Welcome to another edition of The Scheer Post Interviews. I'm your host, Robert Scheer, and today we have a thought-provoking episode lined up for you. Joining me is Ray McGovern, a former CIA analyst with 27 years of experience under his belt, including time on the Soviet Russia desk. Ray has briefed three U.S. Presidents — Nixon, Ford, and Reagan — providing him with a unique perspective on American foreign policy and intelligence matters.

In this episode, we'll dive deep into the implications of former President Donald Trump's recent State of the Union speech. What did he really say, and why is it significant? As we explore Trump's self-described role as the “king” of America and dissect the public's reaction, we'll consider the broader impact on both domestic and foreign policy.

Ray's insights are sure to challenge your understanding of the current political landscape and the potential repercussions of Trump's administration. So, get ready for a candid discussion that spans the complexities of power, belief, and the consequences of political rhetoric.

00:01.45

Robert Scheer

Hi, this is Robert Scheer with another edition of the Scheer Post interviews with Ray McGovern, former CIA expert on Russia, 27 years with the agency as a top analyst, a leader of their Soviet Russia a desk, and he a briefer of three presidents of the United States, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, and Ronald Reagan.

00:30.00

Robert Scheer

Now we have President Donald Trump just gave his, I guess, State of the Union speech. old The timing was different. And Ray, I'm going to turn to you as an expert on these things.

00:41.63

Robert Scheer

What did he really say? What is the significance of it?

00:47.02

ray mcgovern

Well, Bob, it was quite significant. ah First and foremost, I would point out that he has referred to himself as king, sort of indirectly.

00:59.81

ray mcgovern

ah This was kind of a reflection of his consideration of the divine right of kings. um He said some things that are impossible to believe.

01:13.22

ray mcgovern

I was reminded of Alice in Wonderland. Alice complains that it's really hard to believe impossible things. And the answer she gets, oh, please, you need practice.

01:26.20

ray mcgovern

I believe six impossible things before breakfast in the morning. So one thing and we can point out is that this divine writer, King's, where he says, and I want to quote him here, I believe...

01:42.30

ray mcgovern

that my wife my life was saved the day in Butler for a very good reason. I was saved by God to make America great again.

01:53.94

ray mcgovern

i believe that. I do. Thank you. Thank you very much. Whoa. Okay. So a lot of people believe that. And so it follows from the latest poll I saw 76% of the American people watching ah thought that was a great speech, okay, that they believe this trash too.

02:18.50

ray mcgovern

Now, I'm not fond of quoting mainstream media, but CBS has done little fact-checking, all right? You remember this business about Social Security recipients over the age of 100, you no I'm looking forward to that. I only have 15 years to be 100, and then I'll still get Social Security benefits even if I'm dead.

02:39.22

ray mcgovern

Well, give me a break. Here's what CBS says about that. Fact check.

02:46.60

ray mcgovern

What Trump said was, believe it or not, government databases list 4.7 million Social Security members from people aged 100 to 109. It lists, think it goes it lists it goes on It lists 3.9 million from ages, get this now, ages 130 to 139. 3.5 million, this is social security databases. 3.5 million from ages 140 to 149, end quote.

03:19.12

ray mcgovern

and end quote And money is still being paid to many of them, period, end quote. Go on here. Ellis in Wonderland. Look, ah the his own Social Security Administrator has said, look, there's no evidence.

03:36.85

ray mcgovern

There is no no evidence that there are large numbers of people over 100 years old receiving Social Security benefits illegally. And besides that, there is no one living in the United States that is over 116.

03:54.52

ray mcgovern

So that's what the the new commissioner has said. ah then They may be listed in these databases. They're not receiving benefits.

04:04.76

ray mcgovern

So let's put that right out there.

04:07.53

Robert Scheer

Now, let me, Chris, I didn't get your intro here.

04:07.66

ray mcgovern

the

04:11.29

Robert Scheer

I mean, what you were saying. You're saying there's a CBS poll that seventy says 75% of the people think he has been picked by God to make America great?

04:19.97

ray mcgovern

Now, this is this, well, the CBS figures ah have to do with this business about Social Security recipients over 100 years old.

04:25.85

Robert Scheer

Oh.

