Grief isn't just through death - it can be through the loss of something, perhaps that something is the loss of ourselves through the experience of trauma, or perhaps the safety of the world we thought we knew...

In this episode host Bianca Welsh speaks with Tom Moir, a Detective Senior Constable with Tasmania Police, having joined in 2014 at the age of 19. He investigates some of Northern Tasmania's most serious drug and firearm offenders. In 2020, Tom was diagnosed with complex PTSD, severe depression and anxiety, largely as a result of repeat exposure to a range of traumatic incidences, the toll of which nearly claimed his life.

Tom bravely delves into his personal journey through complex PTSD, severe depression, and anxiety, largely resultant from his profession. Tom candidly discusses his experiences with grief, trauma, and the subsequent healing process, highlighting the importance of therapies like EMDR. The discussion emphasizes the stigma around male vulnerability, the necessity of compassionate self-care, and the remarkable strength found in vulnerability.

Complementing this conversation, Dr. Mai Frandsen provides a psychological perspective on trauma, grief, and various therapeutic methods.

Music: “Denali” by Bryant Lowry.

Written by Bryant Richard Lowry (BMI).

Published by Boss Soundstripe Productions (BMI).

Licensed via Soundstripe Inc.

Cover Image: Eden Wilday

Follow: @fromexperience_ or @biancaleewelsh

Website: fromexperience.co

Resources

Tasmania:

A Tasmanian Lifeline

Access Mental Health Helpline

Alcohol and Drug Information Service (ADIS) Tas - PH 1800 811 994

National:

Beyond Blue PH: 1300 224 636

StandBy Support After Suicide PH: 1300 727 247

Suicide Call Back Service PH: 1300 659 467

Mensline Australia PH: 1300 789 978

Mental Health Families and Friends

A carer network for families and friends support someone with their mental ill health, access phone support and referrals 9-5pm weekdays.

EMDR - what is it?

Yoga for Trauma - Hobart

Yoga for Trauma - Launceston - Burnie

Mental Health First Aid

David Kessler - Grief.com

Gabor Maté - ADHD, addiction, trauma expert

Dr. Frank Anderson - IFS and trauma expert

Neurofeedback - what is it?

[00:00:31] Bianca: This episode is dedicated to the great work of Movember the leading charity, changing the face of men's health. After recognizing the need for advocacy work, especially amongst first responders, Tom was brought on as a Movember community ambassador in 2024, after first taking part in 2020 during his own mental health crisis, which almost claimed his life. The Movember community was there for Tom when he needed it, and he's incredibly proud to represent the great work they're doing for Men's Health globally. Links to Movember and all [00:01:00] supports mentioned are in the show notes.

[00:01:25] Bianca: So why would I do a grief podcast? What might I add to the vast podcast world? I'll provide you with stories that might help you feel seen, feel less alone in what you're experiencing or have experienced perhaps an idea on how to navigate the healing journey because there's no playbook for grief. There's no guide. We all grieve differently, thus we all heal differently. Perhaps you're helping support someone on their grief and loss journey. Maybe you are just curious about how some people overcome the worst time of their lives. The thing with grief is that this is the one given in life. It is the one [00:02:00] thing we will all experience at some point, the loss of someone or something that we love. As the great wordsmith and musician that is Nick Cave quotes in a letter to a fellow Griever "if we love, we grieve. That's the deal. That's the pact. Grief and love are forever intertwined. Grief is the terrible reminder of the depths of our love and like love grief is non-negotiable." End quote. Yet we rarely talk about it in the western world. We're never prepared for it, but perhaps we can never be prepared for it. I wasn't, but I hope if we were more open to talking about it and aware of other people's journeys and stories we might feel less alone in the dark depths of grief, and perhaps the healing journey might not feel as daunting.

[00:03:03] Bianca: I acknowledge the Tasmanian Aboriginal people as the original owners of this island, Trowunna Lutruwita Tasmania, I'm on the country where the Tyrrenoterpanner, Panninher and Leetermairreener clans of the Stony Creek Nation converged. I pay my respects to elders past and present and recognize the deep connection to the land and waterways.

[00:03:36]

[00:04:10] Bianca: That same year, he took part in his first Movember campaign, shedding some light on his battles and raising funds for the charity in the process. Undoubtedly, it was a cry for help in the years that followed, and with much work, Tom ultimately recovered from his diagnosis. He is a passionate mental health advocate and proud Movember community ambassador.

[00:04:33] Tom: Good afternoon.

[00:04:54] Bianca: You lose something, there's a loss of something in a trauma. [00:05:00] Uh, for me, I lost the safety of my body and had to grieve the loss of the world I once knew the trauma through losing our son, and because it happened in utero, I felt it, it happened inside of my body. And so that was quite a grief process for me in the trauma element, aside from the grief of losing our son.

[00:05:57] Tom: Yeah so it's a, has been quite a [00:06:00] journey for me. the concept of grief for me as a police officer is, uh, is something that I don't think is given enough thought or I suppose credit for just how much of it we surround ourselves with. How much of it I've surrounded myself with over the last 10 or so years.

[00:07:20] Tom: And for better or worse, a lot of it for better the growth that comes out of that and came out that was tough. Um, but a really important part of my healing was, was grieving a version of myself that suffered a lot, really struggled and wasn't very kind to himself. And that's a version of me that I, I grieve and have a lot of of love for.

[00:07:57] Tom: Yeah, I suppose it it wasn't [00:08:00] immediately clear to me at all. I guess for me, I started to really unwind after 2018 a, an event there where I found a colleague that had committed suicide. I was already battling with a few things at that point, whether I'd accepted that or not, I don't believe I had, but I'd been the victim of some, some pretty heavy assaults at work and was struggling with a, with trauma related to, to violence and the like, and then had a new type that I had to, I guess start to process being a grief and a completely different scope of trauma, I suppose. It took a couple of years for me to, to really hit, I suppose my downside or my low point. And that came with the diagnosis of complex PTSD, severe depression and anxiety, which was hard for me to accept. Not surprised at all. And I think I'd fought against that for a long time to accept that based off the events that I'd experienced firsthand that I was affected by [00:09:00] those to such an extreme way.

