It was a single phrase that immediately made me want to have Maggie Blackburn on my podcast. We were part of the same career coaching group (with past guest, Jenni Gritters) and Maggie described herself as having a “portfolio career” and supporting women who wanted the same thing. This idea seemed beautifully aligned with the career path I have followed and what some— but not all—Renaissance People follow. Maggie has a wonderful variety of work she does and shares my passion for bringing people together to build community as well as my love of volleyball among other things.

Promised Show Notes Materials (take a drink):

• Sign up for updates on my podcast and what’s happening in the Renaissance People Community.
• What’s this Renaissance Mindset I keep talking about? This “quasi-manifesto” episode seeks to explain it
• Work with me to Find Your Golden Thread
• Join Fertile Grounds, the monthly gathering of the Renaissance People Community
• Check out my video shorts series, “The Growth of Growing” (here’s the first video on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram)
• My newsletter for job seekers is “Take it With You”, where I talk about the role of translation in the job search particularly if you’re changing from one industry or discipline to another
• Ep. 9: A Mind for Memory with Brian Skellenger, Survivalist (my brain refused to remember the UW-Madison volleyball player he referenced, Dana Rettke. She was interview in this YouTube video about her mindset that led to her success in dance and volleyball).
• My reference about most athletes not being like Tiger Woods came from Range: Why Generalists Thrive in a Specialized World by David Epstein
• Ep. 10: The Forever Revolution with Jenni Gritters, Multi-Passionate
• Jana Carlson’s The Co-Promotion Club (Co-Pro Club for short)
• Maggie’s LinkedIn post and Instagram video about completing a 40-day Instagram challenge and what she learned
• Maggie’s website and newsletter, “Feeling Free”

Follow Maggie on Social Media:

LinkedIn | Instagram

A few things Maggie and I discuss:

8:04 Why the “Jill-of-All-Trades” term’s actionable nature is a draw for Maggie

9:04 Sara’s expanding definition of “Renaissance Person”

10:59 The definition of a portfolio career and why it is particularly valuable today

14:56 Comparing the impact of COVID-19 pandemic vs AI on people

19:57 Maggie’s experience with dot connecting as a product marketer

21:24 Boundary spanners serving as translators

25:18 Maggie’s evolution from information systems and database designing to marketing at Slack

29:41 The drive of first-born daughters to be challenged

32:58 Don’t tell us “we’ve always done it this way”

35:20 Why short athletes inspire us (the U. of Minnesota player I was referencing was Shannon Schonrock)

36:20 Answering the dreaded question, “What do you do?” by thinking about the other person first.

41:43 Improv Game

44:47 Rapidish Fire Questions

45: 12What taking a job in college mainly for the money taught us

49:40 Metaphor options for a portfolio career

Quotes from the episode:

(Sara) I know that it's really important for us to gather live, to bounce ideas off each other, to share resources, to just get inspired by other people, because when you listen to a creative Renaissance Person talking and sharing what they're doing, it just gets you revved up and excited to do something yourself.

(Maggie) I right now am building a portfolio career. So the way that I describe it, is a career of multiple interests and income streams. And it sort of changes over time, which is nice because it relieves the pressure of having to think about what is the one thing that I'm gonna do next. And instead it can be, what am I gonna do in the next few months? And then maybe that changes or it builds out and becomes more stable.

(Sara) I'd argue in today's world, it's almost more reliable to have more of that portfolio style or idea to your work because we can't trust one company to protect us and be the “company man”, and you get a watch when you've been there for 25 years, and your name on the door. Like, that's not the dream that I think a lot of people of our generation and younger generations even have, because it doesn't really seem feasible in a lot of spaces.

(Maggie) I think again with the market changes and the shift, I feel like it does make you question how you fit into the world and how you want to show up next. I think similarly with the AI movement and people again not knowing exactly what's going to happen. It's sort of a moment to pause and be like, "OK, how is this gonna work? Where do I have control?" I think when there's no control, people try to latch onto what they have control onto.

(Sara) The worst positions I've been in are the ones where somebody higher up than me or someone with more power than me says, "We're doing it this way because this is how we've always done it." I hate that phrase!

(Maggie) It's the worst!

(Sara) I've taken pay cuts other times in my career just because, again, it's that values that we talked about way at the beginning, is you realize what your values are when you do something that isn't values-aligned. And that doing the non-values aligned thing isn't necessarily a bad thing if you learn from it and complete whatever you promised you were gonna complete, and you're responsible and that sort of thing, 'cause we're also the oldest daughters, so we learned responsibility very early. But you complete what you're supposed to do, and then you say, "And moving on. Next thing."

