Build a Business That Works for You (and Your Brain)

Artwork for podcast ADHD-ish (formerly The Driven Woman Entrepreneur)

Episode 209 • 7th May 2024 • ADHD-ish (formerly The Driven Woman Entrepreneur) • Diann Wingert

H: So this is a conversation that I have been looking forward to having for quite some time with some of my most favorite people. Today, we are talking about the very fascinating topic of creativity, decision making, and giving yourself permission to build a business around your unique brilliance. And you two ladies have more brilliant ideas than you will ever have time to execute on, so let's talk about your process.

G1: My first brand sucked totally, I mean, Annie kinda mentioned maybe I spent time or money on it, but I honestly didn't have either of those. I was pregnant and had a 3 year old and was a teacher, so I had no time or money. So the first brand was just me looking at the Internet and being like, what do other people do? How should I be showing up, so I can be quote, unquote professional and I did that for a few months. I didn't get any clients.

And I was like, man, what's happening people like me in real life, and nobody seems to want to engage with me as a business owner. And then I was leaving Target one day, and I was, like, buying my daughter a bathing suit, a mermaid bathing suit with rainbow colors. And I was like, I wish these could be my brand colors. And then I was like, oh, wait, I'm in charge, I'm the boss, why can't they be? So I went home immediately, went on the Target website, found that bathing suit, put it in Photoshop, got the hex codes, and those have been my brand colors ever since and I do joke a lot.

Like, that since I'm an ADHD business owner, keeping those for 3 years is wild. But, also, it's, like, literally every color of the rainbow. So I did change, I had a huge pivot in the beginning, and I, like, haven't looked back. But I was saying that Annie has a really strong voice. I'm like, everybody knows who Annie P. Ruggles is, that voice, those ideas, all the amazingness. I feel like Annie can evolve and change because we all know and love Annie, and so it's, like, still Annie, even if she's pivoting and changing. That's what I think.

H: I can't believe that you have stuck with the same brand colors for 3 years. As a fellow business owner with ADHD, that amount of restraint yes, I understand you used all the colors but haven't you just had, like, an impulse or an urge to, like, change it up just because you got bored with it?

G1: Let me think, okay, I did add orange at some point, probably halfway between. I was like, I don't have orange what's going on and that would also make them even so I could like, kinda partner them up. I was like, I'm definitely missing orange, so I put a orange in there. I also did change my fonts. Like, if you go to my website, my logo were, like, Deanna and all capitals and Seymour is like a cursive font. Those were my first two fonts on everything.

And so I've changed the fonts once just because I was like, you can't read this cursive. And I have to change the space it like it was annoying. But other than that, yeah, I feel like it works for me because number 1, I love it. I still love it like, even now, when I use my colors, I still think they look really fun, and I like it. But, also, it gives me the time and space to change everything else in my business all the time. So nobody be impressed that I haven't changed my colors because I changed lots of things, but just not my colors.

H: So it's the one thing you haven't changed.

G1: Yes, yes, that is my staple. And then within that, that's what I say when I do branding for people. I'm like, we are gonna pick colors that you love. We're gonna pick fonts that you love. I don't care what anybody else is doing like, we are gonna brand you. I mean, I work with service providers and people who are their product. You know what, like, they're gonna be front client facing and work with them. But I'm like, you are the thing that's not gonna change. So if you build a brand, I feel like if you build a brand that you love so much, you can have those rules and then just like have a party within that set of rules and do whatever you want. That's my theory. It doesn't always work with everyone, but it's worked with me and I think it's worked with a lot of my clients.

H: I think it's working for Annie P. Ruggles too, I see a lot of nodding here.

G2: Yeah, absolutely and one of the things that Deedee brought up that I think is so important and that I didn't give myself real permission to lean all the way into the last couple of years. And I'm still doing is fun as a brand value and fun as a differentiator. And so I think about Deedee and that rainbow Target swimsuit right? In that, like, why can't these be my colors, they absolutely can. And one of the main things I do, both on and Dee said my brand has this very known voice, which is lovely, but one of the things that I'm known for is unlocking other people's voices. And what's interesting about that is they're always trying to write like me, and I'm always trying to get them to write like them.

