Shownotes
Authenticity and Connection: Transforming Public Speaking with Marianne Hickman
SUMMARY
In this episode of Present Influence, host John welcomes Marianne Hickman to discuss the importance of authenticity, connection, and ethical speaking in public presentations. They explore issues such as trauma dumping, the power of telling stories from scars, and why confidence without competence can be detrimental. Marianne emphasises the sacredness of the microphone and shares insights on the 'Utah bro' archetype and the Dunning-Kruger effect. The conversation also delves into how humour, open mics, and even onstage mishaps can enhance teaching and engagement. They advocate for continuous learning and maintaining a 'white belt' mentality as they navigate public speaking and personal growth.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Cutting Through Stage Fakery: Real Influence You Can Trust
00:55 Welcome to Present Influence: Live with Marianne Hickman
02:13 The Sacredness of the Microphone: Stories from Scars, Not Wounds
04:46 The Utah Bro Archetype and the Dangers of Manipulation
10:20 The Power of Humour and Authenticity in Public Speaking
11:45 Embracing Comedy: Lessons from Mr Rogers and Robin Williams
20:39 The Yes, And Principle: Turning Mishaps into Moments
28:32 Taking the Pressure Off: Embracing Imperfection
29:55 Facing High-Stakes Situations with Confidence
32:48 Finding Your People: The Importance of Authenticity
38:26 The Role of Confidence in Influence
41:46 The Lifelong Student: Embracing Humility
49:14 The Power of Confidence: A Personal Story
52:16 Final Thoughts and How to Connect
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Transcripts
Today we're gonna be cutting through stage fakery and getting real
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about influence You can trust Now
my guest today shares that too many
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gurus turn a microphone into a mirror.
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Trauma, dumping status theater,
and confidence without competence.
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Audiences are savvier than that.
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and people are tired of being
played and emotionally manipulated.
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So my guest, Marianne Hickman
calls the mic a sacred place and
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shows why you must tell stories
from scars, not from open wounds.
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We dig into the Utah bro archetype, which
I wasn't familiar with before, and the
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Dunning Kruger cliff and how humor, and
yes, open mics, even onstage, mishaps can
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help you teach better and be remembered.
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So if you want to stand out without
selling out, this one's your field guide,
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ethical authority, real charisma and
practical ways to keep audiences with you.
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When the sides die, the plans
change or the ego wants the wheel.
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So let's get into it.
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Welcome to Present
Influence, Marian Hickman.
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I have been so excited to talk
to you and, uh, delighted to have
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you here live with me on the show.
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We're going live on Instagram
as well, which is very exciting.
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Good to have you here today.
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Marianne Hickman: I'm
so honored to be here.
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When we chatted before, I was just
like, this guy has his stuff together.
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I'm all about your podcast too.
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The, the content of your podcast
is, it's so valuable for speakers
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because I think a lot of us in the
world of speaking, especially new and
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emerging speakers, there's a lot of.
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Things that feel elusive.
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How do we get booked on stages?
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How do we make money from this?
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And there's not a lot of people who are
just willing to give the answers to this.
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There's a lot of paywalls
and stuff and so forth.
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So I'm excited for what you're doing
because it's just making it accessible to
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people whose messages you can get behind.
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John: I, I really appreciate that.
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I, I also, my, my part of my goal,
my hope as well is that we're also
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equipping people with some of the
skills and ability to grow and develop
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in how they deliver that as well and
what they do on stage, um, making it.
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Making the magic happen even
more successfully, which is,
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uh, a wonderful thing to see.
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And I do hear from people
sometimes that that is what they
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get from the show and enjoy that.
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So I really appreciate that feedback.
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Marianne Hickman: Let me
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John: ask let me ask you what, uh, this
is maybe a, a tough question to kick
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off, but I think you can handle it.
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It what's, what's maybe a, a position
or an opinion you have about speaking
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or presenting that maybe it's a bit
contrarian or, or different to what
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most other people tend to put out there.
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Marianne Hickman: Well, so I don't
know if it's necessarily contrarian,
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but it's something that people
don't talk about enough, I think.
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It's, uh, I was just
writing my book yesterday.
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I, I'm like dictating my book
in my car while I drive 'cause I
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have no other time to write it.
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John: That's a great way to do it.
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Marianne Hickman: it's, well, I hope so.
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Uh, so this, this came up yesterday.
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Same question Chatt asked me,
and this is it When we speak.
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The microphone is a sacred place.
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This microphone is a sacred place.
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My Instagram is a sacred place.
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The reason it's sacred is because we are
receiving time from other people, which
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is the world's most valuable resource.
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They don't get it back.
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It's non-renewable.
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Right?
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If we are going to use that time and
tell stories that aren't healed yet,
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then that causes a huge problem.
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I'm a big advocate of telling stories
from scars, not from open wounds.
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There's, there's a huge danger in
the public speaking world right now,
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and that danger is in trying to teach
when it's really just trauma dumping.
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At best when it's trauma dumping
at best, that doesn't help anybody.
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That should be done with a
therapist, not with an audience.
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And at worst it's manipulation and that's
the danger when most, when people who
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do manipulate use the tools that we talk
about, they use the art of persuasion.
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They use the art of psychology.
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We understand body language, we
understand all this movement, and
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people who would manipulate, and
people that would just plain old scam
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people, they know these tools as well.
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They use these tools and
people, it's not a win-win.
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It's a win lose or a lose lose
oftentimes if you wait long enough.
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And that's the big danger is,
is, I hate the word authenticity
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because it's so overused, but I
can't think of a better word for it.
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know, it's when you have genuine
authenticity and a drive to help
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people, that is exceedingly rare,
and it takes a lot of exposure as an
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audience member to detect when that's
happening and when it's not happening.
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John: I, I agree.
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I agree a hundred percent.
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And I, I certainly have some,
some thoughts on that myself,
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which I would love to share about.
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First of all, I'd like to ask you.
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What would be an example of that
that maybe you've seen now you, you
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don't have to name any names, but
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Marianne Hickman: Oh, I won't,
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John: but give us an example of where you
maybe have seen that somewhere recently.
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Marianne Hickman: Right know,
it, it's, it's rampant now.
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I don't wanna give Utah a bad name,
but there are, it, it, it is a.
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A fertile soil for what you and
I have come to know and everybody
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has come to know is the influencer.
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Right?
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It, there's a lot of YouTubers
that come out of Utah.
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It's just, I don't know why and
it, it's not necessarily because of
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the geography that just happens to
be where we are, but there's this
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thing that's called the Utah bro.
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Okay know it when you see it.
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And if you're, if you're, if there's
anyone that's watching live, I know
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you know what I'm talking about.
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If you live in Utah, right, it's the Utah
bro that, uh, will put on the persona.
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They usually have like a
mustache and no beard because
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BYU is really weird like that.
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They wear tight gym shorts,
overly baggy shirts.
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They're huge and they're
all about sales and.
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It's really sad because there can
be a lot of good done by people
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who fit that demographic, but
unfortunately, that demographic can
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be easily stereotyped into people who
will self, like, what is the word?
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Aggrandize?
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Anize.
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they'll
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John: they'll make
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Marianne Hickman: that's the one,
that's the one self aggrandize.
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And they're, you can tell, you
can tell when they get on stage,
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and they're all about themselves.
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They're all about being the
loudest one in the room.
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They're all about being the,
look at me, look at me, look
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at me instead of look at you.
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Look at you.
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Look at you.
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And that's, that's an easy way if
you're calibrating and you're in
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the audience saying, oh, who am
I sitting in front of right now?
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I believe there's something to learn no
matter who you're sitting in front of.
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I will say that.
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Uh, and I also have to admit that I have
been on the wrong side of this before.
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It, it, I, I took training and I
watch that and I thought that's what,
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how it was supposed to be until one
day I was walking through an event.
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And this is an event where I was speaking,
I was MCing and this event, uh, they hired
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a security team and for the speakers.
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Now, was that necessary?
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I don't know, but it made me feel really
cool and it made me feel really special.
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And, uh, I was walking
through the lobby with a sec.
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This was insane, John.
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I felt like I was like the
president or something.
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There was a security guy in front of
me, one on each side, and the security
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guy behind me as if there was some
like threat, which there wasn't.
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What that did was boosted my ego and
also separated me from my audience.
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It separated me from the person
that paid money to come get help.
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It separated me from the people who
spent their last dime and their last time
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maybe even got fired from their jobs.
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That's happened to come to an
event where I was speaking.
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It, it, it just left
me with a sick feeling.
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And, uh, I was just recently reading, you
know, how we all just binge on Instagram.
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I was recently reading about Keanu
Reeves and how he is the type of
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person, I hope I can meet him one day.
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He's the type of who mm-hmm.
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He doesn't bring a media team with him.
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He's out there eating with
the homeless on the street.
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He takes a subway to work.
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He donates many of his funds.
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Robin Williams was the same
way on every show he was on.
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He required that at least a certain
percentage of the people who worked on
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the show be hired homeless people, so
they would have a job local in their area.
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It we, we can all detect this.
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It's part of the gut feeling that we have.
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Trust your gut.
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This is one of my primary
lessons I teach my kids.
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If your gut's saying ask questions.
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Look into is this person on the
same sa on the stage, the same
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person they are on stage and the
same person they are at home.
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And that's hard to tell sometimes.
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But if your your scamo meter is going off,
just pay attention to it and be discerning
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for yourself without judgment if you can.
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But be discerning for yourself
that I don't know if that answers
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your questions That's my soapbox
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John: on I think I.
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to
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Marianne Hickman: my Ted talk.
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John: I love your answer.
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Uh, and I, I agree and one of the things
that was very important to me with this
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show when I created it was wanting it to
also be a platform for helping people to
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develop their critical thinking skills and
to have healthier skepticism about things.
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And, uh, I seen some
videos last week about.
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Always asking questions and
like, why it's been so important
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to me to always ask questions.
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And that's, that attitude has taken
me on a, on quite some journeys
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in my life, but people don't seem
to get too excited about seeing,
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seeing, oh, critical thinking skills.
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Oh yeah, that looks like fun.
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You know?
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So it, so it's something that,
something that I like to inject
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into the show at various times.
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But, uh, uh, a lot of time, I don't
think it's one of the things that would
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draw, necessarily, draw people in or a
very, very, very niche audience for that.
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But, um, I loved what you're saying
about the, um, the, the scars and
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the, uh, open wounds because I've
seen that very much on stage.
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I've been working in an organization
where someone was on stage, like leading
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the organization, being the head speaker
for that, and unraveling emotionally on
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stage in front of 3000 or more people.
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Uh, absolute catastrophe,
as you can imagine.
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Marianne Hickman: there done that?
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John: Right.
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So it is, it is not nice to watch.
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It's not nice to be a part of,
it can't be nice to experience.
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It must be terrifying, um, when you
know that you're losing your audience.
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And, uh, when, as far as credibility
goes, if, if there's even a whiff
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that you are on a downward streak
or on heading down somewhere, you've
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already lost your audience that
your credibility is, is shot at that
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Marianne Hickman: point
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John: So, so I think this is a,
a super important thing, but, um.
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I do, I've been talking a lot
recently about the whole thing
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of performing or connecting about
the episode I'm putting out.
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Uh, tomorrow is, is mostly about that
and I had this experience last week doing
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open mic of, um, getting up on stage.
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Just taking the first few moments
to connect with the audience.
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And I think that made the biggest
difference for me over pretty much
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anyone else who went up on that stage
that night of just taking that moment.
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And I do see, especially with, with
things like open mic, people just go
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out there, they wanna perform, but
they don't take the time to connect.
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But when you do.
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The audience is with you.
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They're on, they're on your side.
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They're, uh, they're along with you.
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And that means it is about them.
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It's about relationship, it's
about connection and, uh, gosh.
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Yeah.
