Host Michael Graen is joined by Dr. Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P, Director of Research and Technical Professor at Auburn University, about the past, present, and future of the RFID tag. They discuss their views in this second part on RFID including:

• RFID tag evolution.
• Creative solutions for RFID tagging.
• RFID's impact on sustainability and packaging redesign.

Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P: Increase offering.

Perfect. I picked spec T, which to automotive

tires because it's showed up bigger, this could be just for

dimensions. So those could be like a four inch by four inch

kind of label. But you have other ones for apparel and other

things that literally could be what a small is one inch by one

inch or ...?

Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P: One inch. Yeah. And then the goal is

always to make it smaller. So in that way, it can integrate into

the packaging seamlessly without having to people change

packaging. Like when we started, you know, doing this in 2009,

the smallest tag we had was a 90 millimeter tag, right, because

there is no suitable for four inch labels, that would go on

the size of a carton or even the size of a pallet. And it worked

back then for the use cases. But as we moved into item level

RFID, where we are tagging individual unique pieces of

items, the tag had to get smaller so that it can be

integrated better into the packaging, then it's year over

year, you know, the tags are getting smaller and smaller,

right, you know, where we are tagging items, you know, much

beyond apparel right now. And you know, people are coming up

with unique ways to create different sizes and form factors

to fit those product needs.

So that you let it go beautifully into the next

question. So you've been doing this since 2003, it's at 2024,

we're literally 21 years into this thing. Talk to us about

hash tag size, which you've already kind of mentioned, tag

performance, as a gotten better and faster, more reliable, like

most technologies and tag costs, not looking for quotes of tags,

but but give us a range of where both the performance and the

costs have changed since 2003 to 2024.

Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P: Absolutely, Mike. The growth that we've

seen, or the evolution that we have seen has been primarily

driven by the use case and their volumen needs. So when we were

looking at this in 2009, the whole market for RFID, at that

point was somewhere around 30 million tags. And that was a

lot, you know, even you know, for us back then. But if you

look at, you know, some of the data that we have been looking

at recently, last year, we consume more than 40 billion

tags, right. So we started at, you know, a really small niche

Volume Two, on a path to potentially tagging trillions of

items. So the technology has sort of, you know, evolved to

support that growing need, and it like anything of its

technology, the need is always to make it cheaper, faster,

better. So, you know, and I think we have, you know, we the

industry has sort of stood up or, you know, has evolved to

meet those needs. If you look at purely from a performance

standpoint, without being an engineer, that's what I tend to

focus on, and get excited about the the performance of the tags

have, you know, almost increased 100x, compared to where we were

right. And a lot of, you know, smart people have done a lot of

great work to make that happen. To give you a little bit of

perspective, not just purely on the performance side, even on

the quality side, when we were doing this in, you know, the

case and pallet base, you know, in 2004 2005, we were expecting

our expectations of a good performing solution was in the

80s. Right, so when we got an 85% Rewrite, we consider this a

success. Yes, we were, you know, striving for something higher.

But, you know, we were happy with where things were back

then. But if you look at the technology today, we are, you

know, I wouldn't call it 100% But we are getting close to it

at scale. That's that's the most important thing. And you know,

there is increased confidence both on the performance and the

quality side of it, there are there are enough retailers that

are looking at you know, use cases like point of sale that

have some financial transaction associated with it, so they can

come to rely on so from from a pure performance standpoint. You

know, it we have made, you know, significant changes, significant

improvements. And then the other thing that also helps us it has

gotten significantly cost effective as well, you know,

when when we were looking at costs, back then we were really

talking about, you know, fractions of dollars, when we

got started in RFID, you know, so that's what we, you know,

looked at. And that made sense at that point when we were

tagging cases and pallets. But when we move to item level

that's hard to support. So today, I still remember the day

Myron stood in front of a whole lot of supplies in 2008, I

believe, when we're starting our journey at Walmart with tagging

denim and men's basics. And he said, you know, five, five years

from now, we need a five cent tag to go by ...

That was Bruce Wilkinson. That was Bruce - a

Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P: And I remember walking out of the

little credit and throw a little shade versus why Bruce stood up

and they all look like he had 17 heads. 5 cent tag? They were

like a what they know they were talking. I think they were 15 to

20 seconds back then I was like, Are you crazy? Yeah.

room and every single solution provider in the room was gonig

"what are these guys thinking?" Are they grounded in reality. Do

they know what they are asking?

