Shownotes
Welcome to OrchestrateSales.com's Inside Sales Enablement Season 3 Enablement History. Where we hop in the Enablement Time machine and explore the past, present, and future of the elevation of a profession.
On ISEs3 Episode 12, Erich Starrett is joined by Dr. Shawn Fowler, whom he originally met when Shawn was VP, Sales Enablement (a true cross-functional #Orchestrator) at SalesLoft, and a gracious host of his first executive board meeting as President of the Atlanta Revenue Enablement Society back in early 2020. Before then, Dr. Fowler had been the World Wide Director of Enablement & Learning for IBM, and is now a Partner in his own sales strategy and sales enablement consulting venture: RevenueReady.
Highlights from the episode include...
PAST:
⌛️ Shawn "stumbled" into the profession working as the first services salesperson for Silverpop - essentially selling desired business outcomes. The SVP of sales, Todd McCormick, announced he was hiring a head of sales enablement and the hiring manager Drew Pronté said "hey, the CEO said that you should probably be the guy."
⌛️ He didn't know what sales enablement was. At the time he was pursuing a PhD in educational psychology so he combined what he learned from working as a sales engineer and as a services salesperson with what he knew about how psychology of learning works ...and he found himself implementing their first ever Sales Enablement program.
⌛️ His first Sales Enablement event was hosted by SiriusDecisions in Atlanta. "I was thinking we need to start something where we do that on a regular basis. This was easily the most valuable thing that I've done in the last six months."
⌛️ "Getting a seat at the table was probably the biggest factor in helping me be successful in sales enablement."
⌛️ Silverpop was purchased shortly thereafter by IBM when he then developed and executed their global expansion go-to-market plan. "I had the opportunity to see what it looks like in a much bigger level. IBM is basically a handful of multi billion dollar companies all put together. And I was part of one of those multi billion dollar companies inside of it. I got to see how these really big enterprise complex sales work, how you have to enable people across multiple different continents."
⌛️ Shaw was responsible for internal sales enablement including customer service and sales engineers and external - partner enablement - as well. "I think it makes a lot of sense, honestly, when you are in that position you have the opportunity to identify and eliminate a lot of the organizational issues that negatively affects your customer and that negatively affect the team as well."
PRESENT:
💼 Dr. Fowler diagnosed a few challenges that Sales Enablement faces today:
🩺 "I think there's not enough sharing of best practices"
🩺 "The quality of sales enablement as a profession has gone down pretty dramatically in the last five years."
1 - A lot of heads of sales are hearing from their investors that they need sales enablement but there was a period of time where I don't think a lot of them really knew what it meant.
2 - Heads of sales aren't always great at hiring enablement. Recognizing talent can be difficult.
3 - There is a lot of fluff. There was a period of time where sales was a lot easier and there's an entire generation of people who are in sales enablement who didn't have to figure out how to build a better machine. They could get away with adding more people to the machine and adding revenue by doing that. With venture capital drying up there's a much bigger focus on productivity. In order to achieve productivity per rep, you have to build a better machine.
🩺 The Doc offers REMEDIES to these challenges.
💼 Shawn shares a sample dive into RevenueReady's Customer Journey Workshops and parallel playbook creation approach.
💼 The power of a bottom-up approach, involving Sales Managment / the front line in the problem framing and in the solution process. A top-down only approach lacks the tactical information from the field needed to correctly identify and frame the problem, make good decisions, and design a solid solution. It also increases adoption because the front lines were involved in shaping it.
💼 In order to succeed you must both design an effective intervention, and then execute the reinforcement required to drive real change.
💼 "Sales (Revenue) Enablement is the change management arm of revenue." WGLL shoutout to Hillary Headlee who exemplified this at Zoom, having owned both global Ops AND Enablement ...during the height of Covid! And now she's doing it at the global Advisory Leader, Growth Team @ Insight Partners
for 500-700 companies.
💼 Interview advice for Enablement: Focus on the first 90 days through the lens of the CRO. Have the attitude that you will onboard as if you are planning to be in the top 10-15% of their sales team.
FUTURE:
🤖 There's increasing recognition of the role of enablement in change management and increasing recognition of the need for an explicit change managing function in organizations. At least in more successful companies, that's what what enablement is going to be seen as.
🤖 Increased focus on frontline managers on both the new and existing sales side of the house, because the reality is everything lives or dies with the frontline manager.
🤖 AI is going to evolve and facilitate some things. The power of artificial intelligence to comb through, for instance, the thousands of minutes that are produced on a weekly basis in Gong or SalesLoft or whatever, and distill that down into insights or into moments that everyone should take notice of can be really powerful when it comes to training, coaching, and identifying what works.
Please click 👇🏻, subscribe 📲, listen 🎧 ...and 🎙️ join the conversation!
