In this episode, we deep-dive into the dynamic theme of Integrated Training and how this innovative approach is revolutionizing the way security professionals operate. Discover why mastering both the digital battleground and the physical frontline is no longer a luxury, but a critical necessity.

Phelim and Shaun are pleased to welcome Lee McWhorter, CTO and Director of Cybersecurity at Covered Six, and Kevin Lewis, Director of Training also at Covered Six as we take a journey through the cutting-edge intersection of cyber and physical security.

Tune in to learn why Integrated Training isn’t just an option, but an absolute game-changer for anyone in the security field. In this epsiode we discuss:

• Overview of Integrated Training: The importance and impact of combining physical and cyber security training in the security industry.
• Two Pillars of Security: Exploring the interrelation and convergence of cybersecurity and physical security in integrated training.
• Cyber-Physical Threats: Examining scenarios where cyber and physical security threats intersect and their implications.
• Essential Knowledge for Security Professionals: The necessity of a basic understanding in both cyber and physical security for effective client protection.
• Importance of OSINT and Cyber Hygiene: The role of open-source intelligence and cybersecurity awareness in modern security practices.
• Challenges and Future Outlook: Discussing the complexities and future trends in integrated training within the security industry.

Our Guests:

Lee McWhorter

Kevin Lewis

Covered Six

More about the Circuit:

The Circuit Magazine is written and produced by volunteers, most of who are operationally active, working full time in the security industry. The magazine is a product of their combined passion and desire to give something back to the industry. By subscribing to the magazine you are helping to keep it going into the future. Find out more >

If you liked this podcast, we have an accompanying weekly newsletter called 'On the Circuit' where we take a deeper dive into the wider industry. Opt in here >

The Circuit team is:

• Jon Moss
• Shaun West
• Phelim Rowe
• Elijah Shaw

Connect with Us: 

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British Bodyguard Association

It's one of the problems with the training in the United States,

2

is it focuses on what I call the big

sexy driving, shooting, fighting,

3

you know, all that kind of stuff.

4

Welcome to the Circuit Magazine, the

number one source of information on

5

protection matters, the industry leading

magazine for all security professionals

6

who want to stay ahead of the game.

7

Phelim: Integrated EP training.

8

Today, Shaun West and myself are

delighted to be speaking with

9

Lee McWhorter and Kevin Lewis.

10

from Covered six out of

California and Texas.

11

Great to be talking about this topic,

but also great because Kevin has an

12

EP background, a physical security

background, a martial arts background,

13

and Lee has a quote unquote cyber,

but actually OSINT background.

14

Shaun, why is this an increasingly

important topic in terms of, you

15

know, the way EP trains today?

16

Shaun West: Thank you, traditional EPO.

17

Who completes their course, they get

the bare bones skills to go on and do

18

the job, get their license and operate.

19

But that can't be the

end of your learning.

20

You have to add more

tools to your toolbox.

21

And I think some of the things

you mentioned there are key.

22

I think OSINT is definitely

becoming more prevalent.

23

in the game at the moment because it

allows you to carry out your own due

24

diligence on your principles yourself,

see what's out there on yourself.

25

And also when you're prepping

for other tasks or visiting other

26

venues, there's lots of tools out

there that can aid you in that due

27

diligence and advance of that event or

28

Phelim: location.

29

And that's really key, isn't it?

30

Because I think maybe five, ten years

ago, when people thought cyber skills,

31

IT skills, they thought, oh no, I have

to learn how to code, and oh no, maybe

32

I need to spend time in a, in a SOC,

and, and work my way up as an analyst.

33

But actually, no, that's

not really what it's about.

34

It's about maintaining your EP discipline,

but knowing how to find information out.

35

Now, of course, there are limits.

36

Maybe you don't want to

go onto the dark web.

37

Um, and we would not recommend that,

uh, for our listeners, but there's

38

certainly a lot of OSINT, um, courses

out there, and, and, and maybe just, um,

39

having a little bit of cyber training

alongside enables you to know who and

40

why to call, or, or maybe what to harden.

41

I think they like to call it SAS

hardening, software as a service

42

hardening, which, you know, it could, it

could be as simple as the, the, the Zoom

43

platform, um, Did you make sure that your,

your attendees in, in a webinar could

44

not do absolutely anything they wanted?

45

Um, I mean, that's, that's security too.

46

Um, I, I think it doesn't have to be

this, uh, rather ominous, uh, coding,

47

uh, bootcamp type skills, does it, Shaun?

48

No, not

49

Lee McWhorter: at

50

Shaun West: all.

