Ever wondered what it takes to lead in today's fast-paced world? Join us on this week's episode as I interview Vanessa Judelman, President of Mosaic People Development and author of 'Mastering Leadership.' Hailing from Toronto, Vanessa brings over 20 years of experience to the table as a speaker, facilitator, and certified executive coach.

In our conversation, we explore Vanessa's insights into the evolving landscape of leadership. Having worked “in the trenches” herself as a leader, she teaches her clients a very practical approach to leadership that she has used to develop her own high-performing teams. She gives them the tools and strategies they need to feel confident, be more self-aware, be team-focused, and be strategic. 

Vanessa leaves us with her three pillars of leadership success. Tune in for a journey into mastering leadership in today's dynamic world.

In this episode you will learn:

• Why leadership can be challenging
• How leadership has changed
• The core things that leaders need to learn today
• Collaboration has always been a part of leadership
• The importance of delegation
• How women and men lead differently
• Three pillars of leadership success
• The importance of discovering one's leadership style and authenticity
• Benefits of working with leaders

Learn more about Vanessa:

Website: https://www.mosaicpd.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessajudelman/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MosaicPeopleDevelopment

IG: https://www.instagram.com/vanessajudelman/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MosaicPD

A little about me: 

I began my career as a teacher, was a corporate trainer for many years, and then found my niche training & supporting business owners, entrepreneurs & sales professionals to network at a world-class level. My passion is working with motivated people, who are coachable and who want to build their businesses through relationship marketing and networking (online & offline). I help my clients create retention strategies, grow through referrals, and create loyal customers by staying connected. 

In appreciation for being here, I have a couple of items for you. 

A LinkedIn Checklist for setting up your fully optimized Profile:  

An opportunity to test drive the Follow Up system I recommend by taking the  

10 Card Challenge – you won’t regret it.   

Connect with me: 

http://JanicePorter.com 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/janiceporter/ 

https://www.facebook.com/janiceporter1 

Thanks for listening! 

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Mentioned in this episode:

LinkedIn Ad

Hi, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of relationships rule. My guest today is coming to us from

Toronto, and I'm really excited to talk to her. Her name is

Vanessa unilumin. And Vanessa has is the author of the book

mastering leadership, what it takes to lead in today's fast

paced world about leadership. And she has also led her own

team. So there's gonna be some interesting conversation around

that. She's the president of Mosaic people development, and

for over 20 years has been helping clients to develop

leaders who inspire great results. She's a speaker, a

facilitator, a leadership consultant, and a certified

executive coach, and so much more. So welcome to the show,

Vanessa.

Thank you, Janice, great to be here.

That it's great. Um, I want to start with the

fact that you were in the trenches yourself, you have gone

through that leadership, climb the ladder type thing yourself,

and so in. In doing that, there's so many things in there.

Like, first of all, how much has it changed since you were doing

that work has changed a lot? And there's and the second question,

which I know it's going to take a bit, so we'll just right, can

you share a personal leadership challenge that you faced, and

how you overcame it?

Okay, I'm going to start with a challenge.

And then I'm going to go into the change part. So Oh, my gosh,

yeah, leadership is really challenging. It's not for the

faint of heart. And it takes a lot of courage to be a leader.

And that's why I really encourage leaders to get help

get a coach, find a mentor, get training, because the thing that

a lot of people don't realize is that when you go to university,

when you go to college, and you learn a certain skill, you

become an engineer, you become a marketing expert, whatever it is

an architect, that's what you learn in school, and then you

get promoted, because you're good at that job. But doing when

you get promoted into leadership, for the first time,

it's a completely different job. And most people don't realize

that, right? And so they find it challenging, or they feel like

they lack confidence. And that's normal, because it's a

completely different job. And so for me, one of my challenges was

working with people whose work style was different than mine.

So I'm a very fast paced, action oriented, outgoing extrovert.

