History was made as Ketanji Brown Jackson was confirmed to the U.S. Supreme Court on April 7th. Soon to be Justice Jackson, is constantly, and will continue to be under the scrutiny of the public eye. Arguably more so, based on her gender and race in comparison to the others that have come before her. What does this mean for her husband, Dr. Jackson, a white man? How can we work to understand the oppression that comes from being in an interracial relationship?

This week on the podcast, Shaunna and Lisa discuss second-hand oppression, and what it means to be an ally. Further, they dive into how allyship is hindered based on the expectation of perfection. Using Dr. Jackson and the First Second Gentleman, Doug Emhoff as examples, they dissect the spaces that these men must navigate as white spouses to women of colour, and how they act as allies to their wives and children.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

lisa, jackson, people, white, endurance sport, identity, ally, relationship, biracial, thinking, dawn staley, person, multiracial, woman, partner, background, black, happening, coach, oppression

SPEAKERS

Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold, Dr. Lisa Ingarfield

So Lisa, is it too soon to call The Honorable Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson, the notorious KBJ. Like, like, can we give her her own name?

I think so I don't think it's too soon.

Well, we need to get into the historic confirmation of Judge Ketanji. Brown, Jackson, and, you know, some of the interesting things that I've been seeing pop up about her and her family, as she's about to be sworn in to the highest court of the land. So maybe we should get into some of the details around her family and what the court of public opinion thinks about them and what the next steps look like with their family on the bench.

Yeah, I agree. Let's do it.

I'm Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold and I go by she her hers pronouns.

And I'm Dr. Lisa Ingarfield. And I go by she her hers.

Welcome to Unphased a podcast to disrupt your normal and challenge your brain to go the distance. So Lisa, let me tell you, my mother, Deborah Farmer Payne is always on it when it comes to the news, right? I had just dropped the boys off at school, and I was excitedly talking to my mom, as I do most mornings about what's going on in the news, and so forth. And I said, I am so excited about Ketanji and I'm talking to her about her family and everything and her bio, and you know, what she's done in her career, and also that her husband is director of surgery at Georgetown, I believe. And I'm thinking in my mind, to be as transparent as possible about my bias. I'm thinking, OH SNAP, we got the black power couple going on here, we've got a judge on the highest court in the land, and we got a brother, that's a surgeon, at Georgetown, can do nothing with them, right? And my mom said, Oh, you haven't seen the family pictures. And I'm like, say what? Ketanji, her husband is white. And I'm like, Well, cool, whatever. I was hyped for a minute, but I'm still hype. I'm really excited. But that just shows how my own bias played into things. And later on, you know, after I did a little bit of research, I'm thinking to myself, how does he feel is he's so proud of his wife going to this next level? This is incredible, just as a bystander, right?

Yeah, and, you know, the hearings were powerful, because I, you know, he was visibly emotional. So that's a really neat example, to set for young men and boys in terms of a very successful, male, crying, right, and being so proud of his partner and her accomplishments, and not at all being threatened by it. So I think that that is a pretty important moment, however, how many young men and boys were watching - that is unclear. So, yeah, I know, bias bias comes up in mysterious ways, right? Like, we think we we don't have it and boom, there it is.

Exactly, exactly. Well, you know, I think, you know, it begs the question of, you know, going back to your point around, you know, future potential partners of high performing women, especially women of color in particular, you know, there's a proximity that's in place where, no, they can't fully understand what it means to be the first black woman to do anything. But being close enough to see and see the process. I mean, I don't know how long they've been married. But obviously, they've been together long enough, I believe, since their college days where he has witnessed this climb up this ladder, and witnessed that firsthand and has been able to see both the highs and the lows of her career journey, professional journey, family journey and so forth. You know, I think he deserves a look, don't you think for you know, being there in support of her even as he knows he can't fully 100% understand her experience, right, and the shared experience that no one else can really replace.