51

I think since I've started my

career, I like to do a lot of courses

52

that sort of broaden my knowledge

in a lot of different areas.

53

Whilst it gives me the knowledge,

I also like to have a good contact

54

book of specialists also because

things that become out of your remit

55

or knowledge, it's always better to

get a professional in to do that job.

56

But yeah, there's, I mean, there's

lots of information you can do

57

and tools you can add to yourself.

58

without becoming an expert where you

can still add a huge amount of value.

59

Phelim: Perfect.

60

Well, well, well, that's perhaps

where we need to dig into it.

61

And that's why it's great to have

someone that is a bona fide physical

62

security expert and a quote unquote

cyber security expert here today.

63

Um, so, so let's get into it.

64

Um, let's look at the, uh,

integrated training of the

65

future, uh, for the protector.

66

And, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm really,

really looking forward to

67

hearing from Lee and Kevin.

68

Kevin Lewis: And now let's meet one of

the contributors to the Circuit Magazine.

69

Phelim: Integrated Training

for Tomorrow's Protector.

70

I'm delighted to be speaking with Lee

McWhorter, CTO, Director of Cybersecurity

71

at Covered Six, and Kevin Lewis,

Director of Training also at Covered Six.

72

Loved to have you both on.

73

How are you doing?

74

Doing

75

Kevin Lewis: good.

76

Thanks for having us.

77

Yeah, thank you so much for having us.

78

We're happy to be here.

79

Phelim: And I'm really happy because

Both of you represent two sides of

80

the security environment that come

together for integrated training.

81

So often on the podcast, we do touch

on topics that are maybe cyber heavy or

82

maybe physical heavy, but coming together

in an integrated training, I think,

83

is what people have been asking for.

84

They said, yes, but what about me?

85

Right?

86

Me, the protector, I the

protector, how can I benefit?

87

So, with our three quickfire

questions, let's get into it.

88

What is the problem we're trying

to solve with a training such as

89

Lee McWhorter: yours?

90

Well, I think we're trying to solve, you

know, at least from my perspective, we

91

teach cameras and access controls and

lock the darn server room door and man

92

traps and piggybacking and all that.

93

And I know Kevin's side of the house

teaches a lot of tech and information

94

that will, you know, helps there.

95

Um, physical and EP protectors

have a balanced approach from the

96

other side of the house as well.

97

Kevin Lewis: Sure, Kevin can add.

98

Yeah, it's definitely, um, we're just

trying to make sure that we mitigate all

99

the risks and the current threat scape.

100

And as you know, the threat scape

is evolving very quickly right now.

101

So we're, we constantly have to up our

game in order to deal with all those

102

various threats that are coming from the

cyber side or, you know, the deep fake

103

side, the AI, all that fun stuff that's.

104

Currently happening, but then again,

address that to the physical, um, and

105

really just mitigate rest for the client.

106

That's what it's all about.

107

Okay,

108

Phelim: I like that.

109

And ultimately, the client probably

just doesn't care, they want it solved.

110

But let's take a step back.

111

What about your passion?

112

Where does your passion

for this come from?

113

Uh, Lee, and

114

Lee McWhorter: then maybe Kevin?

115

Well, you know, it's one of the things

when I was fortunate enough to be

116

referred and got to join this wonderful

group here at Covered Six, um, that I

117

really shared with our founder, Kristone.

118

Kevin and all the senior team,

is just a holistic approach.

119

I've always felt, even as a

guy who really focuses on the

120

cyber side, that you have to.

121

It's one of my mantras, lock

the damn server room door.

122

There's all these stories of people

who put up all the defenses and the

123

firewalls and the intrusion detection,

and somebody wants it bad enough, they

124

just drive a car through the front

window and steal all the hard drives.

125

And of course, you know, we want

to make sure that the other side

126

of the house is aware that a

drone flying over the building is

127

not just some kid's toy anymore.

128

That could be me landing a

hotspot to break into your office.

129

And so this kind of cross, you

know, we're always as strong as our

130

weakest link and it's usually people.

131

And so one of the biggest

things we got to do is train.

132

And if we can train in a more integrated

way, then I think that betters both sides

133

and then the whole holistic approach to

134

Kevin Lewis: security.

135

Yeah, so Leah and I have had many

conversations about this and it's

136

really about, you know, I was a

solo operator most of the time, so

137

I was constantly looking for ways

to leverage force multipliers of any

138

kind in order to help me provide for

my client, because, you know, it's,

139

There's not enough manpower, right?

140

But also, um, to be able to educate

myself enough so that I know what other

141

possible threats could be out there.

