Fresh off her agency’s four Super Bowl commercials, Goodby Silverstein & Partners Chief Creative Officer Margaret Johnson joins the show and discusses the craziness of putting together a Big Game ad and her experience building creative for the biggest audiences. She also talks about integrating digital at a leading agency and provides her perspective on the impact of AI on her work. Also, John gives his snap decision on whether there’s a backlash against technology. Brian takes a swing at another Hopelessly Unattainable Guest.

Key topics & chapter markers 

(00:37) - SNAP DECISION: Waymo car fire a sign of tech backlash?

(04:52) - Welcome, Margaret!

(23:26) - Navigating an ad agency through digital transformation

(32:23) - Daughters of the Evolution

(44:25) - Dear Hopelessly Unattainable Guest

Background content

How Waymo became a symbol of everything people hate about AI - Fast Company

Tesla worker killed in fiery crash may be first ‘Full Self-Driving’ fatality - Washington Post

Goodby Silverstein & Partners

See Margaret speak at SXSW

Most liked Super Bowl ads 2024 - Ad Age

USA Today Ad Meter - USA Today

Lessons in Herstory - Daughters of the Evolution

Fire & Ice Super Bowl ad (2018) - moviemaniacsDE/YouTube

Connect with Brian and John on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmarks13/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-l-young/

Right, John.

2

Welcome back.

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John: Hey, Brian, welcome back and

welcome to folks who are listening.

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, if you're new to Snap Decisions,

this is the podcast that gives you

5

a behind the scenes look at some of

the big decisions that shape the way

6

products and brands and personalities

present themselves to the world.

7

And today we've got a real expert at that.

8

And following up our last episode,

which is all about the Super Bowl.

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We've got someone who knows a little

something about creating Super

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Bowl ads, good Super Bowl ads.

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Before that, what do

you got for me, Brian?

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Brian: You know, I was reading the news

the last couple of days and saw a really

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interesting story that I wanted to get

your reaction to, so, uh, in San Francisco

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during the celebration of the lunar new

year, recently, a Waymo car, which is the

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driverless Google car, was set ablaze.

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A bunch of partiers set the car on fire

in San Francisco, in Chinatown, as they

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were celebrating the Lunar New Year.

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And, the car was attacked driving

through the neighborhood with, a partier

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throwing a firework into the empty car,

causing the car to go up in flames.

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thankfully no one was in the car

and no one else was apparently

21

injured, which is great.

22

But.

23

I brought up questions on my end here.

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Number one, are we seeing a

growing, backlash against technology?

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I think things are popping

up all over our lives.

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Specifically in the, uh,

self-driving category.

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A recent Washington Post analysis

found at least 40 serious or fatal

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accidents among the 900 reported

from Tesla in the last few years.

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Investment in that category is decreasing.

30

With that, as well as all the things

happening with AI and how it may replace

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jobs and how these things are just

becoming disruptive forces in our society.

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People walking around with the Apple

Vision Pro in the middle of a Uh, so,

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John, should we expect more of this

type of backlash against technology?

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You know, I don't know that

we can specifically say that

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the way mo explosion was a

backlash against technology.

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But as tech advances, will we see, human

backlash to the advancement of technology?

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John: Hmm.

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I'm a little torn.

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first you said a few things in there about

the situation, celebration, partiers.

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New Year's, fireworks, I don't know,

it sounds to me like not too dissimilar

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from certain, I don't know, celebratory

crowds post football game, you know,

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there for celebration, ends up in

mayhem, , I think that's more likely

43

the case than a backlash against the

technology, however, I do know People

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have a real visceral reaction to

this driverless car thing, right?

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Brian: Yeah, I mean, I don't

think it would have happened if

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someone was actually in the car.

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John: Yeah, no, you're right.

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I probably, you don't hear a

whole lot about people throwing

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fireworks into Ubers, right?

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Thankfully.

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My kids don't get any ideas.

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yeah, no, I, I feel like, uh, it is.

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The autonomous self driving car

thing is a little bit of a lightning

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rod topic for people for reasons

I don't entirely understand.

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I think there's just that visceral

visceral reaction in terms of a

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larger backlash against technology.

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I don't know.

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I'm not sure I'm seeing it.

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I'm seeing a lot of hand wringing

about AI and people getting on their

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high horses with opinions, but I don't,

has anyone really taken big action?

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Is anyone writing letters to congressmen

in mass yet about, slowing down AI or any

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of the other digital advances we've seen?

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People complain about social media

platforms , using consumers as the product

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and people don't stop using it though.

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It just keeps going.

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Brian: It just keeps going.

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there is some backlash against things

like, um, self checkouts and a lot

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of brands are concerned about, theft.

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in fact, Target has recently, um,

made some changes to the, the hours

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with which self checkout will, uh,

be available in some of their stores.

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Because they're afraid even though

it creates a better environment and

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people like it there are some other

customers who have never really grown

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towards that technology, but , I

don't know that there's a lot of facts

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against the backlash yet either But

it'll be interesting to watch The

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driverless segment is interesting.

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, I think Yes, it's it's fascinating because

the percentage of which there'll be car

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accidents through a driverless car will

probably be much less than a human,

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John: Much less.

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Brian: but.

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The instances where there will be

accidents could be in instances

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where a human might easily.

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Not get an accident, so look,

it's, it's still in its infancy,

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but, um, it'd be interesting to

see kind of where that goes and how

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people, become comfortable with that.

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So,

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John: Yeah, I think there's a big

difference between backlash and just,

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you know, complaining about stuff.