I think Myron followed up is now: what Bruce

said five cents. That's what we're gonna do. We are all,

alright, Five cents boss. That's the new target.

Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P: Exactly. And we are at a place where we

are way past that. Right. Yeah. And I think you know, and that

that's, that's, that's a thing that, you know, we can expect to

see, as we as the technology evolves, as the manufacturing

processes evolve, as we bring more technology, innovation and

scale to this, I think things are still going to keep moving

in the right direction. So we can enable, you know, more and

more products and what we're tackling today.

All right, if I hear this once a week, I probably

hear that 15 times a week. Yeah, but Mike RFID doesn't work with

metal and waters. All right, Professor of RFID. It's gotten

very creative about how we actually put RFID tags on

products, right? So we help but talk to us. So somebody came out

and says we cannot do this, because it has all metal, we

actually put RFID tags on datacenter equipment, right?

There are tags specifically made that leverage that. So when you

hear that I'm sure you hear it more than I do. But it doesn't

work with water, and it doesn't work with with metal. Walk us

through kind of what the innovations of bodies from a

packaging standpoint, or RFID that actually works on metal or

works very closely, liquids, etc. Just throw out some of the

fallacies that are out there. I know one I heard the other day

and you and I laughed about it. Hey, won't work on motor oil.

Yeah, it actually works pretty good with motor oil. So walk us

through what some of these perceptions that it doesn't work

with this technology. And what's the real truth is?

Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P: Yeah, I mean, it's there's probably

more, you know, more of a misunderstanding on that than

anything else on the topic. Right. You know, I still

remember, you know, a supplier coming back to us were in one of

the playbooks that have been put out where the statement was

made, saying that if your product has mental review with

review that particular product with either the RFID lab team or

your packaging company, to make sure RFID doesn't interfere with

it. And they read that and, and, you know, their product we

believe was televisions are they're making some kind of an

electronic device that had screws in them. And they were

like, our products have screws in them, right, we put him in a

cardboard box, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to work on

it. Right. So sometimes people look at it in a way that they

want to look at rather than, you know, trying to get a

fundamental understanding. But you know, but you know, being

serious here. Yes. You know, the thing with RFID is there are

RFID tags that work across a broad range of materials. The

the simple answer to this is a tag if it needs to be applied on

directly on metal, then a tag that's not designed for that

particular application wouldn't work for it. Right. That applies

to anything else as well. You know, you had a picture of the

Add tags that we use in automotive tires. If you take

that tag and put it on, you know, an apparel item, you're

not going to get the performance and the same thing, vice versa.

Where if you take a tag that's designed for apparel and put it

on an automotive tire, it's not going to work. Well, neither

sort of that same logic extends to metal, where you have to

understand the product that you're working on, and then

create a solution that that works in that environment. And

what has changed is that adapting to that environment in

this case, which is metal items, like metal, trash can bark,

barbecue grew, the adaptation was not something that we were

doing it at scale, it is to your point, we've been tagging things

in data centers for for a lot of years, we have been tagging cars

that have been going through the manufacturing process, where the

tag is directly applied on the body of the car before it goes

into a paint shop. So we've been doing it but for a mass

application like retail, the challenge has been is how do we

do it in a cost effective and scalable way that doesn't

disrupt the whole, you know, use case behind it. So what has

changed in the last I would say two Eunice's, since there is no

scale behind tagging, metal items, right? You know, metal

items are not really an exception when you're doing a

panel, metal items and exception. So when you look with

the whole apparel department, you know, if you had 100,000

items, you know, 99.9% of it was dark metal, you had that one key

shoe polish that sort of stood out, right, so, so developing a

solution or wrapping a solution for that one SKU didn't make

sense. But we are now going into categories where we there is a

need to tag, you know, millions of those. So now, the companies

that have been making these specialized tags that were

focused on these niche applications are now developing

products that can be scaled, that can be more cost effective

to support the smart application of metal products. So and that's

what we are seeing today is we are we are being purposeful

about it. And then the other side of you know, the solution

is either you, you know, create solutions that work for metal.