ORCHESTRATE Sales!
Erich
#RevenueEngine #DigitalTransformation
#RevenueEnablement
#AiCuriousHumanEnthusiast
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Transcripts
Hello everyone, and welcome to Inside Sales Enablement,
2
:Season Three, Enablement History.
3
:And on today's episode, I
am so excited to have Dr.
4
:Sean Fowler himself on the show.
5
:He is an Atlantan I met him through
sales loft who was actually an incredible
6
:sponsor of the sales enablement society
way before I was even a part of it and
7
:they're near and dear to my heart as
a company and They, not only put on
8
:an amazing conference rainmaker back
in my earlier days Where I learned so
9
:much from sean and his peers and the
amazing people that they attracted but
10
:they also hosted our first executive
board session when I became president
11
:of the sales enablement society.
12
:So Sean, you and sales loft are
a part of my enablement history,
13
:and I thank you for that.
14
:And I'm so glad that you are in my
present and hopefully future as well.
15
:So
16
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: That's awesome Erich.
17
:Thank you.
18
:I'm happy to be here today.
19
:Be here today.
20
:Erich Starrett: Dr.
21
:Fowler was the worldwide director
of enablement and learning for
22
:this little blue chip company
called IBM back in the day.
23
:That technology mecca, which informed him,
I'm sure, landing at Sales Loft and being
24
:the vice president of sales enablement.
25
:And now is a partner in revenue ready.
26
:Sean is one of the few folks that
I've met that truly, embodies this
27
:idea of enablement orchestration.
28
:Seeing how he interacted with everyone
in the company, he truly ran a cross
29
:functional enablement business within
a business at sales loft, which is
30
:one of the three founding positions
of the sales enablement society.
31
:And he had folks assigned doing different
flavors of enablement within the company.
32
:And he's been a part of elevating the
profession from his days back in IBM,
33
:whether or not enablement was a thing.
34
:Sean, I'm going to hand
the mic over to you.
35
:Finally.
36
:Thanks for being patient and
letting me wax poetic for a minute
37
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yeah, man.
38
:Thank you.
39
:I'm really excited to be
talking to you today..
40
:RevenueReady is it's been
a long time in the making.
41
:I first had the idea for the
company before I joined SalesLoft.
42
:Actually, if SalesLoft had not
offered me a job, I think I probably
43
:would have started the company then.
44
:But I don't think I would
have been As good at it.
45
:So remedy ready is basically
a sales strategy and sales
46
:enablement consulting company.
47
:We work primarily with B to B
sass organizations, typically
48
:series a to B and then on up.
49
:We've got some public companies
who are customers as well.
50
:And we basically are trying to.
51
:Remove the risk of sales execution
from your company strategy.
52
:There's a lot of reasons
a company can fail.
53
:Sales execution should not be one of them.
54
:So that's what we focus on.
55
:Erich Starrett: And what
about revenue operations.
56
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: We do
lightweight revenue operations.
57
:Like we've got some
reasonable rev ops jobs.
58
:You have to be good at enablement.
59
:I think, you have to really
understand the data, how to pull
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:the data, which data is right for
which situation, things like that.
61
:But when it gets beyond light revenue
operations, we pull other people in.
62
:Typically we stay in our lane.
63
:Erich Starrett: Makes a lot of sense.
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:Question number one, Sean.
65
:What do the words sales
enablement mean to you?
66
:And when did you first hear them?
67
:Dr: Yeah, I answered
the second part first.
68
:I started my entire
career was an accident.
69
:That's the first thing to point out.
70
:Erich Starrett: Sounds like my life.
71
:I love it.
72
:Dr: I was a, I was at a
company called silver pop.
73
:I was doing I was doing training.
74
:So I got hired to be a to train customers,
to be on the customer training team, and
75
:I mostly got hired to do the technical
parts of the training process because
76
:I have a programming background.
77
:So I was handling like the API
training and stuff like that.
78
:Like the nerdier stuff.
79
:And I done that for a couple of
years, went into sales engineering.
80
:Really enjoyed sales engineering.
81
:At some point they decided to hire
their first services salesperson.
82
:So I became the first
services salesperson.
83
:I had a quota that was just services
I had to attach to, new logo deals.
84
:And really leveled up a lot as a
salesperson during that brief period of
85
:time, because when you sell services,
you are literally selling outcomes.
86
:That's it.
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:That's all you can sell.
88
:So you have to really get deep on
understanding what their desired goals
89
:are, why they can't reach those goals
right now, and helping to paint the
90
:picture of what it's gonna look like
once you help them become successful.
91
:We had a newer SVP of sales.
92
:And he announced in a meeting that he
was hiring the head of sales enablement.
93
:I was actually coaching a friend
to maybe apply for that role.