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But I don't know that anyone really

does anything or really stops using

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these tools that, generally make

their lives a little more convenient.

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Brian: yeah, yeah, good point.

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John: Alright, well, with that, should

we, , dive into talking to our guest?

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Our esteemed guest.

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All right, Brian, as you know,

I am beyond excited to introduce

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one of the most influential people

working in advertising today.

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Margaret Johnson is the first

ever Chief Creative Officer of one

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of the world's best ad agencies,

could be Silverstein and Partners.

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The agency is known for iconic

ad campaigns like Got Milk?

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and The Budweiser Lizards,

representing clients including Nike,

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HP, BMW, eBay, Doritos, Comcast,

the NBA, and a whole lot more.

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And under Margaret's creative

leadership, the agency has been

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recognized with pretty much every

advertising award known to humankind.

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It was also named the most

innovative advertising agency

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by Fast Company in 2021.

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Margaret herself was named executive

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and cited as the ad industry's top

chief creative officer by Forbes.

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Business Insider and Adweek.

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Name an advertising award, she's won it.

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She's also a tireless advocate for

underrepresented professionals in

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advertising and is a founding member of

the 3 percent conference, which we'll

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touch on in a little bit with her.

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This year she and her team had

four ads in the Super Bowl,

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more than any other agency.

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With two of them excelling

in national consumer polls.

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Talking like Walken for BMW,

and Dina and Mita for Doritos.

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I could go on and on and on, but that

would cut into our time with her.

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Please welcome Margaret Johnson.

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Yeah!

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All right, an advertising

legend in our presence.

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Margaret: Thanks so much for

asking me to be on the podcast.

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John: All right, Margaret, to get started,

just can you orient our guests and tell

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us a little more about your role at

could be Silverstein and Partners, and

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and maybe fill us in on what exactly

does a Chief Creative Officer do?

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Margaret: So I am Chief Creative Officer

here at Goodby Silverstein and Partners.

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And I basically, oversee all the

creative work that leaves the building.

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John: So let's get into the fact that

you did just produce all those Super

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Bowl ads, uh, more than any other agency.

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What kind of effort goes into that?

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Can you tell us a little bit about, you

know, the steps that are involved in

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creating a national ad, um, and whether

it's really a whole lot different

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to do one for such a big event?

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Margaret: I think it's really different

than any other, you know, brief

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that, that comes through because

there's so much more pressure on it.

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There's so much, you know, money and

celebrity involved that, uh, you have a

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lot more eyes, um, on the creative work.

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You have a lot more clients that are, you

know, a part of the process and onset.

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So, yeah, it's, there's a lot

more pressure there for sure.

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John: And what are the steps?

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Like, how does it, how

does a bill become a law?

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How do you, how do you get from kind

of that, that brief you mentioned to a

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finished ad that runs in the Super Bowl?

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Margaret: It's funny.

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It varies from client to client.

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We've been doing Super Bowl

spots for, you know, Frito Lay

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and PepsiCo for a long time.

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So that process starts.

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a lot earlier.

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Those clients are, really savvy and

they want to be a part of the process.

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And they're, uh, incredibly organized when

it comes to producing this kind of stuff.

149

For Frito Lay, we started in the

summer, so months and months and months.

150

ahead of time.

151

Um, then on the opposite end of

the spectrum, you have a client

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like Kawasaki, who had never been

in the Super Bowl before, and we

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only started, a few months in.

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So, it, it kind of depends on

how seasoned the client is,

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uh, in the Super Bowl arena,

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Brian: can you talk a little bit

about, , organizing all those different

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types of people and, and pieces of it

between, , you know, the brand and the

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celebrities, all the crews you're working

with, your creative teams, , all these

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influencing factors that go into the ad?

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Like, how do you guys kind of

keep it all running together?

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Margaret: You know, it kind

of just, you do it bit by bit.

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I mean, on the celebrity front.

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You know, initially you'll

pitch an idea to the client.

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They'll like that idea.

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You'll have a few, celebrities in mind.

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You approach the first one.

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And, uh, honestly the name of the game

is flexibility because if you don't get

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that one celebrity, you don't want your

idea to, to die because that one person.

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Doesn't want to, uh, do the app.

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So, , then you move on to the next one.

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So it just kind of like

unfolds in that way.

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You just do it bit by bit.

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John: Were there any ads this year that

had a big unexpected twist or where that

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flexibility had to really come into play?

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Margaret: Um, yeah, for sure.

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I mean, our BMW spot's a great example.

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We pitched the idea, the client loved it.

178

We got, usher on board and the

whole thing at the time really

179

hinged on, you know, his hit song.

180

Yeah.

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And as we got into the negotiations,

with the NFL and got into the specifics

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around the ad, the NFL said, you

can't use that song because usher's

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going to be doing the halftime show.

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So you can't use that song.

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Um, so then we had to go back

and rethink the whole ending.

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So that's a great example of like

flexibility is kind of the name of

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the game when it comes to Super Bowl.

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John: Well, it worked because

that, that kind of subtle little

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yeah at the end actually, I think

kind of had a little more impact.

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Margaret: well, it also worked

really well with our position in

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the lineup because the spot ran

just before the halftime show.

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So it kind of teed that up nicely

when you cut to him singing it.

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Brian: Can you talk about, your

different teams internally?

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Like, is there a lot of, a little bit

of like fun competition between your

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teams to come up with the best spot or

how do you guys kind of work together

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Margaret: there's definitely, um, a

healthy competition around here for, you

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know, you know, who it's, it's a jump

ball usually, so you have a lot of teams

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initially throwing in ideas and, not

every team though is, is, is up for it.

