How do we know which way is the correct way to God? Is religion just a manmade concept? We explore these questions in this week's episode of Our Hope Podcast 🎙, featuring Feinberg Center professor, Dr. Rich Flashman. Listen to this episode now!

Welcome to Our Hope,

a production of Chosen

People Ministries.

On this podcast you will hear

inspiring testimonies,

learn

about Messianic apologetics

and discover God's plan

for Israel and you.

Wherever you're listening,

we hope you lean in,

listen closely and be blessed.

What is religion?

The dictionary defines

it as the belief in

and worship of God

or the supernatural.

It is a commitment

to a set of beliefs

and practices

generally agreed upon

by several people or groups.

It is easy to see

how religion can be

perceived as manmade.

Some would question,

“How can we know that

a religion is true,

if it was just agreed upon

by a group of people?”

And “is there really a God

or is this deity also manmade?”

These questions are

helpful to leading

us to find truth.

Today, there are many

different religions

¬– Judaism, Christianity,

Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism;

these are just the major world

religions among the estimated

10,000 distinct

religions worldwide.

While some would say that

every religion teaches you

the same thing –

how to be a good person,

whether it is

to account for sin

or to please a god –

many of these religions

have very different

core beliefs.

If that’s the case,

can they all be right

or are they all wrong?

Joining us today to discuss

this topic is the branch leader

of our southern Connecticut

branch, Dr. Rich Flashman.

And now, I introduce

the host of Our Hope

Podcast, Abe Vazquez.

Hello, everyone and

welcome to Our Hope.

My name is Abe Vazquez,

I'm so happy you're

joining us today.

I'm talking about

a very interesting question

that I believe

many people have thought about

once in their life even well,

"well-seasoned believers" have

this thought has

probably crossed their mind.

Is any of this real is

is religion manmade?

Those types of questions

may have floated

across your head.

And today in this episode,

we want to answer that question

specifically, "Is

religion manmade?"

And I'm very excited

to have back, Dr.

Rich Flashman.

Rich, welcome to Our Hope.

We're so happy

you're able to join us

on your sabbatical,

so we appreciate

you taking a brief

break from your rest

to join us.

Thanks very

much for having me.

Glad to be here.

So, like I mentioned,

this isn't your first time.

So we have a

different question.

We already know

what kind of food you like.

What do you most

look forward to

now that things are kind

of returning back

to the way they were before?

Well,

going to Disneyland.

No, just kidding.

Actually,

my wife and I love to travel.

So so we're we're looking

looking forward to

traveling opening up

and being able to

get around a little bit

and we actually have a

trip to Israel

planned in November.

So hopefully,

hopefully, we'll be

able to go and do that

and take some folks there.

So so we're excited about the

the opportunities,

the world opening up I hope.

Now,

as you know,

all these different

variants come around.

Right. Right.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, yes,

travel is definitely,

I think, on a lot of people's

minds right now.

Everyone just wants to

get out the house and

explore the world.

I think

I think we've realized

life is short.

You know, this this if

if we learned anything

over this past years

that life is very short.

And who knew that the last time

we gathered,

that would be the last time

we gathered right?

In churches and in work

and things like that.

We didn't think that

would be the last time

we saw our co-workers

or our

fellow believers in church.

And it was, you know,

for a very long

time, 15 months.

And so,

can't wait

to see people's faces.

I think that's what

I'm looking forward to.

You know,

people's faces with no mask.

With, with the Zoom

and the Internet and all that.

You know, I've been

meeting with some

my co-workers,

you know, for 15

months, you know,

and seeing them just

about every every day,

every other day, you know.

And so when I finally

saw them in person,

it was like, oh,

nothing, nothing unusal.

I've been seeing

you for 15 months.

Right.

Rich:

The miracle of this technology

has really bridged,

you know, helped us

to bridge through

this, you know, so

I'm very pleased,

very happy about that.

So thank you

again for being here.

One of the reasons

we asked you to join us today

is because in your

I found Shulem testimony,

we know you had some questions

about religion and truth.

So briefly,

could you share some of

your thoughts about religion

before you accept Yeshua?

Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

I grew up in a

reformed Jewish home in

Newton, Massachusetts.

And it was a very,

very proudly Jewish home.

And I grew up in

a Jewish community,

but it was a symbolic form

of the religion.

You know,

we practice

the symbols of Judaism.

