Do you want to know how you can provide a safe, inclusive, and growth-oriented workplace?

In the latest episode of the Happier at Work podcast, I was thrilled to be joined by Melina Cordero, a leading voice in workplace culture and operational happiness.

Melina emphasised the importance of understanding and addressing the core issues that prevent happiness at work. She discussed how conducting a culture audit and customising surveys can provide valuable insights from employees, leading to impactful changes within organisations. She urged companies to take action on survey results and effectively communicate the steps taken or reasons for not implementing specific changes.

Recognising the significance of diversity, equity, and inclusion, Melina stressed the need for organisations to promote awareness, learning, and unconscious bias mitigation through workshops, conversations, and safe spaces for open dialogue. She also highlighted the challenges faced by underrepresented groups in the workplace, emphasizing the importance of equitable workload distribution and fair compensation.

We also delved into the impact of toxic work environments on mental health. I shared my own experience and encouraged those facing similar challenges to seek support and take steps towards creating a better reality. Our conversation provided valuable insights for leaders and employees alike.

The main points throughout this podcast include:

• The importance of understanding and addressing the core issues that prevent happiness at work.
• Recognising the significance of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
• The need for organisations to promote awareness, learning, and unconscious bias mitigation through workshops, conversations, and safe spaces for open dialogue.
• Challenges faced by underrepresented groups in the workplace.
• The impact of toxic work environments on mental health.

Connect with Melina

Website: www.melinacordero.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melinacordero/

Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!

Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

Website: https://happieratwork.ie 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aoifemobrien/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/happieratwork.ie/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/happieratwork.ie

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@HappierAtWorkHQ

Twitter: https://twitter.com/HappierAtWorkHQ 

Melina, welcome to the happier at work podcast. I'm so delighted to have you as my guest. I know we met a couple of months ago, and we talked about you coming on as a guest on the Happier at Work podcast. So I'm delighted. The day has finally arrived. It seems so far in the future when we talked about it, but the day is finally right, and we are catching up today. Really, really looking forward to it. Do you want to let listeners know a little bit about you, your background and how you got into doing what you're doing.

Sure. Absolutely. And I'm, what a great way to kick off 2024, I have to say. Talking about being happy at work You're happier at work, which we could all use, I think. So I started off I had a career, that sort of skyrocketed without me intending for it too in commercial real estate, and so I spent, just over 10 years in various environments, kind of climbing up the ladder, in a small tech firm and then a Massive commercial real estate firm, leading teams and being one of the only women, being one of the youngest, usually the youngest in the room or on the Zoom, being the only Hispanic in the room a lot of times. And through that experience, really, the the higher I climbed, the more unhappiness I saw And felt really, in how things worked or didn't work. And it was really during the pandemic when It really hit me how unhappy people seem to be, and, Also, in particular, how that unhappiness at work was impacting women and people of color, in my view, much more than than my my white male colleagues. And that really stuck with me and, grew into a passion that I wanted to address.

So I guess you could say that my inspiration was unhappiness at work. Yeah. Yeah. Same as me. Right? And and it's a powerful one. And what What I ended up doing with that interest is just diving into the research. I I'm a big data nerd. I wanted to understand, was what I observing and, and experiencing and seeing a trend.

Was there data behind it? Is this a thing. Am I making this up? Am I projecting? Right? All the questions. And I dove into to all the research, all the studies, and it turns out that, yes, this is a thing, and this is a thing that's growing, And this is a thing that is not only growing and a people issue. Right? So we can all see it in our friend groups and our families. A lot of people are unhappy or unsatisfied or generally just not totally fulfilled with work, but also that that is affecting organizations. It's affecting company's ability to perform, produce, create, innovate, all the things. And All of this realization, all this research really just set off a light bulb for me, and I said, I I wanna go figure this out. I wanna go help.

I want people to be happier in life, and I think, you know, if you look at the stats, the percentage of our lives we spent at work is massive.

Yeah.

And so for me, that mission to see so many more people happy, really, we can't ignore the workplace. And so that was 1 mission. And paired with that, I wanna help organizations address this because I think there are lots of structural issues, At play here, preventing happiness at work. So in April of 2021, I handed in my Resignation. So lots of shock and awe because why would you leave such an amazing career? Why would you step off a ladder you're climbing so quickly on? And I said, I really care about this thing, and I think making other people happy will make me happy. And and so that's what I did. So if that was my mission that is my mission. And now what I do 2, 3 years later, is I work with organizations to help them address what I see as It's the core issues in culture and operations and strategy that prevents people from being happy and in so doing, prevents Companies and organizations from really reaching their full potential.

So the company that I founded is called p twenty, and that stands for the post 2020 workplace. Because I think for so many of us, the world changed really fundamentally in 2020.

It did. Yeah.

Our lives, The world and our workplaces, in my opinion, and I think most people agree, were really ill equipped And have been ill equipped and and and under resourced to address these new challenges. For me, a lot of that relates to leadership. A lot of that relates to what we call in the state's DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, and it relates to How are we running our teams and our businesses and each other? How are we managing our people, in a way that makes sure people feel included, happy, and fulfilled. And so for me, to answer your question about what is Happiness at work, a big part of that is inclusion. You know? Do we feel valued? Do we feel included? And do we have diversity around us that inspires and innovates? So for me, that's been a huge component of happiness at work, and it's been A huge missing piece in our workplaces and organizations that has led to a lot of unhappiness at work.

