Authenticity and Connection: Transforming Public Speaking with Marianne Hickman

SUMMARY

In this episode of Present Influence, host John welcomes Marianne Hickman to discuss the importance of authenticity, connection, and ethical speaking in public presentations. They explore issues such as trauma dumping, the power of telling stories from scars, and why confidence without competence can be detrimental. Marianne emphasises the sacredness of the microphone and shares insights on the 'Utah bro' archetype and the Dunning-Kruger effect. The conversation also delves into how humour, open mics, and even onstage mishaps can enhance teaching and engagement. They advocate for continuous learning and maintaining a 'white belt' mentality as they navigate public speaking and personal growth.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Cutting Through Stage Fakery: Real Influence You Can Trust

00:55 Welcome to Present Influence: Live with Marianne Hickman

02:13 The Sacredness of the Microphone: Stories from Scars, Not Wounds

04:46 The Utah Bro Archetype and the Dangers of Manipulation

10:20 The Power of Humour and Authenticity in Public Speaking

11:45 Embracing Comedy: Lessons from Mr Rogers and Robin Williams

20:39 The Yes, And Principle: Turning Mishaps into Moments

28:32 Taking the Pressure Off: Embracing Imperfection

29:55 Facing High-Stakes Situations with Confidence

32:48 Finding Your People: The Importance of Authenticity

38:26 The Role of Confidence in Influence

41:46 The Lifelong Student: Embracing Humility

49:14 The Power of Confidence: A Personal Story

52:16 Final Thoughts and How to Connect

Visit presentinfluence.com/quiz to take the Speaker Radiance Quiz and discover your Charisma Quotient.

For speaking enquiries or to connect with me, you can email john@presentinfluence.com or find me on LinkedIn

You can find all our clips, episodes and more on the Present Influence YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@PresentInfluence

Thanks for listening, and please give the show a 5* review if you enjoyed it.

Today we're gonna be cutting through stage fakery and getting real

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about influence You can trust Now

my guest today shares that too many

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gurus turn a microphone into a mirror.

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Trauma, dumping status theater,

and confidence without competence.

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Audiences are savvier than that.

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and people are tired of being

played and emotionally manipulated.

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So my guest, Marianne Hickman

calls the mic a sacred place and

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shows why you must tell stories

from scars, not from open wounds.

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We dig into the Utah bro archetype, which

I wasn't familiar with before, and the

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Dunning Kruger cliff and how humor, and

yes, open mics, even onstage, mishaps can

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help you teach better and be remembered.

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So if you want to stand out without

selling out, this one's your field guide,

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ethical authority, real charisma and

practical ways to keep audiences with you.

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When the sides die, the plans

change or the ego wants the wheel.

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So let's get into it.

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Welcome to Present

Influence, Marian Hickman.

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I have been so excited to talk

to you and, uh, delighted to have

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you here live with me on the show.

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We're going live on Instagram

as well, which is very exciting.

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Good to have you here today.

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Marianne Hickman: I'm

so honored to be here.

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When we chatted before, I was just

like, this guy has his stuff together.

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I'm all about your podcast too.

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The, the content of your podcast

is, it's so valuable for speakers

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because I think a lot of us in the

world of speaking, especially new and

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emerging speakers, there's a lot of.

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Things that feel elusive.

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How do we get booked on stages?

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How do we make money from this?

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And there's not a lot of people who are

just willing to give the answers to this.

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There's a lot of paywalls

and stuff and so forth.

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So I'm excited for what you're doing

because it's just making it accessible to

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people whose messages you can get behind.

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John: I, I really appreciate that.

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I, I also, my, my part of my goal,

my hope as well is that we're also

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equipping people with some of the

skills and ability to grow and develop

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in how they deliver that as well and

what they do on stage, um, making it.

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Making the magic happen even

more successfully, which is,

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uh, a wonderful thing to see.

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And I do hear from people

sometimes that that is what they

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get from the show and enjoy that.

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So I really appreciate that feedback.

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Marianne Hickman: Let me

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John: ask let me ask you what, uh, this

is maybe a, a tough question to kick

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off, but I think you can handle it.

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It what's, what's maybe a, a position

or an opinion you have about speaking

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or presenting that maybe it's a bit

contrarian or, or different to what

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most other people tend to put out there.

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Marianne Hickman: Well, so I don't

know if it's necessarily contrarian,

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but it's something that people

don't talk about enough, I think.

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It's, uh, I was just

writing my book yesterday.

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I, I'm like dictating my book

in my car while I drive 'cause I

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have no other time to write it.

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John: That's a great way to do it.

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Marianne Hickman: it's, well, I hope so.

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Uh, so this, this came up yesterday.

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Same question Chatt asked me,

and this is it When we speak.

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The microphone is a sacred place.

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This microphone is a sacred place.

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My Instagram is a sacred place.

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The reason it's sacred is because we are

receiving time from other people, which

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is the world's most valuable resource.

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They don't get it back.

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It's non-renewable.

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Right?

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If we are going to use that time and

tell stories that aren't healed yet,

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then that causes a huge problem.

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I'm a big advocate of telling stories

from scars, not from open wounds.

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There's, there's a huge danger in

the public speaking world right now,

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and that danger is in trying to teach

when it's really just trauma dumping.

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At best when it's trauma dumping

at best, that doesn't help anybody.

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That should be done with a

therapist, not with an audience.

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And at worst it's manipulation and that's

the danger when most, when people who

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do manipulate use the tools that we talk

about, they use the art of persuasion.

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They use the art of psychology.

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We understand body language, we

understand all this movement, and

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people who would manipulate, and

people that would just plain old scam

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people, they know these tools as well.

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They use these tools and

people, it's not a win-win.

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It's a win lose or a lose lose

oftentimes if you wait long enough.

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And that's the big danger is,

is, I hate the word authenticity

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because it's so overused, but I

can't think of a better word for it.

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know, it's when you have genuine

authenticity and a drive to help

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people, that is exceedingly rare,

and it takes a lot of exposure as an

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audience member to detect when that's

happening and when it's not happening.

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John: I, I agree.

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I agree a hundred percent.

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And I, I certainly have some,

some thoughts on that myself,

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which I would love to share about.

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First of all, I'd like to ask you.

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What would be an example of that

that maybe you've seen now you, you

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don't have to name any names, but

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Marianne Hickman: Oh, I won't,

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John: but give us an example of where you

maybe have seen that somewhere recently.

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Marianne Hickman: Right know,

it, it's, it's rampant now.

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I don't wanna give Utah a bad name,

but there are, it, it, it is a.

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A fertile soil for what you and

I have come to know and everybody

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has come to know is the influencer.

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Right?

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It, there's a lot of YouTubers

that come out of Utah.

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It's just, I don't know why and

it, it's not necessarily because of

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the geography that just happens to

be where we are, but there's this

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thing that's called the Utah bro.

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Okay know it when you see it.

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And if you're, if you're, if there's

anyone that's watching live, I know

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you know what I'm talking about.

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If you live in Utah, right, it's the Utah

bro that, uh, will put on the persona.

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They usually have like a

mustache and no beard because

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BYU is really weird like that.

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They wear tight gym shorts,

overly baggy shirts.

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They're huge and they're

all about sales and.

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It's really sad because there can

be a lot of good done by people

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who fit that demographic, but

unfortunately, that demographic can

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be easily stereotyped into people who

will self, like, what is the word?

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Aggrandize?

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Anize.

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they'll

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John: they'll make

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Marianne Hickman: that's the one,

that's the one self aggrandize.

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And they're, you can tell, you

can tell when they get on stage,

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and they're all about themselves.

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They're all about being the

loudest one in the room.

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They're all about being the,

look at me, look at me, look

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at me instead of look at you.

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Look at you.

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Look at you.

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And that's, that's an easy way if

you're calibrating and you're in

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the audience saying, oh, who am

I sitting in front of right now?

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I believe there's something to learn no

matter who you're sitting in front of.

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I will say that.

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Uh, and I also have to admit that I have

been on the wrong side of this before.