94
:And the hiring manager drew Pronte.
95
:One of the best managers I've ever had.
96
:He came to me and was like, Hey, the CEO
said that you should probably be the guy.
97
:So are you interested?
98
:I applied.
99
:I didn't know what sales enablement was.
100
:I didn't know it was a thing I had
to put together a presentation for
101
:like how I would handle the sales
enablement role at the time I was
102
:getting my PhD in educational psychology.
103
:So I just took what I learned
from working as a sales engineer
104
:and as a services salesperson and
combined it with what I knew about
105
:how psychology of learning works.
106
:And put it together, got the job
and then had to figure it all
107
:out as I went along at the time.
108
:That was 2013 probably
is when I got started.
109
:. Erich Starrett: So that is pre sales
enablement society post Forrester
110
:definition, starting to officially see it
clearly as a position and a function or
111
:else it wouldn't have been posted for you.
112
:Dr: Yeah.
113
:Shortly after I took
the role of silver pop.
114
:It was pretty clear to me.
115
:I didn't know what I was doing it.
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:I remember we had a contract with
Serious Decisions, who is, I think
117
:they're owned by Forrester now.
118
:So at the time it was
just Serious Decisions.
119
:They focused primarily on marketing.
120
:And we had a contract with them and
I had the opportunity to go to a
121
:sales enablement event in Atlanta.
122
:There were other sales enablement
practitioners there, and it was incredible
123
:because there were other people,
some of them knew things I didn't.
124
:Most of us were all trying
to figure out the same thing.
125
:Serious decisions, had
some ideas around it.
126
:It was like super useful.
127
:And I remember leaving that event.
128
:And thinking I think we need
to start something where we
129
:do that on a regular basis.
130
:This was easily the most valuable
thing that I've done in the
131
:last six months, you know?
132
:But I was trying to get a PhD at the time.
133
:I had two small kids, had a full time
job, like I had, a lot of stuff going
134
:on, but I was happy that they were
just other people who were dealing
135
:with the same problems that I was, and
they were trying to find a way forward.
136
:It was useful to meet other people
who are doing the same things.
137
:Most of my mentors were actually people
that I worked directly with though.
138
:I've been fortunate to have had some
really good bosses at Silverpop.
139
:My boss, the head of rail ops
and enablement was Drew Pronte.
140
:And he reported to our SVP of sales,
Todd McCormick, both of those guys,
141
:I think had gone through both PGI and
career builder, if I remember correctly.
142
:And so those were really
good sales organizations.
143
:If you're in Atlanta, there was a
period of time where most of the
144
:people that you knew were probably
part of that diaspora, and so
145
:Erich Starrett: That is
a doctor word, diaspora.
146
:I'm going to have to look
that one up afterwards.
147
:I love it.
148
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: Getting a seat
at the table was probably the
149
:biggest factor in helping me be
successful in sales enablement.
150
:I had bosses who gave me a seat
at the table early on., Todd would
151
:pull us both in and be like, Hey,
here's what I'm seeing with the team.
152
:What do you think's going on here?
153
:And we would look at the data and
we would talk to the management and
154
:we would try to figure out what the
solution was and we would try stuff.
155
:And I didn't understand how things
operated at that strategic level.
156
:Until I got into that role and the fact
that I got to sit there and at first
157
:I didn't provide much value candidly.
158
:I could give them context based
on my experiences in the field,
159
:which I had a lot of, but I didn't
understand the physics of sales, right?
160
:And I learned all those
things from working with them.
161
:And then we were acquired by IBM and
I had the opportunity to see what it
162
:looks like in a much bigger level.
163
:I was part of a business unit that
it's IBM's basically a handful of multi
164
:billion dollar companies all put together.
165
:And I was part of one of those multi
billion dollar companies inside of it.
166
:Our business unit was, and I got to see
how these really big enterprise complex
167
:sales work, how you have to, Enable people
across multiple different continents.
168
:By the time I left, I was responsible
for both internal sales enablement
169
:and partner enablement as well.
170
:And the partner ecosystem is
really important if you're at IBM.
171
:And so you have to really distill down
what those value propositions are for
172
:the different products that you have,
who the personas are from the buyer
173
:perspective, what the challenges are that
they solve to make it clear to everyone.
174
:What they should be looking for and
how to tell the most effective story.
175
:Erich Starrett: Great backstory, what
I just heard you say is you're actually
176
:the first person on the show that has
said, I was doing partner enablement.
177
:We'll get to a minute, the shift from
sales enablement to revenue enablement,
178
:but part of that is encompassing partners
for sure, which I've always seen part
179
:of it and customer service, but you
were doing it all the way back to IBM.
180
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yeah, even in the first
role at silver pop, I had both new and
181
:existing sales under my purview, right?