Right? And, you know, credit, yes. And also, I would hope that it's an expectation, right? You're in a multiracial relationship. And you're the partner that doesn't experience racial oppression either at all, or to the same extent, you know, I would hope that you you are empathetic and you don't gaslight your partner. And, and I am curious how much he's learned, you know how quote unquote woke was he when he entered the relationship and then over time because I'm sure her experience on the Supreme Court confirmation hearings was not the first time that she has experienced resistance since individually and systemically as she has kind of made her way through the legal field and into judgeships. So how was it eye opening for him? You know, was he humbled? I wonder?

I don't know. Mm hmm. Yeah. And, you know, judge gives him his his due credit, saying that, you know, he's been the best husband, father and friend she could ever imagine. And so I feel like, you're right, that the role itself comes with some expectations of maybe some of the deepest allyship that one could have, you know, in this because you're having to be an ally on so many different levels. And, you know, even as I'm wondering too how are they raising their daughters to perceive themselves? Because, you know, there's certain generations where, you know, I think this stems from what the the policies that we all know about here in the United States, the the one drop rule of any person having one drop of black blood in them, or African blood in them is considered a black person. You know, there are some biracial or multiracial families that raise their resulting children to consider themselves black, or fully black or partially black. And so what does that mean? Like, I remember hearing that story. First were Halle Berry, the actress, her mother is white, but her mother, knowing how society would treat her, groomed her to continue to own a fully 100% black identity, even as she has a white mother. And so I'm wondering, too, you know, Dr. Jackson has to navigate the allyship of his extremely high profile, high performing spouse, and also daughters that are biracial that will have to deal with their own issues. And I would suggest that, depending on how they choose to define themselves, and how society will define them, they're going to navigate that differently. You know, we know that biracial people in this country struggle to find a full sense of belonging in any community, because it seems as if they're not enough of anything to be at any group, right. And so I'm just, I'm feeling like, the level of necessary and required allyship from individuals like Dr. Jackson has to be heightened, I mean, to another complete level, you know, yeah, a lot to navigate.

He does. And I wonder what that threshold looks like, in terms of moving beyond the, my blank is black, or Latinx, or indigenous. And so I get it, you know, that kind of, I have a black friend, so I understand oppression, narrative often flips from white people's mouths. Or, you know, well, I am married to a woman. So I totally understand what it's like to live as a woman, you know, those kinds of things. And so fairly superficial allyship. And it seems like at least opposite from an observation, you know, through the television, which, you know, I suppose, is quite thin in terms of knowing them, that he is more adept at understanding and that depth of allyship that you articulated seems to be there. And it makes me also think of Vice President Kamala Harris's husband, also white man, and what his journey has been in terms of his development and how he supports the Vice President, you know, as she navigates pretty kind of like shark infested waters of being a woman of color in the second highest role in that country.

Yes, yeah, absolutely. And you know, how far apart all the identities are so, you know, Lisa, let me nerd out for just a minute, but you know, how we think about, you know, the social identity wheel and all the different identities that land there for one person, you know, even, you know, even Judge Jackson mentioned in one of her previous lectures, she talked about both of their backgrounds and how they were extremely different. And she said that, Dr. Jackson, her spouse is a twin, but he and his twin brother are sixth generation graduates of Harvard College, right? So you're coming from you're, you're white, you're male, you might as well say you're decently affluent, you're incredibly highly educated your entire family. And then you have Judge Jackson who is second generation to go to college to go to any type of college, not just Harvard College. And of course, knowing that her slaves, her ancestors were enslaved, you can't not you can't unhear that you can't unsee that, and how far those experiences are yet they brought it close together in order to create a family. And I would suggest Kamala and Doug have done the same with multiple identity groups with Doug, having a Jewish background, Kamala having a number of different backgrounds, including including an Asian background as well, you know, braiding all of that together, you know, you can say that you understand and experience to an extent, but it's still closer than anyone else who says, Oh, I got an Asian friend. I got a white friend, I got a black friend, I got to this friend and that friend, it's like, you, you can't tokenize it. Right? You could have but you can choose not to. And I feel like Doug Emhoff and Dr. Jackson are having to go beyond tokenizing Oh, well, my wife is black. So fill in the blank. They have to go beyond tokenizing. And I think we tokenized even our closest friends because they're close, right? It's it's easy to say, Oh, my college roommate was black. So I know what it's all about. No, you don't. You don't. And you may never. But it's interesting how that tokenizing could happen based on proximity. But you have to be wise enough not to go there.