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It, it, I, I took training and I

watch that and I thought that's what,

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how it was supposed to be until one

day I was walking through an event.

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And this is an event where I was speaking,

I was MCing and this event, uh, they hired

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a security team and for the speakers.

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Now, was that necessary?

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I don't know, but it made me feel really

cool and it made me feel really special.

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And, uh, I was walking

through the lobby with a sec.

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This was insane, John.

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I felt like I was like the

president or something.

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There was a security guy in front of

me, one on each side, and the security

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guy behind me as if there was some

like threat, which there wasn't.

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What that did was boosted my ego and

also separated me from my audience.

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It separated me from the person

that paid money to come get help.

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It separated me from the people who

spent their last dime and their last time

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maybe even got fired from their jobs.

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That's happened to come to an

event where I was speaking.

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It, it, it just left

me with a sick feeling.

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And, uh, I was just recently reading, you

know, how we all just binge on Instagram.

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I was recently reading about Keanu

Reeves and how he is the type of

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person, I hope I can meet him one day.

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He's the type of who mm-hmm.

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He doesn't bring a media team with him.

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He's out there eating with

the homeless on the street.

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He takes a subway to work.

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He donates many of his funds.

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Robin Williams was the same

way on every show he was on.

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He required that at least a certain

percentage of the people who worked on

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the show be hired homeless people, so

they would have a job local in their area.

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It we, we can all detect this.

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It's part of the gut feeling that we have.

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Trust your gut.

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This is one of my primary

lessons I teach my kids.

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If your gut's saying ask questions.

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Look into is this person on the

same sa on the stage, the same

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person they are on stage and the

same person they are at home.

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And that's hard to tell sometimes.

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But if your your scamo meter is going off,

just pay attention to it and be discerning

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for yourself without judgment if you can.

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But be discerning for yourself

that I don't know if that answers

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your questions That's my soapbox

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John: on I think I.

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to

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Marianne Hickman: my Ted talk.

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John: I love your answer.

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Uh, and I, I agree and one of the things

that was very important to me with this

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show when I created it was wanting it to

also be a platform for helping people to

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develop their critical thinking skills and

to have healthier skepticism about things.

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And, uh, I seen some

videos last week about.

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Always asking questions and

like, why it's been so important

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to me to always ask questions.

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And that's, that attitude has taken

me on a, on quite some journeys

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in my life, but people don't seem

to get too excited about seeing,

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seeing, oh, critical thinking skills.

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Oh yeah, that looks like fun.

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You know?

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So it, so it's something that,

something that I like to inject

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into the show at various times.

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But, uh, uh, a lot of time, I don't

think it's one of the things that would

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draw, necessarily, draw people in or a

very, very, very niche audience for that.

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But, um, I loved what you're saying

about the, um, the, the scars and

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the, uh, open wounds because I've

seen that very much on stage.

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I've been working in an organization

where someone was on stage, like leading

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the organization, being the head speaker

for that, and unraveling emotionally on

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stage in front of 3000 or more people.

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Uh, absolute catastrophe,

as you can imagine.

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Marianne Hickman: there done that?

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John: Right.

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So it is, it is not nice to watch.

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It's not nice to be a part of,

it can't be nice to experience.

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It must be terrifying, um, when you

know that you're losing your audience.

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And, uh, when, as far as credibility

goes, if, if there's even a whiff

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that you are on a downward streak

or on heading down somewhere, you've

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already lost your audience that

your credibility is, is shot at that

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Marianne Hickman: point

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John: So, so I think this is a,

a super important thing, but, um.

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I do, I've been talking a lot

recently about the whole thing

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of performing or connecting about

the episode I'm putting out.

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Uh, tomorrow is, is mostly about that

and I had this experience last week doing

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open mic of, um, getting up on stage.

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Just taking the first few moments

to connect with the audience.

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And I think that made the biggest

difference for me over pretty much

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anyone else who went up on that stage

that night of just taking that moment.

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And I do see, especially with, with

things like open mic, people just go

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out there, they wanna perform, but

they don't take the time to connect.

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But when you do.

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The audience is with you.

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They're on, they're on your side.

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They're, uh, they're along with you.

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And that means it is about them.

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It's about relationship, it's

about connection and, uh, gosh.

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Yeah.

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So I can go on my doing my

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Marianne Hickman: little I totally with

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John: you

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Marianne Hickman: Yeah

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John: because I know, I know you, we've

talked about a little bit already when we

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had a, a chat a while back about comedy

and stand up and open mics and stuff.

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And I know this is something

that you do as well.

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And, uh, and I feel that.

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I feel, and I think you agreed with this

as well, that, um, it's something that I

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always think should be essential as part

of speaking and presentation training

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to get up on stage and do some comedy

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Marianne Hickman: Absolutely.

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John: stand up.

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Marianne Hickman: Oh,

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John: I'd love to know from you,

why do you think that's essential?

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Marianne Hickman: Well, so Mr.

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Rogers taught me this, and I didn't know

he was teaching me this because I was six.

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But, uh, I, I used to watch, I

remember I was five years old because

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I had a schedule as a 5-year-old.

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This is how OCDI am.

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I had a schedule as a 5-year-old.

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I remember it to this day.

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Now, this was 35 years ago, so I'm

not ashamed to admit that I'm 40.

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Toss.

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Toss, right?

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Okay.

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So at 10 o'clock every Monday

through Friday, Sesame Street was

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on, and that was on for half an hour.

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And then at 10 30, I watched Mr.

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Rogers, and then I had lunch,

and then I went to school.

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But 10 30.

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Was was my time.

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And I've done a little bit of research

on, on Fred Rogers and what he did

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for children's television and the fact

that he stood up in front of Senate,

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the fact that he was in the military.

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He's a fascinating guy.

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If there was anyone that I could

ever interview on my podcast,

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it'd be him in Robin Williams.

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It'd be a hoot.

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But I remember watching, uh, Fred

Rogers and he had this routine

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and he, if you remember Mr.

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Rogers neighborhood, he would.

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Come home and he'd take off his suit and

he'd put on his sweater and he'd play

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with the puppets, and he would just teach.

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We didn't know that he

was teaching compassion.

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We didn't know that he

was teaching leadership.

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We didn't know that he was

teaching critical thinking.

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We didn't know that he was

teaching problem solving skills.

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We just knew that we were having fun.

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We knew that we were watching that

little trolley come through and tu

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and, and just take over the experience.

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And Fred Rogers understood something.

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He said, we learn better.

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When we're having fun, we just do.

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We learn better when we're having fun.

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And he said specifically that children

learn better when we're having fun.

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And I don't know about you, but I

have never stopped being a child.

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Just ask my husband.

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There's parts of me that are

childish versus childlike.

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I understand there's a difference.

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I have both.

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But this, this concept of standup

comedy, know, I was talking to my friend,

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uh, Sarah, who owns another podcast.

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The way I used to teach public speaking

exclusively had an what I call the EKG of

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energy, where we start at the peak state

and we go down and tell the dark parts

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of our story and then we climb out of it.

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There's validity to that as well,

but sad isn't the only emotion.

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Traumatic isn't the only emotion.

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Those can be leverageable parts of

a story, and if we're gonna look to

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one of the greatest actors of all

times, we have to look no further

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than once again, Raven Williams.

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Every movie that he made that I have

watched anyway has had been a yin

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and yang of both tragedy and comedy.

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If you take a look at Mrs.

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Doubtfire, it's hilarious, but it

also deals with real family issues

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like blended families and divorce.

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If you take a look at what dreams

may come, this one has to do with

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suicide, as does dead poet society.

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So he also understood the the

duality of comedy and learning.

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Sometimes, uh, this is not even

a, sometimes this is all the time

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you and I are in life school.

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None of us have ever done this day before.

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Sometimes when we pray for things, we

receive the most beautiful blessings

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with the most hideous wrapping paper.

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And if we can get through the hideous

wrapping paper, there is a blessing to

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be found in there, but it's crazy how.

