Today I'm talking with Iain Moore from BGreater Shoes. BGreater Shoes design and sell affordable kids foot friendly shoes which are designed to allow children’s feet to grow, develop and move more naturally than most high street brands, whilst importantly looking after parents wallets and time.

Iain and I discussed why he set up BGreater Shoes, and the particular challenges of designing and manufacturing shoes. Iain explained what barefoot shoes are, how they differ from normal shoes, and the benefits to children’s health and development. From how a Dragon’s Den episode inspired him to set up his own business, to how to develop a marketing strategy for a product people don’t know they need, it is a great episode with lots of thoughtful advice and suggestions.

Listen in to hear Iain share:

• An introduction to herself and her business (01:14)
• What inspired him to start BGreater Shoes (01:24)
• What barefoot shoes are, and how they differ from regular shoes (03:53)
• The detrimental impact some shoes can have on feet and the body (05:23)
• The process of designing and creating the shoes (09:11)
• Working with a freelance designer (11:05)
• Getting the shoes manufactured (14:32)
• Ensuring that the production costs were kept down so that the shoes are affordable (15:35)
• The importance of mindset, and positivity in making his business successful (17:56)
• Working with parents and children to get feedback on the shoes (20:07)
• The challenges of educating people as to the benefit of barefoot shoes when they have not heard of them (23:48)
• Making your customers lives as simple as possible (27:10)
• Iain’s own children’s feedback on the shoes (31:01)
• Ensuring shoe sizing is correct (32:40)
• His number one piece of advice for other product creators (42:50)

USEFUL RESOURCES:

BGreater Shoes Website

BGreater Shoes Twitter

BGreater Shoes Facebook

BGreater Shoes Instagram

Iain Moore Linked In

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Welcome to the Bring Your Product Ideas to Life podcast.

This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling

products, or if you'd like to create your own product to sell.

I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert.

Every week I share friendly, practical advice, as well as inspirational

stories from small businesses.

Let's get started.

Today I'm talking with Iain Moore from B Greater Shoes.

B Greater Shoes designs and sell affordable kids foot friendly shoes,

which are designed to allow our children's feet to grow, develop,

and move more naturally than most high street brands, while importantly

looking after parents' wallets and time.

So, Ian and I spoke a lot about shoes, as as you might have guessed.

Um, and we also spoke about what barefoot shoes mean.

Why this is important for children, as well as a lot about the process

of designing a a children's shoe.

I really hope you enjoyed this conversation with Ian.

As always, I think there's so much you'll be able to take away from it,

and I would love to introduce you.

So, hi Ian.

Thank you so much for being here.

Hi, how are you doing?

Really good.

Thank you.

Very excited to talk to you today.

Can we start by you please give an introduction to yourself and

your business and what you sell.

Okay.

I'm Iain Moore.

I am the founder of B Greater Limited, and we make affordable kids barefoot shoes.

Amazing.

Thank you.

So let's start right at the beginning, Iain, with what inspired

you to create barefoot kids shoes?

What was, what was kind of the catalyst for you thinking, okay, this is a

business that, that I'm going to start?

So it's a bit of a long, long answer really.

But I'd say the shortest way is I was the customer.

And there was, there was nothing there in my budget.

Basically, I was buying barefoot shoes for my children.

And the main sort of household brand, if you like, is, uh, Vivo Barefoot, who

they do fantastic things, uh, with shoes.

They have absolutely paved the way with sort of spreading work

the word about barefoot shoes.

But they, they're, they're a bit above my price point.

I mean, the, the average sort of starting price for some of the children's shoes

is about 75 pounds, which I think is out of a lot of people's budget.

Absolutely.

And especially as, you know, anyone with kids know their feet change

and grow so quickly that you can be buying new shoes on like a, not

a monthly basis, but it, you know, if it's early, can feel like that.

So yeah, I would say that's beyond a, a lot of people's budgets.

Yeah, definitely.

So it was one of the things which we thought was important was, you know,

why we are focusing on affordable kids shoes and not the adult.

One, there's already a lot of people doing adult shoes, but also I do

think that, you know, we should spend a bit more on shoes for adults, have

fewer pairs, but look after them and they should last us a good few years.

Whereas, you know, with the best will in the world, you can say to your five

year old, oh, these are some new shoes.

And look after them when you go to school and the chances are they are going

to come back and they've been pretty battered no matter what you say to them.

So I don't really see, for a lot of people that spending 75 pounds ish on a,

a pair of shoes is really a viable option.

So I wanted to create something, uh, a lot better than what I could find,

which was out there and I had, I'd always had problems with my feet as a

kid growing up and was kind of put in that standard thing of, you know, go to

Clarks, get your feet measured, you need more support, you need put your feet

in the right place, and all of this.

I ended up even having to had, uh, have orthotics put in my shoes

and it never fixed the problem.

Which then led me onto Barefoot Shoes and then ended up wanting, you know,

the best foot health for my children.

Which then how I, why I started then getting them barefoot shoes.

Thank you.

And I'm going to go a little bit even further back if that's okay.

So would you mind telling us, well, firstly, what barefoot shoes are for

anyone who, who hasn't heard of them?

And then second, secondly, what the difference is between a

barefoot shoe and a regular shoe.

