Episode Summary:  in this episode, our hosts explore the concept of sufficiency to tackle climate change issues. 

According Dr Yamina Saheb, a Lead Author of the 2022 IPCC (United Nation’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) report, ‘by 2050, sufficiency has the potential to reduce emissions, compared to current policy scenarios, by more than 50% in almost all sectors’. 

What is sufficiency?

As defined in the 6th Assessment Report of the IPCC:

“sufficiency is a set of measures and daily practices that avoid demand for energy, materials, land, and water while ensuring human well-being for all within planetary boundaries” 

It is also about finding solutions within the constraints of the planetary boundaries which requires a shift of mindset. 

But what could happen if we look at constraints as guidelines for reinventing our societies for the better?

Let’s deep dive together!

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Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang, Olabanji Stephen, Jenn Swanson, and Kristina Horning 

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France. 

Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria. He’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work.

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and community Connector, helping people help themselves. 

Kristina is working on design theory and using the design process in everything. Currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Ima.

I live in Scotland.

Hi, I'm Jen and I'm from Canada.

Hi, I'm Ola Ji and I'm from Nigeria.

Hello, I'm Leaky and I live in Paris.

Hey, I'm Rod.

I'm from Peru.

Welcome to Carbon Sessions.

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Hi, I am leaky.

Hi, I'm Christina.

Hi, I'm Jen.

Hi, I'm Ola Bji.

And today we have a very interesting topic.

We'll be talking about sufficiency.

I mean, what, what comes to mind when you think about sufficiency?

More like what's enough, what's not enough?

But we have leaking, you know, today to do justice to that, or at least give us

some insight into what sufficiency is.

So you wanna tell us what we, you.

Tell us something about sufficiency.

Yeah, maybe I could start, by, sharing the fact that I attended the first

sufficiency summit a couple weeks ago in Paris, and it was organized by a

university in Paris, uh, together with the university in Australia on Zoom.

Don't worry.

No, nobody, , took a plane to fly to.

but it was a very important topic because it all organized by two universities.

And, uh, one thing that really caught my attention is that the, , summit started

with this statement that says that by 2050 sufficiency has the potential

to reduce emissions compared to.

Current policy scenarios by more than 50% in almost all sectors, and that is a lot.

Wow.

Yeah.

I was waiting for your usual.

Wow.

Yeah.

Well, strangely enough, uh, sufficiency.

Has been defined only in the last I P C C report.

You know, the I P C C report is the intergovernmental panel on climate

change and, um, the definition is that sufficiency is a set of measures and

daily practices that avoid demand for energy, material, land, and water.

While ensuring human wellbeing for all women planetary boundaries, and this is

very important because, um, the set of measure and daily practices means that

it's about policies that will trigger individual action and daily practices.

, um, you know, you can think of, okay, I'm using new sufficiency and so I'm doing not

too much, but if there's no policies, it will be very difficult to do it at scale.

And then the second thing is that, you know, it emphasizes

on the fact that it avoid demand for energy, material, and land.

And it's about all resources.

Not only climate change, not only carbon and fossil fossil fuels.

It's about all resources and in also tackles demand.

And that is very important.

And then it also focuses on ensuring human wellbeing for all.

And so it stresses on.

Social justice because it's about making sure that everyone's wellbeing is

taken into account and not just a few, and also within planetary boundaries.

And so this means that it's looking at the planet as a whole and acknowledging that

we live in a world with finite resources.

So that is a very important definition, I think.

Can I ask a question?

Oh, yes, please.

It, it sounds like a very big concept, but what does that

look like in practical terms?

Is it just everyone only uses as much as they need?

Or is it, is are, does there regulation around it or how does this work?

Well, actually, um, it's a concept that has been used and implemented.

In France, and actually France is the only country in the EU that has

considered an energy sufficiency in its decarbonization strategy.

So it means that in the law, um, there's rules for building,

renovation and retrofitting.

Um, there's also, because, you know, when you have building that

are, uh, more energy is efficient.

You know, you, uh, curb the demand for resources.

And also there are policies for clean transport development.

So, um, it means that you have a, countrywide, uh, program to move to

electric cars and charging stations, , and also, uh, your incentive to, uh,

for car sharing and, um, and public transportation system everywhere.

Um, it's also, uh, reducing waste in France.

It's a big, big program to reduce waste.

So this is, um, , those are not like simple thing that you can do on

your own, , um, it's, I guess it's something that is spoil in doing this

kind of strategies, uh, at scale.

Wow.

Did I answer your question?

Yeah, I think it does.

Thank you.

But I guess, you know, those are the things that we can think of.

But I think the idea of, of talking about sufficiency and, , having sufficiency

policies, it means that, you know, it's something that is important.

And then the tackle , at the national level.