Yeah. I'd love to kind of drill into a couple of things and pick up on a couple of things that you've mentioned, Melina. So the first one is, I suppose, before you read all of the data. And by the way, I'm a total research and data nerd as well. That's my entire background. For almost 20 years, I worked in market research, so I'm a total data geek as well. But I'd love to know before you went in and read all of As you were saying, you were kinda looking around going, the higher you got, the more unhappiness that you saw. Why do you think that is? Like, what was your kind of instinct at that time before doing the research? It's a really great question.

You know, I

think at least in the environment where I was, in corporate America. However, I I will preface that by saying I don't think there are as many differences between corporate America, nonprofit America, public America As oftentimes, we assume or think Yeah. I you know, working with working across all types of organizations, I see very similar patterns across the board. So what what I seeing is a culture that very much focuses on on grind Culture. Right? So, do more with less resources, and that's something that we're seeing across the board. And so there is a Just a workload question that is just untenable. That is a big part of it. The other thing I see And I lived it.

I saw it is as you rise up, women and people of color and, really, anyone in In an organization or an environment that is underrepresented, con continues to face more obstacles. And so Not only facing obstacles to get to that role, but once you're in that role, the amount of of bias or unequal treatment. And sometimes it's very subtle, but it doesn't matter. It's very powerful, and it adds up, and it weighs you down. And and so being a woman in that kind of environment. And and knowing other women in that environment, the amount of sort of daily you know, some people call them microaggressions, unconscious bias. All of these daily little things add up, and and it's really, really Piling up when you the higher you go. And so I see a lot of that, and that's what I was seeing.

And, You know, one anecdote I always talk about, which may seem silly, but it it was very telling to me, was during the pandemic when everything went on Zoom. I would be on these Zoom calls with colleagues, clients, you know, a mix. And I noticed that all of the men were sort of in T shirts and baseball caps and hadn't shaved for 3 days. You know? Okay. It was a pandemic. But all the females on the call were, you know, makeup, hair done, dress professionally, and that really struck me, because I thought about why is this. And it's because we we felt we had to and we did have to. Because what I found out later through the research is, you know, women and men and, you know, we're just gonna generalize here and talk about 2 genders.

So there's there's a whole range, of gender identities that also face challenges. Right? We are judged differently. We are held to different expectations. It's fascinating. There was just an article published this morning in the Wall Street Journal about discrimination that that women in particular that everybody faces, but women face even more around weight. So our appearances, You know, we're judged very differently. And so the men could show up in T shirts and unshaven and and baseball caps And not be judged as unprofessional or incompetent.

Yeah.

But as women to show up in the same state, we would not be judged as leniently. We would immediately be seen as unprofessional, Less competent, maybe a little messy. And by the way, we would see each other that way. It's not just men seeing women that way. This is an unconscious bias that that we all experience. And so then if you take that to the next step, well, it means that, okay, well, women then have to spend an extra half hour hour every morning, and then they have to spend an extra, And then they have to and so if you think about all the implications of that, you know, that's an hour a guy gets to use checking emails and responding to clients. We're doing something else a bit more fun. And we're having to, you know, put some pain on our faces so people take us seriously.

Yeah. So So that is an anecdote for me that during the pandemic and, again, it sounds silly, but it really triggered something in me of, wait a minute. Something's happening here.

Yeah. Yeah. And when you went on to do the research then and kinda dive into that and realized that actually this is not just me. There is data to back this up. This is a real thing. What were the kind of what were the key findings from from that research that you did?

Yeah. And it's a lot of it then there's a lot, and there continues to be a lot. There are a couple great studies that I'll cite, and all came out in the past here too. In terms of behaviors, for example, male professionals, who speak a certain way, especially when it comes to things like authority or assertiveness, and they say, we're gonna do this, And we're gonna do it by Tuesday, and let's go team. When a man says that it's taken as credible, authoritative, assertive, Generally positive. What they found is is when a woman communicates the exact same thing using the exact same words in the exact same tone, it's perceived as hostile. It's perceived as unfriendly. It's perceived as, you know, insert all number of of bad terms here.

And that's something that has been very publicly discussed. We've seen it in politics. We see it in organizations. The range of emotions a woman is allowed to show in the workplace versus a man. Now I worked with salesmen. I worked with with real estate brokers, And there were many times where I saw men, quote, unquote, losing their cool.

Yeah.

Shouting, cursing, getting angry, upset Said about a deal.

I thought you were gonna use a different word there, Melina, but that's fine. It's all good.

I have all sorts of things I can use. Losing their cool, and and, you know, insert word here. Yeah. But they were seen as, Oh, well, you know, it's just they're passionate about about the they're passionate about their job and what they do. They're passionate. If a woman showed emotion that was anger, frustration, sadness, disappointment, anything like that, they're immediately oftentimes perceived as unstable.

Okay.