142

Because, uh, I jokingly always say

to Lee that I'm a walking EMP, right?

143

So, if I don't You know, I need to

know more about this side of the field

144

because I feel totally vulnerable there

because I don't have any understanding

145

until Lee came along and started

teaching me and then telling us, you

146

know, giving us opportunities to learn

from any everything from OSINT to just,

147

you know, good, good cyber awareness

and, and hygiene, you know, I mean,

148

that's just the basic entry level that

every agent needs to have, because you

149

could be setting things up that could

cause your client problems, right?

150

Okay.

151

Plus the clients are bringing us problems.

152

And again, every time I walk into

a new residence or with a new

153

client, I have to deal with a new I.

154

T.

155

team and they're not always, um.

156

forthcoming, right?

157

So I need to know enough that I can

ask the right questions from two

158

of them to make sure everything's

locked down for the client.

159

So it's more for my end, uh, for our,

our educational process, that the guys

160

really understand the risks and what

they can do to help mitigate them.

161

So, you

162

Lee McWhorter: know, going on with

what Kevin said about sometimes.

163

IT teams out there not being forthcoming.

164

We've, it's something we're trying to, I'm

trying to break down and have people, and

165

that's people I train and people out in

the community not do, but we kind of, you

166

know, keep the information to ourselves.

167

And, um, you know, that is something

that you do run into a lot of IT teams.

168

It's like they need to keep it for their

own secrecy, but we need to share it

169

so that we can all be on the same page.

170

Phelim: Okay.

171

So, so, so let me ask Kevin for the

third quickfire question, right?

172

Kevin.

173

What does the uninitiated

protector need to better understand

174

about integrated training?

175

Like, I can imagine them thinking,

Oh, well, am I going to learn to code?

176

Well, what should they

better understand, Kevin?

177

Kevin Lewis: Well, they should definitely

better understand the OSINT side.

178

And a lot of accounts now are asking

for, uh, agents that can actually

179

do OSINT scrubs on the client daily.

180

Um, so that's a key factor, but just

in general, what is good cyber hygiene,

181

uh, would be a base level, right?

182

And then what potential risks are out

there that the client's facing or that

183

the security, the cybersecurity team

is facing so that we can assist in

184

asking the right questions and also, uh,

pushing, uh, helping the client make the

185

proper decision making to like upgrade

the things that the cyber team needs.

186

You know, that would be like the

elemental things that I would say.

187

Phelim: Okay.

188

That makes sense.

189

And I like that because that's from

the perspective of the protector.

190

And quite often the protector

sees lots of flashy, fancy ideas.

191

And, and they think, well, I mean,

I'm not speaking for you, Oh,

192

protector out there in the audience,

but you might think which way.

193

Um, so let me, let me

put it to you this way.

194

We're talking integrated training.

195

And this isn't necessarily talking about

the single unified soldier, and we've had

196

that on the podcast before, um, and, and

I totally get it if you've come from the

197

military, J6 instead of A6, N6, and so on.

198

Uh, Lee, what then does

integrated training look like?

199

Is it as simple as, now I'm

doing something cyber related,

200

now I'm doing something physical

related, or, or is there something

201

more to integrated training?

202

Kevin Lewis: Um, so what it looks

like is, each, in each section of

203

our, our training, we're trying to

incorporate some aspect of technology,

204

and an understanding of technology.

205

So, um, OSINT, we actually,

like, Take them through the

206

process of why that's important.

207

Cause again, like you're saying, what's,

what's important is the why's, right?

208

Like what's, what's my, why, why

do I need to know this stuff?

209

The biggest thing is, is, you know,

the client vulnerability, right?

210

Is like, how, how can we fix that?

211

And there's millions of examples of

this where, you know, people are using

212

technology to actually stalk the client.

213

Right?

214

Make it there.

215

Um, a lot of the stalking now

happens, uh, electronically.

216

Got a number of cases like that where

I've been dealing with people that have

217

electronic stalking, and then you gotta

go back and figure out who this guy is,

218

or you gotta pay somebody to do that.

219

It's kind of, uh, really good for

the client if we can keep all that

220

in house, and that our guys have the

understanding of How to, how to deal

221

with those types of situations so we

can start setting up an investigation

222

or getting a file going on this person,

you know, so that's the, the training

223

is, um, introducing aspects of the cyber

side to the, to the individual agent as

224

they're going through training and, uh,

introducing the technology side too.

225

Like, hey, technology is happening

so fast now, especially with like

226

AI cameras and stuff like that.

227

It's kind of hard to keep up, but they

should just have an understanding.