Yeah. And it's going to be a journey. Right, given what you outlined about Ketanji Brown Jackson's husband's background? That's, yeah, that's generationally privileged. It's interesting, because it made me think of another podcast Code Switch that I'm always talking about. on NPR. This was a long time ago now. But one of the presenters talked about how they felt that in a biracial relationship where one of the partners is white, that because of generational wealth and privilege that that individual should take on a higher percentage of the financial and economic responsibilities of the couple. It’s a longer conversation, right. And I just thought that was really an interesting perspective, particularly, particularly if we slice in issues around gender, right, where it's in a heterosexual relationship, historically, where women have been viewed as property and men have been considered the primary breadwinner and all of those pieces. So then what does it mean? In the the relationships we've just identified where the male partner is white and has that financial generational history of wealth? I don't know. It's very complicated. And so you're point about wisdom, I think is really an important one, because you can't roll into a relationship, particularly one where the person is of a different racial background to you and do so lightly. Right? Hmm,

Absolutely. Yeah. No, I don't think you can go into it lightly. And again, you know, for for those naysayers that may say, Oh, well, if you get into a serious relationship, it shouldn't matter what the backgrounds are, you shouldn't go into it flippantly. Anyway. Yeah. That this feels like an all relationships matter conversation. And that's not where we're going. Lisa and I are probably never going in that direction. But it does mean that your relationship will be heavy, for different reasons than just being in an in-depth relationship with someone. It's different for certain reasons that you shouldn't have to navigate, but now you do on top of the difficulty of relationship in general, right. So I'm thinking of my friends who, you know, they are, they are in a same sex marriage. And one is, identifies as a white male, Jewish background, married to an African American male from the south. You can imagine there's lots of issues going on there for other people, not for them, because they love each other. But again, having to deal with self-identity as well as the perception of the world and how much of that you choose to manage or not, especially when you're there in the deep South, hello, there's a whole lot going on there. And I would surmise there, there's a lot going on with a lot of multiracial relationships that also have additional layers that need to be added on whether it's religious difference, or, you know, ethnic differences. Citizenship differences, there's so many things to layer on. But when you already come out of the gate, from the basis of just not looking like each other, right, like that was one of the things that I said very early on when, when my boys were born, my oldest is 11. And my youngest is seven. But when Trey my oldest first went to daycare and matter of fact, we still call it the Cadillac daycare, because this was not the el cheapo daycare, okay, this was the, you know, branded, very expensive, more than a mortgage daycare, and we're looking around the classroom thinking in maybe one or two years, Trey and his age group, many in his age group may be the only racial group that's readily identifiable, that they're not racially ambiguous, like, you can look at both of my sons and say they are unequivocally black. Right? Right. They have, we have tons of family, friends loved ones classmates, who you cannot definitively say that about. I love that personally. But that's what comes from this. The intermingling of relationship? And then how do you manage it? How do you manage it when your family doesn't look like each other? Yeah, what does that mean? Because people judge that and I'm not saying that's right or fair, but it's, it's true.

Yeah. And then with, um, you know, Vice President, Kamala Harris, and soon to be Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, they're in the spotlight, right. And they are two women of color that historically would not have been in the spotlight, like thinking traditionally, it's like, in their husband, right, given they're in the spotlight. So that's like a real twist of kind of racial hierarchies, if you will, in the United States, at least. And so that's some additional pressure, perhaps, to the white men in the relationship, not that they shouldn't have to manage pressure. But there's all these like stereotypes and structures and norms that might be harmful, right, in terms of self and identity. And so that's probably pretty darn tiring for both people in those couples in that are likely going to be thrown at things from the culture about where they fit and how they should act.