182
:So I had the new sales team, like the AEs,
the SDRs, the sales engineers, but I also
183
:had the account management team, the CS
184
:And I think it makes a lot of sense,
honestly, when you are in that
185
:position where you've got both,
you New sales and existing sales.
186
:You have the opportunity to
identify and eliminate a lot of the
187
:organizational issues that negatively
affects your customer and that
188
:negatively affect the team as well.
189
:So I like having that opportunity.
190
:Erich Starrett: Agreed.
191
:And in the pre-show, we were talking
a little bit about how important it
192
:is to have either A, failed yourself
in approaches and or B, been the at
193
:a place or walked alongside others
who have been through a failure
194
:convert it to wisdom, and that's
where good enablement comes from.
195
:Through that lens.
196
:It sounds like almost natural
presupposition to do those things that a
197
:room of 100 people were just starting to
think about and I would argue still aren't
198
:being fully executed in enablement today.
199
:What led you there?
200
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: There's a few
things that we could unpack there.
201
:I'll start with the, what led you there?
202
:Like most of everything that I've
learned how to do, first off, when
203
:you talk to anybody who's been
doing enablement for a while, almost
204
:everybody does the same thing.
205
:The reality is there's a handful
of things that work, and we all
206
:make enough mistakes until we
figure out those things that work.
207
:The problem is, I think there's not enough
sharing of best practices, candidly.
208
:That's 1 thing because.
209
:When you figure out what works, you
have other people who are just other
210
:companies, other CROs, other heads of
enablement who are trying to figure out
211
:the same thing, solve the same problems.
212
:And most of them go through
and make the same mistakes that
213
:other people have already made.
214
:So that's a pretty common issue.
215
:There's a second factor here,
though, that I think is interesting.
216
:I think that the quality of sales
enablement as a professional has
217
:gone down pretty dramatically
in the last five years.
218
:In fact, I think the quality of
sales enablement has gone down as
219
:it's become increasingly prominent
because You There's a few reasons.
220
:Number one is I think a lot of heads of
sales know they need sales enablement.
221
:They're hearing from their investors
that they need sales enablement.
222
:But there was a period of time
where I don't think a lot of
223
:them really knew what it meant.
224
:And over again, even now we'll talk
to heads of sales who are looking
225
:to hire a head of sales enablement
or their only sales enablement hire.
226
:And we're like, Hey, what
do you want them focused on?
227
:And they really have one
or two projects in mind.
228
:But then when you ask what you want them
to do after that they're not sure they
229
:have immediate needs of things they want
done, but in an ongoing basis, they're
230
:not quite sure what that should be right.
231
:If the CRO isn't clear about what they
want the head of enablement to do,
232
:and the head of enablement's not going
to be clear about it unless they've
233
:done it before and they know what
they should be focused on and they
234
:can earn that credibility with the CRO
and the rest of the leadership team.
235
:And that's a big, if that requires a
lot of things that you have to have
236
:done in order to be in that position.
237
:The second thing is I think
heads of sales aren't always
238
:great at hiring and enablement.
239
:Ahead of sales probably was an SDR,
probably was an AE, probably was a
240
:manager, was a second line manager, right?
241
:They've done those jobs before and
they've hired for those jobs, probably
242
:dozens of times, sometimes hundreds
of times, they maybe hire two, three
243
:sales and people over the course of a
lifetime, like that's so recognizing
244
:talent can be difficult as well.
245
:And then there's a final factor, which
is I think there's a lot of fluff.
246
:Sales is never easy, but comparatively
there was a period of time in the
247
:mid to late 2010s where there was
a ton of venture capital at play.
248
:So lots of people were hiring,
it was easier to get results.
249
:There was a good economy.
250
:There were a lot of frankly,
SaaS companies who were just all
251
:buying stuff from each other.
252
:And so sales was a lot easier.
253
:And I think there's an entire
generation of people who are in sales
254
:enablement, who didn't have to figure
out how to build a better machine.
255
:They could get away with adding
more people to the machine and
256
:adding revenue by doing that.
257
:And now venture capital
has dried up a lot.
258
:People aren't hiring as much.
259
:There's a much bigger
focus on productivity.
260
:Productivity per rep in particular, in
order to achieve productivity per rep,
261
:you have to build a better machine.
262
:And I think that's the thing that everyone
really needs to be focused on right now.
263
:It means you really need to understand
the market that you're selling to.
264
:It means you really need to
understand where the friction
265
:points are, both for your customers
and for your internal teams.
266
:And you really need to figure out how
you optimize every step in the process.
267
:And that takes a Domain expertise
that takes background knowledge, and
268
:it also takes strong organizational
and communication skills so that
269
:you can affect the change management
that's required to get results.