And there's a thing of, like, what Dee's talking about is so totally true. If you're looking for the consistent brand voice or the consistent brand style, start with you. There were so many years where I did not wanna be the face and name of my brand, and I would downturn the spotlight on me constantly. I would run communities, and I would say stuff like, it's not the Annie Show, it's for all of us. It's for all of us. And then I'm like, well, hold on, I'm the one not making money from it and doing all the work for it, so maybe I should let things be a little bit more infused by me. And what I've found in the last couple of years is that if you make polarizing choices based on your own joy, you are choosing a harder road in terms of lead gen because the majority of people are no longer going to like you.

However, when you take the bold and polarizing choice of leaning into Deedee's style, your love of Pee Wee Herman, and having that have a whole new offering, all based very overtly on Pee Wee. Or me, instead of writing a sales book, you write a noir novella right? When you make those choices, it turns off the populace but turns on the people that are gonna go, I'm so tired of doing this the old way, or I need something exciting, or I need something that's gonna work. They're looking for that fresh and that new. And what makes it fresh and what makes it new is just our commitment to doing it our way, which it's still a process. I'm still leaning into it.

H: This is probably one of the most important things for people who are in their first few years of business to hear, and we probably need to say it again and again and again for the folks in the back row, most people do not know how to embrace the true freedom of being a personal brand because we've all been so conditioned to ask for permission, follow the leader, try to avoid making mistakes, do things the right way, give people what they expect. And there's nothing wrong with any of those things, except for the fact that you are going to be lost in the soup with 1,000 and 1,000,000 of others who are all doing the same thing. It may be a developmental process, I would love to know what each of you think about that. I think it has been for me.

You know, you spend so many years, especially as a person with ADHD, I spent a whole lot of my life masking and I was proud of the fact that I used to call it passing for normal. I thought, nobody knows I'm such a freaking weirdo and I really thought that that was winning. And it hasn't been until the last few years that I realized, if they like me, they don't actually like me because they don't actually know me. So I'm just gonna double down on just being who I actually am and see what happens. That felt courageous, but it also came at the point of exhaustion of just trying to, like, bend me, shape me any way you want me. Who do I need to be to get you to like me and hire me and I'm like, fuck this, I can't do it and it's too fatiguing and it doesn't work, frankly.

But I think to get to the point where you're able and willing to say, I'm gonna do what makes me happy. I wanna do what lights my brain up like a Christmas tree and gives me all the dopamine downloads and if nobody likes it, I'm gonna like it. Somebody's gotta like it, somebody's gotta resonate with it and both of you have gone through that process. I think maybe it's taken a little bit longer for me than others. Do you think there's anything we can do to speed that up so people can get there sooner and not have to spend so many of the early years of their business trying to be who they already are?

G2: I have so many ideas come to mind, so many.

H: I don't doubt that.

G2: So many, I mean, one of them one of the biggies that I see, and I definitely made this error over and over and over in my early business and even now, there's still some temptation there. But one of the corners I see people try to cut is which guru they follow and following that guru to the letter. And what happens in those quick churn, like coaching programs or marketing programs or do it this ways, it's I see people take those things as law and not as an industry standard or not as a template that they can then modify right? And so I see these, like, identical cogs coming out right? It's like, I always think b school season for Marie Forleo when we see all of these different people sending the exact same swipe file email, trying to sell you into Marie's thing and I'm like, I've seen this email 5 times today.

But we see that more and more and more and more and more and to your point, Diann, we are all very much in crowded markets. And so when we're leaning into the trend of the target market because someone has told us this is the way to get there faster, then maybe it is in some way or maybe it was for some way, but it's not gonna pay off in the long game because you're becoming more and more of the standard and less and less of you like, the example that I saw was rose gold in cursive. Like, there was a time, like, 2 years ago when literally every website overnight added their primary brand color of rose gold and the same almost illegible cursive, and everyone started talking about empowerment almost overnight. And now it's like with ChatGPT, which I have no problem. If you wanna partner with GPT, go right ahead. But in GPT, everything is groundbreaking, and everything is a journey.

H: Or deep dive.

G2: Join me on this groundbreaking or a deep dive, a journey, a deep dive, or is a groundbreak right? And it's like, maybe you had really amazing copy before about something being a deep dive of groundbreaking proportions and journey to wherever, but now you gotta change it. Because it sounds like ChatGPT, and you're starting to sound like everybody else right? So I understand the intention to cut the corner but when we cut the corner, we cut part of us away. And so I just say, look at who you're following and look at what you're willing to alter. And the best strategist will encourage you to personalize what they're saying. If they're saying do this and don't change anything, my gut is fire that strategist.