Yes, yes, absolutely. Well, you know, I remember, I remember when we were still getting used to our US language around Doug emhoff. And it's like, okay, we all have to get our mouths very used to no longer saying, First Lady, or second lady and saying, He's the first second gentleman, right, and getting used to even that language was tough for us culture. And so yeah, there's a lot of structures that have held in place, not having people like soon to be Justice Jackson and Vice President Harris, we have the structure in place, which makes it difficult for many of us to, you know, reunite, like, How many times have people stumbled over saying, Madam Vice President? Because we're so used to saying, Mr. Vice President, right. So, you know, even though structures have really been challenging for people, but Lisa before we wrap up, I think we should go down the data, because, you know, we are data people. Okay, we have to at least give them the numbers on things. When it comes to future Justice Jackson, you know, it's profound, you know, we have to look at what the data shows us. I mean, it stands alone by itself that what, over 230 years have passed. And in those 230 years, 115 justices, not even all of them have been confirmed, because the confirmation process wasn't even happening at the beginning. So 115 justices, out of those 108 of them were white men. Two of them were men of color. Five of them were women. One of them was a woman of color. And so you know, excuse me, the second woman of color is now soon to be Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. And so, you know, look at all these different the lack of demographics that have happened here. Thank goodness for Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who also adds the the added understanding of the Jewish culture and so forth, but Uh, you know, again, for the most part, we have not had a whole lot of anything other than white men. And so with that, you know, it's a time of celebration, also acknowledging that this is jostling everyone's understanding of identity. I remember at least I don't know if you saw a lot of this, but I remember hearing a lot of folks that I really respect in the DEI space saying, we're thrilled, about Ketanji’s confirmation. But we're also sickened by the fact that we had to focus so much on the lack of fairness and sideswiping in the confirmation process, that we didn't really get to focus on her laundry list of credentials. So the process hijacked all of her experience and what she brings to the bench in and of itself, like even that we have to process and how her spouse had to sit there and witness the bullshit. That's what gets me like, when cameras are your face. I have no poker face, y'all my face, if I would, Dr. Jackson would have been jacked up the entire time. Because there were very few times where a politician other than than Cory Booker and a couple others had anything remotely important or prideful to say about this old thing. I'm like, Oh, yes. Did you get to watch any of it, Lisa?

Yeah, I did. It was a circus. And I, you know, I wanted to throw things at the television, which isn't super helpful. But you're right, like as the the partner, the cameras are on you, too. Right. And it must be pretty tumultuous to see such ridiculousness. You know, it was so blatantly racially motivated and politically motivated. Yeah, I mean, it's humiliating. And I think, you know, Lisa Murkowski, who's a Republican senator from Alaska, she quoted why she was voting for her because it's like in opposition to this, the way that the confirmation hearing has just become more and more partisan over time, and, you know, historically, you would have certainly, some individuals of the other party vote against a nomination, but by and large, you would get 20 or 30 people from the other party that would vote and now you just don't see that at all. So she had acknowledged that piece. She didn't acknowledge the racialized nature of the hearing, per se. But right. Yeah, I mean, I just the pressure. It's like a pressure cooker, right?

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, absolutely.

I agree. I do want to mention, we missed Elena Kagan, who is the second Jewish woman on the court.

Oh, okay. That's important to know. I wasn't aware of that. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Even when you think about that, so 115 justices, and there's two members of Judah Judaism.

