“On paper, six or seven competitive builders trying to run one organisation together makes no sense.”

In this episode, we sit down with Bec Kempster, the brilliant Chief Operating Officer (COO) of the Sustainable Builders Alliance (SBA), to talk about the messy, necessary business of upgrading the Australian construction sector. Recording from Matt’s newly completed Grand Designs home, we strip back the hype and discuss how the SBA transitioned from a grassroots cause into a highly structured, professional association shaking up national building standards.

Bec shares insights from her eclectic background. Spanning commerce degrees, corporate head office fit-outs, and co-founding business coaching systems for architects, to reveal how the SBA is systematically tackling the biggest bottlenecks in the trade. We break down the SBA’s Theory of Change, detailing their current work with TAFEs to build localised trade courses, and their mission to establish crystal-clear definitions for high-performance builds so the market can finally stomp out greenwashing.

We also take a look at the data from the SBA's newly released State of the Market report. Bec details the hidden category of "transitioning builders". These are tradespeople who build above code but fail to market it, and drops the statistical proof that builders who explicitly sell health, comfort, and performance secure nearly double the forward pipeline of their competitors.

We chat about the reality of custom build costs, volume builder challenges, and why vulnerability and education are a builder's best defence against insolvency in a volatile economy.

Whether you are a seasoned builder, an architect looking for better site execution, or a transitioning tradie ready to stop faking it, this episode delivers raw, unfiltered site-level truths.

Make sure to listen through to the end to grab your 15% SBA membership discount code!

4. CHAPTER MARKERS

00:00:Introduction

01:32: Meet Bec Kempster: Managing Six Builders

05:05: From Nightclubs to Architect Coaching: Bec’s Journey

09:44: The Business of Architecture vs. The Building Trade

13:16: Leaving the Past & Aligning with Sustainability

21:20: The Material Lifespan & Circular Economy

22:36: Unpacking the Five Pillars of the Theory of Change

23:51: TAFE Collaborations with Melbourne Polytechnic

28:41: Industry Collaborations: From Renew to Master Builders

30:10: Changing the Name? Builders Alliance vs. Building Alliance

34:49: Overcoming the Industry’s Lack of Education

39:06: Volume Builders & The Impact of 7-Star Verification

40:04: State of the Market Report: The Transitioning Builder

41:41: Documenting the Journey: Content Strategies for Tradies

48:07: High Performance vs. Custom Build Realities

49:45: The Real Cost of Matthew’s Grand Designs House

51:55: Celebrating Social Traders Certification

LINKS:

Our Sponsors:

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Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram: @sanctumhomes

Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt:

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

Proclima Sponsor

We're actually at our official, uh- Proclima house … think house

podcast studio, uh, which Matt has generously donated for today.

We're actually recording at Matthew's own home.

Um- It's

got Proclima everywhere I think- It's like a walking Proclima house.

There was a, I think there's a, I've never actually watched it, but there's

a show on, um, ABC called Grand Designs.

Yeah.

Weren't you on that?

Yeah, yeah.

So kind of a big deal now.

Yeah, big deal.

Um, today we are joined very special guest, and someone who I've got to

know very well over the last couple of years, and it's Bec Kempster.

Hamish's boss.

Yeah, I guess so.

My- You could look at it as Hamish is my boss too.

Yeah, well, it's just, yeah.

But Bec, um, is our COO, and has been for the

last- Who's

our CEO?

SBA.

Yeah.

Sustainable Builds Alliance CEO.

COO.

Um, and we've been wanting to get Bec on for a while and, um, I

think today just the stars aligned.

Uh, and I know you wanted to come and have a look at Matt's house as well.

I haven't given you a tour yet.

So we'll, we'll definitely do that.

I was out here, uh, showing some of my clients through, and made it very clear

that, um, Shoreham was far too far for Matt to travel, so they could still- Yeah

they should still stick with Sanctum Homes as the builder.

Yeah.

Uh, but I must admit, Matt- I did get

a message from a client then

… I, I will go on the record as saying what I'm seeing here, even though I was

being a bit of a dick before saying there was like- … a couple of little defects

here and there, it is pretty impressive.

Like, what you're seeing- I'm super happy … what you're seeing on TV is

actually what you see in real life, so.

And you both got T-shirts on inside, and it's, outside it's six degrees right now.

Oh, it's- Yeah … freezing.

And it's- Very pleasant this morning … it's

9:34

in the morning.

Freezing.

Um,

so could, can we get SBA, I wanna just jump before I get to you,

Bec, directors, who are they?

Uh, so there's six of us.

So there's myself, there is Jeremy Spencer from Positive Footprints, Simon from

Sustainable Homes Melbourne, there is Michael Lim from Michael Lim Builders, um-

Brian

… Brian Guinan, who's our, uh, Perth correspondent.

Um- Did I say Jesse?

No.

Jesse from G Luxe.

Jesse from G Luxe and myself.

And Bec, who's your favorite of all of them?

Hang on, there's one

more.

There's one more.

No.

Who's your favorite?

That's, that's

just- Who's my favorite?

Yeah.

So okay, who gives you the most headaches?

Who gives me the most headaches?

Um, oh.

Probably the person that gives me the most joy as well.

Hamish.

Uh,

I certainly make life interesting.

My wife's been telling me that for the last- If it's anything

like this podcast- … 20-plus years … it's just millions and millions of ideas.

It's millions of ideas.

Yeah.

But really great ideas.

Yeah, no, this is why we never get shit done.

But I think, look, I, I think what, what Bec…

You know, I, I know who I am.

Like, I'm, I'm a, I'm a, I'm… Ideas coming out of left, right, and center.

Like, what you're really amazing, or what, what one of your biggest

strength is actually grabbing it and actually putting- Putting it in the bin.

Put- putting some in the bin.

But also grabbing it and actually turning them into something.

'Cause like I've got a thousand of these ideas.

You know, today's event is one example, you know?

I knew in my heart that retrofitting was such an important topic for us to discuss,

and is gonna play such a big role in like our goals for net zero moving forward.

Uh, and I guess your ability to then put it into like a logical

layout with me throwing a few other ideas in there is incredible.

But so we're, we're… And I speak on behalf of all the directors, we're

really fortunate to have you on.

But before we go down the SBX-

Turning it into something, 'cause like, can I jump in here?

You said you're turning into something.

What have you, like, 'cause you've been on two years now?

No.

Uh, 18 months.

18 months.

Yeah.

Two years, 18 months is the same thing.

Like, like- It's

a lot you can do in six months

… so sitting from the back end, watching from the outside, um,

I've seen huge growth, I'd say in specifically like the last 12 months.

Like, I would imagine the first few months would have been just like working

it out, and then like, "All right, now let's, this is the plan forward."

I think the biggest, the biggest shift has actually been the professionalism.

Like going from, um, six directors All making decisions on the one

topic to actually splitting up into departments, and then you, I guess,

being the conduit between all of those different departments, and some of

us sitting on multiple departments, but not feeling the pressure on

having to make all the decisions, has been probably the biggest…

F- Uh, uh, one, our ability to grow, 'cause it's more scalable.

But two, not feeling weighed down with all the other little decisions

that don't necessarily impact me or, or, if I'm being honest, things

that don't necessarily interest me.

Um, and that's probably been the, I think the biggest opportunity for us to grow.

Before we jump into SBA, though, I wanna hear a bit more about you, Bec.

So take us back as far as you wanna take us.

But I'm-

Days of Our Lives.

Is that the soap on the TV?