Didn't didn't actually practice

as a religious Jew

would, you know,

keeping keeping Shabbat

properly and, you know, and

keeping kosher

and that sort of

thing, you know.

But it was more

it was more of a

symbolic version of that.

We were in our orientation

was very secular.

But I knew that there had to be

something more than than

just the secular world.

You know,

my father was a materialist.

He believed when you're dead,

you're dead, six feet under.

That's a you know,

you know, that's all.

But I never really

fully bought into that.

Because I always sensed

there was something more,

you know, something,

something even greater

than ourselves out there.

And I don't think I'm alone.

I think most of the world

senses that, you know.

Yeah.

Almost every culture,

you know, captures

that in their belief

system and so forth.

So, so I think that

what I was feeling

was probably what

millions have felt,

you know,

that

there was something greater

than themselves out there.

They're not sure what it was

and not sure how

to connect with it.

You know,

but in that sort of way

was I felt that that

God was very distant,

that there probably was a God,

but He was very, very distant.

I had no real connection,

you know, to Him.

You know, in a way of

in the way of having

a relationship with Him.

But I, but I wonder,

I think deep down,

I wanted something, you know.

There was

a connection with the numerous

the connection with that,

which is, you know,

beyond us and above us.

So that's that's sort

of where I was at.

So, yeah, I mean, for

religion to exist

and you kind of alluded

to this because,

my question about

religion, automatically,

you think about a God,

you think about God.

Right?

Who, you know this figure

as part

of this religion, right?

So for a religion to exist,

there usually needs to be a

"God" or "deity".

So to help us slowly

unpack the larger

question at hand,

first, let's ask,

can God be man-made?

And when I say God

in this question,

I mean the one true God,

can our one true

God be man-made?

Rich" Well,

the answer to that one,

I think is an easy no.

You know. You know. You

know, man, that man

doesn't make the true God.

You know, God makes man,

you know.

You know, so I mean, that's it.

You're talking about sort of,

you know,

do people make gods

in their own image? Yes.

You know,

that happens all the time.

You know, I mean, I know

thousands and thousands

of different versions of God,

you know,

and they can't all be right,

Right.

They can't all be wrong,

but they can't all be right.

You know,

because they contradict

each other, you know.

So, so. So, yes, I think no.

I think

when it comes to

what we believe,

as you say, the true God,

I said, no, of course

we cannot make Him, you know.

But but He

of course, He makes us,

you know, and that's,

but that is the fallacy

that unfortunately

human history is filled

with, replete with,

man making god,

you know, as you say.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, Rich, how do

we know if God exists or not?

I think that's a

really important question.

And, you know, there are two

two basic approaches to that.

Either we apprehend God

with our rational mind

and we reason our way to God,

and the problem with that,

of course, is, is that you get,

you know, a billion people

reasoning their way to God.

You're going to have a

lot of different answers.

You're going to have thousands

of different answers to that.

And so the second way

and the way I think is really

the only way

is God revealing Himself to us.

So either you reason

your way to God

or God makes Himself known

to us.

And what I believe is

that God has made Himself

known to us in two

very important ways.

First way is through creation

that God has made Himself

known to us through the

created thing He's shown

by creation, that

He is a powerful God,

that He can spin the planets

and the solar systems

and the you and the

you know, and the galaxies

and so forth, and create life

and then create

intricate human life,

you know, on earth

and and so forth.

So, so creation is a

marvelous miracle

and speaks

of a powerful creator.

There really is no other,

there really is no other

answer to how we got here,

except that there is a creator.

Evolution begs the question,

where did matter and energy

come from, you know.

You know, so, so so

even our best answer,

you know, lacks,

I mean we say the Big Bang.

I said, well,

where did the matter of energy

for the Big Bang come from?

You know, if

we're going to say that,

you know, there's

no other answer,

except that there is

an uncaused cause,

there was

there was a being

greater than creation

who who

spoke and brought

things into existence.

So that's what

generally we call

general revelation,

is this from creation,

you know, shows us.

Also shows,

I think that God is good.

I think there's a goodness

aspect

to the general revelation

that that that He's given us

human beings,

you know, all that

He has given to us,

you know, all the

ability to reason and

and to experience

all kinds of emotions

and to connect with

Him and so forth and

to have a more, a more

rational approach.

