Candid Conversations from the SUPERZOO Show Floor: Cutting Through the Noise with Disruptor Clayton Payne

00:20

Jordan Tyler

or, Clayton attended SUPERZOO: 2025

01:09

Jordan Tyler

We brought him into our soundproof podcasting booth right there on the show floor to pick his brain about what it really means to disrupt an industry, which products pet owners are more likely to trust and why, and how pet owners can cut through overwhelming labels, buzzwords and trends to find products that actually work for them and their pets. So, without further ado, let's get into it. Welcome to Barking Mad, a podcast by BSM Partners. I'm your host, Jordan Tyler.

01:37

Clayton Payne

Okay, so my name is Clayton Payne. I'm the host of the Pet Business Disruptors podcast, which is the most downloaded pet industry podcast in the world. I also spend a lot of my time bringing UK and EU brands to market in the US and vice versa. I'm also heavily involved in insect agriculture and the future of sustainable protein. But I've been in the industry my whole life. So, I grew up in a pet store. I was a distributor for more than 20 years. I've worked as a consultant working with some of the biggest brands in Europe. Yeah, and here at SUPERZOO to, you know, just get some UK brands some coverage and get people interested and hyped around innovation.

02:19

Jordan Tyler

Very cool. Well, we're glad you're here and thanks for stopping by.

02:22

Clayton Payne

Yeah, no, sure.

02:23

Jordan Tyler

I think it's funny, some of the most interesting people in the pet industry, I think, are people that like started off stocking shelves at retail or like, you know, running samples in like a plant. And so, when you have that like deep boots on the ground experience and then, you know, grow into the industry as it evolves, I think it's a really interesting perspective.

02:42

Clayton Payne

And actually, to be honest, one thing I do purposely is I still do, like, retail shows. So, I work with—some of the brands I work with, I'll say to them, like, if you're doing a retail show this weekend and I'm not doing nothing, I'll come run the booth just because I want to speak to the end user all the time. Because I think, like, it's very easy to get put in an ivory tower and then get echo chambered with a lot of people who are just there to agree with each other. And then you just bring out garbage over and over again. And really what I'm interested in is what the people really want. What does the average man on the street want, what are the people talking about?

03:17

Clayton Payne

Like, you know, I go to everything from the dog shows to holistic conferences to retail festivals and that sort of stuff. And, you know, understanding how the consumer mentality works is as important as actually understanding how to bring a product to market. Bring it, you know, package it, send it, distribute, etc. So, I try and keep myself relevant and I think that's probably why I've survived so long.

03:43

Jordan Tyler

I like that you bring up like not getting into an echo chamber and, like, keeping the end consumer and the consumer trends in mind all the time. You really do have to tap into different kinds of events and different types of communities to be able to do that. Because if you just go to industry trade shows, you can just get, you know, kind of inundated with, “This is just how it's done.” And I think it might create, like, a stagnation in innovation, perhaps.

04:07

Clayton Payne

Well, I think the problem is a lot of people base stuff purely off data. And I think if you do that, you're always behind the curve. Because when you look at how the industry moves, if we're doing today what we were doing five years ago, like, we're not relevant anymore. And I mean, and you can sort of like throw that back 30 years. I mean, I can obviously remember what was happening 30 years ago. And like, if you were still doing that stuff today, you're ludicrous, you know? And so, I always say you've got to be like, in business, you got to be like a shark. You’ve got to keep swimming forward because if you don't, you're going to drown. And so like, actually being on that cutting edge is really important.

04:44

Clayton Payne

I think it's hard for some of the big companies to do because they're very big buses to turn. They need a lot of meetings to get things done. And for me, that's why I kind of like being flexible and on the ground and like, you know, being able to pivot quickly and hear what's going on, put two and two together, say, “Okay, this would work. Let's just bring this to market, let's do this in a low-risk, fast and furious sort of fashion.” So that's kind of why I, you know, obviously my podcast is called Pet Business Disruptors, because I've always been that disrupting factor, like bringing something out new faster and more efficiently than, let's say, the big guys do, you know?

05:22

Jordan Tyler

Yeah, yeah, we see that all the time in the US. I'm sure that's just kind of like a ubiquitous thing with large companies in any industry, really.