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I will say that I think we've been

doing it long enough that people around

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the creative department know that

it's you're in for the long haul when

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you sign up for Super Bowl, because.

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So much goes, into testing

and things that are just

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completely out of your control.

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So you kind of need to go

in eyes wide open, knowing

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that . It's not gonna be easy.

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Brian: How are the senior

executives involved like yourself?

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, are you, you try to give people space

to be able to do it or do you have

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to be more involved just because

it's such a, such a larger magnitude?

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How do you get involved?

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Margaret: Yeah, I mean, on Super Bowl,

very involved because, you're dealing

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with the most senior clients for, each

brand and like I said before, there's

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just so much money at stake and celebrity

and there's just, , a lot on the line.

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So, in the case of Super Bowl, I'm, I'm

really involved in that whole process.

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I always go to those shoots.

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John: So, Margaret, I've Always wondered,

, when you look at the day after analysis

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of, you know, what Super Bowl spots people

like, um, you know, there's so many that

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are super funny, super memorable, really

dramatic in the moment, but a lot of

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them, you go two days down the road and

people have no idea which brand did what.

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Uh, or it didn't change their

opinions or purchase behavior.

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When you're building ads for such an

entertainment focused showcase, like

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the Superbowl, how do you focus your

teams on creating something that you

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think will actually move the needle?

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It will actually work for the client.

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Margaret: I think the key there is,

and we talk about this a lot, um, at

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the agency is to make sure you're, you

know, making stuff people care about.

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That's the only way that your idea is

going to break through and that people

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are going to remember the brand, right?

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They're going to, you want them to,

to watch it and think to themselves,

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that brand, they really get me.

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I want to, I want to

interact with that brand.

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I'm going to buy their stuff.

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John: So as a consumer yourself, when

you're watching, are there times when you

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watch something and you just go, Oh my

gosh, I can't believe they spent all that

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money and no one's going to know what that

was for or what I'm supposed to think.

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Margaret: Yes.

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What a waste of money.

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Well, you know, and then, you know, in a

lot of cases, they're just promoting the

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category when they don't break through

and do something that's memorable.

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Um, they're doing their,

their own brand of disservice.

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John: prepared to name any names?

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Margaret: No,

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John: Come

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Margaret: not my first rodeo.

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John: under a bus.

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I'm kidding.

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Of course not.

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Those same clients are probably going,

maybe we should call Goodby Silverstein

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to Barton or Sedora next year, cause

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Margaret: I hope so.

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John: we just wasted a lot of money.

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Brian: you know, with that obsession

of the cost of the Super Bowl ad, you

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know, everybody talks about it and

everybody kind of follows how much

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more and more it costs each year.

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How do you manage that with brands and,

um, you know, especially the ones that

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are on the fence and whether it fits or,

or people that you maybe say this may not

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be for you, even if you have the money,

are you dealing with things like that?

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Margaret: Yeah, I mean, it's

an interesting question.

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There's so many platforms now that it's

really hard to, reach all the audiences

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that you're, trying to reach out to.

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And the Super Bowl is advertising's,

you know, biggest stage and, you know,

261

It's the the one day a year where

you can reach everyone all at once.

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Everyone's watching everyone

from, you know, tiny little

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kids to great grandparents.

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Um, so it, it is a valuable

bang for your buck,

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John: Any ads in this year's

game, Margaret, that you

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wish that you had worked on,

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Margaret: You know, I really liked

the, um, the Paramount Plus ad.

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I

269

didn't,

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John: it, so did Brian.

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Margaret: Oh, yeah.

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Well, I feel like I didn't get the.

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The, the attention it deserved, but

there were so many other, studios

274

that were just, pushing their

sizzle reels and using, their

275

properties in a pretty generic way.

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And I just thought they did a really

nice job of taking those properties and,

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creating something that was conceptual

and, and really, really interesting.

278

And they still had all the things,

um, that work on Super Bowl.

279

You know, they had celebrity,

you know, Drew Barrymore.

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Uh, they had like great music with Creed.

281

They had even animated characters.

282

Like they had like all the ingredients.

283

They actually did something that

was memorable and conceptual.

284

And I thought they did a nice job.

285

Brian: You know, we had a, um, day after

quick rundown of the commercial podcast.

286

And they released that so early

that I wonder if it kind of ran out

287

of steam by the time the game came

around, because a lot of people had

288

seen it before the game started.

289

What are your thoughts on the pre release?

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I like watching it in the moment.

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Now I know that spending a lot of

money, you might be in a room with

292

a crowd of people and not be able

to, you know, hear the commercials.

293

So like, it helps the brands to

release them earlier, but what

294

are your, what are your thoughts

about when to release a commercial?

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Margaret: I mean, as a pure creative

person, I'm with you a hundred percent.

296

I like being surprised and

seeing everything fresh.

297

And for the first time during the game.

298

But if I'm a client and an investment

strategy, I think there's a lot to say

299

for releasing it early and making sure

that, you know, the celebrities or

300

influencers that you have involved are

helping you push out that content ahead

301

of time so that you're getting, as many

eyeballs on, on the creative as possible.

302

It's going to be the most

effective in that way.

303

, John: and I guess some of the thinking

there on the pre release too is it

304

lets you have a little more runway

on whatever digital experiences,

305

you know, companion pieces you're

making to go along with the ad,

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Margaret: that's exactly right.

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John: how big a challenge is that for you?