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So I can go on my doing my
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Marianne Hickman: little I totally with
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John: you
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Marianne Hickman: Yeah
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John: because I know, I know you, we've
talked about a little bit already when we
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had a, a chat a while back about comedy
and stand up and open mics and stuff.
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And I know this is something
that you do as well.
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And, uh, and I feel that.
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I feel, and I think you agreed with this
as well, that, um, it's something that I
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always think should be essential as part
of speaking and presentation training
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to get up on stage and do some comedy
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Marianne Hickman: Absolutely.
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John: stand up.
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Marianne Hickman: Oh,
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John: I'd love to know from you,
why do you think that's essential?
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Marianne Hickman: Well, so Mr.
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Rogers taught me this, and I didn't know
he was teaching me this because I was six.
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But, uh, I, I used to watch, I
remember I was five years old because
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I had a schedule as a 5-year-old.
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This is how OCDI am.
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I had a schedule as a 5-year-old.
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I remember it to this day.
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Now, this was 35 years ago, so I'm
not ashamed to admit that I'm 40.
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Toss.
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Toss, right?
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Okay.
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So at 10 o'clock every Monday
through Friday, Sesame Street was
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on, and that was on for half an hour.
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And then at 10 30, I watched Mr.
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Rogers, and then I had lunch,
and then I went to school.
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But 10 30.
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Was was my time.
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And I've done a little bit of research
on, on Fred Rogers and what he did
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for children's television and the fact
that he stood up in front of Senate,
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the fact that he was in the military.
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He's a fascinating guy.
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If there was anyone that I could
ever interview on my podcast,
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it'd be him in Robin Williams.
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It'd be a hoot.
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But I remember watching, uh, Fred
Rogers and he had this routine
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and he, if you remember Mr.
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Rogers neighborhood, he would.
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Come home and he'd take off his suit and
he'd put on his sweater and he'd play
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with the puppets, and he would just teach.
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We didn't know that he
was teaching compassion.
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We didn't know that he
was teaching leadership.
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We didn't know that he was
teaching critical thinking.
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We didn't know that he was
teaching problem solving skills.
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We just knew that we were having fun.
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We knew that we were watching that
little trolley come through and tu
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and, and just take over the experience.
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And Fred Rogers understood something.
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He said, we learn better.
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When we're having fun, we just do.
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We learn better when we're having fun.
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And he said specifically that children
learn better when we're having fun.
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And I don't know about you, but I
have never stopped being a child.
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Just ask my husband.
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There's parts of me that are
childish versus childlike.
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I understand there's a difference.
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I have both.
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But this, this concept of standup
comedy, know, I was talking to my friend,
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uh, Sarah, who owns another podcast.
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The way I used to teach public speaking
exclusively had an what I call the EKG of
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energy, where we start at the peak state
and we go down and tell the dark parts
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of our story and then we climb out of it.
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There's validity to that as well,
but sad isn't the only emotion.
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Traumatic isn't the only emotion.
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Those can be leverageable parts of
a story, and if we're gonna look to
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one of the greatest actors of all
times, we have to look no further
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than once again, Raven Williams.
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Every movie that he made that I have
watched anyway has had been a yin
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and yang of both tragedy and comedy.
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If you take a look at Mrs.
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Doubtfire, it's hilarious, but it
also deals with real family issues
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like blended families and divorce.
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If you take a look at what dreams
may come, this one has to do with
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suicide, as does dead poet society.
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So he also understood the the
duality of comedy and learning.
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Sometimes, uh, this is not even
a, sometimes this is all the time
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you and I are in life school.
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None of us have ever done this day before.
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Sometimes when we pray for things, we
receive the most beautiful blessings
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with the most hideous wrapping paper.
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And if we can get through the hideous
wrapping paper, there is a blessing to
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be found in there, but it's crazy how.
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Some people stop at the wrapping
paper and say, Ew, this is gross.
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I don't want this.
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I did that when I had my divorce.
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I did that when I lost my job and said,
Ew, this is hideous wrapping paper.
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But if we just are willing to rip
it off and go through the work,
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and sometimes there's paper cuts
involved of finding the gift inside.
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You know what comedy does is it
speeds up the process, laughing
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about it speeds up the process.
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I literally, I, I am, I'm ashamed
to admit this, but it is the truth.
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When I first started looking at.
319
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Comedy and public speaking.
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I didn't know how to do it.
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I was like, I think I used to be funny.
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I dunno if they were laughing at me.
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00:16:06,603 --> 00:16:08,973
I don't, it doesn't matter,
but I wanna be funny again.
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So I, John, I literally Googled it.
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I said How to be funny again.
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And I bought the first book that I
found and it says, do you talk funny?
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And I was like, sold.
328
00:16:20,403 --> 00:16:21,003
I'm buying it.
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00:16:21,498 --> 00:16:25,608
I'm so glad I did because
this breaks down the science.
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Here I am nerding out again, the
science of comedy and what makes people
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laugh because when we laugh, we retain
more, we retain more information,
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we retain better information.
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It makes that wrapping paper not so ugly
and it shortens the duration of suffering.
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It just does.
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I, I saw a lady who on Instagram.
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She, her Instagram was all
about her husband's fight with
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cancer, and it was terrible.
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It was tragic.
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00:16:55,533 --> 00:16:59,853
And ultimately, I, I don't know if the,
the right language is that he lost the
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fight, but he did pass away and she
came back on social media months, months
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later, maybe even a year later, and she
came back with this reel that people who
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have dealt with loss will understand.
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00:17:11,762 --> 00:17:13,593
I might have a macab sense of humor.
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We'll see.
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But she came back with this reel and.
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In this reel, she put up a camera.
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You can see the inside of her house.
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She's walking through the front drawer,
dressed all in black, holding an urn.
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00:17:27,933 --> 00:17:31,293
And she said That moment when you come
back to social media after your husband
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passes away, and she's like, Hey, hi.
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We're back.
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00:17:37,743 --> 00:17:39,873
And she in the, in the
caption, she nailed it.
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She said, you might not get my sense of
humor, but this is how I cope with this.
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John: Right.
355
00:17:44,853 --> 00:17:46,713
Marianne Hickman: This is how I'm
dealing with this and the comments.
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00:17:46,923 --> 00:17:49,203
You know, my favorite comedy
section in all the world is the
357
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comment section on Instagram.
358
00:17:50,493 --> 00:17:52,833
That's why I go to
Instagram, the internet.
359
00:17:52,833 --> 00:17:53,793
You guys are killing it.
360
00:17:53,793 --> 00:17:54,813
You guys are so funny.
361
00:17:54,813 --> 00:17:56,853
And they were lighting it up
and we were laughing together,
362
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we were crying together.
363
00:17:58,293 --> 00:17:59,643
We're tipping drinks together.
364
00:17:59,643 --> 00:18:00,033
Who knows?
365
00:18:00,663 --> 00:18:05,073
But this is, this is the,
the joy that is in life now.
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There's a lot of inappropriate humor,
and I know that we have varying
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degrees of acceptance for that.
368
00:18:09,858 --> 00:18:12,468
I believe God when he said men
are that they might have joy.
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00:18:12,498 --> 00:18:16,068
I believe God when he says he has
a sense of humor, and by golly,
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00:18:16,068 --> 00:18:19,038
my days are just better when I'm
looking for reasons to laugh.
371
00:18:20,818 --> 00:18:23,938
John: Yeah, I, I think that's
a, a lovely attitude to have.
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00:18:23,938 --> 00:18:30,808
I think, uh, my experience has been,
um, I think comedy humor is a great way
373
00:18:30,808 --> 00:18:36,448
of reframing and so much of coaching
and development and transformation.
374
00:18:36,808 --> 00:18:40,468
It's about reframing ourselves
on things and if we can.
375
00:18:41,053 --> 00:18:44,473
At least reframe ourselves to take
life a bit less seriously sometimes
376
00:18:44,743 --> 00:18:48,883
and to to have a bit more fun
with things or be more playful.
377
00:18:49,243 --> 00:18:55,573
I think we can make our life experience
a lot more enjoyable, bearable because
378
00:18:55,813 --> 00:18:59,983
goodness knows there's a lot of
unpleasantness going on in the world
379
00:18:59,983 --> 00:19:05,443
right now and, and if we can have people
laugh and bring some joy into people's
380
00:19:05,443 --> 00:19:09,463
lives and at the same time do that for
ourselves as well, I think that in alone.
381
00:19:10,053 --> 00:19:13,893
Has great value, but if you can add
into that, that they're learning
382
00:19:13,893 --> 00:19:17,103
something, they're transforming or
changing something about themselves,
383
00:19:17,493 --> 00:19:19,743
the the value is, uh, priceless
384
00:19:20,373 --> 00:19:22,248
Marianne Hickman: in
those situations Yeah.
385
00:19:22,248 --> 00:19:24,918
It's, think about the, the
reels that you share the most.
386
00:19:25,308 --> 00:19:26,063
They're the ones that make you laugh.
387
00:19:27,528 --> 00:19:30,678
They're the ones that are funny and I
don't know about you, but dude, I have
388
00:19:30,678 --> 00:19:32,268
all this pressure now to be funny.
389
00:19:32,268 --> 00:19:33,588
I don't know if I'm doing it right.
390
00:19:33,888 --> 00:19:35,958
I'm like, I talk about
comedy, comedy a lot.
391
00:19:35,958 --> 00:19:36,498
I don't, I don't know.
392
00:19:36,498 --> 00:19:37,518
Am I even funny?
393
00:19:37,758 --> 00:19:39,798
Do I even have, am I an authority on this?
394
00:19:39,858 --> 00:19:40,548
I don't know.
395
00:19:40,728 --> 00:19:42,558
But, uh, I'm, I'm a student of it.
396
00:19:42,558 --> 00:19:46,008
I'm learning and, uh, I just hope
by the end of the day or the end
397
00:19:46,008 --> 00:19:48,708
of the time that people have, their
attention spans much shorter than a
398
00:19:48,708 --> 00:19:50,268
day that they've smiled a little more.
399
00:19:50,358 --> 00:19:50,958
That's my goal.
400
00:19:51,048 --> 00:19:52,278
If we've done that, then we've won.
401
00:19:52,758 --> 00:19:56,118
John: Yeah, I think you
probably are funnier.
402
00:19:56,118 --> 00:19:57,168
I think we're all funny.
403
00:19:57,228 --> 00:19:58,578
Uh, and we know if we're not.
404
00:19:58,608 --> 00:20:02,268
I think generally we know if we're not,
uh, we just don't have much of a sense of
405
00:20:02,268 --> 00:20:05,718
humor about stuff and we don't generally
find things that most people find funny.
406
00:20:05,988 --> 00:20:07,488
I think there are definitely people who.
407
00:20:08,448 --> 00:20:14,028
Kind of flat line when it comes to a sense
of humor and don't really go into, but
408
00:20:14,028 --> 00:20:15,228
I do think they're few and far between.
409
00:20:15,228 --> 00:20:18,288
So I think if you can find humor
and if you can laugh at stuff
410
00:20:18,288 --> 00:20:21,138
and you make your friends laugh,
sometimes you could be funny.
411
00:20:21,408 --> 00:20:25,368
And I think that's something that I've
picked up from talking to a lot of
412
00:20:25,428 --> 00:20:29,058
professional people, uh, comedians,
people who teach comedy as well.
413
00:20:30,183 --> 00:20:32,763
I think it's such an important
skill to have on the stage.
414
00:20:32,853 --> 00:20:35,973
Uh, and one of the things that, that
kind of leads us into is talking about
415
00:20:35,973 --> 00:20:41,703
this whole, uh, when you are delivering
something, a keynote, a training, or
416
00:20:41,703 --> 00:20:46,923
whatever it is, if you don't have some
level of entertainment factor within that.
417
00:20:48,033 --> 00:20:51,123
It's gonna be hard going for
you and for everyone who's
418
00:20:51,123 --> 00:20:51,873
Marianne Hickman: having for
419
00:20:51,873 --> 00:20:53,973
John: everybody listening to
you, for everyone involved.