04:27.87

ray mcgovern

The poll, I forget where I saw it. I just saw it this morning. ah They interviewed people who watched the speech. Now, bear in mind that most people watching this speech are probably Republicans and more inclined to believe Trump.

04:43.51

ray mcgovern

So, 76 is probably skewed, but my God, it's still pretty much.

04:47.58

Robert Scheer

But they what is the part they were supporting that he has, oh that they liked, you mean?

04:51.09

ray mcgovern

Just the general speech. Just the, oh yeah. Well, let's face it. I mean, it was great TV. I mean, it was orchestrated almost two hours.

05:02.28

ray mcgovern

Give me a break.

05:02.87

Robert Scheer

Okay, but you're you're the expert here, so let's just cut cut right to the chase.

05:02.96

ray mcgovern

It was,

05:07.19

Robert Scheer

What did you make of it?

05:07.56

ray mcgovern

okay.

05:08.47

Robert Scheer

What what positions did he outline? And i wanted to ask you about a ah very good historian at the University of Wisconsin. We posted his article on on Shear Post this morning, Alfred McCoy, and he...

05:23.24

Robert Scheer

picks up on Trump's having talked about McKinley as a great unrecognized president and so forth. And McKinley is the author of of probably the rawest kind of imperialism.

05:35.91

Robert Scheer

that America had, and some people think it didn't last very long in that raw form. It exposed too much. but But is this speech, I mean, you're you're an expert now. I mean, I don't care.

05:47.48

Robert Scheer

The polls can make people get it wrong, but you briefed American presidents and on what they should say and not say. what what First of all, what what does the speech really say of significance about foreign policy and domestic policy?

06:01.25

Robert Scheer

Just give us your summary of of what you got from here, from it.

06:05.32

ray mcgovern

On domestic policy, it says, look, God has anointed me to do what needs to be done. Witness the fact that God saved me in Butler, Pennsylvania.

06:16.87

ray mcgovern

Now, this business about abroad. Well, McKinley, as you mentioned, Bob, is the worst possible imperialist president that you could you could cite. I mean, he's the guy, the end of the 19th century, ah started reaching out to Cuba and Philippines and Hawaii. He got us into an imperial mode. So here's heres Trump sort of, well, don I can't believe that he doesn't know this. So he's just saying, look, I'm going to be just like McKinley.

06:49.44

ray mcgovern

And after I die, they're going to name a mountain after me, too. Okay, well, maybe they'll put me up at Mount Rushmore. The guy is megalomania guy. And not only that,

07:05.68

ray mcgovern

you know, the word sociopath comes to mind. And when I say that, I'm saying that he doesn't really care very much about people, okay? Okay.

07:18.40

ray mcgovern

Now, witness the fact that by closing down USAID,

07:25.80

ray mcgovern

hundreds of thousands of people are going to get TB, they're going to get polio, they're going to die of malnutrition. And that was documented by USAID specialists before he and Musk shut that down. Okay?

07:42.50

ray mcgovern

So yeah, there was ah money devoted to overturning governments. I'm glad that's gone, but I'm not glad that that people take delight in the fact that people less less privileged than we are going to die now. Little kids are going to die from TB, from all kinds of preventable diseases because we are not funding these health programs, which John Kennedy, to his credit, started and now has petered out. So I guess going back to God, you know, this God. Well, my like my pastor says, you know, your God just may be my God's worst enemy.

08:21.96

ray mcgovern

My God is not a God of vengeance. My God is a God of justice. And in the biblical sense of justice, it's not American kind of justice, okay?

08:31.75

Robert Scheer

Okay, but Ray, this is not about your relation to God.

08:32.75

ray mcgovern

Okay.

08:35.55

Robert Scheer

It's about what is in this speech that has significance for policy and where the world is headed. And you've briefed presidents before. So i want to know if you had briefed Trump and he gave this speech, ah what broke? Well, first of all, is there any new ground? what Is the foreign policy different than you expected a week ago?

08:59.40

Robert Scheer

when A lot has been changing.

08:59.85

ray mcgovern

Interesting.

09:01.28

Robert Scheer

ah what you know Let's take it on Ukraine.

09:01.76

ray mcgovern

yeah

09:03.56

Robert Scheer

Let's take it on Gaza. ah How do you read it?