308

It's not just that you

can do an ad and move on.

309

You've gotta create a whole

experience around the advertising.

310

How is that a stressor for the agency

and, and how do you approach that?

311

Margaret: stressor, but it's

definitely a part of the process.

312

You know, you want the ripple effect.

313

You want to have, the excitement pregame.

314

So people have something, that

they're looking forward to.

315

You want to have the spot itself.

316

And then after, the game, you want the,

the idea and experience to, to live on.

317

, for Kawasaki this year, we did a promotion

or a partnership with Great Clips.

318

And so we gave away.

319

15, 000 free mullets after the

game and, you know, that just

320

kept the conversation going.

321

I

322

don't want to talk

323

John: Yeah.

324

Do we, do we thank you or curse

you for having 15,000 more mullets

325

in the country walking around

that that's, that's a tough call.

326

Margaret: think you'd look

good with a mullet, John.

327

John: I was, I was approaching

mullet hood, last fall.

328

Brian: there's been a lot of conversation

in the last several months on, you

329

know, brands making big investments

in advertising and marketing and

330

maybe not seeing immediate results.

331

, the one that really comes to mind is

the conversation around solo stove who

332

had the black Friday, um, advertising

with Snoop Dogg I think immediate

333

sales are a fair question, but it's

really not the opportunity that, that

334

these types of opportunities present.

335

I mean, like, what are your, what are your

thoughts on managing clients expectations

336

of what they're actually getting

out of, uh, an ad on a large scale?

337

Margaret: I think you have

one big opportunity to insert

338

yourself into pop culture now and

Super Bowl is that opportunity.

339

It is advertising's biggest stage.

340

And like I said before, everyone is

watching all at once, you know, from

341

little kids to great grandparents.

342

So you're, you're getting a lot of

bang for your buck, and it's a great

343

opportunity to get lots of different

kinds of people and lots of different

344

audiences talking about your brand.

345

Brian: What was the, uh, what was the

first Superbowl ad you ever worked on?

346

Margaret: I think the first one that

I ever did, was Fire and Ice for, um,

347

Well, it was the first Super Bowl spot to

ever have two brands in one commercial.

348

And we did it with

Mountain Dew and Doritos.

349

Definitely, uh, definitely

a hairy experience.

350

John: wait, why, why Harry?

351

What happened?

352

I

353

, Margaret: well, originally, and If

you remember , that commercial, it

354

featured, , Morgan Freeman and Peter

Dinklage, and they were having, It

355

was kind of a, a dueling banjo, kind

of, they were rapping against each

356

other, and a rap off, and a rap battle.

357

And, uh, we had originally cast,

uh, Kevin Spacey to play both roles.

358

So he was going to be, , in

this rap battle with himself,

359

representing , each brand.

360

And then the night before he was to sign

the contract, he had his me too moment.

361

And, uh, we had to quickly switch, like

I said before, the name of the game

362

is flexibility when you're working on,

on super bowl and not, you know, you

363

can't get yourself too tied to any one,

364

Brian: Yeah.

365

I mean, look

366

what could happen this year with,

uh, FanDuel and the Carl Weathers.

367

I died before the,

368

John: Yeah, that could have been,

that could have been terrible, but

369

they actually were able to salvage

something decent out of that.

370

I mean, not the ad, but the

reference to Carl Weathers.

371

Margaret: Well, the interesting thing

that happened on this one was that, part

372

of , the fun of that ad is seeing someone

super unexpected, you know, rapping and,

373

When we found out that, you know, Kevin

wasn't going to work out, obviously, the

374

easiest thing for us to do or for the

client to do was to, to switch gears.

375

They already had a relationship, um,

with, uh, Kevin Hart and they were like,

376

well, we'll just use Kevin Hart instead.

377

And I remember I was sitting in my car,

it was the night before Thanksgiving

378

and I, I thought I was going to have

a conversation about this whole thing

379

with, one client and it ended up being

15 clients and me on the phone and I had

380

to make a case for why it would be more

interesting to hear Morgan Freeman rap.

381

Missy Elliott than to see

Kevin Hart rap Missy Elliott.

382

And my whole thing was that, you know,

everyone expects Kevin to do something

383

funny, but you don't expect Morgan

Freeman to do something that, unexpected.

384

So anyway, it was a whole conversation

and a long one, but it worked out.

385

John: Wow.

386

Well, great call, right?

387

Really great call that you were

able to advocate in kind of a high

388

pressure situation for something

that turned out to be a real winner.

389

Um, you answered my question about any,

you know, really big pivotal moments

390

that we had to make a snap decision

because that's what this podcast is

391

all about, but you just answered that.

392

That sounds like a pretty in real time

decision to go somewhere different.

393

Margaret: Yeah, I think that

one is, uh, burned in memory.

394

It has been one of the most, uh,

stressful, and, you know, the first

395

situation like that I've been in,

so it's, a good learning experience.

396

John: trial by fire and dice.

397

Margaret: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

398

John: I know you can't name favorites, but

is there a Super Bowl ad campaign you've

399

worked on that really just stands apart?

400

is just so memorable for you,

like really high impact for you

401

Margaret: know, I, I, I really, you

know, you love all your children.

402

John: Exactly.

403

Margaret: But I did love the,

the cool ranch spot that we did.

404

Was, a dance off between,

Sam Elliott and Lil Nas X.

405

And that one just had, it was a fun one

to shoot, but it also had, um, a great,

406

we were, you know, talking before about.