I think I think that we

we are very unique

and also that He's given us a

a place

we can live

a good place to live

that provides food,

you know and air and water

and you know,

and everything that

we need for life.

So, so there's the goodness

aspect in creation

that I think.

But creation is not enough.

You know,

if

we're really going

to understand God

then we have to know

more than just creation.

How do we know

what His purpose is?

What

what's the meaning of life?

How do we have a

relationship with Him?

You know,

we don't know that

from creation.

And so there has to be

what we call

a special revelation.

And I was struggling with this.

And if I can just

tell a brief story

about my own life.

Yeah, go for it.

My own search.

I was

I was in the

throes of searching

and trying to figure out,

you know, is is there a God?

And if there is a God,

you know,

how can we know who He is

and how can we connect

with Him?

And all of the same questions

that we're talking

about right now.

You know,

and it was in this

period of search

in my life after college,

right up to college.

And

and I

in that process of that time,

I was purchasing a car

from a friend of mine,

actually a Ford Pinto

and not the exploding kind,

no the other kind.

And and so

and so I went to

pick up the Pinto

in the parking lot of this

apartment complex.

And I get to the

glove compartment

I opened it up and

I pull out an owner's manual.

And I started flipping

through the owner's manual,

you know, how to run

and operate the car,

you know,

and I and I was thinking

as I was flipping through,

isn't this nice of

Ford Motor Company

to provide an owner's manual,

you know,

for me to help run the car.

And then it hit me, I said, is

God as nice as Ford

Motor Company?

You know,

that He'd give us

an owner's manual?

You know, you know,

to show us how to live

is He making Himself a secret

or is He a loving guy

who actually wants us

to know Him?

You know, and I determined

that He wants us to know Him

and that He's made Himself

known, and as a Jew,

the first place I looked,

of course, was was

were the Scriptures, you know.

You know, if you're going

to know God, you know,

then the first place

a Jewish person would

look is the

is the Hebrew scriptures,

you know,

and the Jewish scriptures.

And through them,

I didn't have to

look any further.

The profound answers

to these questions

that are found in the scripture

satisfied my soul.

There wasn't,

I need to know what

place to look,

you know, at that point.

We'll be right back.

Shalom, I'm Mitch Glaser,

president of Chosen

People Ministries.

Is it possible

for Jewish people

to believe in Jesus

when there's such a sad history

of Christian antisemitism

that has shaped

Jewish attitudes

towards the gospel?

Well, I know there's hope

because I'm Jewish

and I believe in Jesus.

And I would love to

offer a few suggestions

for reaching Jewish

people personally

with the love of God

through Messiah.

First,

keep your message personal.

You're representing

a person, not a religion.

Second, be

loving, patient and kind

even when they object.

And then finally,

and most importantly, pray,

touching the heart

of your Jewish friend

with the good news of Messiah

will also touch

the very heart of God.

And you can learn more

by visiting Chosen

People Ministries

at chosenpeople.com/radio.

During these difficult

times, we know how hard it is

to hold on to hope,

and we want you to

know that Chosen People

Ministries is here for you.

If you have any prayer

requests, our prayer team

is standing by to receive them.

You can submit your request

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that's chosenpeople.com/pray.

So.

If God exists,

you and I both agree he does.

Does

religion also need to exist?

OK,

so it would seem that

if if God exists,

that that

in that

he wants us to know Him,

you know, that that

seeking for Him and

searching for Him makes sense.

You know,

it would be that

it would be

the right thing to do.

We we need to

we would need to sort of answer

those questions.

And if He is the creator

and He's and He is who He

says He is in scripture, then

sort of entering into a right

relationship with Him

becomes important

to us, you know,

seeking Him out,

understanding Him.

And and

then learning to please Him,

you know, with our lives,

you know,

and whatever that means.

You know,

I think I think in

a broad sense, yeah.

I think I think,

you know, organizing ourselves,

you know, in community to

understand Him and

apply the things we understand

to our lives,

I think makes a lot of sense.

It seems like it's

one of the most

important activities

we can be involved in.

You know, as you said

in the beginning of the

of the podcast, you know,

considering the brevity

of our lives,

you know, we're going to be,

we're going to be

in this relationship

with Him for a long time.

It makes sense to

to to enter into it with wisdom

and faith and and

and honor Him.

You know what is I mean,

according to

what we believe, is

we wouldn't exist

apart from Him, you know.