270
:Erich Starrett: That was phenomenal.
271
:So to read that back a little bit, there's
not enough focus on strategically thinking
272
:about the cross functional revenue engine.
273
:That first position that they're a
are different flavors of enablement
274
:and be that it to be effective.
275
:It needs to be run cross
functionally, and they didn't use
276
:the word but and strategically.
277
:So there's kind of two sides of the coin.
278
:And neither side is in good repair.
279
:Meaning the folks who are hiring for
enablement don't necessarily know what
280
:that role does strategically other
than tactically coming in and doing a
281
:project or two that has a beginning,
middle, end, and is fixing something.
282
:And number two, you don't have the
talent pool that has that ability going
283
:back to chief productivity officer now
that we need productivity per person.
284
:And it's not just.
285
:It's not just throwing
additional heads at it.
286
:Ramping those heads up as quickly as
possible, which is also an element
287
:of productivity, but it's a there's
a lot more strategy in creating more
288
:from less than just bringing in more
so that does that land about right?
289
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yeah..
290
:And I , I feel like I'm dogging
on sales enablement practitioners.
291
:I'm not, I don't think
people are bad necessarily.
292
:I just think that they
didn't have to be good.
293
:So they didn't learn how to do some
of the hard things that you have to
294
:do to really build a better machine.
295
:, I think that two years from now,
the people who are still in sales
296
:enablement will be pretty damn good
at what they do because they will have
297
:had to have figured it out, right?
298
:Erich Starrett: I'm with you.
299
:What I'm hearing is not negativity
per se, it's opportunity.
300
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yes.
301
:That is a great phrasing.
302
:Erich Starrett: Thank you.
303
:There is opportunity here.
304
:One question in your current business,
how do you address the, we'll call it the
305
:buyer side of sales enablement, right?
306
:How do you help your current clients
and maybe that will inform some
307
:folks out there listening who are
CRO CMO, even chief strategy officer.
308
:We've got Tim Reister over at corporate
visions is a CSO with enablement reporting
309
:to him, which is one of the interesting
implementations I've seen of enablement.
310
:How do you get your clients up
to speed to address that need
311
:and harvest that opportunity?
312
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: there's
a couple of things.
313
:When it comes to like the customer
journey and how customers buy and
314
:eliminating friction for them.
315
:One of our most common initial projects
with customers is a customer journey
316
:workshop, because if you haven't
really sat down with all of the major
317
:stakeholders involved internally, And
intentionally designed to process,
318
:you probably have massive gaps in
what we uncover over and over again
319
:is especially during the handoffs,
320
:Everybody thinks somebody else is
doing something and nobody's doing it.
321
:Or they think somebody else
should be doing something and
322
:there's not agreement on that.
323
:Or there's a whole bunch of data
that's needed for one part of
324
:the process that's not created
by the other part of the process.
325
:And so you have these moments
where there's a lack of alignment
326
:or a lack of insight that occurs
throughout the entire process that
327
:negatively affects the customer.
328
:And so you have these situations
where let's say I go to a web form
329
:and I'm reading about these like
value propositions essentially that
330
:can solve the problems that I have.
331
:I fill out the web form
and then I get a response.
332
:And somebody calls me six
times while I'm in meetings.
333
:And finally I pick up and
I'm like, Oh, this is great.
334
:Yes, let's talk.
335
:I would like to solve this problem.
336
:And then I have a conversation and they're
like, what's the problem that you have?
337
:Okay let me ask you some pretty demeaning
questions about whether you're important
338
:enough to It sounds like somebody's
saying are your mommy and daddy home?
339
:And then, they're like, okay, it
sounds like we can definitely help you.
340
:Let me put you on the phone with
somebody else who can help you.
341
:That sucks like now I, like I just filled
out a form Oh, let's schedule something.
342
:Let's go.
343
:Like, why do I have to talk to?
344
:And then you hop on the call with the
AE and let's say the AE does a fantastic
345
:job and they show you a great demo
and they figure out what your projects
346
:problems are and they help you prioritize.
347
:All that stuff and the deal closes and
then you get introduced to somebody else.
348
:And you have to have all the same
damn conversations again, all the same
349
:.
As a buyer.
350
:This is what will really open your eyes.
351
:I spent years as a buyer.
352
:And I was like, this sucks.
353
:This sucks.
354
:This sucks.
355
:Like all the different things that I
felt as a buyer made me a much better
356
:salesperson, but what it was like to
go through those steps in the process.
357
:And so we really pay a lot of attention
to what happens during the transitions.
358
:And a lot of what we focus on, we do these
workshops, Is creating the disagreement
359
:that is required for actual agreement
and creating a safe space where we
360
:can moderate those disagreements and
come to a conclusion that I don't know
361
:if you're familiar with the Patrick
Lencioni stuff, Disagree & Commit.