420
00:20:54,243 --> 00:20:58,413
And so the entertainment factor is
really important and I'd love to
421
00:20:58,413 --> 00:21:04,623
get your take on, uh, what that can
or should look like and how we can
422
00:21:04,623 --> 00:21:07,233
perhaps be a little more entertaining
423
00:21:07,233 --> 00:21:07,773
Marianne Hickman: when we're on
424
00:21:07,773 --> 00:21:08,223
John: a platform.
425
00:21:09,093 --> 00:21:11,553
Marianne Hickman: Okay, so this
is, this is really fun because I, I
426
00:21:11,553 --> 00:21:16,653
first started inadvertently studying
this when I was, uh, gosh, I was
427
00:21:16,653 --> 00:21:19,053
probably 10 or eight years old.
428
00:21:19,473 --> 00:21:22,473
And my, in my church, we
used to do sketches, skits.
429
00:21:22,623 --> 00:21:26,013
They called them road shows back in
the day, but oh my gosh, that was,
430
00:21:26,013 --> 00:21:29,283
it was like a theater portion of the
church, and they would take some.
431
00:21:29,868 --> 00:21:32,058
Theme and then we'd have to
create a sketch about it.
432
00:21:32,058 --> 00:21:37,788
And I will never forget this, this, uh, it
was a, in our church, we call them wards.
433
00:21:37,788 --> 00:21:39,888
It's basically a geographical
boundary where everyone that's a
434
00:21:39,888 --> 00:21:42,228
member in that geographical boundary
would go to church together.
435
00:21:42,498 --> 00:21:47,148
So it was a different ward
and they had this sketch about
436
00:21:48,198 --> 00:21:51,048
these time traveling outhouse.
437
00:21:53,178 --> 00:21:54,078
It's already funny, right?
438
00:21:54,198 --> 00:21:56,748
Chime traveling outhouse and they
all climbed in this outhouse,
439
00:21:56,748 --> 00:21:58,038
like clowns in a clown car.
440
00:21:58,428 --> 00:22:02,268
And they went somewhere and I'll never,
I don't remember where they went or what
441
00:22:02,268 --> 00:22:06,678
they were doing there, but I remember
on the stage they, uh, transported
442
00:22:06,678 --> 00:22:08,058
the outhouse to a new environment.
443
00:22:08,058 --> 00:22:11,868
So the lights went down, lots of
stage hands moving things around.
444
00:22:12,078 --> 00:22:12,798
The lights go back up.
445
00:22:12,798 --> 00:22:16,758
The outhouse is there, but there's
a new scene on the stage and I think
446
00:22:16,758 --> 00:22:20,028
they're in the middle of some alien
territory, maybe on Mars or something.
447
00:22:21,123 --> 00:22:23,193
The, the dudes climb outta the outhouse.
448
00:22:23,193 --> 00:22:28,653
And you have to imagine some guy in
like a, a, a, I only can imagine it as a
449
00:22:28,653 --> 00:22:31,293
lumberjack hat and some big suspenders.
450
00:22:31,293 --> 00:22:33,153
Lots of flannel, hillbillies.
451
00:22:33,153 --> 00:22:35,133
Climb outta this outhouse,
probably 18 of them.
452
00:22:36,033 --> 00:22:38,163
And as they climb outta the house,
they start with the dialogue.
453
00:22:38,703 --> 00:22:45,783
And in the back of the scenery, the
outhouse collapses, totally falls over.
454
00:22:46,923 --> 00:22:48,273
And the, the.
455
00:22:48,888 --> 00:22:53,178
Lead character with the one with
the lumberjack hat illustrated,
456
00:22:53,178 --> 00:22:57,318
the principle I'm about to share
with you seamlessly, so perfectly.
457
00:22:57,768 --> 00:23:00,888
And the principle is that of yes, and
458
00:23:01,523 --> 00:23:01,873
John: Right.
459
00:23:02,028 --> 00:23:03,288
Marianne Hickman: this
is the yes and principle.
460
00:23:03,288 --> 00:23:06,198
He looked over at the
collapsing outhouse, Kaboom.
461
00:23:06,708 --> 00:23:09,948
The silence was so beautifully awkward.
462
00:23:09,948 --> 00:23:13,608
He milked it for all that it was
worth because the audience, the
463
00:23:13,788 --> 00:23:16,398
audience doesn't know at this point
if that was intentional or not.
464
00:23:16,488 --> 00:23:16,698
John: Right.
465
00:23:17,298 --> 00:23:17,808
Marianne Hickman: We have no clue.
466
00:23:19,443 --> 00:23:22,773
Instead of breaking character, he's
like, well, guess we're not going home.
467
00:23:24,303 --> 00:23:25,353
The audience laughs.
468
00:23:25,353 --> 00:23:27,543
And we, we learned later on that
that was a complete accident.
469
00:23:27,543 --> 00:23:28,623
It was a freak accident.
470
00:23:28,623 --> 00:23:30,303
We didn't, that wasn't supposed to happen.
471
00:23:30,603 --> 00:23:33,753
And he built it into the storyline
successfully implementing this
472
00:23:33,753 --> 00:23:38,373
principle of Yes, and, and this
is where it gets so fun in standup
473
00:23:38,403 --> 00:23:41,103
and in banter and an improv comedy.
474
00:23:41,853 --> 00:23:45,513
When someone introduces a scene,
and you can watch this if you
475
00:23:45,513 --> 00:23:46,623
watch whose line is it anyway?
476
00:23:46,623 --> 00:23:50,523
One of my favorite shows when
someone introduces a scene going
477
00:23:50,523 --> 00:23:54,933
with it introduces that level
of comedy because there can be a
478
00:23:54,933 --> 00:23:56,223
lot of humor in the unexpected.
479
00:23:57,273 --> 00:24:03,843
So if I'm on stage and my
slides fail, how do I Yes.
480
00:24:03,843 --> 00:24:04,293
And
481
00:24:05,123 --> 00:24:05,413
John: Yeah.
482
00:24:05,433 --> 00:24:08,013
Marianne Hickman: how do I
say yes and I'm not trying to
483
00:24:08,013 --> 00:24:10,953
lie or you know, say that, uh.
484
00:24:11,898 --> 00:24:13,728
I, I meant for them to dive.
485
00:24:14,028 --> 00:24:20,628
But if I go with it, then it can either be
successful or funny and successful, which
486
00:24:20,898 --> 00:24:22,248
I'm gonna bring in the funny if I can't.
487
00:24:22,638 --> 00:24:28,338
So there, there was a point back in,
gosh, it was probably 2015, I was
488
00:24:28,758 --> 00:24:30,978
teaching a, uh, a group of people.
489
00:24:30,978 --> 00:24:33,168
I used to do a morning power
hour, which basically, man,
490
00:24:33,168 --> 00:24:34,038
I was on stage for an hour.
491
00:24:34,038 --> 00:24:37,248
We do this really chill meditation
and then we shift into body movement.
492
00:24:37,248 --> 00:24:38,568
And what I liked to do.
493
00:24:39,378 --> 00:24:41,208
Get the audience to do
a hundred jumping jacks.
494
00:24:41,208 --> 00:24:44,088
I later learned that that was a bad
idea because there was one man in
495
00:24:44,088 --> 00:24:45,798
the audience who suffered a seizure.
496
00:24:46,038 --> 00:24:47,778
He was fine, but I didn't do that again.
497
00:24:47,988 --> 00:24:50,748
Uh, anyway, so we were doing
a hundred jumping jacks.
498
00:24:50,748 --> 00:24:54,558
Now one thing, ladies, if
you're listening, don't do this.
499
00:24:55,368 --> 00:24:56,748
I have had five children.
500
00:24:56,928 --> 00:24:57,378
Okay?
501
00:24:57,918 --> 00:25:02,808
Um, and any woman that has born
children knows that you're not
502
00:25:02,808 --> 00:25:04,428
built like you were before.
503
00:25:04,518 --> 00:25:08,568
Once the after happens, I had
five children at the time.
504
00:25:09,228 --> 00:25:10,578
Delivered five children.
505
00:25:10,668 --> 00:25:14,208
You know where I'm going with this
all over the stage anyway, so I had
506
00:25:14,208 --> 00:25:16,998
two liters of tea right before I did.
507
00:25:17,358 --> 00:25:17,568
Yeah.
508
00:25:17,568 --> 00:25:18,918
See, you know where I'm going with
509
00:25:18,918 --> 00:25:19,208
John: Yeah.
510
00:25:19,383 --> 00:25:23,418
Marianne Hickman: Yeah liters of
tea doing a hundred jumping jacks.
511
00:25:23,418 --> 00:25:26,383
I'm getting into jumping jack 1920
and I'm starting to feel the pressure.
512
00:25:28,548 --> 00:25:31,188
So I stopped the jumping jacks just
to walk around the room motivate,
513
00:25:31,188 --> 00:25:32,088
but then the guilt hits me.
514
00:25:32,088 --> 00:25:34,158
I'm like, oh, if I'm making my
audience do the jumping jacks,
515
00:25:34,188 --> 00:25:35,208
I have to do them with them.
516
00:25:35,538 --> 00:25:39,168
So about jumping jack 40 and 50 and
back into it again, and the pressure
517
00:25:39,168 --> 00:25:41,448
is no longer building, it is releasing,
518
00:25:41,808 --> 00:25:42,048
John: Oof.
519
00:25:43,398 --> 00:25:46,458
Marianne Hickman: and I'm just
praying that my gene are dark enough
520
00:25:46,593 --> 00:25:46,813
John: to
521
00:25:47,958 --> 00:25:50,688
Marianne Hickman: hide the flood.
522
00:25:50,838 --> 00:25:54,948
It was like Noah and I, we get
each other now like this flood.
523
00:25:55,413 --> 00:25:56,823
Was unstoppable.
524
00:25:56,913 --> 00:25:58,023
It was complete.
525
00:25:58,053 --> 00:26:00,063
I'm pretty sure it still
smelled like chamomile.
526
00:26:01,323 --> 00:26:05,343
I, I was, oh my gosh, I was mortified,
but I had 20 minutes left on stage.
527
00:26:06,243 --> 00:26:07,203
What am I gonna do?
528
00:26:07,203 --> 00:26:08,433
Am I gonna say into the microphone?
529
00:26:08,433 --> 00:26:08,883
Sorry guys.
530
00:26:08,883 --> 00:26:09,723
I just peed my pants.
531
00:26:09,723 --> 00:26:10,473
I gotta go.
532
00:26:11,583 --> 00:26:12,663
I just stuck with it.
533
00:26:12,663 --> 00:26:16,203
I kept a distance from the audience 'cause
I was really afraid about the smell.
534
00:26:16,728 --> 00:26:20,148
I was nervous that they would smell it
and I would steal my credibility, but
535
00:26:20,358 --> 00:26:21,678
the, that's not even the funniest part.
536
00:26:21,678 --> 00:26:24,828
The funniest part is when I got
off stage, I called my husband and
537
00:26:24,828 --> 00:26:27,018
I was like, don't ask questions.
538
00:26:27,018 --> 00:26:28,128
Just bring a change of clothes.
539
00:26:28,428 --> 00:26:31,068
I was so mortified, I
didn't wanna tell anyone.
540
00:26:31,068 --> 00:26:32,208
So what's the first thing I do?
541
00:26:33,858 --> 00:26:35,508
Grab my friend Heather, and
I said, Heather, you're not
542
00:26:35,538 --> 00:26:36,198
gonna believe what happened.
543
00:26:36,198 --> 00:26:38,238
You can't tell anyone, but I
just peed my pants on stage.
544
00:26:38,868 --> 00:26:40,728
Then I go to my next friend,
Stacey, you're not gonna
545
00:26:40,728 --> 00:26:41,478
believe what just happened.