H: Run. All you're gonna end up is I call these folks silly putty people because it's like whatever you know, you take the silly putty, whatever you press it up against, it looks like that thing and it's like a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy. You're never gonna be as good at being that person as they are, like 50 iterations ago. You're just gonna be a watered down version that has no individuality, no authenticity, and no hint of your uniqueness. I know Deedee has some thoughts about this too.

G1: Well, I was just thinking it like, you think you're saving time by doing what Annie was saying, like, signing up for the thing or working with this person or whatever. But I find that it puts you behind because then when that stops working or you wanna switch, then you have to look for a new person to follow because you haven't worked on your own skills of, like, where should I go next or what could I do? Honestly, like, this is a pretty blanket statement, so don't everyone get mad at me.

But, like, a lot of the things we wanna do in business, whether it's, like, starting a podcast or, I don't know, writing a good welcome sequence or setting up our automations and ConvertKit, like, all of those things are just on the Internet. Like, those are just, like, how to, there's a few podcast platforms you can choose there's this and that. And I'm not saying don't hire somebody to help you with it, but, also, you can do it. I'm like, people, you can do a lot by yourself with this amazing Internet that we have at our fingertips to where you can feel like when someone says, what do you use for your podcast?

I use this because I research things and, like, I decided this is what I use. Not because I took a class and someone told me to, and you really don't know. I feel like it does help you just solidify, like, who you are and how you show up. And I guess if you're searching for, like, building authority, I think you feeling confident in the decisions you're making and how you're running your business are also gonna, like, shine through as someone who at least is making decisions about their business and, like, running their own business. And not, like you were saying, a silly putty person who's like, what should I do now?

Like, I found myself googling, like, anything I wanted to do in my business when it was getting real bad, when I was downloading at the beginning, downloading a lot of PDFs. Every time I wanted to do anything, I was googling, how do I do it? Because I just, like, forgot, well, I didn't forget, I just had never had a business before. I'd always been a teacher so when it came to business stuff, I was like, don't know anything about business like, I'm not a business person. Every time I did something, I would Google, Google, Google until I felt like I couldn't even write an email without being like, how should I ask for feedback? Instead of just being like, hey, people, I'm emailing like, what do you think? Like, I knew how to ask feedback from my students. So just remember that you have, like, a whole brain with a whole lifetime of experiences, like, that you can pull from on how you can do anything you want to you know?

H: How would they know what our personal brand should be, they can only tell us what they did, but then that's their personal brand. And I think being willing to have people, like, intensely dislike you on the internet, like, you gotta gird your loins for that. I don't know if anybody's come for you in a big way and, like, haters, trolls, all that. But I remember the first time it happened, and I really had a little bit of an existential crisis. But I do think it's also a rite of passage that we all kind of at least need to be willing to go through. Like, if I put this out there, somebody might not like it. You should count on that, otherwise you're not saying anything.

G2: I'm just I'm seeing this play out in real time with a member of our work fam, Liz Wilcox, who is literally competing on Survivor right now and I love Liz. Liz is one of the weirdest people I've ever met and has one of the most unapologetic personal brands in the world. And so Liz is not, like, one of my best friends. We're not super besties like, I don't know her daughter's name. I should, but I don't, you know what I mean? But she's a work friend. And so I, being the overwhelming empath that I am, was like, I am not gonna look and see what people think about Liz.

I will watch. I will enjoy. I will have my own empathetic flare ups, but I'm not gonna see what people think about Liz. Well, that didn't last very long because there's coverage everywhere. And let me tell you, spoilers, half of the internet adores Liz and thinks that she is the greatest and most wonderful, adorable, little, fabulous thing and sees Liz how I see Liz. And then there's this whole other group of people outside our industry who's, like, she's a business owner, is it an MLM, sounds like a scam.

However, if Liz can survive being called the most obnoxious person on television on her way to probably winning $1,000,000, then I can send an email and deal with the fact that I got 12 unsubscribes because I put a raccoon video in it, and some people thought that was silly. You know what I mean? It's like no one's gonna die of embarrassment, and yet getting the that rejection sensitivity is still very much present in the personal brand so yeah. But I'm just seeing that play out right now. It's like everybody's watching the exact same TV show, but the responses could not be more different, and that's great. It's giving them something to talk about.