[00:10:17] Bianca: And do you wish, in hindsight, that you had known how to give yourself compassion and empathy? And in a way, would it have been a somewhat preventative, or at least a proactive or gentler way to get through some of those really tough times that you've witnessed some really awful stuff?

[00:11:38] Bianca: Yeah. And is that innately a male thing and is that. Part of why you love being involved with what you do, even though it is very hard and, and confronting such as the Movember stuff.

[00:11:56] Tom: We, we aren't good at talking and we [00:12:00] are very solution based, I feel, whereas someone in, in those situations, when I did try and open up about it and talk I could tell I made my mates uncomfortable. Um, very lucky to have support networks and, and community outside of my job. I think that's incredibly important, but I felt I made them uncomfortable and I then withdrew, I suppose, which only delayed my ability to recover and really come forward, I guess with my recovery. I don't think enough males certainly then were talking and then that's compounded even more, I believe in the emergency services, or at least my experience in the police, is that layer again is multiplied of our fear of showing weakness or vulnerability.

[00:13:01] Bianca: And I love that. I find that so incredible for a male, a person in the industry that you are in to say that is really brave.

[00:13:35] Tom: Yeah, absolutely. This is a version of me that I did grieve, I guess as we've spoken about before, is that I was trying to get help. I didn't know what I was trying to get help for. I just knew that my body wasn't something wasn't right with me really early on.

[00:14:13] Tom: So I went to the GP to basically talk about that and really looking back on that, I had some pretty strong signs of anxiety, whether that was due to going to work or, personal life, it was pretty obvious looking back on it, that's what I was experiencing. And I guess didn't have the conversation I probably needed to with that gP or two different gps, that the questions weren't asked of me, to go down that avenue of something I wasn't really aware of. I got some anti nausea tablets and on a couple of occasions and was sent off and, you know, that's over a 12 month period where I was trying to get help for something that, um, I guess misdiagnosed or whatever you'd like to call it.

[00:15:11] Tom: You know, another symptom for me was my deteriorating self-worth and that compassion and, and any sort of love for myself just eroded. And so I didn't feel like I was worthy of their care and attention. I pushed a lot of people away and then that turned into, yeah, doing it, thinking I'll protect them if I was to keep getting worse and I guess eventually take my life.

[00:16:07] Bianca: It terrifies me, the GP part of the beginning of that, that you went to two different ones and neither asked the right question.

[00:16:32] Tom: Oh, definitely. And if, if it hadn't have been that moment, if the, if the questions had have been asked 'cause I, I was at a point where I was probably in a fair bit of denial too, but I know I would've been able to answer those. They would've started looking at things a bit differently and the very least that conversation would've helped sew that seed in my mind too that I would've come to the realization sooner that there was more at play here than just a upset stomach for no other apparent reason. And I think a lot of that comes [00:17:00] down to the human element is the individual and I, I went through a lot of gps with different medications and the like, before I really found one that I think really got it. Which if it was the case where it didn't come down so much so that the human that you behind it and there was a bit more awareness and training it really, it really could have benefited me at that point in my life.

[00:17:40] Bianca: I mean, you'll find research articles that will show that it accounts for as much, if not more than medication. If you don't connect with that person, you're best to move on and find the, the next one that is the right fit. But sadly, that takes effort. It takes time, it takes money. Um, we are all looking for a [00:18:00] quick fix.

[00:18:19] Tom: I think this woman can save my life. Um the the first one I saw when I finally went, okay, this job was bad enough that I have to see someone after this. There'd been plenty before, but this was, this was a point for me or went I've gotta try on this time. And after that appointment it ended after 45 minutes of me relaying everything that had happened in that incident.

[00:19:02] Tom: Um, yeah, I'll, I'll send you a text in a few weeks and see if we need another appointment. And then he goes, oh, before you leave here I'll just set a reminder in my calendar to send you that text. And that was my first attempt at getting help. And I went and sat in my car, after that and just thought, um, yeah, I'm, I'm done here. I think, um, if that's what help is, I don't want it. Basically whatever happens for me happens. And luckily for me whether it's the stubbornness in me or not, but all the people around me that I knew I needed to keep trying for their sake. 'cause it certainly wasn't doing it for my own benefit because I didn't really care for myself as things progressed, was I kept trying.

[00:19:51] Bianca: And it blows my mind that there are psychologists out there that don't understand trauma or what's called [00:20:00] alexithymia showing no emotion, almost having no affect. And the psychology world now knows that in trauma, our brains will easily dissociate. There's a disconnect of our brain to our body, which is why, and i'll ask questions later about some of the healing modalities that have been helpful for you, but they're often found in things that will connect the body to the brain again.

[00:21:36] Tom: Yeah. In those, I suppose really critical incidents where shit hits the fan, I suppose. And, uh at a certain point would've really in the moment, I was always really quite good and I choose to think high functioning and, and did a, the best job I could. But now it was after the fact that it would really hit me [00:22:00] and for days or weeks, I could just be a different version of myself.

[00:22:23] Tom: And in that aftermath for me it's more how you deal with it immediately following it that it makes the biggest difference in my recovery or not letting it become a another trauma. And I, I guess I really got to test this. I was really starting to make good progress in my therapy, and went to something that was by far the worst thing I've ever, ever experienced.