You know, and so

and so even our

own own existence.

So to to acknowledge this

and to thank Him

seems to be really important.

Yeah,

I like what you said.

You know, just the idea

of kind of organizing

for a community so that we can,

I'm paraphrasing,

but kind of all be

on the same page

in terms of

how to worship, how to

have a relationship with God.

I think that is

really important.

So along those lines,

what is worship and who defines

what worship is?

Good question.

I mean, the word

itself is is to ascribe worth

to to God,

you know, to

basically just reiterate,

you know, or rehearse,

you know, who He is

and what He has done

and what He is doing

in the world.

It's

you know, it's a it's

sort of a rehearsal,

it's sort of it's

sort of teaching our souls.

You know, the value of Him,

in my own understanding,

my own understanding is that,

you know,

we are not

complete apart from Him,

that He that He,

we were made for Him, that

unless we are,

unless we are in right

relationship with Him,

then we're not realizing

the purpose of our existence,

not realizing the

purpose of our being, you know.

So so we're not whole,

you know, if unless

unless we are in a right

relationship with

the one who made us,

you know, there's

there's something

lacking, that's my,

that's my belief.

You know,

because He made us for Himself

and that and that there is

there is no real

satisfaction in life,

even in this broken

world of ours, apart

from being in a right

relationship with Him.

So moving on,

we've kind of laid

the foundation for religion

and explained

some of those things.

You ever drive

and you see somebody

have a bumper sticker

that says co-exist

and it has all the

religion you know,

what is it, symbols

and it spells out co-exist.

When I see that,

it reminds me, OK, yes,

we have to love each other.

We have to respect each other.

You know,

Jesus told us to love,

love one another, right?

So even if we don't agree

with each other,

we should still

love one another.

But at the same time, we know

all of those things

can't be true at the same time.

Right? So, why?

Why is it that all religions

cannot be true at once?

Yeah, well

they contradict each other.

You know,

so if if we believe in logic,

if we believe in

what is known as the law

of non-contradiction,

you know, then then

they all can't be true,

because of the contradictions.

Just take a simple example

of a traditional

Judaism versus

Messianic Judaism.

You know,

we Messianic Jews believe

that Yeshua is the Messiah,

Israel's Messiah.

Many traditional Jews

don't believe that

Yeshua is Israel's Messiah.

You can't

you can't both be Israel's

Messiah and not Israel's

Messiah, at

the exact same time. So,

both things can't be true.

That, that's sort

of what that's about.

And that applies

across the board

and to so many different

areas of theology and so forth.

I mean, people get confused

because most religions

seem to promote a certain,

you know, agreed upon morality.

You know,

they espouse

similar moral teachings

and so forth.

You know, be a nice person,

you know, be polite, you know,

don't don't kill each other.

Don't steal from each other,

you know.

I mean, most most places

adhere to these morals.

People think, oh,

all religions are the same,

you know,

but nothing could

be farther from the truth.

You know,

it may be that that this

this sort of an internal law

that we have of

right and wrong,

you know, but that doesn't mean

that our belief systems

are anywhere near,

you know, similar

to one another.

Especially, you know,

if you're if you're

the creator of the universe

and you want to reveal

yourself a certain way

and people aren't believing

the way

you've made yourself known,

then obviously

there's a real problem

of of truth and untruth.

What I do find interesting

about most religions is

they all have an

opinion about Jesus.

Which is interesting

to me because OK,

so you're not so

you're

so you're saying He existed.

So Rich, could you tell me

what some of these religions

think about Jesus?

What are some of

the disagreements

they have about the

identity of Jesus?

Well, yeah, there

I mean, take again,

the Jewish people, you know,

you know there's this

expression, ten Jews,

eleven opinions.

And so Jews are greatly divided

on the issue of Jesus,

you know.

You know, many secular

Jews would say He's a myth,

you know, or

or He was a good man.

You know, or He was,

maybe He was a

prophet of some kind.

But He was it seems like

He was a tragic figure

who maybe died, you know,

misinformed, you know.

He didn't really need

to die, you know.

You know, you know,

that sort of thing.

So where I grew up

in that in that context,

that was sort of things

that whenever

the topic came up,

people would say,

you know, about Him.

Mostly, they didn't

want to talk about Him,

you know.

You know, religious Jews,

they have some they can have

some pretty tough, tough

things about about Jesus.