I'm, I'm strategic, I like to move very quickly, I make

decisions very quickly. And I love to see things happen,

right? And for all of us, our strengths, when we overuse them

actually become our weaknesses, right. And so for me, as someone

who's very fast paced, and action oriented, I really was

challenged by people on my team, who and I'm thinking of one

person in particular, she was so challenging for me, Janice,

because she required time to progress. very analytical. As a

leader, she required a lot of detail from me. And to be really

honest, I found that incredibly frustrating,

for sure, she was like the complete opposite of

you. So I can understand that totally

polar opposite. She and she hated my

work style. She hated my leadership style. For the first

time in my career after leadership style. I was because

I'm so caring and I, and I just give everything to what I do and

to my team, and she hated my leadership style. She pushed

back all the time. She told me she didn't appreciate many

things that I did. But from her, I learned the most, of course,

yeah, learn to slow down. I learned to write everything down

for her. I learned to have agendas. I learned so much that

has been so helpful. So she was really the most challenging

person I've ever led. And the person I learned the most from

totally makes sense. And, and we I don't think

we know it at the time, especially on younger much

younger that that these people are meant to, you know, to

challenge us and to teach us something is funny, you know,

it's not funny, it wasn't funny last night but my little

granddaughter was here and she is four and she is hyper hyper

hyper. Okay, I can't I can't don't know what tonight's gonna

bring when she has Halloween candy in her but she didn't have

a nap at school yesterday. And I picked her up from school. And

she was fine in the car. We had this great conversation going

home and then we got home and we finished carving a pumpkin and

then all of a sudden she was like wild and she was running

around the house jump went upstairs was opening everything

was couldn't wouldn't listen to a thing. We finally after dinner

took her home Like we couldn't cope with her anymore. She was

unbelievable. But she's meant to teach us something this child,

she's come here for a reason. I mean, she is so because this is

what happened when my husband took her home. On the way home

in the car, she said, Grandpa, when I haven't had a nap, I get

crazy.

Right? You knew that? What a wise child do

that. She said,

I get crazy up and she did. So it's just a

stupid little story. But it's so the same thing in the sense that

they're not, we're not all built the same way. And we and we're

not, we have to learn to deal with all these other things. And

she'll learn as she gets older, hopefully that, you know, some

of that behavior wasn't appropriate. But anyway, so

funny. Okay, so the challenge, that person taught you a lot.

And so now, also, the second part was how leadership has

changed, right? Oh,

boy, a lot, a lot. Let me tell you a story. I

was just on the phone with one of my coaching clients. And he's

only 30. Okay, only been working for eight years. And he said to

me, Vanessa, the young people coming into the firm today are

completely different. And I don't know how to motivate them

and manage them. Because their expectations are different.

Their work ethic is different. He's in a professional services

firm. And it was a really interesting conversation,

because he's right, the workplace has changed so much in

the last eight years. And it's because of the pandemic, mainly

right. When he started eight years ago, he worked in a

professional services firm, he would sit right in a room with

the other partners, and he would learn through osmosis, he would

watch them he would see, he would see how they interacted

with clients, right? People and you have to think about it,

people who started in the last three years started work in a

pandemic, in their bedrooms in their living rooms, right? They

didn't have that ability to learn through osmosis. So one of

the thought one of the core things that leaders need to

learn today, that's so much different is number one, leading

in a hybrid workplace. And number two, the way that you

develop people now is completely different. I'm spending a lot of

time with my clients, teaching them how to develop people in a

virtual world, because our hybrid world is completely

different.

Mm hmm. Yes. And I saw it with actually with my

daughter going starting a new job just several months ago,

working from home, she did actually go into an office and

meet with her boss and a couple of people a couple of times. So

she goes in there once in a while. But most of the time,

she's completely isolated by herself. And then sitting on

Zoom calls, trying to learn the product line and learn all this

stuff. And it's, it's just not the same. It's very, very

different for sure. So I can see that. And then also, just to

sort of sideline from that. I remember talking to a couple of

people who are in the business of the changing aspect of work

like that's their their work has changed and how I don't know if

I said this to you when we spoke previously, but the word

collaboration, actually, it's kind of a misnomer, in the sense

or not misnomer, but a an oxymoron because we're all, you

know, isolated in so many ways still, but that collaboration is

becoming more of a thing. And is an Would you agree with that,

first of all? Oh, yeah.