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Some people stop at the wrapping

paper and say, Ew, this is gross.

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I don't want this.

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I did that when I had my divorce.

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I did that when I lost my job and said,

Ew, this is hideous wrapping paper.

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But if we just are willing to rip

it off and go through the work,

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and sometimes there's paper cuts

involved of finding the gift inside.

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You know what comedy does is it

speeds up the process, laughing

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about it speeds up the process.

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I literally, I, I am, I'm ashamed

to admit this, but it is the truth.

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When I first started looking at.

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Comedy and public speaking.

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I didn't know how to do it.

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I was like, I think I used to be funny.

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I dunno if they were laughing at me.

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I don't, it doesn't matter,

but I wanna be funny again.

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So I, John, I literally Googled it.

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I said How to be funny again.

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And I bought the first book that I

found and it says, do you talk funny?

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And I was like, sold.

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I'm buying it.

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I'm so glad I did because

this breaks down the science.

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Here I am nerding out again, the

science of comedy and what makes people

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laugh because when we laugh, we retain

more, we retain more information,

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we retain better information.

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It makes that wrapping paper not so ugly

and it shortens the duration of suffering.

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It just does.

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I, I saw a lady who on Instagram.

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She, her Instagram was all

about her husband's fight with

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cancer, and it was terrible.

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It was tragic.

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And ultimately, I, I don't know if the,

the right language is that he lost the

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fight, but he did pass away and she

came back on social media months, months

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later, maybe even a year later, and she

came back with this reel that people who

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have dealt with loss will understand.

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I might have a macab sense of humor.

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We'll see.

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But she came back with this reel and.

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In this reel, she put up a camera.

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You can see the inside of her house.

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She's walking through the front drawer,

dressed all in black, holding an urn.

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And she said That moment when you come

back to social media after your husband

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passes away, and she's like, Hey, hi.

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We're back.

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And she in the, in the

caption, she nailed it.

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She said, you might not get my sense of

humor, but this is how I cope with this.

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John: Right.

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Marianne Hickman: This is how I'm

dealing with this and the comments.

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You know, my favorite comedy

section in all the world is the

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comment section on Instagram.

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That's why I go to

Instagram, the internet.

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You guys are killing it.

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You guys are so funny.

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And they were lighting it up

and we were laughing together,

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we were crying together.

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We're tipping drinks together.

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Who knows?

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But this is, this is the,

the joy that is in life now.

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There's a lot of inappropriate humor,

and I know that we have varying

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degrees of acceptance for that.

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I believe God when he said men

are that they might have joy.

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I believe God when he says he has

a sense of humor, and by golly,

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my days are just better when I'm

looking for reasons to laugh.

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John: Yeah, I, I think that's

a, a lovely attitude to have.

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I think, uh, my experience has been,

um, I think comedy humor is a great way

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of reframing and so much of coaching

and development and transformation.

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It's about reframing ourselves

on things and if we can.

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At least reframe ourselves to take

life a bit less seriously sometimes

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and to to have a bit more fun

with things or be more playful.

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I think we can make our life experience

a lot more enjoyable, bearable because

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goodness knows there's a lot of

unpleasantness going on in the world

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right now and, and if we can have people

laugh and bring some joy into people's

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lives and at the same time do that for

ourselves as well, I think that in alone.

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Has great value, but if you can add

into that, that they're learning

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something, they're transforming or

changing something about themselves,

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the the value is, uh, priceless

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Marianne Hickman: in

those situations Yeah.

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It's, think about the, the

reels that you share the most.

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They're the ones that make you laugh.

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They're the ones that are funny and I

don't know about you, but dude, I have

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all this pressure now to be funny.

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I don't know if I'm doing it right.

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I'm like, I talk about

comedy, comedy a lot.

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I don't, I don't know.

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Am I even funny?

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Do I even have, am I an authority on this?

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I don't know.

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But, uh, I'm, I'm a student of it.

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I'm learning and, uh, I just hope

by the end of the day or the end

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of the time that people have, their

attention spans much shorter than a

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day that they've smiled a little more.

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That's my goal.

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If we've done that, then we've won.

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John: Yeah, I think you

probably are funnier.

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I think we're all funny.

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Uh, and we know if we're not.

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I think generally we know if we're not,

uh, we just don't have much of a sense of

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humor about stuff and we don't generally

find things that most people find funny.

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I think there are definitely people who.

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Kind of flat line when it comes to a sense

of humor and don't really go into, but

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I do think they're few and far between.

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So I think if you can find humor

and if you can laugh at stuff

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and you make your friends laugh,

sometimes you could be funny.

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And I think that's something that I've

picked up from talking to a lot of

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professional people, uh, comedians,

people who teach comedy as well.

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I think it's such an important

skill to have on the stage.

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Uh, and one of the things that, that

kind of leads us into is talking about

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this whole, uh, when you are delivering

something, a keynote, a training, or

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whatever it is, if you don't have some

level of entertainment factor within that.

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It's gonna be hard going for

you and for everyone who's

418

Marianne Hickman: having for

419

John: everybody listening to

you, for everyone involved.

420

And so the entertainment factor is

really important and I'd love to

421

get your take on, uh, what that can

or should look like and how we can

422

perhaps be a little more entertaining

423

Marianne Hickman: when we're on

424

John: a platform.

425

Marianne Hickman: Okay, so this

is, this is really fun because I, I

426

first started inadvertently studying

this when I was, uh, gosh, I was

427

probably 10 or eight years old.

428

And my, in my church, we

used to do sketches, skits.

429

They called them road shows back in

the day, but oh my gosh, that was,

430

it was like a theater portion of the

church, and they would take some.

431

Theme and then we'd have to

create a sketch about it.

432

And I will never forget this, this, uh, it

was a, in our church, we call them wards.

433

It's basically a geographical

boundary where everyone that's a

434

member in that geographical boundary

would go to church together.

435

So it was a different ward

and they had this sketch about

436

these time traveling outhouse.

437

It's already funny, right?

438

Chime traveling outhouse and they

all climbed in this outhouse,

439

like clowns in a clown car.

440

And they went somewhere and I'll never,

I don't remember where they went or what

441

they were doing there, but I remember

on the stage they, uh, transported

442

the outhouse to a new environment.

443

So the lights went down, lots of

stage hands moving things around.

444

The lights go back up.

445

The outhouse is there, but there's

a new scene on the stage and I think

446

they're in the middle of some alien

territory, maybe on Mars or something.

447

The, the dudes climb outta the outhouse.

448

And you have to imagine some guy in

like a, a, a, I only can imagine it as a

449

lumberjack hat and some big suspenders.

450

Lots of flannel, hillbillies.

451

Climb outta this outhouse,

probably 18 of them.

452

And as they climb outta the house,

they start with the dialogue.

453

And in the back of the scenery, the

outhouse collapses, totally falls over.

454

And the, the.

455

Lead character with the one with

the lumberjack hat illustrated,

456

the principle I'm about to share

with you seamlessly, so perfectly.

457

And the principle is that of yes, and

458

John: Right.

459

Marianne Hickman: this

is the yes and principle.

460

He looked over at the

collapsing outhouse, Kaboom.

461

The silence was so beautifully awkward.

462

He milked it for all that it was

worth because the audience, the

463

audience doesn't know at this point

if that was intentional or not.

464

John: Right.

465

Marianne Hickman: We have no clue.

466

Instead of breaking character, he's

like, well, guess we're not going home.

467

The audience laughs.

468

And we, we learned later on that

that was a complete accident.

469

It was a freak accident.

470

We didn't, that wasn't supposed to happen.

471

And he built it into the storyline

successfully implementing this

472

principle of Yes, and, and this

is where it gets so fun in standup

473

and in banter and an improv comedy.

474

When someone introduces a scene,

and you can watch this if you

475

watch whose line is it anyway?

476

One of my favorite shows when

someone introduces a scene going

477

with it introduces that level

of comedy because there can be a

478

lot of humor in the unexpected.