546
00:26:41,478 --> 00:26:42,228
You can't tell anyone.
547
00:26:42,228 --> 00:26:45,048
But I just peed my pants on stage
and then I grabbed my friend, Travis.
548
00:26:45,048 --> 00:26:46,368
Travis, you're not gonna
believe what just happened.
549
00:26:46,368 --> 00:26:47,208
Don't tell anyone.
550
00:26:47,778 --> 00:26:50,118
But I just peed my pants on
stage and by then I've told like
551
00:26:50,118 --> 00:26:52,128
30 people, don't tell anyone.
552
00:26:53,178 --> 00:26:58,878
And so now this, this story that I was
so mortified by has now become one of
553
00:26:58,878 --> 00:27:02,688
my funniest moments because what could
have been really, really embarrassing?
554
00:27:03,318 --> 00:27:07,548
Lost all of its embarrassing power
because I just owned it and made it funny.
555
00:27:07,548 --> 00:27:08,298
And you know what?
556
00:27:08,958 --> 00:27:13,218
There stage fright has no power over
me anymore because if you can do
557
00:27:13,218 --> 00:27:15,528
that, nothing scares you on stage.
558
00:27:16,523 --> 00:27:16,943
John: Right.
559
00:27:17,033 --> 00:27:20,003
I think that that's, that's
super, super important.
560
00:27:20,003 --> 00:27:23,393
I would be mortified as well in that
situation, but hope I would be able
561
00:27:23,393 --> 00:27:26,153
to turn, turn it around like you did.
562
00:27:26,513 --> 00:27:30,473
Uh, gosh, you're making me think of
an, an interview, uh, situation I had
563
00:27:30,473 --> 00:27:34,193
years ago now where something similar
happened to me before the interview
564
00:27:37,253 --> 00:27:37,553
and I still
565
00:27:37,683 --> 00:27:39,993
Marianne Hickman: when your screen
goes dark and you just abandon ship.
566
00:27:40,578 --> 00:27:41,778
John: I got the job, so it was good.
567
00:27:42,108 --> 00:27:43,938
Um, something worked.
568
00:27:43,938 --> 00:27:44,688
Something worked.
569
00:27:45,168 --> 00:27:47,538
But uh, but yeah, this is,
this is really important stuff.
570
00:27:47,538 --> 00:27:50,418
You know, I, I sometimes talk about
like the first time I ever got on
571
00:27:50,418 --> 00:27:53,958
stage to do open mic, and, uh, I
think I maybe spoke to you about this
572
00:27:53,958 --> 00:27:58,758
before as well, about saying that
I just gave myself permission to.
573
00:27:59,193 --> 00:28:00,003
Completely flop.
574
00:28:00,063 --> 00:28:03,963
I could, I could bomb and it
was okay, and several people
575
00:28:03,963 --> 00:28:05,583
bombed before I went up on stage.
576
00:28:05,583 --> 00:28:08,163
I just thought, well, it,
yeah, it is not a big deal.
577
00:28:08,163 --> 00:28:10,233
Several people have
already completely bombed.
578
00:28:10,533 --> 00:28:12,273
If I get a laugh, great.
579
00:28:12,513 --> 00:28:14,193
If I get no laughs, fine.
580
00:28:14,193 --> 00:28:16,503
I'm rather gonna be like,
eh, it's not for me.
581
00:28:16,503 --> 00:28:18,633
Or I'll come back again and try again.
582
00:28:18,873 --> 00:28:20,643
But I took away the stakes.
583
00:28:20,643 --> 00:28:23,103
I took away all the sort
of, it has to be good.
584
00:28:23,103 --> 00:28:24,033
It has to be funny.
585
00:28:24,543 --> 00:28:27,483
Once I took all that off
of myself, I could relax.
586
00:28:27,888 --> 00:28:28,878
Have fun with it.
587
00:28:28,878 --> 00:28:32,298
The pressure was off and I just
got to go up there and have fun
588
00:28:32,298 --> 00:28:34,578
and be playful and I got laughs.
589
00:28:35,058 --> 00:28:38,748
And I do think if I hadn't gone
up there with that, if, if I'd
590
00:28:38,748 --> 00:28:43,278
been, I'd been afraid of doing
standup for such a long time.
591
00:28:43,278 --> 00:28:46,488
I'd, it was like on my bucket list,
but I was terrified of it as well, if
592
00:28:46,608 --> 00:28:48,378
Marianne Hickman: Uh, that's,
that's how you know it's good
593
00:28:48,688 --> 00:28:49,038
John: Right.
594
00:28:49,128 --> 00:28:49,218
and
595
00:28:49,218 --> 00:28:49,818
Marianne Hickman: you're scared of it.
596
00:28:50,403 --> 00:28:52,953
John: And so it is one of those, uh, my
friend kept saying, one of my friends
597
00:28:52,953 --> 00:28:53,883
kept me, when are you gonna do it?
598
00:28:53,883 --> 00:28:54,513
When are you gonna do it?
599
00:28:54,573 --> 00:28:57,213
And they said, there's an open mic
night in English now in the city.
600
00:28:57,213 --> 00:28:58,833
I'm like, oh, man, when
are you gonna do it?
601
00:28:58,833 --> 00:29:01,713
When you gonna, uh, and eventually I
just like, all right, I'm gonna do this.
602
00:29:01,713 --> 00:29:02,463
I said, I'm gonna do this.
603
00:29:02,793 --> 00:29:06,753
And, and then I, I interviewed, uh,
Judy Carter who wrote the new comedy
604
00:29:06,753 --> 00:29:11,583
Bible, and that chat inspired me
to, to just go for it and do it.
605
00:29:11,583 --> 00:29:13,623
But it was so important that.
606
00:29:14,013 --> 00:29:16,353
It didn't have to be
perfect the first time up.
607
00:29:16,863 --> 00:29:20,853
And I could, I, I think I forgot
some of my, some of the things that
608
00:29:20,853 --> 00:29:24,468
I thought were some of my funniest
jokes, but I still got laughs and,
609
00:29:24,473 --> 00:29:26,163
and so I tried to take that with me.
610
00:29:26,163 --> 00:29:30,303
Pretty much anytime I go on, on
stage, try and take the stake down
611
00:29:30,303 --> 00:29:32,823
and just say it's okay to, you don't
need to be stressed about this.
612
00:29:32,823 --> 00:29:33,633
You can just go have fun.
613
00:29:33,633 --> 00:29:35,313
I think that's some, there's
some essence in that.
614
00:29:35,313 --> 00:29:36,148
And what, and what you're saying there.
615
00:29:36,993 --> 00:29:38,043
Marianne Hickman: Oh, 100%.
616
00:29:38,043 --> 00:29:40,203
I mean, do you feel high
pressure when you go have a
617
00:29:40,203 --> 00:29:41,493
conversation with your best friend?
618
00:29:42,633 --> 00:29:43,418
John: Not usually.
619
00:29:43,473 --> 00:29:44,613
Marianne Hickman: just no.
620
00:29:44,613 --> 00:29:47,943
I mean, I, I don't even feel high
pressure if I'm bringing up a tough
621
00:29:47,943 --> 00:29:51,603
conversation because they're my
friend and I know they've got my back.
622
00:29:51,963 --> 00:29:54,963
Now, when you're going in front of an
audience, you don't have that reassurance.
623
00:29:54,963 --> 00:29:56,253
You don't know what the audience has.
624
00:29:56,253 --> 00:29:57,393
Your back now, what you do know.
625
00:29:58,263 --> 00:30:01,143
That the audience wants you
to do well, they didn't bring
626
00:30:01,143 --> 00:30:02,433
their rotten tomatoes with them.
627
00:30:03,423 --> 00:30:08,013
In most cases, they want you to do
well, so who's gonna have your back?
628
00:30:08,013 --> 00:30:09,333
It's just what you said, John.
629
00:30:09,333 --> 00:30:10,323
It's yourself.
630
00:30:10,743 --> 00:30:14,643
I know that after this is over,
I'm still gonna have a pulse.
631
00:30:15,633 --> 00:30:19,113
The chances of me dying are not zero,
but they're very, very, very small.
632
00:30:20,088 --> 00:30:21,018
From stage fright.
633
00:30:21,018 --> 00:30:25,218
So odds are we're gonna survive
this and we're gonna be fine.
634
00:30:25,218 --> 00:30:25,908
And you know what, John?
635
00:30:25,908 --> 00:30:30,228
I take the same approach to high stakes
situations that aren't the stage.
636
00:30:32,178 --> 00:30:34,548
And I have to admit this, and my
husband knows this, so I'm gonna
637
00:30:34,668 --> 00:30:36,078
feel okay saying this out loud.
638
00:30:37,428 --> 00:30:41,028
When, when I got divorced,
that was a high stakes thing.
639
00:30:41,028 --> 00:30:45,078
I had five kids at the time, and it
was the toughest decision, one of the
640
00:30:45,078 --> 00:30:46,818
toughest decisions I have ever made.
641
00:30:47,493 --> 00:30:48,303
It's not just me.
642
00:30:48,303 --> 00:30:49,773
It's affecting, it's my five children.
643
00:30:51,483 --> 00:30:55,113
And in, by the way, I do not
recommend being a young, single
644
00:30:55,113 --> 00:30:56,673
adult, especially in Utah.
645
00:30:57,243 --> 00:31:01,023
If it, if there was a Yelp review
for this, it'd be like one star.
646
00:31:01,173 --> 00:31:02,553
Do not recommend thumbs down.
647
00:31:02,553 --> 00:31:03,003
It was terrible.
648
00:31:03,003 --> 00:31:03,363
I hated it.
649
00:31:03,933 --> 00:31:08,913
But what I did love was rediscovering
who I was and maybe for the
650
00:31:08,913 --> 00:31:10,293
first time discovering who I was.
651
00:31:10,293 --> 00:31:14,463
And when I went into my, my
second and final marriage.
652
00:31:15,498 --> 00:31:18,798
This was a high stakes thing
because I knew it had to be final.
653
00:31:19,518 --> 00:31:24,258
I knew I couldn't make the same mistakes
that I had made in my first marriage.
654
00:31:24,648 --> 00:31:29,238
I knew I couldn't be the same person I
was in my first marriage 'cause that would
655
00:31:29,238 --> 00:31:30,888
invite the old mistakes to come back in.
656
00:31:31,638 --> 00:31:32,808
But this had to be final.
657
00:31:32,808 --> 00:31:37,758
And this thought of it is so high
stakes and, and I can't mess up all
658
00:31:37,758 --> 00:31:40,248
of this pressure made dating vary.
659
00:31:41,283 --> 00:31:43,473
Awful on top of already being awful.
660
00:31:43,713 --> 00:31:44,703
It was just the worst.
661
00:31:45,663 --> 00:31:48,873
But when I did what you just said,
and I let go and said, I'm gonna
662
00:31:48,873 --> 00:31:51,783
trust myself, I know I have my back.
663
00:31:52,833 --> 00:31:57,573
All the pressure was off, all
the impersonation was off.
664
00:31:57,663 --> 00:32:02,223
All of the, the masking and the, you
know, the, and this is how it showed up.
665
00:32:02,643 --> 00:32:05,973
Now, I don't know about you, but
I can win any burping contest.
666
00:32:05,973 --> 00:32:07,683
I enter hands down.
667
00:32:08,043 --> 00:32:08,583
No problem.
668
00:32:08,583 --> 00:32:11,313
My friends used to tell me it was
my mating call, and I thought for a
669
00:32:11,313 --> 00:32:12,603
while that that's why I was single.
670
00:32:14,013 --> 00:32:17,193
And uh, I remember the first
time I went to the gym.
671
00:32:17,553 --> 00:32:19,833
With my now husband, we hadn't
even started dating yet.