Emotional Yeah. Unprofessional because we're not able to separate, you know, our emotions from our our logical brain is kind of the assumption that's made. And so I remember being a a a senior woman in in the industry and feeling all the range of feelings every human does, But having to always, always, always filter my feelings through, I need to be very, very stoic, Very professional, very calm and measured, and I had situations where I had men almost Shouting, right, or cursing or being angry. And I was not allowed to reciprocate because I knew the consequences This, for me, would be much larger. And so that, the research talks a lot about that. And not just that it's happening, But that that filtering, that curate you know, that, that filtering that I had to do and so many women had to

do it. You know? Whatever

Masking, code switching, some people call it. Right? And it's it's not just women. People of color face this, and especially women of color face this the most. That doing that time and time again is extremely exhausting. Yeah. There are lots of psychological studies that talk about The burden and the stress that that that that causes is, you know, there's a lot of research around microaggressions, but also this code switching that we have to do of Yeah. I may be very vocal when when I'm at home with my friends. I may cry.

I may scream. I may you know, whatever. But at work, when you have to shut that down, That's exhausting. You are turning off parts of you, and you're essentially playing a role, and that's exhausting. And That is why the research tells us that when you look at rates of burnout, when you look at rates of stress, depression, we've seen it rise much, much more in in the past couple of years among women and people of color, than than any other groups. And it's not because they're not capable. It's not because we can't keep up. It's not because we can't keep up.

It's because we are facing so many other obstacles and daily little things and big things That drive unhappiness. Yeah.

Yeah. I'd love to kinda switch things up a little bit and start talking about Solutions. So Mhmm. Kind of focusing a lot of our conversation on what you see as the solutions. Like, I have some ideas myself, but from what you've read from the companies that you've worked with, from your own experiences as well, I'd love to know, like, do we have some steps that we can start take because, obviously, there are huge challenges. You you kinda talked about the the fact that as and I can relate much more to being a woman, you know, and kind of focusing on on that area specifically. And I face those challenges, and I probably didn't acknowledge or realize at the time that it was a specific challenge to my gender. I just thought I'm Unhappy at work.

I'm not really sure why that is. But upon reflection, when I look back, I think, actually, do you know what? There is something deeper going on here. And so I'd love to start the conversation around, like, well, what can we what can we start to do? And, you know, one of the thoughts just to kind of Maybe jump the gun a little bit. But one of the thoughts I had was that women need to vote with their feet. So if they're not happy in a place that they are, there's so many organizations out there that can Provide that, you know, fantastic culture, the opportunities that they're investing in their people. So any thoughts to kind of maybe on that, to build on that, or or completely different ideas in relation to how do we address how do we start to address this issue?

I'll start with that one because I completely agree, and that's what I did.

Yeah. Same.

Right? And it it sends a very powerful message. Now last year, McKinsey came out with a big report called women in the workplace they do every year.

Yeah.

And that report showed a pretty surprising I mean, for some people surprising, for us probably not so much, data and trend around, senior level women leaving the workplace in droves. They are leaving. And I work with a lot of companies and organizations that have challenges retaining women and people of color Because some of them, not all of them, some of them can get good at attracting and recruiting, but then they lose them. Yeah. Right. They they can't hold on to them because we are voting with our fee, and I highly encourage people to do that. Obviously, that is so much easier said than done. You're just telling everyone to quit their jobs or find a new job.

That is not easy, so I wanna preface that. And the support that you wanna How you know, to do that is big, so I definitely encourage anybody who's in that position and feeling, what can I do? I feel stuck. Talk to people like us who have who have done this, seek out motivation, seek out support, in doing that because it's it's much, much easier to do with a team than alone. So I'll say that from a a personal level, and I think that one of the misconceptions that's out there a lot is that it's on us to fix it, and it's not. So I have a little bit of a pet peeve around, a lot of women's networking functions or events or associations that I participated in, because so much of the programming tends to be you know, These amazing speakers come in or these workshops. But if you think about it, a lot of the teaching and the learning they're doing is about how to change yourself to fit in with x, y, z. So how to seem more confident, how to be more assertive, you know, all of these things, when we are not necessarily the problem, and we need to change that messaging that it's on us to fix this. That if we're unhappy, if we're not being taken seriously, if we're not being treated the same or fairly, It's on us to change that and demand more.

Now it's on us to hold our standards, and it's on us to make sure that we're we're where we wanna be And being treated the way we we wanna be. But if we're not, it's not on us to change, You know, the entire organization. What you can do is state, look. I'm noticing a, b, and c. Here's the data. It it's not Right. So what are we gonna do about this? Now when your employer or whatever the organization is does not respond in a way that values that feedback And action's it? Leave. Leave.

Because you're right. And so what we're seeing is, Oh, and this is one of the business cases I make to organizations about why you need to be investing in in culture and inclusion and and And all of that with and and leadership training within your company because people are leaving, and you are gonna lose amazing talent. You're gonna grow a reputation as a sort of toxic at workplace. And and increasingly when women and people of color are looking for places to work, they are looking at what the makeup the team is. So if you're losing women, if you're losing your people of color, you're gonna have an even harder time recruiting. So we're seeing this impact companies, and so, yes, we are voting with our feet. We're take we're we're taking steps 2 other organizations that are doing this work and paying attention to this. So absolutely, I agree with that.