Just so people get an idea of why it was that you were so keen for your

children to be wearing barefoot shoes.

Yeah.

Cool.

So I'd say there's three main sort of points with, uh, a barefoot shoe is

one, you have a nice wide toe box so that the toes can, you know, wiggle and

they've got room to grow in, you know, a more natural shape and things like that

rather than, you know, ended up growing so that they end up looking like, uh,

the shoes that they're actually sort of wearing throughout their childhood.

The other point is that it's a z what's called a zero drop shoe,

so that the height at the toes and the heels is the same height, so

you don't have any elevated heel.

And they should also be a really thin and flexible sole.

So you can get that sensory feedback from, from the ground as you're walking.

You know, basically wearing, you know, is the, the, the more is less kind of

concept, if you like, of, of, of shoes.

Thank you.

See, I've worn barefoot trainers for running for quite a long time, um,

because I read about the advantages of you being able to feel the floor

underneath your feet and yeah, and all of that kind of thing.

I'll be honest, I've never considered it for sort of day to

day walking around, which sounds crazy when you think about it.

Yeah.

Um, I've saw, I was, remember I was looking on your Instagram and I saw

this really shocking image and I'm going to recommend, we're going to

link your Instagram in the show notes.

I recommend everyone goes to show it with like a issue where you could see a

child's foot in bird, a regular shoe and then a child, but inside a barefoot shoe.

And I was really quite shocked at how compressed particularly the toe

area is in a sort of regular shoe.

That was quite shocking to me.

Yeah, I mean, that, that image is, you know, just the, the,

um, it's a picture of my son's feet.

It was a pair of shoes which we had, which we'd bought from a, a local

shop and yeah, just a, a pair of ours.

And we cut out the, the inside, took a photo and I think, you know, what's that?

You know, picture paints a thousand words.

Um, and all of that stuff.

Um, I mean, I think everyone would agree that bad footwear can damage feet.

I, you know, I think that's, you know, a lot of people would agree

with that, but it's then trying to work out and people don't fully agree

on then what is good for your feet.

If, if, you know, if we know that bad shoes hurt your feet,

then what is the good option?

And that's where I think a lot of people, and you know, more people

are realizing actually sort of barefoot shoes are the way forwards.

I would say there with some physios and you know, sort of chiropractors

and doctors, there can be a bit of a split about whether barefoot

shoes are a good thing or not.

But generally that discussion is always around adults because they'll say,

you know, for example, like yourself, you know, you, you've spent sort of

20, 30, 40 years or you know, whatever work wore wearing traditional shoes,

and then suddenly, you know, in your thirties or or whatever you, you then

decide, oh, actually, you know, I, I've, like you, you know yourself.

I've read this article, I'm going to start running in barefoot shoes.

Some, you know, physios and chiropractors might say that actually that could end up

causing more problems than it could fix.

And my whole belief around this is why are we adapting?

Of wearing shoes, which put our feet in unnatural positions.

Why not just let children's feet grow, as I'm sure most parents

would want, their children's grow is being healthy and unrestricted.

Um, and that's, that's kind of what we do.

And now of interesting.

And I will move on to talk more about creating your shoes in a minute, but

I'm just, I just out of interest, do you wearing, or do you know whether

wearing shoes that are perhaps a bit restrictive, whether it has any impact

on anything other than your feet?

So I can imagine it could potentially impact maybe your posture or your spine.

I, I don't, I don't know this, I'm just thinking.

Definitely.

I mean, oh, no, no, no.

I mean it.

Um, your feet are the, you know, foundations, you

know, to your, to your body.

And if there's something wrong with the foundations, you know, with your

house, then everything, you know, cracks are going to appear everywhere else.

So it'll all just go up that kinetic chain.

It'll, you know, you could then end up with, you know, problems

with your ankles, your knees, your hips, your spine, the lot.

Um, not, I, I will also be honest with people.

You know, I love barefoot shoes.

I'm obviously a big advocate, but I'm not trying to say that it is a panacea that,

you know, if you wear bare shoes, barefoot shoes, it is going to stop you getting

any knee problems or any back problems.

You know, I'm actually trying to be really honest, as a brand, we do think

that there's benefits, maybe not for everyone, but the majority of people,

I think our shoes will be beneficial.

But yeah, they, it can cause all sorts of problems.

Like you said, not just your, not just with your feet.

Thank you and I, that's really good context and, and I appreciate

you saying that you're not sort of wanting to put misinformation out there.

But yeah, so thank you for EX for explaining all of that as well.

So I'd like to talk now if that's okay, Iain, about the process of actually

designing and creating your shoes.

Because I imagine there's lots that goes on between going, actually,

I can't find what I'm looking for.

I'm going to create my own, to actually having a product ready to sell.

So should we start at the beginning when you decided that you were going

to create your own range and talk us through, um, sort of how you got started,

I think is a good place to start.

Yeah, that's fine.

So I'd say how it all kind of started in when, you know, that little seed ended

or that last bit kind of clicked and I thought, right, I'm actually going to

do this as a business because I, things have been sort of growing subtly in my

head, but it was, um, actually watching Dragons' Den one evening and I just,

you know, shouted at the TV one of many times and said, oh, I've got an idea.

How about someone actually makes some affordable shoes, which are

good for children's feet for once?

