Shownotes
Transcripts
What is happening, everybody? I'm Larry Roberts.
Sara Lohse [:And I'm Sara Lohse. And this is Branded, your comprehensive guide to creative branding.
Larry Roberts [:And on this already hilarious episode of the podcast, we've got an amazing guest with us today. Sonny Dublik is a taco enthusiast. And as soon as Karen and I saw that, we were like, the conversation is, we're talking tacos on this episode of the podcast. So, Sunny, welcome to Brandy.
Sunny Dublick [:Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
Sara Lohse [:We're excited to have you. For the record, Sunny is also an award winning marketing strategist and founder of the Sunny Dublic marketing agency. But yes, more importantly, we all love tacos and Batman.
Sunny Dublick [:Exactly. So many synchronicities already.
Larry Roberts [:So we, we use a platform called podmatch to find potential guests for the show. And when we came across your profile, I think it was suggested as a potential match. But when we got to digging into your profile, one of your suggested topics there was why your marketing sucks. And, man, we just loved it. I relate to it so much because, man, you know, I've been playing this, this, this side hustle slash entrepreneur game finally. It's, I was a real entrepreneur three years ago, but I had the side hustle thing going for seven years prior to that. And I went through so many brands and so many marketing attempts and trying to establish myself as a brand. And in all honesty, each and every one of them sucked for different ways or different reasons.
Larry Roberts [:So tell us, Sunny, why do most people's marketing suck?
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. I mean, I'm so brutal. I'm originally from New Jersey, so I'm just going to tell it like it is, right? But honestly, a lot of what I do is consulting, and that's what people are paying me for is essentially to tell them, is it bad? Is it good? I think the first question I always really love to ask is, like, is this a brand that you yourself are proud of? And I think even with personal brands, it's so interesting. A lot of people tap a marketing agency and they're like, this person is going to do this for me. They're going to make it cool, right? They're going to make it all of these exciting things. And it usually doesn't happen that way. You're not even bought into it at that point, right, because someone else is handling it. But I find this all the time, like, I call it the sea of sameness of what I think marketing is right now.
Sunny Dublick [:And it's, everyone is just in this super crowded, like, area being like, let's do more of this. Let's do more of this. And none of it's cool, none of it's fun, none of it's exciting, none of it would work on you. Like, my ultimate beta test is, like, you're trying all of these things. Would you say yes to them? Right? Like, I can't tell you how many people come to me and they're like, well, I just need more ads or I just need more emails. I'm like, don't you think people are tired of that? Like, I am a firm believer that marketing is not supposed to be screaming into the void, like, buy this, buy this, buy this, and just hoping people come into it. It's like, I think I joke. It's like we're running after customers with a flaming piece of paper.
Sunny Dublick [:Like, by now, instead of attracting business, which is what happens when you have a cool brand and a cool business. And I was listening to. It's so funny. I went down this rabbit hole with your whole, like, liberty episode. But I. But what's funny is, like, you got. I mean, you guys were hitting the nail on the head just talking about, like, being more yourself. Like, I can't tell you personally how much.
Sunny Dublick [:Like, at first. Like, I'm so weird in so many ways. Like, we all are, right? And all of the kind of corporate speak and everything, like, that feels. It's the life that I live at work, right? But, like, at home, I'm, like, an anime weirdo, and I love to, like, paint and draw, and I'm obsessed with australian shepherds. And, like, I make goo goo voices at dogs. Like, I'm a weird person.
Sara Lohse [:Can we be friends?
Sunny Dublick [:Yes.
Larry Roberts [:Same thing. It's so crazy because I love to draw and paint and create as well. I mean, and we've. We've mentioned this on the podcast.
Sara Lohse [:I have an australian shepherd mix.
Sunny Dublick [:Do you, uh. We need to talk all about them.
Larry Roberts [:I've got a brand new cat. If you can see the back of my hand there. It was astray, and now she's my cat. It's a crazy thing, but the cat.
Sara Lohse [:Distribution system found him.
Larry Roberts [:Even going all the way back to high school, I was an art nerd. My high school class ring. Yeah, there you go. My high school class, where you gotta swipe it sometimes to get it to go back into focus. I'm with you, but even my high school class ring has art on one side.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Larry Roberts [:In that creative, nerdy kind of guy my entire life. But I've also made the mistake of trying to, instead of embracing that uniqueness and that nerdiness, I try to counter it by doing what I think everybody else thinks is cool.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. Yes. I mean, when I first started, I can't tell you how, like, boring and generic everything was because I was like, well, this is what people want to hear. And then as time went on, I was like, you know what? Like, I'm a marketer. We're one in however many million right now, even just in the United States. Like, you could throw a, like, you know, hit a more like ten marketers in the process. And I think what I realize is, like, I'm not really being who I am, right? Like, I'm being what I think everybody thinks I need to be, right. And I think when I started leaning into that, it's so funny.
Sunny Dublick [:The people that have come to me and they're like, I love your branding. I love your website. I love the way you talk about marketing and yourself. And, like, you know, my tagline is like, I believe in a no bullshit approach to marketing. And, like, I thought that was going to isolate so many people, and it was actually the opposite. A ton of people came to me and they were like, I love that you're so honest and real about what's going on. So I think, like, the question of does, how do I know if my marketing sucks? It's like, does it feel good? Like, when you're looking at the things that are being posted, if you're not posting themselves, like, does it feel right to you? Do you feel excited about it? Like, I have a post going up on LinkedIn later this month that is so weird. Like, I did an eras tour poster of my different photo shoots over the years.