(Maggie) Totally! You learn from everything

(Maggie) I was technically a janitor in college for the gym, but it was called something like “facilities” something? Like, something a little bit better, made it sound nicer.

(Sara) And you're like, "I was a janitor. Let's admit it."

(Maggie) I cleaned the bathroom.

(Sara) Ooh, that's fun.

Follow me, Renaissance Woman Sara Kobilka, on LinkedIn, where I put most of my social media energy, and Facebook.

If you’re extra curious, check out Renaissance Woman Consulting to learn more about some of the many types of work I do.

And should you care to support the production of this podcast, I’d love it if you’d buy me an oat milk cappuccino, my caffeinated beverage of choice.

This podcast is hosted and edited by Sara Kobilka.

Theme music is by Brian Skellenger

Podcast distribution support provided by K.O. Myers of Particulate Media

(sung) Connecting the Dots with The Renaissance People

Normally, I release at 5:00 AM Eastern Time on Wednesdays every other week. But I've been traveling for a couple of weeks. My kids have been home way too often, and I can't record the introduction for this podcast with my children running around in the background making all kinds of wonderful noise 'cause they're having so much fun.

So I pushed it off and I'm doing an experiment. I'm just gonna see, see what the numbers are, see what happens. This idea of doing an experiment actually was something that I was inspired to do based on a podcast that I was listening to. There is a woman who was talking about how her job title actually is about experimenting and failing, and that's kind of a cool job title after all.

I have a LinkedIn post where I mention that, and I will put that link in the show notes. Take a drink, everyone, 'cause that's what we do. We Renaissance People do enjoy sharing resources with one another because whenever we're learning things, and man, are we voracious lifelong learners, we also simultaneously want to share those things again sometime in the future.

So check the show notes for that and other great links. But anyways, her conversation about experiments and her role was in marketing for a podcast, it made me think, " What kind of experiment can I do?" And at the end of every podcast episode, we play the improv game, "You know you're a Renaissance Person if..."

And then we fill in the blank, and I try to improvise it and not think of it ahead of time. But I've got one at the beginning of the show for you this week. So you know you are a Renaissance Person if creativity strikes you, a brand new project comes up, and you just can't help yourself, but you dive down that rabbit hole.

And sure enough, that inspiration while driving my kids to summer camps in the car and listening to a podcast means that I've dived into a new fun little side project. And so a friend helped me come up with the name of it.

It's called The Growth of Growing. And it's a video shorts series that I will be releasing over the next few months, and it's all about gardens, gardening. Literally, we're gonna be in my garden. I'm gonna talk about stuff. I'm gonna talk about it metaphorically. All sorts of great stuff all around gardens and gardening because my garden, especially in the summer, is really my happy place to be, other than by the side of a pool or at a live outdoor concert with a delicious beverage and a picnic. But I digress. \

So the Renaissance People Community is going to be getting together virtually in what I'm calling Fertile Grounds. And so it is a place for us to play with ideas and pollinate possibilities and have lots of alliteration while we're doing it, and it's called The Growth of Growing, which again, alliteration. Who doesn't love a little bit of alliteration?

It's gonna be something that I'm hoping to continue to do over the years. And one of the big things when people sign up for my Renaissance People newsletter, which is completely free, is I ask them a little bit about themselves 'cause Renaissance People are pretty intriguing. You are. You are so multifaceted. You're a walking Venn diagram. You've got all these really diverse interests, and I love learning about them. And I also asked everybody the question of like, "What do you want out of this community?" Because I can't make it for myself and have it be valuable for other people.

And one of the big things that I found people were asking for is we want to get together. And unfortunately, because you span around the globe, this podcast has literally been listened to by people on every single continent. Yes, I got Antarctica, and you'll find out more about that later on, maybe even this summer.

But I know that it's really important for us to gather live, to bounce ideas off each other, to share resources, to just get inspired by other people, because when you listen to a creative Renaissance Person talking and sharing what they're doing, it just gets you revved up and excited to do something yourself.

So back to today's episode. I am joined by Maggie Blackburn, and some of the things that Maggie and I discussed, one is my ever-expanding definition of what a Renaissance Person is and what a Renaissance Mindset is, and there's a link in the show notes to tell you a little bit about what my Renaissance Mindset manifesto is.

There's an entire podcast episode where I talk about it, so definitely check that one out after you're done with this one.

Maggie also talks about the thing which initially drew me to her and made me think " I think this is a potential Renaissance Woman," and that is the term portfolio career.

So she's gonna talk a little bit about what is a portfolio career. We share why we think it's a really valuable thing, in particular today. We compare a little bit the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic versus AI coming onto the scene and jobs changing because of that. A little bit about Maggie's experience as a dot connector, as a product marketer, How boundary spanners serve as really great translators.