479

So if I'm on stage and my

slides fail, how do I Yes.

480

And

481

John: Yeah.

482

Marianne Hickman: how do I

say yes and I'm not trying to

483

lie or you know, say that, uh.

484

I, I meant for them to dive.

485

But if I go with it, then it can either be

successful or funny and successful, which

486

I'm gonna bring in the funny if I can't.

487

So there, there was a point back in,

488

teaching a, uh, a group of people.

489

I used to do a morning power

hour, which basically, man,

490

I was on stage for an hour.

491

We do this really chill meditation

and then we shift into body movement.

492

And what I liked to do.

493

Get the audience to do

a hundred jumping jacks.

494

I later learned that that was a bad

idea because there was one man in

495

the audience who suffered a seizure.

496

He was fine, but I didn't do that again.

497

Uh, anyway, so we were doing

a hundred jumping jacks.

498

Now one thing, ladies, if

you're listening, don't do this.

499

I have had five children.

500

Okay?

501

Um, and any woman that has born

children knows that you're not

502

built like you were before.

503

Once the after happens, I had

five children at the time.

504

Delivered five children.

505

You know where I'm going with this

all over the stage anyway, so I had

506

two liters of tea right before I did.

507

Yeah.

508

See, you know where I'm going with

509

John: Yeah.

510

Marianne Hickman: Yeah liters of

tea doing a hundred jumping jacks.

511

I'm getting into jumping jack 1920

and I'm starting to feel the pressure.

512

So I stopped the jumping jacks just

to walk around the room motivate,

513

but then the guilt hits me.

514

I'm like, oh, if I'm making my

audience do the jumping jacks,

515

I have to do them with them.

516

So about jumping jack 40 and 50 and

back into it again, and the pressure

517

is no longer building, it is releasing,

518

John: Oof.

519

Marianne Hickman: and I'm just

praying that my gene are dark enough

520

John: to

521

Marianne Hickman: hide the flood.

522

It was like Noah and I, we get

each other now like this flood.

523

Was unstoppable.

524

It was complete.

525

I'm pretty sure it still

smelled like chamomile.

526

I, I was, oh my gosh, I was mortified,

but I had 20 minutes left on stage.

527

What am I gonna do?

528

Am I gonna say into the microphone?

529

Sorry guys.

530

I just peed my pants.

531

I gotta go.

532

I just stuck with it.

533

I kept a distance from the audience 'cause

I was really afraid about the smell.

534

I was nervous that they would smell it

and I would steal my credibility, but

535

the, that's not even the funniest part.

536

The funniest part is when I got

off stage, I called my husband and

537

I was like, don't ask questions.

538

Just bring a change of clothes.

539

I was so mortified, I

didn't wanna tell anyone.

540

So what's the first thing I do?

541

Grab my friend Heather, and

I said, Heather, you're not

542

gonna believe what happened.

543

You can't tell anyone, but I

just peed my pants on stage.

544

Then I go to my next friend,

Stacey, you're not gonna

545

believe what just happened.

546

You can't tell anyone.

547

But I just peed my pants on stage

and then I grabbed my friend, Travis.

548

Travis, you're not gonna

believe what just happened.

549

Don't tell anyone.

550

But I just peed my pants on

stage and by then I've told like

551

30 people, don't tell anyone.

552

And so now this, this story that I was

so mortified by has now become one of

553

my funniest moments because what could

have been really, really embarrassing?

554

Lost all of its embarrassing power

because I just owned it and made it funny.

555

And you know what?

556

There stage fright has no power over

me anymore because if you can do

557

that, nothing scares you on stage.

558

John: Right.

559

I think that that's, that's

super, super important.

560

I would be mortified as well in that

situation, but hope I would be able

561

to turn, turn it around like you did.

562

Uh, gosh, you're making me think of

an, an interview, uh, situation I had

563

years ago now where something similar

happened to me before the interview

564

and I still

565

Marianne Hickman: when your screen

goes dark and you just abandon ship.

566

John: I got the job, so it was good.

567

Um, something worked.

568

Something worked.

569

But uh, but yeah, this is,

this is really important stuff.

570

You know, I, I sometimes talk about

like the first time I ever got on

571

stage to do open mic, and, uh, I

think I maybe spoke to you about this

572

before as well, about saying that

I just gave myself permission to.

573

Completely flop.

574

I could, I could bomb and it

was okay, and several people

575

bombed before I went up on stage.

576

I just thought, well, it,

yeah, it is not a big deal.

577

Several people have

already completely bombed.

578

If I get a laugh, great.

579

If I get no laughs, fine.

580

I'm rather gonna be like,

eh, it's not for me.

581

Or I'll come back again and try again.

582

But I took away the stakes.

583

I took away all the sort

of, it has to be good.

584

It has to be funny.

585

Once I took all that off

of myself, I could relax.

586

Have fun with it.

587

The pressure was off and I just

got to go up there and have fun

588

and be playful and I got laughs.

589

And I do think if I hadn't gone

up there with that, if, if I'd

590

been, I'd been afraid of doing

standup for such a long time.

591

I'd, it was like on my bucket list,

but I was terrified of it as well, if

592

Marianne Hickman: Uh, that's,

that's how you know it's good

593

John: Right.

594

and

595

Marianne Hickman: you're scared of it.

596

John: And so it is one of those, uh, my

friend kept saying, one of my friends

597

kept me, when are you gonna do it?

598

When are you gonna do it?

599

And they said, there's an open mic

night in English now in the city.

600

I'm like, oh, man, when

are you gonna do it?

601

When you gonna, uh, and eventually I

just like, all right, I'm gonna do this.

602

I said, I'm gonna do this.

603

And, and then I, I interviewed, uh,

Judy Carter who wrote the new comedy

604

Bible, and that chat inspired me

to, to just go for it and do it.

605

But it was so important that.

606

It didn't have to be

perfect the first time up.

607

And I could, I, I think I forgot

some of my, some of the things that

608

I thought were some of my funniest

jokes, but I still got laughs and,

609

and so I tried to take that with me.

610

Pretty much anytime I go on, on

stage, try and take the stake down

611

and just say it's okay to, you don't

need to be stressed about this.

612

You can just go have fun.

613

I think that's some, there's

some essence in that.

614

And what, and what you're saying there.

615

Marianne Hickman: Oh, 100%.

616

I mean, do you feel high

pressure when you go have a

617

conversation with your best friend?

618

John: Not usually.

619

Marianne Hickman: just no.

620

I mean, I, I don't even feel high

pressure if I'm bringing up a tough

621

conversation because they're my

friend and I know they've got my back.

622

Now, when you're going in front of an

audience, you don't have that reassurance.

623

You don't know what the audience has.

624

Your back now, what you do know.

625

That the audience wants you

to do well, they didn't bring

626

their rotten tomatoes with them.

627

In most cases, they want you to do

well, so who's gonna have your back?

628

It's just what you said, John.

629

It's yourself.

630

I know that after this is over,

I'm still gonna have a pulse.

631

The chances of me dying are not zero,

but they're very, very, very small.

632

From stage fright.

633

So odds are we're gonna survive

this and we're gonna be fine.

634

And you know what, John?

635

I take the same approach to high stakes

situations that aren't the stage.

636

And I have to admit this, and my

husband knows this, so I'm gonna

637

feel okay saying this out loud.

638

When, when I got divorced,

that was a high stakes thing.

639

I had five kids at the time, and it

was the toughest decision, one of the

640

toughest decisions I have ever made.

641

It's not just me.

642

It's affecting, it's my five children.

643

And in, by the way, I do not

recommend being a young, single

644

adult, especially in Utah.

645

If it, if there was a Yelp review

for this, it'd be like one star.

646

Do not recommend thumbs down.

647

It was terrible.

648

I hated it.

649

But what I did love was rediscovering

who I was and maybe for the

650

first time discovering who I was.

651

And when I went into my, my

second and final marriage.

652

This was a high stakes thing

because I knew it had to be final.

653

I knew I couldn't make the same mistakes

that I had made in my first marriage.