Sunny Dublick [:I'm like, this is so cringey and strange, but it's me. Like, I am that I'm like, I'm excited about this. So I think that's part one and then the second part of it. Like, I always joke, you know, you can have the best business in the world, but if you don't have customers, you have a hobby, right? So, like, it needs to also resonate with the people that you want to talk to. And does it, like, I think so many people are like, well, I can't tell if my marketing's working. And I'm like, well, you can, though. Are you getting people that say that they see it? Are you getting returns? Like, there's literally every tool underneath the sun to measure that. So you know if it's working and hitting them or not right in the right way, you know, if you feel good about it.
Sunny Dublick [:And if you don't just open up the conversation and ask them, it's so.
Sara Lohse [:Something that we miss.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. It's the weirdest line of people being afraid to ask their customers what they think and not in, like, the creepy. Here's another survey. Give me a five star review. You know, just having a conversation with another person.
Larry Roberts [:I just figure if they're paying their invoices that they love it. They're doing all right. Cool. They're giving me money. I must be doing something right.
Sunny Dublick [:Exactly. But I think that it's such a missed opportunity. And one of the things, like, I'm really heavy into marketing research and in particular, customer interviews. So when I start working with a client, one of my first things is, can I talk to your customers? And it's so funny, the things that they tell me. They're like, well, customers love this, and they buy from me because of this. And then I talk to the customers, like, we don't give a crap about that. Yeah, we like x, y, and z, and we went to them because of this. And by the way, they're missing the mark on this.
Sunny Dublick [:And it's usually this completely transformational, like, experience. When I do that presentation, it's so fun for me because it's literally taking, like, the wool off your eyes of what you think versus what we know. And all it is is talking to people. I'm not doing anything crazy. I'm literally just getting in front of someone and asking them questions.
Sara Lohse [:A trust is a huge part of that, too. And I know it's like, it's 87 or something percent of executives think that their customers trust them, but the actual number is, like, 27%. It's so different. And they're not focusing on the reasons why they should be trusted. They're just focusing on sales.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:And it's never going to help.
Sunny Dublick [:Yes. One of my clients, it's so funny. So they work in the tech space, and they do. I mean, they're amazing, but they, they told me all of the crazy, cool things that they do, and I was like, cool, prove it. And they're like, well, what do you mean? And I was like, well, like, prove it. Like, what did. What does that look like? Like, give me the proof that this worked that way. And they were like, well, it could do.
Sunny Dublick [:And I was like, no, no, no. People like that trust comes from proving your value over and over again, and it comes from showing up and doing more than you should. And I always talk about this in marketing, like, value first. Like, before they even come in the door, I want them to feel like you've already given them $1,000 worth of information, right? Like, because it makes it an easy sale. And so I think, you know, I've been thinking a ton about this. I just read Deepak Chopra's seven laws of spiritual success.
Sara Lohse [:Okay.
Sunny Dublick [:It's like 50 pages. I picked it up at five below, and I was like, this looks like it could be insightful, but one of the things it talks a lot about, like, karma and, like, manifestation and all of these principles we know. Well, one of the things that, like, just keeps coming up for me is, like, we draw such a hard line between work and personal life that it's like, well, this is my business life, and then this is who I am at home. And I'm not saying, like, there's. There's reasons why those boundaries exist, but I'm saying that, like, if we acted in accordance with who we were personally at business, I think branding and marketing would be a lot easier. Instead of just pushing crap out into the universe and being, like, hoping someone sees it, hoping someone buys. Acting like, I want to understand these people better. Like, let's say you're a new brand starting out.
Sunny Dublick [:Like, you have 30 Instagram followers. Why not start writing them and just seeing what they're interested in, what they like about your brand, what they think is missing. Right? Like, I think there's so much ego involved in business where if you think about it from a personal perspective, you could never walk around like brands do. Right? The level of just high level narcissism and ego that we swing around of, we're the best. We're the best, we're the best. No one wants to hear it. You know, it's coming down to earth and being human. And I think that's what works.
Larry Roberts [:You know, I think at the same time, it's a little scary, though. And I see this more often than not. Then people, they either post the same crap that everybody else posts, they have the inspirational quote card or whatever it may be, and then they hit you with a value bomb of some sort, or they post nothing. Yeah, and you mentioned ego, which definitely rang true to me. But at the same time, there's that fear of that acceptance. And so many people don't take the necessary action to get their brand out because they're afraid of that rejection. They're afraid of people actually seeing their personality and go, well, I'm sure they love my brand, but they're not going to love me.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah, yeah, I have a I have a friend who has a shirt down here which I love. It says not for everyone and I just love it because that's the. As cheesy as that is, like, it's good when people don't like you because it's a reaction, like they're not for you, then you know, like, I talk about this a lot with, sorry, my camera's going a little haywire. This is a recent Amazon purchase, but I talk about this a lot that, like, I think sometimes people are so keen to please. Like, it was just like what we were talking about. Like I was writing and doing all of my personal marketing for everyone else and I took myself out of that equation and that's where the misses. Because people want to feel like they can relate to you. You know, the brands, like, I always ask when people come to me and they tell me what they are, what they want and what they're looking for, one of my first questions is like, can you start telling me some of the brands that are aspirational to you and that you love? And then I start asking, like, do you feel like you're marketing in accordance with the things that those brands do? Like, everyone's always going to say, apple, I'm an Android user, which is a bone of contention with so many people.