I'm curious- No, what's, what's the old show they used to sit and

they used to bring out all their friends from their- … childhood?

Oh, yeah, don't tell Bec, we've got someone waiting

in the next room there too.

Yeah, Bec, t- tell us who you are and, um, you know, your time before SBA.

And then, and then the reasons why, you know, SBA then became

something that was appealing to you.

Yeah, sure.

So I have probably quite, what you'd describe as a colored career.

I've done multiple different things.

I, um, look, when I was at school, I was, like, heart intent on being a stockbroker.

Um- … that was the vision.

I was gonna go off and study finance and commerce and be a stockbroker.

And, uh, went off and, and did commerce at Melbourne University, and then

realized that a lot of what you study is based on theory, and that those

theories aren't embedded in reality.

For example, one of those core assumptions that's made in economics

is that people behave rationally.

Yeah.

So for me, I was like, "Mm, okay."

Just look in the world right now.

Exactly.

So that, that, that was probably the great undoing.

But having a commerce, uh, degree certainly holds you in good

stead when you go out into the marketplace and try and get jobs.

So I finished that degree, went overseas, uh, lived in Ireland for a

while, and had a great time over there.

Um, had an opportunity- Whereabouts, whereabouts

in Ireland were

you?

I was in Dublin.

Dublin.

So, yeah, traveled around Europe and did all that fun stuff that

you do when you're in your 20s.

It's an interesting place to end up

in.

Most people go to, like, London or, like, Paris or New York.

Lucy was in Ireland for a bit.

Really?

Yeah, she had a great time.

Out, out, not in Dublin, but sort of out more in the countryside.

She said it was incredible.

Yeah.

My, uh-

Why?

Like it-

… boyfriend at the time had a passport, so he said, "Where do you wanna go?

Ireland or England?" And I looked at the paperwork for both, and it

was four pages for Ireland and it was, like, 10 pages for England.

Yeah.

And I said, "Let's go to Ireland." So, uh- Path of least resistance,

yep … that's how we ended up

there.

Um, and then, yeah, got offered an, an opportunity to go back there, uh,

to continue working for a company I was working for that, uh, went

Reservations International, and they were doing something pretty new.

They had a booking engine for booking hostels for, uh, backpackers.

It was pretty exciting stuff.

Ended up, uh, getting a job when I got back here in a nightclub, though,

in Melbourne, and ended up- Revolver?

No, it wasn't Revolting.

No.

It was, uh, it was Billboard Nightclub, actually.

Oh.

Billboard.

It's the other one.

That's the other one.

Like a 50/50.

That's the, that's the other one,

yeah.

So, uh, yeah.

I've got

some stories about Billboard.

Do, wait, so just this-

It probably is not appropriate for this

podcast … what year were you there?

Uh, so it would've been, uh, probably 2003 to 2005.

So working

backwards now from Hamish's age, he's probably lining up at the

door while you're working there.

Probably was.

Probably.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, 2003, I was overseas, but before that, and then after when I got

home- Yeah … yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Definitely, yep.

So did marketing and events for there, and then, um, thought it was

probably time to grow up a little bit.

Went and got a, a job for a PR agency.

Uh, then got into retail fit-outs from there, 'cause I was doing a

lot of retail fit-outs for Bonds and Sheridan and all, all the like.

Yeah.

Um, doing in-store concepts and things like that.

Then decided to go and take that more seriously.

Got a job at Coles, um, and that was working on the head

office fit-outs in there,

so talking to commercial real- So you had your own business, uh,

your own business at one point?

Was this before?

Did have my own business, yeah.

So that was much later on, so.

Right, okay, yeah.

Yeah.

So retail fit-outs was, you know, like kinda 2000-ish, early-ish 2000s.

Yeah,

mid-2000s.

Yeah.

It's something I've bounced around between marketing and, uh, retail fit-outs.

Yep.

So did a lot of digital, uh, work as well.

And then, um, yeah, got this opportunity after I had my, um, daughter.

Did a couple of different things.

Had a, an association I was involved in focused on emerging tech,

uh, which was pretty exciting.

Got me pretty close to government, uh, you know, corporates, all that sort of

thing, learning some interesting stuff.

And then, uh, opportunity came up to start my own, or co-found a business, uh,

and that was around educating architects on how to run their business, you know?

What was

that

called?

It was called ArchiBiz.

ArchiBiz.

Yeah.

That still around?

Uh, yes, it is still around.

I left in 2023, though.

So like a, like a architect coach.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah, so we were looking at how to do that on scale.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah,

right.

So, um, h- Uh, maybe I'll let Matt ask that question 'cause he

doesn't mind annoying architects.

I was about to say, like, how, how was that, um-

I think there's a lot that should have signed up to it

… h- yeah, how was that taken up?

Uh, look, it, the timing was around COVID.

Okay.

So it was kind of silver lining.

Probably the- I'm a silver lining person … probably the right

time to do it, though.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

People were looking for help.

Yeah.

Um, I guess I did question it.

Uh, you know, we were… I worked, so I co-founded the

business with a business coach.

Yeah.

And we were looking at niching down into specializing in a particular

industry, and he had a few architects as clients at the time.

So we held a dinner with eight architects, and the first question

we asked, we never got to any of the other questions in the dinner.

The first one was, um, "What's the value of architecture?" And

no one at that table, none of the architects could answer that.

And we went, "Okay, well- This

is the whole podcast … here's an opportunity." Yeah.

So builders are very open about getting coaching and help, and-

This is kind of what, this is where I was going.

Yeah,

so- I feel like, and maybe I'm in my bubble, so- sorry to interrupt.

In my bubble, I feel like everyone that I talk to as a builder is

all about educating themselves.

But I'm, I'm part of this podcast, I'm part of SBA, like, you know, interactions

I have on social media, Future Builder.

I'm surrounded by people wanting to better themselves all the

time, and I, and I don't…

And I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I don't see the same kind of uptake

from the architect side of things.

No.

However, we seem to have a lot of architects come along to our SBA stuff-

Yeah … which was a market that we weren't, that we didn't see as, like,

one of our tier one, um, mar- like, tier one, um, target markets, but it's sort of

almost becoming on par with the builders.

Hold

that thought with the market- Yeah … because I want to

get to that in the future.

Yeah.

But I, I do wanna keep going with the architect for a second because

I just feel like- There's, what?

There's only a small percentage of homes are designed by architects.

Is that correct?

Yes.

It's, like, tiny.

Yes, it

is.

And I feel so many people spend their time complaining about that figure, but

not actively doing anything about it.

Yeah, there, yes and no.

Look, I think there are, um, some great people doing some amazing work pushing

architecture out there and, and the importance of its role and, you know,

look at what's going on with, um, the architectural board here in Victoria and,

you know, the moves to try and wind them up and incorporate them, uh, elsewhere.

So there, there is a bit of advocacy and some people with the really, really

loud voices trying to protect that going on, which is really important.

Um, I think maybe architects spend a lot of time investing in their

education- Yeah … as far as, you know, they spend so long at uni.

It's a good point.

And then it's really around- Good point

the CPD side of things, and rather than spending that time working on their

own business, it's around, you know, more the compliance piece and more-

Actually- … how to do architecture

better … it's a really good point, 'cause I think builders are on the

flip side of that- Yeah … 'cause we're- Rule breakers … well,

not necessarily, but we f- I guess the, the normal pathway is finish school, maybe

not even finish school, get straight into a trade, and you're on the tools learning.

Yeah.

And then you go, "Oh, should I be able to educate myself?" So that kind of

comes a bit later, whereas architects is more front-loaded when it comes

to five, six years of education.