654

I knew I couldn't be the same person I

was in my first marriage 'cause that would

655

invite the old mistakes to come back in.

656

But this had to be final.

657

And this thought of it is so high

stakes and, and I can't mess up all

658

of this pressure made dating vary.

659

Awful on top of already being awful.

660

It was just the worst.

661

But when I did what you just said,

and I let go and said, I'm gonna

662

trust myself, I know I have my back.

663

All the pressure was off, all

the impersonation was off.

664

All of the, the masking and the, you

know, the, and this is how it showed up.

665

Now, I don't know about you, but

I can win any burping contest.

666

I enter hands down.

667

No problem.

668

My friends used to tell me it was

my mating call, and I thought for a

669

while that that's why I was single.

670

And uh, I remember the first

time I went to the gym.

671

With my now husband, we hadn't

even started dating yet.

672

We went to the gym together and as we

left the gym, I don't know if it was

673

the pre-workout combined with the bench

press, but I let out a 10 outta 10.

674

It had the duration.

675

It had the volume.

676

It had the intensity.

677

It was amazing.

678

We rate each other by the way, and

I realized I had let out this huge

679

burp as I'm walking next to this

adorable man who I haven't even started

680

dating yet, and after I let it out,

there was a moment of, oh my gosh.

681

Maybe I shouldn't have done that in

front of this man who I want to date.

682

Uh, that could be really embarrassing.

683

And it quickly evaporated when he

looked at me and he is like, I'd

684

get that a solid nine and a half.

685

And I was like, I found my person.

686

It was my mating call.

687

This is epic.

688

So all of that to say just this, this

release of pressure that you're talking

689

about, it, it's okay to be yourself and

guess what yourself is gonna mess up.

690

Do you have enough compassion for

yourself to be like, that's okay.

691

Pick yourself up, dust yourself

off, and let's move on.

692

John: Yeah, these, the too, too

many things in life, uh, where we

693

hold too many times, where we hold

ourselves back for fear of what

694

other people are gonna think of us.

695

Yet, when we own who we are, when

we are confident in who we are,

696

and we just show up with that.

697

And as you say, let go and be yourself,

and some people are gonna like it.

698

Some people aren't.

699

And that's exactly it.

700

That's how you find your people.

701

That's you find the right people to,

to be getting up in front of, you know,

702

not everything can be for everybody.

703

Um, you know, like perfumes or

colognes, it's like can smell

704

great on one person and can smell

horrible on someone else's and else.

705

And so not everything is for everybody.

706

And, and that's true with

us and our personalities.

707

And, and I do think it is this trying

to be for everybody or trying not to

708

upset anyone or rock the apple carts

or, and just trying to be this image

709

of who we think we're supposed to

be instead of just being ourselves.

710

That stops us from being able

to connect, turns everything

711

into a performance instead

712

Marianne Hickman: of

713

John: um, just being on stage.

714

Marianne Hickman: Yeah, absolutely.

715

And I think it comes from a deep.

716

Deep, empty container within us

of not liking ourselves very much.

717

That's why we're seeking

for it from other people.

718

I want to be likable

because I don't like myself.

719

People don't know the

end of that sentence.

720

John: Right, and, and there is that

whole principle of you, you can't give.

721

Other people what you don't have.

722

And, and this this was one of those,

um, things that, you know, I, I

723

had to learn that in relationships.

724

I had to learn that, that I think a

lot of people are looking for that

725

in, in, with the love of their life,

but they're looking for it in other

726

places as well, of the validation, the

appreciation, the some, someone to get

727

me, someone to fix me or whatever it is.

728

And you have to be that

person for yourself.

729

It took me, took me years to really

get to that and figure that out.

730

But also when I figured

that out in relationships, I

731

was also figuring that out.

732

On stage as well.

733

It's also figuring that in how I connect

to other people, it's like, all right, I,

734

I am likable because I can, like myself,

I am lovable because I can love myself.

735

I have that.

736

I figured that out.

737

Now I can have all the other stuff

that compliments it without needing

738

without, without it having to be there.

739

I, I'm still, I'm a whole person

without those things as well.

740

Marianne Hickman: Absolutely that.

741

Oh man.

742

And you and I both know what

it's like to sit in front of

743

someone who desperately needs it.

744

It's very off-putting.

745

It's, it's, I'm gonna use a very

strong word that I watched when

746

I saw, when I watched Benedict

coming back to Sherlock Holmes.

747

Have you seen this series?

748

Oh, so good.

749

He walks into the bathroom

with this reporter.

750

And she's desperately trying to get

his attention and get a story with him.

751

And he walks up to her with the most

mic drop phrase I've ever heard him say.

752

And he said, it just

whispered in her hair.

753

He said, you repel me.

754

And I thought, whoa.

755

Oh my gosh.

756

Whoa, am am I repulsive?

757

Am I repulsive to people?

758

And you know what?

759

I was worried about it then.

760

And now I'm grateful for it.

761

I repel people all the time.

762

There are people that are repulsed

by me all the time and they're

763

not my people and that's okay.

764

I don't need them to like

me, the Queen of England.

765

I don't think she would like me very much.

766

I'm much too improper.

767

That's okay.

768

Well, I guess it doesn't matter

anymore, but the King of England, he

769

probably would have the same opinion.

770

That's okay.

771

I'm okay with my people.

772

In fact, I love my people.

773

And you know what it, you mentioned

earlier a friend of yours who reflected

774

something to you and, and pushed

something, you know, he's like, go try it.

775

You've been talking about it forever.

776

Go try it.

777

Those are the people that I want to

attract, the people that love me for

778

who I am and love me for who I can

be, and they nudge me there often.

779

I like to hang around those people.

780

I hope to find more of those people.

781

John: And challenge you

in the healthy ways.

782

Marianne Hickman: Yeah.

783

Yeah.

784

They said, well, you want this.

785

Why aren't you going and getting it?

786

Whoop.

787

John: Yeah, I, I agree.

788

I think so.

789

Good to have those

people in, in our lives.

790

And I think if you are, if you are the

person who's doing that for everyone

791

else and you don't have anyone doing

that for you, you need to get into a

792

room where you are not, where, where

there's people who can do that for you.

793

Uh, 'cause I think team is, uh.

794

We can get into a service attitude

sometimes where we think we have

795

to be the person who's give,

give, give for everyone else, but

796

Marianne Hickman: Especially as speakers.

797

John: Right, especially speakers, but

we have to fill our own cup as well.

798

And I think that can be very

hard for speakers when we're

799

often working remotely.

800

We're often traveling, you know, there's

all times where we don't, we're not always

801

spending our time around other people.

802

We have to probably make an

extra effort to have those things

803

in our lives to some degree.

804

But they are out there if we're willing

to put in the work to to find them.

805

And they're completely worth the

investment of energy and time to do so.

806

Marianne Hickman: Well, I

think that's an integrity play.

807

How on earth can we get up on

stage or on a podcast or run our

808

own event as speakers if we are

not students in a different room?

809

John: Yeah.

810

Marianne Hickman: That seems like it.

811

Like how?

812

How dare we, how dare we be?

813

So presumptuous is to say, I've

arrived and I'm only leading

814

now and I'm not following.

815

No, no.

816

That's in fact, if we're in the

audience, that's a hallmark.

817

Something to watch for.

818

Ask a speaker who their coach

is, and the three speaker who's

819

not threatened will tell you.

820

John: Yeah.

821

Do you, do you feel, there's something

that I've noticed and, and maybe

822

you have as well, that there is, um.

823

Less of, uh, less attraction to maybe

less power in the guru these days

824

in the, that, that sort of person

that we're talking about who's like,

825

they've already got it all figured out.

826

They've got all the answers and, uh, they

can tell you, eh, everything you need,

827

you don't need to go anywhere else at all.

828

Everything is, is here.

829

You know, there's people who, um, I think

it was very common, like when I first

830

got into personal development kind of

events back in the early two thousands.

831

There was a lot of that.