That's one thing. Can can we dive into that a little bit more because I know, you know, you've acknowledged the fact that it's it's not that simple. You know? You can't just go out. There's Finances to consider and and and things like that. And I know, certainly Brian Akar, who connected us in the 1st place, we have a whole episode on on why I left, basically. Yes. He's talking about why people leave organizations. But Mhmm.

You know, For me, when I so I left 2. Let's say I left 2 workplaces. 1, completely toxic. The other, just not a great fit for me. But I left. It might have taken a while to do that, maybe a few months, but I know people who are out there, who are in those Toxic situations who are not progressing, who are not working to their strengths, but they're staying where they are. So I suppose I want to acknowledge them and acknowledge that fact and maybe talk to them and say, well, how can how can we help you to get through this?

Yeah. Yeah. I spent a lot of time thinking about this, and let me be very clear. I quit, and I get emails all the time from people hear me on a podcast or Your ex colleagues being like, you are so brave. You are so courageous. Like, I wish I could do what you did. I wish I could do what you did.

Yeah.

It took me 3 years. Yeah. 3 years. It was extremely difficult emotionally, psychologically, physically. Right? It's not an easy process. And through that, I've thought a lot about you know, I was able to do it even though it took 3 years, but I had incredible amount of support. What about all the people who don't have that support? And so One of, my passion projects on the side is is helping people navigate that. And so I've had lots of conversations with Brian about this because he's doing this great work, talking to people, not only about why they quit, but how they quit.

And the advice I always give, I mentioned it before. Don't do it alone. Make sure that you have a tribe of people around you who can support you, a, motivating you that you can survive without this job, that you can feel successful without this job, that you can find another job. So there's this sort of motivation, psychological, emotional support around it, whether that is a therapist, a coach, your friends, whatever. Not everyone has the support from their family, for example, or their friends. So wherever you need to find that, find it and surround yourself with it. As I mentioned, reach out to people like you, like me, who have done it And can can can give you that that push and that hug to go do it. Second, you know, there there are more practical things.

I, Worked with a financial adviser to make sure that I had my finances together. Knew how much I needed to save, so I could project, okay. If, you know, it takes me this long to get my 1st client, how much do I need? That kind of thing. So that kind of practical advice there around finances, Practical advice around if you're looking for another job, work with someone. Maybe maybe get a career coach or get someone who can help you Look at your CV and say, you know, you are not making the most of everything you've done. Let's let's Yeah. You know, look practically at this. Get that support.

And the other thing is, It is so hard to step away and be strategic and thoughtful and grounded through a process when you are super stressed, When you are in a toxic setting, when you are exhausted, and exhausted is the number one word I am sure people can identify with Yeah. If they're going through this. So the the other the other number one thing you need to do is that I mean, I hate to use the term self care because I think it's overused and trite, but you've got to take care of yourself, and you've got to carve out space for yourself to You know, some people meditate. Some people do yoga. Sure. But what I'm talking about here is spend time with your Desires. Spend time with the things that make you happy. Yeah.

Because that happiness and connecting with some people there's a a famous Guy, who I think was, like, the chief happiness officer at Google for some time who termed this phrase joy dots. These little moments or these little things throughout your day that just make you a little happy. Maybe it's your 1st sip of a coffee. Maybe it's Spending time with your kids reading a book. Whatever those little things are, make time for it. You don't need to spend every single Moment of your free time thinking strategically about what you're gonna do next. You need to also cultivate the space for your body and your system to be like, I got this. I'm gonna be okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So I am not a therapist. I am not a coach, but that is what I have learned through having done this.

But to get your energy back as well. And I know certainly that toxic environment that I mentioned, it really knocked my confidence a lot, probably way beyond what I thought. And it's only now in reflection I can see why that probably lasted about 10 years where I just felt I'm not good enough or, that way everything was my fault when I can see objectively now, I did what I could to try and create a better situation for myself. So I think when there's a lot when there's you know, if or if there's people listening today, which I'm sure there are, who are finding themselves in that situation blaming themselves, exhausted because the work is toxic and have to mask and Mhmm. Whatever else is going on, that there is light at the end of the tunnel. It might take a while to get there, but think about what you need to do in order to Yeah. Make it a reality. So Maybe you can't afford to talk to a financial person, but oftentimes, they can help you to save money rather than thinking of it as an expense.

So think about all the things that you need to do in order to make that a reality for you and see that light at the end of the tunnel. We're still early in 2024. There's still time to do that. And, you know, if you're going through that, you're definitely you're definitely not alone. Malena, I'd love to come back and talk now because you mentioned a lot of the time these trainings that Our offer to women, it kinda places the issue at the foot of women. And there's a bigger role that organizations play in this. So how can we address those organizational issues?

Yeah. That has become my my Passion. You know, my work passion. That's what I do is is helping organizations address this. Now I wanna say a couple things about what holds organizations back From addressing this, you know, what what's held them back? A, I think it's overwhelming feels overwhelming. B, it seems like it's a big shift To shift course, and we we don't have the time or the budget or the attention. And, also, it feels Very intimidating. I think that is probably the number one thing holding organizations back from addressing, you know, what we're talking about here, which is fundamentally equity and inclusion issues.