But we have also seen very, very, very creative solutions

where people have modified the packaging to offset the tag from

metal. And it doesn't really require a huge offset, you know,

and in fact, metal helps with RFID, if you push in the right

way. So people have been, you know, been very creative about

how do they adapt their packaging, especially since this

is a technology that's here to stay. And most of the RFID

tagging happens at source, they can do stuff like that, you

know, in the early days where they were not really sure

whether you know whether this RFID thing is going to be

relevant two years later, or if they were tagging somewhere else

in the supply chain downstream. You know, it was a challenge.

But when you get the packaging and the production team

involved, who sort of design the product from from day one, when

they take RFID into account, then they do come up with

really, really creative ways to integrate RFID into their

product, or their packaging where it sort of works

seamlessly.

Maybe a few examples would be helpful, because I

think I mean, clearly and it's been public dollars, but Walmart

has been very, very aggressive about pushing the edge of the

envelope to get outside of apparel do - both doing apparel

was pushing other boundaries - as well as people like Home

Depot and Lowe's, etc. I mean, we're talking about stuff that's

being tagged now, like golf clubs, like baseball bats, like

cans of paint, aerosol paint, insecticide, lawn and garden

stuff, liquids. And what's happening is, we recognize

physics. We're not trying to fight physics, right? We're not

we're never going to win against physics. But we learn to come up

with creative solutions that allow us to get the tagging

done. While taking care of physics. I'll give you one

example. And you probably have others. But But I remember when

I was working with one retailer that was interested in doing

automotive tires, and they stored their tires in great big

containers in outside of the store. And we're like, half the

team's like, Well, that'll never work in there. And you and I

were like, No, it's gonna work fantastic. Because if you put

the tires inside of a container and shit and want it you'll

you'll probably want all of those tags in about 13 seconds

if that because it's gonna bounce all over the place and

get incredible reads, but if you try and read through a metal

frying pan with a tag on the other side, you're fighting

physics, right? So that's really why I like the what you guys

have done, you come up with creative ways working with your,

obviously your customers to figure out how can we put a tag

on this and still work and make financial sense for the bezels.

That that kind of what you do your, your word creative when it

comes to that kind of stuff?

Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P: Absolutely, Mike we take sort of the 90/10

approach, right, you know, as you expand RFID into any new

area, right? It can be in retail, it can be in other

industries, you can sort of, you know, figure out a solution for

90% of your products, pretty easily based on what has been

done before. And that approach and say, if your product or of

what you're trying to tag falls within this category, here is a

tried and tested approach, go for radio has been done 1000

times, it works, you don't even need to talk to us. But then

there is always going to be the class 10 person that doesn't fit

a preset, ad agree or a preset model or a preset template. And,

and those are the things that we have to essentially work with

all the stakeholders, if you will, trying to identify a

solution that works both from a technology perspective, but also

has the feasibility to manufacture and deliver at

scale. And so our team, you know, I get to brag on our team

of students, where, you know, when when, when we have that

team, we call that as a product esteem, they really do come up

with creative solutions, right. And they also sort of keep doing

this again, and again and again and again, day or day. So

something that might not, you know, make sense or may not be

relevant for that particular product category or that

particular industry vertical, they might have seen something

similar in another product category or another industry

vertical and they, they bring it in. And and the same thing

that's happening with not just us, but it's also the community

as well, you know, so for example, we were talking about

aerosol cans, you know, early, early today. So an aerosol scan

is all metal, right? And you can try to break your head trying to

figure out how to we have, you know, create a metal tag, but

not only create a metal tag, but make sure we are applying or,

you know, attaching the RFID to tag to, you know, aerosol can

that's manufactured in a process where these cans are flying 300

feet per minute in the production process, right, and

we don't want to do anything that slows them down. So that's

when you know, what our, our team and a few of our partners

that we work with, realized all of these cans have a plastic cap

on it, right. And they vary in shape and size. But the thing

that really sort of solved the problem was instead of trying to

again, attach a tag to the cap, during the manufacturing

process, they identified the manufacturers that make the cap

themselves. And those companies were, I would say much smaller

number compared to the companies that make aerosol products. But

working with those plastic cap manufacturers, they were able to

figure out ways to integrate RFID when the cap is made. So in

the cap is delivered to the aerosol company. It's RFID

enabled already. So the most that the you know, the product

manufacturer had to do was encode the RFID tag rather than

try to apply this on their manufacturing process. And

again, it all makes sense when you look back at it, because RF

when we talk about RFID yet, so we are really talking about RFID

at Sox, and it's not at the source of the product

manufacturer, but the source of the packaging company. Yep. And,

and that's something that we have done in apparel, you know,

when apparel got rolled out, the apparel companies are now

creating hangtags with RFID the Packaging Companies are right.