[00:23:37] Tom: Like I know maybe having a drink instead of just, I guess sitting with it and actually processing what I'd experienced or not talking to the people around me about it that had either experienced it or my partner or family actually going through and doing all of those things. And within a couple of weeks I was able to sit with [00:24:00] what had happened and you don't forget it, you don't move on. But I can live with it and that was a real turning point for me and going, okay, I think I can stick with this. And I think others need to know that you can, you can get help and you can process completely abnormal things that you shouldn't have to experience, but it's the nature of the job without it taking control of your life.

[00:24:57] Bianca: And ultimately, [00:25:00] and this is the very basic abridged version, simplified version, is that to heal trauma, you need to be with it and not in it. You almost need to sit beside it whereas grief, you've gotta feel the feels. You've gotta let that sadness and loss and pain be felt, but then how difficult is it to ascertain what is the trauma and what is the grief?

[00:25:45] Tom: Yeah. That's, yeah, that's an amazing way of putting it really. It's, I think that pretty much hits it right on the head. You've gotta feel like if, if you don't, which I, you know, I tried so hard to suppress those emotions for, for so long. And [00:26:00] being that the sadness and the shock or the things you, you pick up from certain jobs that it only compounded that trauma quite significantly. Whereas it doesn't happen often but if you, if you need to grieve or feel those emotions after a job, yes, there's a time and place if you obviously don't wanna be doing it in the situation for the sake of those that you do need to show that strength for, or, you know, be it the family or similar.

[00:26:59] Bianca: And I [00:27:00] know in my experience, and perhaps it is uh, maybe different as in different settings. And maybe you're right maybe it's not always professional or right for the family, but I know in my experience, knowing how impacted the professionals were with our situation, that that they shed a tear actually meant so much to me.

[00:27:44] Bianca: And I know that in the awful circumstance of the jumping castle incident here in Tasmania, in the northwest and seeing the pictures of the police, the emergency service workers and how moved they were. I know that, that hit the hearts of [00:28:00] everyone around the world. And so I think to have that allowance for you to show that emotion to some, to some families in the appropriate moment, I think would actually be incredible to their experience.

[00:28:31] Bianca: And it's often having to deal with professionals and emergency service workers that can sway things either way, it could actually traumatize people more or actually allow them to begin to heal. So I imagine, I know if it was me and a, a situation and I saw a police officer shed a tear. I think it'd be really moving.

[00:29:20] Tom: We've, we found his teenage daughter after she'd, she'd passed away. You don't just get to let go of that moment and experience. And to the showing the care throughout the process too is, you know, I then for the next few months was, I suppose responsible for investigating how that took place and a lot of time with the family and something that is so important to them, trying to find an answer whether that's possible or not, to give them the best chance of any sort of closure is a privilege for us to be able to do that and to be thanked by them at the end, um, very emotionally, for how I [00:30:00] was with them through that experience. It's, it's moments like that that are reminders of why you do this job. It's a real privilege.

[00:30:36] Tom: Yeah. Thank you. Um, yeah, it's, uh, it's amazing. Um, I suppose what happens in those moments, and I trust that, he would've done the same for me if he had have been there first. It's at that point in my life, I still I had young nieces and nephews the same age, and his little girls were [00:31:00] as well. Any chance we have to look after one another and protect someone from experiencing such traumas, I think, we need to take.

[00:31:35] Tom: I just knew there must be something going on with with him. I wanted to talk to him about getting him into, to potentially see a psych and get some help. We're out doing that when this job came in just around the corner and all of a sudden we're thrust into the midst of,

[00:31:48] Tom: Um, yeah, something quite horrific.

[00:31:58] Bianca: it's how the cards fell that day.

[00:32:16] Tom: It's, it just spoke about to, to know that you do have stuff to fall back on and you can work through it. That was what I tested it out on. And that, after that, I, I strongly believe that there wasn't much else I wouldn't be able to work through. And I can't say the same for him, obviously, without having that conversation to try and get him some help, but.

[00:32:59] Bianca: and I [00:33:00] think conversations can save a life and those taboo topics is the whole purpose of why I'm doing this we need to talk about more. And so my next question is about one of the really hard parts of your journey was the suicidal ideation. I just love if, if you feel comfortable to talk a bit more about that.

[00:34:23] Tom: Um, just holding that to my head. I was working in a small country station and it wasn't loaded. Um, I just needed to know what it felt like and it, it didn't feel like anything. I was just numb. Um, got in the car to go home and thought, yeah, that, that was stupid. I'll, I'll never do that again. And then a matter of months later I was doing it, but with, with a loaded pistol at that time.

[00:35:01] Tom: Um, and that just comes back to, I, I didn't care about myself, but I just, I still had this deep care of others. Um, and thank God he was working the next day because that's what stopped me. And then it's the every day, I suppose there was, there was some sort of consideration thought to, to going down that path and it just, it was no real way to live.

[00:36:07] Tom: That's, that's dangerous. It's not healthy and point me in a different direction. So I just thought I had nothing else to live for or, or to give in getting better, you know, medication and bad therapy, and some other toxic coping mechanisms that I developed. And yeah, it was, it was a real low rock bottom for me.

[00:36:45] Tom: Yeah. Thank, thank you. And so am I. Um, this is the version of me that I've grieved for. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:23] Bianca: What was the thing that got you through day to day, hour by hour? Like, how were you able to hold on? To then finally find the right therapist and the right help.

[00:39:00] Tom: I started to have some conversations that maybe what I was experiencing in my psychologist and the like, and the GP at that point weren't okay, or they, I could do better. It's just a real drive I think for me was just to get better for the others in my life, not for myself. 'Cause that that love wasn't there yet.

[00:39:41] Tom: Yeah.