Watch

your

hand

in

front of the camera

as well.

So, um, yeah, I guess that does make sense in a way.

Yeah, and I think, uh, yeah, and I think with, so you're a tradie,

you're on site, you're typically around people who, uh, I don't know, not the…

all walks of life, where I think you're, you're-

Well, just, I just don't think it comes naturally.

You're pr- Like, if you look at someone who's attracted to being on

site and working with their hands, I don't necessarily think that same

person is comfortable being in a

classroom.

But, but architects are probably dealing with the more, um, sheltered form of

lifestyle, where they're, you've got to be quite academic to get into a degree.

Most likely you've come from a- It's a different personality

… pretty good private school.

So the people- Different personality … that you're

dealing with- Yeah … are also-

Yeah

… very, very different.

And most of the time when you go design for a house, the people

you're designing for also have money.

So you never really- But maybe-

seeing it from a wider lens, I feel.

I don't want to go too far down the architect builder thing, but

maybe that's why it works, though.

'Cause maybe, like, if you, if, if the same person existed as a

builder and the same person existed as an architect, would that work?

Like, maybe bringing these, their differences and personality together

is actually what makes it work.

But the good ones do that.

Yeah.

Um- So anyway, after that, what happened after the, the business?

Is this when you got involved in SBA?

Uh, no.

I, so I left quite suddenly, left the business.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, which I was, wasn't something I was expecting at all.

Um, you know, just, I guess that happens in business,

particularly when you've got- Yeah

a business partner.

Um, if you're not aligned and not on the same page, then things

will eventually come to a head.

That was a pretty big lesson for me.

You know, things had gone along pretty rosy for a long time, five years, and-

Boom

… um, didn't probably make those check-ins to check that we were

aligned on where we wanted to go, when, you know, had opportunities

for funding and things like that.

And that's where- Third-party influencers start to-

Yeah, okay

… really question your motivation and what you're there for, and, and

things sort of started to fall apart.

Um, so yeah, I wasn't, you know, I saw Archie Bears as my future.

That was everything I'd sort of hoped for and what I was focused on.

And to walk away from that, I was kinda like, "Oh, okay.

What am I gonna do now?" And I had spent a lot of time saying yes to opportunities

in my life, um, which has presented me with some, some great things, and I s- I

said, "Okay, I'm not gonna do that again.

I'm actually gonna stop and think, what is it that I really wanna do?" And for

me, I knew it was focusing on addressing global warming and the role, all the

skills I had developed over my career, how can I use these to actually, um, address

this big issue that we're all facing?

And so I went and got some short-term work back in at Coles, putting in smart gates.

Yeah.

A pretty intense project.

And, um, meanwhile, I was studying my cert four in environmental sustainability

management and starting to have conversations with people around how I

made that transition into sustainability.

Yeah, okay.

And then so your first job into sustainability was SBA?

Yeah, that's

right.

Okay.

So remember when Hamish was saying that they're gonna start looking

to hire someone full-time or part-time or come on and help,

what, how did you come across this?

Uh, so I found the job on the, the, uh, Ethical Jobs website, and I think it

was about to close, the application.

It was, it was literally, like Bec, I mean, I, uh, we can speak to this now.

Literally, I think we'd, we'd almost made a decision.

Yeah.

I- And, and-

On someone else?

Yep.

Oh, wow.

And then, uh, Bec came in, and I reckon within 30 seconds of watching her video,

I'm like, "Decision made." And I think it was just unanimous across the board.

Wow.

At last.

And, and I was very, very Hamish, typical Hamish fashion- … just like, "She'll do.

He- he'll do.

Fi- yep, fine, just hire.

Let's just move forward." And then all, next minute, Simon kept saying,

"No, we're gonna run the process.

Run the process." And then yours came through, and we're just like- Okay.

Thanks, Simon.

Yeah.

Thanks, Simon.

Yeah.

So y- you start, and when you first come into SBA, what were your thoughts?

Like were you…

Um, yeah, look, I was, I guess my trepidation was around working

for six or seven at the time business owners, directors who

all had their own businesses.

And run 'em completely different.

Yeah.

On paper, that makes no fucking sense.

No,

it doesn't.

It absolutely doesn't.

So I was kind of like, ooh, and how s- and what, what are the dynamics like between

all of those guys- Yeah … as well?

So for me, I was like, "Okay, this could be really interesting." But

the opportunity- It's like a TV

show.

The opportunity was huge, and as soon as I read the job ad, I went, "Oh, this is it."

Yeah.

"This is, this is what I want to do." They actually need

help.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We, we definitely did help.

I actually think there was, there was… I think I've talked about this before.

There was a moment in one of our first planning, uh, meetings when Simon and

I were kind of, we're having a robust conversation across the table from each

other, and I think you turned around and said, "Oh, is this gonna be a problem?"

And I think Simon and I looked at each other and went, "No,

this is just what we do." Yeah.

And I think, I, I, and I would like to think that that's a good example of

the respect that exists between all the directors, and the fact that it's always

been much bigger than in- the individual.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, I I've, I'm seeing from the outside, like it's not personal, like

you guys all want the same outcome.

Yeah.

And so you all have an opinion on how you can get there, and the, I'm assuming

there's times that you've had to give up on something, Bec or Hamish, or like, it-

it's, and you might be, you might think your idea's the best, but the other six

people in the room disagree with you.

It's

been one of the most- Yeah

humbling experiences that I've been in, 'cause I've always been

the master of my own destiny.

And it's actually, it's, it's made, I think it's made me be a

better business person because it's actually made me listen more

Yeah, look, I, I think, you know, just to, um, resolve that initial thought

that I had had and that trepidation, it was, uh, yeah, the relationship that

you all have with each other is really impressive and very, very respectful.

And I think, you know, particularly over the last 12 months- Mm … as evidenced

by the planning day we had really recently, or the couple of planning days,

um, you g- you guys do an amazing job.

And everyone respects, you know, when a decision is made, and it's time to move

on, and is really comfortable voicing how they feel and what they want to

see happen, and that sort of thing.

So

planning day, good introduction to my next question.

What's the whole goal of SBA?

And you shut up for a second, Aaron.

Like, what, like, what is, what is… What does success look like?

Yeah, so it's a great question you ask, Matt, and, and it's really

exciting to be able to share that we've got some great clarity around that.

For us, it's around making, uh, net zero sustainable homes mainstream.

That's the big-

So what does that mean?

… lofty goal.

For the average person, net zero, fancy word, Arts.

Like, that's, it's, you see it everywhere.

What does it mean?

Producing more energy than it's using.

Correct.

Yeah.

So why not just whack on a ton of solar and build the most efficient house?

But

the, but the, and this is the problem.

There's not a huge amount of clarity around, um, what a high-performance

home is or what a net zero home is.

So

this is where, this is the ga- Pas- Passive house

is very-

This is what I'm getting at.

Your, your, you, I'm, from my per- perspective, I'm hoping you guys can set

a definition so people go, "That's it."

We're cur- We, yeah.

Yeah.

I, I feel, I feel we're, I feel we're pretty close.

Um, and I don't know how much we can talk about, like, the theory of

change work that we've been doing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, we can talk about

that.

But

it's also marketing.

I know we spoke off air about marketing and what- Yeah

something you'll get to in a, in a second.

But y- you're kind of, the words that you decide to work with are

very hard to pick and, like, 'cause they can make up a whole… They,

they can be quickly greenwashed, or they can be quickly overused,

or you, it could be misinterpreted.