But that idea just didn't go, it just lingered.

And I kept coming back to it and, and then I thought, right, well what can I do?

How do I go about doing this because I've got no idea about shoes or footwear.

I was in the Army for 10 years, so I've got no experience in, in sort

of business or anything like this.

So I literally started, I went online, I downloaded the Dragons'

Den, uh, application pack in there.

It says, you know, have you got a business plan?

I was like, that's a good point.

I need a business plan.

So I forgot about, I, you know, parked the whole Dragons' Den idea and thought,

right, let's get a business plan.

So my first step was building a good business plan.

Um, I, I did that.

Um, I, you know, sort of looked at the, the markets out there, what there was on,

you know, um, what there was available.

Looked at all my competitors.

And then just slowly started developing that kind of the business

plan, if you like, from that side.

Then the actual trying to develop a shoe.

I've, I went out and I, uh, I found some freelance shoe designers.

Um, I had a number of meetings with them.

Tried to narrow down, you know, who, who I wanted to work with

because I knew this was going to be an ongoing thing and I wanted a

good sort of personal relationship.

I wanted someone who really bought into what I was doing and why I was doing it.

I thought that was really important for me.

Yeah, that makes absolutely sense.

As you say, it is a long-term relationship, whether that's

with a manufacturer, designer.

By the way, I didn't know you, there were free freelance shoe designers.

That's really interesting.

I suppose it makes sense that there would be, because I guess very

few people have that skillset.

So that makes total sense.

So once you found someone that you were happy to work with, I guess, was it a

sort of a collaborative thing of you explaining what you wanted and then

translating that into actual designs?

Yeah, very much so.

So to start off with, I mean, it was brilliant.

I mean, Dan, who's my freelance designer, like if it wasn't for

for him, I definitely wouldn't be sort of where I am now.

So, like I said, right, this is sort of my price point, this is my target audience.

And then his thing was, he then said, right, you know, come back to

me with images, you know, go online, you know, sort of just find images.

What do you like, what don't you like?

Um, it doesn't have to be barefoot shoes, it can just be,

you know, traditional shoes.

But we, you know, they wanted to get an idea of what styles and

things like that we were after.

Um, I then gave them a bit of a brief, so I think quite a few of the barefoot

shoes out there can look a little bit quirky without trying to say it, without

trying to shoot myself in the foot as a, as a brand beca and, you know,

um, but yeah, some, some of the shoes out there aren't the type of shoes

which I would really choose to wear.

I, I do prefer the more sort of traditional, regular shoe look.

And that's what what I said I wanted.

I basically said to him, look, I want a shoe, which looks very much like one you

could pick up in, you know, uh, any sports shop or, um, Clarks or anything like

that, but just has these added benefits.

I want something which, you know, no kids are going to get bullied for, or anyone's

going to take them Mick because they look like clown shoes or anything like that.

So I sent them all these photos.

They came up with some designs, sent them back.

And I just kind of said, yes, I kind of like this.

I don't like that one.

How about you put a bit of this on, a bit of there and you know, we

just kind of built it through that way and it was very collaborative.

That's brilliant.

And so then you ended up, I guess, with some designs.

How many designs did you start off with?

Um, I'm trying to think.

I think with the shoes and with the trainers, I think we had about five

designs roughly of each, let's say, and then we sort of whittled it down

and then basically being cost effective we've launched with one style of trainer,

but do we then have, I think five different colourways of that trainer.

So, you know, by tweaking a few little bits, they do like, look like different

trainers, but actually they are just one design because otherwise, you

know, it's going to really bump up the costs of manufacturer and everything

you're going to need different.

Um, I got to pay for more knives to be made to cut the materials

and everything like this.

So, you know, I just went for one design and different colourway.

That makes total sense.

So let's talk a little bit about the manufacturing then.

Um, so once you have your designs, because I guess having designs on paper

is one thing, but then there's actually translating that into a shoe, checking

that they look as you expect, feel as you expect they fit, and you have to

find a manufacturer to do all of this.

So let's talk a bit about that please.

Where did you start with looking for someone to manufacture your shoes?

So I'll be honest, this is also where I completely,

uh, landed on my feet here.

So the freelance designer who I worked with, um, he had a,

um, I guess a business partner.

I was in China, so they.

Themselves, you know, they work collaboratively and you know,

instantly said, look, you can, there are other factories out there, but

at your price points, you know, I recommend that we go to China.

You know, I've got a member of staff out there.

And, um, you know, we can start getting samples made and everything like that.

So I was, I was really lucky actually.

Um, they did all of that for me.

And another thing which was really good with that was my

key thing was affordability.

Now, initially I had said I kind of wanted it sort of sub 30 pounds or, you

know, sort of high twentys to about 30, but in the end, to make something, which

was with, when you've taken shippings and shipping charges and everything

else to make so a quality product I, I really wasn't able to do that.

So we've had to bump it up slightly.

So our trainers are 35 pounds, but when we went through the whole

design process, everything was about, um, keeping them affordable.

So what was good with working with that was he basically said, look, I can be

here with you every step of the way, so you give us a price point and we

can work back from there really with the factory, and we can develop over

time and we can adjust the design.