407

Um, extensions of what you're doing

after the game, and it had an awesome

408

extension, a Sway app that we produced

that, you know, let the consumer dance

409

like Lil Nas and, um, put tons of,

really fun content out into the world.

410

So that one stands out.

411

It was a really simple idea.

412

Loosely based on the good,

the bad and the ugly.

413

Uh, but the, the fight was over

a bag of Cool Ranch Doritos.

414

And it was just, it was just a fun one,

415

John: Yeah, that's a winner.

416

And one that, you know, just with

all that passage of time, I do

417

remember being for Cool Ranch

Doritos without you having to say it.

418

So, and you teed up, I think, a

really interesting transition.

419

Goodby Silverstein Partners used to

be known kind of as a TV first agency,

420

or maybe that was your competitors

who are putting that out there.

421

I don't know.

422

But, um, yeah, probably.

423

But you, you really navigated that

shift from traditional media like

424

TV into digital media, the digital

media landscape incredibly well.

425

How did you in the agency

make that transition?

426

Margaret: You know, for me personally,

I've always been really interested

427

in the tech side of things.

428

I'm married to a former tech journalist.

429

So, um, like it or not, I've

kind of been on this journey.

430

Since, you know, since like 99

so, I just am genuinely curious.

431

And interested in technology.

432

We have an in house innovation

lab here at the agency.

433

It's called GSP labs, , where it's

filled with lots of, , people who

434

like to tinker and make prototypes

and help us educate the agency about

435

the latest tech that, is coming.

436

We're lucky because we kind of get

that first wave of tech just because

437

of our proximity to Silicon Valley.

438

So it's just a part of who we are

these days , and very much a part of,

439

um, how the work gets made, you know,

creatives will sit in, we have these

440

tech talks where they, you know, they're

kind of like, Education, you know,

441

workshops and a creative might hear

about a piece of technology and not

442

immediately think that it's applicable

to something that they're working on.

443

And then, a brief comes across their

desk and they're like, Oh yeah, you

444

know, they filed it away and they pull,

pull it back out of the drawer and

445

they're like, okay, this is my chance

to, to do something really innovative

446

for the brand that I'm working on.

447

And lots of ideas are born that way.

448

Brian: That's cool.

449

, I'm sure the labs playing around

with some, augmented reality or

450

apple vision pro stuff right now.

451

Margaret: Yeah, we're doing a lot

of experimenting with that stuff.

452

I mean, that kind of experimentation's

been going on forever.

453

I think 2016 was when we

did our first VR experience.

454

And that was for, the Dali Museum.

455

It was called, Dreams of Dali.

456

But it was kind of our, dipping our

457

So we've been doing it for a long time.

458

John: So being ahead of the curve

like that and having those in house

459

resources like The labs probably

helps attract a more digitally savvy,

460

digitally attuned creative director

and writer and art director, right?

461

Margaret: Yeah, and it helps attract.

462

Super innovative talent, and it also

really helps, as a strong assist to

463

those , who aren't as tech savvy,

they have, a whole team of people

464

that they can, can lean on to that.

465

John: I've noticed over the past year

or so, you've been a little bit out

466

front, uh, in terms of the advertising

community, in terms of talking about

467

navigating the, collision, of generative

AI technology with human creativity.

468

So, can you talk a little bit about

how Your organization, how could be

469

Silverstein and Partners, which is

totally powered by human creativity.

470

How do you handle the speed at which the

machines seem to be, uh, getting really

471

good at generating creative content?

472

Margaret: It's funny, I did a whole

conversation about this with Brad

473

Lightcap, who is the COO of OpenAI, and we

did this at Cannes last year, and it was.

474

standing room only.

475

Like you have, you

476

know, you know, audience of creatives

asking, asking the same thing and

477

you have to embrace it and just run

straight towards the fire, is my advice.

478

You know, we, we work really hard to keep

the agency Super educated on this front.

479

We have an ongoing relationship

with, um, hugging face, uh, and

480

they are, one of the lead lead tech

companies on the on the circuit.

481

And, uh, they come in regularly

and do workshops with the agency

482

to make sure that we're, up

to speed on the latest tech.

483

As MidJourney and Dali have really

caught on, especially in the world of

484

art direction, we've just made sure that

every art director in the building is

485

proficient in, MidJourney and Dali,

just to make sure that, our comps are

486

super tight and we can do things You

know, a lot faster and we can just move

487

at the speed of technology and culture.

488

Brian: That's a.

489

I don't want to say it's scary because

it's so exciting, but you don't know

490

what you don't know, so where do you

draw the lines and how do you let

491

people play and still not make mistakes

that could be, really impactful.

492

Margaret: Yeah, it's,

it's all, it's all true.

493

I mean, you have to approach

it with a conscience.

494

Right?

495

Brian: Way to put it.

496

Yeah.

497

John: Well, I'm comforted too by , your

point that you're urging your creative

498

directors to embrace it and kind of

run, run to the fire, like you said.

499

Because I think a natural reaction

would be to kind of like, Oh,

500

no, let's, let's push away.

501

Let's say that's not a good thing.

502

We shouldn't go down that path.

503

Let's do what we've always done.

504

Margaret: You can see those creatives who

aren't embracing it getting left behind.

505

you really do have to just reframe

your perspective and approach

506

everything with a beginner's mind.

507

And just know that, you know, on

the tech front, things are, they're

508

changing and they're changing fast.

509

And if you're not embracing, then

you're going to be left behind.

510

Brian: What other exciting things do you

see out there about how brands can reach

511

and interact with, with consumers today.

512

Yeah.