For a lot of people in positions of leadership, especially white men, and it's not because they're bad people that I I will never say. They're not bad people. But it's an area that has become supercharged politically, emotionally, all of these things. And so what I have focused on is Looking at those obstacles to, you know, what's holding organizations back from actually doing something about this and and and shaped what I you around that. And so the first thing, I think one of the things that you and I have been mentioning throughout this conversation is that these are unconscious decisions or actions or behaviors and habits, bits, that are happening. And so the first thing we have to do to to to change those is become aware of them. Right? So the first step in the x, y, z is is admitting you have a problem. Yes.

So we need to admit we have a problem, and that the problem does not need to be A big dramatic uncomfortable thing. My my big motto that I use a lot is is, little hinges swing big doors.

Mhmm.

And so the first little hinge that we need to develop is is awareness. And So for me, that means, not just, okay, have a workshop every month or training every month, but can we have conversations? Can we work in conversations about these things in, in a supportive, sort of growth oriented way. And so I've worked with organizations where we Set up. Okay. Every month in the staff meeting, we're gonna set aside a portion of the meeting to watch this 5 minute video on this uncomfortable questions, Part of my my series on what's a gender pronoun. Right? And so we're all just gonna sit here. We're gonna watch this, and then we'll talk about what we learned or what surprised us or how We feel about it. Right? And so it just needs to be part of the general conversation, and we need to become aware of these things.

Yeah.

The more aware we are, the more, You know, we can actually do about it. And so working and learning. So learning is a really, really important part of this. So what are you as an organization doing To grow awareness of these topics, of these trends, of this research, of this you know, what's actually happening, putting names to it. As you mentioned and what I experienced as well, a lot of times we're going through we're experiencing these things. We don't know it's a thing. We don't know there's a term. We don't know it's a thing happening to other people.

And there's a huge sense of relief, when you realize it's not, oh, it's not me. Yeah. So that's really important in having conversations.

I found out with, with imposter syndrome. Once people realize that it's a thing and it has a name, they realize that they're not the only one who's experiencing that. Yeah. I was gonna build on what you were saying about the uncomfortable questions. There could be an awful lot of fear around that fear of making a mistake. Like, what if I call someone the wrong pronoun? Or, like, how How do I correct it? Or maybe they're afraid of ever speaking to that person again or whatever it might be. Because I know like, it's I'm sure it's been around for a lot longer, but it's come much more to the fore in the last number of years. People, you know, It's kind of demanding what their identity is, and things like that.

And so there's all these questions that other people have that they're I'm afraid to ask. You know?

Absolutely. And so every single organization I work with, I institute something called an Unterrible question, almost like box. So, basically, giving employees the opportunity, the option to submit questions or concerns fully anonymously, right, in a way that allows them to learn but not feel intimidated and fearful. That project and I also have a project called uncomfortable questions. It's a it's a weekly newsletter that goes out. It's on LinkedIn. It's also via email, in my p twenty newsletter, that I collect these questions people submit online, And then I respond to them. And so a lot of the questions that I've gotten, everything from you know, I mentioned what's a gender pronoun and Hispanic heritage month, I got a lot of questions around what's the correct term? Is it Latinx? Is it Hispanic? Like, what I just don't know.

I'm I don't know what to do or say. So little things like that. Big things, like how do I deal with the increasing political divisions that are happening this year? How do I prevent that from affecting, you know, my colleagues' relationships with each other and how we work together? So, there's a range of topics, and I think it's We don't. If you think about your experience with work, if you think about leaders and work, there is very little space, if any, where leaders can go and ask questions that are a little bit touchy or sensitive or relate especially related to DE and I, Where they feel they can go ask a question and learn Yeah. Without feeling like, am I gonna get pushed

back? Without feeling

Without feeling judged. That they should know. Fear of cancel. Yeah. Yeah. So that is a concrete thing, and I always recommend it. Even if, you know, I'm not working with an organization, you're a leader, Here's the suggestion. Or if you're HR, if you're not HR, you know, take these in.

And, also, what it does is it's a really great data point for you as a as a leader, or even if you do it within your team as a manager of a team, is it gives you a great sense of what's keeping your people up at night or what may be some issues on the team. If you're seeing multiple people, you know, post questions about how do I handle Conflict or how do I handle angry emails. Right? Okay. Now you're starting to identify that there are some, you know, issues around this this theme, And you don't need to have the answer. You know? You can't be expected as as a leader to be an expert in conflict resolution, unconscious bias, etcetera, etcetera. But there's nothing preventing you from going and finding someone who can come in and talk about that. One of the things that I do that I think is is a really big Part of addressing this. Right? Like, what can organizations do is something called a culture audit.

Now sometimes organizations do engagement surveys, but I found those having, you know, filled many out in my day. They're a little lacking. I I don't think they get to the heart of a lot of issues. I think that they can be too long. They're a little bit dull, and we don't really get anything out of participating. You know? We don't Seems nothing seems to be actioned, so why even fill it out? Right? It's a general sense. Also, there's a a lack of trust. Even when an engagement survey that your boss sends you says it's anonymous, you don't really believe that.

There's always a way. Right. You don't believe that.

