Shownotes
🔥 In this episode, we dive into various thought-provoking topics, offering our signature common sense commentary. Here are three key takeaways from the episode:
1️⃣ The Importance of Parental Choice in Education: We discuss the reasons why some parents choose private schools over public schools, including concerns about standardized test scores, limited opportunities, violence, and cultural influences. We analyze the impact of school vouchers and the ongoing lawsuit by 250 Ohio school districts against the voucher program.
2️⃣ Championing Free Speech: We highlight the case of Coach Kim Russell, who spoke out against transgender inclusion in women's sports, sparking controversy and criticism from Oberlin College. We commend her courage in expressing her opinion despite potential challenges and discuss the importance of fair competition in women's sports.
3️⃣ Examining Law Enforcement and Public Perception: We delve into a recent incident involving the shooting of a woman by a police officer during a confrontation. We explore the concept of reasonable suspicion and raise questions about compliance and the use of force. While tragic, we encourage open discussion and acknowledge the complexities surrounding such incidents.
🔍 Curious to learn more? You can watch the full episode of Common Sense Ohio on our website, commonsenseohioshow.com. Don't forget to subscribe, like, and share to help us expand our reach and bring common sense commentary to a wider audience!
📚 And while you're at it, check out our blog section where you can find articles written by Norm, Brett, and Steve. We love hearing your feedback and appreciate your support as we continue to provide thought-provoking content.
Remember, at Common Sense Ohio, we strive to offer perspectives rooted in common sense, while remaining open to different opinions and acknowledging the ever-changing nature of discussions. Together, let's foster intelligent dialogue on the issues that matter.
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson, My Podcast Guy®, is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
Transcripts
Definitely.
Steve Palmer [:Anyway. Common sense. Ohio, we're coming at you, Norm. You got stuff teed up. And now everybody gets to see what I always talk about. Norm's sort of paper Chase over here. He's got his manila folder that is, he's going to hold it up. He's got his manila folder over here, which is getting beaten up. I love it. He's like the old warhorse reporter from.
Brett Johnson [:Paper chase era, that kind of stuff.
Steve Palmer [:The old days. He's going to have his little reporter hat maybe next. And I can see him on a Smith Corona typewriter clacking away.
Norm Murdock [:That's right at home in my era, it was the IBM Selectric. Yeah, the little dancing ball.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, yeah, I learned how to type in high school. Anyway, on the old Smith Corona manual. If you got like, you had to trade. So there was like a handful of IBMS like you're talking about.
Norm Murdock [:But yeah, that was state of the art. The IBM selectric. That would be like having Microsoft Eleven on one of those hard top Microsoft's that they have, the armored one that the NFL promotes. Well, about Italy. Yeah. So the Italians surrendered, but General Kesselring and the German army had a far different opinion of that surrender document. And they fought Mark Clark. And people like Daniel Inaway, the Japanese American, 442nd, most decorated unit ever in military history in the United States, fought in that Italian theater against the Germans and several Medals of Honor and a lot of Distinguished Service Crosses. So it was a bloody battle. Unlike MacArthur, Mark Clark landed in Italy without his pants on. He was deposited on a beach from a submarine and walked in in his, uh because he didn't want to get his pants wet.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, that's interesting.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, that set the tone.
Steve Palmer [:Well, there's a trilogy of books written by a guy named Rick Atkinson, and the first one I read, I confess I've not read the others, but the first one I read, it's an army at dawn. It's sort of about the beginning of our involvement in world war II when we started in africa and that campaign and how it sort of progressed. You wonder, how does Italy topple first? Well, we went into Africa, and then we sort of worked our way up in the underbelly of Germany. And then at the same time, you had Stalin screaming for a second front the whole time. He wanted us in Africa. He wanted a second front, and then he wanted us to invade as quickly as possible into the continent.
Norm Murdock [:Italy featured many clusters by US. Planners, so the anzio beach landing was a complete disaster. Another Mark Clark special operation, the bombing of Monte casino, because there were German snipers and artillery directors using the monastery.
Steve Palmer [:Monastery in the mountains.
Norm Murdock [: school districts out of the: Steve Palmer [:Well, how does that happen?
Norm Murdock [: zen school districts. We have: Steve Palmer [:As I often do on the show, I'm thinking out loud here. It seems to me there's going to be two main objections to this. One is going to be ideologically, and the other one is going to be financially, and financially is probably the one that's steering the ship. I think from the perspective that you're talking about from funding norm, what is the threat to the public schools or the current school system sort of frame the threat that the voucher program has on it from a financial perspective and a funding perspective?
Norm Murdock [:Well, if your kid goes to a school, let's say, that has a terrible passage rate on the standardized tests, or very few students go on to, let's say, a technical school or college or can even qualify to join, the military because they're not educated, because they've learned all the wrong stuff, or they had just terrible conditions. Or perhaps your local school that your kids would go to has a serious track record of violence or some other cultural something that you don't want your kids exposed to. Or maybe you want your kids to be taught values, Judeo Christian values, and they can't do that in a public school, right? That's banned. Some schools won't even let you pray. Even silent prayer has been banned by a lot of public schools. So what they're threatened by, Steve, is the fact that people are going to vote with their feet. And even though this won't affect the schools in terms of the money they get from the state now, because the budget funds both programs and they have fully funded public schools, they gave them an increase, fully funded them. And if a student leaves, let's say, groveport or Gehanna's public school system. They are not extracting the money back out of that school district to give to the parents. They are funding the parents separately for these vouchers. But they know the handwriting is on.
Steve Palmer [:The yeah, once that's because that can't last.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:So what's interesting here is that at least here, your school choice is by and large dictated by where you live. So if you want your children to have be in a good public school, you pick the community you want to go live in and you decide based on the reputation of the know in central Ohio. I think we've been fortunate, at least in the suburbs, to have decent public schools. Now, again, you can argue about the ideology and I think that's going to end up being just as important. I think we're seeing sort of this exodus from the school system, no pun intended, because I think it might be driven a bit by religion. You've got in value systems where particularly during COVID parents were like, hey, I can home school, I can do this, and they just say, I'm not going to play, I'm not going to participate in your games.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. They have a list of the school districts on their website and I thought, well, I'm going to look and see if there's a pattern. I know for a fact a lot of these school districts are from red counties.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:So I don't think it's a Republican Democrat thing. It doesn't look like it is. I think you're right. Reading the handwriting on the wall, where is it going?