Larry Roberts [:Thanks for coming today. We appreciate it.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah, and we'll talk to you next week.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. My boyfriend literally was like, when I saw your text message come up green, I was like, I don't know about this.
Sara Lohse [:It's green, but it's a red flag.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. Almost didn't have a relationship because of it. But, no, I just think it's so very important to lean into what it is that you are. And I have a really good friend down here who's a realtor and she's like, all the tattoos, super spunky and real estate. You think of the woman with the headshot with the arms crossed and she's leaned so far into her brand. She has this, like, really awesome, like, sketch of her as like, like kind of the old school, like 50, 60 sketches and everything like that. That she. Yeah.
Sunny Dublick [:And it's like people love it and people resonate with her because she's showing who she really is. And again, it's not for everybody. And that's okay. It shouldn't be. And the people that don't like you, it's like, I mean, I can't tell you how much rejection I've faced because people want that more corporate person and I've learned that that's a good thing because it's like, I probably wouldn't enjoy working with them anyway.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah. There's enough people to go around that you don't need to appeal to every single person.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah, yeah. And like, just have fun. And it's like such a middle school kindergarten advice, like, be you again.
Larry Roberts [:It's just so hard. And I think I still fall prey to it today. Although I do cherish dearly the first piece of hate that I got online where someone, someone caught said, larry Roberts is a fraud. Discuss. I was like, yes, this works. I made it. This is amazing.
Sara Lohse [:No one discussed, though.
Larry Roberts [:Nobody discussed. So I don't know if that was.
Sara Lohse [:I should go back and add some comments.
Larry Roberts [:They didn't care or they, maybe they, I'm not a fraud. I don't know. But that was still just the coolest thing ever was to see that comment. I was like, this is the, this is great.
Sunny Dublick [:All press is good press, right?
Larry Roberts [:It's amazing. But to counter that, at the same time, you know, Sara and I still love the fact that we've had people email in and go, don't try to formalize your show.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Larry Roberts [:About how we cut out some of the bloopers and we cut out some of our banter and, and we've, we have people that email us. Don't do that. That human element, that's, that realness that allows us to listen and relate to what you're saying.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. It's like that question of like, why are we all trying so hard to be something that we're not sure. And you can see that so clearly, especially with personal brands, but also with like, some of the major brands. Like, I think the success of, like, Patagonias, for example, you have now all these outdoor companies that are like, we stand for something. It's like. But do you. Oh, you do? I don't know if you're a bridesmaids fan, but.
Larry Roberts [:I make that mistake all the time, or I have and I try not to now, and I'm not going to say that I don't, but I mean, I look at the big influencers that are out there that. Mostly male influencers, but I look at some female influencers, too. But I relate to the male influencers a little bit more. Like the Gary Vee's and the Alex Ramosis and the Grant cardone's and all these, these figures that are very, I can't think of the word off the top of my head, shocking. What do you call it when something.
Sara Lohse [:Polarizing.
Larry Roberts [:Polarizing. That's the word. See, the. The actual writer comes up with the word. But yeah, they're all polarizing entities. And I go, well, they're polarizing and they get all these views and they get all this success and they're making all this money, so I better be polarizing, too. And I did it so much so that I've got another podcast that I'm recording now. I'm gonna release the whole season when it comes, ten episodes all at once.
Larry Roberts [:And it's. It's a very localized podcast for Dallas Fort Worth business builders. And I recorded the first. And I've been working on this for. How long has it been, Sara? About a year. Yeah, probably a year. We've got six episodes in the can. I got four more to go.
Larry Roberts [:But about a year ago, I recorded in studio this intro to the show. And I'm sitting there and I'm. I'm bent over and I'm looking at the camera, my brows all furrowed, and I'm. I'm just. Welcome to DFW business builders, where we're gonna pull back the curtains on entrepreneurship. I was so mad for like, three and a half minutes of this intro, and then we start re recording. I had to, you know, I had to put on the back, back burner, and I went and watched it, I don't know, a month or so ago. I'm like, dude, what am I so pissed about? So we had to go back in studio and just record me being normal, just being.
Larry Roberts [:But I was so hard to be that polarizing influencer in town. And I was like, this is ridiculous.
Sara Lohse [:I think we're all just trying to do the thing that we see people doing because we assume if they're doing it, it's the thing to do.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:And like you said before, the sea of sameness, we talk about that a lot when it comes to event marketing. And like the, like the expo halls. Yeah, because we walk through expo halls and it's just table with banner and pens and maybe some candy and some other little tchotchke with a logo on it that you're going to throw out and just cause a whole nother landfill.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. And it's.