672
00:32:19,833 --> 00:32:22,953
We went to the gym together and as we
left the gym, I don't know if it was
673
00:32:22,953 --> 00:32:27,273
the pre-workout combined with the bench
press, but I let out a 10 outta 10.
674
00:32:27,273 --> 00:32:28,383
It had the duration.
675
00:32:28,533 --> 00:32:29,703
It had the volume.
676
00:32:29,883 --> 00:32:31,263
It had the intensity.
677
00:32:31,383 --> 00:32:32,073
It was amazing.
678
00:32:32,073 --> 00:32:36,723
We rate each other by the way, and
I realized I had let out this huge
679
00:32:36,753 --> 00:32:40,233
burp as I'm walking next to this
adorable man who I haven't even started
680
00:32:40,233 --> 00:32:43,203
dating yet, and after I let it out,
there was a moment of, oh my gosh.
681
00:32:44,478 --> 00:32:49,038
Maybe I shouldn't have done that in
front of this man who I want to date.
682
00:32:49,638 --> 00:32:51,228
Uh, that could be really embarrassing.
683
00:32:51,618 --> 00:32:54,618
And it quickly evaporated when he
looked at me and he is like, I'd
684
00:32:54,618 --> 00:32:55,878
get that a solid nine and a half.
685
00:32:57,048 --> 00:32:58,698
And I was like, I found my person.
686
00:32:58,758 --> 00:33:00,078
It was my mating call.
687
00:33:00,138 --> 00:33:01,038
This is epic.
688
00:33:01,308 --> 00:33:06,108
So all of that to say just this, this
release of pressure that you're talking
689
00:33:06,108 --> 00:33:10,488
about, it, it's okay to be yourself and
guess what yourself is gonna mess up.
690
00:33:11,073 --> 00:33:14,553
Do you have enough compassion for
yourself to be like, that's okay.
691
00:33:14,673 --> 00:33:17,163
Pick yourself up, dust yourself
off, and let's move on.
692
00:33:17,733 --> 00:33:21,423
John: Yeah, these, the too, too
many things in life, uh, where we
693
00:33:21,423 --> 00:33:24,898
hold too many times, where we hold
ourselves back for fear of what
694
00:33:24,898 --> 00:33:25,938
other people are gonna think of us.
695
00:33:27,798 --> 00:33:32,868
Yet, when we own who we are, when
we are confident in who we are,
696
00:33:32,868 --> 00:33:33,918
and we just show up with that.
697
00:33:33,918 --> 00:33:39,408
And as you say, let go and be yourself,
and some people are gonna like it.
698
00:33:39,408 --> 00:33:40,128
Some people aren't.
699
00:33:40,623 --> 00:33:42,213
And that's exactly it.
700
00:33:42,213 --> 00:33:44,283
That's how you find your people.
701
00:33:44,283 --> 00:33:48,513
That's you find the right people to,
to be getting up in front of, you know,
702
00:33:48,513 --> 00:33:50,643
not everything can be for everybody.
703
00:33:51,063 --> 00:33:54,843
Um, you know, like perfumes or
colognes, it's like can smell
704
00:33:54,843 --> 00:33:59,978
great on one person and can smell
horrible on someone else's and else.
705
00:34:00,438 --> 00:34:02,478
And so not everything is for everybody.
706
00:34:02,748 --> 00:34:05,148
And, and that's true with
us and our personalities.
707
00:34:05,148 --> 00:34:09,408
And, and I do think it is this trying
to be for everybody or trying not to
708
00:34:09,408 --> 00:34:14,928
upset anyone or rock the apple carts
or, and just trying to be this image
709
00:34:14,928 --> 00:34:17,688
of who we think we're supposed to
be instead of just being ourselves.
710
00:34:18,047 --> 00:34:21,438
That stops us from being able
to connect, turns everything
711
00:34:21,438 --> 00:34:24,018
into a performance instead
712
00:34:24,018 --> 00:34:24,378
Marianne Hickman: of
713
00:34:25,368 --> 00:34:27,228
John: um, just being on stage.
714
00:34:27,648 --> 00:34:28,788
Marianne Hickman: Yeah, absolutely.
715
00:34:28,788 --> 00:34:29,663
And I think it comes from a deep.
716
00:34:31,172 --> 00:34:36,483
Deep, empty container within us
of not liking ourselves very much.
717
00:34:36,483 --> 00:34:38,253
That's why we're seeking
for it from other people.
718
00:34:38,253 --> 00:34:40,592
I want to be likable
because I don't like myself.
719
00:34:40,592 --> 00:34:42,213
People don't know the
end of that sentence.
720
00:34:43,938 --> 00:34:47,433
John: Right, and, and there is that
whole principle of you, you can't give.
721
00:34:48,378 --> 00:34:50,088
Other people what you don't have.
722
00:34:50,483 --> 00:34:55,217
And, and this this was one of those,
um, things that, you know, I, I
723
00:34:55,217 --> 00:34:56,628
had to learn that in relationships.
724
00:34:56,628 --> 00:34:59,298
I had to learn that, that I think a
lot of people are looking for that
725
00:34:59,418 --> 00:35:01,548
in, in, with the love of their life,
but they're looking for it in other
726
00:35:01,548 --> 00:35:06,288
places as well, of the validation, the
appreciation, the some, someone to get
727
00:35:06,288 --> 00:35:09,108
me, someone to fix me or whatever it is.
728
00:35:09,528 --> 00:35:12,768
And you have to be that
person for yourself.
729
00:35:13,443 --> 00:35:17,313
It took me, took me years to really
get to that and figure that out.
730
00:35:17,703 --> 00:35:19,953
But also when I figured
that out in relationships, I
731
00:35:19,953 --> 00:35:21,033
was also figuring that out.
732
00:35:21,903 --> 00:35:23,133
On stage as well.
733
00:35:23,133 --> 00:35:26,523
It's also figuring that in how I connect
to other people, it's like, all right, I,
734
00:35:26,643 --> 00:35:31,803
I am likable because I can, like myself,
I am lovable because I can love myself.
735
00:35:32,133 --> 00:35:33,213
I have that.
736
00:35:33,393 --> 00:35:34,533
I figured that out.
737
00:35:34,803 --> 00:35:38,283
Now I can have all the other stuff
that compliments it without needing
738
00:35:38,553 --> 00:35:40,953
without, without it having to be there.
739
00:35:40,983 --> 00:35:44,943
I, I'm still, I'm a whole person
without those things as well.
740
00:35:45,573 --> 00:35:47,103
Marianne Hickman: Absolutely that.
741
00:35:47,223 --> 00:35:47,733
Oh man.
742
00:35:48,093 --> 00:35:50,103
And you and I both know what
it's like to sit in front of
743
00:35:50,103 --> 00:35:52,893
someone who desperately needs it.
744
00:35:52,893 --> 00:35:53,913
It's very off-putting.
745
00:35:54,453 --> 00:35:57,663
It's, it's, I'm gonna use a very
strong word that I watched when
746
00:35:57,663 --> 00:36:00,303
I saw, when I watched Benedict
coming back to Sherlock Holmes.
747
00:36:00,303 --> 00:36:01,323
Have you seen this series?
748
00:36:01,473 --> 00:36:03,183
Oh, so good.
749
00:36:04,053 --> 00:36:06,243
He walks into the bathroom
with this reporter.
750
00:36:06,948 --> 00:36:10,998
And she's desperately trying to get
his attention and get a story with him.
751
00:36:11,298 --> 00:36:15,408
And he walks up to her with the most
mic drop phrase I've ever heard him say.
752
00:36:15,408 --> 00:36:17,028
And he said, it just
whispered in her hair.
753
00:36:17,028 --> 00:36:20,688
He said, you repel me.
754
00:36:21,948 --> 00:36:23,088
And I thought, whoa.
755
00:36:24,258 --> 00:36:25,098
Oh my gosh.
756
00:36:25,608 --> 00:36:29,238
Whoa, am am I repulsive?
757
00:36:29,778 --> 00:36:31,218
Am I repulsive to people?
758
00:36:31,218 --> 00:36:31,998
And you know what?
759
00:36:32,178 --> 00:36:33,198
I was worried about it then.
760
00:36:33,198 --> 00:36:34,128
And now I'm grateful for it.
761
00:36:34,158 --> 00:36:35,928
I repel people all the time.
762
00:36:36,393 --> 00:36:39,093
There are people that are repulsed
by me all the time and they're
763
00:36:39,093 --> 00:36:40,743
not my people and that's okay.
764
00:36:40,953 --> 00:36:42,903
I don't need them to like
me, the Queen of England.
765
00:36:42,933 --> 00:36:44,433
I don't think she would like me very much.
766
00:36:44,463 --> 00:36:45,633
I'm much too improper.
767
00:36:45,903 --> 00:36:46,653
That's okay.
768
00:36:47,043 --> 00:36:49,893
Well, I guess it doesn't matter
anymore, but the King of England, he
769
00:36:49,893 --> 00:36:50,943
probably would have the same opinion.
770
00:36:51,873 --> 00:36:52,923
That's okay.
771
00:36:52,923 --> 00:36:54,393
I'm okay with my people.
772
00:36:54,633 --> 00:36:55,653
In fact, I love my people.
773
00:36:55,653 --> 00:37:00,183
And you know what it, you mentioned
earlier a friend of yours who reflected
774
00:37:00,183 --> 00:37:03,543
something to you and, and pushed
something, you know, he's like, go try it.
775
00:37:03,543 --> 00:37:04,443
You've been talking about it forever.
776
00:37:04,443 --> 00:37:04,893
Go try it.
777
00:37:05,343 --> 00:37:09,063
Those are the people that I want to
attract, the people that love me for
778
00:37:09,063 --> 00:37:15,633
who I am and love me for who I can
be, and they nudge me there often.
779
00:37:15,693 --> 00:37:17,103
I like to hang around those people.
780
00:37:17,103 --> 00:37:18,423
I hope to find more of those people.
781
00:37:18,598 --> 00:37:20,283
John: And challenge you
in the healthy ways.
782
00:37:20,793 --> 00:37:21,453
Marianne Hickman: Yeah.
783
00:37:21,543 --> 00:37:22,023
Yeah.
784
00:37:22,053 --> 00:37:22,953
They said, well, you want this.
785
00:37:22,953 --> 00:37:24,003
Why aren't you going and getting it?
786
00:37:24,033 --> 00:37:24,333
Whoop.
787
00:37:25,473 --> 00:37:26,973
John: Yeah, I, I agree.
788
00:37:26,973 --> 00:37:27,843
I think so.
789
00:37:28,143 --> 00:37:30,003
Good to have those
people in, in our lives.
790
00:37:30,003 --> 00:37:33,753
And I think if you are, if you are the
person who's doing that for everyone
791
00:37:33,753 --> 00:37:36,333
else and you don't have anyone doing
that for you, you need to get into a
792
00:37:36,333 --> 00:37:39,003
room where you are not, where, where
there's people who can do that for you.
793
00:37:39,423 --> 00:37:41,463
Uh, 'cause I think team is, uh.
794
00:37:42,618 --> 00:37:45,528
We can get into a service attitude
sometimes where we think we have
795
00:37:45,528 --> 00:37:47,748
to be the person who's give,
give, give for everyone else, but
796
00:37:47,913 --> 00:37:48,993
Marianne Hickman: Especially as speakers.
797
00:37:49,233 --> 00:37:52,113
John: Right, especially speakers, but
we have to fill our own cup as well.
798
00:37:52,323 --> 00:37:54,753
And I think that can be very
hard for speakers when we're
799
00:37:54,963 --> 00:37:56,373
often working remotely.
800
00:37:56,373 --> 00:38:00,063
We're often traveling, you know, there's
all times where we don't, we're not always
801
00:38:00,063 --> 00:38:01,863
spending our time around other people.
802
00:38:02,283 --> 00:38:06,033
We have to probably make an
extra effort to have those things
803
00:38:06,033 --> 00:38:07,323
in our lives to some degree.