H: I appreciate you bringing up rejection sensitivity because, you know, several of us here have ADHD, and that's a real thing and learning how to manage it is absolutely necessary. Because unless you're saying nothing or whatever you're saying, nobody hears it or sees it or reads it, sooner or later, somebody's going to have an issue with it. And I think that the fear of that, the worry that if the more authentic we are, the more us we are, the more we let our freak flag fly, the more likely that we're gonna be exposed to some aspect of cancel culture. But we're canceling ourselves if we just keep watering things down to play it safe.

I know that both of you have very supportive partners who are probably amongst your biggest fans. I'm curious when you get a new idea because, of course, every brand new idea is the best idea we've ever had because it's at the top of the stack and it's unsullied by real experience. So, of course, you got to share it with somebody. Do you share your ideas right away with your partner? Or is there someone else that you share them with or do you kind of, like, hoard them a little bit and protect them because it might be too fragile to get that exposure early on.

G2: If I'm not not asking for feedback because I'm going through some kind of pissy fit, which is really what it is, or if I'm asking for too much feedback as a delay tactic. If I'm not doing one of those two things, then, normally, I will put it to my husband, Ryan, or I will put it to a member of the work fam as, help me workshop this. But then I have to with Ryan specifically, I have to tell him exactly what kind of feedback I want. Because if I don't, he will build me a whole another business that I didn't ask for.

He will write 57 websites that I don't need and I'm like, no literally, I just asked if you like this shade of blue, could you just tell me if you like this shade of blue? And so I feel like, in general, one thing I have learned when I do ask for input feedback or workshopping is to be very, very, very deliberate about why I'm asking for the feedback. Am I asking for validation disguised as feedback? Am I asking for permission disguised as feedback? Am I asking for time and space to think disguised as feedback? Or if I really do want feedback, what do I want the feedback on?

Because I will have whole things, and he'll be like, well, I don't like that paragraph and I'll be like, I love that paragraph, and it spins me out for 2 weeks. When what I really wanted is, do you like this color of blue right? I do really run the gamut, but for that, it's really gotta be a protected space, because I know me. And, otherwise, the best and most well meaning feedback, even stuff especially stuff I need to hear, can really take me down some rabbit holes if I don't limit like, what that looks like.

G2: Judging myself is a luxury I cannot afford anymore.

H: It's a waste of time.

G2: It's a huge waste of time and a waste of energy, and I am a one person business. If I waste my time and my energy, I don't get time and energy back.

H: Preach. How about you, Deedee?

G1: Well, Annie was so like self reflective that I'm like, oh my God, I need to go to counseling to figure out why I ask for feedback or when I do, or what's going on with me.

H: No, just send me a Voxer, or I'll fix you up.

G2: That's a good thing. We got a therapist right here.

G1: Yeah. I feel like I more so, like, present things to Matt. Because Matt has been on the roller coaster of many, many business ideas. Like, not this business, but lots of like, sometimes I'll start by being like, don't worry. It's not a whole new business but I think I'm gonna make stickers. Like, for this business or for this podcast, I feel like I usually start with, don't worry, it's not a whole new thing.

H: You have to issue a warning.

G1: Yeah. I'm like, okay, this is exciting. But also, like, Matt's a musician, he's in a band. If he played a song for me that was halfway through, I wouldn't know what to tell him. Like, he has no idea anything about online business, and, it's actually really adorable to watch him talk to his friends about my business. And he's just sort of like, I don't know what she does, but I think she's doing amazing. But it's, like, funny because he's just like, she's doing great, but he has no context for anything about it. He's like, I don't know, she's way happier now, it's awesome. You should see her office like, it's so cool and…

H: There’s rainbow colors everywhere.

G1: Like, he doesn't really know. He's definitely more of a cheerleader. So for me, it's my coach, Kathleen Oh, or, like you're like you're saying, the work fam, like, boxers with friends. Especially, you know, depending on what it is. Like, we know who to go for if we're talking about podcasts or if I'm talking about, you know, email, like, or whatever. Like, I feel like all our friends have different, like, strengths. So I try to, I guess, get feedback from those people. But there's definitely times where I'm, like, not asking anybody for feedback because they might tell me not to do it, and I really wanna do it. I just get started.

H: Ain't that the truth? No because, really, that's the last thing we are willing to fail because sometimes we just have to indulge that enthusiasm. Like we want to do something, we do not ask. And I think another thing I'm not hearing anybody say, when you have an idea, go put it in a Facebook group with a bunch of randos and see what they think. Please don't, please, please, for the love of all things holy, just don't because that is a massive procrastination technique, and those people cannot help you. They cannot help you but, like, how do you know when you because I've seen it with people I work with, I've seen it with myself.