Maggie had an evolution. She went from information systems, Which meant coding and database design to marketing at Slack. How'd you make that jump? You're gonna find out. We're both firstborn daughters, so we talk about one of our challenges and one of the phrases that annoys us the most when we are working on projects with teams.

There was a lot of discussion of sports in this episode, so listen for that. Of course, we had to get into answering the dreaded question, what do you do? Play that improv game, and finally learn a little bit about Maggie's little experiment that she's been doing on Instagram. So are you ready? Here we go

My question for you, I'm gonna just go right for the jugular and talk about identity because I think that's a huge part of the work that I do, and I think that it also really plays a role in some of the work that you do, which we will talk about very shortly.

But what I wanna know first is which of these terms aligns best with your identity? Do you consider yourself a Renaissance Person, Renaissance Man... Woman? Are you a multi-passionate, a generalist, versatilist, Jack, Jill, Jay-of-all-trades, a boundary spanner, a polymath, which is my newest addition to the list, or some other term that feels better for you?

[00:08:14] Sara Kobilka: Yeah.

[00:08:19] Sara Kobilka: So if I forced you to pick between them, which is something that Renaissance People hate being forced to do. We want a check all the boxes question, not a pick one. But if you had to pick one, what would you pick?

[00:08:34] Sara Kobilka: What do you like about that?

[00:09:04] Sara Kobilka: Interesting. You're the second person who's been on the podcast and has chosen that Jill-of-all-trades perspective, and one of the things that I'm really excited to talk to you about is something that I've been thinking about when I came up with this idea of being a Renaissance Woman.

So when I initially had the idea, I was thinking of Leonardo da Vinci and the whole idea of him being a Renaissance Man. And even though it's not scientifically accurate, the rejection of left brain versus right brain thinking, the idea of, oh, you're a STEM person or you're a humanities and arts and journalism person, and you gotta pick which side, and I reject that. And I do a lot of stuff that kind of spans those boundaries. And I've done a career that has spanned boundaries and moved in a lot of different industries.

And so when I was initially thinking about my definition of a Renaissance Person, I was thinking more in the line of people whose careers have moved in a lot of different directions. But I've realized after talking to people and kind of thinking more about it, that one of the differences between what I talk about, and we're gonna get to it next, what you talk about, is that my perspective of the Renaissance Person is not just the career.

You can be a Renaissance Person who maybe had a career at IBM, and you moved between teams, but you didn't leave IBM, and you were a scientist your entire career and still be a Renaissance Person based on your outside interests, the music, the sports, the things like that, or you just enjoy reading about things. You can be multifaceted, but it's not necessarily directly what pays the bills.

Versus your area of specialty, or at least one of your areas of specialty. So now I'll let you have a chance to explain what is it that you're doing right now? Where are you that known quantity?

I right now am building a portfolio career. So the way that I describe it is a career of multiple interests and income streams. And it sort of changes over time, which is nice because it relieves the pressure of having to think about what is the one thing that I'm gonna do next. And instead it's, can be, what am I gonna do, you know, in the next few months? And then maybe that changes or it builds out and becomes more stable.

So right now, I help women build their portfolio careers, whether that is they have a full-time job and they're trying to build on the side, or they're stepping away from more of the traditional work into non-traditional work, freelancing, fractional, or building out their business and helping other people that they wanna help, and figuring out how to do that, how to go about that, like, all of the different steps of, your ICP and finding your first client and all of those things.

And in addition to that, I do events. So both events for companies, and retreats for communities, as well as some community events that I host myself to just bring people together, which I love, and workshops and things like that.

And then, I also do fractional marketing for a startup right now. And so I've been doing that here and there since I left my full-time job in product marketing in tech. So it's been a mix of different, different pieces.

And I follow your newsletter, and you can talk about your very own experiences trying to navigate that, going through the challenges, the ups, the downs, because it's not always as easy. Though I'd argue in today's world, it's almost more reliable to have more of that portfolio style or idea to your work because we can't trust one company to protect us and be the company man, and you get a watch when you've been there for 25 years, and your name on the door.

Like, that's not the dream that I think a lot of people of our generation and younger generations even have because it, it doesn't really seem feasible in a lot of spaces. Do you see that generational shift of people moving away from even considering or wanting to have that company man stereotype career?

But, uh, this, this case I definitely think I'm seeing more people step away. Either they have a choice and they've stepped away and have done or doing, that freelance fractional or like building their business, or they are getting laid off unfortunately because there's a lot of layoffs. And because I have a background in tech I have a larger network in tech and there just have been so many people that have come to me as well and been laid off and talking about what they wanna do next because they have this time. And so by choice or by not, it's starting to happen more and I think even for people who are still in corporate they're like, " how do I stay safe? How do I build my own stability into this because I don't know what the company will do." Everyone is sort of on that edge I think especially if you're in tech but also other companies as well.