228

understanding that, hey, you need to learn

all aspects of this field, especially

229

later on if you want to be a detail

leader or a, you know, a chief security

230

officer or something like that on the

corporate level, they have to have not

231

just the cyber, not just the integration,

but also the physical understanding.

232

Because they all work together.

233

And like Lee's saying, the weakest

point there is really the people, right?

234

But, and that can be just egos

between different groups, right?

235

Where they're, they're

not playing nice together.

236

And so the client's not

getting exactly what they need.

237

So when we're integrating training,

what we're trying to do is open the

238

guy's minds to the fact that, hey,

this Security is more than just you

239

standing there looking cool, right?

240

You have to actually get into some

aspects of this other technology and

241

the cyber side so that you can keep

your clients safe on all levels, right?

242

So that's kind of how we incorporate it.

243

Phelim: And, and, and Kevin, I'll

be interested because, you know,

244

with your background, you, you,

you've got martial arts, you've

245

got a lot of physical security.

246

Um, how did, how did, How

do you adapt to all of this?

247

Because maybe if people put

themselves in your shoes, Kevin,

248

and sort of, you know, extrapolate.

249

Kevin Lewis: Yeah, so, um, for myself,

not being a very tech savvy guy, um, I,

250

and, you know, how we, how I'm always

doing things is looking for how I can

251

improve myself for my clients, right?

252

So not just on the physical training side,

but on, on the aspect of learning a little

253

bit of technology so that, At least I

can have a conversation with the IT team

254

and I don't look like a complete idiot.

255

Right?

256

And that they will, they will be able

to, to, um, understand what I need from

257

them, uh, as a detail leader or as a

person who's setting up a contract.

258

Right?

259

And, um, you know, I've seen so many

things go wrong with, you know, um,

260

With teams not communicating and

not getting all the help they need

261

from each other, and then, you know,

when it all falls down, everybody's

262

end up getting fired, right?

263

Because, because nobody's communicating,

we have these egos bouncing around.

264

So, um, for myself, it was

more just about, you know,

265

this is a weakness I have.

266

I need to fix this.

267

Uh, the industry is growing.

268

Um, I had left the industry

and came back, had to retool.

269

Um, and, and, you know, so it's an

ongoing learning for EP or physical

270

is a lifelong process, and it doesn't

include just the physical stuff.

271

It's one of the problems with The

training in the United States is

272

it focuses on what I call the big

sexy, driving, shooting, fighting,

273

you know, all that kind of stuff.

274

But Lee and, and I can tell you that the

people that are really successful are

275

the ones who have that high emotional

intelligence, who understand where they

276

have a weakness and they can fix it.

277

Um, and then, you know, okay, we

need to add integration training.

278

We need to add some cyber training,

and it can be enough just so that

279

they're able to just have that

conversation with the other teammates

280

and know what they need to do, right?

281

So that's kind of how I look at it.

282

My philosophy is always to bring my

best person to the client, because

283

if it's just me out there, And I need

to find ways of force multiplying

284

by these other team members that we

all got to be working together to

285

make this happen every day, right?

286

And to do that, you got to

have some understanding.

287

Phelim: And for that understanding,

Lee, how do you translate that, uh,

288

because I'm sure, Lee, you go to a

lot of cyber conferences and, uh, you

289

know, you're prolific in that side of

the world, but how do you translate it

290

so that, let's say, an EP operator who

has no background, uh, can benefit?

291

Lee McWhorter: Well, I think one of the

things that I've tried to do with some

292

of the times I've gotten to speak to some

of our classes on that side, or even some

293

of the things when I do go to like ASIS,

GSX, or more of a physical, though they're

294

growing the cyber side, and I'm glad to

see that, that whole holistic approach,

295

but you know, like Kevin references,

we're not trying to turn the world.

296

You know, an EP protector into an IT

person, per se, we're trying to give

297

them the knowledge they need to, to,

to help, you know, minimize that risk,

298

you know, like, does the client have

a guest Wi Fi set up at their house?

299

Is that a vulnerability, um, you

know, are the cameras isolated and

300

secure and patched so that people

aren't looking in and spying on them?

301

Um, do they have an, you know,

and they don't have to know

302

how to set up that camera.

303

They don't have to know

how to set up that Wi Fi.

304

Okay.

305

That's technically for the IT or cyber

team to do, but they have to know at

306

least that there's risk there that need

to be discussed and to make sure that that

307

team has done the things they're supposed

to do to keep things updated and safe.

308

And it's sort of like on the other

side, I'm not trying to turn an

309

IT cybersecurity analyst or a pen

tester or whatever role they take.