Wow, that's interesting.

So if, if we were to, and I mean, if, if we were to.

Um, efficiency policies like describe sufficiency in maybe

another term, it might be something wide efficiency policies.

Um, would that be correct?

Um, I think, and I'm not a specialist.

Okay.

I just, you know, I'm just, I've just discovered this concept a couple

weeks ago, but I think that the main difference between efficiency and

sufficiency is that, Um, sufficiency aims at, uh, reducing the demand for

energy, where efficiency, , focuses on, okay, um, we have this thing, and

we try to make it a little bit better.

Where sufficiency is really thinking of, okay, how we can

we design a better system?

How can we design better economy that does not only focuses on, You

know, on certain, um, economic parameters, but on human wellbeing.

That's, that's really interesting.

This is my understanding.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Christina, you wanna, you wanna chime in?

Yeah, I have questions.

Did they, when they talked about the sufficiency, did they also

talk about the differences between people being sufficient and

the companies and governments?

The differences between those two.

And also differences between countries, uh, like um, where in, let's say in

the US I just traveled between Europe and us, and I could see how different

people live and how much they consume in the US compared to Czech Republic.

Mm.

Uh, and so I was wondering if they were.

Going into details like that?

Um, okay.

Um, I think it's, um, you know, the idea is just, you know, it's just germinating.

This is the first international summit insufficiency that I attended

and I think it's not a lot of people are aware of this concept and,

uh, so I think it's will be quite difficult for like, you know, Europe.

Say, uh, to control over what's happening in the states because, um, you know, as,

um, as I suggested before is that, you know, if for this strategies, for this

measures to be if effective, it needs to be, uh, implemented at policy level.

And there's no way for.

I mean, there's no, there, of course there's diplomacy and negotiation and all

that, but it's very difficult for Europe to say, okay, we doing this, and then

therefore you have to do it the same way.

And to answer your first question, you know, is it on individuals

or on, uh, or companies?

It's a very interesting question um, because in France we have been using

this policy, especially over the winter when, , we were, uh, forecasting,

um, you know, um, , energy shortage because of the war in Ukraine.

Well, actually, I remember there was , the Minister of Economy appearing

on television, uh, wearing your, uh, turtleneck, , sweater and saying,

oh wow, you should limit the, the heating indoor and, um, and, uh,

switch off your, , your equipment when you're, don't use it at night and.

It made people laugh because, uh, again, you know, he was , telling

people and they're referring again to individual action, whereas, as

you know, there probably individual action is good, but it's not enough.

Well, well at the same time they were, , also measures like, you

know, oh, well businesses needs to switch off the light when, um,

when the business is not operating.

And, uh, that was, uh, something that has not been enforced,

uh, properly, I'm afraid.

So, yeah, it has to be implemented at all level, I think.

And that's interesting.

So, I mean, you've been in France and we, we only know France to

be the country that is, uh, most involved with or making good efforts

to try to, to do, um, , to do this.

How does it feel being in France and seeing some of this.

Policies implemented.

Are people like, Hey, hey, hey guys.

What are you doing to us?

I mean, what's going on?

Why, why do we have to do this?

Or like, what has been the response of people to, uh, to, to this

policies and some of this measures that have been put in place?

Um, I think the respond has been mixed because, um, somehow it's kind of common

sense, To, you know, to, to turn up the heating and switch off the, your

appliances when you don't use them.

Um, so there's this, there's the other thing is that there's, um, , there's

a big resentment because, um, people, individuals feels against, you know, those

that we are, again, asking people to.

To make a novel effort, you know, whereas this, I guess

it's this big thing, in France.

Mm.

Uh, this big debate.

Yeah.

Well, making a lot of, as individual will, making already a lot of efforts to

help the economy, help the environment.

Yeah.

And, um, and we need more.

But I think that, , , um, this kind of, , uh, reaction.

It's justified, , because, uh, yes, businesses also

need to think of sufficiency.

And that I think it's great because, um, because it's a change of mindset.

Mm-hmm.

You know, instead of, of thinking, okay, we need to sell war, war, war,

and an increased demand, what can we do?

, and I think this is, um, this, uh, , it's opens the door to a lot of

opportunities like, you know, Instead of thinking of planetary boundaries

as limits, what about if we think about it as guidelines for growth?

Wow.

You know, and what would be , business if we think of planetary

boundaries as guidelines for growth.

And that's, you know, that's why , we are having this conversation because I

would love to hear, you know, from you.

Wow.

I think that is a mind blowing, like seeing, cause I was

reading a book this week.

And he was talking about constraints and the book was saying like, when

you please constraints, then you can get creative about more ways to

achieve the same goals or even better.

And I mean, he was describing that most businesses can survive with

about half of the money that they spend on expenses, but they don't know

that yet until that's all they have.