Worried that it'll come back. They'll see something that was written, and they'll realize that it was he who wrote it. No matter how much they say, well, we can't break it down And 2 individuals or it's not it's gonna be aggregated to a minimum of 5 people. Still, if people see the language that you use or the issue that you have, There's often that perception that, hey. This isn't really anonymous, and I can't I don't feel safe saying what I really want to say.

Exactly. And so number 1 another number 1 piece of advice to organizations, invest in what I call a culture audit. Right. That is looking across your organization, that is customized to your organization, your specific challenges, your industry. You know, the way that I do it is I sit down with the leadership team or whoever's, you know, administering or or or initiating the survey and say, what are your Big challenges. What do you think the issues are? What do you think you do well? What are your big challenges as as a company? You know? Forget DE and I. What what's holding you back? Maybe you're feeling like you're not productive enough. You're having retention issues.

Let's look at the whole picture. Because a lot of times, the the things that are hindering or obstacles to the Productivity, the innovation, etcetera, is actually rooted in some of the things that we've been talking about, workloads, Inequities, feeling on value, all the things. So then you create, a a custom survey. And so, you know, everyone hates the s word, but there's a lot of science behind what can make a great survey. And I've I get, on average, like, 90 to 95% Engagement rates with mine because they need to be short. They need to be compelling, and people need to be able to see the value that comes out of it.

Yeah.

And then 1 on 1 conversations. So a survey is great, but what I do is I pair it with having anonymous, You know, psychologically safe, they call it, conversations across your organization with people at all different levels, about their experiences, And that is incredibly, incredibly insightful about what is and not what is and isn't going on at the company. And you're able to then come back and say, Here's what your people need. Here's what they wanna see. Here's what motivates them, and here are the concrete things you can do, Small and large. Again, little hinges swing big doors to address this. And even just a step, what I've noticed With initiating a culture survey, contracting someone to come in and do this, the impact it has on employees, They go, wow. They're really taking this seriously.

And so you get points. You gain points and credibility and trust with your people In the very simple step of just doing it. Obviously, you wanna action it. You wanna do things with it, but it's a really powerful step to take to send your people the message that You're paying attention, and you care, and you wanna make it better.

Yeah. And I think therein lies I guess the key is don't ask questions on things that you can't take action on. So make sure to link back Whatever the results from the survey, from the audit, whatever comes back from that, link it back and say, these Are the actions that we're taking as a result of what you said, what you told us you wanted to do, which makes it easier than the next time to implement that same kind of thing. People would be like, oh, do you know what? They did make those changes that we talked about or or give a reason why you can't make that specific change. I think that, you know, something that comes up all the time with people is pay, isn't it? Like, oh, I need to be paid more. Okay. Let's have let's address The elephant in the room here is here's what we're doing to address that issue. Here here are the the steps that we're gonna take, but here's what we're not doing in relation to that as well.

You know, it's interesting about pay, and this I'm glad you mentioned that, and it it links to what we're talking about. Because I think that is a big assumption And that a lot of leaders make is that, the unhappiness among employees, especially maybe juniors, is really related Hey. And, well, budget wise, there's nothing we can do about that. Mhmm. It's really interesting as the data tells us, like, of course, people need to feel like they're being compensated fairly. That's a given. Yeah. But what's actually even more important is people feel that they're growing.

Now a lot of times, if if the only way a company is sort of showing An employee that they're valued is through their compensation, then they're gonna want more compensation. But when you can reward employees or address this need for employees to feel like they're growing through other means. Issues around salary and dissatisfaction become much less of a problem. And what I mean by that is the number of employees I talked to feel like, Okay. I know I'm junior. I would like to be making more money. I understand that that might take some time, but how can I be developing my Professional skills? How can I feel like this company is helping me grow if it's not in salary immediately? At least I'm getting more skills. I'm getting more experience.

I get to Maybe do a project or 2 here with another team. And so how are you thinking about the learning and development, the management Training, right, that you're giving to people. Concrete example. Someone wants to rise up and go from, you know, an individual contributor to a manager. They wanna rise up to the manager level. Let's say in the budget or the the structure of the organization, there's just not a space or a budget for that for that person, but you wanna support them. You wanna say, hey. We we care about you.

We value you. We we do wanna see you grow. We just can't do it on the time line, that that you want. But, hey. Let's do this. Let's get you access to some management training. Let's get you totally ready and equipped. Let's let's Let's build up that skill set in you, cultivate that.

And so when a position does open up, you are ready to go. We wanna invest in your success, And that's not a $10,000 investment. Right? That's minimal. And so it's little things like that. And that's really what drove, The development of of my platform, which is the the p twenty platform, which is around providing those learning and development resources in a really accessible, approachable way so that employees feel like, oh, I'm learning. I'm growing, and you can do it in in in a comfortable environment.

Brilliant. I love that. Anything else that you wanted to share before we wrap things up?

I would just really wanna reemphasize the point that, You know, don't shy away from this work. It doesn't have to be uncomfortable. It doesn't have to be unapproachable. My big mission is making You know, addressing these culture and DEI issues and obstacles, making it fun, Making it approachable, making it value add, and we need to change the sort of stigma around it. This is essentially, As your podcast is titled about making people happier at work, it's not necessarily about shaming people or correcting wrongs or telling people they're bad or Pointing out all of our flaws. That's all true. We all have flaws. We're all not great at everything.