Sometimes you want to change something because it hasn't it hasn't lived up to your expectation of it right? You thought it was gonna be freaking awesome, apparently, it wasn't. Or maybe the timing was not right, or maybe the price burn or whatever it is so you kind of need to let it go. Sometimes, and I think this is a really fascinating nuance, sometimes something is working. Like, if it's working, it continues to work. You're like, I haven't given this thing any 11, like, forever, but it's still working. And you just realize, I'm just not feeling it anymore.

It just doesn't make my chili cook like it used to, I'm just kind of over it. And most people would tell you to turn it into some kind of a passive product so you don't have to manage it anymore, But that's not always the right decision either. I know each of you have created a number of things and come to the point where you realize you had irreconcilable differences and you need to let it go. Let's talk about that process. Because I think this is really challenging for a lot of people, and it can take up a tremendous amount of your mental and emotional energy while you're getting to the point where you finally decide one way or the other.

G1: I'm about to record the last episode of my podcast, big fun content, this week. I know because we're gonna…

H: Are we the first to know?

G1: You are. I mean, my VA and a couple people who I said, never mind, we don't have to record that interview because, I'm pivoting, I'm changing and who knows? You know what, we've talked about this kind of stuff being baked into our brands, but the episode is gonna talk about some of my favorite episodes. Also how I might be back like, I'm not gonna close the door forever, but, like, I'll see you when I see it kind of thing. And I started doing my pop up networking parties, and I love those.

And so I like, Annie was saying, she's a one woman show, I'm mostly a one woman show. I have my VA, Emily, who helps me a little bit, but, it's like, I don't have enough help to do everything I want to do. And so I had to sit down and be honest with myself and say, I really like the networking parties. And I'm having co hosts, and we're having cool conversations and it feels like I'm sort of getting the same energy that I got when I started my podcast, except for also, let's be real, I don't have to do show notes. I don't have to edit the episode, it just was like a little bit of a no brainer to me to try this.

And you said if you know it's working, which I'm like, I mean, I guess I can see on the back end, but, like, how do I know if people really only bought from me because of it. Like so we'll see. I mean, maybe I'll be back sooner than I thought if I'm like, oh my god. Maybe big fun content was the thing that gave me all my leads then maybe it will come back. But for now I'm like, this is what I gotta focus on. So I don't know, I think you asked a question, and now I'm like, down a rabbit hole but hashtag ADHD.

H: Actually, I'm following believe it or not, I'm following you perfectly. Because actually, I think you did something quite brilliant there that you might not even recognize. And that is you use the words now and maybe. We all think that the decisions we make are, like, carved in stone. Like, they're gonna be in some archive somewhere. It's like, no, no, and no. You didn't want to continue doing it for whatever reasons and so you decided, I'm not gonna do it.

I'm gonna follow my curiosity, and I'm gonna do this other thing because that feels good. But I'm not gonna close and lock the door and throw away the keys. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna wrap this up for y'all, and maybe I'll be back, no promises. Does anybody ever give you feedback that that's like, bitch, you in or you out like, I need to know what to expect from you. Or they're like, that's Deedee, she's gonna be doing something, and I'm along for the ride. I don't know what it's gonna be, but, like, I'm here for her and all her rambos and all that juicy goodness that comes out of that brilliant brain, whatever it may look like, it doesn't matter to me.

G1: I think they come along and, you know, it's kinda what we've been saying this whole time, if they don't, then good because after pop up network parties, who knows what's gonna happen next? Like, I'm gonna lose them some and maybe they don't wanna come to those, but whatever idea happens after networking parties, like, maybe they are back in and they're like, oh, well, that sounds fun. Or maybe the podcast gets rebirth as a whole new thing that reaches people who didn't reach before. I mean, that podcast big fun content, the first episodes are called F That breaking the rules of online business. So remember if they go back and listen and I mean, I get I have that voice in my head too.

I get nervous where I'm like, oh, should I start a whole new podcast because now I want to be big fun content. And what if someone finds big fun content and goes back to number 1, which I feel like people do, they're gonna hear the first episode of F That and maybe be like, what? But, also, like, they can just be like, oh, that must be what it used to be called. Like, I think they can figure it out and the first episode of F That talks about how I break the rules, and I think I say what I'm gonna do in this podcast. And I'm like, also, by the way, this is gonna change so get ready for, like, this ride, whatever this podcast is gonna be.