Sara Lohse [:There's nothing. There's no connection. There's nothing different. There's nothing that stands out. So every time we do something like a booth, we always try to do something different and something that we know that the audience of that event is going to connect with and something that we feel is just fun and very usually. So we had. We did an event that was like, a older female audience, and we turned our expo hall booth into a friendship bracelet making station.
Sunny Dublick [:Oh, my God, I love that.
Sara Lohse [:It was so much fun. And it's not just grab a pen and run, it's you got to sit here. I brought chairs from home that were comfy.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:And you have to sit there and make a bracelet. And that gives me time to talk to you about what you do and how you do it and what your pain points are. I love that. Then for Podfest, where it's like a very kind of fun, almost like the whole conference is a party vibe, we turned our whole booth into a light up photo booth with an eight foot inflatable backdrop. All these lights, balloons, instruments, glasses, all this fun stuff. But to get your photo, you give us your email, so love it. People are coming over just cause they wanted their photo and then the photos come out with our logo on them. They forgot to take pictures of themselves the whole time, so they're sharing the photo with our logo and we're getting all of this additional marketing.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:And it's just such simple ideas.
Sunny Dublick [:Yep.
Sara Lohse [:Like the, the bracelet making station cost me like a $100 in like beads and string and they got to put their own brand on a bracelet and like, they loved it. They were making them for their kids, their grandkids. Like, they were coming back five times. Yeah, it cost me a $100.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. Well, you did like the most awesome thing, which is you put yourself in the position of like, what would make me stop? And like, that's really all it takes. Like, sometimes I think people think they need to pay marketers like, a ridiculous amount of money for all these things, and it's just like, just put yourself in the position of what works for you, because oftentimes you're your own ideal customer. So it's like, what would make you stop? I just did my first ever booth exhibit. I was so nervous because I was by myself, but I did it in London, in the UK, and I knew that there was going to be a bunch of other marketers there, which is always stressful because there's, and the, our industries were a little bit different because they were digital marketing. I don't handle anything digital marketing, but I wanted people to come over and interact with me. So I built an entire whiteboard on one side of the booth, like half of it, and I had these stickies and I asked everybody what they thought the world's best brands were, and it was such a great conversation starter and I would put them on there and then I would tally them up at the end of every day, and people would come back around. They're like, oh, I'm curious what other people.
Sunny Dublick [:People said. But it was such a good, like, hey, I don't focus on people think marketing, they think ads. You know, they think social media. And I would start talking, like, no, this is how you build a brand that is worth noticing and talking about. And, like, what do you love about this brand? And by the way, what do you do? And it was such a great intro, and, like, I wanted the booth to feel interactive, like, you were talking about, like, I didn't want people to just walk up and take some flyers and, like, they're never going to talk to me, you know?
Larry Roberts [:Yeah, the trash. So, yeah, yeah, most likely it's going in the trash.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:I even apologize. I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm literally just here because you have umbrellas. I'm taking an umbrella and going, yeah, like, I. It was raining that day and you had umbrellas. I don't care what you do. I don't want to get wet.
Sunny Dublick [:I had a guy get mad at me because I wanted. He had these, like, cute little octopus stuffed animals that was, like, their logo. And I said, hey, can I grab one of these for my nephew? And he was like, are you interested in, like, it was, like, fintech or something? I was like, no. And he was, like, giving me the weird look, and I just took it in red because I was like, I'm.
Sara Lohse [:Not interested in fintech. I'm interested in octopuses.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah, exactly. My nephew. But, yeah, there's so much of that, like, you, like, exactly what you're saying. That's so serious. And so, like, there's also this weird vibe at a lot of those shows where it's like, come over and talk to us because we're so great.
Sara Lohse [:Yes.
Larry Roberts [:And it's.
Sunny Dublick [:I don't know, it's just awkward.
Larry Roberts [:Yeah, it's creepy because you see them staring at you and you make that eye contact. You're like, oh, God, I made eye contact. My bad, my bad, my bad. You have to either go over there or you have to turn and run because you don't want to be verbally assaulted. You know what I mean? I know they don't typically verbally assault you, but that's how it feels.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:Like the people that get the kiosks in the mall that will hunt you down to give you lotion. Oh, my God.
Sunny Dublick [:There's one up the street from my office, and I just walk down and I always have my phone. I'm like, no, thank you.
Sara Lohse [:Oh, don't make eye contact. Blinders. Oh, God. Pretend you're texting.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah, but it's awkward because you walk up and they're pitching you. They're, like, hard pitching you, and you haven't even warmed up. It's like, it's. I joke, like the drunk person at the party who's only talking about themselves, and everyone's like, shut up. Like, can someone please get this guy away?
Sara Lohse [:The guy that brings the guitar?
Sunny Dublick [:Yes. Oh, my God.
Larry Roberts [:There's that mean out there where they look like they're a new couple. And the chick, they're like, at a sporting event, maybe at a baseball game or something. They're in the stadium, and she's just totally disengaged. But bro has got his arm around her, and he's staring right at her, and he's explained, you know, like, he's telling her the game, mansplaining the game or something, and she's just totally not having it. But that meme, because so many times, that's what happens to our brand.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Larry Roberts [:You know, we're trying to tell people that don't give two pennies about what we're talking about and don't change the conversation to meet them where they're at.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Larry Roberts [:You know, we're too busy trying to be the experts, too busy trying to show that we know what we're talking about and our brand is the best, but, oh, girl, here she is, our first date, man. She just wants to get to know you.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. Yes.