Right. Right. To Right, right. Right. Exactly. Yeah, so true. Well, that's good to know. Well, you know, I think, you know, as we kind of circle back, because y'all know, that we always try to tie things to endurance sport, is that, you know, we've kind of focused on Dr. Jackson, and, of course, Doug Emhoff. And, you know, those who play kind of a ally to the oppression, you know, we, I've seen a number of articles listed as secondhand oppression, where, no, they may not have both feet in it, as, but they are as empathetic as they can possibly be without sharing those identity groups. And also, I would suggest without tokenizing, either, and I feel like, you know, in some ways, we need to be very cognizant of this endurance sport community, because, you know, here's the thing, Lisa, is that oftentimes, people check out of ally ship because they feel like if they can't do it perfectly, they'd rather not do it at all. And so we see, you know, the perfectionism of ally ship where people are silent. They want to, they don't want to do anything, they don't want to say anything, they don't want to be supportive, etc. What I would suggest is, I think all of us have, you know, that buddy that we love to see in our tri club or that person that is, that may not share our identity, but they're also in endurance sport that we see on a regular basis. You probably have no idea some of the challenges that those individuals have even as they train and or race, make sure that you're touching base with them and continuing to number one, support them even when you don't see it, but especially when you do see the foolishness pop off. What are you doing to be supportive of those individuals because it's probably happening all around you and you don't even think about it. Lisa I'm remembering one time. A real quick story as we were leaving our open water swim which is in a relatively affluent area. of town that's predominantly white. And, you know, three black women and one white woman are walking back from the water to our cars. And a white gentleman kind of looks at us really weird and says, you know, What are y'all doing down here? Now, mind you, we come every Sunday and have been coming for years. But questioning why we're here. And questioning, why would we go out there and swim in that water by ourselves. And he's looking directly at the three of us as black women, but never once even glances at the white woman in our group. And the white woman says, Oh, hey, Bob, I don't know that that's his name or not, but she calls the person by name because they knew each other, or were at least associates. Oh, hey, Bob, you know, these are, these are my buddies, we come swim down here almost every Sunday. And so she kind of calls out the foolishness, without the three of us having to say anything. And I know that sounds really small, but it was a micro aggression that happened in the moment that we deal with all the time, number one. But secondly, this person had an opportunity to witness secondhand oppression and to interrupt it at the very same time, may not have done it perfectly, but still did not shy away from that particular situation. How many of us are just like, Okay, let's just swim-bike-run, go to the house, and we're done. And that's it. And our entire endurance lives don't have anything to do with oppression. And I would strongly suggest to the contrary, you may think you're not encountering secondhand oppression. But I guarantee you, it's around you much more than you would have ever imagined. It's just a matter of being aware and cognizant of it. Lisa?

Yeah. And I don't think you need to be in a romantic or intimate relationship with someone who's different from you to have that level of empathy, right? I mean, we're talking of many examples, by multiracial couples in the spotlight, and speculating as to what that might mean, or have taught the white people in that scenario. But I think that level of intimacy isn't required, right for white people, or for men to interrupt those microaggressions or to grow and learn and be empathetic to experiences of people who are marginalized in sport, like, you just don't need that. And I think some white people probably shy away because they feel “well, I don't really know that person very well”. You know, and in some places where it's like an it depends situation, right. In some cases, you rolling in and interfering if you don't really know the person very well could be problematic, but, you know, difficult for us to probably like detail every single scenario where that might be the case. You have to kind of use your best judgment, I think, but use your judgment, right. Don't ignore it.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. Absolutely. All right, Lisa, don't we have a hell yeah. And I held off for today. Sure. Do. Hell yeah. Hell nah. All right. Well, I will pop in with the Hell yeah, that I'm always excited about. Let me be clear, this one is an interesting one, Lisa, because we've we've mentioned two things in the past. We've mentioned Dawn Staley in the past, and we've also mentioned female coaches being criticized for attire. Right, we've mentioned both of those. Yeah. So I almost want to mention this as a more of a Hell yeah, with a little bit of Hell Nah, is that Dawn Staley, we are thrilled that the Gamecocks once again, went to another championship. So two time NCAA division one tournament champ 2017, and 2020. To anyone who's very familiar with Don Staley’s background as a player and as a coach know that she is highly decorated. You know, six times WNBA all-star of course Naismith college Player of the Year twice, in 91 and 92, back to back, you know, on and on and on with her resume, of course, AP National Coach of the Year, five times SCC Coach of the Year, I mean, just on and on and on. And so we're thrilled for Coach Staley and her team in regards to their recent championship. And let me tell you, what's very cool about Dawn Staley, too is that a lot of people on social media especially on Twitter, were posting Dawn as she was coaching and noting her attire and what she wore at the game. She wore a green Louis Vuitton varsity jacket which let me just say I'm usually not impressed with the tire but this jacket is slamming and the Louis baton jacket based on the website a A jacket valued at $4850 bucks, along with the matching boots, Lisa, for $1,100. Right. Now, let me just be clear, Dawn Staley can do what she whatever she wants to do, okay, she can do what she wants to do at anytime at any place. And she gets even more credibility here because, you know she keeps heading to the championship. So given that I thought it was so interesting that they highlighted not only the win, but also her attire that night. So I don't know if everyone's just gonna run out and go get a $4,800 jacket off the Louis Vuitton website right now. But I think she's cool as an individual. She does what she wants to do. She has that type-A strong personality that clearly shows why she's a coach. And we're just really proud of Dawn Staley continuing to lead and leading amongst all coaches, not just from one particular gender so fantastic for you, Dawn Staley.