Maybe in the long term they'll realize that wasn't the best of ideas, but at least in the short term, and we all have to pay bills in the short term, we want that safety. So what do you see was the, like, impact first of the pandemic on these kinds of things, and then kind of this AI revolution in the last couple of years?

So, with COVID it was either, "Okay, now is the time. I'm gonna do something else. I am leaving." And remember there was that movement almost of so many people, like, leaving, I remember

[00:16:08] Maggie Blackburn: during COVID. Starting something, their content journey, whatever it was. then During COVID I feel like, and I was more in this camp, the people who had to stay inside anyways, right?

So, put a lot of effort into work and their career because there was nothing else really to do. You couldn't really hang out with your friends. So I think my period of COVID really was, like, heads down working, and that also affected me 'cause I was like, "Do I wanna do this?" Like, I worked so hard in my apartment.

And then I got to the point, so it happened a little bit later for me. And then now with AI, I feel like what we're seeing is because it's kind of early and There's so much uncertainty, again, similar to COVID, we're just seeing a lot of this almost panic, I think, with

[00:16:53] Maggie Blackburn: companies and with people of, what do I do? And I do think it's going to mellow out, in the years to come. But right now it's just new. And so people don't really know what to do next, and I think that's why they're, they're exploring and also why companies are laying people off. So it will, I think, calibrate. But just right now I feel is very uncertain. So I think it's an interesting time that we, we live in.

And so the pandemic, I realized I'm not gonna find a job outside of the house. And so rather than starting sourdough, I started my company, Renaissance Women Consulting. But I felt like I could not put in the time that I wanted to because taking care of the kids and the lack of childcare and all of those other things took me away.

But yet I had cousins who were younger and didn't have kids, or friends who were, who didn't have children who did the exact opposite like you and were like, " I got no social life to go out and do things, so I might as well put my head down and do the work." And we all kind of like came out of that dazed, confused, and in very different places in the world.

But I think everyone was really thinking about their values, and that's been one of the big things that I've seen, whether it's students that I teach in college who have different values about like getting homework done or attending class, or parents who are more comfortable taking their kids out of school because they're like, "You know what?

Time with family matters more than them passing this class or getting an A." And so that values realignment, the this, and I think the AI growth probably also brings about some sort of values realignment, which really does make a lot of things in life feel very unsettled at this point in time. Are you seeing that kind of thing, too?

[00:19:30] Sara Kobilka: Makes a lot of sense. So you talked a little bit about it, but the title of this podcast is Connecting the Dots, and I'd love to hear about some of the spaces where you feel like you connect the dots and are able and uniquely qualified, to connect the dots, whether it's because of your background, whether it's because of your interests. Where are you able to be that dot connector that other people might not be able to do?

So you have to be the dot connector because you have to work really cross-functionally with different teams. You have to listen and hear what they're saying, bring it back to the team, the executives, that also have a say. So I think that helps me a lot in terms of connecting the dots in a corporate sense.

And then in a non-corporate sense, now working for myself, I feel like I'm meeting so many people. Like, I definitely don't think I've met as many people when I was in corporate, because I was just with my coworkers. And now I'm connecting people, and I'm connecting more people who might find value from each other, and that's something that I really love, whether it is, you know, I saw a job that you might be interested in or just these two people seem like they should chat.

I think that's where I also have found a lot of fulfillment.

And I think you can connect the dots in that maybe you can speak the language that they're used to hearing in that tech sector and help them with that translation process of talking about what their skills that they might have gained in the tech sector would mean or how y- would you talk about that in something other than tech if they are looking to explore and have more of that portfolio career that isn't necessarily just designing software or whatever aspect of technology you were involved with.

Do you see some of that happening?

[00:23:10] Sara Kobilka: I've had at least three people who would define themselves as working in the science communication sphere as guests on my podcast, and I feel like a lot of the people who end up getting into, whether it's science communication, whether it's technology marketing, it's like those positions that are the boundary spanners tend to be those Renaissance-type People and can have that comfort level with being around a person who's gonna maybe use some scientific jargon or talk very technically.

You can be comfortable around them and also comfortable enough to ask the questions when they're getting too jargony or when they're kind of explaining something in a way that's hard to understand. And yet in the back of your mind, you also are able to think about how to simplify, how to use metaphors, how to use some of those strategic tools of communication to, like you said, translate that message from that highly technical, maybe jargon-filled communication you had with one person to a whole other audience of people.