804
00:38:07,353 --> 00:38:11,943
But they are out there if we're willing
to put in the work to to find them.
805
00:38:11,943 --> 00:38:15,453
And they're completely worth the
investment of energy and time to do so.
806
00:38:16,163 --> 00:38:17,808
Marianne Hickman: Well, I
think that's an integrity play.
807
00:38:18,483 --> 00:38:22,323
How on earth can we get up on
stage or on a podcast or run our
808
00:38:22,323 --> 00:38:26,073
own event as speakers if we are
not students in a different room?
809
00:38:26,313 --> 00:38:26,603
John: Yeah.
810
00:38:26,973 --> 00:38:27,963
Marianne Hickman: That seems like it.
811
00:38:27,963 --> 00:38:28,863
Like how?
812
00:38:29,643 --> 00:38:32,343
How dare we, how dare we be?
813
00:38:32,343 --> 00:38:36,753
So presumptuous is to say, I've
arrived and I'm only leading
814
00:38:36,753 --> 00:38:38,343
now and I'm not following.
815
00:38:38,408 --> 00:38:39,183
No, no.
816
00:38:39,333 --> 00:38:41,643
That's in fact, if we're in the
audience, that's a hallmark.
817
00:38:41,913 --> 00:38:42,933
Something to watch for.
818
00:38:42,963 --> 00:38:45,363
Ask a speaker who their coach
is, and the three speaker who's
819
00:38:45,363 --> 00:38:46,443
not threatened will tell you.
820
00:38:47,658 --> 00:38:47,958
John: Yeah.
821
00:38:48,798 --> 00:38:53,298
Do you, do you feel, there's something
that I've noticed and, and maybe
822
00:38:53,298 --> 00:38:55,458
you have as well, that there is, um.
823
00:38:56,613 --> 00:39:02,733
Less of, uh, less attraction to maybe
less power in the guru these days
824
00:39:02,733 --> 00:39:05,403
in the, that, that sort of person
that we're talking about who's like,
825
00:39:05,703 --> 00:39:07,173
they've already got it all figured out.
826
00:39:07,173 --> 00:39:11,643
They've got all the answers and, uh, they
can tell you, eh, everything you need,
827
00:39:11,643 --> 00:39:13,113
you don't need to go anywhere else at all.
828
00:39:13,113 --> 00:39:14,448
Everything is, is here.
829
00:39:14,448 --> 00:39:18,393
You know, there's people who, um, I think
it was very common, like when I first
830
00:39:18,393 --> 00:39:22,173
got into personal development kind of
events back in the early two thousands.
831
00:39:22,653 --> 00:39:23,613
There was a lot of that.
832
00:39:23,823 --> 00:39:31,293
A lot of and, and now I think it's, people
are much more keen on having gen, genuine
833
00:39:31,293 --> 00:39:33,123
connection, genuine presence on stage.
834
00:39:33,573 --> 00:39:34,713
But have you seen that?
835
00:39:34,713 --> 00:39:35,763
Have you noticed that yourself?
836
00:39:35,918 --> 00:39:36,268
Right.
837
00:39:36,393 --> 00:39:41,133
Marianne Hickman: I think Tony Robbins
started the avalanche of the guru
838
00:39:41,493 --> 00:39:42,843
when he put out his Netflix special.
839
00:39:42,843 --> 00:39:47,433
I'm not your guru of all of the
people in the world that say that
840
00:39:48,003 --> 00:39:52,473
his had the most impact because he
is the man, the myth, the legend.
841
00:39:52,473 --> 00:39:59,613
He arguably started the life
coaching industry as, as the first.
842
00:40:00,468 --> 00:40:02,568
I dunno if he was the first,
but definitely the biggest and
843
00:40:02,568 --> 00:40:04,668
most well-known life coach.
844
00:40:04,998 --> 00:40:08,508
And when he put up that special
that said, I am not your guru, you
845
00:40:08,508 --> 00:40:10,248
don't even have to have watched it.
846
00:40:10,758 --> 00:40:14,958
To have the impact of that message
hit you like a ton of bricks.
847
00:40:15,408 --> 00:40:18,558
And you know, this, this, uh,
this bro thing I was talking about
848
00:40:18,558 --> 00:40:21,048
earlier is the antithesis of that.
849
00:40:21,078 --> 00:40:23,088
It screams, I'm your guru.
850
00:40:23,118 --> 00:40:25,818
I have arrived, I have all the answers.
851
00:40:26,148 --> 00:40:26,868
Uh, it, it's.
852
00:40:27,963 --> 00:40:32,523
In its worst cases, people are
basically saying, there's no
853
00:40:32,523 --> 00:40:33,843
difference between me and God.
854
00:40:34,833 --> 00:40:35,493
Hello.
855
00:40:35,763 --> 00:40:38,643
I've heard people say that from stage.
856
00:40:38,958 --> 00:40:39,228
John: Wow.
857
00:40:39,813 --> 00:40:43,593
Marianne Hickman: It is absolutely
insane to me and that the tragedy
858
00:40:43,593 --> 00:40:45,363
of is that some people fall for it.
859
00:40:46,563 --> 00:40:50,283
Like, no, you're, you're fallible,
you're human just like the rest
860
00:40:50,283 --> 00:40:54,153
of us and the people that, that we
as speakers when we get on stage.
861
00:40:54,363 --> 00:40:55,503
Now, I did talk about.
862
00:40:55,893 --> 00:40:58,413
Speaking from scars instead of wounds.
863
00:40:58,803 --> 00:41:00,513
But here's, here's what to say.
864
00:41:00,513 --> 00:41:04,893
Like we all have open wounds that
we're working on all of the time,
865
00:41:04,893 --> 00:41:08,613
but don't lie to us and tell
us that they're closed scars.
866
00:41:09,243 --> 00:41:12,183
Don't lie to us and say, I've
already healed from this, and know
867
00:41:12,183 --> 00:41:14,193
exactly what to do when you haven't.
868
00:41:14,973 --> 00:41:17,673
If you're going through stuff,
I'm not gonna say that's not okay.
869
00:41:17,673 --> 00:41:18,483
It is okay.
870
00:41:19,293 --> 00:41:19,953
It is okay.
871
00:41:19,953 --> 00:41:20,403
And you know what?
872
00:41:20,403 --> 00:41:23,373
Alex Hermosa talked about this
when he launched with Sam Ovens
873
00:41:23,373 --> 00:41:25,143
when he launched this school thing.
874
00:41:26,013 --> 00:41:29,463
It's taken the, the, the
teaching world by storm.
875
00:41:29,913 --> 00:41:34,173
He said, you know, there's, there's
actually a way to create community.
876
00:41:34,503 --> 00:41:40,323
When you don't know stuff yet,
you can say, Hey, listen, I'm
877
00:41:40,323 --> 00:41:41,673
learning how to homestead.
878
00:41:41,673 --> 00:41:43,083
Who wants to learn with me?
879
00:41:44,013 --> 00:41:47,643
Hey, listen, I want to learn
how to be funnier on stage.
880
00:41:47,943 --> 00:41:49,563
Who wants to learn this with me?
881
00:41:49,563 --> 00:41:50,673
Let's all study together.
882
00:41:50,673 --> 00:41:53,643
Let's bring in everything that
we're all learning together.
883
00:41:53,823 --> 00:41:56,343
I'm not lying and saying, I
already know how to do this.
884
00:41:56,343 --> 00:41:57,273
Come do it with me quickly.
885
00:41:57,273 --> 00:41:59,343
Doing a Google search and
posting a YouTube video, of
886
00:41:59,343 --> 00:42:00,633
which I know nothing about.
887
00:42:00,663 --> 00:42:02,403
That's not how that works, right?
888
00:42:02,583 --> 00:42:03,993
It's like the 18-year-old life coach.
889
00:42:03,993 --> 00:42:06,363
I'm a life coach and I haven't had
enough life to even coach about,
890
00:42:06,993 --> 00:42:10,263
lived with my parents my whole
life, like, no, no, it's not.
891
00:42:10,773 --> 00:42:15,303
It's not a shameful thing to be
a student, but just admit it.
892
00:42:16,023 --> 00:42:21,723
And if you have achieved, you know,
a 10 steps further down the path than
893
00:42:21,723 --> 00:42:25,953
a lot of people, Viktor Frankl said
this, it's our obligation to reach
894
00:42:25,953 --> 00:42:29,133
back and help the next person climb up.
895
00:42:29,133 --> 00:42:32,103
So if you're still learning, just
admit you're still learning, but
896
00:42:32,103 --> 00:42:32,988
be willing to teach what you know.
897
00:42:35,463 --> 00:42:40,653
John: I, I love the lifelong
student aspect philosophy.
898
00:42:41,313 --> 00:42:44,763
Um, I think it's an attitude we
should keep with us all of the time.
899
00:42:45,093 --> 00:42:46,443
And I've seen this in.
900
00:42:46,743 --> 00:42:48,993
Martial arts, I, I studied.
901
00:42:49,113 --> 00:42:49,233
Oh
902
00:42:49,233 --> 00:42:50,103
Marianne Hickman: you read my mind.
903
00:42:50,103 --> 00:42:51,663
We just shared brain
cell there for a second.
904
00:42:52,728 --> 00:42:53,028
John: Cool.
905
00:42:53,478 --> 00:42:58,458
Um, but I studied, uh, ninjitsu, uh,
Japanese martial arts for a long time.
906
00:42:58,848 --> 00:43:02,958
And, uh, something I, I hope to go back
to if I can find a club near enough.
907
00:43:03,258 --> 00:43:05,838
But, uh, I went to Japan to study with the
908
00:43:05,868 --> 00:43:06,618
Marianne Hickman: masters in
909
00:43:06,648 --> 00:43:07,248
John: Tokyo.
910
00:43:07,548 --> 00:43:10,728
Yeah, it was a wonderful
experience and, um.
911
00:43:11,083 --> 00:43:15,463
So I got spend time with the masters
there and the grandmaster of the,
912
00:43:15,553 --> 00:43:19,453
of the Ninjitsu Dore there, who
I think is still alive, like not
913
00:43:19,453 --> 00:43:21,103
teaching anymore, but in his nineties.
914
00:43:21,103 --> 00:43:25,213
But he was still teaching then
and uh, this wasn't that long ago.
915
00:43:26,343 --> 00:43:29,493
And the, the whole philosophy
there, the whole attitude of,
916
00:43:29,673 --> 00:43:31,203
yeah, we are much further.
917
00:43:31,203 --> 00:43:34,233
I just got my black belt when I
was there, which was so exciting.
918
00:43:34,743 --> 00:43:35,433
Marianne Hickman: And
919
00:43:35,583 --> 00:43:38,883
John: And, um, and they, they
were so much further ahead.
920
00:43:38,883 --> 00:43:41,773
Of course, they had gone through all
the different dances they were and,
921
00:43:42,033 --> 00:43:45,663
and we're teaching it and um, and
yet there was so much humility there.
922
00:43:45,663 --> 00:43:46,203
There was so much.
923
00:43:46,623 --> 00:43:48,513
You still have stuff to teach us as well.
924
00:43:48,513 --> 00:43:49,773
We still have stuff to learn.
925
00:43:50,043 --> 00:43:52,623
We just know these things
and we have experience here.
926
00:43:53,018 --> 00:43:55,838
We are still students, we're
still learning and like I
927
00:43:55,838 --> 00:43:57,788
love that kind of humility.
928
00:43:57,788 --> 00:43:59,618
There was no guru ness about it.
929
00:43:59,618 --> 00:44:00,488
Even from the grandma.
930
00:44:00,488 --> 00:44:02,348
There's like a lot of respect.
931
00:44:02,778 --> 00:44:05,808
A lot of respect for him and,
and awareness of his ability
932
00:44:05,808 --> 00:44:07,158
and his teaching over the years.