I mean, collaboration is always core to

leadership, because as a leader, you you have your job, right. So

you have your own objectives and accountabilities. And you also

have to get results through other people. That's your job as

a leader, right, of course. So collaboration is always has has

always been and will always be a part of leadership. And the way

that you collaborate now is different because you can't walk

over to someone's desk. Right? So the one of the core skills

that I've been really working on with the leaders that I'm

working with is coaching, right? Because you can be a really good

coach virtual in in a virtual capacity in person over zoom.

And so, for example, one of the one of my coaching clients that

I was chatting with yesterday, she was really having a problem

in meetings and keeping her meetings focused. And one of the

things she said to me is, you know, Vanessa, I find she leads

a group of project managers that I have to be so patient because

the first 10 minutes all they do is complain. And as a leader, I

want to be collaborative, and I want to give them space to vent

but to be honest, it drives me crazy. So I said this is

coaching. And one of the ways that you can coach is is As you

know, coming from that place of curiosity, and tool that I want

to share with your listeners is asking questions that start with

the word watch. Because what questions are very open ended.

And so the structure that I put in place, the coaching structure

I put in place for her is, when you start a meeting, start with

these three steps. Number one, what's working on this project,

everybody start with the positive, it immediately gets

people to recognize that you know what, there are things that

are going well, then you start, then you move to what's not

working, and literally type it on a whiteboard, you can do this

on Zoom, you can do it virtually put a wipe, what's not working,

then go through everything, what's not working. And the

third column would be what can we do to overcome what's not

working. That's just an example of how we can be collaborative.

OCE people get them to think for themselves and solve their own

problems all at the same time. So leaders are having to learn

tools like that, to build collaboration in a virtual

world.

That's a great, that's great. I think anybody

whether you're leading a team, or you're a leader, you know,

you're even an entrepreneur, solopreneur, but you have some

contract staff that you have worked for you every once in a

while, or you know, or regularly, but you have to learn

how to how to lead them to do what you want, how you want it,

and so on as well. That for me is is you know, I always thought

of myself, I was a teacher in my first life. And then I was a

corporate trainer. And in both cases, I'm in front of the group

I'm teaching I'm not coaching I'm teaching is totally

different thing. However, they're all looking to me for

the answers. Right? And, and, and I was extroverted. So I was

comfortable being in that situation. As I've gotten older,

I don't feel as comfortable about it as they used to. And

also, I think my confidence around well, I don't know, if

it's confidence, or I just don't like to delegate, I've become

real. Yeah. And I think you have to be able, I think I heard that

you say that in something I was listening to about delegating.

That's one of the things you have to learn to do as a leader.

Oh, for sure. And, again, it's one of those

skills that are critical, that is critical for leadership, but

most people don't know how to do it. And the reason it's critical

is delegation has so many different purposes. So one of

the purposes of delegation is just for you to get things off

your plate that you shouldn't be focusing your time on, right.

Whenever I say whenever I speak to leaders, I get them to write

down their priorities, what are your key goals and priorities

right now? And then I get them to look at their to do list and

say, Okay, let's look at what's on your to do list. Now, what's

aligned with that and what's not? And what do you need to let

go up? Because sometimes leaders don't delegate because they like

doing something, right. But it's not their job to do it anymore.