And so I f- I feel like those kinds of jobs attract Renaissance People naturally. Would you say that other people who have been in similar types of positions that you've known are also people who might fit under this category of Renaissance Person or Jill-of-all-trades?

[00:25:07] Sara Kobilka: So what got you into that field? Did you specifically major in something because you were interested in moving in this direction? Or how did your career take you there?

But I reached out to someone on LinkedIn actually that went to my school who I didn't know, a few years older than me, and they were hiring for a business marketing role at Slack. And I had always been interested in marketing, but I just didn't major in it because I thought I couldn't make money. So, so, uh, that's how I got into it, was wanting to work at Slack, finding a role that I thought I could qualify for, messaging someone random on LinkedIn, even back then, which was like 20, I don't know, 2018, 2017.

And then got my foot in the door, followed up, was really thoughtful during the interview process, and was able to get the role which was exciting. I was super excited, and that's how I got into marketing, having no professional marketing experience.

[00:26:35] Maggie Blackburn: I do remember taking some sort of coding class, like that database class where we had to design a database with SQL. I don't know any of it now. Uh,

[00:26:50] Maggie Blackburn: Yeah. Well, now with some of those tools, I guess you should know it, I think, but also, I don't know. Anyone can build, which is crazy.

[00:26:56] Maggie Blackburn: But I also minored in graphic communication. I think that was where I found some joy. It was fun. We did screen printing class. We learned about inks and toners. And during my last year in college, I actually was a graphic designer for the school. So it was a fun time the minor. But in the major, I was a bit bored.

but I ended up adding atmospheric and oceanic science. And for me, I was gonna be on TV as a reporter, and also being a meteorologist meant that there were gonna be more job opportunities for me. But the other thing that was really nice in my mind about adding that in is, back to, again, I don't like it 'cause it's not true, but the idea of left brain, right brain.

The idea of the STEM-focused content and the humanities or journalism. I liked having a mix of those things in my life. And when I was only, or almost only, doing journalism things, because I had actually already taken AP calc and I had taken honors science in high school, I didn't need those classes in college, and I missed that side of things.

And so for me it was really fulfilling, and I felt like I was using my whole brain or more of my creativity and my ability by having two different, very different realms that I was taking classes in. Did that kind of help you feel like more of your... we talk about kids being well-rounded. Did it make you feel more well-rounded because you were able to have that minor?

[00:29:18] Sara Kobilka: It was a BOGO. When I used to teach workout classes, I'm like, "This is a BOGO. We're gonna work your core and your legs at the same time." And so yes, it was helping you potentially get a better job, and you also fulfilled that desire for fun in your classwork as well.

[00:29:34] Sara Kobilka: Where did that message of college needs to be completely focused on getting that right job come from in your life?

I didn't have a bad life,

[00:30:06] Maggie Blackburn: You know, but I think there was, there was still some sort of... I, like, remember in second grade I asked my parents to give me the harder teacher because I wanted to learn and I wanted to be challenged. So it was just like even since second grade, which is kind of crazy how that memory or how that happened.

So I think partially I wanted to be like, "Hi, I can't play 'cause I have to do homework." But I think it was that, like, drive that is just kind of natural and, like, inside of us of I want to do better, I want to learn, give me more, give me the challenge, as opposed to some people who shy away, like, "Oh, that's the hard class. I don't wanna take that class," versus, "Hey, that's the hard class. That's appealing 'cause that means I'm gonna be challenged and I'm gonna, like, do something with that."

[00:31:11] Sara Kobilka: Do you have siblings?

[00:31:18] Sara Kobilka: Yeah, oldest daughter syndrome.

[00:31:23] Sara Kobilka: That's okay. Yeah, I think a lot of us oldest daughters also are very much the driven ones and maybe get that message of kind of, "You're the oldest, you should be responsible, you should be thinking ahead." And so that kind of gets into our heads a little bit,

[00:31:39] Sara Kobilka: That lifelong impact of that. Well, my next question is, and maybe you've answered it, and if you have, that's okay, but, are there other spaces where you think you've really thrived as a Renaissance Person or as that Jill-of-all-trades, or do you see other people who would kind of fit this Renaissance Person, personality thriving in particular types of settings?

But I think, for multi-passionate people, just roles where they can learn and they can soak up everything that they can, I think, from it. Because that's what I've enjoyed, is just being really curious about stuff and then trying it and then seeing if I like it. And sometimes it sticks, and sometimes it doesn't, but having the flexibility, I guess, as well to try.

[00:33:12] Maggie Blackburn: It's the worst! Even if they say, We're doing it this way, it's like too hard to change it," you know, that similar, but even if they just implemented it, "Oh, we just implemented it,"

[00:33:22] Maggie Blackburn: well, if it doesn't work..." Uh

She had done dance previously. And her dance background really helped for her because she played middle blocker. And so when you're the middle blocker, yes, you have to jump up in the middle and block, but you have to go to the left and to the right, and you have to kind of be able to follow wherever people are.