09:08.88

ray mcgovern

Well, first on Gaza.

09:12.90

ray mcgovern

And you know, Bob, your concept of God is really important because if you think God approves of genocide in Gaza, you've got a very strange God indeed.

09:26.00

ray mcgovern

What he said about the Middle East was in these words, quote, it's a rough neighborhood, actually, period, end quote.

09:37.37

ray mcgovern

I don't know how to read that. He certainly didn't want to touch what Netanyahu is about to do in the Middle East because he doesn't know how to prevent it. He's not going to be able to prevent it.

09:48.99

ray mcgovern

We're going to get a continuation of the genocide. And do not blanch before that word, this is not the God that anointed any of us who seek justice first and foremost.

09:58.21

Robert Scheer

Okay, I understand. But you're not the preacher today. it Sorry to be interrupting. But, you know, ah some people call ah Biden genocide, Joe, I think you did once or twice, maybe I'm wrong.

10:11.16

Robert Scheer

But certainly, there's genocide going on now, in relation to Gaza and and the Palestinians, ah this did not start with Trump. In fact, there's less killing at the moment. There's a ceasefire. There's some exchange of hostages. So, you know, I really want to... Okay, so on on Gaza, you're saying it's basically a continuation of what Trump is doing. You think Netanyahu will control the show and so forth.

10:40.32

Robert Scheer

What about Ukraine? Is he now... ah There was a tension with Zelensky. You're quite expert on the whole Russia situation. That's what you covered in the CIA.

10:51.14

Robert Scheer

ah Is he backing off now? Is he is the peace initiative still in play? what What hints were there or statements in this speech that are relevant here?

11:01.93

ray mcgovern

what he said here, that I just got a letter from Vladimir Zelensky. ah You know, we spent $350 billion dollars to help him.

11:13.81

ray mcgovern

um And, you know, to put that into perspective, says Trump, ah this a big ocean separating us from Ukraine.

11:25.46

ray mcgovern

um Earlier today, When Zelensky wrote the letter, he said Ukraine is ready to come to the negotiating table as soon as possible to bring lasting peace forever.

11:39.00

ray mcgovern

Wow, way to go, Trump. Well, let's see how that works out. In other words, Trump has scared the bejesus out of Zelensky. Whether Zelensky can be permitted by his pro-Nazi followers or accomplices,

11:55.40

ray mcgovern

To come to the table on anything close to Russian terms is something that needs to be examined. It's not likely. What else? Here's what Trump says about peace.

12:08.72

ray mcgovern

ah Regarding the the agreement on minerals and security, ah Ukraine is ready to sign that at any time, says Zelensky. Whoa.

12:19.31

ray mcgovern

Well, what's that going to do? You know, is that going to get the U.S. involved in exploiting minerals and rare earth materials in your Ukraine? God knows. I don't think there's much to that at all. The Russians have already said, look, we control a lot of that stuff already and we have our own. You want to do a deal? We'll do a deal.

12:40.66

ray mcgovern

I don't think that's, I think that's pretty much stillborn. Finally, we have had serious discussions with Russians. Then I receive strong signals that Zelensky now is ready for peace. Wouldn't that be beautiful? Wouldn't that be beautiful?

12:59.88

ray mcgovern

Wouldn't that be beautiful? And he turns to Pocahontas. Senator Elizabeth Warren. He points right there and says, Pocahontas, you don't want that, do you? You you want a continuation of the war.

13:14.36

ray mcgovern

And sheep yeah camera catchers are saying, yes. So ah Trump was at his demagogic best. I found it distasteful from all kinds of perspectives, but ah the the takeaway here, Bob, is that he has the divine right of kings now. 76% of the American people think that was a great speech.

13:39.50

ray mcgovern

He can do, or he thinks he can do, what the hell he wants, and when you looked at those applause, you know, It looked like like the old Soviet Union.

13:50.34

ray mcgovern

after a After ah a Soviet leader would make a speech, the whole text would be in Pravda and Izvestia. I used to have to read it. There were no translations then, okay? at the end of each At the end of about every third paragraph, it would say, Bornei aplodismenti vso stoyat.