933
00:44:07,548 --> 00:44:09,828
But no arrogance.
934
00:44:09,858 --> 00:44:11,118
No, look at me.
935
00:44:11,118 --> 00:44:12,768
No, I have all the answers.
936
00:44:13,128 --> 00:44:18,528
It was very, very gentle, very,
um, I was gonna say debut that,
937
00:44:18,828 --> 00:44:23,808
but it was just very, very gentle
and very, um, philosophical and
938
00:44:23,808 --> 00:44:25,398
it was a wonderful experience.
939
00:44:25,398 --> 00:44:26,268
It was an opening experience.
940
00:44:26,298 --> 00:44:29,778
I thought that's how I
want it to be all the time.
941
00:44:30,213 --> 00:44:30,503
Marianne Hickman: Yeah.
942
00:44:31,008 --> 00:44:33,768
Yeah, I heard, and I wish I could
remember the source on this.
943
00:44:33,768 --> 00:44:36,023
I can't remember if I heard it from
stage or if I read it in a book.
944
00:44:37,023 --> 00:44:38,553
The martial arts philosophy.
945
00:44:38,643 --> 00:44:42,003
Uh, man, I wish I knew
the guru, not the guru.
946
00:44:42,003 --> 00:44:42,813
I almost said the wrong word.
947
00:44:43,233 --> 00:44:46,503
The grand who said, when I
die, bury me in a white belt.
948
00:44:47,633 --> 00:44:47,853
John: Ah.
949
00:44:48,303 --> 00:44:50,073
Marianne Hickman: I don't wanna
be buried with my black belt,
950
00:44:50,073 --> 00:44:51,243
with all my black belt rankings.
951
00:44:51,243 --> 00:44:55,533
I want you to bury me in a white belt
to symbolize that I'm still new at this.
952
00:44:56,433 --> 00:44:58,473
Even when I die, I'm still new at this.
953
00:44:58,473 --> 00:45:00,423
There's so much to learn.
954
00:45:00,423 --> 00:45:03,723
And that white belt mentality,
it's, it's humbling, isn't it?
955
00:45:03,723 --> 00:45:04,593
Because a white belt.
956
00:45:04,983 --> 00:45:08,073
When you go into any dojo, a white belt,
for those of you that don't know martial
957
00:45:08,073 --> 00:45:09,543
arts, it means that you're the new kid.
958
00:45:10,233 --> 00:45:13,623
You haven't ranked up at all, you haven't
earned any status, you haven't earned
959
00:45:13,623 --> 00:45:15,363
any medals, haven't beat anyone up yet.
960
00:45:16,053 --> 00:45:19,593
You probably can't defend a sheep, but
you have a white belt, but you're there
961
00:45:19,593 --> 00:45:24,363
and you're learning, and that that
white belt advertises that you're new.
962
00:45:26,283 --> 00:45:26,613
John: Yeah.
963
00:45:27,003 --> 00:45:29,043
Marianne Hickman: And it's another
way of saying I hope to always
964
00:45:29,043 --> 00:45:31,563
be the dumbest kid in the room.
965
00:45:32,958 --> 00:45:36,408
I do because there's so much to learn.
966
00:45:36,408 --> 00:45:40,038
And, and you know what's really cool is
if you're, if you have that same mentality
967
00:45:40,308 --> 00:45:44,418
from time to time and you go into rooms
and you just sit and listen and you don't
968
00:45:44,418 --> 00:45:48,018
have to be the last one to have the last
word, and you don't have to be the speaker
969
00:45:48,018 --> 00:45:52,548
on stage, sometimes the most effective
speakers are silent most of the time.
970
00:45:54,588 --> 00:45:55,248
I just made that up.
971
00:45:55,248 --> 00:45:55,938
That goes on a shirt.
972
00:45:59,178 --> 00:46:00,108
John: You heard it here first.
973
00:46:00,618 --> 00:46:00,908
Marianne Hickman: Yeah.
974
00:46:00,993 --> 00:46:01,203
Right.
975
00:46:03,993 --> 00:46:07,203
John: But, but, but a hun a hundred
percent that there's, the, the, a humility
976
00:46:07,203 --> 00:46:11,703
and a vulnerability to that as well
was, uh, I think people do put on this,
977
00:46:11,793 --> 00:46:13,803
uh, armor of they need to be perfect.
978
00:46:13,803 --> 00:46:14,883
They need to be invulnerable.
979
00:46:14,883 --> 00:46:21,273
They need to, um, be like so
ar this beyond confident that
980
00:46:21,273 --> 00:46:23,853
they're, um, imp unimpeachable.
981
00:46:24,213 --> 00:46:28,413
And, and I do think there is just
a level of which we are very.
982
00:46:29,643 --> 00:46:32,013
Probably need to go over as a
society, but we are very easily
983
00:46:32,013 --> 00:46:34,233
convinced by somebody's confidence.
984
00:46:34,903 --> 00:46:35,923
Marianne Hickman: Oh yes.
985
00:46:36,403 --> 00:46:36,673
Oh
986
00:46:36,723 --> 00:46:40,353
John: says something very confidently,
we are more likely to believe
987
00:46:40,353 --> 00:46:43,803
them than somebody who maybe is
a little questioning about it.
988
00:46:44,553 --> 00:46:44,763
But
989
00:46:45,103 --> 00:46:46,753
Marianne Hickman: Well,
the Dunning Kruger effect.
990
00:46:46,983 --> 00:46:47,343
John: right?
991
00:46:47,653 --> 00:46:48,823
Marianne Hickman: Did we
talk about that before?
992
00:46:48,823 --> 00:46:50,163
John: I thought we did No, I don't
993
00:46:50,298 --> 00:46:52,908
Marianne Hickman: So the Dunning,
you're familiar with this term?
994
00:46:53,058 --> 00:46:53,378
John: I am.
995
00:46:53,838 --> 00:46:54,078
Marianne Hickman: Okay.
996
00:46:54,078 --> 00:46:58,098
So for those of you that aren't, I wasn't,
the Dunning Kruger effect was founded by
997
00:46:58,098 --> 00:47:00,078
two very German scientists, obviously.
998
00:47:00,438 --> 00:47:05,808
And uh, they learned this from
deduce to how do you do an effect?
999
00:47:05,808 --> 00:47:06,828
You make it up, I don't know.
1000
00:47:07,098 --> 00:47:09,978
But they observed a man who
covered himself in lemon juice
1001
00:47:09,978 --> 00:47:11,988
and then went to a bank to rob it.
1002
00:47:12,228 --> 00:47:13,473
John: I had this, yeah.
1003
00:47:13,728 --> 00:47:15,108
Marianne Hickman: And
when they arrested him.
1004
00:47:15,708 --> 00:47:17,748
They were just like,
listen, we caught you.
1005
00:47:18,018 --> 00:47:19,488
I kind of feel bad for you.
1006
00:47:19,878 --> 00:47:23,028
I can only imagine that conversation
like, sweetheart, what's going on?
1007
00:47:23,028 --> 00:47:24,858
Like, how did you think you
were gonna get away with?
1008
00:47:25,158 --> 00:47:30,168
Well, he said that Invisible ink,
if you've watched, uh, any Nicholas
1009
00:47:30,168 --> 00:47:32,178
Cage movie, you know that invisible
ink is made with lemon juice.
1010
00:47:32,178 --> 00:47:35,298
So he thought, Hmm, if invisible mink is
made with lemon juice, then if I cover
1011
00:47:35,538 --> 00:47:36,918
myself in lemon juice, maybe the camera.
1012
00:47:38,538 --> 00:47:41,748
Dunning and Kruger looked at this and
I can only imagine those conversations
1013
00:47:41,748 --> 00:47:45,108
be like, ID, we should, we've
probably seen this more than once.
1014
00:47:45,258 --> 00:47:46,638
Maybe not with lemon juice,
but with other things.
1015
00:47:46,638 --> 00:47:47,508
I bet there's a trend here.
1016
00:47:47,688 --> 00:47:51,648
So they do what the, the brilliant
scientists do when they create this
1017
00:47:51,648 --> 00:47:54,348
map and they observe stupid people
doing stupid things, ask them why
1018
00:47:54,348 --> 00:47:57,738
they did it, and it's because exactly
what you said, they confidence was
1019
00:47:57,978 --> 00:48:03,433
on the Y axis, very high, and their
experience was on the X axis, very low.
1020
00:48:03,943 --> 00:48:05,473
Just enough to get themselves in trouble.
1021
00:48:05,473 --> 00:48:08,623
And at the peak of this Dunning
Kruger effect is when you act
1022
00:48:08,623 --> 00:48:12,883
with peak confidence and so little
experience that they literally
1023
00:48:12,883 --> 00:48:14,233
call it the top of mount stupid.
1024
00:48:16,503 --> 00:48:20,133
This is when we speak so confidently about
something we know nothing about or worse,
1025
00:48:20,133 --> 00:48:23,943
cover ourselves in lemon juice, literally,
or proverbially and do something stupid.
1026
00:48:24,303 --> 00:48:27,003
And what happens is we
get gobsmacked for it.
1027
00:48:27,003 --> 00:48:30,483
Sometimes it, it means people
get embarrassed, or sometimes it
1028
00:48:30,483 --> 00:48:34,008
means they go to jail and then
they go to this valley of despair.
1029
00:48:34,008 --> 00:48:37,383
And the only way to get sustainably
out of it is to educate yourself.
1030
00:48:38,283 --> 00:48:38,573
John: Yeah.
1031
00:48:38,703 --> 00:48:41,013
Marianne Hickman: And that
requires silence and it requires
1032
00:48:41,013 --> 00:48:42,363
listening, and it requires.
1033
00:48:43,098 --> 00:48:46,908
Experimenting, maybe with, you
can have some confidence, but at
1034
00:48:46,908 --> 00:48:50,808
least some measure of humility.
1035
00:48:50,838 --> 00:48:53,118
You can have confidence,
humility in the same pill by the
1036
00:48:53,118 --> 00:48:55,128
way, and then climb back out.
1037
00:48:55,128 --> 00:48:58,188
And you'll find that the people who
have exited and climbed the real
1038
00:48:58,188 --> 00:49:03,048
mountain of knowledge, and even more
so wisdom, which is knowing when
1039
00:49:03,048 --> 00:49:05,088
to execute that knowledge, do so.
1040
00:49:05,733 --> 00:49:11,073
When they allow their, their actions
to only exhibit themselves when
1041
00:49:11,073 --> 00:49:15,033
the confidence and the knowledge
match that is the exit strategy.
1042
00:49:15,303 --> 00:49:15,573
John: Yeah.
1043
00:49:16,053 --> 00:49:16,413
I do.
1044
00:49:16,473 --> 00:49:20,343
I do feel like this is one of the,
uh, influence principles that.
1045
00:49:20,823 --> 00:49:22,713
Cialdini should have covered in his
1046
00:49:22,863 --> 00:49:23,568
Marianne Hickman: book But
1047
00:49:24,468 --> 00:49:29,163
John: but, um, but it, it is that
case of, um, you know, if someone, if
1048
00:49:29,163 --> 00:49:31,773
there's a fire and someone's confident
sat, go this way, go this way.
1049
00:49:32,103 --> 00:49:34,533
And some, and someone who's
actually the fire marshal maybe is
1050
00:49:34,533 --> 00:49:36,363
saying, oh, come, come follow me.
1051
00:49:36,368 --> 00:49:36,608
Follow me.
1052
00:49:37,053 --> 00:49:39,873
You're gonna follow the person who's
confident, go this way, go this way.
1053
00:49:39,873 --> 00:49:42,873
Even if they're leading
you into a, a, a dead end.
1054
00:49:42,933 --> 00:49:43,383
Uh, and
1055
00:49:43,443 --> 00:49:43,833
Marianne Hickman: and you
1056
00:49:44,493 --> 00:49:46,773
John: that, that's, that's
where we, we are kind of wide.