Steve Palmer [:This is always the problem and everybody knows where I stand politically, so I'm not going to be shy about it. Seems like this is always the problem of the left. They will vote with their theatrical virtue. So you're going to see the signs in their yards, you're going to see all this crap. But when all of a sudden it comes to their home, all of a sudden when they've got to reap the rewards of these policies, they don't want to do it anymore and they pull out. So I think it might be sort of a veiled, maybe not a party affiliation, but an ideological affiliation. So it's really easy to say that everybody should be able to do this and everybody should be able to do that, but you don't want it in your own backyard. You don't want multifamily housing in your neighborhood because you moved to that neighborhood to have a certain community structure that you like. But you can say that you're for those things because it sounds good and it's virtuous by today's standards, which I'm not giving credit of. In fact, I'm doing the opposite.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Even countering. What countering? What you just mentioned, Norm. But on their website they're saying exactly the opposite of what's happening. They're saying our coalition is growing as more and more school districts join our fight to challenge the constitutionality of the harmful school voucher program that is siphoning funds from our public schools at alarming.
Steve Palmer [:And it's again, future.
Brett Johnson [:Yes, maybe, but it's not doing that now, so that's misleading.
Steve Palmer [:Well, look, if you read anybody and look, the beloved socialism of Scandinavia, if you go read about it, they promote a voucher system. And Thomas Soul go read his books on this stuff and his writings on this stuff. I mean, there's all sorts of reasons why it's good, and it can promote better education for everybody. And look, if you don't have any competition, like if your schools are so good, if your public schools are so great, why do people not want to go there? And that's the question that all these schools should be asking.
Norm Murdock [:They don't want to compete. That's all. They want the monopoly. They want to force you to go to the public school. They don't want you to have choices.
Steve Palmer [:And as I always said, there's always a way, almost always a way to connect the dots with a conspiracy theory. So you could say that they want to have oh, it's not fully fund. Hold on. They want to have only public schools because then the government can dictate the curriculum. There's some truth to that. So if you just go back to, what was it, the Obama years or even before, where they started to just cram down no Child Left Behind and all this consistent, or, quote, consistent curriculum.
Brett Johnson [:It was a large funnel, wasn't it? Large funnel to schools.
Steve Palmer [:They lose control when there's competition. They can't force down the curriculum.
Norm Murdock [:It's money. It's money. The teachers unions are going to lose members as public school students leave public schools and go elsewhere. Naturally, the OEA and the NEA will be losing union members, which is money.
Steve Palmer [:Because those schools need teachers, and they don't have to be presumably norm. They don't have to be union. Right. So if the voucher you know, this is about the same thing we always talk about money, power, and ego. Ego here being the ideology. Right.
Norm Murdock [:The first thing Obama did when he took office was shut down the DC. Voucher program, which was for indigent black families.
Steve Palmer [:Yes.
Norm Murdock [:The first quote, unquote, although I don't know how he's called a black president because he's half white.
Steve Palmer [:But it only matters when it matters.
Norm Murdock [:That's right. So the first black president takes office, he kills off a program to benefit indigent black families in DC. And then the multimillionaire, he and Michelle are send their two girls to the Quaker Friends School, which is a private school that charges probably $100,000.
Steve Palmer [:Right, exactly. So it's all hit the nail on the head.
Norm Murdock [:That's right. And he did it because the NEA was one of other than the Trial Lawyers Association, the NEA was probably the trial lawyers. I'll knock them right out of here. I have no use for them or the know or any of those large groups, the AMA, they simply bought Obama and he followed through. Because the last thing you can have is a successful marketplace of ideas where people get to make their own choices on a level playing field that is the biggest threat to the swamp, whether it's the Columbus swamp or the DC swamp, end of story. Really?
Steve Palmer [:Well, it's me, me. My turn. Anyway, we're going to let's shift gears, Norm. I brought this up early. So Oberlin College in Ohio was in the news the last few years because of the big lawsuit against the it was the coffee shop or the bakery.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, bakery.
Brett Johnson [:Bakery, yeah.
Steve Palmer [:They got oberlin got stung pretty significantly with a jury verdict and an award. And even it went further than that. Their insurance company wouldn't pay, so now they're fighting with the insurance company on who's responsible for what, by the way, anybody who doesn't know Oberlin. Oberlin was sort of the bastion of the liberal, far left leaning educational facilities in the country. In the country because Oberlin was part of what's called the NCAC. The North Coast Athletic Conference. I went to the College of Worcester, which was a sort of a sister school, and at that time things were a little bit different back in the late eighty s and early 90s, but it was shifting quickly. But even back then, Oberlin was considered just way far out there. I mean, way far out there. And just for full disclosure, both my parents went to Oberlin. My dad went to Oberlin back in the 50s, played football, then went to up north to Michigan. We'll talk about that later. But anyway, and then my mom was in music school there. Oberlin hit the news with that lawsuit, and now they're hitting news again. Women's lacrosse head coach Carrie Russell broke her silence about transgender inclusion in women's sports regarding the Riley Gaines swimming controversy. And this is a woman, this is a coach. I've been waiting to see more of this because back when I was in small division three sports, women's sports was like sort of emerging, like they were proud. They had their thing. Now they had women's field hockey, women's lacrosse, women's soccer, and we would go back in the fall for football, and all the girls were there, too, for their fall camps, and it was there, and they got to compete, and nobody had any problem with it. And then they started allowing men to play women's sports. And you can skewer me for saying that, but this has become the problem. These sort of initial warriors to get Title IX and fairness in the sports arena for women in college sports are now apparently Kim Russell, anyway, is now coming out and saying, look, this isn't right. I've been a champion for women's sports my entire career. It's not right for women to compete against men. To me, it's sort of tantamount, meaning about the same as permitting steroids. So you have people who have enhanced ability competing against you, and you don't even have to make it gender. It's like if there's like an unfair enhancement, you're not going to win. I know Rogan has talked about this. When they allowed women to go or a trans guy or a guy who became a woman or whatever it would be to go fight women in mean, it's like a slaughter. It's a know in. Just go look and research this. And you could say that they've taken hormones to eliminate their ability to have that advantage, but it's all BS. Or maybe put it this way, it's most of the time, probably, they still have an advantage. And how can it be fair to have that advantage against a woman who has been preparing and competing and preparing and competing and working her entire life? Getting up at the wee hours, going back to college early and spending their summers training to go get slaughtered by a guy who came you know, Russell got skewered for she. I guess her post was, what do you believe? I just can't be quiet on this. I've spent my life playing sports, starting and coaching sports programs for girls, and apparently it ignites this firestorm. And then she was told by Oberlin, unfortunately, you fall into a category of people that are filled with hate in the world, and it's unacceptable to have your own opinions, or it's acceptable to have your own opinions, but when they go against your college's beliefs, it's a problem for your employment, which sort of rings in all sorts of other discussions that we can have about this. But it's acceptable to have your own beliefs unless you disagree. Correct. Sort of what it is, right? If you don't agree, it's not acceptable. So hats off to her, because I can't imagine it was easy.