It was maybe like two jobs ago. Number one, you have to be

willing to let go. So one of the benefits of delegation is you

get to let go stuff and get it off your plate. The second

benefit is for your team, because they get to learn. And

one of the key motivators for people in the workplace is

learning and growth. People want to learn and grow. Okay, another

benefit of delegation is succession planning. You know,

if you decide to leave your organization or move to another

department in your organization, you need a successor. And so

you're building and developing your successor. Its delegations

a retention strategy, again, because people want to learn and

grow. So delegation is not only for you, it's for your team as

and the organization as well, there's so many

benefits. Mm hmm. So when I think about people

being elevated to leadership roles for the first time, and

things like that, I think of the Peter Principle, I can't help

it. But you know, so often I've seen people get put into an, as

I recall, the Peter Principle is sort of being at the level of

your incompetence, right, that you move to a level that you

that is too much for you or you're not ready for or you're

in the wrong place. How often does that happen? And how can it

be avoided?

Well, it happens every time someone's

promoted.

Okay, yes,

I call it new level new devil, right? Every

time you're promoted, your job actually changes. So I coach a

lot of people who I call it transition coaching, who

transition from maybe VP to SVP or director to VP or SVP to

President. I have a client now who's just been promoted to the

role of president within her organization. So if you think

about it, when you're when you're leading for the first

time, there's actually a really interesting book called The

leadership pipeline, and they talk about the six passages of

leadership in the book, right? So if you're passage one leading

yourself, your job is to show up to work on time, be accountable,

have ownership over your job, be really good at what you do and

be a team player, the minute you move into passage to have

leadership, when you're managing other people for the first time,

your jobs just changed. Now you're not only accountable for

yourself, but for you have to get results through others, then

passage three is managing other managers accountable for

yourself. And now you have to get results through managers,

you have to get results through their people. So yeah, every

time you move into a new level of leadership, you have to learn

new skills. That's and and you have to learn to be more

strategic, for example, that's just, that's just a fact.

So I have to ask this question, because it with

the way works changed over the years. And with the the, there's

still a very small percentage of women in the top leadership

positions. But it's getting a little bit better, I hope, I

think, do you see changes in leadership with more women at

the top? Do you see in in not in leadership? Well, yeah, in

leadership, do you see changes because women are now in those

visits are in those positions?

I do women and men are different, we lead

differently. You know, women do tend to work more. I mean,

there's there's actually strengths and weaknesses that

women bring to the table. For example, a lot of women don't

share their accomplishments. So on one hand, women are amazing

leaders, because they're incredibly compassionate, great

listeners really care about their people. But remember, all

of your strengths, when you overuse them become your

weaknesses. So sometimes women care too much that they don't

give difficult feedback. Or women are not trained to share

their accomplishments. So you may see a woman getting promoted

into passage to have leadership, but she's gonna be overlooked

for the next passage, because there's a man who's younger than

her, I see this all the time, who's getting promoted over her

because he gets his own horn all the time, and shares his

accomplishments. Why because he's, that's how that's how he

was taught as a boy. And so that's one of the things that

women leaders need to know you have to share your

accomplishments, you can't think that someone's going to notice

what your accomplishments are. It's your job to share them and

to speak up. That's

really good. Yeah, I like that. I like that.

So what would you say the top three things are that it that it

takes to lead with impact?

So I have a great question. I actually have

a leadership model, which has three pillars, I call it the

three pillars of leadership success. So the three pillars

are as a leader, you have to know yourself, manage your team

and lead your business. So the Know yourself is self awareness.

So what are my strengths? What are my weaknesses? How am I

overusing my strengths? Are they become weaknesses? What kind of

environment do I create? How is that motivating and

demotivating? For the people on my team? How do I build trust?

That's the first pillar, the second pillar, manage my team is

all about how do I coach? How do I develop my team? How do I give

feedback? How do I move my team, maybe from underperforming to

performing or to become a high performing team, and then lead

your business is all about leading and managing change. And

in an order in, in an environment where 70% of change

initiatives fail, mostly just don't know how to lead change,

that has to be a priority for leaders. Lead your business is

about executing strategically, it's about being very focused on

your priorities and managing your time effectively. So so

that's why leader leadership is very complex, right? Because

there's so many different components of leadership. And

what I've tried to do in sharing these three pillars with leaders

is to take that complexity leadership and really narrow it

down into those three things, those three pillars or areas.