Like, so you're at a really, a point where you're, you're defining

the future, but you've kind of got to look 20 years ahead to-

Well, I think- Yeah

one, one of the things we discussed at the planning days was the, and

I think I was pretty vocal about it, is we need to own these terms.

Like, Sustainable Builders Alliance, like, needs to- own the terms net

zero home, or own the term, you know, um, high-performance home.

Like, we, we wanna create a definition that everyone can then work to.

'Cause then it gives more clarity.

'Cause, you know, everyone's putting building wrap on their homes now and

putting a ventilated cavity and going, and saying, "Oh, look at this high-performance

renovation that I'm doing." Like,

okay.

Yeah.

And you're

now just building to code in Victoria.

Yeah.

Yeah, but this is what I'm saying.

And, and I'm not saying that that stuff is not good, but I, I, I guess

one of my personal goals would be just to create some real clear definitions

around what that actually means.

Like, I think-

So in a perfect world, you guys don't exist in 20 years.

Yeah.

Th- this actually was- Yeah … one of the things that came up- Absolutely, yeah

in the planning meeting, that we- … we, we just make ourselves redundant.

Need to pivot pretty soon.

Yeah, the, the Normal

Building Alliance.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think, you know, when you talk about, um, you know, just

putting a whole bunch of solar on the roof, yeah, sure, you can do that.

But what's the home made of?

Have you considered the material choices that you're making and the

impact on biodiversity and health and all those sorts of things?

Like, there's so many elements that make it up.

It's doing the best you

can, and that's what I've learned.

Yep.

But I think what, what we're trying to do is put some context around it.

So we're, you know, we're using that, uh, roadmap that Jeremy's created,

and then creating definitions around all of those different stages.

And it is appliance choices.

It is, it is energy generation.

It is mindful materials.

I mean, I'm… I would really like to then push to what exists

before that home that was there.

'Cause there was already something in this block where we're sitting right now.

Yep.

And then what happened to the material that was there?

Probably firewood.

No, I know what happened to it.

Yeah.

It was, it was actually, it was actually, it actually,

this one here, we sent it off.

They're filming it.

They filmed a documentary.

I don't even know if I've said this.

They ac- 'cause I prob- wasn't really allowed to.

Um, they filmed a documentary with the dem- demolishing of the existing

shed, and all the, every material was taken away to be repurposed.

Great.

Wow.

I don't know whatever happened to the documentary, but- But

this, this is the stuff that we wanna encourage.

Because, you know, e- everyone kinda draws a line in the sand and says, "All right,

well, we're building, and everything from that point onwards we gotta be

conscious about." But there is… And this is part of the reason why I think

today's event that we're hosting is sold out and it's gonna be such a success,

is we have existing building stock there that also needs to be retained.

But building's already hard enough.

Like, why worry about this stuff?

Well, it's important.

I think, you know, circularity too is super- Yeah … important here

in Australia, where, what, less than 4% of materials are reused.

In Europe it's double that, so.

I know.

The, and the EPA just, like, increased tip fees so they could try deter people,

but that's just not solving the problem, because people just charge more.

People charge more for the disposal of goods, so.

So do we, w- I touched on this term, well, these words,

theory of change, before, Bec.

Do you reckon you could maybe, um, give a little bit of- It's like the movie Theory

of Everything,

isn't it?

… a little, little bit of explanation around what the theory of change work

that you and Jeremy have been doing?

'Cause I know you guys have been spending a lot of time on it.

Yeah, sure.

So ultimately it comes down to- Us, recognizing that there's five

areas that we can make an impact.

So the first one is around, um, providing practical industry guidance, and that

is probably what we do best through our roadmap to net zero sustainable homes that

Jeremy Spencer's authored on our website.

And there's lots of other things that we're tinkering

around the edges there with.

So, you know, that roadmap still needs evolving work.

You know, case studies are really important.

It's how do we actually provide the way to get to net zero sustainable homes?

What does it mean, and what are the steps to get there?

Have you been able to link up with, like, because you say case studies,

like, PhD candidates for universities to do studies and stuff and help.

Is that, is that what you're talking about with those- Yeah … type of case studies?

Well, we're talking… Well, we're really keen to get member case studies.

Okay.

So builders and architects.

There's practical… So at SBA, I guess one of the things that we

pr- pr- uh, pride ourselves on is being practical and making sure

that we're not getting too academic.

Mm. Um- Yeah … there is a place for all that research.

It's super important.

But for us, it's around what are people actually doing out there that, you

know, the average builder can take and implement into their own methodology.

Yeah.

Um, so probably the second area that's important for us is developing education.

So we are currently, um, working with TAFE around developing or

co-developing a course, um- Yeah … that will hopefully be rolled out to,

uh, a pilot l- later this year.

Is that old mate that we- Yep.

Yep, cool.

Yep.

What was that?

Yeah.

It was Troy.

Troy.

Troy.

Trent.

Trent.

Trent.

Trent.

Sorry, Trent.

From Polly, Melbourne Polytechnic.

Polytech, yeah.

So we met Trent last year, and yeah, I think we-

He was fantastic,

actually … made a connection.

Yeah.

He was awesome.

Yeah, yeah, Trent is a, an amazing guy, yeah.

Um-

You know, when someone cares instantly, they're not just- Yeah

doing this for the- Yep … "Look at me, I'm-" No, he cares.

Yeah.

You just instantly- Yeah … like, like we just got introduced to him and five

minutes later we started the podcast.

And then I think it, we had allocated a half hour and it was an hour.

It was

more like an… Yeah.

Yeah.

He was, he was aw- and super passionate as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And understood where the gaps were- Yeah

… as well.

And been in government politics- Yeah … as well.

Yeah, yeah.

So he understands how to navigate the space.

So- Yeah … huge shout out to them.

Absolutely.

Uh, building workforce capacity is really important.

So, you know, it's one thing to be training up and making sure that we've

got the professionals that can do these jobs, but we also need to make

sure that homeowners can actually find the builder or the designer or

the engineer or the energy assessor that they need that understands

what a net zero sustainable home is.

Um-

That's a good topic because, like, we already don't have enough people to

be able to build You've got to almost look at a, a 20 year, 20 years ahead.

'Cause it, it's almost like you need to like just scrap a whole generation

and just start again with education on teaching people to build better, I feel.

Because you've got so many older people, and I'm not, and I'll say it, that they

just, "Oh, I've done it this way for so long," and they continue to teach someone

that then they then have that thought.

Like, I, I know that I, I, I feel like sometimes you just got to skip

a generation and just start fresh.

Uh, but that, that's not the real world though- I know

unfortunately.

I know.

It'd be nice to do that, um-

It comes down to government getting in and, it's getting in at like the TAFE,

like po- uh, Melbourne Polytech at like when they're doing their apprenticeship,

so it is in front of them from the start.

Just digressing just slightly, um, you know, creating this workforce, um, to

actually do the work I think is one of our- I, I think one of the biggest

reasons, if you are a builder out there, of becoming a member of SBA, because

then you actually go on our register.

So you can jump on, do all your badges, and the more badges you do,

the higher you are up on the list.

That's right.

And when people are starting to, you know, Google sustainable builders or

even designers, we've got a lot of architects on, um, as members now,

you actually show up on that register.

And we know for a fact that people are searching that register to look

for builders that are aligned with the projects that they're doing.

So-

The current workforce, it… I, I reckon there's enough builders out there who

know how to do it, and there's enough architects who know how to do it.

I think the people is, are the issue, that we have the cost, is people

perceive this as a cost problem.