And so that dance background, that really strong core, that ability to move your feet, and just control over your muscles really help- Or jumping, just jumping, from dance. She was trained with that. And he brought up the example again of sports, like you said, of when you cross-train in multiple sports, that can actually make you a better athlete.

And a lot of the athletes today that are really successful are not the Tiger Woods who trained from the age of, like, two, but are people who tried out a lot of different sports, gained skill from those different sports. And then, found the one that they loved, that they were willing enough to put in the time and the sweat and the tears to be really successful at.

But I think going across a lot of sports can be really helpful. My mom taught piano, and she had some piano students who played hockey, but their parents forced them to take dance classes because they wanted to have that, like, ability to spin, ability to, like, control your feet. Yeah.

[00:34:59] Sara Kobilka: Did you continue to do any sports or athletics when you got into college?

[00:35:09] Sara Kobilka: Yay!

[00:35:20] Sara Kobilka: Yeah

[00:35:26] Sara Kobilka: Tangents are the best. Celebrate them. Woo-woo. We love a tangent.

[00:35:39] Sara Kobilka: Yeah!

[00:35:41] Sara Kobilka: Yeah, I'm also 5'6". And there are... I can name a few, like, volleyball players, and there was a point guard, a basketball player at the University of Minnesota at one point in time who was also 5'6". And so, like, I cheer those people on 'cause I'm like, "They're my size," and they can go up against these six-foot-tall women who tower over them, but they got the tenacity and the speed, and they find some other skill that they can really strengthen to offset that height difference that they have.

And I feel like they have to fight for it a little bit more, and that, like, fight in them makes them better.

[00:36:15] Sara Kobilka: Volleyball is by far my favorite sport to play. So, okay, gonna ask the tough question that makes most people groan. How do you describe your multifaceted background without overwhelming people? Because sometimes we can be a lot to handle.

'Cause I could list out everything, but people can get lost. So I will lean into more of if I'm around, in San Francisco and I'm around more tech people and it's like, "Oh, what do you do?" "Oh, I do fractional marketing with startups and I do some other things too." Or like when I'm at a meetup for other women who want to build a portfolio career, then I talk more about that, how I built a portfolio career or the work that I do there.

So I sort of flex it so then I don't have to necessarily talk about everything and just can focus on what they care about.

How do you do it when you don't have that interface with the other person and the opportunity to ask questions of them before you're saying, "Hi, I'm Maggie"?

[00:37:53] Sara Kobilka: Met too!!

But when I first made it, I think with a lot of things, and maybe this is, like, the neurodivergence as well, it's just, like, for me, at least, I have a project, and I just, like, love getting really in the zone and finishing it. And so I finished my website in a weekend when I was at my parents. And I just did it all on Squarespace. It wasn't perfect. I built out all the pages. I just remember, like, doing it. And, over the holidays when I first left my corporate job, I think, and then I had the website.

And then now I've made some updates, but just minor ones. And it is a little bit hard to figure out who it's for and how people land on it. I always try to think about the person who I'm mainly talking to, and who I provide more of the services for, and what channels they're on. And so most of my website appeals to women who want to pivot their career or build a portfolio career. But then there is some mentions of, "Okay, I do fractional marketing with startups. Here's how to contact me." And just making it hopefully easy for them to understand how to get in touch with me or learn more if they need to, so those different pathways. And just thinking about it from the experience versus from, myself from what I wanna put on the website, and more so what would be valuable for someone just landing on the website from LinkedIn or from, you know, social media, 'cause I think that's how a lot of people get on, or email, for example, onto the website too.

[00:39:51] Maggie Blackburn: Totally. Yeah. it's a journey. I, I'm, thinking through too, yeah, how to update mine. So if you're looking at my website after this, just know

[00:40:02] Maggie Blackburn: there'll be some updates.

[00:40:25] Maggie Blackburn: I don't think I'm an expert at this at all, but I think the way that I first is like, ugh, I you know, you wanna break the boundary down. You're kind of just like, " why is it so hard to get this done?" Or, you have your initial reaction, I think. And then it depends on who I'm talking to again, and what I'm working on. Because if I'm working with a client, for example, in a startup, it might be more sensitive, where it's asking more questions to understand the motivation around why they want to keep this boundary, keep it this way. And then how can I share back in a way that benefits them?

Again, like making it on them versus making it on me and what I want, even though I want something. How do I position it that way? And I think I learned a lot of that from corporate, and what kinda tired me out in corporate as well, which is constantly, like, this internal selling of an idea of a launch, of whatever we were doing.