Okay, that

makes total sense. So, not everybody's a

leader, and not everybody. In my estimation, not everybody has

that has the qualities to be a leader. Would you agree or not?

Because you teach leadership? Were you coaching? Yes. So do

you ever come across people in leadership positions that you

think they're that they are in over their head that that's not

the right fit for them?

Well, I do believe because I've seen it,

everyone can be a leader, okay. Everyone can be a leader. And

the two things I want to see are skill and Well, number one, you

can learn leadership skills. Okay, fair enough. Oh, many

leaders are horrible leaders because it's, it's quite

frankly, it's not their fault.

Yeah, they haven't had the they didn't

haven't been given the tools. Yeah. Yeah.

They don't know. They don't know that, Oh,

it's my job to coach and develop people and give feedback. And

oh, and then they they just learned from some other bad

things or that they had who wasn't properly anyways. So part

of it is skill. The other part is, well, do I like it, I want

to do this. I've had people who were promoted into leadership

roles. And they've said to me, you don't Vanessa, I don't like

it. I want to be an individual contributor. And they've gone

back to doing that. And I've had people who've said, now that I

have the skill, the will is now there. It can go both ways.

Yeah, I think I guess you're right. I, I

remember wanting to looking at somebody I know that was in a

teaching situation, and and thinking about going into

administration, which is a completely different thing, and

got a chance to test it. And it felt it wasn't for him because

he was too far removed from the kids. So you know, not to say, I

guess that he couldn't have learned the skills that he

needed. But did he want to?

Yeah, the other thing that leaders have to

understand is, for all of us, there's a way to lead

authentically and you have to discover that's part of that

first pillar of know yourself, you have to discover what it

looks like for you to lead authentically. And I think a lot

of people have this model of leadership as an extrovert,

being an extrovert, you're walking the halls and you're

connecting with people and you're shouting out to people.

No, but I've worked with many. And I think that's why the book

quiet by Susan Cain was so popular because she said, No,

you know, and in terms of definitions, extroverts get

their energy from others introverts their energy from

themselves. It's not how friendly or outgoing you are at

all. And so I work with a lot of introverted leaders to say,

Okay, it's not going to feel authentic for you to lead in the

same way, someone who's highly motivating and extroverted with

lead. So let's talk about what it looks like you're an amazing

listener, how can you really dial up your listening? You are

really good at creating structure for people, how can we

leverage that? Right? And so every leader comes with their

strengths, and that's what you need to lead from.

Okay, so I jumped right in at the beginning. So

now I just want to back up for a second and say, Okay, how did

you get to this? How did you see that this was your, your secret

sauce that you this was your piece that you needed to teach

others or coach others how to be great leaders? How did you go

from being in the trenches, so to speak, and climbing that

ladder to now working for yourself and teaching others?

So like you I went? When I was at McGill

University in Montreal, I was an English major. And my mom said,

What are you going to do with an English degree? She was a

teacher, she said, Go to teachers college, I spent an

extra year I became a teacher I worked with at risk youth. After

getting a few binders thrown at my head, I thought, oh, you

know, I don't think this is for me. And I got an amazing job at

a training and consulting firm. And I worked there for 10 years.

And in that organization, I worked with global companies. I

had business development role, I had a junior Consulting and a

senior consulting role. Then I moved in house, I thought enough

of consulting, I'd have to be a leader myself, moved in house.