Whereas if I'd gone with some of the other freelance designers who I

was talking to, they basically were just giving me a design and said,

that's fine, you know, off you go, go and find your, your factories.

Now you could then take that design to a factory and they go, yeah, we can build

this, but it's going to cost, you know, $50 a unit or something, rather than,

uh, you know, what we were looking for.

So it was really good actually, that Dan sort of had this contact.

That's such a good point.

And I, I can totally see that you, I think you actually, the way you've described

it to me, I'm thinking actually that's almost essential because you're right.

If you, if the designer doesn't have a good understanding of the

production process, they could very well design you something that you

say that's way over your budget.

Um, not, you know, not on purpose, but I guess if they don't really

know, have a sense of how much things cost and what materials are.

And so it sounds like your designer also had some sort of understanding of, how

shoes are produced or at least, you know, was in contact with somebody who did.

Oh, definitely.

I mean, he, he's been across to the factories, you know,

numerous times over the years.

I mean, uh, he's been in the footwear industry for sort of over 20 years, so he,

he, you know, well, children's footwear.

Not really, he does some adults, but his, his focus has always been on children's.

So yeah, he know, he knows the whole process and you know, how he

can shave a bit of money off and, and all these different things.

Well, that sounds invaluable.

Yeah, no, it definitely if like, you know, I, I've said to him, um,

before, if it wasn't for him, you know, I definitely wouldn't be where I am now.

Isn't it good when people just come into your

life at just the right time?

That's amazing.

Yeah.

Um, it, it really was helpful, you know, um, there's been a number of

cases like that when things have, you know, kind of gone well for me.

But then it's also tricky because I, in some ways with this, I've

said, you know, I've said to people that I've been really lucky.

But I've actually, years ago, listened to a podcast, actually, I'm sure.

I, um, they were talking about a, a study which they did, about people who

believed that they were lucky and people who felt that they were sort of unlucky

and, and things just never really worked for them or turned out well for them.

I'm sure that they sort of basically sent them into this room for like a

meet and greet, and the people who said that they were lucky basically

went in, got a coffee and just started mingling and talking to people.

And then they then found that the people who then said that generally they find

themselves unlucky and things just don't work out for them, are the people who kind

of got a coffee, stood to the side and use their phone and sort of heads down and

didn't really start those conversations and I, I've definitely you know, the more

I've been doing this, I definitely see that that's one thing which has helped me

is just conversations with people, asking people what they do and, and just really

trying to understand it and talking, you know, honestly about what I do.

And then, you know, I mean, I've had some, some of the dads from my son's school

have helped me out with the business plan and stuff because, you know, I was

talking to them and about honestly what I was doing and, you know, I had no

experience whatsoever about running or starting my own business and just that

little bit of vulnerability, they kind of went, well look, you know, I, I'm no

guru, but bring us your business plan.

You know, I did mine 10, 20 years ago and I'll have a look at for you.

Um, but it was just because I started that conversation.

That's how it happened.

That's really good, isn't it?

I think you are right.

I think if you're open to help and I, I think it's about being open, isn't it?

If you think if you're open, then more comes along.

I don't mean that in we were waiting, but I just think in general, I

think if you're, like you say you're willing to talk to people or may maybe

even ask for help as well, I think.

Yeah.

Um, people don't always know that you need it if you, you know, if you, if you're

not talking about it and telling people.

So I, I'd love to know as well, so when, as well as talking to people

about, you know, your, your business, did you get other people involved?

I'm thinking when you had started, you know, you got to the sampling

stage, were you talking to other people about what they wanted from

this shoe or what they thought of the designs or, or anything like that?

So I did, so initially when I first, I guess, started coming up

with, uh, developing the ideas of the shoes, I wanted to make sure that what I

thought, I guess was objectively correct.

So I actually did a, um, oh, what do you bloody call it?

Not a quiz, uh, survey.

So I did a survey.

And I put it out on social media.

And because I was part of some of the barefoot shoe groups, you know, I just

did a little post and just said, look, I'm, this is what I'm looking at doing.

If anyone's got some time, could you please com uh, complete this survey.

So I had loads of people complete the survey, which told me, you

know, sort of what was important to them when buying shoes.

Who makes the decisions, the price points, you know, when buying

some shoes, you know, what's the highest priority and you know, like

what style of shoes would you get?

And, and there the clear favorite was trainers, school shoes, and

wellies, um, for the children.

Then when we went through the design process, we started getting the, the, the

samples, you know, I basically, I started showing those to, to people who I knew,

sort of friends and things like that.

And basically just said like, you know, what do you think of this?

What do you think of the style?

And I just had a few people who were close to me who, um, I got a bit

of advice from and, and yeah, that, you know, that, that worked wonder.

That's brilliant and I, I think it's, that's great to hear

because I, and it's good that you were part of those barefoot communities as

well because it sounds like they're the ideal people to get feedback from because

I'm assuming that people who are part of those communities who have children are

therefore going to be very interested in these shoes for their children.

Yeah.

Although again, maybe I have to be, be a bit careful what I say.

With the barefoot community, I guess they're, the barefoot community, are

really aware of the benefits of the shoes and they've like fully bought into

what they want from a barefoot shoe.

And then what I have found was some of the parents from the barefoot community,

if you like, were, I don't want to say really picky, but they, you know, they

wanted far more than what I was able to deliver, I guess, at my price points.