Right? That's a given. But how can we look at this work as something that contributes to everyone's happiness. Yeah. And I think if we can shift our mindset around that as leaders in organizations, We're gonna be able to do a lot more work because we're not approaching it with this, you know, shut down, shut off. Oh, gosh. What What am I gonna be told next? What am I gonna be, you know, told I'm bad at or wrong about? And so I say that especially, especially Especially to to the men who who are listening and may feel like I just I have so much on my plate. I cannot add something that's gonna make me feel terrible Or, like, I'm to blame. Right? All of us are in this together.

We all have bias. We all have a lot of the same unconscious Assumption. So this is not a we need to get a certain demographic group to be better. This is we all need to work together On finding ways to be better and do better.

I love that. And the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Being happier at work means feeling valued, feeling purpose, Feeling included. And for me, personally, it feels like I'm growing. I think the the moment that I become unhappy or unsatisfied with work is when I feel like I'm not Growing. Yeah. That's not just revenue wise. You know? Am I learning? Am I expanding? Am I trying new things? Am I adventuring? So for me and statistically for a lot of people, it's do I feel like I'm growing.

Yeah. Brilliant. I love that. And, Melina, if people want to connect with you, if they want to find out more about what you do and the p twenty platform. What's the best way they can do that?

They can go to my website, melena cordero.com, very simple, and you can link to All of my business services that I offer, but the other great thing is sign up for my newsletter, which is Which is on that website, the p twenty newsletter, which includes all the uncomfortable questions, weekly insights and tips or leaders, several of which, you know, we've talked about today about how we can actually make things better. So it's research for and insights Both for individuals about what we can be doing day to day, but also for for organizations and and leaders and what you can do, at your companies. And, definitely very prolific on LinkedIn. So I post a lot, share a lot of research and data there. So, you can Definitely keep up with me. Add me on LinkedIn. I'm always happy to have new friends.

Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today. Really, really insightful stuff. And I think some great Practical things that people can start implementing straight away.

Yeah. Absolutely. And if anybody is looking for Support in driving some of those tangible cultural changes at the organization. You know who to call. I've got lots of ideas.

I didn't slow it. And I'm gonna try something now. So, typically, this is where the podcast would end. But I there was something else that was bothering me, but I didn't wanna bring it into the main podcast just because it might go a bit longer. So I might do something that's like a blooper. Not a blooper, but like a an additional thing. Blooper is It's the wrong word, really.

It's not a real welcome thing.

Yeah. Of Yeah. One of the things that came up very early on in Our conversation was this idea of, the workload. So I would love if you could address that because it's such A very real issue for people is there's just too much work.

Yeah. Yeah. There is too much work. What we've seen and some of it is cultural. Right? We've gotten to this stage where it's like everyone should just be able to multitask and handle all this Work and just grind, grind, grind. Right? And some of it is very structural. Right? We've seen, through various economic cycles, companies cutting back resources, consolidating roles. I mean, I'm a great example of this where I had 1 senior Executive level role.

I was promoted into another one that was, you know, even larger. And during the pandemic, when they made a lot of cuts, I was asked to do both at the Same time for a 10% raise. Right? So No. It's okay.

Maybe for a 100% raise, but for 10% raise.

Have been, You know, commensurate with the work that was being asked for me. Exactly. But that's just a

little even a 50% raise.

You know, 10%. Come on. Exactly. But this is happening all over the place, and, oh, we're gonna consolidate. We're gonna restructure. And, really, what that means is we're We're gonna ask you to do more work, and we're gonna hire fewer people. And so that is that is a structural thing that is happening at so many companies, and and and the The roots of that really, unfortunately, is in how especially for public companies and companies in general are being measured on their profits. And so there's this immense pressure for companies to be growing, not just maintaining, but really growing profits, which means that they're, Yes.

They're looking at ways to grow revenue, but, really, most of the time, they're looking at ways to cut costs. So Yeah. So there's a structural reason behind that that it's happening, and it is a thing. And I think, you know, a, it's workloads. Most people are overworked first. In most organizations, and this is large corporations down to small nonprofits, I have seen I mean, some of the Most overworked people I've seen are actually at small nonprofits for obvious reasons. I mean, they're, they're very limited resources, but they're doing a lot. And and they're doing work that they care about, so there's this additional pressure of, well, if I don't do this work.

Yeah. Who's gonna do it? And Yeah. This is my calling. This is such a special cause. It's okay if I'm not getting paid enough. And, yeah, it's almost kind of martyr syndrome.

Yeah. And a lot of those roles fall on women, by the way. Nursing, teaching, a lot of these caregiving type Professions disproportionately are impacting women. So there's that. But then there's also, how are we Distributing the workload. So there are issues with workload distribution and equity there in terms of, well, why are you know, women are saying saying yes to everything, and men have an easier time saying no because it they again, what we talked about before around if a woman puts up boundaries, she's seen as, You know, uncooperative. If a man puts up boundaries, he's assertive and knows what he needs. So, you know, there are issues there, and I think the other main issue is nobody's tracking workloads.