Um, , and it's really interesting to think about it that way.

Like, like the planetary boundaries are not to stop us from doing exploits.

Perhaps it's a welcome to a better way of doing things and, you know, being

able to do more and do, do differently and do better, um, for the business

as, as well as for the environment.

Oh, it's quite interesting.

I think that, think about this.

Um, government institutions and governments in different countries when

they start to like, consider things this way, it, it puts like there's no, I mean,

it doesn't take away people's choices, but like, it just helps to get things done

in a systemic fashion or systemic way.

Um, and that can have a very huge impact.

Yeah.

So it's, I, I mean, I start saying, uh, um, chef.

Uh, designing recipes with foods, scrap, you know, what, what can you do?

Instead of throwing away the, the, the foods scrap, you know, instead of

turning into waste, what can we do it?

And they are starting to develop new recipes, and I think it is great.

Yeah, I, I found a chef in Nigeria today that made things

out of the, like the local food.

Like the local foods and spices he made ice cream out of.

There's a thing we call melon.

It's it, it probably is not, it's not the melon that you know, but it's a tiny seed.

We use it to make soups in Nigeria and he made ice cream with it and it was just

mind blowing, like nobody would ever think that you can make ice cream out of that.

It's like saying you make.

Soup with biscuits in that way.

And peep is like, no, you don't make soup with biscuits.

But he just, he just found a way to do, like to disrupt the food who went

there and they were, they were so over.

I mean, it was so much joy, didn't.

Enjoyed the food.

It was, I was like, wow, that's like beautiful.

We're really creative.

Yeah.

Because there's a shift of mindset, you know?

He shifted his mindset and think, okay, instead of throwing

this away, what can I do?

Yeah.

How can I turn it into something beautiful and and yummy.

Yeah.

Um, I had a couple of questions.

One of them was to do with the, the sort of the, the genesis of

this whole idea, like how long did it take and where did it.

Come from if other countries are to replicate, replicate the journey.

Where did, where did it start, if you know the history of it at all.

And then the second question has to do with competition.

And you know, you, you've got this mindset in some places of bigger

is better and more is better.

And you know, fancier is better.

And I really like the idea of.

You know, if you, if you have to get creative, we, like you

say, we are amazing creatures.

We can create, we can, you know, um, uh, what do they say?

Is it, is it scarcity?

Is the mother of invention or something?

Necessity.

Necessity.

Thank you.

Is the mother of inventions.

So, you know, there, there are things that we can do that are amazing if we think

about it, but where does competition?

The traditional competition fit into that.

Those are my two big questions.

Well, okay.

Uh, again, uh, , as I said I've just got to learn about the concept a

couple of weeks ago, uh, because I attended this, the first conference

and I've been researching the topic.

And, um, it's been defined in the I P C C report in last one in 2022 when they

were looking at mitigation solutions.

And, um, actually there was an obvious mitigation strategy, but then the offer

of , one, of the lead offer of this report realized that there's no definition.

So just think of how recent this concept is.

And, um, I think that she has been playing with this concept for, since, I

mean, I, because I've been researching, so I found a paper on a scientific

paper that she wrote in 2009, uh, 19.

And, um, and, um, based on some research from like, end of

2000, yeah, 2000 something, like early 2010, something like that.

So it's a very, very recent concept and, um, The idea is it's in germination, I

think, but nevertheless, France has been using it as a guideline to develop this.

It's the combination strategy since 2015.

So I think that, you know, people have been thinking about this concepts

for, in some circle, but has not really put a, uh, the finger on it.

Reason being is that, Um, people are afraid.

Governments are afraid that if we think of sufficiency, , it will

reduce the demand, therefore we will reduce the growth of countries.

And this is, I think this is one of the reason this something has been avoided.

, then okay.

Uh, how is it?

For competition.

Then again, I'm not a specialist on this topic, but I just see that it'll be tough.

It will be really tough because, um, it depends on the mindset.

I think that proponent of, , sufficiency, they believe that if we'll live

in the, uh, in an environment, in the economy that relies on

sufficiency, we'll be more resilient.

This is actually the problem that we had in the past couple of years

because of the war in Ukraine, because of, um, because of, um, of Covid.

I don't know about you, but in Europe we had a lot of

shortages on different things.

Not a lot, but people were afraid of the shortage.

So this is this fear of, okay, well maybe in the past 10 or

20 years, because we've been.

We've been focusing on growth, maybe things that we have, our

strategies were not, our industrial strategy was not that good.

So yeah, I think the proponent of this strategy, they were,

they are focused on resiliency.

And again, I'm not an economist really.

Um, and, um, I don't know.

There are other things that, how do you value people's wellbeing?

This doesn't go into.

Growth, um, in, in the, in the calculation of a country growth.