832

A lot of and, and now I think it's, people

are much more keen on having gen, genuine

833

connection, genuine presence on stage.

834

But have you seen that?

835

Have you noticed that yourself?

836

Right.

837

Marianne Hickman: I think Tony Robbins

started the avalanche of the guru

838

when he put out his Netflix special.

839

I'm not your guru of all of the

people in the world that say that

840

his had the most impact because he

is the man, the myth, the legend.

841

He arguably started the life

coaching industry as, as the first.

842

I dunno if he was the first,

but definitely the biggest and

843

most well-known life coach.

844

And when he put up that special

that said, I am not your guru, you

845

don't even have to have watched it.

846

To have the impact of that message

hit you like a ton of bricks.

847

And you know, this, this, uh,

this bro thing I was talking about

848

earlier is the antithesis of that.

849

It screams, I'm your guru.

850

I have arrived, I have all the answers.

851

Uh, it, it's.

852

In its worst cases, people are

basically saying, there's no

853

difference between me and God.

854

Hello.

855

I've heard people say that from stage.

856

John: Wow.

857

Marianne Hickman: It is absolutely

insane to me and that the tragedy

858

of is that some people fall for it.

859

Like, no, you're, you're fallible,

you're human just like the rest

860

of us and the people that, that we

as speakers when we get on stage.

861

Now, I did talk about.

862

Speaking from scars instead of wounds.

863

But here's, here's what to say.

864

Like we all have open wounds that

we're working on all of the time,

865

but don't lie to us and tell

us that they're closed scars.

866

Don't lie to us and say, I've

already healed from this, and know

867

exactly what to do when you haven't.

868

If you're going through stuff,

I'm not gonna say that's not okay.

869

It is okay.

870

It is okay.

871

And you know what?

872

Alex Hermosa talked about this

when he launched with Sam Ovens

873

when he launched this school thing.

874

It's taken the, the, the

teaching world by storm.

875

He said, you know, there's, there's

actually a way to create community.

876

When you don't know stuff yet,

you can say, Hey, listen, I'm

877

learning how to homestead.

878

Who wants to learn with me?

879

Hey, listen, I want to learn

how to be funnier on stage.

880

Who wants to learn this with me?

881

Let's all study together.

882

Let's bring in everything that

we're all learning together.

883

I'm not lying and saying, I

already know how to do this.

884

Come do it with me quickly.

885

Doing a Google search and

posting a YouTube video, of

886

which I know nothing about.

887

That's not how that works, right?

888

It's like the 18-year-old life coach.

889

I'm a life coach and I haven't had

enough life to even coach about,

890

lived with my parents my whole

life, like, no, no, it's not.

891

It's not a shameful thing to be

a student, but just admit it.

892

And if you have achieved, you know,

a 10 steps further down the path than

893

a lot of people, Viktor Frankl said

this, it's our obligation to reach

894

back and help the next person climb up.

895

So if you're still learning, just

admit you're still learning, but

896

be willing to teach what you know.

897

John: I, I love the lifelong

student aspect philosophy.

898

Um, I think it's an attitude we

should keep with us all of the time.

899

And I've seen this in.

900

Martial arts, I, I studied.

901

Oh

902

Marianne Hickman: you read my mind.

903

We just shared brain

cell there for a second.

904

John: Cool.

905

Um, but I studied, uh, ninjitsu, uh,

Japanese martial arts for a long time.

906

And, uh, something I, I hope to go back

to if I can find a club near enough.

907

But, uh, I went to Japan to study with the

908

Marianne Hickman: masters in

909

John: Tokyo.

910

Yeah, it was a wonderful

experience and, um.

911

So I got spend time with the masters

there and the grandmaster of the,

912

of the Ninjitsu Dore there, who

I think is still alive, like not

913

teaching anymore, but in his nineties.

914

But he was still teaching then

and uh, this wasn't that long ago.

915

And the, the whole philosophy

there, the whole attitude of,

916

yeah, we are much further.

917

I just got my black belt when I

was there, which was so exciting.

918

Marianne Hickman: And

919

John: And, um, and they, they

were so much further ahead.

920

Of course, they had gone through all

the different dances they were and,

921

and we're teaching it and um, and

yet there was so much humility there.

922

There was so much.

923

You still have stuff to teach us as well.

924

We still have stuff to learn.

925

We just know these things

and we have experience here.

926

We are still students, we're

still learning and like I

927

love that kind of humility.

928

There was no guru ness about it.

929

Even from the grandma.

930

There's like a lot of respect.

931

A lot of respect for him and,

and awareness of his ability

932

and his teaching over the years.

933

But no arrogance.

934

No, look at me.

935

No, I have all the answers.

936

It was very, very gentle, very,

um, I was gonna say debut that,

937

but it was just very, very gentle

and very, um, philosophical and

938

it was a wonderful experience.

939

It was an opening experience.

940

I thought that's how I

want it to be all the time.

941

Marianne Hickman: Yeah.

942

Yeah, I heard, and I wish I could

remember the source on this.

943

I can't remember if I heard it from

stage or if I read it in a book.

944

The martial arts philosophy.

945

Uh, man, I wish I knew

the guru, not the guru.

946

I almost said the wrong word.

947

The grand who said, when I

die, bury me in a white belt.

948

John: Ah.

949

Marianne Hickman: I don't wanna

be buried with my black belt,

950

with all my black belt rankings.

951

I want you to bury me in a white belt

to symbolize that I'm still new at this.

952

Even when I die, I'm still new at this.

953

There's so much to learn.

954

And that white belt mentality,

it's, it's humbling, isn't it?

955

Because a white belt.

956

When you go into any dojo, a white belt,

for those of you that don't know martial

957

arts, it means that you're the new kid.

958

You haven't ranked up at all, you haven't

earned any status, you haven't earned

959

any medals, haven't beat anyone up yet.

960

You probably can't defend a sheep, but

you have a white belt, but you're there

961

and you're learning, and that that

white belt advertises that you're new.

962

John: Yeah.

963

Marianne Hickman: And it's another

way of saying I hope to always

964

be the dumbest kid in the room.

965

I do because there's so much to learn.

966

And, and you know what's really cool is

if you're, if you have that same mentality

967

from time to time and you go into rooms

and you just sit and listen and you don't

968

have to be the last one to have the last

word, and you don't have to be the speaker

969

on stage, sometimes the most effective

speakers are silent most of the time.

970

I just made that up.

971

That goes on a shirt.

972

John: You heard it here first.

973

Marianne Hickman: Yeah.

974

Right.

975

John: But, but, but a hun a hundred

percent that there's, the, the, a humility

976

and a vulnerability to that as well

was, uh, I think people do put on this,

977

uh, armor of they need to be perfect.

978

They need to be invulnerable.

979

They need to, um, be like so

ar this beyond confident that

980

they're, um, imp unimpeachable.

981

And, and I do think there is just

a level of which we are very.

982

Probably need to go over as a

society, but we are very easily

983

convinced by somebody's confidence.

984

Marianne Hickman: Oh yes.

985

Oh

986

John: says something very confidently,

we are more likely to believe

987

them than somebody who maybe is

a little questioning about it.

988

But

989

Marianne Hickman: Well,

the Dunning Kruger effect.

990

John: right?

991

Marianne Hickman: Did we

talk about that before?

992

John: I thought we did No, I don't

993

Marianne Hickman: So the Dunning,

you're familiar with this term?

994

John: I am.

995

Marianne Hickman: Okay.

996

So for those of you that aren't, I wasn't,

the Dunning Kruger effect was founded by

997

two very German scientists, obviously.

998

And uh, they learned this from

deduce to how do you do an effect?

999

You make it up, I don't know.

00:47:07,098 --> 00:47:09,978

But they observed a man who

covered himself in lemon juice

00:47:09,978 --> 00:47:11,988

and then went to a bank to rob it.

00:47:12,228 --> 00:47:13,473

John: I had this, yeah.

00:47:13,728 --> 00:47:15,108

Marianne Hickman: And

when they arrested him.