310

into a protector, um, but I want them

to be aware, you know, about how things

311

that we do affect that side of the house.

312

Camera placement, uh, VLANs to keep

devices and smart devices off of

313

the network for security purposes.

314

It's, you know, and so that's that

integrated approach of training.

315

And one of the things I know that

Kevin and I both want to do in future

316

is even more integrated exercises.

317

Um, you know, where the teams work

together to actually solve a problem,

318

um, you know, and, and both cyber

and EP physical teams could work

319

together to solve those challenges and

320

Phelim: problems.

321

No, I like that because immersive

learning, uh, tabletop exercises, um,

322

very, very much bring teams together.

323

Many people have said pen testing is

the ideal, uh, scenario, although,

324

you know, how, how, how, how red

team, how red teams do you want to

325

be is up to the client, I suppose.

326

Um, but, but we mentioned in, in,

in our prequel that some of the

327

skills are as simple as OSINT.

328

And we've had OSINT sessions on the

podcast before, and many of them

329

concluded, right, I'll take it this

far, but beyond that, I need an expert.

330

What are some of the tools that

you're teaching that sort of take

331

them far enough to be dangerous, but

there's a drop off point, isn't it,

332

where they have to actually say, no,

I need the TSCM expert or something?

333

Well, I mean, I,

334

Lee McWhorter: you know, it's funny.

335

I think some people

have an aptitude for it.

336

You know, a lot of it's research

and, and sort of the, the mental

337

gymnastics of sometimes coming

at a problem differently, trying

338

different searches, different things.

339

And so some people can go

much further than others.

340

But yeah, if you're, depends on what

level, I guess, the client needs and,

341

you know, from, I think, from a protector

and even from a base analyst point of

342

view, um, a basic understanding to sort

of stay abreast of, you know, the threat

343

landscape, you know, we use it in the

cyber side for threat hunting, keeping

344

up with what threat actors are out there,

what they're doing, what they're tactics

345

and procedures are, um, you know, and we

want the protectors to be aware of, you

346

know, threats that are being made against

their principals, uh, the locations

347

they're guarding, whatever that might be.

348

So, um, you know, they're, we're not

trying to get necessarily, um, People

349

all the way down to an OSINT expert,

but I think there's a beginning to

350

intermediate level depending upon

some of the aptitude of some of the

351

Kevin Lewis: students.

352

Yeah, and as far as for myself, you

know, entering into this and working

353

with Lee on developing a little bit

of my skill set, I mean, I, I start

354

very simply with, um, a, a Google, uh,

A Google, um, a Google alert, right,

355

for every client that I start, right?

356

So I'm going to start gaining

a little bit of intelligence on

357

what's out there with the client.

358

Then I do a quick OSINT search

with some of the tools that Lee

359

has set up for us, just to see

what's out there on the client.

360

And then, you know, we'll, we'll toss it

up to someone with a lot more experience

361

and they'll go do a deep dive and see

where the client is vulnerable, right?

362

So, in my case, I'm just

looking really quickly, you

363

know, what is there out there?

364

Is there already someone stalking them?

365

How can we get access to those?

366

Covered 6 is very

proactive in our approach.

367

So if there is someone stalking one of

our clients, you know, we'll want to

368

know where they're at and we may even

go put surveillance on this person

369

versus sitting back and kind of waiting

to see and the typical strategy.

370

Um, we like to, we like to stick a guy

right next to them wherever they're

371

at, you know, just in case and be more

proactive and, um, I think that as As we

372

progress and the threatscape continues

to change, you're going to have to be

373

more and more proactive with the holistic

approach of this because, you know,

374

one or two guys can't get the job done.

375

Right?

376

I mean, if you're already waiting for

the attack to happen, you're too late.

377

Right?

378

So, um, we need to make sure that we're

ahead of the curve as much as we can.

379

And we have things locked

down tight enough that, yeah.

380

That, uh, if someone does a breach,

they gotta have some skill set, right?

381

And then that narrows down the

field of who can do that, right?

382

When you have, uh, you know, celebrities

that are, you know, someone's

383

taking the data, the metadata off

a photo that they've taken, uh, off

384

a reflection off their eyeball, and

followed them to the train station

385

they saw, uh, listed on that, right?

386

I'm sure you've heard of that.

387

that situation, right?

388

This is stuff that can happen now with

people without hardly any training, right?

389

So, you know, if they can get that close

to my client, then I gotta have some

390

effective strategies in place to make

sure that those things don't happen.

391

Phelim: Yeah.

392

It seems, it seems everybody's,

uh, uh, now got the gift of OSINT.