And that's where I was in the trenches, and I built teams, I

inherited teams that were low performing, I built high

performing teams, I worked with people who, as I mentioned, who

loved my leadership, sadly, didn't. And that was the best

experience. And after doing that, for many years, I thought,

Okay, now I'm ready to grow on my own. And what led me to being

a leadership consultant coach was actually, I mean, I always

love working with leaders because I feel like leaders

really set the tone in an organization. And if you can

work on a leader to develop their skills and confidence, it

has just tremendous ripple effects across their lives,

across their teams, laws, even their home lives, right. And

when I was on my second maternity leave, I actually had

the experience of having a horrendous leader who made my

life so miserable. And she was a very what I call unconscious

leader, she had no understanding of how her behavior impacted the

people around her. She was very harsh, overly direct, very

controlling really quite nasty. And when I had that experience

that really solidified my passion for leadership because I

really didn't want anyone to go through the experience that I

had of, of really like it was quite soul sucking having that

kind of soul sucking leader. Yeah,

I that was my very first principal when I

taught school was that person. Wow. Yeah, and I I'm amazed I

went beyond it. But I got out of there very quickly to another

school because he was just killing it for me and eventually

got asked to retire early. But that's about all they did in the

school system. But But yes, that was an experience at 21. That I,

I didn't know what to do with at the time, but you never forget

those things, right? You just don't they, they stay with you

and you the negative that, you know, that had such an effect on

you at the time. But then again, I'm thinking what you just said

about the good leaders, the positive leaders, the people,

you say, Oh, I just loved working for them. They were just

amazing. You know, he was taught me a lot, or she taught me a

lot. That's great. So I know that you work with a lot of,

well, organizations like you've worked with Campbell's Soup, the

United Nations, some really interesting organizations. And

there's one now I want to ask you about because I know it's a

client of yours now. And because it's a huge thing right now. And

that's HelloFresh. Right. And I don't use HelloFresh. But I do

use one of those food companies on occasion. And, and what makes

what I know they're a good one. And it's obviously one because

of the food. And so to it must be the leadership. So tell me

about what makes them a good company, how you've helped them.

So I work with HelloFresh, Canada, it's a

global organization. First of all, their president is

incredible. His name is Ian Brooks. He is one of those

leaders who is incredibly personable, incredibly

strategic, very smart, very people oriented, he has that

balance between task orientation and relationship orientation. So

I always find it organizations like that the leaders set the

tone. So here you have this leader at the top, who sets the

tone?

Is he the top of Canada or the top? Got it?

Okay, yes, he's the top candidate, and he

values his people. So that's why he hired me, because he said, I

know that leadership is a learned skill, I really value my

people. And I want everybody across the organization, and

I've been working them for three or four years, he said, I want

everyone across the organization to know why I value them, to

know I care about them, and to know that I'm investing in them.

And they just hire really great people and invest in their

people. And now I run, you know, maybe two cohorts of a year

about 20 leaders. And so there's hundreds of people in the

organization now who are knowledgeable, who know how to

lead who understand their strengths and weaknesses, who

know what it takes to build high trust, who know how to develop

their people. And so it's really created this ripple effect of a

culture of learning and growth and a very, and that's one thing

that Ian has is a very growth mindset. He really understands

that nothing is set in stone that, you know, people really

need to be given the opportunity to learn and grow and develop

that special. That's really scary. Special.

Yeah, I love that. So, as we wind down, I want to ask you a

couple of questions just for fun because I like to dig in a

little bit with my with my guests. The first one is Are you

do you go to a book book? Do you read? Do you do audible? Do you

do video? Do you do TV? Like movies? Like what? What's your

first thing that you love to do?

I do it all. I'm obsessed with podcasts. I

love to read. I mean, I was an English major in university. So

if you saw a stack of books beside my bedside table, I love

to read. I used

to but I don't read them as surprising. Yes,

it's fun to buy books. Maybe through osmosis

if you look at them, right? They'll go into your brain. I

like to balance business books with with fiction. And so right

now I'm reading the book soundtracks by Jon Acuff and

it's an amazing book because it's about mindset. And so he

talks, even though the name soundtracks is so good, because

basically what he says in the book is that we all have

soundtracks in our mind, just like you know, on your on your

on your iPod. on your iPad, you've got a soundtrack.

Spotify, you got your soundtracks in your brain you

have a soundtrack to and so when he teaches people is to notice

what your soundtrack is, most of the time it's negative. And so

how do you change your soundtrack? Oh, it's an I really

recommend

the book. It's an excellent soundtrack. Next.