[00:40:12] Tom: If they're, they're doing the things that, to them seem like they, I suppose you should be getting better over time and it's just not obviously occurring then for me, the biggest learning, if you're not making the progress or it doesn't feel right, is that it's time to move on and try something different. Your life is worth more than just persevering with something that isn't working especially in that mental space is a really dangerous place to be. 'Cause that just the longer that drags on for it dragged on for me without any sort of progress or actually just regression, I suppose getting worse. The lower your self-esteem, the lower your drive to do anything about it is. The sooner we can try something different, the better.

[00:41:16] Tom: It was just, we're really worried about you. We need you to know that. But that just fed that, anxiety of in me. I guess, ask those hard questions, that really once you say it out loud, aren't that hard. Is are you thinking of harming yourself, are you suicidal?

[00:41:54] Bianca: That's so great to hear.

[00:42:12] Tom: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It is. And, and that I really feel asking those questions and whether it is, are you suicidal or have you, you think about harming yourself or are you o are you okay? It opens up a much better conversation, or potential conversation to progress to somewhere than just expressing concerns, I suppose, or just not being confident enough to talk to them. If you think they're feeling that way, there's a fair chance they probably are. It's someone you know really well, and you've seen over time that change if it's a loved one or friend there's a fair chance you're on the money there if you know them. So that question really could save their life or very real turning point in them going, I'm actually not, I I think I need to do something about this.

[00:43:15] Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And for the person asking it too, you have to be prepared for what comes next, but you just have to take it where I think that person needs it to go. Just trying to take that where they need it to without you being the one to give them answers or solutions, I think is, is men in particular from my experiences, very solution base where you need to, you know, do you need to quit your job or you need to leave your partner, or you need to do all this, this and this. That's not what that person needs to hear. They don't need your idea of whatever's happening in their life. It was this like, it's some easy quick fix to, to just get rid of everything. They just need you to listen.

[00:45:03] Tom: Yeah, absolutely. And when I was at those points, I wasn't thinking of my, my parents or anyone in my life that I loved or needed to be here for. I was so consumed by those thoughts that nothing else made sense other than the fact that I just need this to end. The fact he's able to tell you he's feeling that way is incredible. It shows how much love he has from my perspective, how much love he has for you guys. It is such an isolating place to be where that can feel like a rational and solution to the problem, really. 'cause it's so far from it. It's tough and, that that version of me never got to tell anyone that, and I wish I had of, because I think that would've really helped me to be able to say that and that's, yeah, I think that's a measure of strength [00:46:00] too.

[00:46:19] Bianca: It is, and it's really hard to receive the answer if you are brave enough to ask someone you are concerned about, for them to say, yes, I am. And it is really hard. I know for me, I wanna jump into solution mode with my degree and my knowledge. And, I don't know it all, but in that moment I sort of think I know it all and I think that I can, right, let's do this.

[00:46:51] Tom: Yeah. I absolutely, and I, I think that from that in time comes the ability for you to have those solutions [00:47:00] and work out the plan. It's not in that moment, is it?

[00:47:18] Bianca: Thanks.

[00:47:51] Bianca: Is that quite a difficult thing to grapple with?

[00:48:33] Tom: And you, you take in all these details and the emotion and it can be really hard to not to let that affect you. And sometimes it does. And there's, I think we get good, probably not the right word, but at separating ourselves from the human and or the emotional side of it to just as like a coping mechanism of survival tactic for our own mental health.

[00:49:51] Bianca: And do you feel in turn that that is why you're so good? I dunno if good's the right word, either at dissociating and putting up that [00:50:00] barrier because you have to professionally do that almost every single day that you're then that's why you're so good at it with yourself is that you've almost built this wall around your self self.

[00:50:30] Tom: Around myself self, um, where yeah, you have to just to protect you that at the end of that day goes home and has to have conversations, normal conversations or, you know, go to the supermarket and just live your life outside of your job because you you live, work to, to live. I don't, you know, live to work.

[00:51:17] Tom: I didn't know anymore where I was or where the line was of me and what I should feel. And I think a lot of that came from just building up these walls over time and, and forgetting or never really learning as someone that joins so young without life experience, how to process grief or stress or all these emotions that can really bring you unstuck.

[00:51:51] Tom: Yeah. Um, uh, EMDR for me was a massive saving grace and it's, [00:52:00] it alone, I needed to do a lot of work around it too, but EMDR was probably the single biggest thing that took all the rough edges off for me.

[00:52:39] Tom: And we worked through countless traumas that the beauty of EMDR is you peel back the obvious ones and you work through those. It uncovers ones that I never gave myself credit for, actually did affect me in, in both my personal life and work life and uncovered countless different things that had actually been a trauma to me.

[00:53:16] Tom: They might still make me sad. They might still upset me in different ways because they are upsetting things, but they're not traumas anymore. It's, it was amazing stuff.

[00:53:53] Tom: Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a roller coaster. I think from the beginning with EMDR, [00:54:00] like my natural reaction was to fight against it because like you say, it feels like it's a voodoo. Like you, you're following movement with your eyes or or similar sort of vibrations with your hands and it just doesn't feel like it should ever work. You're not saying much. There's not a lot of talk involved, which is really good, I feel for a lot of people, especially when you're not that comfortable talking. It's and in the incident, say the a, a suicide that I had to work on I, you basically try and work through the trauma to find where the most disturbance is in that, to know what to work on so you can start to process that part of the memory.

[00:55:02] Tom: Um, I just wasn't getting through it. With this one, I was, the more we tried to just keep working on it, I was getting further and further away from feeling like I was gonna be able to work through it. And after a while, essentially each time you reset, you base Dee would ask what are you thinking now?

[00:55:44] Tom: And this is, um. Uh, this, this is right at a, a turning point of my trauma as far as where it became really deep seated was, yeah, I showed emotion. That scene actually threw up. And I was so hard on myself after that [00:56:00] and that was what I needed to work through.