Brett Johnson [:She's the first coach to speak out. Correct?
Steve Palmer [:At least the first one.
Brett Johnson [:Always the first coach gets skewered, and hopefully she opens the door for a lot of her coaches, male and female, to start speaking out about this. They talk. Of course she knows she's got support. She just had to be the first one.
Steve Palmer [:You can't tell me that when you're the coach of a female athletic program or team, that when you look across the court, you look across the swimming pool, you look across the field, and there's somebody who's like six foot four with the musculature of a man, and you're thinking to yourself, this is bullshit.
Brett Johnson [:My young ladies have no chance today.
Steve Palmer [:And if you're the parent sitting on the sidelines, you're thinking, this is bullshit. And if you're not allowed to say that out loud just because of the theatrical ideology, to go back, to use my own term, I've coined today, it's like she had the courage to come forward and finally say, enough's, enough's, enough, and we're not going to do it anymore. And Riley Gaines sort of, I think, was like, you, you know, she was one of the first to is this is not okay.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. And when it's a coach saying it versus a player, when a player says it, it kind of goes, me, I can't compete against them or a coach. That's a different level of looking at it as the sport holistically and a coach at Oberlin.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, this is like you couldn't have picked a more controversial place to take this, really. And again, Ohio making it big again, and hopefully she's speaking some common sense. Normally, I'd reach out to her, see if we can get her on the show.
Norm Murdock [:The first question I would ask her is, where in the hell is she as far as boys rights? Okay, so I love her position, but her position is in stark contrast to the general position of these women who have know rising up. I love Riley Gaines, but Riley Gaines and this coach need to also address men's rights. Men are institutionally and systemically prejudiced against and have fewer rights in college athletics than women. Let me explain.
Steve Palmer [:Please do.
Norm Murdock [:None of these women gave two S's and an F about boys not having an opportunity to get scholarship in lacrosse or swimming or rowing or track and field or any number of other sports. The only sports boys basically can get a scholarship for in America, basically. Now, there are some exceptions, this or that other program, but basically in universities, it's football or basketball. Why? Because they fill up those positions. Like at Ohio State, the football program pays for all the rest of the sports. At Ohio State, that program finances all the women's. The badminton team, the bowling team, the tiddlywinks team, the rowing team, all the girls basketball team. All of that stuff is funded from Ohio State football. Now, women can go out for the football team. There is no law. There is nothing stopping other than genetics. There is nothing stopping women from going out for the men's basketball team or men's football team. There is no hope prohibition whatsoever. But yet boys do not have any of these other opportunities.
Steve Palmer [:Hold on a second. First of all, let's clarify. So Oberlin's not a scholarship program. I know you're not, but I'm not talking about that.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:So you've made it a bigger, broader thing.
Norm Murdock [:And that's right.
Steve Palmer [:I think if we went back to.
Norm Murdock [:The because they're talking title Nine and I'm talking Title Nine. So the people that keep referencing this progress women have made it's due to title Nine. Title Nine Disenfranchised Men. Okay. And nobody wants to talk about that.
Steve Palmer [:No, I'm with you. In fact, if we go back and I think you might have been, I don't know what your position or what I can't remember where the lines were drawn. We had a drag out fight here at the roundtable one day about title Nine and what should be required and what shouldn't be required. But look, and I'm not taking a position on title nine one way or another. I am taking a position. I am simply saying these women fought to have their place in collegiate sports. Now it is being directly threatened by men. I mean, it couldn't be more insane to me that when you take a step back and look at it, it's like if you want your own space, if women want their own space and rights in the world, as they should have, then how is it not directly contrary to that to say, men can now be women and take that space too.
Norm Murdock [:Okay, so let me flip this. Let me flip it for an intellectual exercise, even though I don't think Leah Thomas should in any way compete against biological women. I don't think that. But let me flip the logic, okay? So if you're a male swimmer, say, in high school and you won state you're one of the top swimming athletes in the whole country, but you're a boy, okay? And you say to yourself, shit, I should get a scholarship for this. Like the girls over here on the other side of the buoys swimming their swim meet, 40 or 50 of the girls are going to go ahead and get a scholarship. Zero boys will get a scholarship. They're doing the same sport in high school. Well, if society comes along and says, listen, if you roll out of bed in the morning and you still have a girlfriend, you still have a boy's haircut, you still smell like a boy, walk like a know everything but you can Roll Out Of bed and say, you know, today I'm A woman, and Go get One Of Those scholarships at UCLA Or someplace. Is that so mean? Think about a boy who's going to have to pay for four years of college education, but yet if he just says he's a girl in presto changeo, he suddenly gets the same rights as the girls that he doesn't get because he's a boy. Okay, nobody wants to talk about that, right? Nobody wants to address the inequity between a similarly situated boy versus a girl.
Steve Palmer [:So your position let me see how I can frame this, because I think you've taken this to a place that's right, that we didn't start. What you're saying is there are more scholarships available for women than there are men in collegiate sports.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, my God.
Steve Palmer [:All right, yes. Look, I'm not taking any issue with that. In fact, I have no issue with that. I can't disagree with you is what I'm saying. But you start with the premise there are more scholarships for women than men. Now you're saying that you should create some equity there, or these people who are speaking out against competing against men should somehow speak out against this also. And I don't know if I agree with that. Look, I can't disagree with you.
Norm Murdock [:I still love you.