14:12.39

ray mcgovern

over in the ah Stormy applause. Everyone stands. Well, Congress outdid itself, at least the Republicans did yesterday. border near upladimente They all stood up. i I didn't count the times. There was too too many to count. I can't count that that high.

14:31.16

ray mcgovern

So there's a demagogue. he He says that he has the power to do this because God anointed him. This is relevant, Bob. when you When you claim God's on your side, well, that's happened before, right?

14:42.74

ray mcgovern

Gott mit uns, right? That was what the Germans had on their buckles as they went into Ukraine, into Russia, and into other places.

14:50.17

Robert Scheer

What was the translation?

14:50.37

ray mcgovern

So

14:53.72

ray mcgovern

Gott mit uns means God is with us. He's on our side, okay? So...

14:59.17

Robert Scheer

that buckle That buckle is not often mentioned. of But I i certainly i really have thought a lot about this issue. But this was on the buckle of all of the German troops?

15:14.77

ray mcgovern

It was on the SS buckles. I'm not sure whether it was on the Bundeswehr itself, but, you know, it doesn't really matter.

15:17.30

Robert Scheer

Oh.

15:21.37

ray mcgovern

They were told that God has quit them, and that's why it's important. Once you invoke the Almighty, so yeah, yeah, he not only approves our plans, but he gave all that real estate that Israel claimed to Israel. It's written in the book, okay?

15:37.50

ray mcgovern

Well, that's a perverse interpretation of the book.

15:39.57

Robert Scheer

I didn't expect to actually go into this, but let me point out to people listening, you are benefited from a Jesuit Catholic education, right? Uh,

15:51.26

ray mcgovern

Yeah, I i guess so when I went to study theology in college, that was old school. During the 80s, I took a gentleman's master's degree at Georgetown University from Jesuits just back from San Salvador, okay?

16:07.77

ray mcgovern

There I learned what it's supposed to be like if you're supposed to be heeding the counsel of a God of justice, justice this being giving priority to the poor.

16:22.00

ray mcgovern

to the refugee, to the widow, to the orphan. And that's not what Trump is all about. And that's why it's relevant to me personally, Bob.

16:32.68

ray mcgovern

That's the kind of God that I believe cares about people. It's not the God that is vengeful and that was so so exactly exemplified by not only what Trump said, but his whole manner and of course,

16:48.39

ray mcgovern

this the born applaudissements, it was quite a spectacle.

16:53.96

Robert Scheer

So you really were scared by this speech. It showed you a sign of not only a sign of ah Trump, but a sign of the country and the acceptance of this.

17:05.15

ray mcgovern

you

17:06.05

Robert Scheer

that If I'm reading between the lines here, you are much more frightened and you about what's going on than you were, say, 40 hours ago or 24 hours ago, whatever it's called.

17:15.95

ray mcgovern

I am, mostly because although the public response was utterly predictable, it's still depressing in the extreme. In the old Soviet Union, the Communist Party, the Soviet Union, was completely in charge.

17:32.44

ray mcgovern

They had interlocking directorates with the government. They were completely in charge. Now, the Republican Party, headed by Trump, is completely charge.

17:43.84

ray mcgovern

in charge of the executive, of the legislative, of the judicial branches of government. So, even though there's supposed to be a division of powers, Trump's got it.

17:56.52

ray mcgovern

And worst off, I'll just say one more time, he thinks that God saved him in Butler, Pennsylvania to do what the hell he wants, and that means cutting aid to people who will now starve who people who now die of preventable diseases.

18:12.41

ray mcgovern

And he can do this because Elon Musk is helping him and everybody applauds. Now, as far as the the drama last night, my God, there was, I mean, it was a TV spectacular.

18:26.66

ray mcgovern

I mean, and With hour and a half, an hour and 45 minutes, i mean, you didn't get bored. There was this, there was this, the other, and and all kinds of very cynical manipulation of people who suffered the loss of family members.

18:41.08

ray mcgovern

I found it very distasteful, but, you know, that's me, that's domestic policy politics.

18:45.32

Robert Scheer

Yeah, but I'm relying on your expertise here and and not as a theater critic, but in terms of what moves policy, how does it sold to the public? I mean, that's the business that you really know as much as anybody. i I'm likely to talk to maybe anybody in the country and that you were there briefing the president and the executive branch.