05:30

Clayton Payne

Yeah, for sure. And also, again, it's very easy to be that guy who's, let's say, you know, a VP of something or a president or something, and you just become so divorced from actually what's on the ground, you know? And I love talking to people and I'm obviously an obsessive pet person myself. I have five dogs and pet emus and God knows what else. And, you know, I'm obsessed with like trying things all the time and saying, you know, looking at what's going, how could I tweak this to make this more appealing? How could I take a functional treat and make it part of somebody's daily routine as opposed to a product which nobody quite knows when to use? Do you know what I mean? So, I'm very much into that side of it. It’s about building like mentalities amongst people.

06:17

Clayton Payne

If I'm going to do this, it needs to fit into my daily routine. And how do I do that? Because there's a lot of products out there which are almost great, but there's just something missing and they just, you know, this happens all the time. And again, it's about just getting consumer feedback, about getting retailer feedback. And like I say, look, I was lucky. I ran a distributor for 20 odd years. But also, I was very much involved with my customer base. So, you know, and I still talk to them regularly and say, you know, “What's doing well for you? Why isn't this selling?” Like, “If you did it like this, would it sell better?” Do you know what I mean? So, and I'm lucky enough that I'm friendly with enough people that I can just sit down and have these conversations continuously, you know?

07:00

Jordan Tyler

Yeah, I mean, if you think about the pet industry and just like pet ownership in general, it's very relational, it's very emotional. People are super passionate about it. It's, you know, kind of about community too. And so, you almost have to approach like market research and the way that you develop products that way too. Like, you can't leave out the relational aspect of it. Like, just go into a store and talk to people.

07:24

Clayton Payne

Everything is about community. Everything is like, everyone wants to feel part of a tribe and everybody wants to talk to people who are authentic. I mean, if you look at, you know, we're in the era of personal brand now, and like, you know, if you look at, let's say, Instagram followings of Elon Musk compared to Tesla, or Richard Branson compared to Virgin, or you know—people want to connect with the people who are behind the brands and they want to, like, feel part of that person's community. Do I like this person? Do I vibe with their ethics? And I think it's very important for brands to become community people and again, put themselves out there not just as the brand, but also as the people behind the brand.

08:05

Clayton Payne

Let them—let people really understand who you are, because it's harder to turn away from a person you really like than the brand you like. And you know what, how many times have you actually, you know, seen the brand, you really like the brand, and then you've met the people behind the brand and you've gone, “I actually really don't like this person now. I absolutely hate this brand.” And it's not even the product anymore. Do you know what I mean? So, I think, like, that relationship building is so important. And look, we—you know, people want this information, they want the nuance. They want to know who these people are so that when they listen to them, they can go, “Yeah, do you know what?

08:37

Clayton Payne

I love the products, but also this person, like, really vibes with how I feel about things,” you know. So, putting yourself out there and actually letting people know who you are is really important.

08:46

Jordan Tyler

100%. Yeah. So, I want to talk a little bit about, you know, you've been in the industry, obviously for a long time, and you've probably seen a lot of, like, trends come and go. And I'm curious on your perspective, kind of what you've seen and what you think, like, comes top of mind as, like, some of the landmarks along how the pet industry has evolved since you've been a part of it.

09:07

Clayton Payne

rking in the pet store in the: 1980

09:47

Clayton Payne

And again, like, it's easier to get messaging out in a way, like, if you can get enough people behind you, enough people shouting your cause. And I think that's what we're seeing. And so, I think there's been some quite telling movements in the market. But then also, look, there's also the humanization aspect. I actually hate talking about humanization of animals. But if we just look at the, let's say the cat market, for example, I mean, we know about the humanization of the dog market. That's been—this has been going on for a long time, but we're seeing it in the cat market too. So, in the UK, the stats are: 10 years ago, 15% of cats were indoor cats. Today it's more than 30%. We're seeing Gen Z and Millennials becoming indoor cat owners.

10:29

Clayton Payne

And with that's coming, like, we're looking for a whole food cat, you know, high-meat content cat food. We're looking for supplements, we're looking for, like, dental products. We're looking for things that actually really enhance our cat's life rather than they just go out, you know, crap in your next-door neighbor's garden and, you know, maybe it comes home and eats dinner there, you know, but it's kind of your cat… ish. And look, obviously I've spent time in places like Paraguay and South America and places like that, and the pet industry there is kind of how it was in the UK and US maybe 30, 35 years ago.