So in the RFID when the hang tag comes to the factory that's

making the shirt it already has RFID right. But we really sort

of lost that when we went into other categories. And we were

expecting the product companies, you know, the company is making

aerosol cans, the company is making televisions, the company

that are making the paint cans, now, you know trying to make

changes to packaging, and they're not a packaging company.

So it's going back to the basics of it and saying hey, this has

to be really done at the source. And, you know, sometimes we have

to relearn our lessons, but things like that, and that's

what makes this exciting idea of sort of solving one thing at a

time but once you solve it you're Solving it not just for

aerosol cans, but you're solving it for anything with liquids or

metal that has a plastic cabinet. Right? And then it's

something that translates not across retailer, you can do that

for farmers, you know, and translate across industries as

well.

So what I'm seeing as well is integration of this

technology across verticals, obviously, you mentioned

healthcare with pharmaceuticals. We mentioned the airlines, we've

mentioned NASA, we've mentioned all kinds of things. That one

big one, to me is RFID in the food space, and some of that

McDonald's has been very, very, very open about what they're

trying to do in terms of wooden, primarily, case level RFID

tagging, for the tracking of merchandise cetera. But but I'm

working with a couple of retailers that actually want to

get down to the item level, specifically, hey, could we do

bread? Could we do package meat, etc? Walk us through the

concerns, if any, because I'm wondering, I know one thing that

there was concerned about as well, an RFID tag has metal in

it. And if you defrost your bread, or your you know, your

packaged meat that you frozen, your fire, is that is that A is

that a real concern? Or is that not a concern?

Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P: I would say it's something to be

aware of, right and take into account when you're making

making a decision on what to tag and who you're tagging. In RFID

tag is, you know, as we talked about, has two components,

right, it has a piece of metal, it has a chip in it, and you put

a piece of metal into your microwave, the typical thing

that happens is, you know, sparks fly. And that's, you

know, that's just physics. But with a typical RFID tag on a

typical product, that risk is minimized a whole lot, because

what typically happens is you're not just taking an RFID tag by

itself into the microwave, you're putting it along with

other products. So there are you know, enough things with

moisture net, where once you stick it into a microwave, all

of the microwave energy actually goes to the food product rather

than the RFID tag. So I wouldn't, you know, address this

as like something that I would, you know, stop doing. But you

know, you make sure that the tags and there has been tags

that are developed in the market, where if someone even

decides to put, you know, something that like a container

or something that doesn't have the product anymore, but wants

to stick it directly into the microwave, there has been no

tags that are developed that would withstand. And then there

are other ways to do it. Right? You know, there are other

companies that have been expanding in home, where we are,

you know, selling Tupperware with plastic labels, automated

with RFID labels on them, that when people put Tupperware

inside the microwave and can heat things up, and not all of

them remove the label. So one of the things that we have started

doing is printing the word please remove before my career,

just as a safety thing, you know, consumers come up with

creative ways to lose, I was talking to this totally off

tangent. But you know, I was talking to a company that makes

phishing loads the other day, and they were going through a

whole package redesigning process. And they were talking

to us about hey, how they can potentially change some of the

RFID stuff, since they're going through packaging redesign. And

I was talking to them about hey, what what drove the packaging

redesign process? And their answer was, you know, there is

marketing involved. But the one thing that they were trying to

highlight was, they have to not eat in really small letters. And

they were getting enough calls from consumers who would call

them and say this fish bait doesn't taste well. You know,

this way fish may taste point, you know. So that became a huge

non value. And I'm not joking. And the whole redesign process

was to make sure that we make those levels bigger, so people

don't eat more importantly, don't eat and complain about how

it doesn't taste good, right. So the things that we have to do to

make sure that hey, you know, we are covering, you know, all our

bases, but both from a practical standpoint, and even from a

solution standpoint, that I wouldn't consider it as a

significant challenge.