[00:56:17] Bianca: And actually there's a part in our brain that they've found the front Broca's aphasia that actually disconnects from the brain in certain traumatic experiences. And depending on your biopsychosocial makeup, depending on how you're feeling on the day in a traumatic scenario, your broca's aphasia in the prefrontal cortex were almost shut down.

[00:57:42] Tom: Yeah. Um, yeah. The, the effect, but then the effect I had on myself, I think was the biggest part. And yeah, it, it was this real turning point for me as far as, with Dee being aware of, I've been so critical of [00:58:00] myself at points of showing emotion and not being able to get in and in that moment, I, to me, I failed. I didn't hold it together and do my job well. I was a failure, whereas no, I was, I was upset.

[00:58:37] Tom: Yep. Um, was, yeah, that moment of going, yeah, I've struggled with this incident, but the reason I haven't been able to really move on from it it is because it's shaped how I've treated myself for years. Um, and that was such a great

[00:58:55] Tom: Yeah, no, thank you. It's, that's, to me, that's showed the value of EMDR and we've [00:59:00] worked on it many things since, the, the incident we're talking about before, where I got to test how therapy worked for me, if it, if it was really something that could keep me in this job and, I was doing a EMDR that same afternoon and you know, a few days later.

[00:59:30] Bianca: So powerful. Would you say you are not symptomatic from complex PTSD at the moment because of that therapy.

[01:00:26] Bianca: What are some things that haven't worked for you?

[01:00:33] Bianca: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:57] Bianca: Did you feel right back in that moment?

[01:01:05] Bianca: Mm-hmm. And that's the, the scary thing with trauma is that our brains almost lock into being right back there. Yeah. Our brain tricks tricks it into being right back in that, and that we're almost trapped. And then it'll keep on repeat unless we start doing those sort of healing things.

[01:01:44] Tom: The other psychologist was doing a lot of neurofeedback, which was incredibly dangerous. Um, and a little bit of talk therapy, yeah, that was not, not good for me. There was the which we won't go into too much, I think the antidepressants and the like served a purpose for me at a point because [01:02:00] the other things weren't happening to smooth the edges around, my symptoms.

[01:02:24] Tom: There was medication to sleep, that sort of stuff. So my quality of sleep wasn't there, but a lot of them necessary things at that point, I think, 'cause the, the fundamentals weren't there, but they were never gonna fix me long term with what I was experiencing. I did a bit of like trauma informed yoga, which actually was probably in those really bad moments, was one of the better things that I did.

[01:03:09] Tom: I did get diagnosed with ADHD sort of on the tail end of my recovery, which never would've been a consideration for me or my family growing up with, I guess, how things had progressed as far as what ADHD looks like and seeking, I guess treatment, medication for that has helped.

[01:03:33] Bianca: We could do many, many episodes, I think on ADHD. Have you seen Gabor Mate's take on ADHD?

[01:03:42] Bianca: I think it's really interesting for those that are diagnosed as adult ADHD, his take on it, and this is a very simplified version, is it's more a coping mechanism. Because when you're in a traumatic situation, you often can't escape it.

[01:04:21] Bianca: You're gonna start to distract yourself. You're gonna almost dissociate and think about other things while you're having to live it. So I think it's really interesting to think about that as being diagnosed with adult ADHD . It's just a lot, it's a lot to think about and process.

[01:04:59] Tom: [01:05:00] from the, the trauma side of things, it meant I didn't switch off from the negativity in my life. I didn't get any reprieve. I, I couldn't sleep because my mind wouldn't stop. My mind wasn't interested in anything. I really struggled to have hobbies, interest passions at all at that point in my life.

[01:06:03] Tom: But it also did gimme this ridiculous drive just to wake up each day, go to work, do well, not show anyone that I was struggling, go home or fall apart. It's pushed me through a lot and I'm actually quite grateful for it.

[01:06:23] Bianca: And in your circumstance, and I think especially in hospitality, it's sort of like. Is it the chicken before the egg? Which is the first thing, because I think if you have that neurodiversity, you are drawn to more dynamic workplaces. So you're probably more drawn to work in a crazy kitchen with a million things going on, different pots and dockets and things.

[01:07:05] Bianca: The attention deficit part I think a lot of people have focused on, especially when I was in school, that it's a distraction, but actually it's a hyper focus and you can't choose what you hyperfocus on. So I think in dynamic industries like hospitality and, and police force you don't get the choice.

[01:07:48] Bianca: And I don't have time to go through the list of all the things right now, but he'll throw everything at it to try to feel better. And I, I find now looking back, that that was actually a hyperfocus moment or or time in [01:08:00] his life.

[01:08:09] Tom: And I know there's a lot of people that I work with that now that I'm aware he can go. The people that are really good in chaos, a lot of them. It's the menial, the mundane tasks is where I might falter. It's when things hit the fan and it's chaotic that's when we, a lot of us come into our own.

[01:08:37] Bianca: Definitely. But then I guess there's, when that comes with acceptance or when you've got that diagnosis, I know a lot of people will experience a grief in that going, oh, if I'd been diagnosed with this earlier and had I been medicated earlier, or had I had tools in my toolbox to deal with this earlier, well how different would my life look?

[01:08:59] Tom: Yeah. [01:09:00] I, I haven't with this one really, I actually the timing of it all in my life I found out, he won't mind me saying this through my brother who I think went through a different maybe that type of reaction to it. And he was quite reluctant to tell me because he thought, oh, maybe the conversation was a bit awkward.

[01:09:47] Tom: Like I'm, I'm still not, not in the same ways at all, but just not as easy as I feel it could be. And so I jumped at the opportunity and didn't look back on my life, I guess with moments where I would've been [01:10:00] better for knowing. Necessarily. I know I had to try way too hard at school and luckily did well, but I think school was my hyper focus or doing well was I just wanted to please, I think growing up, and that was an area where I felt I could, so tried a lot harder than I probably would've liked to, but, so it didn't really negatively affect me.