00:47:15,708 --> 00:47:17,748

They were just like,

listen, we caught you.

00:47:18,018 --> 00:47:19,488

I kind of feel bad for you.

00:47:19,878 --> 00:47:23,028

I can only imagine that conversation

like, sweetheart, what's going on?

00:47:23,028 --> 00:47:24,858

Like, how did you think you

were gonna get away with?

00:47:25,158 --> 00:47:30,168

Well, he said that Invisible ink,

if you've watched, uh, any Nicholas

00:47:30,168 --> 00:47:32,178

Cage movie, you know that invisible

ink is made with lemon juice.

00:47:32,178 --> 00:47:35,298

So he thought, Hmm, if invisible mink is

made with lemon juice, then if I cover

00:47:35,538 --> 00:47:36,918

myself in lemon juice, maybe the camera.

00:47:38,538 --> 00:47:41,748

Dunning and Kruger looked at this and

I can only imagine those conversations

00:47:41,748 --> 00:47:45,108

be like, ID, we should, we've

probably seen this more than once.

00:47:45,258 --> 00:47:46,638

Maybe not with lemon juice,

but with other things.

00:47:46,638 --> 00:47:47,508

I bet there's a trend here.

00:47:47,688 --> 00:47:51,648

So they do what the, the brilliant

scientists do when they create this

00:47:51,648 --> 00:47:54,348

map and they observe stupid people

doing stupid things, ask them why

00:47:54,348 --> 00:47:57,738

they did it, and it's because exactly

what you said, they confidence was

00:47:57,978 --> 00:48:03,433

on the Y axis, very high, and their

experience was on the X axis, very low.

00:48:03,943 --> 00:48:05,473

Just enough to get themselves in trouble.

00:48:05,473 --> 00:48:08,623

And at the peak of this Dunning

Kruger effect is when you act

00:48:08,623 --> 00:48:12,883

with peak confidence and so little

experience that they literally

00:48:12,883 --> 00:48:14,233

call it the top of mount stupid.

00:48:16,503 --> 00:48:20,133

This is when we speak so confidently about

something we know nothing about or worse,

00:48:20,133 --> 00:48:23,943

cover ourselves in lemon juice, literally,

or proverbially and do something stupid.

00:48:24,303 --> 00:48:27,003

And what happens is we

get gobsmacked for it.

00:48:27,003 --> 00:48:30,483

Sometimes it, it means people

get embarrassed, or sometimes it

00:48:30,483 --> 00:48:34,008

means they go to jail and then

they go to this valley of despair.

00:48:34,008 --> 00:48:37,383

And the only way to get sustainably

out of it is to educate yourself.

00:48:38,283 --> 00:48:38,573

John: Yeah.

00:48:38,703 --> 00:48:41,013

Marianne Hickman: And that

requires silence and it requires

00:48:41,013 --> 00:48:42,363

listening, and it requires.

00:48:43,098 --> 00:48:46,908

Experimenting, maybe with, you

can have some confidence, but at

00:48:46,908 --> 00:48:50,808

least some measure of humility.

00:48:50,838 --> 00:48:53,118

You can have confidence,

humility in the same pill by the

00:48:53,118 --> 00:48:55,128

way, and then climb back out.

00:48:55,128 --> 00:48:58,188

And you'll find that the people who

have exited and climbed the real

00:48:58,188 --> 00:49:03,048

mountain of knowledge, and even more

so wisdom, which is knowing when

00:49:03,048 --> 00:49:05,088

to execute that knowledge, do so.

00:49:05,733 --> 00:49:11,073

When they allow their, their actions

to only exhibit themselves when

00:49:11,073 --> 00:49:15,033

the confidence and the knowledge

match that is the exit strategy.

00:49:15,303 --> 00:49:15,573

John: Yeah.

00:49:16,053 --> 00:49:16,413

I do.

00:49:16,473 --> 00:49:20,343

I do feel like this is one of the,

uh, influence principles that.

00:49:20,823 --> 00:49:22,713

Cialdini should have covered in his

00:49:22,863 --> 00:49:23,568

Marianne Hickman: book But

00:49:24,468 --> 00:49:29,163

John: but, um, but it, it is that

case of, um, you know, if someone, if

00:49:29,163 --> 00:49:31,773

there's a fire and someone's confident

sat, go this way, go this way.

00:49:32,103 --> 00:49:34,533

And some, and someone who's

actually the fire marshal maybe is

00:49:34,533 --> 00:49:36,363

saying, oh, come, come follow me.

00:49:36,368 --> 00:49:36,608

Follow me.

00:49:37,053 --> 00:49:39,873

You're gonna follow the person who's

confident, go this way, go this way.

00:49:39,873 --> 00:49:42,873

Even if they're leading

you into a, a, a dead end.

00:49:42,933 --> 00:49:43,383

Uh, and

00:49:43,443 --> 00:49:43,833

Marianne Hickman: and you

00:49:44,493 --> 00:49:46,773

John: that, that's, that's

where we, we are kind of wide.

00:49:47,358 --> 00:49:51,498

We can certainly leverage, leverage

that ourselves, but this is one of the

00:49:51,498 --> 00:49:57,528

reasons why so many stories or personal

experience, kind of anecdotal things are

00:49:57,528 --> 00:50:03,318

taken as true or confidently believed

because they're delivered with confidence.

00:50:03,648 --> 00:50:03,978

They're delivered.

00:50:03,978 --> 00:50:05,598

This my experience, right?

00:50:06,108 --> 00:50:07,458

Marianne Hickman: oh, can

I tell you about this?

00:50:07,458 --> 00:50:08,508

This that I did that?

00:50:08,598 --> 00:50:09,228

Oh my gosh.

00:50:09,258 --> 00:50:09,468

Okay.

00:50:09,468 --> 00:50:10,113

So I was very single.

00:50:11,553 --> 00:50:13,863

And I was like, I need to

go out and meet people.

00:50:13,923 --> 00:50:17,073

There was a, I don't know if you, they,

they do this where you live, but here they

00:50:17,073 --> 00:50:19,293

have these kind of murder mystery parties,

00:50:19,638 --> 00:50:19,908

John: Yeah.

00:50:20,283 --> 00:50:21,603

Marianne Hickman: no

actual murder involved.

00:50:21,993 --> 00:50:24,963

But what they do is they invite

all of the guests, you buy a ticket

00:50:24,963 --> 00:50:27,933

and you, they feed you dinner,

and then they have a bunch of

00:50:27,933 --> 00:50:31,053

hired actors that act out a scene.

00:50:31,053 --> 00:50:34,653

And the fun of it is in, in

solving the murder, making

00:50:34,653 --> 00:50:36,153

the accusations and so forth.

00:50:36,663 --> 00:50:39,663

And so I went to this

event again, very single.

00:50:40,263 --> 00:50:40,833

By myself.

00:50:40,833 --> 00:50:44,883

Dinner for one, I had a table of

eight and I, I was very late to

00:50:44,883 --> 00:50:48,183

the event, probably 20 minutes late

and I was like, oh, I don't even

00:50:48,183 --> 00:50:49,173

know if they're gonna let me in.

00:50:49,233 --> 00:50:49,803

They did.

00:50:50,043 --> 00:50:56,163

And so I arrived to my table late and

that is, that was my first tool and in

00:50:56,163 --> 00:50:58,593

the back of my head I was like, oh, okay.

00:50:58,593 --> 00:50:59,793

I have an advantage here.

00:50:59,853 --> 00:51:03,963

I wonder, I don't even know if this

thought formulated completely before I

00:51:03,963 --> 00:51:08,853

started doing it, but I said, I wonder

if I can be the red herring tonight.

00:51:10,143 --> 00:51:12,273

I wonder if I can convince.

00:51:12,903 --> 00:51:14,163

Nobody knows me here.

00:51:14,433 --> 00:51:15,543

Nobody knows me.

00:51:15,723 --> 00:51:16,983

They don't know me as a speaker.

00:51:17,223 --> 00:51:20,073

They don't know me as I've

never been to this crowd before.