Larry Roberts [:We skip that step, you know?
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:I mean, talking about why your marketing sucks, I feel like a big part is because you're focused on yourself instead of your customer.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. And it's that narcissism.
Sara Lohse [:Yes. People don't care about you. They care about what you can do for them.
Sunny Dublick [:Yes.
Sara Lohse [:And that's what you need to be pushing. Like the bracelets. We had them put their own brand or their child's name or whatever they wanted on a bracelet because this is about you. We want to get your brand out there. Not ours. The photos. It's a photo of yourself with your friends and your experience. It had nothing to do with us other than we stopped our logo on it and we paid for it.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:And we stole your email address in exchange for it. But that's what the people love is because it's like, okay, this is something for me.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:And that's what you need to be really pushing.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. It's something personal. That gets them in the door and it gives them a sense of value of something, like, fun. Like, it automatically tees up, you guys, as being fun, and they're not looking at you like, oh, remember, like, I met, like, 17 other podcasters. They were a drag. But, like, I got a friendship bracelet here. Like, I don't know, it really is so much simpler, I think, than we let ourselves believe. And I.
Sunny Dublick [:I get so bogged down. Like, it's funny. Like, you know, I have people all the time, like, well, do we need a TikTok now? And, like, what about Snapchat? And then there's be real. And, like, people will come to me with these, like, questions of, do I have to do this, this, this? And I'm like, first of all, like, just ask yourself, like, does that feel good to you at all? And, like, is your audience even there? Like, I had a client come to me and he said, I need Instagram engagement. I was like, that's not what I do. But, like, let's really talk about what you need. And he needed sales. And I was like, hey, I'd really love to do some more research into your company.
Sunny Dublick [:And I'll do, like, a brand audit. Turns out that, like, his customers are all 65 plus. And I'm like, dude. I was like, they're not on Instagram. What are we doing here? You would have wasted so much money. And I think that's what is hard about marketing, is I do think a lot of it gets a bad name because I joke about writing your own marketing prescription. So you go to a company, you say, I need 10,000 more Instagram followers. They're going to say, cool, I'll take that.
Sunny Dublick [:I'll do it. We'll charge you this much money. But they don't know what's really going on because you've written your own prescription. It's like going to a doctor saying, I need open heart surgery. And you've never had a scan, right? So it's like, if you learn to identify what you really want, you can actually get it, but you're going to. Right now, so many people see what's happening. I need more followers on Instagram. I need greater email engagement.
Sunny Dublick [:I need conversions through ads to be better. And they're just hopping from agency to agency and marketer to marketer. Like, it's the definition of insanity, right? Repeating the same thing, expecting different results. And it's like if you learn to identify what it is you're really looking for in need, it just makes it so much easier on everyone.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah. And I feel like a lot of the metrics that they're looking at are vanity metrics.
Sunny Dublick [:Yes.
Sara Lohse [:Like, you don't need 10,000 followers. You need, like, a thousand followers that actually care about what you're doing and want to write.
Sunny Dublick [:Yes.
Sara Lohse [:Like, all 10,000 followers. If they're not active, all that gives you is being able to say, I have 10,000 followers.
Sunny Dublick [:Exactly. And it's a hard, it's for, like, an outside person. I can understand it if you don't understand the market because I can't tell you how many people will come to me, like, well, I need SEO and this is $2,000 a month, but I just need it because they told me I need it and I need to be the top page of Google. And some of it, you just have to realize you're never going to be, like, you know, me as a marketer, like, in the Us. You know what I mean? I'm never going to be on page one and I'm okay with that. Charleston, I might be a little bit. It's a little easier, but there are some things that just aren't doable that people will promise you. The moon, the sun and the stars, it's like sifting through, like, what do I really need? You know, what do I really want? What do I really need?
Larry Roberts [:How do we help people find that, though? Because, I mean, even me, ten years in, I still go, do I really need that? What do I really need?
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Larry Roberts [:And we still struggle with it. And I mean, we have a podcast about branding, but at the same time, we still go through the same struggles.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Larry Roberts [:How can people find out what they need?
Sunny Dublick [:Sure. I think first and foremost, I always like to make a list for people of what works and what doesn't work. Because you've tried a certain number of things. Right. And it doesn't mean that the didn't work list isn't applicable in some way, but it might just be that you weren't doing it the right way or optimizing the right way. But I'm really curious of say your main strategy is events, and you've gone to 15 events a year and you've gotten one sale from it. Something's up. I like to go through the process of what's been done and what's good and what's bad.
Larry Roberts [:I'm sorry, sunny. I was laughing, but I wasn't laughing at it. I was laughing out of embarrassment. So.
Sunny Dublick [:That'S okay. That's okay.
Larry Roberts [:I have no idea what's going on here, but it's.
Sunny Dublick [:Maybe that's not the right medium. So one of the things that I'm really passionate about, the process I work with, with clients, always starts with research. So it's everything that they've done marketing wise. Like, I do an audit of their brand, I talk to their customers, I talk to people internally, their C suite, different employees at different phases and places in the organization. And then from there, I come to them with a strategy, which is all of the bedrock of what it is your brand does. And then the next part is a marketing plan because that makes it actionable. And what I hate is that traditionally we're trained to think we need an agency and they're going to give us again. It's like the big three.