393

Um, high, high profile things.

394

Um, I think on one high profile

occasion, which we don't need to

395

worry about, but someone was, uh,

discovered a lot from a zip tie.

396

Um, just, just one zip tie told

them an awful lot of information.

397

Um, yeah.

398

But where does this then leave

the idea of maybe the technical.

399

EP Professional.

400

I, uh, is this your education for all

EP professionals or do you think it's

401

gonna kind of push us into something

that Christian West likes to bring

402

up a lot, which is the technical EP

professional, um, that, that, that

403

one extra, uh, skill set on the team?

404

Kevin Lewis: Personally, I think that

it's going to require both, right?

405

So everyone should have a base

level of understanding that so that

406

they can look for vulnerabilities.

407

And then we have that guy who

can go deeper and do all that

408

and handle the deeper part.

409

But still, the EP team is going

to have to be aware of all that.

410

They're going to have

to write the reports.

411

They're going to have to

help with the investigation.

412

So, you know, they need to

be knowledgeable as well.

413

But, but, like you said, they're.

414

There does need to be someone who can do

that deeper dive and, uh, has the, the

415

higher skill set, you know, so, and, and

the more demanding the client is, or the

416

more demanding the threatscape is for that

client, the more that's needed, right?

417

But on a base level, I can be a solo

operator for a celebrity and I can

418

get some really good information

and deal with someone on a stocking

419

basis and not have to go there.

420

Right?

421

And like I said, you know, I'm not.

422

The most tech savvy guy in the world.

423

In the world, so if I

can do it, anybody can.

424

Lee McWhorter: Well, Kevin's not

giving himself enough credit.

425

I think a lot of people, they're better

than they think they are when it comes

426

to tech, even if they're not tech.

427

But I, I think that, you know, there's

a couple aspects here, you know.

428

Kevin talked about putting, you know,

somebody to watch, you know, surveillance.

429

That can happen digitally.

430

Kevin and most executive protectors

need to be able to find that

431

and go, okay, that's a problem.

432

But they're not necessarily going

to have the skill to go build a

433

sock puppet and follow that person

digitally and join their groups,

434

but a more advanced person would.

435

Um, and that, you know, and one of

the things that I've been really happy

436

and proud to see within our training

programs is that while we, in each

437

program, touch on aspects of the other.

438

So in the EP and physical side, Kevin

and his team are teaching some cyber

439

and some hygiene and some OSINT,

and we're teaching locks and access

440

controls and basic stuff on our side.

441

Um, one of the things that we're seeing a

lot is actually dozens of students cross

442

and take parts of different programs.

443

Um, and, and I think that

there's two possibilities that

444

are going to happen out of that.

445

One is exactly what you said, sir, you

know, that some of these people are

446

going to be able to move into that.

447

technical EP role, um, and then some

of them are putting it in their back

448

pocket for later, so when they someday

move to, say, Director of Security,

449

they can talk both sides of the house

and, and have that understanding.

450

And so we've had dozens of students,

we actually had one this May, who

451

was the first student who has both.

452

Oh, I shouldn't say both.

453

He has all.

454

So he has physical, security program,

AP program, and both our intro

455

and intermediate cyber programs.

456

So he's the first student

this year that has all four.

457

We have maybe a dozen that have three,

and then we have dozens that have, you

458

know, physical and cyber, cyber and AP.

459

And so that's something we're seeing

a lot of, a lot of crossover, uh,

460

to take it up to that next level.

461

So, so maybe,

462

Phelim: I don't know, it sounds

like a funny question, but

463

I think a useful question.

464

What's not?

465

In the integrated training remit, like

what's, what's not, uh, for you to teach?

466

Um, because, because in a way, again,

it might sound very appealing to,

467

to, to do an integrated training

course, but I, but I wonder where's

468

the, where's the, where's the limits?

469

Where's the, the edge of, of what people,

uh, as, as EP professionals should not be

470

Lee McWhorter: trained?

471

If I can add, I would say a couple,

like, that without additional training,

472

and um, and I preach this across the

board, you really shouldn't be playing

473

around with fake identities, sock

puppets, um, you know, if you're not very

474

well versed in, in building that out.

475

building out a virtual environment

where you can keep that isolated,

476

you run the risk of causing

more trouble than you gain.

477

You, you're giving away to, to your

adversaries that you're watching them.

478

Also, to be honest with you, the, what

we call the dark web, the underbelly

479

through Tor sec, you know, IPsec,

those things are once again, not

480

something that even the beginning

cyber people need to go down into.

481

Um, and we need to be aware of it.