00:51:20,643 --> 00:51:26,313

I wonder if I can convince them to

accuse me in this mock murder scene

00:51:27,483 --> 00:51:29,898

and, uh, pretend like I'm involved.

00:51:29,918 --> 00:51:33,253

And I had to play my cards

exceptionally carefully, and I.

00:51:33,888 --> 00:51:35,028

John, I did it.

00:51:35,088 --> 00:51:38,118

I got my entire, I don't know how

I did, but I got my entire table

00:51:38,118 --> 00:51:39,498

to duck under the tablecloth.

00:51:39,918 --> 00:51:42,648

I got my entire table to

trade glasses with each other.

00:51:42,828 --> 00:51:45,528

I got my entire table to put the

napkin on the lap of the person

00:51:45,528 --> 00:51:49,248

next to them, just because I went

with confidence and it worked.

00:51:49,248 --> 00:51:52,788

I got the entire, I was

number one suspect that night.

00:51:53,538 --> 00:51:56,478

I didn't get a date out of it, but

I was the number one suspect that

00:51:56,478 --> 00:52:00,138

night even so much that the manager

of the conference asked if I had been

00:52:00,138 --> 00:52:02,928

brought in by another drama group.

00:52:03,453 --> 00:52:05,613

When I told him I hadn't,

he offered me a job.

00:52:06,903 --> 00:52:11,523

I said no, but it was the most fun

I've had on a date by myself ever.

00:52:12,828 --> 00:52:16,398

John: But a great illustration of the

power of just being confident in a

00:52:16,443 --> 00:52:16,593

Marianne Hickman: Yeah.

00:52:17,628 --> 00:52:21,768

John: It makes, it makes all the

difference, you know, is that regardless

00:52:21,768 --> 00:52:25,218

of, I think sometimes regardless of how

someone is dressed or how they look or

00:52:25,608 --> 00:52:31,938

what their body shape is or anything,

that confidence out surpasses all of that.

00:52:32,478 --> 00:52:35,958

If you con, if you have confidence,

that's what people notice.

00:52:36,858 --> 00:52:37,638

Marianne Hickman: Absolutely.

00:52:37,968 --> 00:52:41,028

can get a long way with it Yeah Agree

00:52:41,298 --> 00:52:42,378

John: For better or for worse.

00:52:42,408 --> 00:52:42,768

Exactly.

00:52:42,768 --> 00:52:45,678

Like any tool of influence, it can

be, it be used for good or bad.

00:52:46,608 --> 00:52:49,908

This is, this has honestly been such a, a

fun conversation that I, I, I don't want

00:52:49,908 --> 00:52:54,948

it to end, but it has to unfortunately

because we have, we, we both, we both have

00:52:54,948 --> 00:52:58,668

other things we need to do today, but,

um, it is been, it has been a real joy.

00:52:59,358 --> 00:53:04,398

I do wonder for, for you, um,

what if someone wants to find out

00:53:04,398 --> 00:53:05,083

more about you, because I think.

00:53:05,898 --> 00:53:06,738

Undoubtedly the will.

00:53:06,768 --> 00:53:09,558

You've been so engaging and

and entertaining on the show.

00:53:09,768 --> 00:53:11,898

Someone wants to connect with you

and maybe even learn from you.

00:53:11,898 --> 00:53:13,343

What's the best way for them to do that?

00:53:13,998 --> 00:53:16,608

Marianne Hickman: So I, I, I'm all

over social media, so if you just look

00:53:16,608 --> 00:53:17,688

up my name, you can find it there.

00:53:17,688 --> 00:53:19,878

But I really like to just

connect with people personally.

00:53:19,878 --> 00:53:23,838

I give out my phone number, so

like I, I just want you to text me.

00:53:23,838 --> 00:53:25,308

I want you to say, you

heard me on John's show.

00:53:26,178 --> 00:53:29,448

That way I can tell John that he's

having some reach, which is really cool.

00:53:29,808 --> 00:53:30,528

So just text me.

00:53:30,528 --> 00:53:36,588

My number is 8 0 1, I'm in

America, so +1-801-509-FIVE 4 9 5.

00:53:36,588 --> 00:53:37,308

Just text me.

00:53:37,308 --> 00:53:39,288

Say, Hey, let's develop a relationship.

00:53:39,288 --> 00:53:42,528

Let's go out for a virtual coffee, you

know, and you can go to my website and

00:53:42,528 --> 00:53:44,178

download all the stuff that I have there.

00:53:44,178 --> 00:53:46,878

That's all well and good, but if you

wanna just hang out and get to know

00:53:46,878 --> 00:53:49,818

each other, just text me and then

let's, let's learn from each other.

00:53:49,818 --> 00:53:51,888

I wanna learn from you and let's hang out.

00:53:52,623 --> 00:53:53,523

John: I, I love that.

00:53:53,523 --> 00:53:56,583

And that is an incredible, I don't

think anyone has ever given out

00:53:56,583 --> 00:54:00,813

their phone number on my show in,

five or so years of doing this.

00:54:00,813 --> 00:54:01,923

So that, that's amazing.

00:54:01,923 --> 00:54:04,803

And I think that's a great way

to really personalize stuff

00:54:04,803 --> 00:54:05,518

and get people to connect.

00:54:05,518 --> 00:54:06,693

So gi, give Marianne a call.

00:54:07,083 --> 00:54:08,373

Uh, you won't, you won't regret it.

00:54:08,373 --> 00:54:10,773

You'll have a, a very least

a fun conversation, I'm

00:54:10,983 --> 00:54:12,933

Marianne Hickman: And if I mute myself,

it's probably 'cause I'm on the toilet.

00:54:12,933 --> 00:54:13,263

So.

00:54:14,743 --> 00:54:16,848

John: To just watch out for

those time differences, right?

00:54:16,848 --> 00:54:19,608

You don't want, uh, 3:00

AM uh, 3:00 AM calls,

00:54:19,668 --> 00:54:21,648

Marianne Hickman: reserve the

right to ignore a 3:00 AM call

00:54:21,648 --> 00:54:22,488

and get back to you later.

00:54:22,488 --> 00:54:23,298

I'll, say that

00:54:23,298 --> 00:54:27,318

John: much Mar Mario, it has been a

real delight to have you on the show.

00:54:27,318 --> 00:54:29,748

Thank you so much for coming and

being my guest and sharing such a

00:54:29,748 --> 00:54:33,048

wonderful conversation and so many

insights and experiences with us today.

00:54:33,438 --> 00:54:34,578

Marianne Hickman: It's

been my pleasure, John.

00:54:34,578 --> 00:54:35,193

Thank you so much.

00:54:35,628 --> 00:54:36,348

John: Thank you.

00:54:36,902 --> 00:54:41,402

So if you apply just one idea from this

episode, connect first and then perform.

00:54:41,642 --> 00:54:45,662

You've heard it before if you've been

tuning into the show, so your next talk

00:54:45,662 --> 00:54:47,432

gets instantly better when you do this.

00:54:47,532 --> 00:54:50,262

Ignore it, and you are sliding

towards status theater.

00:54:50,352 --> 00:54:53,862

Louder, shinier, emptier

and less bookable.

00:54:54,282 --> 00:54:58,122

You heard how scars are greater

than wounds and how humor speeds

00:54:58,122 --> 00:55:02,442

learning, and why white belt mindset

keeps you sharp and credible.

00:55:03,072 --> 00:55:05,712

Do subscribe to present influence

and drop a quick review.

00:55:05,862 --> 00:55:08,232

It helps me to see if there's

no ick direction is hitting

00:55:08,232 --> 00:55:11,712

home and if you want coaching on

building ethical authority that.

00:55:11,889 --> 00:55:15,249

And talks that actually land

reach out, links out in the

00:55:15,249 --> 00:55:16,629

description and the show notes.

00:55:16,629 --> 00:55:18,489

In the meantime, have an amazing week.

00:55:18,489 --> 00:55:20,049

See you next time.