Steve Palmer [:I can't disagree with your point. But look, I think both things can happen at the same time. You could have this complete unfairness on the playing fields with men or with women competing against men.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:And you can have also unfairness in how many scholarships are delivered. My position would be or my concern would be, if you are going to engineer some way to fix that, it would be impossible. What you've done is now you're cramming down from the government some sort of equitable.
Norm Murdock [:We've already done that. Title nine was cramming down.
Steve Palmer [:I agree. This is the debate we had. I don't think Title Nine is all it's cracked up to be for all sorts of reasons, but it's also got some value for other reasons.
Norm Murdock [:But when you say women fought for the right for equality no, title Nine gives them superiority. It's not equality.
Steve Palmer [:Fair enough. My point was not to make an argument in favor of Title Nine. It is that these women who championed that cause back in the day have stayed silent in the face of this onslaught of men joining their ranks. And that's what seems so ironic to me, is that you have these sort of women that were at the cutting edge of this, saying, we want our own funding or we want this or we want fairness, we want all this. Not to say it was fair when it finally happened. I can't disagree with you, dude. All I'm saying is their irony is these women now are silent when that is in direct attack. Right. They are facing what I would consider an existential threat to women's athletics, when men can go compete against women just to get the medals and go win. And they can say that, oh, it's also about money. Well, sure.
Brett Johnson [:In your thought process, about the scholarship I never even thought about that.
Norm Murdock [:Nobody thinks about it unless you're the father of boys who are denied athletic.
Steve Palmer [:We used to make right. So my grandmother was a Cherokee, so I'm going to check Native American on my application and therefore I'll get a scholarship. Right. So you never lived that way, you never cared that way, but now all of a sudden there's a financial incentive to go take it over. So now I'm going to say, well, look, my great grandmother was Native American, so whatever, one percentage of that. So now I want the money. What you're saying is now there's a reason beyond, I think, Norm, what you're saying is there's a reason beyond transgenderism that somebody might want to go compete in women's sports and that's a financial incentive.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So Riley Gaines, this coach, I deeply respect them. I think they're brave. I think they're taking on an important issue and I stand with them 100%. What I'm saying is they have blinders on to a huge inequity in the very same sports at the very same schools for the other gender.
Steve Palmer [:Well, this is the classic.
Norm Murdock [:This is like wake up, people.
Steve Palmer [:Who's the soccer star that missed the kick at the end of the final?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Rapino.
Steve Palmer [:Rapino.
Norm Murdock [:She's an idiot.
Steve Palmer [:And so she's saying, we deserve all this. We deserve the same amount of money. We deserve, we deserve, we deserve, we deserve. And that sort of flies in the face of the fact that nobody well, she's pro tranny. She's pro of course, now she's in favor of both.
Norm Murdock [:She's in favor she would welcome a male on that women's soccer until she.
Steve Palmer [:Watches from the sidelines. Right.
Brett Johnson [:Until she's not starting. Exactly.
Norm Murdock [:Now that she's retiring, it's back to.
Steve Palmer [:The theatrical ideology until it's in your own backyard.
Norm Murdock [:There you go.
Steve Palmer [:You're all in favor of it. She's at the end of her career. She's already done everything. If she had no chance to do it, she might feel totally differently about it. But my point is that from a financial perspective, they don't deserve as much money as the men's soccer program unless they make as much money as the men's soccer program.
Brett Johnson [:And actually, I thought I read some follow up to that, too, that percentage wise, based on the money flowing in and out, they're making more than men do statistically.
Steve Palmer [:Statistically.
Brett Johnson [:That doesn't mean they're taking more of.
Steve Palmer [:The bank as a prorated share.
Brett Johnson [:As a prorated share, they are.
Steve Palmer [:Men are subsidizing it, I would guess college sports. They do probably men's football and men's basketball and the big program, they fund.
Norm Murdock [:The whole yeah, for sure, they fund the whole thing. And when they can't fund the whole thing, programs like Xavier University that had men's football that could not then turn around and create programs off of the income because it was a small team, they cancel men's football. That's what's happened at a lot of small schools, is when Title IX came along, those schools said, well, this is the problem. We're canceling the men's sports, and now it's equal.
Steve Palmer [:This is the problem. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Nobody has sports. Right?
Steve Palmer [:This is the problem. The more the government tinkers, the worse it gets. So this is my analogy is always the same. Anybody who's ever tried to make a square frame with 45 degree miters and it's not quite tight, you can't fix one. Once you tweak one, it throws off everything else, and then you got to start tweaking everything, and eventually it just becomes impossible, and you got to start over. So if they think that they can cram down regulation to fix it, they can't. It'll be a disaster. So the more the government gets involved, the more it gets screwed up. And then the Thomas Soul standard is it's never that the policy was bad. It's that they weren't allowed to do know. It's always like, we should have to do more. And then the people who get elected and cram this crap down, they're the ones that move on to their next position in two to four years, and they never get blamed for it. It's their predecessor or their successor that gets blamed for it. So anyway, we've beat the horse, right?
Norm Murdock [:Well, when people try to claim that they're civil rights advocates, okay, you need to take the blinders off. You need to see what happens in a co ed high school situation where you go to the banquet, the end of the year banquet, and they read off the scholarship winners. Who's going to Yale, who's going to Princeton, who's going to the University of Cincinnati, who's going to Wright State, whatever it is, okay? And they read off the list, and you have the boys who maybe finish second or third in the whole nation. They're sitting there, they don't read a single male name. They read 50 girls names. And some of the girls just joined the team six months ago to be.
Brett Johnson [:For that fact, to get a scholarship. I don't blame them necessarily, if the.
Norm Murdock [:Money is there and all the people sit there and they're very quiet and nobody says anything about the systemic sexism in college sports.
Steve Palmer [:All right, well, let me except me.
Norm Murdock [:Except Norm, because I love everybody. Boys and girls. I love them.
Brett Johnson [:Well, not just girls. Our thought of bringing Kim on, that would be a really good topic to talk about, see what she thinks.
