
Speaker B:They understand the X's and O's.
Speaker B:They're not static.
Speaker B:They're always trying to grow and improve and get better.
Speaker B:And I think to me, at the NBA level, it does begin and end with what we talked about at the start of the pod.
Speaker B:It begins and ends with the relationships.
Speaker B:And I think, if I had to point out the one thing that I think is the most important characteristic of being an NBA coach, it's your ability to relate to and connect to your players, specifically your star players, your best players, the guys who are making $50 million a year, that they have to believe in you, that you're leading them in a direction that's going to help them to reach their goals, both individually and as a team.
Speaker B:And if you have that, then, like you talked about, a lot of teams are running the same stuff and not that innovation on the X's and O's and understanding all that.
Speaker B:I feel like that's something that you can continue to learn and grow and whatever.
Speaker B:I. I think the.
Speaker B:I don't know if the soft skills is the right way to say it, but just the ability to connect and the ability to lead are two things that I think are the most important part of being an NBA head coach.
Speaker B:And then the basketball side of it.
Speaker B:Obviously, if you're coaching at the NBA level, you have a great understanding of the game of basketball, but to me, the basketball side of it is almost.
Speaker B:Almost secondary.
Speaker B:If you don't have the ability to lead and connect with people, I don't care how much X's and O's, you know, you're not going to be successful.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's hard, you know, and I mean, everybody.
Speaker A:I think we all think that, you know, and like I said, that's why I really believe it's.
Speaker A:It's a.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's about what you value.
Speaker A:I think you have to be who you are.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:If you value that, then you have to.
Speaker A:You have to ride with that.
Speaker A:But again, some coaches will probably disagree with me and say, no, it's not relationships.
Speaker A:They'll probably say, you know, something else.
Speaker A:And, you know, you have to do what works for you, you know, and that's that.
Speaker A:That's the.
Speaker A:You have to do what works for you, and you have to, you know, hope that it fits with the team that you're working with and it's what the guys need.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:All right, I think we hit that question pretty hard.
Speaker B:What's next for you, Byron?
Speaker B:What's the plan here over the next year or so?
Speaker A:Yeah, man, it's going to continue to keep trying to, you know, get.
Speaker A:Get it, get it.
Speaker A:Get a position in the.
Speaker A:In the league some.
Speaker A:Somehow.
Speaker A:Some way.
Speaker A:But at the same time, man, just continue to keep traveling and talking with different people, doing podcasts like this, talking with GMs, you know, player personnel, people, coaches, players.
Speaker A:It's literally just exploring.
Speaker A:And like I said, just keep learning.
Speaker A:I think Rick Patino said it best, like, once he stopped, once you're.
Speaker A:Once you're done, feel like you know everything and you're done learning, and that's when you should be done coaching.
Speaker A:And I think that's.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's so real, like, when I feel like I'm.
Speaker A:I have no interest in learning anything anymore, anything else, probably gonna just, you know, just be done with it and, you know, and focus on something different.
Speaker A:But right now, I'm more open than ever than learning.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're gonna keep trying.
Speaker A:We're gonna, gonna do some, we're gonna still do some things with the high school, with, with working with some players.
Speaker A:I'm still going to be in the G league, so yeah, I'm gonna have my hand put on a lot of different things.
Speaker A:I'm still doing, still doing, coaching, coaching youth kids now, you know, you know, and just, you know, just being a basketball junkie and just being around it all day, man, that's, that's, that's, it's life.
Speaker A:This is really life.
Speaker A:It's all, it's all we do.
Speaker B:So there we go.
Speaker B:There's nothing better.
Speaker B:All right, before we get out, share how people can get in touch with you.
Speaker B:Give me your email.
Speaker B:Social media, just so people can reach out to you after they listen.
Speaker A:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:I've been, I've actually been doing a lot of stuff on social media.
Speaker A:I've been trying to, you know, do a lot of breakdowns defensively.
Speaker A:That's been something I just been intrigued by and just wanted to do more of it.
Speaker A:I actually really love breaking down the filming, watching defensive coverages and, and effort, and effort guys and what they're doing.
Speaker A:So you can follow me on Twitter.
Speaker A:It's Bert 30 30.
Speaker A:That's my Twitter and my Instagram, my email.
Speaker A:People want to reach out to me.
Speaker A:It's Byron B Y R O n b r t 13 yahoo.com and I'm always open to talk talk ball with anybody and it's.
Speaker A:I've had some people reach out to me after doing this podcast and so always great to be on here Mike.
Speaker A:I appreciate you guys for having me.
Speaker A:I always love talking hoops with you guys.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Great to have you on again today, Byron.
Speaker B:Fun to talk about what makes a great NBA coach.
Speaker B:Really appreciate your time and to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.
Speaker B:Thanks.
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