Good, good, good, because that to get into the

original discussion, but when we expand the size of the RFID tag

to say in from a 96 to a 128, which is really not that big of

a deal. That allows us to not only have that serialized G10,

but have additional attributes about that on like, what date

was this bread made, so that the retailer can mark it down three

or four days later and for a reduced size? Al before they

have to throw it away, you could actually put data in addition to

the serialized detail and to do that, but let me ask you a

couple of last questions go around that time has been a

fascinating conversation. Number one, sustainability and

recyclability. I hear that once I hear it 100 times, yeah. But

we're putting all this stuff into the environment. And that's

not right. And how do we do that? Talk to us about the

sustainability and recyclability of RFID tags on packaging.

Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P: Got it. So whenever we talk about

sustainability, we sort of discuss two things, and they

sort of get intermingled. So the first thing is the

sustainability impact RFID technology has on the whole

organization, the it's really, it's a topic that I personally

believe, is not getting the recognition it should, it's

very, very understated. Because when you look at how RFID works,

and the value that is being delivered to organizations, the

way that we do things efficiently contributes directly

to the bottom line of a lot of the sustainability goals that we

have. As you know, as part of a lot of organizations, there was

a, there was a study that was done by a major retailer in UK,

who basically looked at the effect of RFID on the products

that they carry, and they estimated that they had to ship

200 Less containers across their, you know, supply chain,

to sell or, in fact, actually sell more than what they did

last year. Right. So that stuff. You know, I think somebody said

last week, the the most efficient, you know, most

sustainable container that we can ship across the ocean is the

one that we don't ship, right? You know, so we reduced the

amount of waste in you know, not only in the shipping, logistics

of it, but the things that we throw away, because we didn't

know that we had the product, and we don't have a customer

that's waiting for it. So I think from that perspective, I

think there still needs to be a lot of research that's done to

quantify the people that work in the industry sort of know and

understand the inventory direction that we have and the

value that it brings to the industry, but then taking an

even more, you know, narrow view and looking at RFID as part of

the packaging, right? And what impact does it have on recycling

specifically, if you look at, you know, there are essentially

two types of, you know, packaging, one is paper

packaging, and one is plastic, you know, I'm sure folks in

sustainability are going to kill me for generalizing it at a high

level. But from from a sustainability perspective, when

it comes to recycling on paper products. There has been

multiple research studies that have been done across the globe,

that basically shows the impact that that small chip and the

little bit of antenna that we have, doesn't fundamentally

impact the recycling of paper packaging. So just by pure

significance of the amount of materials that we have. And that

has been a clear cut case, there was even a lot of work that was

done to remove the plastic substrate that was that is

typically part of the antenna. But some of the recent research

that has come out shows that, yes, that's a nice thing to do.

But you know, fundamentally, even if there is a small bit of

plastic on paper recycling, then we should be okay. The other

flip side of it is, you know, the plastic packaging. So when

you look at plastic recycling, anything that's not plastic, in

plastic, you know, affects plastic recycling. So if you

take a plastic bottle, like this and put a paper sticker on it,

you're affecting the recyclability of the plastic

packaging. And that's not really an RFID problem. You're putting,

you know, any sticker on it is a problem. But and it was, you

know, something that was a concern initially, because most

of the RFID labels that we were creating in the industry back

then had a paper face on it so that we can print stuff on it.

But what we discovered was you can still accomplish the same

thing without having a paper face. There are other places

that you can print the same information and so once you

remove the paper or part of the RFID tag and then you know use

the same kind of plastic on the RFID tag that's on you know,

that's that's on the product, then you're sort of eliminating

the concern.

Perferct, perfect. All right. Last question for you

Senthil. This is always a fun one. What's your message to the

industry? Specifically, the solution provided? I know you

spent a lot of time with solution providers. What do they

need to start, stop, continue doing in terms of continuing to

leverage RFID for all of these various industries? What would

you like to see them start doing and stop doing and continuing

doing to to continue to drive this the application of this

technology?

Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P: Great question, Mike. Probably need