How, like… And trying to educate a client that doing this extra piece or

putting the extra internal membrane or this better material, they have

this perceived idea it's expensive.

And I, and I think we spoke about this pre- pre-recording, that I

think it's actually a marketing problem with people being able

to sell these things to clients.

I think the cost piece is a challenging thing to try and

unpack in a, you know, 45-minute-

I know, but you've got how many, how many, how many builders you got

going today, and how many people are going to, like, Dylan's…

Yeah, look, I mean- Like, there's an appetite for it from builders … no,

I, I, I agree with you.

I agree with you, but I actually think that the, the cost is a global

thing, not necessarily a, about a- No, y- yes … performance thing.

Like, I think that's just a problem that the building industry needs to

solve, not performance construction.

No, I, I agree, but I think they get mixed up.

I, I agree.

I agree.

Because people think building's already expensive, I don't wanna go down that

path because it's gonna be more expensive.

Like, the reality is building is just expensive.

Yeah, and how many- Whether we're building a shit house or a good house.

Yeah.

And there's that many builders out there that we know that are even trying to get

into this space, but they can't pick up a passive house or a high-performance job.

They know how to do it.

They're capable.

Yeah.

It's the either being able to find the client or the, the

designer to team up with or…

Well, this is where the register-

That's, yeah, why we've got the- … is slow … Sustainable Building Directory.

Oh.

It's exactly for this point.

It's to be able to match like-minded homeowners or- Yeah … clients with

those designers, architects- Yeah.

But how do you stop them just coming to Hamish and I all the time?

Well-

That, because

that's- He'll also be too busy.

Yeah, but, like, that's, but the thing is, like, we…

No, I think, I think, okay, so, so, I, I reckon let's just move on for

a sec because I know, like, it's, I think it's a really good conversation,

and I think it's probably something that we're just constantly gonna be

talking about and chipping away at, like the whole marketing piece and

the sales piece, you know, all the-

They're two, yeah, two different things- Yeah

I sort of think.

Um, education, workforce capacity, what else is that theory of change?

Strengthening industry alignment.

Yeah.

So we have been actively, at the SBA, collaborating with other industry

bodies out of the, out there.

So, um, you know, obviously Renew, you had Helen Oke on-

Yeah, yeah … the other week.

Um- She's lovely.

Yeah, she's awesome.

We're doing, you know, a, having a lot more conversations with Renew and

particularly- For us, we want to look at more ways that we can promote our members.

Mm. So there'll be some exciting news coming up soon, hopefully

around opportunities for our members with Renew and Sanctuary Magazine.

Um, Design Matters National, obviously supporting them with

the True Zero Carbon Challenge.

Um, Architects Declare, you know, where Jeremy and I are

in conversations with MECLA.

Um, obviously the Passive House Association, it's been really

exciting to be able to pick up some conversations with them as well.

It's

been very exciting.

Very exciting.

And, uh, of course, HIA and Master Builders as well.

What about the Architect Institute?

What about the Architect Institute?

How come they haven't got involved?

Do you know, I, I feel-

They're doing work on it.

Yeah.

They are absolutely doing work on it.

Yeah, we haven't got involved with having conversations with them yet, but we would

welcome those sorts of conversations.

So do you feel,

do, do you feel that sometimes it's like, "Oh, the- we're the little

child." Like th- that they f- like those type… I'm not saying this is

them at all, but, "Oh, that's cute." Like, "Look how big we are." Like- Uh,

do you know what?

I- 'Cause

I feel like you're now listened to, people now respect you

… I think, I think we are now operating as a bigger organization than what we are,

which I think we need to be to, to have the impact that we're, that we're doing.

Um, and I'm happy to edit this out if it's not, um, something that we can

talk about, but we are Sustainable Builders Alliance, and we have

agonized around whether or not it is Sustainable Building Alliance because-

I think the people that are coming today, I reckon there's probably more designers

and architects coming to this event today than there are actual builders.

You know, and there's 86-odd people that are there today, and I'd say a big

group, a big constituent is designers and architects, and they're genuine.

By the feedback that we're getting from these designers and, and architects

that are coming along, and it's the same people, and they- their circle's

growing 'cause they tell their friends, and then they come along.

They're actually getting so much value out- out of what we're presenting,

that they're like, "We need to see more of this," 'cause we're not

getting it, you know, in these other, like, CPD stuff that we're doing.

Keep the name.

Don't change it.

Well, it'll be, it'll still be SBA.

Yeah.

But it just won't be building.

Just, uh, just keep it.

It's

three letters.

Yeah.

We, we… I don't know.

Like, I… And, and look, it may or may not, and it may not be worth it, but, um,

I guess we just don't want the builder part of it to be a barrier, because we

feel the information and the education and the stuff that we're doing is not just for

builders, it's for in- it's industry-wide.

Yeah, I agree.

But likewise, we're striking that balance between then not upsetting

builders that have supported us- Exactly … on this journey as well.

But who,

so, so- Yeah … and you've got one, so you've got one more,

because I've got the next question- Yeah … kind of is a good…

Well, the ob-

Ties in

… obvious one is, uh, championing net zero sustainable homes.

So re- really, uh, unfortunately, we still do need to convince people why we

need them, and we do need to correct or clarify misconceptions that are out there

as well, um, and do the advocacy piece.

So yeah, that's really given us a lot of clarity around what it is we do, so when

ideas come up now amongst the board, this becomes a guiding light for us to know.

Yeah, it's like

an anchor.

Yeah.

To move forward with it.

Do, do you

know who your market is?

Because you talk about dropping the builders to building.

Like, who, like, what percentage do you have across the board?

Do you know off the top of your head?

Yeah.

Builders are predominantly the audience that follows us, but there is a close

following of architects and designers.

And then, um, not surprisingly, homeowners.

We do have a-

Yeah.

The homeowners are, like, 10%?

More?

More.

There would be more around.

So

builders would, uh, builders are over 50%?

Yes.

Builders are over

50. Okay.

Yep.

And, and there's obviously industry-based organizations as

well- Yeah … who, who follow on.

And obviously our sponsors who, who we partner with.

Suppliers, I think are- Suppliers,

yep.

Yeah … and we recognize suppliers are really key, particularly in that industry

collaboration piece, and that we can have an influence on how they behave as well.

Yep.

Well, or they also, they also have money that can help fund things

like this, because it's not free.

Absolutely.

Well, yeah.

Like, and that's, and that's, it, it, you need-

We- look, and look, I'm gonna just give a shameless shout-out here.

Like, Sustainable Builders Alliance exists, and we can keep

doing the great things that we do because of our amazing sponsors.

So if you are a sponsor and wanna, you know, become a part

of an amazing organization, like, get in con- get in contact.

We've got, um, gold and platinum sponsorship available.

If you are a listener out there who wants to also become a partner, we

are also up for that conversation.

Um- But yeah, that's just a cheeky plug from me

No, no, but w- and we'll get to that.

I think if you wait till the podcast, we've got some stuff

coming, but, around that.

But I think the, yeah, like the, which these things, like even the

podcast, it costs money to run.

Yeah.

So, and this is on a small scale.

You guys are on a lot bigger scale, and that's why I say, like, that's

why you need government help.

You need R&D money to be able to fund those sort of things.

Like- There's

things, there's things-

Yeah

you know, in the wheels, wheels in motion

No, no, but, but like, that's, but that's what I'm saying.

Like, yeah.

Yeah.

Like, if you know someone that can get it in, like, just reach out.

100%. What's the worst?

Is it the conversation doesn't go anywhere?