513

Margaret: The, the most interesting

thing to me is that there is a lot less.

514

of that one way conversation,

like the fire hose effect, and

515

it's a lot more interactive.

516

So the brand, you know, throws

the ball and then the consumer

517

is throwing the ball back.

518

It's, it's fun.

519

It's a lot more, playful and interactive

and that's what you want, right?

520

You want people to love your

brand and want to be a part of it.

521

That's what's going to make them.

522

Talk about it and want

to buy your products.

523

So again, like a good guide is

just make sure you're making

524

stuff people care about.

525

So then they'll throw the ball back.

526

John: Margaret, I've heard, Rich

Silverstein say that clients

527

get the work they deserve.

528

And I've heard him say,

yeah, as someone who.

529

You know, personally, I've always

been kind of turned off by seeing

530

clients who treat their marketing

partners poorly or like a commodity.

531

Um, I've always really liked that

sentiment, and I was wondering if

532

you could talk a little bit about

what makes a great client partner.

533

You've talked about the Super Bowl

ads and how early you start and

534

how you've been very able to kind

of navigate, uh, tough creative

535

decisions in the moment with them.

536

But what, on their side, what are the

characteristics of a good client partner?

537

Margaret: Transparency

is a big part of it.

538

Like being really clear with your agency.

539

On what's the objective?

540

Is it to sit in the middle of culture?

541

Is it to drive sales?

542

And if so, what's that mark?

543

What goal are we trying to achieve?

544

Because without that information,

you know, creative is just

545

that it's just creative.

546

So you kind of need to have that goal in

mind when you're from the very beginning,

547

when you're even thinking of of the ideas.

548

And I think just being, really

honest even when it's hard.

549

So, you know, I think a lot of times

clients will, when in a situation, where

550

they're giving feedback, they aren't maybe

as brutally honest as, as they should be.

551

It ends up being a disservice if you

sugarcoat things especially in the

552

case of something like Super Bowl,

times of the essence and you're

553

moving quickly and there's a lot of

mistake and you want to make sure

554

that everyone is, on the same page.

555

That's how you're going to be successful.

556

Brian: Um, what are some of the ways that

kind of a support model has changed in,

557

in terms of like your creative resources,

that you put in place to support a

558

brand, you know, is the makeup of those.

559

That staff, has it changed or

do you need different types

560

of resources to support them

561

Margaret: well.

562

For us, our innovation labs a

big part of every brief now.

563

So it used to be that, the strategy

department would present, the

564

creatives with a brief and that's

the way it would all begin.

565

But now we bring in our innovation

lab from the very beginning because

566

we want tech to be a part of every

idea that we put out into the world.

567

John: I gather from everything you've been

saying about technology and, traditional

568

creative skill sets, there are probably

some really rewarding campaigns recently

569

that have combined those things, anything

recently that stands out in terms of

570

being super rewarding because it does

bridge, the human creative components

571

and the emotional touch along with a

real strong interactive component.

572

Margaret: Yeah, well, for me personally,

I, and this, we kind of came up with

573

this idea in the agency, but I have

a nonprofit with my daughter called

574

Daughters of the Evolution, and,

um, it all kind of started with.

575

Us doing a panel at Cannes about

they had asked me to do a panel

576

about being a woman in advertising.

577

And at the time, my daughter was 9 and

said, that sounds like a really boring

578

John: Thanks for the

vote of confidence, honey

579

Margaret: And I was like, you know what?

580

And she's like, you've already

done that talk a million times.

581

And I was like, okay, you're right.

582

, well, maybe they'd rather , listen

to, to what you have to say.

583

And so we ended up inviting, five CCOs

and their daughters, all different ages.

584

Up on stage, it can to hear

their perspective on that thing.

585

We came out of that.

586

My daughter and I were

like, you know what?

587

We're going to make

daughters of the evolution.

588

We're going to turn that into a nonprofit.

589

And so we did that.

590

And the first.

591

Thing that we put out into the world was,

an AR app and, , it was kind of born out

592

of my daughter who, came home one day and

was like, why is it that there are no?

593

Women in this history

book that I'm studying.

594

And so I went to the innovation

lab and I was like, this, this has

595

to be like easy for us to solve.

596

We're never going to change

the actual textbook, right?

597

But if we could create

just like a simple AR app.

598

So if you hovered over the picture of.

599

Abraham Lincoln, or George Washington, or

all the faces that you're used to seeing

600

in these history books, and you were,

um, served up an image and a story of a

601

woman that you probably never heard of,

but did something equally cool around

602

that same time, that has to be possible.

603

And they were like, that's 100 percent

possible because, there weren't that

604

many photographs taken back then, so.

605

We can create an app that will

register all those photos.

606

We'll just feed those photos into

the app and every book has the

607

same photos because there just

weren't that many being taken and,

608

John: cool idea.

609

Margaret: but that's how we came up

with Lessons in Her Story and, you know,

610

we launched it at South by Southwest.

611

Uh, and immediately, like, Davos picked

it up, and it kind of spread like

612

wildfire, the Smithsonian was interested,

and, that one is, for me, personally,

613

one that, that I'm really proud of.

614

Brian: That's incredible.

615

John: It really is.

616

That's a fantastic

617

Margaret: All right, that was kind

of a long story, a long answer.

618

John: it's a great story, and I

love that it originated with an

619

observation from your daughter.

620

That's really neat.

621

Margaret: Yeah.

622

John: so, speaking of that, can we

talk about the 3 percent Movement?