So I think it's kind of funny that it turned into big fun content. And maybe later, it could be something else with a whole new cover when it comes back, who knows? I was just gonna say, one of my brand values is experimentation. And I feel like I talk a lot about in a lot of my messaging, and on my website, and I that's what we do in Content Playhouse. So in fact, I'm just building a brand where, like, this makes sense. And the people who get it get it, and the people who wanna be super professional and never change anything and have a team or 500 VAs who can just, like, seamlessly do things behind the scenes. Like they're not my people anyways.

H: You've literally built an entire brand around how your brain works, and how you like to do things. If you get tired of something, if it's a little bit boring, if you get a better idea, you wanna try something new, you are consistent in that you always make it fun. You're always trying something new, and you encourage people to do the same in their own business. So you are not obligated to do the same thing over and over and over in fucking definitely. In fact, that would be very much off brand for you, that could be confusing.

G1: I like that, I'm consistently inconsistent. I like that, it's part of it.

ealized that an idea I had in: 2011

Whereas when I founded the Non Sleazy Sales Academy, I was like, I'm done with marketing. I'm not marketing anybody else's stuff anymore. I'm done, I'm gonna focus entirely on sales and I leaned all the way into that. And the second I started focusing entirely on sales, everyone around me was like, hey, can you do my marketing? Hey, are you a fractional CMO? Hey, can you train my team? Hey, can you write this? Hey, could you do that? And I was like, I love all this work. I'm glad that it's back, but I chose not to prioritize it. And the second I closed the door, everybody wanted what had been open for years. And it's just like, oh, man but so I chose in that moment to realize that what I had chosen for myself in that sales lane was too limiting to continue as my only brand right?

The Non Sleazy Sales Academy does not encompass every single thing that Annie P. Ruggles does. And so I thought instead of rebranding this time, I'm gonna super brand. I'm gonna give myself more space and so the Non Sleazy Sales Academy is now a faction of Quirkworks Consulting because I had to give myself space. But in giving myself that space, a lot of the things that I mourn the loss of are finding their way back.

And so it feels like a graduation or a homecoming as my brand evolves because I step more and more into maybe, some whys that I'd lost sight of in the past, or some aspects of how I serve people that I hadn't been prioritizing. I'm doing more copywriting now than really literally ever before, and I didn't expect that. But it's what the market requires, and it's what I'm choosing to lean into at this moment.

H: This is absolutely transformational awareness because when you were starting to go through this process, I thought of it as like Annie's opening her umbrella. Like and the more you open the umbrella, you know, and the sides start coming out and the more expansive it is. But the spokes, I guess that's what they're called, I hope that's what they're called, that's what I'm going with anyway. All the spokes inside because we have this I'm in the Palm Springs area now. It's super hot, a good part of the year.

And so we have these wonderful, like, beachy umbrellas outside. And I'm thinking as the umbrella opens up, like, all the spokes, all the individual parts of your brand, all the things that you love doing, people love working with you to do, they're all still there. But now Quirkworks Consulting is like the umbrella, the super brand. So you want this? I got you. You want that? I got you. You got the book. You got the course. You got all the things are still there. And you don't have to kill your children. You can just, like, put them into cryosleep or tell them to take a really long nap or just neglect them for a while. And if they go away, like, it was a natural death that was meant to happen.

But, like, you don't have to and I think this is so important for people because of something you and I have talked about a number of times, the sunk cost fallacy. Like and especially if you're somebody who's like, doesn't wanna make a mistake, wants to get it right, wants to make it perfect, overthink, second guesses, you know, all that, the whole perfectionism and all of this stuff is very familiar to all of us here. But the longer it takes for it to become the thing, the harder it's going to be for you to let it go when it's not working, isn't working well enough or is working, but you're just so done with it.

And you found a really brilliant way to kind of keep it, but sort of deprioritize it so you didn't actually have to go get it cremated or find a burial plot somewhere and it's like, maybe it'll come back. Have you gone back to things in the past, like actively? Or did they just sort of like wiggle their way back into your consciousness? Or did someone reach out and say, hey, are you still doing that thing because I would love I'm ready now.

G2: All of the above. All of the above. But, again, I had to create space for the all of them right? And so that's what it was for me.