You know, we, we, you know, obviously the people that we're partnering with

and the sponsors, there definitely is a massive alignment piece.

Have you said no to any sponsors?

We, we've, we have- very politely, um- The call … talked through the

reasons why we may not take on certain-

Yeah, they might not align.

Yeah.

That, that's what I mean.

I, but that's- There's alignment pieces … so that's, so that,

which is I was- It's important.

… I was

hoping you would say that.

Yeah.

There's definitely alignment

pieces for sure.

Yeah, 'cause you can't have, like, a steel- Yeah … frame company

coming out, "Let's build net zero."

No.

I mean, BP wanted to give us a million bucks.

We said no.

No.

I bet, you know, RACV, if you're out there, I know you guys are

pretty big in the space, you got plenty of money to throw around,

happy to have a conversation.

Or

a bank.

Bank Australia.

Who are just making absolute m- shitloads of money right now.

Yep.

No, I mean, BP wanted to give us a million bucks.

We said no.

No.

I bet, you know, RACV, if you're out there, I know you guys are

pretty big in the space, you got plenty of money to throw around,

happy to have a conversation.

Or a bank.

Bank Australia.

Who are just making absolute m- shitloads of money right now.

Yep.

Um, so any, uh, anything else that's come out of that theory of change work?

Look, I think it's just around also language that we use as well, and really

understanding what the problems are.

What are the barriers?

You know, we've done a lot of work unpacking, like, what is stopping us

from moving forward down this pathway.

What is?

Uh, this, so- Well,

at this point, what's your biggest thing that you think is stopping

everyone doing this right now?

Biggest thing is lack of education and incentives to educate.

Would education from, from a construction design side or from a client side?

From a construction design side, yeah.

So do you think clients are driving this more than construction industry are?

I think the evidence that we're starting to see come out, you know,

a lot of reports are being published around the demand that, uh, homeowners,

renters, buyers- Yeah … are pushing to, uh, you know, they wanna

know answers, particularly around energy efficiency, when they're

making these decisions around homes.

Um, that, that's coming and, and that's, that's pushing.

It's pushing government change.

It's why the government's create- the federal government's got this

mandate around net zero sy- uh, net zero homes, and it's, it's

why we're seeing more demand.

I think we need to be able to help architects and builders be able to,

um, respond to that and be able to, like you say, be able to market to

it, be able to position themselves.

And, and, and, and one of the biggest reasons for that is so

that they understand the costs.

Yep.

And you can bridge that alignment with client expectations, particularly in

times like now when there is a lot of uncertainty and, you know, you've got

your plumbing supplier calling you up and saying there's a 30% price increase.

There's never more been an important time to be able to under- have

a conversation with your clients around cost and why things cost more.

Yeah.

A plumbing pipe isn't increasing the performance of your house as a cost.

That's not the reason why.

Yeah.

But-

No, but it, it, it all feeds into the same bucket, doesn't it really?

Do I have a

theory on this?

is sometimes just not talking about it when you want to

sell it and just doing it.

Like, why do you just, like, if I'm an architect or a builder, just go do

it and just be like, "This is it. This is how we do things." Like, why do you

need to educate them that you've put in a thicker wall with insulation, we're

building airtight mechanical ventilation?

Why do they need to know that?

Because you don't sit there showing them the, the engineering regs and the,

the back end of the energy report or-

I think it's all of it, though.

I think it's all of it.

I think there's the education piece, there's that work pl- that workforce

capacity that you're talking about.

I think it, it's coming from consumers, it's coming from government, then it's

coming from builders and designers.

Like, I think it, e- everyone's playing their role in, in solving the problem.

It's not just one part of the puzzle that's like, that's gonna fix it.

No, no, no, no.

And, and like it, this, at the end of the day, sustainability is a puzzle, and

you, it's a puzzle that's never-ending, that you're never gonna be able to

put a whole piece together, 'cause it's just you, unless you've got one

of those things called a money tree, you're just not going to be able to

hit every single item in the book.

I mean, I've definitely noticed a shift, though.

And ag- and again, I'm, I'm in a A bubble that's growing.

You know, client… I don't have to explain it to people.

Yeah, we don't talk about it, and I think that's what works.

Yeah.

I think as you… And for anyone that's starting this

journey, like, you get confused.

And I know we had James on, and we asked him, uh, recently, like, he was saying

that he's struggling to sell building better, and we're like, "Sell us." And he

just talk… Like, and no offense to him, but he started talking about, like, you,

you lose the client in the conversation w- where you're better off just not- Yeah

talking about it and just being, explaining the level of comfort

and the level of, like, better living that you're gonna have.

But don't get

caught in the weeds.

Yeah.

Don't- No, I think- … get caught in the weeds.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The words comfort and cost.

But that's also now- Yeah

… overdone.

That's the hard part.

But I think, I think being, being really…

Okay, if you, if you think about where we're educating the workforce, so

we're educating and then creating a workforce that has the capacity to do

it, and then all of a sudden it doesn't become a selling piece, it just becomes

an education piece to the client.

Go, "Right, our walls are 140.

We're insulating them really well.

We've got this ventilate." And don't even give them an option.

Just don't tell them about it.

Just be like, "This is what it looks like. You happy? Sweet."

Yeah.

Well, I mean,

don't, I'll- It should, should be sh- I think personally, as a designer, you're

not doing your job correctly if you don't make it healthy and comfortable- Mm-hmm

and you're not making it energy efficient.

You- Yeah, I've been dis- Because the- … probably disagree with that … the

issue that you have is the, there's so many of these awards that are based on

the pure aesthetics, and sustainability is one of the 10 criteria on there,

where it shouldn't even be a criteria.

It should just be part of the whole… That, that, that just should be normal.

Yeah.

I mean, the thing- What I think we've got to think about too is

the market that we're talking to.

So it's all very well to talk to custom home builders, but we've got to recognize-

Yeah … that a big part of the homes that are built are built by volume builders.

Yeah.

And for them, it comes down to a cost-

Like, there are

other challenges … decision at the end of the day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and that's probably a really good example of you not asking the client what

they want and actually saying, "This is what you get for the money." But then

I feel like our role, SBA's role, and we've been having conversations with

Metricon, and they seem, on the surface, reasonably open to hearing about it.

I think there'll be a slower uptake on it, but-

Every cent counts for them though.

That's, that's the reality.

But if you think, if, if every single volume builder home in Australia actually

built to seven stars, like actually built to seven stars and tested and verified, it

would have a much bigger impact than you and I building five or six homes a year.

Oh, we, we're little fish.

Yeah.

Like, that's… I think it-

I wanna-

Yeah.

This, this is, this is relevant.

And by the time this podcast comes out, this report would've been released.

But recently, SBA, uh, you might have seen it on your social media,

we did a bit of a campaign on, um, a survey, answering a survey.

So Bec, I'm gonna let you talk about that, 'cause off, off the back of

it came this really interesting state of the market, um, report,

which I read last night, but super interesting findings off the back of it.

Yeah, absolutely.

So between- Yeah … Jan and March this year, we surveyed

over 140 residential builders.

Um, and we were looking for patterns around- what was happening

in the market, particularly around high-performance builders.

So we identified a group of high-performance builders, and that was

around 30% of those that we surveyed.

Um, and, and one of the kind of factors was that they positioned

their work as high performance.

So they were talking about those things like comfort and energy efficiency and

health when they sell and talk to clients.

And we identified that of those high-performance builders are nearly twice

as likely to have work locked in more than six months ahead than other builders.

So it's pretty You know, pretty interesting find.