19:11.39

Robert Scheer

You're telling me that you are convinced that Donald Trump is driven by this religious ah fervor that centers on his message for God more than, ah well, the people you talk Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, ah Ronald Reagan. They all involved, invoked a deity. They all claim, you know, God blesses America and a special place, right, Reagan, right? and thought we were the city on the hill and so forth. Are you actually telling me that Ronald Reagan, who I thought it was you know, ah really more on the cynical side when it comes to religion, he's not a person who seems to be particularly observant or mindful of of of these concerns, doesn't seem to have benefited from your kind of religious structured education. After all, you spent your whole life within a Catholic education

20:08.77

Robert Scheer

until you graduated. And I'm not putting that down. I'm just saying people who do that at least have a seriousness of purpose when they talk about religion.

20:19.29

Robert Scheer

I thought the popular view is that ah Trump, you know, he he went his own way. Let's put it crudely. He was out to and embellish himself and so forth. And he only invokes religion when it's convenient.

20:34.56

Robert Scheer

You're now telling me you think he's really believes that he's been chosen and he's got to act accordingly.

20:41.77

ray mcgovern

No, he's just exploiting it, okay?

20:44.62

Robert Scheer

oh. oh

20:45.10

ray mcgovern

whether he believes Whether he believes that God saved him in but Pennsylvania or not, ah he knows that he turned his head at the last minute. Now, did God say, hey, hey Donald, turn your head at the last minute?

20:57.43

ray mcgovern

No, I don't think so, okay? He's exploiting it in a way that's so crass that dwarfs former exploitation by former presidents.

21:06.24

Robert Scheer

I got that. But if if if things don't work out, for instance, if he gets us into wars ah when he's promised he wouldn't, if if inflation does not get controlled, if the good jobs don't come back despite tariffs, if we go into a ah depressed economy because of those tariffs, there's, there's ah you know, the American public Yes, invokes religion in all sorts of ways to win a football game, to win a bet and everything else.

21:34.92

Robert Scheer

But when the statistics come up cold and hard that you don't have, jobs didn't come here as a result of the tariffs or the tariffs...

21:46.08

Robert Scheer

ah hurt the economy, right? Or he's getting us into wars or that the situation, say, in relation to Israel and West Bank, it's messier and that you have to send U.S. troops or get involved or the situation in Ukraine. That's what I'm really asking you about.

22:03.26

Robert Scheer

I think, yes, a speech will have an effect. But, you know, ah even Hitler, had to produce some decent cars like the Volkswagen. He had to actually get things to work. He had to deal with inflation.

22:16.83

Robert Scheer

ah So I'm just asking you if you're alarmed, and it's clear, I've interviewed quite a few times now, and this is a different Ray McGovern. ah you You really think you saw something very dangerous, frightening, and this is you know is not an interview we would have done even 24 hours ago.

22:36.57

Robert Scheer

Am I misreading you?

22:39.50

ray mcgovern

I think so, Bob. Again, what I'm saying is that he masterfully exploited his divine right of kings, so to speak, by saying once again, my life was saved for a very good reason.

22:55.78

ray mcgovern

I was saved by God to make America great again. And I believe that. I do. Thank you. Thank you very much. And you know, Bob, just as a kind of a codicil here, God bless America.

23:10.39

ray mcgovern

That is completely anti-biblical. You don't use the imperative voice with God. There's nothing in Scripture that says you can order God to do this or that to bless these people or bless those.

23:23.68

ray mcgovern

So people don't realize this. But um what he ought to already say is, you know, God bless this world, all the people in it, without exception, not just America, not just Israel, not just me,

23:37.71

ray mcgovern

but everyone. And of course, that's not the American tradition. And as long as American exceptionalism, so codified last night by Trump himself, prevails, most Americans kids will say, well, yeah, God is blessing us in a special way.

23:54.06

ray mcgovern

And that game is over. We're no longer the superpower. We're going to be challenged by Russia, by China, by all those people in Asia and Africa. The game is up and i don't know how long Trump is going to get, well, this goes to your point, how long he's going to get away with this. But in the interim, I'm scared to death. They'll do crazy things and allow Netanyahu to do crazy things.