Um, so there are other things that are not, uh, valued in, in today's economy.

And, uh, so how does it play out with competition?

I don't know.

But I think that there are, there are things that, um, need to be assessed

and evaluated and how to evaluate.

That's difficult, I guess.

Christina, you you have an example you want to share?

Yeah, I just wanted to share something.

Uh, I started a while ago, uh, instead of using water from the

faucet, I went through a two spring and, uh, filled up a few bottles

of, uh, uh, for the usage at home.

And, uh, I was thinking about this creative and instead of being a burden,

having this opportunity because that made me get out of, out of the house, away

from the computer and walk in the woods.

I exercised, I got some fresh air and uh, then also I got water,

which was not chemically treated.

And, uh, it was delicious.

And on top of that, I was aware how much water I'm using for drinking and cooking

and, and it's not that much if, uh, I didn't let it run out of the, uh, from

the faucet, I realized I'm using much less water by doing this, uh, bringing

the spring water into the house instead of just using the water from the faucet.

So I was thinking that's definitely when I started doing it, it was not a burden

and it was fun and it was, uh, creative.

So I feel we can look at it from different point of view.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just think of your, you doing it and your neighbors are doing it, and everyone in

your town does it, and maybe in your.

In your stage and, uh, then in the country wouldn't be that beautiful.

Yeah, I, I'm not sure if it's in everybody does it, how, how it would look at the

spring, but, uh, yeah, I, I think, and just that awareness I feel created me

going for the water, created awareness, how much water I'm using, and I started

turning off the faucet much more.

And thinking about when I'm washing dishes or uh, things like that,

that it's really the awareness.

I feel it's the most important.

Not as much doing the same thing or bringing everybody, getting the water.

Yeah.

I was listening to a, um, podcast on urban farming recently, and they

were talking about self-sufficiency.

And, um, and Victory Gardens.

Yeah.

Which after World War II, I guess, or during World War ii, people were

encouraged to have gardens because the farmers, the people who were able to

farm, were actually off fighting war.

So people were encouraged to grow their own food in their own homes,

um, or patios or decks or wherever.

And they were talking about what if everyone.

You know, could do something like that in some way.

And if you had a, a home garden and someone didn't live in a place where you

could garden, you shared what you had.

If you had too much, and, you know, what would that do to our, our food situation?

Yeah.

This is, um, this, you know, this.

There's so much we can do, uh, like, you know, um, you can get food because,

um, you know, think rethinking of the food system is a big sufficiency concept

because, instead of getting your food like strawberries from, I don't know what,

you can get strawberries, uh, maybe from chili in winter, but we can get strawberry

in France, um, from South Africa in the winter for Christmas, which is crazy.

Um, but we don't need to have, uh, Do you have, uh, strawberries for Christmas?

That's stupid.

I agree.

We just don't buy them Except from the farm in the summer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

So when you, you know, when you think of sufficiency, you, you really

need to rethink of the food system where it's produced and then when

it, when it's produced locally.

, you save on, on, on transportation and all the emissions, uh,

and uh, demand for energy.

And so it's beneficial at several levels, but it just, for some reason,

I think we've gone a little bit crazy and they want everything, everything

from everywhere, anytime, you know, that is, um, I think that requires

a big shift, uh, of mindset and, um, and, um, and society as a whole.

In olden days, they, uh, uh, created fairytales about exactly the seasonal

eating and non-seasonal eating.

There is a fairy tale about a family where mean mother and

stepsisters and the good sister.

And kind sister in the middle of the winter for strawberries

and how absurd it is.

Showing it how absurd it is.

And then, uh, uh, the mean sister goes out and, uh, the magic does not help her.

Uh, so, uh, they already have been talking about in season, out of

season, uh, how it's important to.

Be aware.

Yeah.

I, I think that it's, you know, the, the concept, all the concept

underlying sufficiency, there's nothing really new about all that.

It just being aware of it and being aware that we need to maybe

go back to olden days and then.

Maybe, you know, think of, uh, what has worked before, and maybe it

was some, not everything was good before, but some of, of the ways

of living have been, were good.

And so I think the new thing, um, the, I don't know if , the innovation, but it's

the realization, the awareness of that.

Instead of thinking, okay, we want more, we want faster.

Okay.

What is sufficient?

What is enough?

And that's a tough question.

It's a good question.

It's a good question to think about and to uh, to ponder.

Yeah, that's, ponder this question cuz I don't know how you answer.

Oh.

And I think it's important to play and create and, uh, that will move

us forward and have fun with it.

Okay.

So thank you.

Thank you for this conversation and thank you for your questions.

That just, uh, I don't have the answers, but I did my best to

address your questions and thank you for bringing the topic.

It was a great one.

Thanks.

Yeah.

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