Sunny Dublick [:It's like ads, emails and social. And people think that's it. Like the sleeping giant here. Always, and I always talk about this, is like we're always missing referrals. Like, we're never talking about loyalty referrals. Upselling. Like the low hanging fruit is something no one ever talks about, right? And it's so true, because the key to being great at anything and being successful is doing awesome work. And having people tell people about it like that, in its essence, is just.
Sunny Dublick [:My business, honestly, has grown so much just based off of people telling other people about me. And nine times out of ten, when it's a random person, it's not as great of a fit because those people are like, this is what sunny can do for you, that kind of thing. But when I design a marketing plan, it's based all around what I know about their customers because I've talked to them. So, for example, if you're going to these 15 trade shows, I always ask customers, like, which one? Like, have you attended any of these? What are your thoughts on these? Sometimes they're like, this is a dinosaur. We wouldn't go to that anymore. We're going here now, or, or we're taking things online, or now we're listening to podcasts. Like, I think sometimes it's like making sure a, you have the finger on the pulse of, like, where are they and what excites them, right? And it's like, it's just taking it backwards to, like, getting inside of their mind and what's working. But there's so many cool things that we can do that we don't even think about.
Sunny Dublick [:Like, grassroots things, right? Like, I see these all the time. Like, I'm always on the lookout. I think it was Maybelline in London on top of subways, they had, like, the eyelashes above the lights as a way to promote their new subway line. But, like, it's fun and it's kitschy. And you remember it, right? I ask friends all the time if they have marketing ads that they remember to tell me because I'm always curious. And someone was telling me there was a subway bus ad, and it was like, this is the. It was a one star review for a book, and it was of the Bible, and it said, would never recommend or read Satan. And it was.
Sunny Dublick [:It was for a church. And I was like, that's hysterical. And it's so different. And you think about that, right? So it's like, again, it's. I think we pigeonhole ourselves into. Here's the three or four things that we know we can do. We'll take them to an agency. They'll execute them for us instead of.
Sunny Dublick [:Right. Are there ways to make things like you were talking about the friendship bracelet station and, like, the photo booth, and, like, that's the out of the box thinking. And I think that's what being a good marketer is, honey.
Larry Roberts [:Those were my ideas. Both of those.
Sara Lohse [:He was so against them. He thought that friendship Raza was the dumbest. We had to make an entire episode dedicated to him apologizing for how much he resisted.
Larry Roberts [:I hated it.
Sara Lohse [:Oh, my God. He's like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. How did I end up in business with you?
Sunny Dublick [:But it works. You can't argue with me.
Sara Lohse [:I'm still talking about it. Last event we went to, they're like, you're the friendship razor people. What are you doing this time? Yeah, no, they love it. I'm curious, though, because you talk about referrals.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:How do you ask for referrals? Or do you. Do they just come all the time?
Sunny Dublick [:I'm always asking for referrals. And, I mean, I guess I could say it depends. Like, when I am busy as all hell, I'm not like, hey, can you give me more work? But especially in when projects are at the point where I feel like I've proven proved enough value that they understand what I do. Right? Because I hate nothing more than when you just start working with someone and they're like, give us a five star review. Give us a referral. Like, all of this, and I'm like, I just met you. No. So it usually depends what phase of business I'm in if I'm, like, actively bd taking on other clients.
Sunny Dublick [:But you know what's so funny? Is how awkward we feel asking.
Larry Roberts [:And, like, why so awkward? So awkward. I don't get it. I've tried to overcome it, but I still feel just awkward. Hey, by the way, can I, you know anybody that also wants a podcast? That'd be great. I feel so stupid asking for referrals.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:One of our clients, they admitted this on one of. On a podcast that we produced for them. She will send an email saying that, like, she's gonna stop taking on clients. So let, like, let me know if there's anyone you really want to recommend that, like, really needs me. But then I'm stopped. I'm not taking clients anymore. And she'll get bombarded with referrals.
Sunny Dublick [:Scarcity creates demand.
Sara Lohse [:Yes. I think it was. I think it was back when she. It was Joanna and Leah from women's share, and I think it was back when they were in the marketing for financial advisors, like, space. And she's like, yeah, no, we would get so many. And part of me is like, that is genius. And the other part of me is like, you are lying, but do we care? No, it's genius.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. Because those clients have no idea. And, like, I hear there's obviously both sides of the coin there, but, yeah, I mean, the scarcity thing of, like, hey, I only have one more spot. People start, like, that tension all of a sudden building in their minds of, like, oh, my God, I have to grab it. Like, I have to do it now.
Sara Lohse [:So anything with, like, a time limit, like, first ten people, or you only, like, today only. They work for a reason.
Sunny Dublick [:That's so funny. It's so funny. But, you know, one of the things that, like, I really. I always say this in marketing is, like, are you making it easier for the. Easy for the customer to buy from you? Are you making it hard? Do they have to go down a rabbit hole to figure out what it is you do and how you do it and what your pricing is and, like, all of that, and, like, nothing is easier than being like, I have these services. There's a limited time. Like, here's where you sign the dotted line.