It, it- I

think what you're seeing there is you're seeing a, a, a shift in

the market wanting it, you know?

Yeah.

And, and people who, you know, who are spending money are going to those

builders who are doing the thing, right?

The market definitely want it.

I think, I actually don't

think- The

market wants it

I actually don't think there's an issue with the market.

That's why I always go back to it's, the, we need to

differentiate sales and marketing.

They're two different things, and you can market about it,

but if you can't talk about it-

Yeah, well, this-

… I mean, it's confidence because it's, it's… Like, we faked it

till we made it, and back then there was no, it's like- Still

faking it.

Still faking it … No, but, like, the thing is, but back then it

was, like, cool, like, the, in the sense of we had nothing to lose.

Now if you want to fake it, the issue is there's so much information out there

that you kind of can't fake it anymore because people are educated to an extent.

Yeah, which is amazing.

Which is amazing.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

But this is what I was saying, sorry, slightly digressing back, um, James, who

we had on, who I reckon has, will, will-

He'll be fine

… come, come out before this episode, but I actually said to him, "I think you've

got this really amazing opportunity to actually take clients on a journey now."

Because you're, y- if you get on in front of, um, your camera and tell people

where you want to take your business, and you get people along this journey

for the next six to 12 months of, "All right, this is where we're shifting our

business, and these are the things that we're gonna do along the way." And then

you jump on the camera again and say, "Right, today we did some pro climate

training," and, "Today I went to this factory over here to hear about HRVs."

And you actually educate clients along your journey of you becoming

more educated, and I reckon that's going to appeal to people.

Yeah, if you're a client,

like- Because you're a human then, and you're learning.

And, you know, if you've got someone over here who wants to get a builder

on board who may or may not be a little bit cheaper, um, to come along

on your journey as well, I think y- there's a huge opportunity there.

And

you're gonna make- And be honest and vulnerable … you're gonna

make mistakes along the way.

Yeah.

Like, you're gonna make big mistakes, but that's okay.

That's how we, we've both made them.

Yeah.

We learn.

Well, let's just say, let, I, I would like to think the mistakes

that people are making now are- Less

probably less because there's more education.

Yeah.

I think it gives you confidence too, as a client, that if this builder

is investing in their education- Definitely … investing in what they're

doing, that they're probably a builder that's less likely to end up insolvent,

which, let's face it, is a, a real- Yeah

risk now- Yeah … when people are shopping around for builders.

Yep.

And we know from, I guess, conversations that we, that aren't necessarily public

facing, of builders interstate wanting what we're doing in all other states.

Because

you are very Melbourne based.

We are at the moment.

Yeah,

there is.

There is, there is a work in progress, uh, for chapters, but it's certainly

something that we don't want to half-ass.

And we can't, because obviously we've been working really hard

to establish a really good brand.

And we, we wanna make sure when we roll this out, it's, it's right.

There's proper governance around it and- There's a lot of

learnings from the Passive House Association with the chapters.

Well, let's just say there's a lot of learnings from other organisations, and

not necessarily Passive House or whoever.

Like, you just need to make sure that these, the people that you're, you're

engaging with state by state are reading from the same hymnbook and rolling

out the same information than from Sydney, Melbourne, Queensland, WA.

It's, it's all gotta be uniform.

You've got the person in WA sorted.

We've got WA sorted, yeah.

We

do

have

WA sorted.

I reckon you've got Tacey sorted.

Look, the, I'll be honest with you, I reckon we've got most states covered,

and, and builders and designers engaged wanting to put their hand up and say,

"We wanna do it." The problem for us is-

Probably just a call-out to Queensland builders there.

Um, we could- They're

always…

But they're 30 years behind time.

The Spice Girls just came out in Queensland.

Yeah.

Look, b- so I actually got a message from someone from Queensland today

saying that he listens to our podcast, and, like, there gen- there's,

there is engaged builders there.

So if you are in Queensland and you are interested in, you know, maybe

picking up a chapter position, it's not something that's happening next week.

But I'd say over the next six to 12 months, we're gonna have a framework

around chapters which then will allow us to do events like we're

doing today, that is completely sold out, and rolling it out nationwide.

And the first step to that is building our membership.

Yeah, yeah.

'Cause we can't have chapters without a solid membership.

Yeah.

And, and that's something that we're really focused on.

You know, we only launched membership in July last year.

Um, so it's- How many members you

got now?

Uh, we're hit the hun- we're hitting the 100 mark, I think.

Good job.

Yeah, we're two off.

Yeah.

So it's pretty exciting.

Yeah.

All right.

So let's, let's, let's, let's double that.

Uh,

yep.

All right.

Yeah.

And we are, and we are gonna have a discount code at the end

of this podcast that we're gonna give out.

So, yeah, so there's a discount code for signing up for members, so

now you have to listen to the end.

Yeah.

And you got no choice.

Yeah.

If you don't, if you don't sign up, we're gonna boot you off.

You're not gonna get this podcast anymore.

Yeah, d- it's like a, it's like a firewall.

Yeah.

To get access to the podcast episode.

Um, yeah, so state of the market report, Bec.

Yeah, so I think the… When we did this, I guess personally I was

sort of expecting that we would identify there was two gr- groups.

There was high-performing builders and there were other builders.

And we were looking, okay, so what are the pain point

differences for those two groups?

What are the, um, pipeline differences for those two groups?

What was really interesting was we identified a third group, and

that is transitioning builders.

So those that are actually Say that they're building above code,

uh, in most of their projects.

But what the difference was, what s- separated them from an actual

high-performance builder was how they positioned themselves.

So they weren't actually talking with potential clients around

these things, around comfort and cost and health and, and the like.

So we see that as a really big opportunity.

You know, you're part the way there.

Um, and that's where SBA can help.

That's where we can get involved, and we can… You know, we've got some

amazing builders in our circle, like Matt, like Hamish, who are doing a

great job of, um, articulating what they do and why they do it, and why is

i- it is important and, and that we can help builders go on that journey to…

You know, at the end of the day, we wanna have a sustainable building industry.

I know probably not the best word to use, but- It's fine.

I know … a healthy building industry, and, and that requires, um, you know,

builders that have got good pipelines.

And we're not perfect-

No

… at all.

Like, we're not… Like, we make mistakes constantly.

Um-

But I think, I think you, you and I, and, and, you know, people in our, um,

uh, circle are always like, uh, "What's the next thing? How can we fur- how can

we get better than we were yesterday?"

Do you have to be vulnerable first to admit that you're

not doing- Oh, 100%, yeah.

Def- Do you have to admit like, "I'm not doing a good job at this"- Definitely

and just be open about it?

100%.

Like, why hasn't anyone done a video on that, and be like, "I'm not building

correctly," and just go, "And I need clients who need to help me feel better"?

But this is, this is what I was… Sorry to interrupt.

This is what I was saying, that James has that opportunity.

Yeah.

James is like, "You know what?

On self-reflection of the homes that I was building, even though I

consider myself a good craftsperson, I wanna now become better at

building more healthy homes." That,

that, that, cr- doing a good, being good at your craft and building better

are two different things, by the way.

No, agreed.

Yeah, yeah.

No, agreed.

Just so people understand that.

Totally agree.

Totally agree.

Totally agree.

Um, what else has come out of that report?

Um, yeah, probably the biggest frustration that those transitioning

builders reported was clients who didn't understand what things actually cost.

And again, that goes back to that education

piece That's, that's not a su- that's not a sustainability problem.

I think that's every client in any situation.