[01:10:40] Bianca: That's wonderful to hear.

[01:10:43] Bianca: Tom, is there anything else that you wanted to share that has helped you in your journey?

[01:11:24] Tom: I'm still working as things are gonna keep happening. But yeah, can't underestimate the power of a good conversation. But also I guess just the ability to put a positive on such a dark time for me, I've personally found really helpful and seeing the way it's been, how to empower others around me to do the same, to seek help.

[01:12:07] Bianca: Tom, thank you so much for sharing your story and your journey.

[01:12:12] Tom: Alright, thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks.

[01:12:21] Bianca: Joining me to unpack the last interview is Dr. Mai Fransden. She's a psychologist, health behavior change, consultant and researcher based in Tasmania. She earned her PhD in psychology in 2012 and is internationally recognized for her work in promoting health behavior change using incentives. Dr. Fransden is the owner of Trig Psychology, a private practice located in Tasmania, where she focuses on health behavior change, working with first responders, adolescents, and adults, navigating significant life transitions.

[01:12:57] Bianca: She uses a range of psychological treatment paradigms to [01:13:00] get the best outcome for her clients. In addition to her private practice, Dr. Fransden serves as a psychologist in schools and is an associate researcher at the University of Tasmania. Her research primarily focuses on smoking cessation, particularly among pregnant women, and has led Tasmania wide clinical trials exploring the efficacy of novel incentive based interventions.

[01:13:50] Bianca: Hello Mai.

[01:13:52] Bianca: Welcome. Thank you.

[01:14:13] Bianca: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:41] Mai: And I guess the biggest distinction for me is for most people that I see, when I see grief, I see someone who is very aware that there's been a loss of something. Not always being able to articulate what that loss is, but they're aware that they're sad, that they're [01:15:00] grieving something, something's missing.

[01:15:18] Mai: So I see that, I see that in their presentation. The classic emotions that we associate with that, the sadness, the loss, the the depressive symptoms and all that sort of stuff. And I guess I would say that obviously not all grief presents like that, and it can present as lots of other things. But that's a good sign for me that there's something's missing. So that's a, I guess, a hint. And obviously throughout this podcast you've talked about the absolute complexity of grief and that it's so much more than feeling sad or having lost something. Trauma, I think often with trauma is when it comes up in a session, it's usually not because someone is aware of it.

[01:16:17] Mai: But it's something that comes up in session as something they hadn't even realized was attached to that. It's something that hasn't been processed properly in their past. It's because it was such a unique episode that the emotional, the physiological, the experience of it was fractured in that moment and that they couldn't conceptualize what was going on for them. In all of its entirety. We see this with emergency service workers. We see that of, children of childhood sexual abuse and all that sort of stuff.

[01:16:58] Mai: And I don't think we [01:17:00] necessarily need to know, I think most people, have experiences of both. And, I think just an insight to what it is, whether we need to name it as trauma or grief is, is always that useful.

[01:17:24] Bianca: Frank Anderson, who is a practicing psychiatrist in America, I think he put it really interestingly to me, which kind of helped me frame it up in my mind was that, and this is really, really simplifying it, is that healing trauma and healing grief is different. And my recent, uh, workshop with the great Bessel VanDerKolk, he basically confirmed that they are very different things, but he almost didn't have a, a clear answer either. He basically said, I can't really answer your question because it is so complicated, to heal trauma, you have to be with it and not in [01:18:00] it.

[01:18:22] Bianca: That's so, so intertwined, it is so complicated. So I think it's a really interesting topic to just kind of sit with, I think, and for people to consider which parts are very traumatic and that need to be integrated, and then what parts of their story and journey perhaps need to be healed because I don't think every part of people's journeys can be healed.

[01:19:34] Mai: Yes, absolutely. And just to reflect on Tom's discussion with you, like listening to that, I had such a pang of all sorts of things, including, I was just so angry to hear that he had, you know, for someone, someone to actually come and see a psychologist, most of the time they've reached a place of, for a lot of people because unfortunately of our culture, although it's changing, of feeling like they're almost at the point of giving up, but they'll give it this choice or they [01:20:00] can't work it out themselves or they need help. And so that's such a vulnerable, vulnerable position, right? And then for him to have that experience of, of not getting effective help and support, it's really heartbreaking.

[01:20:33] Mai: So to see that he's able to do that for me, that looks like he recognizes that that was a different time and I'm so so pleased for him that he's able to do that and how important it is to be able to have compassion for that person now. So I think that's a great, I think that grief of, for that person, for that Tom, for that season of his life [01:21:00] is really helpful for him in being able to have that perspective.

[01:21:17] Mai: And it brings me to something that I wanna talk about that Tom brought up. With the benefit, hopefully, of growth and working through a really difficult time in our life, we have regrets or shame or embarrassment, or we wish we had done something differently. Because of what we now know. And I guess I want to reiterate how incredible we were when we were in those moments to even do what we did and to have compassion for that person that you were, and to be gentle on yourself for the decisions you made at the time.

[01:22:08] Mai: We'd talk about fight, flight, and freeze for most of us, that was freezing is the best survival strategy we have at the time. And this comes into some of the other conversations that you've had with these incredible people, for these mega, mega events in our lives.

[01:23:10] Mai: It was whatever adaptive function they had at the time. Now sure there are more healthy adaptive factors and hopefully we can work through that. But I guess my main message there is just to be, if you're in the position of looking back and grieving that part of you and feeling sadness for that part of you to be able to hold that at the same time as having an enormous amount of respect for that person, for doing what they did when really they were totally out of their depth of what resources they felt they had at the time.