While some of them are a really good community and, and you know, they sort

of like what I was doing and they're kind of backing me, I think some of them are

actually more willing to pay, you know, a higher price point to get the, the

perfect barefoot shoe, which, you know, I'm, I'm not able, I can't create a shoe

which is going to fit every single child and every single child's style of foot.

So some of the barefoot community will, you know, kind of look across

all the brands and they'll kind of go, okay, my child has got skinny

feet, but got a high end step.

Or they've got, you know, really wide feet and a narrow heel or, or, what's that?

And I just can't, I couldn't design a shoe which is going to fit every single foot.

So actually some of that barefoot community, they really like

finding the, the ideal shoe.

My ultimate goal, I guess, is actually trying to convert the parents who don't

know anything about barefoot shoes or know limited amounts about barefoot shoes.

That that's, that's my kind of goal.

That's really interesting.

I was just, as you were talking, that was going to be my next question

was that, is your audience actually your ideal customers, actually the

people who are buying shoes for their children and just don't realize

the benefits of barefoot shoes?

Well, I guess, uh, and I'd love to know as well, do you think that that's

a harder sell because they don't know about the benefits of barefoot

shoes, or is it just as tricky?

You know, as if you were targeting the barefoot community who have lots of

specific requirements of their shoes or it's possibly be, it's possibly the same,

but yeah, I guess the actual question probably is, so how are you finding

sort of marketing something to people that they perhaps don't yet know they

need and need a bit of education on?

That's probably a better question.

I'll be honest.

Finding it very tricky.

Um, it definitely hasn't gone exactly the way I would've liked.

I am struggling to kind of get my message out there a little bit.

Um, because it's, it's not sort of short form information, really, you know,

two minutes of information and, you know, I could chat to her parents and

they, uh, just basically go, yep, give, you know, here's my money, take it.

You know, I want your shoes.

When you kind of tell someone about the, you know, the benefits of barefoot

shoes, nor to some degree, you know, you look at a bit of common sense and

why would you, you know, you look at your child's feet when they're born.

And you know, the baby shoes are pretty much barefoot shoes.

Why then, you know, do we start getting this narrow pointy two toe box about,

you know, two or three years old?

You know, and then why is it that so many women, you know, more

so later in life that then have bunions and things like that?

You know, it is, I think pretty much people would agree that a lot of the

bunions and stuff will come from, you know, high heels and being in

pointy shoes and stuff like that.

And your, your foot just develops and grows like that.

I'm trying to make parents' lives easier with what we do as a business.

And I'm also just trying to offer them something, which I

think actually is a, you know, we are at lower price than Clarks.

And I would say, you know, and we have then the, these, uh, sort of the benefits

if you like, of, of, you know, sort of health benefits or benefit shoes.

I'm not surprised actually that you said it was a bit of a challenge.

Because I think whenever you're doing something that's a bit unique, it

there is a bit of education involved and it does take a little bit longer.

I agree with you though.

The fact that your shoes are cheaper than Clarks and cheaper than some of the other

High Street stores is probably a big advantage because I think if you were.

If you were perhaps creating barefoot shoes to target may maybe, you know,

the hardcore barefoot community and therefore shoes that were much higher,

more niche, but much higher priced.

Yeah.

Um, I think that would be a much trickier sell to, you know, most parents who just

was say, who want the best for their children, but also want affordable shoes.

Yeah.

So I guess it sounds, so, it sounds like for the market you are aiming

at, it sounds like you've put loads of thought into making sure the price

point is right and the, you know, and the shoes are as good as they can be.

Yeah, definitely.

So that's what, and also I, you know, my wife and I, obviously

parents, and so we started.

Well, part of the reason we did this, or, or what we wanted as well

was make parents' lives easier.

So, you know, how can you do that?

I mean, everyone hates that battle.

I mean, I remember as a kid with my mother, you know, being dragged

into Clark's shoes and, you know, there's just kids running, you know,

running wild and, and stuff like that.

And, you know, it was the sort of the tradition that you go

in, you get your feet measured and, and go and get your shoes.

People's lives are so busy at the moment.

So one of the things which we offer is you can go to our

website and buy a foot measurer.

We call it our freeish foot measurer.

So you can buy one, three pounds, 50, and then you get three pounds 50

deducted off your first order of shoes.

So it's basically a free foot measurer.

So then you have it at home, so then you can keep measuring your kids' feet

and you can pass it on or whatever it might be, but you don't have to

go into that battle of trying to find time, trying to drag your kids in, you

know, to go and get your school shoes.

You can order one, it comes home, measure your kids' feet, order

online, and a few days later you've got our shoes through the door.

Just trying to make those parents' lives easier.

That's such a good idea because I don't know who hates shoe

shopping more me or my kids if I'm honest.

And as you say though, is one of those things at the moment you

have to do in the shop because you don't know what size feet they are.

Yeah.

Um, so I think that's brilliant because, I mean, let's face it, a

lot of us nowadays are buying online.

It's much easier to buy online.

But kids' shoes is the thing that usually you can't unless you're

prepared to buy an awful lot of shoes and send loads of them back.

And actually, I always feel that I want to have my kids' feet measured

properly and know their feet are fitted in the shoes properly.