24:18.59

ray mcgovern

I think it's better with respect to Ukraine. He's getting some good advice on that. i think there will be peace in Ukraine. So it's a mixed bag, Bob. ah But I see a deranged person who doesn't care about people, ah who's a sociopath, witness what he's doing with aid.

24:34.63

ray mcgovern

I mean, that's really important to me. All the administrators of aid pointed out all the thousands of people who will be affected by the cutoff of medical aid and and all other kinds of things.

24:46.50

ray mcgovern

So, you know, if he's a sociopath with respect to foreign people and people who don't look like us, well, he's going to do the same thing in this country, and the poor will continue to increase.

24:58.38

ray mcgovern

And yeah, I come from a faith perspective. We Catholics brag about what we call the preferential option for the poor, and I'll just spell it out for you in one sentence.

25:09.47

ray mcgovern

The bishop said this 50 years ago, all right? That means... that no one is entitled to amass still more wealth that they don't need while others lack the bare necessities of life.

25:23.00

ray mcgovern

Last time Trump was president, the gap between the haves and the have-nots widened. Now it's going to do the same thing. Now for him to invoke God as approving all this stuff is, in my view, blasphemy.

25:38.25

Robert Scheer

You know, ah it's a sobering, sobering perspective. You haven't been this hard on Trump before. you Well, you saw some contradictions. You thought that he was going to be less willing to get us into wars.

25:56.54

Robert Scheer

He's promised that.

25:56.69

ray mcgovern

Yeah.

25:58.37

Robert Scheer

ah You felt that the Democrats had a lot of responsibility. For instance, income gap really started widening most dramatically under Bill Clinton and his deregulation of Wall Street.

26:11.29

Robert Scheer

ah And, you know, I'm saying this out of respect because I know your opinions are considered. I know you don't just say things, even though I'm not the president and you're not briefing me.

26:23.04

Robert Scheer

I know you're a serious person. And so my takeaway from this conversation, you know, is if Ray McGovern is worried, then I should be worried. And you you saw something in that speech or heard something in that speech.

26:38.33

Robert Scheer

I don't want to misread this, but it seems to me you felt this speech revealed something even more frightening about what's going on than you felt 24 twenty four hours

26:50.98

ray mcgovern

Well, Bob, just to kind of pick up on that, I watched many speeches of Stalin, Khrushchev, Rezhnev.

27:03.35

ray mcgovern

It was sort of like a feedback, a bad memory last night. It was a person who thought he had total power because in his case, the Republican Party, unlike the Communist Party, the Soviet Union, or like it, the Republican in Party had a corner on the power, and it does, and the performance there and the reaction showed me that a ah dangerous Trump with the divine right of kings now will feel empowered to do what the hell he wants, not only abroad,

27:44.60

ray mcgovern

But inside this country, rounding up refugees, rounding up widows and orphans, and that just cuts to the quick. That's not justice.

27:55.24

ray mcgovern

That's not my God. And I'll just repeat my pastor saying, your God might be the worst enemy of my God. Trump's God is the worst enemy of my God.

28:07.97

ray mcgovern

My God.

28:09.08

Robert Scheer

Well, I'm not going to, you know, well let's see what, how it moves, but it's, uh, one of more sobering, not the most sobering conversation I've had some time. So I'm going to wrap it up there and let people respond and, uh, see where it goes.

28:26.75

Robert Scheer

See you next week, Ray, with another one of these, uh, two, uh, old timers from the Bronx, uh, Sure is a not like when Roosevelt was president and I was born. And, you know, you were around then too. So a little bit.

28:43.45

Robert Scheer

All right. ah See you later.

28:45.91

ray mcgovern

Bob, I don't know and don't know how your your family reacted when FDR died.

28:55.28

ray mcgovern

But my dad, the only time I saw him really cry without without being consoled, okay.

29:06.45

ray mcgovern

And he told me very early what it meant. And the Bronx, we used to say, as you may know, but in the Catholic circles, when you are baptized, membership in the Democratic Party and the local union was conferred at baptism, okay?

29:25.43

ray mcgovern

Well, that was because FDR saved all of our derriers, saved our country for God's sake. And my dad said, you know, Democrats care about little people, about young people, about people who are on the outskirts now.