623

I know that that's an initiative that

is committed to addressing the fact that

624

women and people of color are incredibly

underrepresented in senior creative roles.

625

Can you talk about some of the progress

that movement's made, and how close it's

626

getting to what remains a tremendous gap?

627

Margaret: Well, it's amazing to me

that like 80 percent of all, purchase

628

decisions are made by, by women.

629

and there are so few women that are

at the top, , on the creative side.

630

And that's, we have made progress.

631

When I got involved in 3%, that's,

that's actually what that stat.

632

Represented when there were only 3

percent of the creative directors in

633

the industry were women at the time.

634

And I think we're up to

12 percent or something.

635

So we are, we are making progress,

but we're still still work to be done.

636

But I admire Kat Gordon.

637

She is the 1 who really spearheaded

that whole effort in the beginning

638

and invited me to be a part of it.

639

At the very, very beginning, I was a

part of the, , very 1st conference and,

640

she's just made a tremendous

impact on the industry.

641

John: That's cool.

642

Yeah, I saw on the website that, is

there something like only like four

643

categories where men are actually the

primary decision maker, but everything

644

else it's, it's, you know, it's equal

or majority female decided, right?

645

Margaret: Yep.

646

Yeah,

647

John: So, contrast that with still

how far away it is from 50 50 split

648

in terms of chief creative officers.

649

It's amazing.

650

Margaret: I'm really proud of, you

know, at our agency, when I became a

651

partner, I was one, the only woman, but

one of, I think it was six at the time.

652

And, um, now we're 50 50.

653

So I'm proud of that.

654

Brian: Can you tell us a little bit about

, your own career journey trajectory,

655

um, at Goodby and, you know, how you've

moved along the way and, some of the

656

important people that have kind of

helped you get to where you are today.

657

Margaret: Yeah, I mean,

I started at the bottom.

658

Uh, well, actually, this is

kind of an interesting story.

659

When I was at the portfolio center,

I went to an ad school after

660

I got out of UNC Chapel Hill.

661

And, um, I used to

follow this art director.

662

His name was, uh, Jeremy Foster.

663

And I always loved his work because

it didn't feel like advertising.

664

It felt very editorial and artistic.

665

And.

666

I was, I just always

wanted to, to do that.

667

I wanted to make my stuff look like that.

668

And, um, so let's say I loosely patterned

my portfolio after his and guess what?

669

I sent him my portfolio and he liked

it and he hired me for my first job.

670

Uh, he worked at Litter Bonnie Handley,

Barton Kelly and Providence Rhode Island.

671

And, he had grown up at Goodby

Silverstein and Partners and He was now

672

working at this little shop that was

run by David Lubar's in Providence, and

673

pretty much as soon as I got there, he

moved back to San Francisco and took his

674

old job back at, uh, Goodby Silverstein.

675

And, uh, so I ended up leaving Providence.

676

I went to Dallas.

677

I worked for a guy named Grant Richards,

who then, like, almost as soon as I

678

got there, left and came to, To GSP and

then these two guys brought me here.

679

So that's how I actually landed at GSP.

680

And then, like I said, I just kind

of worked my way up from the bottom.

681

I started out as a junior art

director and then just over

682

time kind of worked my way up.

683

John: So that's a pretty rare

situation where you've got someone

684

who's a chief creative officer

whose tenure is not exclusively

685

but largely at the same agency.

686

I know agency folks tend to hop

around a lot, um, so I think that

687

must be a testament to kind of the

relationships you've built there.

688

Margaret: Well, I had great,

I had two great teachers.

689

John: yeah, so that was, that was the

other part of the, Brian's question and

690

the one I'm curious about too is like, you

know, who, who's kind of lifted you up?

691

I know you like to lift

others while you're rising.

692

Who's lifted you up?

693

Margaret: You know, Rich and Jeff

are incredible teachers, mentors.

694

They've just always been,

they advocate for great ideas.

695

They, aren't too hands on,

but help you when you need it.

696

And I don't know, I'm just really

fortunate that I had both of them kind

697

of watching after me along the way.

698

. Brian: What advice do you have for

young creatives kind of getting into the

699

business and into the industry overall?

700

Margaret: Stay hungry.

701

I was telling the story, to a group

of, we have a school here called the

702

Academy, an in house advertising school.

703

And I was telling the incoming

class that they were like, well,

704

what do you mean stay hungry?

705

And I was like, okay, here's an

example when I was at UNC Chapel Hill.

706

I was in the advertising sequence, but

the program was really geared towards

707

newspaper writing and I took a class

at Parsons School Design in New York

708

during summer school and then realized

that, okay, I'm supposed to be on.

709

The other side, not the writing side,

but I want to be on the art side and

710

I need to put a portfolio together and

they just didn't offer that at Carolina.

711

And so the day I was leaving New

York, and this will date me, but I

712

like tore out the yellow pages out

of a phone book that was on out on

713

the street in front of my apartment.

714

And I took it back with me to Chapel Hill.

715

And I was like, okay, I have to figure

out how to put this portfolio together.

716

I'm just going to call all

these agencies and ask someone.

717

And so I started cold calling all

these advertising agencies in New York.

718

Now, I mean, if you think about

it, like J Walter Thompson and BBDO

719

New York at the time were giant.

720

giant agencies.

721

And here I am in my dorm

room in Chapel Hill calling.

722

I'm like, Hey, may I speak to

someone in the creative department?

723

And they're like, anyone?

724

I'm like, yeah, anyone.

725

They're like, okay.

726

Put me through.

727

Some poor soul answers the phone.