And so, I've kinda learned a little bit better how to do that, but I'm, I wouldn't say I'm perfect. And if it's not in that sort of setting, and it's outside of that, I think it's similar, where I would still ask questions and then again, think about where it lies.

But it sort of depends too, because maybe it's something that I can just go and figure out myself.

[00:41:38] Maggie Blackburn: Yeah.

[00:41:40] Maggie Blackburn: exactly.

[00:41:43] Improv Game

And, since I'm instigating the game, I will go first. So I'm gonna do it based off of what we've talked about today. So you know you are a Renaissance Person if you get bored easily if your job requires you to do the same thing over and over and over again. How about you?

[00:42:34] Sara Kobilka: Yep. I have so many tabs that they have spanned on past the width of my window. And that's okay 'cause they're all these great ideas.

[00:42:43] Sara Kobilka: Okay, should we do it again? Can you do round two?

[00:42:46] Sara Kobilka: Okay. So you know you are a Renaissance Person if... Oh, I had an idea, now it's gone. Come back to me, idea! You know you are a Renaissance Person if you encounter a boundary that doesn't make any sense and you ignore it and drive all the way around it and just keep on going.

[00:43:16] Sara Kobilka: Yeah. I think we have the ability that if we talk to someone who's animated, who's passionate, who's excited about something, we can latch onto that energy and feed off of it and get excited just right along with them, as opposed to some people who are like, "Oh, you're too much. Like, you're going down that rabbit hole, and I don't wanna follow." If you're excited, I'll get excited about it, even if it, it's not directly applicable to the work that I'm doing, just your natural excitement, I will feed off of that

[00:44:03] Sara Kobilka: Yeah. I think Jenni Gritters is really, uh, quite good about that, and we talked a lot about that on her episode and, and the idea of magnetism,

[00:44:12] Sara Kobilka: and that if you are really passionate, you're excited, and you're talking about what you care about, the right people will be attracted to you. And the wrong people will probably be repelled by you, but that is okay if the wrong people are repelled by you because you don't wanna waste your energy on those people anyways, if, especially if you know, you're running a business and you have limited energy to spend on it anyways

[00:44:40] Sara Kobilka: yes.

[00:44:42] Sara Kobilka: It's all about me, but it's not about me, but it is about me. What a contradiction.

[00:44:47] Sara Kobilka: Okay, so I now have some, I call them rapidish fire questions because we Renaissance People don't always do rapid very well, but that is okay. So...

[00:44:59] Sara Kobilka: Can you share... That's another. You know if you're a Renaissance Person if you can't do a rapid-fire question.

But can you share a job or a career that you've had that is not in your LinkedIn profile?

[00:45:23] Sara Kobilka: Yeah, made it sound nicer and you're like, "I was a janitor. Let's admit it."

[00:45:28] Sara Kobilka: Ooh, that's fun. Did you learn anything from that job though that you've been able to apply later on?

So I learned for myself that I just took it for the money and then I kind of obviously didn't love, love it. I, I was only in it for a year. Then I moved to a different role, which was basically the front desk and I was like, " Actually, this one's better even if it gets paid the same." So,

[00:46:04] Maggie Blackburn: so I learned that like money isn't everything and if you don't like something then you can change it.

but that was such a small little lesson and then I learned it again, you know, when I was in corporate too.

And this was, you know, before some of the digital AI things that we have nowadays. But it was the most mind-numbingly boring job ever. I made it through one semester, 'cause I finish what I start. And then after that, I was like, "I will take less money, and I will be an academic tutor," and I tutored for the rest of my collegiate career, and it was so much more satisfying , and I just felt better about myself.

And I've taken pay cuts other times in my career just because, again, it's that values that we talked about way at the beginning, is you realize what your values are when you do something that isn't values aligned. And that doing the non-values aligned thing isn't necessarily a bad thing if you learn from it. And, you know, you complete whatever you promised you were gonna complete, and you're responsible and that sort of thing, 'cause we're also the oldest daughters, so we learned responsibility very early. But you complete what you're supposed to do, and then you say, "And moving on. Next thing."

[00:47:51] Sara Kobilka: How about what is one metaphor that you find yourself using frequently, whether it's in the work that you do or just in life in general?

[00:48:16] Sara Kobilka: That's OK. I'll take that too

[00:48:35] Sara Kobilka: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:55] Sara Kobilka: I could... Yeah, I can say it a thousand times, it doesn't make it true.

[00:49:12] Sara Kobilka: that two, phrases that I like related to that. One was one I actually had hanging up in my childhood bedroom, and I don't know where I got it from. I, somebody must have printed out all these things and was giving them away for free. But it said, " You can't hit a home run if you don't step up to the plate."