29:42.16

ray mcgovern

That's no longer the case. That's a big great sorrow for me.

29:44.19

Robert Scheer

Well, unfortunately, Ray, unfortunately, unfortunately the unraveling of the Democratic Party's commitment to working people, to ordinary people and so forth, again, it came, yeah, Ronald Reagan certainly went after him, even though his own father had worked in the New Deal and he had said the New Deal saved him.

29:45.96

ray mcgovern

And they're paying the price now for what they've done until now.

30:06.53

ray mcgovern

Thank you.

30:07.48

Robert Scheer

And when I interviewed Ronald Reagan, he told me, At that moment, he still thought he had great admiration for FDR, Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

30:18.55

Robert Scheer

But the fact is, he wanted to unravel the New Deal. And then the guy who really got it done was Bill Clinton. He got it done. He deregulated Wall Street. He reversed the main, you know, Glass-Steagall, the main a restraint on Wall Street greed. It got unleashed.

30:35.35

Robert Scheer

And it was an alliance between the Democrats and Republicans that created this big mess and where the billionaires control everything. And ordinary people feel so frantic. They even find comfort in somebody like Trump, hoping that he's going to make it better.

30:52.05

Robert Scheer

So... Yeah, that's just the most depressing of our conversations. I'm going to stop now or I'm not going to be able to function for the rest the day, but we'll hear what other people think about this.

31:03.62

Robert Scheer

and Yeah, you got...

31:04.18

ray mcgovern

Let me just add a footnote, Bob, if I may. You talk about what FDR did in our country. That's wonderful. That was golden. and Now, Clinton, in contrast, not only screwed up our country and economically, but screwed up our country vis-a-vis the Soviet Union, later Russia. okay Now, how did he do that?

31:29.24

ray mcgovern

31:41.37

ray mcgovern

two thousand that's what That's what the deal was. They exploited it. They worked with oligarchs east and west to to draw all the riches they could out of soviet Russian resources.

31:56.35

ray mcgovern

32:21.10

ray mcgovern

Four years, actually. 91 to 95. ninety five My God, they were dying in the street. That's why Putin came in. That's That's why he worked this miracle.

32:30.13

Robert Scheer

Wait minute, I'm missing this. Ray, I'm missing this statistic. You said the average age that they...

32:37.31

ray mcgovern

32:41.71

Robert Scheer

Yeah.

32:46.98

ray mcgovern

I'm sorry, i got that wrong before you.

32:47.17

Robert Scheer

Ah.

32:49.74

ray mcgovern

33:03.33

ray mcgovern

Now, that speaks volumes of what happened. in And that was when all of a sudden Yeltsin had to run for re-election. And who won re-election for Yeltsin?

33:16.04

ray mcgovern

It's very clear. U.S. money, the Harvard boys, and the U.S. Treasury people. So, you know, if you're looking at Putin, he watched all this, and he saw what happened.

33:28.14

ray mcgovern

Instead, in spite of that, he reached out to the United States, wanted to join NATO. x big you know He suggested that to Bill Clinton, and Clinton says, join NATO? You, Russians?

33:40.41

ray mcgovern

Yeah, join NATO. He said, well, I'll get back to you on that. He goes back that evening and says, well, you know, my team...

33:45.49

Robert Scheer

all right

33:47.18

ray mcgovern

and My team says that's a that's a no-go.

33:49.75

Robert Scheer

Okay, so we got that.

33:50.09

ray mcgovern

You can't join nature.

33:50.99

Robert Scheer

So you would think the one area that Raymond Cameron would still think Trump might be bringing about some progress based on what you've said over the years was in this negotiation with Putin, which after all is the other nation that has all those nuclear bombs that can destroy all life on this planet.

34:09.67

Robert Scheer

Now, others are catching up. China's coming along. But still, this relationship with Russia, we haven't talked about that. But did you find any reassurance in the speech that he's actually going to try to right be successful now and maybe getting peace in relation to Ukraine and Russia?

34:29.10

ray mcgovern

Well, I didn't meet need much reassurance in the speech. His actions speak louder than his words. There was one sentencing. Oh, yeah, we're also negotiating with Russia. We're making that better.