728

And I'm like, Hey, I'm a student at

the University of North Carolina.

729

And I'm just curious, like, where do you

put those portfolios together that people

730

have that want to get into advertising?

731

And And 9 out of 10 creatives said

there's a school in Atlanta that

732

helps people put portfolios together.

733

It's called the Portfolio Center.

734

So, then I had my answer.

735

But that, I probably called 40 agencies.

736

Brian: God,

737

Margaret: The kind of like hunger

that I like to see and people, you

738

know, when I'm interviewing them,

cause I know those people really

739

care and they really want it.

740

John: Does anyone still do that?

741

Do you, have you ever

gotten a call like that?

742

Or is it all just LinkedIn and

743

Margaret: No, I think I'm the only

crazy one crazy enough to do that.

744

Brian: You know, you definitely had

to work a lot harder back then in

745

terms of, finding people, you know,

picking up the phone and having to

746

call people and, , much less back

then having to print and mail all your

747

resumes around to spend your portfolio.

748

Yeah,

749

John: but, but, but you could stand

out with a phone call a little bit

750

easier than you probably can today

with a LinkedIn connection request,

751

maybe.

752

All

753

Margaret: Yeah, it's true.

754

John: right, so let's bring back

yellow pages, phone booths, and hunger.

755

I think that's what we've learned today.

756

Margaret: Stay hungry.

757

That's right.

758

John: Margaret, we had a lot of questions

we wanted to ask you, and I think we

759

covered almost all of them, and you've

been so good at answering them, and

760

just interesting stories and fantastic

perspectives, so thank you so much.

761

It's been great.

762

Margaret: Thanks so much for

asking me to be on the podcast.

763

John: Beyond thrilled to have you.

764

And I feel like maybe with your,

uh, celebrity connections, maybe

765

you could help us with one of our

hopelessly unattainable guests.

766

We end each episode with a open

letter to a hopelessly unattainable

767

guest, and we are 0 for 10 so far,

and we'll, we'll send you the list,

768

Margaret: Okay, great.

769

Send it over.

770

I'll do what I can.

771

John: open some doors for us.

772

Brian: All right, thank you very much.

773

Margaret: Thanks, you guys.

774

That was fun.

775

John: Thanks, Margaret.

776

Brian: All right.

777

That was fantastic.

778

John.

779

That was

780

John: She's great.

781

Brian: Yeah.

782

Yeah.

783

She's wonderful.

784

Great perspective.

785

Um, Really awesome to talk to somebody

who's, in that seat and, making real

786

decisions that we see every day.

787

John: Yeah.

788

Talk about making decisions

at the top of an industry.

789

Brian: Yeah.

790

Yeah.

791

It's awesome.

792

John: All right.

793

Speaking top of, uh, industries.

794

You got any, uh, top talent

you're trying to bring in to,

795

to be a guest in the future?

796

Brian: Yeah.

797

Yeah.

798

Yeah.

799

I think I got a good target for us.

800

You know, uh, it might be, it

might be a tough catch, but,

801

let's see what we can do.

802

I am targeting, uh, Mr.

803

Tiger Woods.

804

John: Ooh!

805

Good.

806

Brian: So, uh, let me read my plea here.

807

,

John: Please do, because so far they've been real effective.

808

Brian: yes.

809

John: Alright, this is the one that gets,

this is the one that lands the big fish.

810

Go ahead.

811

Come on.

812

Brian: All right.

813

Dear tiger woods.

814

I can't believe I'm writing

you to join my podcast.

815

It's a dream come true.

816

Back in the day of the kid graduating

from college, as you were beginning

817

to demolish the PGA tour, I attempted

to sell a humor piece, speaking

818

to other golfers to conspire, to

take you down a lot, Julius Caesar.

819

You were too good for the game.

820

No one else could get any attention.

821

It was all tiger all the time.

822

Everyone else was irrelevant.

823

No one ever published my

article for good reason.

824

Your existence in golf brought all

players and the game to a level.

825

I had never seen more money, more

sponsors, more TV, larger events.

826

Everyone benefited in your

excellence before you.

827

It was nice to be , competitive

most weeks on tour with you.

828

You expected to win every single time.

829

You're a super legend that we

definitely won't see again.

830

We're both at inflection

points in our lives, Tiger.

831

You're less than two years away from

the senior circuit, the champions tour.

832

How crazy is that?

833

I know I hate talking about age too.

834

You recently parted ways with Nike

after an incredible 27 year run and

835

just launched a questionable new brand

with Taylor made called Sunday red.

836

Featuring a weird looking tiger

print animal, but good for you.

837

We all need to take risks.

838

Let's talk about it together on

this podcast, Snap Decisions.

839

This time you won't have to

look for any knives in the back.

840

Sincerely, Brian and John.

841

John: There's a lot going on there.

842

I'm not sure about my name on that one.

843

Wait, was it positive?

844

Brian: Yeah,

845

John: I heard you make

fun of his new brand.

846

Uh, I heard that you wrote a humor

piece trying to take him down.

847

Brian: I did.

848

John: okay.

849

Um, okay.

850

Yeah.

851

I, how could he say no?

852

Yep.

853

Print it.

854

Ship it.

855

Why don't you put your return

address on that one, would you?

856

Brian: All right.

857

We'll let you know how that makes it out.

858

John: Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, our

audience will know when they see,

859

, future podcasts featuring Tiger Woods.

860

Brian: All right.

861

Until next time.

862

John: Have a good day!

863

Brian: See you later.

864

Let's shut it down.