H: Tell me how you created the space.

G2: By realizing where I was clipping and playing small right? In terms of clipping my own wings. And so what I mean by that is I had the and I wanna get back to sunk cost. But I also I feel like one of the things that we really get stuck on is old mindset beliefs, and I convinced myself years ago that I can only provide really exceptional product service, blah, blah, blah, blah, when it is a 100% handheld by me 100%. And so when I decided I was gonna start the Non Sleazy Sales Academy, it was going to be me teaching sales live and coaching sales live. And accept no substitutes, it couldn't be a program, it couldn't be that.

It couldn't be this. It couldn't be find alone. It couldn't be discoverable. It couldn't be anything. I have to be there. And I realized that I can't be everywhere all at once, and where I have to be is in the marketing trenches with my people fixing their stuff. I am a fixer, that is where they actually need me. But they can watch sales videos and so I had to give myself the space to say, alright, hold on. I'm going to break the pattern of assuming that they won't get value if I'm not there right? And then I'm going to honor the sunk cost principle of saying, I have incredible sales curriculum that it would feel terrible to just out and out kill. So what's gonna happen here? What can we change? And what I realize is if I put the curriculum out there without hand holding, it can continue to live if I'm willing to give myself that space.

you know, from: 2019

H: Does that sound familiar to you, Deedee?

G1: Yeah, a little bit. I feel like also I've been thinking sitting here thinking about, like, Annie P. Ruggles, how can you possibly have a sales thing and do copy and do, you know, do consulting? Because I feel like we're all conditioned to be like you have to niche down. Like, you have to do one thing really well.

H: Pick a lane.

G1: People are gonna be so confused and I feel like I wrote an email about this recently, but, you know, Beyonce just did a country album. I don't think anyone's confused about who Beyonce is anymore. Like, we all understand Beyonce's a human. She felt this itch, she did this album. I don't think anyone's like, okay. So I guess now Beyonce is a country star forever. Like, we can't even compute if she's gonna go back to what she gonna do next. Like, I just think and the more I was thinking about it while you were talking, I feel like we have almost, like, niched down our audience because we're showing up in such bold ways that not everyone is attracted to us. And so I think the people, like, do follow us because the people feel connected. When I say the people, it's our audience but doesn't it sound nicer to call them the people?

G2: The people.

H: We the people, yup.

G1: I'm like we the people. The people. But they are in it for like, they are with us. Like, they're connected to us and so I think we can that's also a fast track to being allowed, quote, unquote, allowed to experiment like this in your brand or change things or not confuse people. Because I feel like people I feel like be going back to the Beyonce example, I do feel like people love Beyonce. They're not like, oh, I like, people are just like queen B.

I'm not like a huge Beyonce fan, but, like, they love Beyonce, so I think they're willing to follow her there. If they only liked her music, then they might be like, ugh, what's she doing? This is like I so I think we've just kind of reversed it where we're showing up this way. Are you with us or against us in the case of Liz Wilcox? Just kidding. And they're with us like, the people who are with us are with us, and that gives us the creative flexibility to change. I don't know if I took it in a whole another conversation, but that's what I was doing while you were talking.

H: You took it in the perfect direction because I think this is really the culmination of everything we've been talking about. It's like, know who you are, know what your gifts are. Don't be so persuaded that what you do has to look like what anyone else does. In fact, I think the biggest growth for me came after I literally unsubscribed, unfollowed, and stopped paying attention to everyone else in my space so that I could things could get quiet enough in my mind, in my business, in my world so that I could actually find my own voice. And then, as Annie said, deal with the limiting beliefs and the legitimate fears about what's gonna happen if they all hate me.

It reminds me when I was making the pivot, it's much more than a pivot. It was really kind of an identity transformation. I was closing my therapy practice. I'd done a couple of years of coach training, and I was sort of, like, cutting off that one occupation and starting the new one. And I had met someone right at that time that I thought, she's actually much more suitable for coaching than therapy. But I had she'd been referred to me as a therapy client.