Okay, that sounds really cool. So yes, I bought a novel not

long ago because I thought this I'd seen someone in 60 minutes

or CBS Sunday Morning and that the author and I thought it

looked really interesting. And I think it's called chemistry

lessons or something like that anyway, but now I'm doomed

because I've read like three pages, and it's now on Apple TV,

it's an eight part series or something like that on Apple TV.

So now I'm doing because I'm gonna have to watch that. And

I'll never read the book, because I'll never get the book

read fast enough, before it's gone. So I know crazy. It's an

interesting story about a woman in the 50s. And she was a

chemistry teacher. And I think it moves into, you know, maybe

she does a TV show or something? I don't know. It's I haven't

read it, obviously. But it looked interesting. And Brie

Larson is playing the character. And it's, you know, it'll be a

period piece in the 50s. And I kind of like that. So, yes, but

I mostly read more business books and things like that as

well. But okay, so you said you do the you do at all? Do you do

TV? And like, Are you a Netflix kind of person? Or do you watch

fiction on? On there? You're watching like fiction?

Yeah, I like fiction. I like to have a break

from, like, my brain needs a break. You know, I've got

teenage boys and basket basketball practice and meals

that they consume that need to be prepared. I don't know why

children constantly need to eat. But that's another story. Three

Meals a Day seems like a lot. So yeah, I like to have my chill

time and watch Netflix.

I'm glad to hear that. All right. And last

question is second to last on line last second glass. My

favorite word is curiosity. And my question for you is two part

one. Do you believe that curiosity is innate, or learned?

And second part, what are you most curious about these days?

So curiosity is an important part of

coaching. And curiosity is something that I teach clients

all the time to find that when I do I often do the DISC profile

with people, which is a tool that assesses their work style,

some work styles, some people are naturally more curious. And

there's tools like Edward de Bono, I'm not sure if you're

familiar with Edward de Bono, he does thinking hats and lateral

thinking tools. And he teaches people how to be more curious by

leveraging tools. So I do think some people are innately more

curious. And I believe it's a skill you can develop. What am I

curious about these days? I mean, from the from the

perspective of leadership, I'm curious how really around the

impact of the pandemic and the people not being in the office

together. I'm super curious about what the impact of that is

going to be in a year or two from now, when we've had so many

people, you know, who were 2021 2223, who started the work,

their own work experience from home. And so I'm just super

curious to see how that's going to translate into the change of

corporate culture and how we need to develop people and, like

curious about. Yeah, I

think that's really, it will be really

interesting. And hopefully, it'll be positive, but we won't

know for a couple of years yet. Right. So last question. As a

leadership coach, and someone who has been in the trenches,

and has been teaching us been coaching in this leadership

field for a long time, what would your best piece of wisdom

be for my audience who really mostly are small business

owners, entrepreneurs, not so much corporate, but leadership

is so important still in? You know, Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, I would say, be prepared. A lot of

leaders wing things. And I would say, wing it less, and be

prepared more. A couple of examples would be come to your

meetings with agendas. When you need to give feedback, write it

down. Think about it in advance. When you're onboarding someone

have a plan to onboard them. When you wake up in the morning,

do your to do list. I mean, these are just really simple

things that if you do them if you you know, when you think

about time management, time management is not actually time

management, because nobody can stop the clock. It's self

management. It's how I manage myself in relation to the time

that I have And so that's why I think being prepared is so

critical for leadership. Whether you're leading a huge team or a

small team. I

think that's great advice. Thank you so much.

Thank you for being here. And I think I have all your info where

people can find you mosaic pd.com. Yes. Your mosaic

of development. So you can go into

Google and type in mosaic people development or mosaic pd.com.

That works to

perfect. So thank you so much for being here.

Thank you to my audience again for listening. If you like what

you heard, please go and seek out of Vanessa's work in on her

website and on LinkedIn Of course, and remember to stay

connected and be remembered