362
:Like at some point, whoever's is making
the call in the room has to make the call.
363
:There's going to be disagreement,
but everybody understands why that
364
:decision was made and everybody's
committed to walking out and executing.
365
:The steps necessary to bring this
desired customer journey into reality.
366
:It's a workshop typically, right?
367
:Like a two day.
368
:Yeah.
369
:Erich Starrett: A role play on steroids.
370
:It's a flavor of whenever someone comes
to me with a problem, I'm like, great,
371
:bring it, but bring a solution or three,
at least the beginnings of it, it sounds
372
:like that's the same kind of thing you
do in that room is we're not going to
373
:get it perfect, but can everyone nod
their head that this is the path forward.
374
:Back to this idea that there's
opportunity for enablement, How do I?
375
:Sean get up to speed in a way that I can
come in and pick up where you left off
376
:And be that strategic sales enablement
revenue enablement partner in perpetuity.
377
:Is there, what does that look like
other than failing a bunch learning
378
:and, actually trying to meet that
bar of not just ramping up a whole
379
:bunch of people, but taking what I've
got and bringing more productivity.
380
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yeah.
381
:So there's a couple of things we focus on.
382
:Number one, we document
everything that we do and we do.
383
:We do like a playbook playbooks are great.
384
:I understand.
385
:I've written so many playbooks in my life.
386
:Almost somebody reads the playbook, but
it's useful to have it because sometimes
387
:you do have to reference stuff in it.
388
:So the people can just take a
quick look, like a cheat sheet.
389
:This is what I'm supposed to do
at this stage in the process.
390
:This is the way it works.
391
:And if it changes, you have to update it.
392
:So we work on creating governance.
393
:For change, usually when we do
these projects so that there's
394
:a process in place by which
people can actually make changes.
395
:The second thing, and this is actually
the most important thing is we
396
:build as much as possible, the best
practices directly into the process.
397
:So that as you execute the
process, you are actually
398
:improving the process as well.
399
:And it takes time to do that,
but it's really important.
400
:The third thing is we involve
the managers and the reps in the
401
:creation of the processes themselves.
402
:This is very often what happens is you
have these top down approaches to a
403
:sales process or a top down approach
to messaging or a top down approach
404
:to negotiation or skill development
or whatever you want it to be, right?
405
:And it falls flat.
406
:It falls flat for a couple of reasons.
407
:Number one, When you do it top down,
a lot of times you don't actually
408
:have the tactical information you
need from the field to make good
409
:decisions, to design a good solution.
410
:In fact, a lot of times you haven't
correctly framed the problem.
411
:And if you haven't correctly framed
the problem, you're never going
412
:to find the right solution, right?
413
:So we make sure we involve managers
and reps in the problem framing and
414
:in the solution process, because
that's going to give us a much better
415
:picture of what's actually happening
and what the real problems are.
416
:It's going to give us
a much better solution.
417
:Plus.
418
:When it's time to roll that
solution out, we've already
419
:had all the holes poked in it.
420
:We spent weeks having meetings
where people were poking holes and
421
:we're iterating and we're iterating.
422
:So it's a really good product that
those people are now going to champion.
423
:Those people help design it.
424
:If you get the right people in the room,
you've got really powerful champions
425
:who can go out and get other people.
426
:To adopt it, the managers are
already aware of what's going
427
:on because they help shape it.
428
:Plus we do extensive manager training
before we ever roll anything else out.
429
:And then we do manager
reinforcement training.
430
:So we create these methods, these avenues
for reinforcement as part of the project.
431
:So that for the next month or
quarter, there's going to be
432
:people who are actually working to
drive adoption of those changes.
433
:And the reality is the project
itself, the intervention itself is
434
:usually about one fifth of the amount
of time it takes to get results.
435
:The other four fifths is all the stuff
you do before the project and all the
436
:stuff you do after the projects to create
alignment, to get buy in, to design
437
:a really effective intervention, and
then to actually do the reinforcement
438
:that's required to drive real change.
439
:Erich Starrett: We've got a listening
audience here of enablement practitioners.
440
:Is it a, "and we recommend getting a sales
enablement professional" at the end of
441
:that if they don't have someone on staff.
442
:Or is it a, pretty much we've given
you the engine you need to maintain,
443
:just keep doing what you're doing.
444
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: A lot of
our customers have existing
445
:sales enablement staff, right?
446
:It's just, two or three.
447
:And for this project, you need,
three or four more for six months,
448
:like that's the reality is there's
certain pieces of infrastructure that
449
:are really heavy to put in place.
450
:Or you need to move quickly to get
these changes in place and your team
451
:doesn't have the bandwidth to do it.