Steve Palmer [:It'd be great, really, seriously, is that you can't have equality across the board or equity across the board. It's impossible. And the more you try to cram down that yoke on people, the worse it gets, because at the end of the day, the market still is undergirding all of it. You still have to have some income and revenue to get the results you want. And if people aren't going to watch women's sports and they're not making any money, somebody's got to pay for it. And fair enough, if you want to have a college that wants women's sports, I'm in favor of that. I think there's a value, even though the cost, even though its revenue doesn't support it. I think there's a value in having competition for men and women in college athletics. I think that is valuable. Who was it Norman said that World War I was won on the playing fields of Acton? Or was it I forget. But anyway, there's a value to that, but at least acknowledge it. And I think Norm's point is at least acknowledge here that there's more women getting scholarships than men. Now, if you said that at Oberlin, you would get absolutely skewered as well. So we'll see now all that there.
Norm Murdock [:Are a bunch of pussies up there. I don't care.
Steve Palmer [:Skewer don't. We're here just to have fun.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. No, I'm talking about the Oberlin people.
Steve Palmer [:I know, but if they want to.
Norm Murdock [:Throw javelins at me, I'm throwing them back.
Steve Palmer [:Norm, I don't think they will. I don't think that you exist.
Norm Murdock [:Most of them couldn't pick up a javelin.
Steve Palmer [:One more comment, and then I think we'll just bring it back to something a little bit more or less controversial, whatever it is. Hats off to all those Division Three collegiate athletes who do not have scholarships, who show up early, who go to practice, who wake up in the morning, who go to their treatment after injury and they get nothing for it other than the value of competition in college athletics.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:That I used to argue with people all the time is real football. And I only say football because that's what I played. But it's like when you do that, when you go to a Saturday afternoon at sometime around twelve noon at any small Division Three athletics program, and you see like, the stands are small and usually full with parents and everybody else, and you know that those kids are not getting paid to be there. They don't get T shirt endorsements, they don't get any of the latest and greatest that the D One athletes get. They are doing it for the good of it and hats off.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, it's like the men and women.
Steve Palmer [:Norm men and women.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Debbie three.
Norm Murdock [:You're right. Well, yeah. Aren't they equal?
Steve Palmer [:No, they're not equal. They're different.
Norm Murdock [:They have equal rights. They should clearly what I'm referring to, right? The other good example are the military academies, those naval midshipmen that showed up to get slaughtered by Notre Dame. Right. They're like your Division Three guys, Steve. They're there going to a military academy, they're not getting any extra anything for playing football. And hats off to, like you say, people who play sports for the love of the game.
Steve Palmer [:And look, I'm not faulting d one athletes. Look, if I could have gone D One and played D One sports, I would have done it. But I didn't find it unfair that I couldn't, I didn't wake up, look in the mirror and say, this is a bunch of nonsense.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [: not six foot four and have a: Norm Murdock [:Yeah, it is.
Steve Palmer [:So I had other advantages than they had, and they had advantages I didn't. So be it.
Norm Murdock [:Speaking of football, we have the Battle of Ohio coming up this weekend, the big why? The Cleveland Browns.
Steve Palmer [:You're talking about? Youngstown state versus on.
Norm Murdock [:Come on, come on. Wow, that's a junior varsity game against exactly. The New York Jets or something.
Brett Johnson [:Totally a money game.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, right. So God bless Ohio State having to share the revenue halvesies, I guess, with Youngstown. I would just love it if Jim Tressel walked out of his university president's office and went to the sideline and coached Youngstown for the game. That would be great. But at any rate, the Battle of Ohio Browns versus the Bengals being played in Cleveland on the heels of, I guess yesterday, Joe Burrow concluding the most lucrative contract I believe in NFL history, at $55 million a year. 219,000,000 of the $275,000,000 deal is guaranteed money. So if he gets injured, man, they're writing that check no matter what. And this is the frugal Bengals. God, the people who wouldn't spend a nickel. I mean, all of a sudden, they've gone full Steinbrenner, and they're spending just massive amounts. So great for Joe Burrow. Good, good boy. Hope you have a good year this year. And they're playing I can't think of the name of that quarterback, the one who got into trouble with the massage parlors up there in Document.
Steve Palmer [:Netflix has something on.
Brett Johnson [:What does Netflix have?
Norm Murdock [:Is it Walker? I forget.
Steve Palmer [:Baker?
Norm Murdock [:Is it no, he's long gone. No, I forget. Yeah, Baker plays for God. Florida. Anyway. North Carolina team. No, it's Sean Jackson.
Steve Palmer [: back to I just looked up the: Norm Murdock [:Pro Football Hall of Fame in Ohio.
Steve Palmer [:It's in Ohio. Can, Ohio.
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Ohio makes it big again. And there's lots of common sense happening right here. Maybe not everywhere in Ohio.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. OJ's still in the hall, but Pete's not in the baseball.
Steve Palmer [:There we go.
Brett Johnson [:You got Pete on the reverse side.
Norm Murdock [:Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:If he were in Ohio, would they have let him in? Or if the hall of fame weren't Ohio, the baseball hall of fame were not Cooperstown, but rather, say, Columbus.
Brett Johnson [:That's a posthumous award. Once he passes away, I'll let him. So terrible.
Norm Murdock [:You guys want to talk about a little bit about that very strange case up there in Blenden Township where a pregnant 21 year old African American mom was shot by a police officer? I guess the two Blenden Township police were in a parking lot in front of Kroger's there on Sunbury Road, and they are assisting a motorist. I don't know with what. Maybe a locked car. I don't know. So they're in a parking lot. Out comes some Kroger employees. So the story goes, according to the dispatch, employees of the Kroger run out to the parking lot and go, Officer, officer, there's a gang of people. One of these crowd deals that I guess they do on the know people have seen that on TV where a group of people go in and shoplift. Well, it's happening here at Kroger. They're running out with steaks and turkeys and, I don't know, brooms and whatever Kroger sells and do something. Please help us. Whatever. So all the other shoplifters, alleged shoplifters leave the scene successfully abscond, except this 21 year old female who's in a car by herself so hold on a second.
Steve Palmer [:I missed some of this. Maybe I daydream or maybe I was daydreaming or maybe I just missed it. So these were looters or like a shoplifting, alleged group, an organized shoplifting.