[01:24:06] Mai: Such a good point. And in working with emergency responders, I'm just so awe of what they do, but many of the time they are ambos or cops or fireys, whatever, and parents. And brothers and sisters. And so it's not just their workplace, but it's the engaging with various roles that they have.

[01:24:57] Mai: So the stress or whether that be work [01:25:00] stresses or family stresses, relationship stresses, or their role in going to emergencies and really helping them understand, most of us get this, but I think really spelling out the fact that there are stresses that cause a physiological stress response.

[01:25:32] Mai: So the reason we're still alive is because our body pumps us full of chemicals to make us, you know, run, fight, or play dead to get us out of a situation. So thankfully we have no control over that. And the cool thing about it is quite mechanical and that we know that and I think most of us would've felt this, that that absolute shot of adrenaline when something happens. Now that could be a near miss in a car, or that could be your kid throws a ball at your face and you [01:26:00] barely miss it. That sort of stuff. The shot of go juice, if you like, in your body is the same because it's basically an involuntary, parasympathetic, apathetic response to, to get out of there, get outta danger.

[01:26:39] Mai: If something is impacting you immensely, but you're about to go to the next job, or the example I give is, let's say you're home caring for your kids and you receive a phone call that absolutely floors you, you've received some bad news. You can't, in that instance break down and cry and crawl under a blanket because [01:27:00] there are kids in the house that look up to you for safety and protection. So it's not safe to allow yourself to feel that emotional, or it might not be socially acceptable to get up and punch the person in the face in the cafeteria because they're a complete jerk. Or the one we see so much is that we have grown up being told that it's not nice for women to get angry and assert themselves in a workplace. So we re repress these responses. Now, that's an adaptive reason because otherwise we would get in trouble or get hurt or whatever. But what happens is if we continually deny ourselves the ability to feel, to complete the stress response cycle, it builds up. It builds up, it builds up. So when working with emergency service providers or someone who's dealing with chronic stress and they come to see me, it's really just going back to those basics of going where in your day, if we have to stretch it, where in your week are you able to release that? Because it is a physiological response. And so because of [01:28:00] that, usually it's exercise or moving your body that allows you to, to complete that and to get that out. Mm-hmm. So once you kind of understand the mechanisms of it I really struggle with the word self-care because I think it's overused and people also because of our culture deny ourselves permission to care for ourselves. So when I've explained all this, what I love to talk is to let's just switch it out. Let's call it self maintenance. And already that change in semantics. It's like, oh, well, we'll maintain our car, you know, we make sure we get a service and all that sort of stuff.

[01:28:44] Mai: And part of that is physiologically meeting your needs, it is exercise and sleep and diet and being able to decompress at the end of the day or during the day. So, yeah, so that's how we work through that.

[01:29:05] Bianca: And I love the car analogy and I use that often as well in my work in that you can't drive on bald tires. You have to put fuel in your car. And if you want to sell the car in the future you have to get it serviced, but we don't do those things for ourself. Going back to talk about, um, Tom's example and how you're right, the social cues he spoke about the response he had at one of the suicides he attended and his physiological response, he, he got very upset and he vomited. And it was actually the shame that he had felt towards himself for responding in a way that his body reacted because of that deep, that reptilian brain, which is where our flight, freeze response lives and for those that don't understand the biological response, that's like the oldest part of our brain. It's deep within just above our brainstem. Um, and correct me if I'm wrong [01:30:00] here, Mai and the prefrontal cortex, it's our youngest part of our brain and it differentiates us from most of the animal world, almost all the animal world. But we have found, and we, I say as in the psychology research world, humans, we humans have found that in stressful and traumatic experiences, the prefrontal cortex will often shut down. It will, it will go offline.

[01:30:23] Mai: goodness, because you can't actually problem solve or rationalize yourself out of a situation when you're under threat. And also because of the complexity and the advanced, if that's a word of the prefrontal cortex and neocortex, is that the pathways are much slower. So we know, thankfully, that the, the bits that it requires to look after our survival, we have no control over they do it immediately. I'm really pleased you reminded me of that part of tom recognizing it was actually his physiological symptoms of gastrointestinal issues and stuff like that that actually sent him to the GP in the first place, but maybe also that permission to go and seek help.

[01:31:38] Mai: And I think one of the reasons with people who are really good at identifying stresses, stress responses, and maybe good at the self-care slash self-maintenance, sometimes because we are so good at it, we don't listen to the cues. So whether that's mental health professionals or medical professionals or emergency service responders, they're usually the [01:32:00] ones that are burning out because their job is to care for others.

[01:32:33] Mai: Because if we go down, then who's gonna look after all these other people in our lives? But of course the irony is if we go down, then we can't look after those. But that's and again, it's not to blame ourselves for that if it does happen, but yeah. That's often why these people come completely broken.

[01:33:02] Bianca: It's such a great point. And having that self-compassion and self-love and allowance mm-hmm.

[01:34:02] Mai: I was just gonna say there were two things there. One about when the reason Tom kept going back and trying to get help, even though he had plenty of reason not to 'cause he wasn't getting great help, was that he felt his protective factors, which we would use in in our risk assessment psych world. His protective factors were he wanted to still be alive for other people. Even when he had lost hope for himself or care for himself, he kept going back to get help because of those other important people in his life. And so the other cool thing about trauma is we know yes, it's in the body and physiologically we need to come back to, to being in our body in that sense and why the body work is so important. But also the next step is physically, socially, connecting with those and actually feeling externally safe with other people.

[01:36:11] Mai: Yeah, they will do it regardless. And so asking the question, we know doesn't change their behavior anyway. But what it does is make them feel heard and understood and not alone. And that fear of being alone and not seen that's the risk factor there. Right. And so I guess the key thing I just wanna get out there, is that sense of you are not responsible. You don't have to fix this. And I think if we just acknowledge that, oh, this is a, this is in an uncomfortable place for me to be, because it is, it is a super uncomfortable place. You are feeling all sorts of things. You're feeling scared, you're feeling sad, you're feeling anxious [01:37:00] about where this person's at.