452
:Like those are the most common
situations we get involved in.
453
:If we are working with someone who
doesn't have sales enablement at all,
454
:usually there's a chief of staff or
a head of rev ops, or somebody who is
455
:a manager who we use as our primary
point of contact, who's the change
456
:agent internally in those situations.
457
:But we pretty much always recommend that
they hire someone to own an enablement
458
:over the long term, because if nobody
owns it, it's not going to get done.
459
:Erich Starrett: Outstanding.
460
:And therein lies, I think the
answer to my question, which is.
461
:Hey everybody out there in enablement
land if you feel woefully unequipped to
462
:do all of those things that dr Fowler
is sharing bring on RevenueReady because
463
:you're going to be part Seriously,
you're going to be part of that team
464
:that the best way to get trained is to
walk alongside He and his advisors at
465
:revenue ready and learn alongside them.
466
:And then you do that in perpetuity, right?
467
:That would be the answer.
468
:There's not a secret place to go off and
study or at least currently a place to go
469
:and interact and get those best practices.
470
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: I think you should
design our sales pitch, Erich!
471
:Yeah.
472
:This is actually an important
thing to talk about though,
473
:because I've been in this situation
before as a head of enablement.
474
:It's hard to get headcount.
475
:It is very hard to get headcount, but
the reality is your boss wants results.
476
:Like the company needs results.
477
:And one of the things that I think
a lot of companies are realizing
478
:right now is because things
are, I've gotten harder to sell.
479
:" Your ability to thrive as
a company depends directly
480
:on your ability to change.
481
:To effectively manage change.
482
:The companies that make it are the
ones who can accommodate the changes
483
:as they evolve in the market, they
have change management functions
484
:built in to their strategy and that's
what sales enablement really is.
485
:Sales enablement is the change
management arm of revenue."
486
:That's what it is.
487
:And if you don't realize that you're
never going to hire the right people.
488
:You're never going to give them
the seat at the table they need.
489
:But if you do realize that, then
whenever you have to change pricing or
490
:your competition got better or whatever
it is you have to accommodate, you've
491
:got this ability to evolve quickly
and rapidly and roll with the punches.
492
:Erich Starrett: Sean, you just took
the words right out of my mouth.
493
:Sales enablement, revenue
enablement is the change
494
:management of the revenue engine.
495
:What you and your team come in and
do, what a good solid RevOps team does
496
:from the ground up, but Hillary Headlee
over at Insight Partners, and informed
497
:by her having run, at zoom, both
rev ops and sales enablement, right?
498
:And now she's doing it
for five, 700 companies.
499
:That's what good looks like.
500
:It's that incubated in a well
thought out strategic cross
501
:functional engine where all the
seats of the table are represented.
502
:And then having an enablement
professional who can take that.
503
:Be a change manager and be the
bidirectional voice of that entire
504
:engine out to sales out to now partners
and to customer service and back in.
505
:And that's the important part.
506
:And a lot of times that back
end part's not happening.
507
:And another opportunity I see,
and I'd love to hear your thoughts
508
:for Sales or revenue enablement
is getting in the trenches, right?
509
:So you can be the voice of sales and
the customer and bring that back in
510
:and now you're really cooking, right?
511
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: It's nice to be in the
industry for a while because you meet
512
:a lot of people and I end up talking
to a lot of like people who are newer
513
:in their careers or like mid career.
514
:Who are getting their first kind
of, I'm the only enablement person
515
:opportunity is where I'm the first
head of enablement opportunities.
516
:And something they ask a lot is what
should I have this interview with the
517
:CRO, it's my last interview tomorrow
what do you think I should focus on?
518
:And the thing I always say is the
first 90 days, like really, you really
519
:need to think through what you're
going to do in your first 90 days.
520
:How are you going to
structure your first 90 days?
521
:And one of the things that I've always
focused on whenever I've joined a company
522
:is I need to being in the top 10 sales
reps, I need to learn enough that if I
523
:need to go sell this, I can go sell it.
524
:I understand the market.
525
:I understand the product.
526
:I understand the problems solve.
527
:I the competition does.
528
:Cause if you can't do that, why should
anybody listen to what you have to say?
529
:That's just the reality.
530
:Like you need to be able to go have the,
you don't have to be the best, right?
531
:But you should probably be in the top
10 to 15 percent if you had to be.
532
:Erich Starrett: And back to role play
man If you can legit spar with the
533
:top 10 of the company You're going
to provide such an amazing service,
534
:it's getting out on the court with
those better than you, making you
535
:better and you making them better.
536
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: And if they have a Gong
or a SalesLoft or a Clari I guess Chorus
537
:Clari, whatever, if they have that you
have no excuse not to be able to do that.
538
:That's straight up.