You know, He was a deceiver

or that He was a false prophet

or that He was a false Messiah,

that that or that He was

a good Jew

who was misinterpreted

by His followers.

You know, that's

another popular one

that He was just

a regular Jew, you know,

and He was misinterpreted

by His followers.

But but again, as I said

before, most Jews really

don't want to deal with

Jesus.

There are some good

historical reasons for that.

First of all, for some Jews,

it contradicts their

theological position,

you know

and so that's uncomfortable.

But also,

they also unfortunately,

you know, Yeshua is seen as

as the inspiration

for all kinds of persecution

that have happened

to the Jewish people

the past two thousand years

by so many Christians.

So

there's this kind of an animus,

you know, toward him.

And so that's a

that's sort of a

brief, you know,

sort of run-through

of Jewish belief

and the rest of the world

has different opinions.

I know that the Muslims

see Him as a as a prophet,

not the Son of God, of course.

But He's a prophet

Right.

I think I think in

Hinduism, He's

probably viewed as a, you know,

a guru of some kind,

you know, and fitting

into their culture

and their philosophy

and so forth.

So there's this I guess

there's all kinds of

you know,

you know, as you said,

understandings of Jesus.

I like what C.S.

Lewis said, though.

The one thing

you can't say about

about Yeshua

is that He's a good man because

good men don't say

the things

He said about Himself.

You know,

He said He was the way

the truth and the life

and no one comes to the Father

except through Him.

You know, He said He was

God in the flesh, basically.

You know,

"I and the Father are one",

you know.

And so Lewis said that

a person, a man who would say

something like that

is either a liar, you know,

whose source of truth

comes from the pit of hell.

You know, He's a demon

or He's a lunatic.

You know that that He's

on the level of a man

who calls himself

a poached egg,

you know, or He's exactly

who He says He is.

The Lord.

Right.

So let's keep going there

based on scripture.

Who is Yeshua?

Wow,

that is such an

exciting question.

It thrills my soul,

you know, to

to even think about that.

You know, you follow

just the Hebrew scriptures.

You know,

He is the seed of the woman

who crushes the head

of the serpent.

You know, He's

the seed of Abraham

who is going to come

and bless the entire world.

You know,

He is the coming King from the

from the tribe of Judah.

You know, on on whom

the obedience of the nations

will be His.

You know, He's the

prophet like Moses

who is to come.

He's the star of Jacob.

He's the scepter out of Israel,

He is the ruler of Jacob

who will destroy His enemies.

You know,

He's the son of David.

You know, He's the redeemer.

You know, whom

Job is going to see

standing on the earth,

you know. You know, He's

the Son of God, He's

the anointed one,

who is going to rule

with a rod of iron.

You know,

it says in scripture, "And

then the nations are going

to submit to Him."

You know,

He's the servant of the Lord,

He is the suffering servant.

You know, He's the

substitutionary sacrifice for

for all mankind.

Should I go on Abe?

How much longer have I got?

You know, I can keep on going.

I love that.

You know,

there's something,

you're going to start

having me preach here.

He died

for the sins of mankind,

delivers Israel.

He's the glorious Son of Man.

He is the sovereign power.

He's

the Son of Man who comes in

sovereign power

and sovereign dominion

and who the nations

are going to worship.

He is the son born onto us,

who was a wonderful counselor,

mighty God, everlasting

Father, the Prince of Peace,

and whom His government

and the increase of His

government in peace

will never end. I can go on.

Do you want me to?

The Lamb of God who takes away

the sins of the world.

I think we get the point.

I'm sorry.

You got me so excited.

So if Jesus, Yeshua is

who He says He is,

what does that mean

for those who believe?

Well,

it's pretty impactful.

It's a pretty incredible thing.

It means first

the forgiveness of our sins.

We believe He is

our sacrificial substitute.

That He died in our place,

that He paid for our sins,

you know that our sins

are paid for now

and we don't

and that

we never have to pay for

the wrath of God

has been taken by Him.

And so we never

have to experience

the wrath of God

ourselves for our sin.

I mean, that's that's

a good stop right there,

but it doesn't stop there,

you know.

He also gives us

the Holy Spirit,

the Ruach Hakodesh who lives

within us and empowers

us to live a life

pleasing to God.

You know, He

gives us His wisdom.