Sara Lohse [:Like, yeah, I feel like that part is hard, though, especially with, like, companies like ours and yours. It's, like, service based.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:It can be hard to translate services into products.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:100% structuring and everything. I mean, that's what me and Larry talk about this all the time, is how can we take this thing that we can do for you and just format it in a way that is viable?
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah, I think it's nice to have the baseline to mess around with. Like, it's like, here's the packages. And most of my work is because my work is like this. It's always custom.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah.
Sunny Dublick [:It's like, I can say that my, like, research, like, intro package starts at this and it's interviewing five people here and five people here. But usually there's a bit of push and pull if I only have three. You know what I mean? I think it gives them, like, a north star because otherwise feels so broad and so. Which can be scary.
Sara Lohse [:Right. I'm always saying, like, well, it depends.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:I feel like a politician or a lawyer and doesn't feel good.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:How can I work with you? Well, it depends. What do you want and where are we starting and how much am I doing? How much is your team doing? Like, there's so many things that go into it.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. That's why I do, like, having package pricing as like that. Again, the baseline, almost no one does a package. Right. They look at them, though, and they're like, oh, cool, I like this, but can we talk about this? And then it kind of just fluctuates from there, but it gives them. Yeah, because I think I read this, I forget it might be like 40,000 decisions a day the average person has to go through. And it's stupid stuff. Like, am I getting up here? Am I wearing these shoes? What time am I going to the gym? All of those things.
Sunny Dublick [:But, like, we're like, the average human is exhausted. I think they also get around 10,000 marketing messages a day.
Larry Roberts [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:There's 60 billion pieces of content put out into the world every single day.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. So, like, my question always becomes, like, are you adding to the clutter or are you making it easier and better on them? Because I think sometimes we put things out. Like, even you were talking earlier about content, you're like, sometimes, like, we just don't post anything. Like, we don't know what to post. And it's like, oh, I gotta post something. I had to post. Like, here's something, right?
Sara Lohse [:Posting for the sake of posting.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. And it's like, you just gotta gut check that. Like, am I really adding something good and useful or am I just showing up to the party just to say I'm there? Right. Like, because people are going to remember those, like, those weird, awkward bits. But again, I think it's just, like, so much of it is just needing to, like, take the ego out of it. And, like, we been talking about since the beginning. Like, you just focus on the people it's for. And, like, is this better for them? Is this easy on them? Do they understand it? Did they like it? And if you don't know, you just ask.
Sunny Dublick [:Like, it really can be that simple.
Sara Lohse [:You know, I was just in a client meeting a couple weeks ago and trying to figure out how they want to market this service that they're trying to redefine. So they brought me in to sit on this meeting while they figured out how to structure the services and the business model around it and all of this. And, like, I don't. I don't need to be here. I'm not. I'm not marketing the business model around this service.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:I just need to know, what's the end result? What are you giving to the people? How is this going to change their life?
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:You don't market the service, you market the result.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah, yeah.
Sara Lohse [:You misunderstood.
Larry Roberts [:Exactly. So many people misunderstand that. And, I mean, I take it all the way back to, you know, when I came out of high school, I started selling cars, and I spent.
Sara Lohse [:I don't know why my brain thought, you're gonna say selling drugs. I'm so sorry, cars.
Larry Roberts [:And that was in high school, but after high school. But I spent the first few months just selling the car.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Larry Roberts [:Oh, it does all. It does this. It does that. It does this. It has this, it has that. But not selling the value to each of those features and functions.
Sunny Dublick [:Yep.
Larry Roberts [:And once I started understanding that and making that transition, I started selling a lot more cars. And, you know, it's the same thing with selling.
Sara Lohse [:I have no idea what kind of engine is in my car. What sold me on my car is in the door. There's a specific holder for your umbrella. You slide. It's like an umbrella shelf that you slide your umbrella in so you always have one. Nobody at the entire dealership knew about it. I sold myself the car because I'm just like, this is an umbrella holder. That's so cool.
Sara Lohse [:They're like, what? How do you even know that? Like, there's an umbrella picture right above it. How don't you. This is what you need to be telling people. Yeah, tell people about the umbrella holder. I don't care about the horsepower. That means nothing to me.
Sunny Dublick [:Yep, same. Same.
Sara Lohse [:Holds my umbrella. I went out and bought umbrellas that match the car. I have umbrellas. I needed them. That will go with the car. It'll look like it came with it. This is meant to be together.
Sunny Dublick [:I love it.
Sara Lohse [:I am a marketer's dream.
Sunny Dublick [:Volkswagen did the thing where they had.
Sara Lohse [:The little vase in the Beatles in the buggy.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. And it was such a thing because girls loved that. They loved, like, personalizing their car. Like, personally, I'm a Wrangler girl, and I will tell you why. Because I was obsessed with clueless growing up, and Cheryl Horowitz had a wrangler. And then when the time came for me to finally, like, pick a car that I wanted, I had a friend who was selling jeeps, and I was like, it's feels serendipitous at this point. Barbie had a jeep. Cher had a jeep.
Sunny Dublick [:Like, sign me up.