another podcast just about that. But let me let me pick up a

couple of answers. So why don't we I want to say is, you know,

the industry has sort of stepped up, I want to make sure that

they're getting credit for what they have accomplished, you

know, ecologies day and night, you know, compared to where we

were 15 years ago, and there has been a lot of bright minds that

have contributed to making this work, you know, at a scale that,

you know, it's working at right now. And, you know, and getting

ready for the future as well. So, on a broad level, I think we

are moving in the right direction. But if you had to

find a couple of things, that they could really focus on the

one thing, and I'm going to steal from Matt Alexander, who

runs the Walmart program today, is, you know, if you look at the

RFID industry today, you know, the biggest consumer of RFID

tags is apparel. But that's sort of, from our perspective set and

done, and we are moving aggressively beyond apparel, in

retail, and we are moving aggressively in other industries

as well. And if you look at a lot of solution providers, they

grew up with apparel, right, and we sort of have the same problem

as well. We, whenever we move beyond apparel, we sort of try

to work with the apparel mindset. And you know, when we

move to these other industries, yes, we could have our learnings

from apparel. But sometimes you have to sort of forget a lot of

this and, you know, step back and rethink the whole thing to

see what would really work for this industry. What is, you

know, what is the thing that we have to solve, to enable this

industry in the most efficient way, rather than trying to

shoehorn what you know, what has worked in apparel, right. And

that's hard to do. Because you have a day job where you are

still focusing on apparel, but you're also supporting growth. I

think that mindset, you know, it is there, but it's hard to

balance. I think that's, that's one thing. And I think the other

thing that's also happening, but I would want to emphasize is the

collaboration, right? You know, where you have RFID companies

who are experts in RFID, but then there are packaging

companies who are experts in packaging, but not experts in

RFID. And then you have product manufacturers, who know, you

know, their products, how it's made. And, you know, when we

move beyond, again, a battle into this new industries, you

know, collaboration makes a lot, you know, a lot of things

easier. Sometimes you have to just put them on a call

together. And you know, at the end of that, you know, you saw

the drive and all those three entities trying to do it on

their own. So it's really, really reaching out across the

industry and solving it together. So, you know, I think

that we couldn't ask, you know, we couldn't have enough of it.

I've known you since 2003, you first started in the

lab, the amount of progress we've made as an industry both

mean, just think about it, we were not doing RFID at all, to

now we're 40 billion tags. We've got major retailers, retailers,

like Walmart, and Nordstroms, and Dick's Sporting Goods and

Target, and Macy's and all these other folks who are actively

counting on this technology to drive on hand accuracy and on

shelf availability. We've reapplied it to the aviation to

pharmaceuticals to food, and frankly, without the backbone of

delivering technology, whether it's a tag and a reader, and

working with solution providers and tag manufacturers and

packaging providers and customers, etc. We wouldn't be

where we are and and I give you a lot of credit for that. Yeah,

you've you will not be humble enough, or you will be way too

humble to take any credit for it. But I gotta tell you, I

happen to know that there are very many days where you just

get beat up day after day after day by different solution

providers. Why didn't this pass it should have passed a senator

but pine frankly, you're drawing a line in the sand that says if

it doesn't pass the requirements for performance, it will get out

into the marketplace, it will fail. And then we'll have people

saying RFID fail and you refuse to let that happen. So I want

Thank you on behalf of the industry because we would not be

where we are without your tremendous leadership, your

collaboration, and, frankly, your tenacity to look for

solutions that are really outside the box. So thank you

for all you do, we'll probably get back out into the podcast

and talk about more stuff, but just the foundation of how tags

work, and what the evolution has been and all the stuff behind

it, I think it's going to be really helpful for our audience.

So thank you very much.

Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P: Thank you, Mike. And you know, and I'm

gonna say this, right? Sometimes I my name gets used more than it

should, mostly on the credit side, but all we do is sort of

like facilitated radio, you have end users that have the vision

and are driving the industry. And you know, we're not really

looking for our help to get there, right. And then you've

got all these technology providers who are coming up with

innovative solutions year over year surprising us. And then we

have a huge team here in the lab, who does all the real work.

And yes, I do get my share of, you know, complaints, both from

end users and rehab in technology providers. But I

think that's very small compared to all the credit I get. So it's

really, I would say very fortunate to be part of this

community. Yeah, I wouldn't have it any other way.

You're your kind of guy you'd like the Wizard of Oz,

you're the guy but turning all the levers and the smokes coming

out of center of it, you're back there driving the bus. So you're

too humble to just say thank you. You want to give credit to

everybody else. But Seth, I really do. Appreciate it. I

appreciate your friendship. I appreciate appreciate our

collaboration over the years. And keep doing what you're

doing, man because, you know, feels like we're just getting

started in other businesses and other categories and it's really

fun, and we thank you as an industry for all your hard work.

Senthil Chinnappa Gounder P: Thanks Mike, looking forward to the next 20.

Okay, take care. Good bye. Bye.