Because, you know, you don't want them walking round in shoes that are

a bit tight or going to pinch on a certain point or something like that.

So, and if you just, you know, if, if the way you're buying them is by

ordering lots of pairs and trying them on and crossing your fingers

that something's going to fit.

Yeah, that's definitely where you can end up.

Yeah.

Uh, and also I think one of the things which is quite good with our shoes at

least, is I'll say the majority of, or the most, most kids absolutely love

our shoes because they are so much, you know, they're thinner, they're flexible,

and the foot can move more naturally.

Kids love them.

You know, I had, uh, you know, somewhat jokingly, but I had sort

of complaints when we launched the school shoes initially, and

we didn't have the trainers out.

Like I had joking complaints from parents, you know, demanding that

I, I released my trainer sooner because their kids refused to wear

their own trainers at the weekends.

They would only wear their school shoes because they were the barefoot shoes.

And they just found them more comfortable and they, they were asking to go to

the park in them, things like that.

They just, they're like, no, you know, I don't like putting my trainers on now.

That's so interesting, isn't it?

That's, that's really interesting that the kids themselves could notice such a

big difference because I wasn't sure if it was something where we know it's better,

but actually for the child that, you know, there isn't a load of difference.

So I.

Really, I'm quite blown away by the fact that the kids are noticing

that much difference in the, in the way their shoes feel on their feet.

Yeah.

It, it is really noticeable.

The kids love them and yeah, they, they just get that, I think part of

it is they get the sensory feedback.

You know, if you are in, you know, shoes from the, you know, whatever

shop it might be, they have, you know, a huge, chunky sole on them.

And they just don't get that sensory feedback from, you know,

from the ground or anything.

And then, you know, you then kind of wonder, well, why, you know, you stick

shoes on your kid and they're just stumbling over and they keep tripping up

when they're learning to walk and stuff.

And you're like, well, you know, actually, is it, is it

because they're learning to walk?

Or, it's actually more of it because I've now stuck these, you know, planks

on the bottom of their feet, which, which then don't move to their body

and they can't really feel the ground.

So you're, you know, basically walking around in moon boots.

Yeah, that ma makes, that makes so much sense.

And what do your kids think of your shoes?

I'm, I'm interested.

Do they love them?

Uh, yeah.

They, yeah, they, they love them.

And I , I'll be honest, my, my daughter's feet are actually

one size too small for my shoes.

But, um, yeah, I, I basically just refused to get to get her some different ones.

So I stuck her in some of my shoes, the size, when they were a size too big.

But she loves them.

She liked wearing them.

She, she loves, like, there's, um, so with us, we've got a, a smiley face,

like in the, uh, what would you call it?

Like, um, basically where your heel goes, but it's cut in half.

So if you put your shoes together, the children can see an orange, smiley

face so they can just start to getting that independence of trying to put, of

getting their shoes on the right feet.

Because the amount of times when I've been trying to get out the door

with my son bef, you know, before he had my shoes and he was like,

oh daddy, is this the right way?

Is this the right way?

Or you go to the park or something, he's saying, but your feet are hurting.

You have a look.

And he's got banana feet.

He's got the shoes on the wrong side.

So again, just trying to help parents to help.

Well, you've got this sort of smiley face cut in half, so then kids can just kind

of learn that independence of getting their own shoes on before they really

start to grasp what left and right means.

So yeah, she, she really likes doing that.

Smiley.

That's so clever because you're right.

That is a, that is a massive challenge.

And actually sometimes if, when you are, even as an adult, when you're

looking at them quickly it's hard to sort of, sometimes you have to pick

them up to work out which one goes, well I do, to work out which one goes

on which feet unless it's very obvious.

So yeah, that's a really good idea.

I haven't seen that anywhere.

Um, and so when you had, it's just going to go back just very briefly, back to

the sort of the, the production side.

So once you had samples produced were you trying them on your kids and other

kids to see how they fit and how, I'm just curious in how that works, because

I guess that that's with any sort of clothing or, or sort of, and footwear,

it must be a minefield to sort of make sure that they're, the sizing is right.

So how does, how does that work?

Um, so, um, so the sizing was to start off with, was done by

my shoe designer because there are.

You know, he, he knows all of that if you like.

Um, so he dealt with the sizes and, and then we had the, um, samples made once the

samples were made and we'd sign those off.

We then had, um, wear testing samples made and fit testing samples.

So then they all got sent to the UK.

We sent them off to a, um, I don't know what you'd actually classify

as, I guess a, just a, a shoe fitter.

So it is a, this lady's job who is just, she gets sent shoes from different brands

and things and, and you know, just tries on different kids' feet and, and make

sure that they sort of fit, you know, the average sort of kids and they won't rub

anywhere or anything once it's past that.

Um, we then sent out the wear testers to, well to people everywhere.

I had some people up here, I had some people down from where the, the freelance

shoe designer was, uh, where Dan was.

So we just sent them out to local parents, just did the post on social media and

just sort of said, look, we've, we've, you know, got these shoes and does anyone,

you know, want to want a free pair of, well, not a free pair, but basically, you

know, because we had to get them back.

But, um, basically just said, look, you know, would, would anyone like

to be involved in, in this process?