34:40.60

ray mcgovern

And they are. And, Bob, this is big. okay This is really big. But I guess personally, when I see our country enabling, arming genocide and a ah president that thinks that God has kind of offered or authorized him to do that, that to that puts in bas-relief what people who care about justice, people who care about sociopaths being president should be concerned about. So that was my lesson from the speech.

35:15.35

ray mcgovern

He's doing very good things with respect to Russia. I don't know how much that will carry over with the people he has now and in advising him, how much it will carry over to Israel and Gaza. That's a completely different kettle of fish.

35:31.64

ray mcgovern

i'm less I'm much more pessimistic on that. And that's what we're doing. Genocide, I'll say one more time. Genocide. I never thought i would be an American citizen living in a time when my country is participating and enabling an army.

35:46.90

Robert Scheer

And the genocide you're referring to is is in the Mideast or it's also with Ukraine or I'm a...

35:47.08

ray mcgovern

Genocide.

35:52.32

ray mcgovern

In Gaza.

35:53.62

Robert Scheer

cause Okay, so yeah. But, you know, I'm through playing devil's advocate. At least there is a ceasefire source. At least there has been an exchange of hostages.

36:05.93

ray mcgovern

This week.

36:06.20

Robert Scheer

But, huh?

36:07.56

ray mcgovern

Tune in next week, Bob.

36:08.86

Robert Scheer

Yeah, well, that's why we talked to you, Ray. You got this expertise. Anybody who spent time briefing Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan and now is worried.

36:21.89

Robert Scheer

You're more worried than you were by those three guys, right?

36:25.41

ray mcgovern

Yeah, and just as a sort of an aside, Bob, some people realized that I wasn't picked to brief Republican presidents. It was just a matter of coincidence that I was at that level of my career where when Nixon came in, i was on the briefing staff, Ford, and then i was senior enough to conduct one-on-one briefings of Ronald Reagan's chief president.

36:50.83

ray mcgovern

National Security officials, including the Vice President, Secretary of State, Defense, and so forth.

36:56.05

Robert Scheer

yeah

36:56.06

ray mcgovern

37:09.14

Robert Scheer

No, I got that. and I'm not claiming that you were in his ear all the time. But I mean, you're familiar with three presidents. You were in the CIA as the head of the Russia desk, the Soviet Union desk, for a while.

37:26.60

Robert Scheer

And for 27 years, you tried to inform American foreign policy. And you had certainly as much ah familiarity with what the executive branch was considering, was up to, what was doing. I mean you were there.

37:42.94

Robert Scheer

I'm not claiming that you were running the country. ah Far from it. But the fact is, for you to be as worried as you are now, I'm just taking this out away from this interview or discussion, ah is really quite troubling to me.

37:58.61

Robert Scheer

ah because, you know, after all, you are trying to be objective about Trump. You were presenting, you know, well, on the one hand, he's not this and that.

38:09.63

Robert Scheer

Now you seem to have gone over to this view that we have a nightmarish tyranny in the offering.

38:23.60

ray mcgovern

Well, for the simple people abroad and in our country, it will be a nightmare, particularly in view of the fact that Trump thinks he's ordained by God to do things that an Old Testament God may have ordained, but not the God of love, the God of compassion, the God that cares about the little people.

38:47.27

ray mcgovern

And that's the one that I think prevails. I had a Jesuit tell me one time, look, Here's my theology. One sentence. It all depends on who you think God is and how God feels when little people are pushed around.

39:04.04

ray mcgovern

Whoa! That spoke to me. That's my theology as well. Little people are being pushed around throughout the world, even in this country. It's a bad scene when everybody applauds that.

39:19.78

Robert Scheer

All right. We'll end on that now. And I want to thank our executive producer, Joshua Shearer, Diego Ramos, who writes the intro, Max Jones, who does the video, the JKW Foundation for supplying some support, funding, and in memory of Gene Stein, a very independent and important writer, and Integrity Media with Len Goodman, an attorney in Chicago, who will give us also some additional support and involved in supporting more independent and free journalism.

39:53.67

Robert Scheer

See you next week with another edition of my conversation with Ray McGovern. See you, Ray. Take care.

40:00.11

ray mcgovern

Thanks, Bob.