1057
00:49:47,358 --> 00:49:51,498
We can certainly leverage, leverage
that ourselves, but this is one of the
1058
00:49:51,498 --> 00:49:57,528
reasons why so many stories or personal
experience, kind of anecdotal things are
1059
00:49:57,528 --> 00:50:03,318
taken as true or confidently believed
because they're delivered with confidence.
1060
00:50:03,648 --> 00:50:03,978
They're delivered.
1061
00:50:03,978 --> 00:50:05,598
This my experience, right?
1062
00:50:06,108 --> 00:50:07,458
Marianne Hickman: oh, can
I tell you about this?
1063
00:50:07,458 --> 00:50:08,508
This that I did that?
1064
00:50:08,598 --> 00:50:09,228
Oh my gosh.
1065
00:50:09,258 --> 00:50:09,468
Okay.
1066
00:50:09,468 --> 00:50:10,113
So I was very single.
1067
00:50:11,553 --> 00:50:13,863
And I was like, I need to
go out and meet people.
1068
00:50:13,923 --> 00:50:17,073
There was a, I don't know if you, they,
they do this where you live, but here they
1069
00:50:17,073 --> 00:50:19,293
have these kind of murder mystery parties,
1070
00:50:19,638 --> 00:50:19,908
John: Yeah.
1071
00:50:20,283 --> 00:50:21,603
Marianne Hickman: no
actual murder involved.
1072
00:50:21,993 --> 00:50:24,963
But what they do is they invite
all of the guests, you buy a ticket
1073
00:50:24,963 --> 00:50:27,933
and you, they feed you dinner,
and then they have a bunch of
1074
00:50:27,933 --> 00:50:31,053
hired actors that act out a scene.
1075
00:50:31,053 --> 00:50:34,653
And the fun of it is in, in
solving the murder, making
1076
00:50:34,653 --> 00:50:36,153
the accusations and so forth.
1077
00:50:36,663 --> 00:50:39,663
And so I went to this
event again, very single.
1078
00:50:40,263 --> 00:50:40,833
By myself.
1079
00:50:40,833 --> 00:50:44,883
Dinner for one, I had a table of
eight and I, I was very late to
1080
00:50:44,883 --> 00:50:48,183
the event, probably 20 minutes late
and I was like, oh, I don't even
1081
00:50:48,183 --> 00:50:49,173
know if they're gonna let me in.
1082
00:50:49,233 --> 00:50:49,803
They did.
1083
00:50:50,043 --> 00:50:56,163
And so I arrived to my table late and
that is, that was my first tool and in
1084
00:50:56,163 --> 00:50:58,593
the back of my head I was like, oh, okay.
1085
00:50:58,593 --> 00:50:59,793
I have an advantage here.
1086
00:50:59,853 --> 00:51:03,963
I wonder, I don't even know if this
thought formulated completely before I
1087
00:51:03,963 --> 00:51:08,853
started doing it, but I said, I wonder
if I can be the red herring tonight.
1088
00:51:10,143 --> 00:51:12,273
I wonder if I can convince.
1089
00:51:12,903 --> 00:51:14,163
Nobody knows me here.
1090
00:51:14,433 --> 00:51:15,543
Nobody knows me.
1091
00:51:15,723 --> 00:51:16,983
They don't know me as a speaker.
1092
00:51:17,223 --> 00:51:20,073
They don't know me as I've
never been to this crowd before.
1093
00:51:20,643 --> 00:51:26,313
I wonder if I can convince them to
accuse me in this mock murder scene
1094
00:51:27,483 --> 00:51:29,898
and, uh, pretend like I'm involved.
1095
00:51:29,918 --> 00:51:33,253
And I had to play my cards
exceptionally carefully, and I.
1096
00:51:33,888 --> 00:51:35,028
John, I did it.
1097
00:51:35,088 --> 00:51:38,118
I got my entire, I don't know how
I did, but I got my entire table
1098
00:51:38,118 --> 00:51:39,498
to duck under the tablecloth.
1099
00:51:39,918 --> 00:51:42,648
I got my entire table to
trade glasses with each other.
1100
00:51:42,828 --> 00:51:45,528
I got my entire table to put the
napkin on the lap of the person
1101
00:51:45,528 --> 00:51:49,248
next to them, just because I went
with confidence and it worked.
1102
00:51:49,248 --> 00:51:52,788
I got the entire, I was
number one suspect that night.
1103
00:51:53,538 --> 00:51:56,478
I didn't get a date out of it, but
I was the number one suspect that
1104
00:51:56,478 --> 00:52:00,138
night even so much that the manager
of the conference asked if I had been
1105
00:52:00,138 --> 00:52:02,928
brought in by another drama group.
1106
00:52:03,453 --> 00:52:05,613
When I told him I hadn't,
he offered me a job.
1107
00:52:06,903 --> 00:52:11,523
I said no, but it was the most fun
I've had on a date by myself ever.
1108
00:52:12,828 --> 00:52:16,398
John: But a great illustration of the
power of just being confident in a
1109
00:52:16,443 --> 00:52:16,593
Marianne Hickman: Yeah.
1110
00:52:17,628 --> 00:52:21,768
John: It makes, it makes all the
difference, you know, is that regardless
1111
00:52:21,768 --> 00:52:25,218
of, I think sometimes regardless of how
someone is dressed or how they look or
1112
00:52:25,608 --> 00:52:31,938
what their body shape is or anything,
that confidence out surpasses all of that.
1113
00:52:32,478 --> 00:52:35,958
If you con, if you have confidence,
that's what people notice.
1114
00:52:36,858 --> 00:52:37,638
Marianne Hickman: Absolutely.
1115
00:52:37,968 --> 00:52:41,028
can get a long way with it Yeah Agree
1116
00:52:41,298 --> 00:52:42,378
John: For better or for worse.
1117
00:52:42,408 --> 00:52:42,768
Exactly.
1118
00:52:42,768 --> 00:52:45,678
Like any tool of influence, it can
be, it be used for good or bad.
1119
00:52:46,608 --> 00:52:49,908
This is, this has honestly been such a, a
fun conversation that I, I, I don't want
1120
00:52:49,908 --> 00:52:54,948
it to end, but it has to unfortunately
because we have, we, we both, we both have
1121
00:52:54,948 --> 00:52:58,668
other things we need to do today, but,
um, it is been, it has been a real joy.
1122
00:52:59,358 --> 00:53:04,398
I do wonder for, for you, um,
what if someone wants to find out
1123
00:53:04,398 --> 00:53:05,083
more about you, because I think.
1124
00:53:05,898 --> 00:53:06,738
Undoubtedly the will.
1125
00:53:06,768 --> 00:53:09,558
You've been so engaging and
and entertaining on the show.
1126
00:53:09,768 --> 00:53:11,898
Someone wants to connect with you
and maybe even learn from you.
1127
00:53:11,898 --> 00:53:13,343
What's the best way for them to do that?
1128
00:53:13,998 --> 00:53:16,608
Marianne Hickman: So I, I, I'm all
over social media, so if you just look
1129
00:53:16,608 --> 00:53:17,688
up my name, you can find it there.
1130
00:53:17,688 --> 00:53:19,878
But I really like to just
connect with people personally.
1131
00:53:19,878 --> 00:53:23,838
I give out my phone number, so
like I, I just want you to text me.
1132
00:53:23,838 --> 00:53:25,308
I want you to say, you
heard me on John's show.
1133
00:53:26,178 --> 00:53:29,448
That way I can tell John that he's
having some reach, which is really cool.
1134
00:53:29,808 --> 00:53:30,528
So just text me.
1135
00:53:30,528 --> 00:53:36,588
My number is 8 0 1, I'm in
America, so +1-801-509-FIVE 4 9 5.
1136
00:53:36,588 --> 00:53:37,308
Just text me.
1137
00:53:37,308 --> 00:53:39,288
Say, Hey, let's develop a relationship.
1138
00:53:39,288 --> 00:53:42,528
Let's go out for a virtual coffee, you
know, and you can go to my website and
1139
00:53:42,528 --> 00:53:44,178
download all the stuff that I have there.
1140
00:53:44,178 --> 00:53:46,878
That's all well and good, but if you
wanna just hang out and get to know
1141
00:53:46,878 --> 00:53:49,818
each other, just text me and then
let's, let's learn from each other.
1142
00:53:49,818 --> 00:53:51,888
I wanna learn from you and let's hang out.
1143
00:53:52,623 --> 00:53:53,523
John: I, I love that.
1144
00:53:53,523 --> 00:53:56,583
And that is an incredible, I don't
think anyone has ever given out
1145
00:53:56,583 --> 00:54:00,813
their phone number on my show in,
five or so years of doing this.
1146
00:54:00,813 --> 00:54:01,923
So that, that's amazing.
1147
00:54:01,923 --> 00:54:04,803
And I think that's a great way
to really personalize stuff
1148
00:54:04,803 --> 00:54:05,518
and get people to connect.
1149
00:54:05,518 --> 00:54:06,693
So gi, give Marianne a call.
1150
00:54:07,083 --> 00:54:08,373
Uh, you won't, you won't regret it.
1151
00:54:08,373 --> 00:54:10,773
You'll have a, a very least
a fun conversation, I'm
1152
00:54:10,983 --> 00:54:12,933
Marianne Hickman: And if I mute myself,
it's probably 'cause I'm on the toilet.
1153
00:54:12,933 --> 00:54:13,263
So.
1154
00:54:14,743 --> 00:54:16,848
John: To just watch out for
those time differences, right?
1155
00:54:16,848 --> 00:54:19,608
You don't want, uh, 3:00
AM uh, 3:00 AM calls,
1156
00:54:19,668 --> 00:54:21,648
Marianne Hickman: reserve the
right to ignore a 3:00 AM call
1157
00:54:21,648 --> 00:54:22,488
and get back to you later.
1158
00:54:22,488 --> 00:54:23,298
I'll, say that
1159
00:54:23,298 --> 00:54:27,318
John: much Mar Mario, it has been a
real delight to have you on the show.
1160
00:54:27,318 --> 00:54:29,748
Thank you so much for coming and
being my guest and sharing such a
1161
00:54:29,748 --> 00:54:33,048
wonderful conversation and so many
insights and experiences with us today.
1162
00:54:33,438 --> 00:54:34,578
Marianne Hickman: It's
been my pleasure, John.
1163
00:54:34,578 --> 00:54:35,193
Thank you so much.
1164
00:54:35,628 --> 00:54:36,348
John: Thank you.
1165
00:54:36,902 --> 00:54:41,402
So if you apply just one idea from this
episode, connect first and then perform.
1166
00:54:41,642 --> 00:54:45,662
You've heard it before if you've been
tuning into the show, so your next talk
1167
00:54:45,662 --> 00:54:47,432
gets instantly better when you do this.
1168
00:54:47,532 --> 00:54:50,262
Ignore it, and you are sliding
towards status theater.
1169
00:54:50,352 --> 00:54:53,862
Louder, shinier, emptier
and less bookable.
1170
00:54:54,282 --> 00:54:58,122
You heard how scars are greater
than wounds and how humor speeds
1171
00:54:58,122 --> 00:55:02,442
learning, and why white belt mindset
keeps you sharp and credible.
1172
00:55:03,072 --> 00:55:05,712
Do subscribe to present influence
and drop a quick review.
1173
00:55:05,862 --> 00:55:08,232
It helps me to see if there's
no ick direction is hitting
1174
00:55:08,232 --> 00:55:11,712
home and if you want coaching on
building ethical authority that.
1175
00:55:11,889 --> 00:55:15,249
And talks that actually land
reach out, links out in the
1176
00:55:15,249 --> 00:55:16,629
description and the show notes.
1177
00:55:16,629 --> 00:55:18,489
In the meantime, have an amazing week.
1178
00:55:18,489 --> 00:55:20,049
See you next time.