And, you know, have our shoes for I think probably eight to 12 weeks.

I think they had to wear them, then they sent them back and then, you

know, little questionnaire, you know, how did the kids find them?

Did they complain about, you know, it rubbing anywhere when you looked at their

feet, you know, did they get any blisters?

And then we can inspect the shoes as well, see how it, they're wearing,

um, and everything like that.

And yeah, so we went through all that process and yeah, we actually ended up

with more, far more requests, a lot more requests actually for the shoes than

the number of wear pairs, which we had.

As soon as we kind of put this thing out on, um, some of the parent

groups and basically said, this is, you know, this is what our shoes

do, this is what we're looking at.

Does anyone want them?

Parents went crazy for them.

The difficulty is, in, you know, the Facebook groups or the, you know, buy,

swap, sell and or whatever it might be.

Or, you know, mum's notice boards and stuff like that

on the mum's notice boards.

You can't, um, sort of self-publish.

I, sorry, I can't self advertise, so I can't go on to mum's groups

and basically spam them and go, oh look, this is what our shoes do.

This is what they're, you know, this is how good they are for your

kids' feet, and so on and so forth.

We can't do that, but when we put a post, just saying like, we need some wear

testers, which we were allowed to do.

Everyone loved the idea.

That's really good.

And I think, I guess even though you weren't able to put a past

out and say, this is, you know, we're selling these shoes.

Yeah.

Hopefully you still got some good publicity from that post and also

from the people that then tried the shoes and and loved them.

Oh, definitely.

We had, uh, a good amount of return custom from the people with the wear testers.

I mean, it kind of a little bit out of sort of thin air, but I think

you'd probably be looking at somewhere around 60 to 80% of the people who

you know, did the wear testers, I'd say, and probably more the higher end.

They've then all come back and purchased our shoes.

So, you know, I, I think that speaks volumes.

That really does.

And I think that's, that's so smart as well because, you know, we were

talking earlier about how it's hard to sort of, not convert people, but you

know, to explain to people why they might want to consider barefoot shoes.

Um, and it sounds like by actually trying the shoes, they

kind of spoke for themselves.

Yeah.

So also some of what I've been trying to do is when I've been doing some marketing,

I've actually always been trying to move away from calling them barefoot shoes.

I'm more sort of been trying to sort of use the words of like they're

foot friendly or something like that.

And then maybe later on down the line, bringing in this sort of comment of

barefoot shoes because people might not either understand what barefoot

shoes are or they might, you know, to have heard some misinformation

about it or whatever it might be.

So I just want to make sure that, you know, parents have the sort

of best information and they just understand it a bit clearer.

And if you say, oh, they're, they're foot friendly, they're, you know,

they're good for your kids' feet.

I think parents then kind of go, okay, tell me, tell me more.

That makes real sense.

I think you're, I think you're right.

And that's really smart as well because I think foot friendly is something

that we all want for our kids.

And as I said, coming back to that graphic, which is the one that kind

of really got my attention, sort of, nobody wants to think their

kids' toes have all squished up.

Shoes that are too tight, you know, if it feels like that,

it just makes total sense.

But you're right, when you think of barefoot shoes, I think also some people

who do know about them might have other, you know, might have other views because

they might think of them as being, you know, like those flashy running

trainers I was talking about earlier.

Or they might think it's you know, it's not something for children or,

I think it's, it's hard, isn't it?

So I think you're right.

Fit friend.

That's really smart actually.

So to, to kind of pitch them in that way.

Yeah.

Um, cause I know, cause there will also be people actually said who

have sort of a, a poor perception of barefoot shoes for various reasons.

Oh, definitely.

I mean, years ago was, I say ye uh, was, I want to say somewhere

around 2010, 2012, there was a book which came out called Born to Run.

And lots of runners read it and they, you know, thought, wow, this is basically

about running barefoot and things.

And they're like, brilliant.

I need this.

I'm going to go out and buy some barefoot shoes.

I'm going to start running in barefoot shoes.

And they basically go from running a normal trainers to barefoot

shoes within like six weeks or something, and like a year later.

Um, they end up, you know, their knees are knackered or you know, something

somewhere has gone wrong and they end up going, well, you know, it's,

it's because of barefoot shoes.

They've gone back to normal sort of running shoes if you like, but

again, that's because you've adapted, you know, everything is adapted to

wearing sort of traditional shoes like the, the whole running gate,

you know, running with a, a heel.

Which, you know, isn't such a natural way to run really.

If you, if you run barefoot, you know, everyone almost, you know, majority

of people just automatically change to a midfoot slash four foot, four

foot strike because otherwise it, you know, jars your whole body trying to

run barefoot, you know, with a heel strike it, it sort of jolts you.

So people automatically change to, to, you know, sort of barefoot gate when

they run without anything like them.

We, we, we just don't want people to kind of get converted into the, you

know, traditional shoes, which can be harmful for, for people's feet.

Yeah.

And I'm actually.

A little bit embarrassed to tell you that that book is the reason I

started wearing barefoot trainers.

Although I was fairly sensible, I think as in I went for a shoe

that wasn't completely barefoot.

Um, back then, I think you're right, it was maybe 10 years ago, something like

that, you could sort of get varying degrees of padding, you know, so you

could gradually you know, you could go sort of slightly less cushioned

and sort of work your way down, which was the approach that I took.