539
:Like you can sit there and listen to
the calls that the best sales reps made.
540
:You can listen to the
calls that people wash.
541
:You can listen to the calls where you
got the, you can listen to all that.
542
:And if you do two a day for a month,
you can go a long way towards really
543
:understanding what works and what doesn't.
544
:Erich Starrett: Awesome sean.
545
:Let's shift to the move from sales
enablement to revenue enablement You
546
:I'm curious what that means to you.
547
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: First thing is I don't
know how much I care about the name change
548
:because I think sometimes people just
use different words to sound different.
549
:I do like the idea of sales enablement
truly being a revenue enablement.
550
:But there's a good way and a
bad way for that to work out.
551
:The good way is that they
actually have a seat at the table.
552
:They're involved in the diagnosis
of the problems and coming up with a
553
:strategy and frankly, prioritization.
554
:Prioritization is really one of the
keys to success in enablement in that
555
:they can actually help solve straight
up revenue problems, not just sales
556
:problems, but it means that you need
to be resourced so that you have people
557
:aligned to both of those leaders.
558
:If there are separate leaders,
that's super important to me.
559
:The bad way is it just slowly
evolves into L and D I don't
560
:have anything against L and D.
561
:I started my career in L and D.
562
:But that's not what sales enablement is.
563
:That's not what revenue
enablement should be.
564
:And I see a lot of companies where it's
revenue enablement in name, but it's
565
:glorified L and D and I don't think
that's the best use of enablement.
566
:Erich Starrett: and back to
those founding flavors, they're
567
:stuck in talent development only
and not thinking strategically?
568
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: A lot of times
they don't have the domain expertise
569
:to help shape the conversation
either in that situation.
570
:You're just creating a bunch of trainings
that nobody ever takes or they take
571
:it while they do their expenses, like
that's not going to move the needle.
572
:Cool.
573
:Erich Starrett: Wrapping up here.
574
:I would love to hear Dr.
575
:Sean Fowler the future.
576
:Give us, we'll give you the final word.
577
:Where are we headed?
578
:You mentioned earlier that you can
see over the next couple years,
579
:those who are really embodying
this spirit of a cross functional
580
:sales or revenue enablement role.
581
:What do you see about the future?
582
:What are those opportunities
for our listening audience?
583
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: I would hesitate
to forecast any farther than three
584
:or four years out, honestly, but
585
:I think there's increasing recognition
of the role of enablement in change
586
:management and increasing recognition
of the need for an explicit change
587
:managing function in organizations.
588
:So I think at least in more
successful companies, that's what what
589
:enablements going to be seen as right?
590
:I think one of the things that's going
to incorporate is increased focus on
591
:frontline managers on both the new
and existing sales side of the house,
592
:because the reality is everything lives
or dies for the frontline manager.
593
:If the frontline manager cannot
effectively execute the change, or if
594
:they're not bought in, or if they don't
understand clearly why they're doing what
595
:they're doing and how it aligns with the
company's strategy, it's not going to work
596
:and you're literally wasting your time.
597
:You're wasting everyone's time to try
to do anything unless they're bought
598
:in and equipped to be successful.
599
:I think people are beginning to see
that and I think there's going to be
600
:a shift, frankly, from the field to
frontline managers in terms of resources.
601
:Those are the two biggest things
I think are going to happen.
602
:Erich Starrett: I think AI is going
to evolve and facilitate some things.
603
:I know there's a lot of AI
coaching and stuff like that.
604
:I don't love it.
605
:Candidly, but I think the power
of artificial intelligence to comb
606
:through, for instance, the thousands
of minutes that are produced on a
607
:weekly basis in gong or sales loft or
whatever, and distill that down into
608
:insights or into moments that everyone
should take notice of can be really
609
:powerful when it comes to training,
coaching, and identifying what works
610
:great place to land, Sean.
611
:. Thanks for all that you've done
for the profession, for Atlanta
612
:for that matter specifically.
613
:Maybe we can even get you out to a
Revenue Enablement Society meeting
614
:here and have you wax poetic on
some of these things and help people
615
:better understand the opportunity.
616
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: Only if
there's beer afterward.
617
:Erich Starrett: Yeah, absolutely.
618
:For sure.
619
:That wouldn't be face to face
without a beer at the bar.
620
:Any final words you'd like to share,
Sean, on your way out the door
621
:here in the orchestrate section?
622
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: This was just wonderful.
623
:It was a fantastic opportunity
to talk to you, Eric.
624
:I really enjoyed it.
625
:Erich Starrett: you too, man.
626
:Great to see your face.
627
:And I'm so excited for our listening
audience to benefit from this.
628
:Appreciate your time
and we'll see you soon
629
:Dr. Shawn Fowler: Thanks a lot, man.
630
:Take care.