Think about all the the organizations where you've worked. Does anybody have a really robust system where they're tracking who's working on what? How long do tasks take? Right? And so there's, I think there's an opportunity for us to think differently come up with some and some of it may be tech related solutions around better measurement of of workload. Because When a company can do that and distribute them equitably and fairly, then you're able to see And keep an eye on oof. Our workloads have have really gotten out of control here. We need to shift. It becomes easier for managers to Advocate for another resource.

Yes.

It allows you to be able to track who's doing more than who, so maybe you can Even and out or compensate them appropriately

for that.

You know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have so many thoughts on that. And since it's after the podcast, We can kinda think if you still have time, if you're okay with that. I'm not going into anything else. But I worked in an organization where So on the one hand, if we the one of the responsibilities was for us to sell additional time, additional consulting into our client organization. So they were on yearly contracts or 3 yearly contracts, and we were delivering on an ongoing basis to those clients.

But What part of the remit was that we upsell? But once you upsell, where does that time comes from? You know? It comes from our time that we don't have. So then we're expected to do overtime. We're not getting compensated anymore for doing the overtime. So that's kind of working on the one hand. On the other hand, one of the leaders or sorry, the leader in Ireland very deliberately didn't replace people when they left because he wanted to remain I was gonna say remain profitable, not remain profitable, retain the margin that He had already, which was high. He was, like, 25% or something like that, very deliberately. And the morale within the team just went through the floor. We could see there was big gaps.

People were picking up work all the time. Mhmm. The other thing I was was gonna say I'm so I'm such a productivity nerd. I'm so interested in all that stuff, and how do we do that. And my big thing now is, On the one hand, making sure that you're working to your strengths the majority of the time. So what are your strengths? What can you do quickly, easily, naturally that other people can't necessarily do as quickly and easily and naturally. And how do you pair up with someone who maybe has complementary strengths to you? So I talk about me being a Detail oriented spreadsheet nerd. I love spreadsheets.

Pair me with someone who's maybe a big picture thinker, and,

you

know, we can work very well together because we have that kind of complimentary style. But then the other thing is very much outcome based. So it's like, I don't give a shit how long you and doing a task. What I do care about is what outcome that task produces and how do you get that outcome in the most efficient way. So Yeah. Rather than saying, oh, well, you know, Jove down the road, he he's spent 4 hours doing that, so we need to compensate him more. It's more about well, Eva did that same amount of work, but it only took her 2 hours. So Mhmm.

Mhmm. You know, it's kind of Again, it brings us onto this topic of you are at a disadvantage if you do your work quickly because you'll just.

Oh, yeah. That's a common thing is is about like, oh, you know, there are these memes on the Internet everywhere of, I was doing such a good job, and so my boss rewarded me by giving me more work.

Exactly. Right?

And so it's like,

Yeah.

It's definitely it's definitely an issue. You know, I I would say that that overwork and being under resourced is is A huge barrier, not just the happiness at work, but, DEI. Yeah. Totally. Percent. You know, culture, Yeah. Yeah. And and what's interesting is when people feel adequately valued and compensated and, like, they're growing, It's not a question of I don't wanna work that hard.

I don't wanna work an extra hour or 2 here. It's not. It's it's the Grind and the overwork with absolutely no recognition Yeah. Feeling of you know, that needs To be acknowledged. So what we're saying what we're not saying here is, everyone needs to just work, you know, 9 to 5 and and then let them be. I mean, I would love to institute that, but it's just not practical and realistic. But what you do need to do is check-in with your employees whether they're working 5 hours a day or 12 hours a day Yeah. Or more? How are you feeling? What support can I give you? What do you need? What would make things more efficient? Yeah.

Right? How can we do this better? Yeah. And ask them ask them what they need. Don't guess Yeah. Or ignore, which

is worse. Yeah. Yeah. This is a thing. I think oftentimes we assume what people need because, oh, that's what I would need in that situation, and then situation, and then we're projecting onto them. But, yeah, much better approach to

ask them free. And actually It's free to ask your people. I mean, you can pay me to ask them for you, and I'll do an excellent job, but it's also free to ask your people what they want.

Yes. Absolutely. I I think we'll leave it there for today. Thank you so much for for getting involved in this kind of post podcast. I don't know what I'll do yet with this. I'll probably make some sort of video ahead of it, but I think it's it's a it's a nice approach. It's kind of like a here's a little offshoot of what we talked right after we stopped recording, when things

are real. Yes. No. I love it. I love it. No. I did something similar with Brian because he, I had said this really funny thing at the start of the podcast about, like, it's Brian a car, like like, a car. Car.

Yeah.

And, and and then we both started laughing, and I kind of put that as, like, an intro reel to our video. So Brilliant. Yeah. I think there's lots of stuff you can do with it. But I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And Thank you. I thanks for sending over all of your stuff on the imposter syndrome.

So I'm gonna dig into that, and then I'll send you just a couple, like, core questions ahead of time. But other than that, like, it'll be similar to this in terms of Brilliant.

Sounds Great. Looking forward to it. Thank you so much. Thanks, Megan. You.

Talk to you soon. Bye bye. Bye.