482

But I would not be teaching that in,

in any of those types of programs.

483

That's a more advanced for the technical

side only, and, and there are tools

484

actually as well, um, you know, a number

that are in a sense, you know, Darkal,

485

Echosec, others that are basically,

um, Sort of the Google of dark web.

486

If that's really a need because your

client is so high profile or your, your

487

industry is so targeted by, you know,

advanced persistent threats that you're

488

going to need to be checking that all

the time, then you're going to want

489

to license one of those products where

you don't have to go there yourself.

490

You can run like a Google search

and have a safer way to, so there's

491

different ways to approach that.

492

Kevin Lewis: And

493

Phelim: safe, I think is key, isn't it?

494

Because.

495

Just from my limited impression,

if a novice went somewhere on the

496

dark web, they may go somewhere

they're not supposed to go.

497

Lee McWhorter: Absolutely.

498

With one click, they can see something

that they just broke the law.

499

They saw an image they weren't,

and that's on their computer now.

500

So, I mean, that's something that we

very few, even in the cyber community,

501

some very few of the most experts

go down and play in that world live.

502

Because you're taking a lot of risk

of viruses, malware being uncovered

503

and being attacked, and not to

mention, they're not safe for work

504

and illegal stuff that you might want

505

Kevin Lewis: to do.

506

Yeah, I would agree with

that a hundred percent.

507

There's, there's some places I'm not going

to go, uh, with my limited skill set.

508

And I have to, I have to, uh, be

smart enough to say, Hey, I need to

509

pass this over to that other person

or other, other team member that can

510

handle this, who has the experience.

511

Um, and also, you know, for EP

specifically, um, I don't want to

512

have a bunch of fake identities

and all this kind of stuff.

513

It just doesn't sit well with clients.

514

I think if they were to find about

that, you know, it's the kind of the,

515

you know, a double edged sword for us

in the sense that we have to maintain a

516

high level integrity, and so I may hand

off some of that, I may be able to, you

517

know, fly a drone, I may be able to pop

a drone if we need it, I may be able to

518

do a quick OSINT search and, and just,

you know, ask questions about the cyber

519

side, make sure everything's locked down.

520

But as far as doing the heavy lifting

in that area, it's not my role.

521

Right?

522

And, and I need to be smart enough to

understand that and let the people who

523

do specialize in that handle those deeper

dives and not put the client at risk.

524

Right?

525

So it all comes down to that risk thing

again, you know, do is what I'm going

526

to do a bigger risk to the client than

what information I'm going to get.

527

Right?

528

So, um, yeah.

529

I, I always, we always have

to hedge our betts that way.

530

Right.

531

And, and err on the side of being

conservative, letting the people

532

who do that job do that job for us.

533

And, and that's how you, that's

how you maximize your time as well,

534

Phelim: right?

535

Yeah.

536

And, and we've had, I think Sandra ti

um, who I think you, you know, right?

537

Uh mm-Hmm.

538

Lee McWhorter: and yeah, we

know her very, very well.

539

Good friend.

540

She's on our, our website as well.

541

Partner of ours.

542

Yeah,

543

Phelim: I think, I think one of the, one

of the things she once said on one of

544

the sessions was sometimes a client might

say, do your worst, and they have no idea

545

what you can definitely come back with.

546

So then I wonder, I mean, on the one

side, I've asked what's the remit, you

547

know, what's the edge of your remit,

but is there a danger that you're too

548

successful, especially on the OSINT side?

549

Um, do you, do you, do you have to

manage client expectations and say, This

550

is not for me because you don't want

your bodyguard running around with an

551

enormous amount of personal information.

552

I mean, is there something

there to consider?

553

Lee McWhorter: I would say,

I guess, maybe by client.

554

I defer to Kevin with

his experience on that.

555

I mean, if you've got a good

relationship, my assumption, and maybe

556

it's a little bit romanticized, but

that you've got a relationship, you

557

already know so much about that client

that them, they may not be upset.

558

They, they, you're, you're, with them

24 7, you're living at their house,

559

you're, all these things that could be

possible, but other clients are very,

560

you know, people are very private.

561

So, yeah, I could see that

that could be its own line.

562

It's not even your skill line,

but what the client will tolerate.

563

Kevin Lewis: Yeah, I think the way

that you're presenting that, that

564

could be a double edged sword for the

executive protection specialist, because,

565

you know, um, There are things the

clients don't want you to know, right?

566

And there are, compartmentalization is

not a bad thing in terms of safety, right?

567

So maybe, you know, one, you know,

the detail lead and, uh, company

568

owner are aware of some of these

things, but not every guy on the

569

detail needs to be aware of it, right?