11:04

Clayton Payne

But we're seeing those changes even in those markets where there's increasing humanization, people are looking more and more for, you know, better quality products, more targeted solutions, as that humanization process is happening even in the developing world.

11:21

Jordan Tyler

So, I would agree, like, a lot of the innovation that I've read about and seen even over the last like 10 years has been new formats, new like philosophies around nutrition, new philosophies around pet care. But I think to your point, a lot of that is fueled by just our access to information and, like, the barrier to entry for this market is so low now because, you know, if you have a great idea and you're able to pull that idea off, you know, you can just, like, make a TikTok account and it can go crazy. If you have the right strategy, of course.

11:54

Jordan Tyler

But I was talking to somebody yesterday and they were like, in like the 70s, if I wanted to like become like a rock star, I'd have to, you know, go through a studio and produce like an EP and like, you know, go through all these different gates. And these days you can just get on TikTok and like start singing and like, if you're good enough, if you have the right strategy or the right audience, then you can make it right?

12:15

Clayton Payne

100%. I mean, look at the podcast space. I mean, we're obviously talking on the podcast and my podcast does extremely well and I'm not quite sure why. I didn't need a podcast network behind me. I just created content, put it out like, you know, gave it to people. People liked it, they shared it, they moved it on and it keeps moving, you know, and I think that's just the way the world is now, is that actually a lot of the things which we needed years ago are now redundant or don't make sense in the same way they did. And even products, I mean, historically, if you didn't have a distributor, like how the hell are you going to sell your products into the market? But we've got D2C, we've got Amazon, you know, we've got eBay, we've got TikTok shop.

13:03

Clayton Payne

There's all these different platforms now where we can actually, you know, you can build a brand just on TikTok shop. You can build a million-dollar-a-year brand just selling on TikTok shop. I mean, it's that crazy. And look, that, it's great because again, what we're doing is we're tapping into people's orbit and at the same time we don't actually have to pay the gatekeepers anymore to do that. And I think that's a fantastic thing. I mean, look, it makes things tough. There's a different level of competition now. When I think back to how when I was distributing, I feel like I was a bit of a gatekeeper 25 years ago and that I had tremendous power.

13:45

Clayton Payne

But for me, I was more obsessed with bringing new products to market, whereas I know a lot of my competitors, where they struggled is they bullied brands, you know, Whereas now brands can't be bullied in the same way anymore because they don't need you. We don't need Chewy, we don't need Petco, we don't need PetSmart. We can, you know, get a good business off the ground without those people. It's a very different world we're living in.

14:08

Jordan Tyler

That's a good way to put it. It's just like the paradigm has shifted. Like the paradigm of power around the industry. Who holds the power? And I would argue too, that, like, you know, we can forget about the consumer because we're so inundated just being in the industry and thinking about operations and pricing and supply chain and stuff like that. But I would argue the consumer has a lot of power these days too. Like, just because they have more of a voice and, you know, cancel culture, if you will, all of that.

14:36

Clayton Payne

But also, it's the consumers, and I talk about this a lot, is that consumers are very different now because what they strive for now is authority and authenticity. And like, if you're a pet shop in a town and you sell hamsters and budgie food and—

14:55

Jordan Tyler

Okay, for those of us who are uncultured in the wonderful world of British English, because I had to look these up, not going to lie. When Clayton says, “budgie feed,” he means bird feed, specifically for parakeets, which are popular pet birds in both Europe and America. They just call them budgies. In just a minute, he'll refer to “sand sheets,” which also refer to the lining often found inside bird cages for said budgies. The more you know!

15:28

Clayton Payne

—all this and other, like, loads and loads of products, like, spanning the range. Do you hold that authenticity anymore? Because, again, we can buy all this stuff online. When we go in bricks and mortar, we're looking for people who really get it. This is why in the UK we have, like, a massive rise in raw stores. In the US, you've got apothecaries, and these are people who are stocking a wide range of very specialist products. But they're not. They're not trying to sell you budgie feed and sand sheets. They're saying to you, look, if you've got a yeast problem with your dog, if you've got, let's say, you know, bone damage or ligament damage, there's all these great products which wouldn't have made it into the market in the same way 25 years ago, because everyone had to be generalist.