[01:37:27] Mai: And I think that's all that's needed most of the time.

[01:37:46] Bianca: And so as a friend, a support person, as a colleague, as an acquaintance, of course you're not going to have the answers for someone, but just to sit with them and to sit next to them [01:38:00] while they go through that journey can be what might save a person. It might be what saves a life. And it might be the little boost that they need to get through that chapter of their life.

[01:38:37] Bianca: And whilst there's incredible research out there that shows how effective neurofeedback can be, it wasn't for Tom. And perhaps the way it was delivered was not conducive to what Tom needed. And then how EMDR was really helpful for Tom. And I know lots of people that have had EMDR now and it's been life changing for every single person that I know as long as they're with a [01:39:00] good practitioner, of course. So for those that don't know what either of those are , Mai, could you explain a little bit more about neurofeedback and EMDR?

[01:40:07] Mai: So you do a fair bit of work in the first instance, usually in the way that it's done. You do a lot of work on how do you re-regulate. So whether that's grounding techniques or breath work or whatever so that when you do actually go in and start processing these previous traumas that the psychologist is confident that you can come back out.

[01:40:49] Mai: And usually there is, this event is actually worse because there's been something that's happened in your previous life where you felt like this and then that compounds. So you kind of work out what those [01:41:00] triggers are. And then the therapist supports you as you go back to that moment and feel the feels and so you are in that space. And then the most traditional is to get that person, this is where EMDR, the word where it comes from eye movement, desensitize, I can't even say the word

[01:41:23] Mai: and, yeah.

[01:41:26] Bianca: Reprogramming.

[01:41:51] Mai: So when we are scanning the ground ahead of us, we are helping with the left and right hemispheres of the brain to reorganize thoughts. But for me, the way I understand it [01:42:00] is in a safe space, you're putting yourself back at that time. But as you are allowing yourself, 'cause you feel safe, 'cause you're with someone to rethink about that with your current adult brain that's in a safe space, you are able to process what actually happened and why it might have happened, how it felt.

[01:42:40] Mai: And what that kind of allows you to do is to put all the puzzle pieces together and to reprocess what happened. You're not changing memories and what we, you kind of are, you're not. But is there false memories and stuff like, it's none of this.

[01:43:08] Mai: Until you go through it. But by going back there, by rethinking it, it's really interesting in the days to come. After the session, the psychologist or the therapist will check in with you to see how stressful is that event still from zero to 10, whatever. But it's actually in the days that proceed, the weeks that proceed, where your brain does all the work in the background, nighttime especially, 'cause sometimes you have some really interesting dreams afterwards, where it puts bits together for you.

[01:43:58] Bianca: Yes.

[01:44:26] Bianca: because a therapist essentially only says two statements really, isn't it? It's notice that And what are you feeling now? Is that correct?

[01:45:02] Bianca: I've had people I know have EMDR treatment and it's almost like they are floating above their body and being able to witness what they're working on and reframe it as you said.

[01:45:33] Bianca: And how I guess a lot of adults who have experienced that in their childhood will often say they feel they brought it on themselves. They always have a lot of shame and guilt. Mm. And then in EMDR, they are often able to reprocess it and realize that it was never their fault. They were the child, they were trapped. They couldn't escape. And then they're able to just accept it [01:46:00] more, reintegrate it into who they are because it happened. Mm-hmm.

[01:47:06] Mai: And then once you've kind of processed that and worked your way through that and the distress of it is, has come right down. What is noticed is that the other stressor in your life also drop down and they can take two sessions. That can take 10 sessions, that can take 20 sessions, whatever. But because you've processed that one, it kind of like pulling the thread. Right? And, and then the rest of those you're able to, the impact of the other ones is identified and unraveled, if you like.

[01:47:51] Bianca: And I know he won't mind me talking about this. And then maybe something has come up in life in day-to-day life where his self-worth has been challenged. And it's so [01:48:00] interesting how he can go, oh, I feel completely different about this now. And I can regulate and I can witness it and I can integrate it and I can just keep going. It hasn't completely flawed him. It hasn't completely turned his day upside down. It won't send him into a spiral. He can acknowledge it and just keep going with his day. And it's remarkable the impact that this does. And essentially it sounds like hypnotic. You'd literally looking at your therapist's fingers.

[01:48:30] Mai: It's either fingers, I guess all you're doing, the main thing is that you are distracting yourself. While you're feeling the feel, so it's kind of like you're kind of dissociating, right? Mm. You're kind of pulling that apart. So whether that's you following a particular eye movement and it has to be quite stimulating, so some people need to follow it really quickly with their eyes.

[01:49:09] Mai: Neurofeedback, I'm not practiced in it, but I know a little bit about it from the research that's been done. It's not widely available to your average person on the street. I know a lot of defense and veteran affairs programs and bigger organizations do it and adapt it, but it's not something that you would necessarily find in a private practice, in a regional town.

[01:49:59] Mai: And it's tapping into [01:50:00] that aspect of it. So it's kind of like a hands-off therapy if you like, and I think for some people who have tried everything else, they will seek that service out.

[01:50:19] Mai: It retrains your brain to what neural networks are good for you. Mm-hmm. If you know what I mean.

[01:50:39] Bianca: Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time Mai You are welcome.

[01:50:47] Bianca: Thank you for listening. This podcast is dedicated to my son Herbert, and to all the fellow grievers out there. I'm sorry that you are here. Be kind to others, but mostly to yourself.

[01:51:17] Bianca: This podcast is for informational or entertainment purposes only, and isn't the substitute for professional advice. If you're struggling, please reach out to a GP or a qualified therapist. You're not alone and there is help available.