Norm Murdock [:That's right. Yes, that's the allegation. And the police happened to be on the scene helping somebody else. So their response was instantaneous. They literally walked across the parking lot. They cornered. She is in the car, cars running. She refuses an order to get out. So she has been designated by the employees of Kroger. Yeah, that's one of the people that was stealing the police. One gets in front of her right at her bumper, front bumper. The other gets on the side and there's body cam footage. You can go to the internet and watch it and the blenden. Township police officers order her to get out of the expletive deleted car. She refuses and you can hear her yell back, what are you going to do, shoot me? She then accelerates up against makes body contact with her car on the police officer who's standing in front of her with the gun drawn aimed at her windshield. She pushes against him with her car and he fires one shot, kills her. She's 21 years old. She has a six year old. So you can do the math. This is a baby having a baby. She was 15 when she had that first baby. She was raised by her grandmother. This is all coming out because naturally the family has hired counsel and she has a two year old.
Steve Palmer [:So she has this is tragic on every level.
Norm Murdock [:That's tragic on every level.
Brett Johnson [:Was she part of the gang looting or she just wrong place, wrong time?
Norm Murdock [:I don't want to play fact.
Brett Johnson [:Oh, I didn't know if it came out.
Norm Murdock [:I'm reporting got you other people.
Steve Palmer [:We don't know for sure whether she was part of the looting gang. And let's say she is for a.
Brett Johnson [:Second I was going to say take two scenarios here.
Steve Palmer [:So scenario one, she was part of it. Or maybe a better way to look at it is there was a reasonable suspicion to believe that she was part of it. That's a reasonable suspicion is a term of art, meaning that you have some understanding or some reasonable notion that there's criminal activity afoot. Go try to define that in the US supreme Court and you'll go down a rabbit hole for know. So they think all the first the first question is what does it take for a police officer to implement a police stop of a motor vehicle? It takes reasonable suspicion. They have to have some notion that there's a criminal activity afoot in the context of a typical traffic violation. It's speeding or bad turn or no signal, whatever it would be. So they can make that stop. But here there's not a traffic violation. They think that she is involved in some other criminal activity. The first question will be, did they have a right to stop her car, to tell her to stop? Because when the police say stop, that's a police stop motor vehicle. It's a significant intrusion which requires justification under the Fourth Amendment. Look up Delaware versus Prowse, and you can read all about it. Then the question is, do they have a right to tell to stop and get out of the car? That's called a mims order. Pennsylvania versus Mims. Another US. Supreme Court case. And anybody like you see these idiots on YouTube saying, don't get out of your car, crack your window, don't talk to the police. It's all bad advice because the police, like it or not, the US Supreme Court has said they can order you out of your car. They can even order out a passenger of your car, and you have to comply. Now, does that result in some bad police work at times? Absolutely it does, but that's the fact. So here we have a police officer, I think it was a Westerville cop, trying to tell this woman not to leave, stop. And then she almost like tauntingly says, what are you going to do, shoot me? And this is a problem that I think is spawned by all sorts of causes, not the least of which is this educational crap that everybody's got a steady diet of through the media, that police are all bad. You don't have to listen to the police. They're all racist. They're all this, they're all that. Had she have stopped and gotten out of the car, nothing would have happened. So that doesn't mean the shooting is good, but that's also something we have to analyze. Then the question is, when she doesn't stop and she starts to move forward in her car, does this officer have the right to pull the trigger and shoot her? And that's a hard question. On the one hand he's going to say, well, I was fearful for my life because I was going to get run over. And maybe that's true. On the other hand, you could say, well, you could have just sidestepped this and not gotten run over. And then he's going to say, well, then I've got a fugitive and I've got to go run and chase down a fugitive. And others are going to say, well, so what? And the police are going to say, well, because a high speed chase like that or any sort of fugitive chase puts everybody else in danger and goes on and on and on, on. And there's not going to be any speculation both ways. It's all going to be one way or another. Now, here at Common Sense Ohio, we're going to look at it both ways. I don't think this is necessarily a clean shooting. I don't think it's necessarily a bad shooting. It's a very tragic shooting. And you would say there's all sorts of ways this could have been avoided, not the least of which is if she's involved in the theft, don't be a thief. If she actually said, what are you going to do, shoot me? And starts to roll forward to this cop. It's sort of like Norm. I saw a parallel scenario where I forget where it was. It wasn't Ohio, but these protesters were sort of laid out in front of trucks on the highway protesting green stuff, whatever it be.
Norm Murdock [:I saw that. And it's know at some point it was reservation cops. In that case, I believe, yeah, at.
Steve Palmer [:Some point you're going to get run over.
Norm Murdock [:These were people trying to get to Burning Man, I think. In fact, if you're talking about the incident this week.
Steve Palmer [:I think it was an environmental protest of some sort. It was okay, maybe it was, but.
Norm Murdock [:If I understand it right, the motorists were trying to get to that festival that got rained out anyway, but what a disaster.
Steve Palmer [:Kevin Hart thumbing to get out of there. It's awesome.
Norm Murdock [:But these were, if I understand it, these were, I believe, not that it matters, but I believe they were sheriffs or deputies from whatever, Pima Indian or Navajo, but they were on tribal land, I believe, and I think it was that.
Steve Palmer [:I think you're right, sort of police.
Norm Murdock [:Officer not that that changes anything, but.
Steve Palmer [:Look, if you do stuff like that, there's going to be a human response to it. And I don't think she was, like, threatening this. She wasn't saying, I'm going to kill you, police officer, but she was saying, I'm not going to comply. And I'm willing to push this further by bumping into you with my car just to tell you I'm not going to comply. Now the cop is probably not going to be able to honestly say to himself in the mirror, I thought she was going to kill me, because he could have just jumped out of the way, I'm sure, and let her go. Now, I'm not saying that was his move, but it makes the problem more complicated. It's not like he was pulling the trigger in self defense because he could have gotten away. So now the question is, will the shooting be justified, given the fact that she was told to stop, she was not complying. She was willing to at least gesture that she would run over the guy if he didn't get out of the way.
Norm Murdock [:Terrible. So she was pregnant. Her baby was due in November, and.
Steve Palmer [:The baby died too, right?
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:This is awful.
Brett Johnson [:Well, and then, sadly, all of that stuff you just talked about, you took five minutes. Whatever it might be, the cop has to go through in 2 seconds to think about this. Think about, thinking about and he's human.
Steve Palmer [:He's got an AI computer that can make all the decisions, like a TV cop.