Yeah, and I guess Shame on you for people who are commenting on her outfit, because you absolutely would not have done that for a dude.

I don't think they talked about Coach K's anything. Okay?

Nope, none of that. so? Okay, so that's mostly Hell yeah, with a little sliver of a hell no, and now belong hell now is it came to our attention that a teacher music teacher in Kentucky, had written outside their classroom or in their classroom, a comment, saying, you are free to be yourself with me, you matter. And I guess this comment posted in his classroom or outside of their classroom was controversial. And allegedly, he has received threats of violence. And it caused quite the ruckus among parents that felt that it was inappropriate for this teacher to share such a message combined with apparently having discussions that were outside of the music curriculum in the class. And so he has since resigned, he hasn't made any public announcements yet, as I understand. But so it's a developing story. So certainly things might change. But it sounds like the school board is in support of his resignation. Feeling that it is inappropriate for any teacher to deviate from the written curriculum that is designated for that day. But as we all know, in reality, teachers are not usually following curriculum by the letter because of student questions or other issues that might be coming up in the classroom that necessitate being addressed. And, you know, wanting to encourage students and help them feel valued, no matter their identity is is, you know, an integral central part of being a teacher. And so the fact that he needs to resign, and we don't know whether that was a voluntary resignation, or whether he was pressured, that is not clear at this point. But the fact that we're seeing these issues arising more and more frequently in education with a number of educators who are looking to create inclusive classrooms losing their opportunity to do so because of backlash is extremely troubling. So big old hell no, there.

And Lisa, just, you know, to your point. Usually, it's so interesting to me that the backlash is quite a bit more shameful than that, which they're protesting. You know, I don't see why anyone should be threatened with anything, because of their point of view. It's just a damn shame. I usually get so frustrated with the backlash. Because, you know, here we go saying, Oh, we don't want you teaching certain topics to our kids, but we're willing to threaten you your livelihood. Who knows if this teacher had a family or you know, children, what not, other people to consider. And now they have to live in a little bit of fear because of people not agreeing with them teaching. So yeah, this this is disheartening. Huge hell nah. Yet we continue to see it, right?

Yes, and for whatever reason, I've just remembered another hell nah. So this is hell nah B, which is the trans exclusive sports bills are still rolling out of across the country, and I believe Oklahoma and Alabama were the most recent states to pass really restrictive laws related to turn trans children's participation in youth sports and also their ability to access medical care and determine how they would like to move forward with their gender identity. I think in one of those states it was perhaps made a felony for a minor to go through surgery or something I'm not remembering exactly but that was a pretty big issue 2021 And it has continued strong into 2022 so please be mindful. Please advocate and pay attention to the news so that you can make sure you know what's happening and push back because we need to make endurance sport more trans, inclusive, not less. Unphased, a podcast produced by Live Feisty Media and supported by the outspoken women in triathlon Summit.

Edited and produced by the fabulous Amelia Perry.

Email us at info@unphasedpodcast.com and find us on social @tritodefi @doctorgoldspeaks or at @outspokenwomenintri. I'm Lisa.

I'm Shaunna thanks for listening. Stay Unphased, folks. See you next time.