So I talked to her a couple of times, we met a couple of times. Then I said, listen, I need to explain to you, I'm not gonna be a therapist anymore. I'm gonna be working as a coach now, there's a different, structure to how I work. The payment will be different and she literally just held up her hand and she says, listen. I'll never forget this. I don't care what you call it, I don't care what it costs. You're the one for me, just sign me up. And I remember thinking, who the hell does that?

uite a number of this is like: 2010

You make u turns, you make pivots, you use all the colors in the rainbow, like be yourself to the best of your ability. And if you start small, like, what's one thing you could do after you finish listening to this podcast? What's one thing you could do to be a little bit more uniquely you in your business, in your branding, in your messaging, in in in your makeup, like, whatever. Like, what's the worst that can happen? They don't like it. Some of them are gonna like it anyway but the ones who will like the real you are gonna freaking love you.

G1: Well, and the people who aren't gonna like, the people who might not like it might not even notice it if you don't start showing up as yourself. Like, you don't even give them a chance to not like it or love it because they're just not gonna notice it because they're just gonna scroll on past because it's insane. One thing too well, I just wanted to say because while you were talking, obviously, Annie and I are both, like, quirky and fun and all that stuff. People come to me for branding, and they're like, okay but, like, I like I'm like, I know. It looks like a unicorn threw up on my website. Don't worry, not everyone has to have all the colors. So I was just thinking too how you were saying, like, showing up as yourself. So I just was thinking of a couple examples.

Like, if you're balancing, like, being a mom and having a business, and so then you later like, they know that about you and they are attracted to that about you. Maybe they have kids too then you have to pivot or change something. Oh, I'm stopping my podcast because I really wanna be done with work when my kids get off the bus. They're gonna be like, oh, we love we love that for you. Like, they know you, they're your friend you know, I have a lot of business friends who have chronic illness. And, like, if they're open about that, it's very vulnerable. But, you know, if classes are supposed to start on April, you know, 16th and, like, they're having a flare up or something's happening.

Their audience is okay with that and so I feel like it doesn't have to be wacky. Like, I think sometimes people get confused with, like, being yourself, like, you have to be wacky. But, really, it just means being like, literally being you and does that look for you to show up? If that's just, like, super introverted and shy and people will be other introverts are gonna be like, oh my gosh thank you. Because Deanna Seymour is way too much for me you know? Or whatever. I just wanna toss that out there because as we're talking, like, obviously, Annie and I have pretty big personalities. Diann, you're obviously not afraid to say it how it is and so I was thinking, what if someone's listening and, like, yeah.

H: Try and stop me. You know what?

G2: 7 feet tall so, like and imposing presence in this one is just gonna happen by default.

H: This is a really, really important point, and I'm really glad you brought it up, is that the idea here is not be like us, be loud and proud, be quirky, be freaky, be, you know, colorful. It's that whatever the most and I don't like this word, authentic. But the you is to you that you can be, if that's, like, totally nerdy, you have really unique interests that most people don't share, double down on that. Your idea of a good time is, you know, whatever like, people who will be attracted to your genuineness, to your uniqueness because they are like, I think I'm kind of a weirdo too like, be your version of weird.

It doesn't have to be loud. It doesn't have to be colorful. It doesn't have to be quirky. There was someone else who was supposed to be here today who couldn't make it for personal reasons. But you're right, it is the you-est you that you can be. Give them something to relate to, something to attach to. Because if you're just trying to be like everybody else out of a sense of that's what the market wants, the market doesn't want that. I think people right now, more than ever, are wanting the real thing, give them that, your version of that. Annie, as we're wrapping up, do you have any last thoughts on this?

G2: I'm also very tired of authenticity, and I am extremely excited about transparency in that we're seeing not only in crowded markets, but in business in general, with this stuff about cancel culture or, like, this lovely glorious return to kind of enforced ethics, which I actually really quite enjoy. The service providers that I'm seeing kill it are the people who are going beyond authenticity as, like, this is me showing up as me, as this is why I'm showing up this way right? And so we're showing the striving. If something is important to us, we're showing up in the brand value. We're not just saying something is our brand value. We're showing the brand value.

If Dee wants to infuse being a mom into her brand, then she's gonna show more pictures of her kids than she normally would in her emails. She's gonna include more personal narrative, that's just her being transparent right? And so I'm not saying you have to live your whole life out loud, your boundaries are critical. But while so many people are still looking at showing up authentically, then why can't we go one step further and say, this is why I am choosing to show up this way for both of us and let that inform and infuse into the brand and beyond? So let's stop being authentic and start being transparent.

H: That's a mic drop moment. I think we call it a wrap, right there.

G2: Boom.

H: Boom. Thank you, friends. I knew this was gonna be good, you did not disappoint.

G1: Thank you.

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