Brett Johnson [:So now the fallback, the fallout on this is more training. More training. More training. Do you think from your experience is training. Yeah, I think training necessary. Training should be better.
Steve Palmer [:I don't know that this is a training problem, okay?
Norm Murdock [:I don't know. Who knows?
Steve Palmer [:Look, the more training and experience you have, the better. Police officer. Of course, we can all agree with that. Of course. So now we could say now we should ask the more training and experience you have, would that have prevented this? And the answer is maybe.
Brett Johnson [:But how many scenarios can you play.
Norm Murdock [:Through to know the entire Columbus area gathered around the two Westerville cops who were killed responding to a domestic request? Morelli and that was pre? Floyd yeah. Morelli and I can't think of the name of the other officer. Forgive me for that. I should know his name. It's terrible. But the two officers went to the door, guns not drawn, just walked up there. They want to peaceably, try to resolve whatever's going on. They had been called to that address before. The guy answers the door, kills both of them. Boom, boom. Like, no discussion, just boom, boom. Right. And then next door here's, Blenden Township, which is adjacent to Westerville. And you got a car, which can be a deadly weapon.
Steve Palmer [:These were blended, not Westville cops.
Norm Murdock [:They were blended. Blended township.
Steve Palmer [:So a car to your point, Norm, I've defended many a case where the disgruntled boyfriend or disgruntled girlfriend, they try to run down, they're in a fight, and then one gets out and they're chasing them down.
Brett Johnson [:It's a freaking lethal weapon.
Steve Palmer [:It's charged as a felonious assault because the car is a deadly weapon, so it can be a deadly weapon. And the issue here is Charlotesville, right?
Norm Murdock [:The guy from Columbus who plowed through protesters, same thing.
Steve Palmer [:So you get this spot where there's multiple things at play here. I think you have, like, now, years of hands up, don't shoot type of indoctrination that have sort of educated people that any police interaction is unfair and unwarranted.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:All right, so you're only doing this because I'm black? Are you only doing this because you're a cop? Are you only doing this because you got too much power and you're corrupt?
Norm Murdock [:Or she's probably this is where the cultural sickness comes in. She is probably aware, like most Americans, that sub $1,000, right? Like in La. Portland, San Francisco, a lot of other New York City. Maybe she's aware that you can do shoplifting, right?
Steve Palmer [:I don't know of that necessarily, but I think our implication is I should be allowed to do this because life is unfair. That's really the underlying message. Life is unfair. These people have too much. I can take it anyway. And I think we all, as humans, have fought that way on some level. That guy's loaded. He can afford it. Or that guy's, this all right, so they can afford it. They sell all this stuff. So if I get one extra item in the checkout that I didn't pay for I can justify that, and we have to go through our own moral dilemma to work through that. But I think it's gone beyond that now, and it's like they think that it's unfair. Life is unfair completely, and cops are always bad, and we don't have to listen to cops. And why would they think that? Well, because that's what they've been told. We went through two and a half years of this crap. That's what they were told.
Norm Murdock [:But our culture is aware of incidents like the Home Depot lady who got fired for trying to foil a shoplifter, the Bodega employee in New York City, remember, he stabbed his assailant who came in with a gun. He stabbed his assailant to defend himself. And Fat Alvin out there was going to prosecute this guy for defending his life. It turns out he dropped the charges. But the concept now, I think is starting to get burned into the general culture that shoplifting isn't serious, that if it's under $1,000, basically the employees at Target or at these stores are basically being told, hey, it's just stuff. Let it be stolen.
Steve Palmer [:Do not intercede and listen.
Norm Murdock [:And so she's probably thinking, hey, we could steal a turkey and some steaks and really they're not going to come after it.
Steve Palmer [: on, if you don't come back at: Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:Becomes sort of like, that's right ingrained. I don't think it's it's not like a specific this to that. Well, it becomes your normal pattern of.
Norm Murdock [:Behavior, except we've added that extra dynamic to it, and now it's a permission slip.
Steve Palmer [:Did you see this story out of Minnesota? So there was a Democratic official who was leading the charge, or who was at least part of the charge for dismantling the police at the height of the Black Lives Matter movement. She was attacked in her own little neighborhood with her kids watching and was brutally beaten. I mean, I read about this beating, and it. Was bad, and now she went on to demand consequences. It's like now we need to get the illegal guns off the street, catch these young people who are ruining or who are running wild, creating chaos across our city. The point here is that, as we've said 100 times, there's more than one cause for these problems. And it's not just that there's bad police. It's like some police are bad for sure, but there's still crime, and we still need police to go combat crime. We can't let this crap run amok. And when you do, you get what you reap what you sow. And some of this is tragically, I think what we're really saying in this Kroger incident, tragically. You can trace it back to that to some extent. You can say this woman has been taught somehow, some way, or she understands somehow, some way that she doesn't have to listen to a police. Yeah, I'm not blaming her for getting shot, but I'm saying she thought she didn't have to comply with that and it wasn't fair to even be asked to stop to the point where she threw up her middle finger and said, what are you going to do about it? Shoot me? And it's not poetic justice that she got shot. I'm not saying no.
Norm Murdock [:I'm sure the police officer involved, he's ruined for life. Exactly. Got to live with life, right? He may go to prison.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah, exactly. And I mean, there's even one more extreme to this scenario, is that she may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, had nothing to Kroger. People poked her, but complete accident. But she still to your point. The culture of screw you, I was just sitting here. I'm not going to do this if you know so even to that extreme, she may have been completely innocent, but she lost her life because of the culture that's being developed around.
Steve Palmer [:That racist. You're bad. You're this.
Norm Murdock [:I don't even know if it was a white cop.
Brett Johnson [:I have no idea.
Steve Palmer [:It's happening both ways.
Norm Murdock [:Of course. Many well known black public figures have been called white supremacists anymore. I can't even keep it straight. I think the takeaway that I have from this is what I've told my children who are grown adults now. This lady was 21 years old. She's not a kid anymore. No, she's had two children pregnant with a third one. You would think somewhere somebody would have said, for God's sakes, if a guy's got a holster on his belt and he's got his gun drawn, do what the hell he tells you to do.
Steve Palmer [:And then if he's a police, sort it out later.
Norm Murdock [:Sort it out later.
Steve Palmer [:Here's what people forget.