16:12

Clayton Payne

Whereas now we can be specialist and we can be focused and we can be niche and create authority around what we're doing. And I think it's just a very different landscape. And again, there's a lot of people from the past who just haven't quite got on that train yet because they're scared of losing a sale.

16:30

Jordan Tyler

That's so true. Yeah. So many people in the industry try to be everything to everyone, or at the very least, too many things too many people. And it's like, there are so many niches to this. To your point, pick one, you know, pick one and do it really well, and they will come.

16:47

Clayton Payne

Yeah. It's funny, like. So, one thing I talk to brands about a lot, so when I was consulting is that, like, when it comes to USP delivery—so, unique selling point delivery. Have one, don't have five. I mean, your product might do five, but I don't care. Choose one. Because the problem is, and this is why multivitamins struggle, because what does it do? Well, people buy reactively, not proactively. They part with money for problem solutions. So, you're hungry, you buy food. You don't take a paracetamol today in case you got a headache tomorrow. You don't go and get like, you know, cough medicine today if you haven't got a cough, just in case. You buy reactively. If I've got a product that does five things, I'm just going to assume they don't do any of them particularly well.

17:32

Clayton Payne

But if I say to you, “Look, this is a product for dental health,” let's say it's a seaweed product and it's for dental health. But seaweed also is great for skin. It's great for coat. It's got lots of other added benefits. But if you start talking about those benefits, what you're doing is you're watering down your offering. That's not to say that people won't buy your product, like come to your business or buy your products for other reasons. But that driving force has to be leaned into so effectively.

17:59

Jordan Tyler

Yeah, it's like, you know, in order to attract the right consumer and to retain that right consumer, be super focused and targeted with what that offering is and what problem that's solving for that particular consumer. And then once you have that consumer and they're loyal to you and they understand that this product works for this problem that they're trying to solve, you know, continuing that education into, “Okay, but did you also know that your pet might benefiting from this?” Like, that's just a value add at that point. But if, you know, if you do it the wrong way, it becomes too complicated and turns people off.

18:31

Clayton Payne

You just have to—I always put myself in the mind of the consumer. If I’ve got a cough, do I want a cough medicine that also is great for my… I don’t know, hair follicles and nails, you know, or great for my knees or something. I don't want that. I want a cough medicine, I want to get rid of this cough. And again, you see in a lot of like let's say service industries, so for example, like dog trainers, they just go crazy about, “I'm force free,” or sustainability, “I'm sustainable.” This doesn't solve problems. Like sustainability is great, but like put it down the list, don't promote. That's not your cutting edge. The market for people who just want something sustainable…

19:08

Clayton Payne

People want something that works first and then they want it to be sustainable second or third on the list. And it's sort of, it's good to have it maybe in the corner and say look, we're a sustainable company, blah blah blah. And then they can fall into your ethics. But products got to work first, and it's got to be very focused. So, it's like nobody ever walks into a pet store and goes, “What's your most sustainable dog food?” Like no one ever has said that, and yet I've seen brands and that's been their edge. “We're a sustainable dog food company,” great. But does it do the job you need it to do? It's about focusing in on like what you do really well. Leaning into it, but making sure it's an actual real problem that you're solving. Because if you're not solving a real problem, why would somebody be driven to buy that product?

19:51

Jordan Tyler

I think people are really starting to come around that and coming out on the other side and focusing more on health benefits and problem solution statements. But the novel protein sector of the industry, it's so important, right? It's important that we explore these things. But I think where a lot of companies have maybe gotten it wrong in the early days was yeah, sustainability. And that's our claim to fame and that's why everybody's going to love us. And it's like actually, there's probably a couple other priorities in there, right?

20:18

Clayton Payne

So like, obviously I've been involved in the insect industry and, like, I've worked with like insect-based companies. And again, their whole drive was initially sustainable, hypoallergenic. So, two terms no one actually cares about. But really, where is the benefit of black soldier flies? It’s high in lauric acid—40 times more than normal, which is great for immune system, et cetera et cetera. These are the sort of things which you can play on so you can call it an immune-boost dog food. And then that then makes more sense than hypoallergenic. Because what even does that mean? It's like a nonsense term.