We live this life and we

live life with wisdom now,

because we know who He is

and the truth of

His word in our life,

and then when we die,

we go to be with Him forever.

He resurrects our bodies

and we get to live

with Him forever.

We'll have, we'll have

an eternity to discover

infinity. It'll be amazing.

We're going to rule and reign,

I don't even know

what that means?

We're going to rule

and reign with Him forever.

It's repeated

a number of times,

you know,

and we're going to

be in His presence,

you know, and

physical presence,

you know, forever.

It's going to be amazing.

It's going to be exciting.

It's going to be dynamic.

So, personally speaking,

how did you realize that

there is truth in

following Yeshua?

Yeah, you know,

I was I was I was searching,

I guess, for a long time,

I guess even from a kid,

I guess.

You know,

I went to college with a lot

with lots of questions,

you know,

and I think I've

shared my story

before with you, Abe

that you know that

when I was in college,

I got involved right away

in the social sciences

and in political science

and economics and sociology.

And and they basically taught

that those disciplines

basically taught

that Man was a social being,

and that he was corrupted by

corrupt

institutions and

corrupt, corrupt

mores in society.

And if we change society,

we can change people

because people

are social beings

and we'll make a new Man

by a more actualized experience

in society.

And so I bought into that.

I was a theoretical Marxist for

for about three years,

ended up doing a

political internship

in Washington, D.C.

and came away from

that experience, realizing

that Marxism couldn't

possibly work

because the problem

wasn't in society

and culture,

the problem was

in the human heart

and the problem

was in my heart.

And I knew that something

was wrong with me,

you know, and that began,

and then went back to school

for my final year in college.

And I changed my major.

I got out of the social thought

and political economy

and I got into

I took a lot of business

courses, started

a business after college.

But the questions nevertheless,

these questions that I thought

I had answered came back to me

and a thought

occurred to me, "If there's

no God, there's no hope."

And so I began to search.

And in that search,

I came across the 53rd

chapter of Isaiah,

and I read that for

the first time in my life

and I said, what is

Yeshua doing in my Bible?

And that's my Bible, Isaiah

is my prophet and his

talking about Yeshua.

And it blew my mind.

And I was

I was scared to death,

you know, because

in about a three-month period,

I went from, OK,

He might be the Messiah, He's

possibly the Messiah,

probably the Messiah.

OK, He's the Mesiah.

You know, and and

then I got scared,

you know, so

I was a secret believer

about a year, you know.

And then on April 30th, 1980,

at Temple Sinai in

Marblehead, Massachusetts,

the Lord revealed Himself

to me in a vision

and my life

has never been the same.

So to wrap things

up,

I just have one more

question for you,

"Is religion, Man-made?" Rich:

Go back to your first point,

true religion – no.

Do man make-up religions?

Yes,

you know,

but the true faith is a

faith that has been

has been revealed

to us by our Creator

who loves us

and wants us to be in a

deeply intimate,

personal relationship

with Him, through

Yeshua, our Messiah.

Rich,

thank you so much

for joining us.

We loved to hear your input

and your thoughts.

We hope that as you

go back to sabbatical,

that you will find

not only rest, but inspiration

from the Holy Spirit,

while you're just

taking that

intentional time off.

Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

Great to be here.

Blessings.

In a world where

relativism is popular

and the idea that absolute

truth creates intolerance,

truth is sometimes set aside.

But truth be told,

God’s plan for salvation

is an important topic

to think about.

Religion is only man-made

if there is no true God,

but we would like you

to consider

that there is a true God,

and He is good.

He has an ultimate plan

to reconcile you to Himself

and that plan was to send

His only begotten Son

to die for your sins.

“For God so loved the world,

that He gave His

only begotten Son,

that whoever believes in Him

shall not perish,

but have eternal life.” John

3:16 We are praying

that you will someday

find this truth for yourself.

Thank you for listening

to this week’s

episode of Our Hope,

featuring Chosen

People Ministries’

Southern Connecticut

branch leader, Dr.

Rich Flashman.

This episode was

produced by Nicole Vacca

and written and edited

by Grace Swee.

This episode was

also made possible

thanks to, Dr.

Mitch Glaser and

Kieran Bautista.

I’m Abe Vazquez.

Until next time.

Thanks for listening

to Our Hope.

If you like our show

and want to know more,

check out ourhopepodcast.com

or chosenpeople.com.

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