Norm Murdock [:Good God.
Steve Palmer [:Even if you have a bad actor cop, it doesn't mean that all the review of it later is going to be against you. There is some recourse.
Norm Murdock [:Thank you.
Steve Palmer [:And it's not always perfect. In fact, it's probably mostly imperfect, but at least is more perfect than getting shot.
Norm Murdock [:Oh my God.
Steve Palmer [:It's like, come on. And I'm not saying the cop did right. I'm not saying he did wrong. I'm saying it's tragic and it sucks.
Norm Murdock [:A young lady's name I don't think I've said it's takaya Young.
Steve Palmer [:I'm praying for her and her family.
Norm Murdock [:God bless her soul.
Steve Palmer [:This is awful.
Norm Murdock [:Terrible.
Steve Palmer [:And then Shivanthi Sathanna Dan is the vice chairwoman of the Minnesota Democratic Farmer Party who got attacked up in Minnesota anyway, just for the record. Well, normally got probably time for a couple of nuggets.
Norm Murdock [:And we know, if you will, I think we can leverage because you talked about some sort of social learning here vis a vis interactions with the police. And I think there is a little bit of an analogy to be had with the misbehavior, the very wrong storming of the Capitol by a small number of people on January 6 that leading up to that terrible day. Where people misguided or criminally intended people. Very small number, in my opinion, actually wanted to stop the legislative process. And then the rest were just followers. But where did they get the idea that you could storm a public building and interrupt things and break down fences and bust through doors? Well, they saw that entire pattern of misbehavior happening on the other side of the political spectrum. And I believe they thought, well, to if BLM and Antifa can burn down cities, burn down courthouses, burn down police stations in city after city after city and occupy whole city squares, well, why can't the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boy guys, right? You can imagine the twisted mentality that some of them would have looking at illegality that is not prosecuted on this side and them saying, well, hell, we can do it, too, I guess.
Steve Palmer [:Well, I don't think it was a matter of we'll get away with it because they prosecuted. I think it was a matter of we need to do something because everything has gone so far that it's just that right is wrong, wrong is right, and everything's upside down. We live in this bizarro world not to justify going in and not to.
Norm Murdock [:Justify, but on the other but to explain it.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. And I think those who will not at least acknowledge that that was fueled by a year and a half or two years of COVID Black Lives Matter.
Norm Murdock [:Craziness that's right.
Steve Palmer [:Then you are intentionally misleading yourself and others as to the cause. This was a culmination of two years of crap.
Brett Johnson [:We had it at the state house here in Ohio.
Steve Palmer [:Yep.
Brett Johnson [:People coming up to the window and.
Steve Palmer [:Just shut down, people coming in, police, federal buildings being invaded, all this crap, and nobody doing it about it. Not only that the media saying that it was okay or it wasn't happening. And even if it is happening, it is okay.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And it doesn't justify the reaction, but it explains it. That's right.
Norm Murdock [:That's all I'm saying. Right.
Brett Johnson [:I agree.
Steve Palmer [:Or at least in part explains it.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:And to not analyze it completely is yet another political whitewashing of what really was going on.
Norm Murdock [: trials. In total, around: Steve Palmer [:It'll be interesting to see how that gets shaken up in the US supreme or as it goes up the appellate ladder. But there's been no acquittals of any of those cases. I've done some consulting work on those cases. I've done some research on the jury panel for those types of cases, and good luck. You're not going to win.
Brett Johnson [:Are most of those charges just trespassing? No, he was convicted for I meant of the 600.
Norm Murdock [:It's a variety oh, I got you. He was convicted, amongst other things, of a thing called seditious conspiracy, which sounds like shit to me.
Steve Palmer [:That's like Cold War stuff.
Norm Murdock [:But anyway, that's Woodrow Wilson, world War I. Yeah, you might be right.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:That's really bizarre stuff.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Most of those cases are going to be just trespasses misdemeanors, which is yesterday.
Norm Murdock [:Or it's still a record, but just yesterday or the day before, a 30 no, 26 year old Grove City guy, Benjamin Shuler, who's already in prison for vehicular homicide, was dragged to Cincinnati and arraigned for assaulting a police officer on January 6. That's what I mean. It's a variety of things.
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Brett Johnson [:No, sure.
Steve Palmer [:All right. Well, with that, we probably ought to wrap it up. I know it's been another riveting dose of common sense, and you would love to sit here and listen to us Babylon some more with more common sense, more and more and more. Well, guess what? You can come next week and check us out because we'll be here each and every week going forward. If you want to check out our show, the old shows, all the old debates, all the old fun, go to Commonsenseoioshow.com. That's a website, commonsenseoioshow.com, where you can check out all the old archive shows. You can subscribe, you can like, you can share, and that's what we encourage you to do. So it helps us when not only you listen, but you download and you tell others to listen to download, and it's catchy. It's starting to happen. I'm getting feedback from sources around Ohio and a country that I would never expect. It's not like my friend of a friend. It's like somebody I never even had zero connection with said, oh, yeah, I know that guy. They have a good show, common Sense Ohio. So jump on a bandwagon, folks. Share it. Get others on the bandwagon. The idea of what we're doing, and I do mean this without jest. What we're trying to do here is provide legitimate, common sense commentary on these issues. We're not saying we're right. I'm not saying we're always right. I'm not saying we're always wrong. What we're trying to do is just talk it out. You hear me think out loud all the time. That means that some of my thoughts are sometimes flawed. It means that sometimes Norma's right. That's very rare. But sometimes just kidding. Sometimes Norma's right and I'm wrong. Sometimes I'm wrong. Norma's right. Sometimes none of us are just trying to figure it out.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah, trying to figure it mean it's a mistake. It's a terrible character flaw for anybody to cling to their rightness. Self righteousness have an open mind. Every position I have is open to revision, to revise and extend. If you have a better argument, bring it.
Steve Palmer [:Bring it.
Norm Murdock [:Otherwise, Operlyn, I'm throwing the frickin'javelin right back at your ass. Right?
Steve Palmer [:Right. So remember, go read C. S. Lewis's discussions about pride. You can check your pride at the door here, because you have a right to be wrong, and it's not wrong that's right to be right. So anyway, common senseohioshow.com coming at you right from the middle each and every week, at least until now.
Norm Murdock [:Yee haw.