20:53

Jordan Tyler

Yeah, it doesn't mean anything.

20:54

Clayton Payne

No. And like, you know when you're in the pet store choosing your brand of dog food, you're going to have something very focused in your mind as to what you want to buy. So, focus on that, like, because the truth is that you're looking at a wall of dog food. You have to make a decision. So, your decisions are going to be governed by what screams to you as being the most important to solve your problem.

21:16

Jordan Tyler

Yeah, yeah, totally. So, I want to kind of come back to something you said earlier. You mentioned you help UK brands get into the US and vice versa. And I kind of wanted to get your thoughts on what is coming out of the UK that is really resonating with US consumers and what's coming out of the US that's really resonating with UK consumers.

21:37

Clayton Payne

So, I think both markets do things, like, well. So, I think where the UK really gets it right for the US is that they're very straightforward low ingredient list products. If you look at the back of a packet, and this is my criticism of US companies, you look at the back of a packet, of a product, and the list is as long as your arm and you don't even know what's in there, to be honest. It's not great for the consumer and where people are a lot more educated on looking at ingredients, on looking at what's in the product. The US has fallen a little bit behind on that side of it against the UK. So, the UK is very good at creating very good functional products which are very simple, low ingredients, and very good in the holistic market as well.

22:25

Clayton Payne

I think where America is very strong is they've got very strong ability around certain processes. So, their freeze-dry processing and their ability, they're so far ahead of Europe on this stuff. They've been playing with it a lot longer, so they're a lot more developed. The truth is, as well, is that innovation can come from anywhere. It's not even that one particular sector sometimes is better than the other. It's just that there can be someone with a great idea in one market, brings it to market and that can go anywhere. And it's just really all I do is I just try and facilitate that movement across because when people in the UK look, again, into the US, it just seems like this enormous, like, behemoth to try and tackle.

23:09

Clayton Payne

And then same thing with, like, you know, the US and Canadian brands coming into the UK and Europe. They look at all the languages and they look at the structure. It's because structurally, Europe is very different to the US, and so it's really just helping people navigate those waters. And because a good product is a good product and will sell anywhere, it really, all I try and do is help people, like, understand the market they're looking at.

23:34

Jordan Tyler

Yeah, yeah. There's so much nuance, and the consumer never sees any of that, hardly. But it's still there.

23:41

Clayton Payne

Yeah.

23:43

Jordan Tyler

Well, I hate to say goodbye. This has been really great, really illuminating. but before we wrap up today, I'd love to hear about your five dogs. Five dogs is a lot of dogs, right? But it’s the pet industry, we all love pets. That’s kind of the whole reason we're here. So, tell me about your fur babies.

24:02

Clayton Payne

So I have four Eurasiers and I have a Chuandong Hound. So Eurasiers are a—they're over here, they're in the US. They're a German breed, which are like a mixture of a Chow Chow and a Keystone. And my dogs are all getting old now. My oldest one's 15, 11, 10, 8, and 4, of my five dogs. And yeah, they're just my babies, to be honest. They're like, I love them more than my kids, for sure.

24:30

Jordan Tyler

On the record.

24:31

Clayton Payne

Yeah. No, it's not even close. I openly say that to my kids too, you know, because, yeah, my kids don't wake me up with kissing my face. So, you know, it's like…

24:44

Jordan Tyler

I mean, they drive a hard bargain.

24:45

Clayton Payne

Exactly, exactly. And they cost me a lot less as well.

24:52

Jordan Tyler

d conversations From SUPERZOO: 2025

break from the family chaos and want to hide in a quiet room with your headphones and a plate of cookies. It's okay, we've all been there.

26:20

Jordan Tyler

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Barking Mad. If you want to learn more about BSM Partners, please visit us at www.bsmpartners.net. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite leading podcast platform and share this episode with a friend to stay current on the latest pet industry trends and conversations. We'd also like to thank our dedicated team, Ada-Miette Thomas, Neeley Bowden, Kait Wright, Cady Wolf, and Dr. Katy Miller. A special shout out to Lee Ann Hagerty and Michael Johnson in support of this episode, and to David Perez for our original music in the intro and outro. See you next time!

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