Yeah.

Um, for fear of Yeah.

Some sort of injury.

Yeah.

That was funny when you said that because I thought, oh yeah, that's

exact book, that, that made me decide that might be a good idea.

It's funny, isn't it?

How things can just be a bit of a fad.

And you're right, that if for someone who read that book 10 years ago, they

might completely see it as a fad or a trend and something that, you know

past It's, yeah, so I think your right foot friendly is definitely,

that's makes more sense and it's a much clearer message, I think as well.

Yeah, I mean it's a similar time I think as well.

That's when the, the, the vivo five fingers came v not vivo,

uh, Vibram, five fingers.

I don't know if you've seen those there, like there.

Yes.

Yes.

But then, so when you say barefoot, when I've just been talking to, to

other people who, you know, don't know about sort of our shoes or anything,

and they say about barefoot shoes and like, oh, is that those weird, like,

is that those weird ones where you've got the, the like foot gloves and like,

no, that's, that is a barefoot company, but that's not what barefoot shoes are.

So again, I don't want people to sort of have this misconception.

Um, and again, there's like you said, just the, the, the amount of

misinformation which there, there can be out there about footwear.

I, I don't want people to have sort of that, the stigmatized

idea of, of barefoot shoes.

So yeah, I'm just trying to go with, you know, with, with foot friendly, you know.

And that's what they are.

Because as you said earlier, some of the barefoot shoes can look a bit different.

So you averaged shoes, but your shoes have shoes that look like shoes

that kids and parents would choose.

I mean, I guess from the outside, they're, they look exactly the same.

I mean, I've seen your products on your website, they look

like every other pair of shoes.

And I mean that in a, in a positive way.

Yeah.

You know, they don't, they don't stand out.

And I think that's kind of, that's really important.

So I definitely think that for the audience, you know, you are trying

to sell these to, I definitely think they're pitched perfectly.

Yeah.

So that was one of the things which actually was exactly what you wanted,

was where you said they don't stand out.

That's exactly what I wanted.

I didn't, you know, they, our, our shoes are going to stand out and be

different because they're barefoot shoes.

So the rest of it, I actually want them to look generic, which, you

know, I'm, I'm glad to, to hear to some degree that we are achieving.

That's brilliant.

And um, so I've just got one final question before we

finish, if that's okay ing.

Because I want to be really mindful of your time.

Yeah.

So my final question is, what is your number one piece of advice

for other product creators?

So I've been trying to actually give this

some thought and I don't know.

If I could say that, you know, I'm definitely not far enough

down the line to be saying this is what other people should be doing.

But I can definitely say what has worked well for me.

And I would say if you're trying to make a decision, you're never

going to be a hundred percent sure.

So for me, I was trying to get to, am I about 75% sure this is the right decision?

And if it is, that's my threshold, and then I go, fine, let's go.

Because otherwise you can just drag things out for so long trying to

find the perfect, you know, answer to what, you know, the perfect shoe

design or, or whatever it might be.

Whereas actually I'm like, nope.

Is it 75% there?

Yes, good.

That's good enough for me.

And then I'll start doing whatever it is and if it doesn't work, and

it just means you've learned faster and you know, so, you know, when.

I'll give you an example.

When we first launched, because everyone has to been mindful of, of the

environments and stuff, we, we wrapped our shoes to post them out in, um, paper with

sort of nice, um, eco paper tape on top.

And it was like, yep, this is the way I'm going.

You know, 75%, I'm sure that this is the right option.

And we started.

And within a couple of weeks I was like, nope, it doesn't work.

Uh, just because of the amount of time, even though it was, you know,

I mean it was, this has taken me sort of, you know, 40 seconds I think to

wrap up, uh, just a box by itself.

But even still, when you're posting so many, it didn't work.

But rather than spending ages and everything getting

delayed, I made the decision.

I started going down that path and I just learnt faster that

it did, does or doesn't work.

And yeah, that, that's something which has really helped.

That's really great advice.

Thank you.

Because I think, I, I think you're right that sometimes, you know, you can

procrastinate or yeah, spend a long time thinking about the, some of the smaller

details, which I'm not saying they're not important, but like, you know,

like you've just said, you can, you can change, you can make a decision then a

weeks or days or even hours later go do you know what, actually, I think I'll

do it a bit differently and that's fine.

So I think that's, I think that's really, I mean, that's really great

practical advice for everything actually.

Yeah.

Well, I'm, yeah, I mean, I, I, I think I actually nabbed it off Barack Obama.

I, um, I, I heard him talking about something, about making a

decision, and he, I'm sure he said it was something like, I think 80

or 60%, whatever his number was.

It was like, no, you're never going to have a hundred percent of the information.

This is my threshold.

I hit that and then I make, I go with it.

So, if it was good enough for him, then I'm sure it'll be all right for me.

I mean, that's really good.

Thank you so much and thank you so much for everything you've shared.

Um, yeah, I loved hearing more about your journey and your products and

a bit about barefoot shoes as well.

So thank you so much.

Okay, perfect.

Well, thank you very much for your time.

You're welcome.

Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode.

Do remember that you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources

on my website, vicki weinberg.com.

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