Larry Roberts [:Like, he's got jeeps, man. I had, I had. I had a jeep at one time. I loved it. It was great.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:I grew up on country music. I always wanted a silverado.
Sunny Dublick [:This is. Well, and again, but it's. They talk a lot. There's this book I'm obsessed with. It's called for the Culture by Marcus Collins. And he talks a lot about belief systems and subculture. But, like, country music is a subculture where having a truck is so paramount to how you see yourself showing up in that culture. Like, having a jeep.
Sunny Dublick [:Like, I live by the beach, like, and I love the ducks. And, like, there's so much about jeep that has built a brand around us. Weirdos that are like, we need the doors off our car. Like, who says, like, who thought of that?
Sara Lohse [:It's because they didn't build a brand. They built a community.
Sunny Dublick [:Yes, yes.
Sara Lohse [:And Subaru is now trying to do the same thing. If you've heard of, like, the Moomoo Subaru, now, instead of ducking a jeep, you have little cows that you put on a Subaru.
Sunny Dublick [:I have not heard that.
Larry Roberts [:Haven't heard of that one.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:Mumu Subaru. I don't know if Subaru came up with it or someone else did, but it's all. They're building a community. They want people that will just become brand evangelists because they create, they turn their product into something intrinsic in their life.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:Like, jeep owners are a different breed.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:There are people and then there are.
Sunny Dublick [:Jeep owners or strangers.
Sara Lohse [:It's like vegans. It's like if they have a jeep, they will tell you. Yes, my best friend's vegan. I'm not saying that to be mean, but it's like, they will tell you. You will know.
Sunny Dublick [:Yep.
Larry Roberts [:Best friend, vegan. Like, that gives you a pass.
Sara Lohse [:It's like everyone knows. Actually, my best friend is both vegan and drives a jeep. So.
Sunny Dublick [:I read this super awesome case study about wranglers because obviously. But there was this gentleman who did a marketing research experiment about them because they were actually thinking about their sales were way down on the Wrangler, and they were trying to make it more like every other american suv because they thought that's what people wanted, and they did this. He does these fascinating experiments. It's like 5 hours long, and he just talks to people the whole time, and then they wind up telling all these life stories. But people loved jeep. Like, they had a code word for it, is what he. His whole premise is basically on called the culture code. But they associate it with the word horse because they were like, we associate with riding out into the west.
Sunny Dublick [:Like, it's almost like being on a horse. You got the doors off the top off. Like freedom. Like, we think as jeep owners, we want more freedom. So they actually, he's responsible for them going back to the circular headlights because I don't know if you remember, but for a while they were square because they were trying to make them blend in. And essentially all of his research, he went back to Chrysler and he was like, no, set this apart. Make this for the people that are the adventurous. I need the four wheel drive.
Sunny Dublick [:I want to go up a mountain. I'm like the people that would rather be on a horse if they could be. And I thought that that was fascinating.
Sara Lohse [:Jeep has done so much research with their marketing. They even, I think it was the renegade when it came out, which I'm pretty sure flopped. But when it came out, they were, they beta tested the commercial for it, and it was like, the truck is driving and there's explosions and all of this. And they tracked where people's eyes were going and planted the explosions based on eye movements.
Sunny Dublick [:Ugh, that's so cool.
Sara Lohse [:The last episode we were doing was all about, like, psychology behind some, like, branding and all this stuff. So I'm rabbit holed. And, yes, it's fascinating.
Sunny Dublick [:It's so cool.
Sara Lohse [:My degrees are in advertising and psychology.
Sunny Dublick [:That's a dangerous combination there.
Sara Lohse [:It takes people a minute. They're like, why would you do both of those? I'm like, think about it.
Sunny Dublick [:Yep, yep.
Sara Lohse [:I know how you think. I can sell you anything. So, so interesting. Dave does a great job at everything.
Sunny Dublick [:Yeah. Except for building cars that parts a little sketchy.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah, that part's iffy. But other than that, their branding and marketing is on point.
Larry Roberts [:You know, you talked about that five hour research that that gentleman did, and we could turn this into a five hour podcast episode, but we should probably go ahead. So I think it's been an amazing conversation. Had a lot of good insight, had a lot of fun. And that's what we love doing here at branding. Branded branding. I don't even know what the name of the show is, but we love having a ton of fun on each and every episode. So let's say thank you for coming out. Also, where can people reach out and find you and learn more about you and how they can make sure that their marketing is not bullshit?
Sunny Dublick [:Awesome. So you can find me on my website, sunnydublic.com. and then I'm also, I'm only on LinkedIn because I am an anti social media marketer. LinkedIn is the place where people are, and that's where I post the most.
Larry Roberts [:So cool deal. Cool deal. Well, Sunny, I know I got a lot of value added this episode. I'm gonna guess Sara did as well.
Sara Lohse [:And also a new best friend.
Sunny Dublick [:Yes. Owners unite.
Larry Roberts [:So everybody, value in this episode, do us a favor. Go ahead and hit that subscribe button so we can continue to bring you these amazing episodes each and every week.
Sara Lohse [:And send us referrals.
Larry Roberts [:Send us some referrals. Send us more business callback right there. I love it. So with that, I'm Larry Roberts.
Sara Lohse [:I'm Sara Lohse. We'll talk to you next week.