I

think the tricky part though, and I think you and I can talk to that because

we've got the data and experience on projects, it's I personally feel it, like-

I think that's on the builder

And again, I'm gonna use James as my avatar here, right?

Mm-hmm.

I'm sure he's not gonna mind.

James Turner.

He's SBA member.

Um, so we know what it costs to build a custom home, but we also

know what it costs to put all these sustainable performance things on.

And I would argue that a custom home and a sustainable or high-performance

home should cost the same.

All homes are expensive.

Building's expensive.

Yeah, that's, this is what I'm saying.

Building is for rich people right now.

Let's just be, why do we have to tiptoe around this conversation, I feel?

But

we have the knowledge to back up with all the jobs that we've done, and know

what levers we can pull when we're, when we're trying to hit the markers of

healthy, sustainable, and affordable.

Whereas someone who hasn't built a sustainable or a passive house

before, they don't know what all those other things cost, and they

don't know what the the trade-off of doing this or doing that is.

They don't know how to use PHPP as an optimizing tool for cost and performance.

I

think the thing is you've got TV shows like The Block that sit there showing

how cheap a bathroom or kitchen is- Yeah

when they're being gifted all this free product, and now people and consumers

have the idea that- It's entertainment.

That's all it is … that- It's all entertainment … but that's

what they think a home costs.

Yeah.

No, it's entertainment.

And it's not fair on the homeowner to come into a building situation and go,

"I think this is what it should cost."

That's not their job.

That's not what they do every day.

Could you also have an opportunity right now, Matt, to say, 'cause I

know on your home, I think you were sitting over there when you were

talking about the cost of your home, and then they edited- They, oh yeah.

Okay, so- … they edited out- Yeah … they edited out the bit with

it of th- th- what this home- Right

actually would have

cost.

So, and I've said this publicly, so I was gifted a lot of free stuff.

I also had a, uh- It

was a, it was, it was a, it

was a- 9f- … a win-win It cost, it cost me $950,000.

Yeah.

Like, that was like r- that was my cost.

Yeah.

That doesn't include my time as a builder.

My team became, uh, substantially cheaper because I could have them at cost.

Wholesale cost, yeah.

Yeah, wholesale cost.

I als- So 1.6 to 1.8.

I also naturally had trades that looked after me because we'd done

a lot of work- Yeah … and good relationships, so they helped me.

I didn't ask them to, but they did naturally.

And then also had a lot of free stuff given to me, and then I have

the ability to be creative during the design and optimize it because

I know h- what is affordable.

So there's a inherited cost come back that.

This house would cost 1.6 to 1.8 minimum if I was to tell anyone-

Yeah … what to build now.

And, and I, and I, and most people understand that.

Yeah.

And I've never, I actually haven't had one person go, "Well, why can't you

build that for me?" Because I think, I think we've got to give more credit

to the average person, that they understand what things cost these days.

Our inquiries now, we're not getting crappy inquiries with shitty budgets.

They actually understand the value of building.

They just know- Yeah … they can't afford it, and, and that's

a worldwide issue in any building.

Sorry, we digress,

we digress

a little bit.

But, but I think, but- But

it, that's because you've positioned yourself that way.

Yes.

But I- Yes … yeah, but I think, but I think we've… I get really frustrated,

and I could get in trouble here.

Um, I've said some dumb things before.

Is this the day Matt gets canceled?

I'll

be curious- But, but we have all these people saying- … to know if that is that

… "Oh, I wanna build for the lower income person, and we wanna design for them."

The reality is they don't have the money They can't afford to build.

They don't pay the bills that, like, w- our overheads or the

architects overhead, and ultimately they don't put food on the table.

What I'm getting at here is building is for rich people.

We can't… And, and it shouldn't be this way.

They, I'm, I'm not saying, that's just the reality of where we are right now.

What is the one thing that you're most proud of, um- You've

read my, you've read it.

You've looked at my notes.

Most pr- that you're most proud of, uh, that you've done for SBA?

Uh, probably this week we got our Social Traders certification.

Yes.

So that's pretty big.

Big.

It doesn't go to just anyone, and ultimately what that does is it

recognises us as a social enterprise.

And a- What's

a social enterprise?

A social enterprise is a organisation that is recognising people, planet,

um- That's cool … as well as profit.

That's cool.

But

it,

it, it recognises that ultimately we are serving the interests of

our community above taking profit.

Yeah, there's a message in that.

That's cool.

And if you… Correct, correct me if I'm wrong.

If you are a partner or a sponsor out there, your contribution is

now completely tax-deductible.

Is that

correct?

Uh, I need to correct you, 'cause that is wrong.

Oh, sorry.

We are not a not-for-profit.

Well, let's, let's, let's, let's completely edit that bit out then.

Who ca- No, but no, I think you're winning.

Who cares?

Like, who cares if it's not tax-deductible?

Like, you're doing it for the right reason.

Like, you sh- Yeah … you shouldn't be investing in something if,

for tax- It's not tax-deductible

yet.

Yeah, but yeah.

Correct.

Yeah.

You shouldn't be investing in something just because it's tax-deductible.

Like, that is just- Yeah.

No, that's true … it's accounting 101.

So anyway, Mindful Moment, sponsored by MEGT, Australia's largest,

largest, um, apprenticeship providers.

So SBA, you need to become a member.

All right, now we're lucky enough here, it, it, there's… We talk about

apprentices learning and people learning.

There's so much information here from webinars once a month.

Is that right?

Or- Yes, once a month.

Yeah … quite often in-per- in-person events, online content,

like- Podcasts … podcasts.

Podcasts.

We've got

our own podcast.

Like honestly, yeah, like Builders, uh, Sustainable

Builders Yak with Brian and Simon.

So there are so many resources.

And to keep these going, ultimately SBA need money.

So a membership is $600.

Is that correct, Bec?

Correct, $600.

But we are doing a 15% discount off, well, we are now, uh, the

Mindful Builder as the promo code.

TMB15.

There we go.

Okay.

TMB- And I've just written that down … T-M- You better write that down,

Bec … B-1-5.

Will give you a 15% discount, um-

Yep

… for becoming a member.

And the first five people to sign up will also get dinner with Hamish.

So So, uh-

It's not entirely true.

It is, at Warren and Howe Pub.

Yeah, I, I tell you what, as long as you come to the Warren and Howe

Pub, and it's all on the same day.

Um, so,

uh- Before, before, before 6:00 PM.

And so I, I'll even drive out if you get that.

So- I

don't believe that.

No, I don't.

Uh, the Tesla will drive it out, drive me out.

But anyway, sign up because I think it's a great cause, and-

What a cause It

i- it is.

It's a movement It's a movement

Same, yeah, same thing, isn't it?

And we're, we're like a legit organ- organization now.

I think we've-

Yeah, you, but you always have been

we've,

we've moved, I think we've moved beyond a, a cause, which is the biggest

reason why we moved from Builders Declare and rebranded, 'cause that

was a movement, that was a cause.

Now we feel like the Sustainable Builders Alliance, or SBA, is

like a, it's like a legitimate-

Association

… association.

I think that you can, I think you can still

be an associ- We've also become the Association, yeah.

Alliance.

I, I think you can still be even an association/a cause.

Yeah.

So I th- I think that you guys are doing an amazing job.

Um-

Bec's always the one that corrects me when I go off at a-

So- Yeah, it's Bec.

You should just follow

me around … Ha- Hamish, Hamish needs some media training.

So we have architects, clients- It's part of my charm, actually

trades, builders, engineers, interior designers sign up.

There is actually no excuse.