And I liked that. Like, you- you're right, you're never gonna hit a home run if you just, like, sit in the stands or on the bench. And then the other one is, "Every marathon begins with one step."

[00:49:39] Sara Kobilka: And s-

[00:49:40] Sara Kobilka: yeah, and then another, and then a whole lot more after that. So one of the things that I've mentioned on other podcasts is my favorite go-to metaphor is gardening. And I talk a lot about the process of networking, which I know you were talking about you doing so much more of that nowadays, as gardening. And how to, like, support a growing network around you.

And another person that I think both of us know, Jana Carlson, who runs the CoPro Club,

[00:50:06] Sara Kobilka: sent out an email this morning f- that really kinda resonated with me and had me thinking again, and the subject line was Gardens Over Journeys. And she's going through a difficult time of grief in her own life, and she was talking about how the shift from thinking about her life as a journey to thinking about her life as a garden, where, like, some things are thriving, other things are dying, and you're watering here, and you're kinda leaving that corner alone to let it do its thing.

She found that as a nice reframe of a metaphor, and I was thinking about it, and I love the journey metaphor, and I love the gardening metaphor, and so I'm gonna do the Renaissance Person yes, and that both of those metaphors can simultaneously be true.

But I tend to think of a career with the journey metaphor, and that's what my job-seeking, newsletter that I had. I don't really update it much anymore, but all the content is still available, and it's called, Take It With You. And it's all about your career, especially, like, the type of career that you work on, that sort of, portfolio career of if you're moving to a new realm, you don't lose all those skills that you gained in the previous realm, but you might have to translate it. Just like if you're traveling to another country, you might have to translate the words that you're speaking, but you have your skillset suitcase that you bring with you, and you stop many times along the way, and it's not just what are you gonna be when you grow up singular thing. Do you think of careers as a journey, or does this idea of thinking of a career as a garden align more with what you're talking about nowadays with the portfolio career?

I feel like I'm also restless sometimes or impatient, right? Like, "Oh, why isn't this working? Why is it taking so long?" and so yeah, I think for me, thinking about it in seasons, like right now summer is happening, and so there's... For me, it's more of how do I be outside more? How do I travel? And that's kind of how I prioritize my summer. But also sort of laying some foundation for fall, and harvest and whatnot. So I'm doing some of that now. But I like to think about it in that way too when I'm planning the year and planning, like, when I run some of these workshops or when I do these events to also align it to other people's schedules and seasons, 'cause I do think that it helps

But I also have a community of people, much like you do, where we're not all located in the same city. We're not all in New York City's five boroughs. We are spread in different continents even, and different time zones certainly. And so how do you work around that? And some people have full-time jobs, and some people are entrepreneurs, and some people have kids they have to take care of.

[00:53:31] Sara Kobilka: And you can't find something that's perfect for everybody, but trying to find that sweet spot is always a real challenge, I think. How do you find that, like, sweet spot where you can actually bring people together live?

[00:54:01] Sara Kobilka: Well, what, here's my next question for you, rapidish. What's one rabbit hole that you've gone down recently?

I'm trying to also think about how I speak and how I can do better there because one day I want to do more speaking. I mean, I'm doing some things on this podcast, but how do I improve every day on something that I'm, I'm learning about?

[00:54:37] Maggie Blackburn: Yeah.

[00:54:40] Maggie Blackburn: It's a whole different...

[00:54:41] Maggie Blackburn: ...thing

And then if I create a product that I can also put out on Instagram, I'll put it out there, but I'm not building there in the moment. But maybe I'll pick your brain later on once you finish the course, and you can give me some suggestions on what you're learning. I do love psychology. Like I said, I considered doing a minor in it ' cause psychology and neuroscience and how the human brain works is just such an intriguing thing for me, and so complex in the most wonderful of ways.

[00:55:24] Sara Kobilka: Well, I think that is the last question that I wanted to ask. But I would love to give you the opportunity to now let people know how can they follow you, how can they learn from you if they're thinking, "Hey, portfolio career, that's, that's what I wanna do." How can they connect with you?

[00:55:46] Sara Kobilka: Excellent. And then are you hosting events in New York City that are pretty open to people, or how do you kind of do events?

[00:56:07] Sara Kobilka: What's the focus of your newsletter again for folks who might wanna sign up?

[00:56:29] Sara Kobilka: But here's to making things more complex. Makes it more interesting.

[00:56:34] Sara Kobilka: Well thank you again, Maggie. I really enjoyed talking with you today, and I will continue to engage with you on social media and in other spaces. Thank you so much.

(sung) Connecting the Dots with The Renaissance People