570

They need to be able to do their job

and, um, not get put at risk of, you

571

know, like, if so, they do have all that

information, then what you do with it.

572

Phelim: Lee, what would

you advise a protector?

573

Looking to get into this space, should,

should, should it be a course that

574

they do as part of their basic training

or can they still get on courses that

575

are focused on integrated training?

576

Lee McWhorter: Well, I mean, obviously

there's like ours, you know, some

577

programs, I'm sure others that are trying

to do this or have, you know, electives

578

or ways to put together that type of

training from different other companies.

579

Um, I know it's not a huge

amount out there just based on

580

knowing the space a bit, but.

581

I also do know that even if you went

through a more traditional program,

582

and then you're wanting to add that you

could definitely round it out yourself.

583

As you know, or very well, Sandra has her

courses, there's tons of people that, you

584

know, different types of models, whether

it's, you know, Uh, e learning or, you

585

know, self paced that you could add some

skills in some of those areas when it

586

comes to OSINT and even basic hygiene.

587

We have a free hygiene class

off our website, for example.

588

You know, so there's materials out there

and that's one of the things I know

589

we throw some of our students through

is just to here, take this with you.

590

You can give this and show it to

your other people you work with or

591

your client and their staff so that

they have the same basic knowledge.

592

So there's definitely ways to

add it on even if you didn't

593

get An integrated program

594

Kevin Lewis: to begin with.

595

Yeah, I.

596

I think the thing is, is like,

finally back up, sorry, um, is that,

597

that we're, is that we always have

to work towards integration, right?

598

Um, we're going to give the guys

enough that they can kind of start

599

to understand about the, the, the

other aspects, but on a higher level,

600

if they, if they want to grow in the

industry, they're going to need to

601

expand their area of expertise, right?

602

And, and their knowledge level.

603

Uh, consistently, uh, moving forward,

especially into if you're been a physical

604

guy, you need to kind of, you need to

step over there and start learning about

605

drones and start learning what those

capabilities are, because not only is

606

it a threat, it's also can be an asset.

607

Right?

608

Same thing with cyber.

609

It can be an ad.

610

We got a really good cyber team.

611

They're going to protect us on that side.

612

So there are, there are teammates, you

know, that we need to be able to make sure

613

are working as effectively as they are.

614

So having some knowledge in that

is going to be very important.

615

And

616

Lee McWhorter: I think everybody's going

to have to learn a little bit about AI,

617

um, you know, as it comes down because

especially for higher end, um, you

618

know, celebrity type, uh, principles and

high net worth, people who have a lot

619

of data out them, seeing what AI says

about them, what it has available is a

620

simple OSINT search in a sense now that

will potentially give you some pointers

621

as to where you need to dig deeper.

622

Um, yeah.

623

And then definitely we want to make

sure the teams are working together.

624

Um, like I said, I, I'm not expecting

one of our cyber guys to, you know,

625

per se, jump out and take a bullet or,

you know, do something, but they should

626

know where, where their piece is and how

they support that team and vice versa.

627

Phelim: I like it.

628

I think, I think that maybe

is a much better way to focus.

629

Uh, our efforts, because rather than who

you're going to be, it's who you're going

630

to call, but maybe you need to have an

appreciation of the other discipline as to

631

why you want to call them, much as you may

not be a TACM, uh, specialist, uh, but you

632

know why you might want to call one, um,

which, which I think is, is a bold, a more

633

bold and, uh, less timid kind of approach.

634

I, I, I worry that in years gone by,

people have said, I don't understand it.

635

Therefore it's not me.

636

I But we're not saying it's you.

637

We're saying you, you, you want

to know why you would call such

638

a person, um, a limo driver.

639

You don't have a limo, but you know

why you'd call it a limo driver.

640

Right.

641

So, so, so what's next

for you and COVID 6?

642

Um, where are we next going to see you?

643

What, what, what are you next up to?

644

Lee McWhorter: Well, I, um, have just

passed the bulk of the conference season,

645

though I guess we'll probably be at SHI

show as we head into the new year, and

646

then things will start to pick up for me.

647

It's the usual RSA, Black Hat, DEF CON,

I do try to make JSX, even though we may

648

send some different people this year.

649

We've been trying to get, I've been

going because of some cyber stuff

650

that they're growing, but we really

need to have Jacob and Kevin, our

651

physical side, get to get there too.

652

Um, and so hopefully

we'll do a lot of those.

653

We've been working on, I hope we're

going to be able to heavily talk more

654

about it next year, but even some VR, AR

type of stuff, um, which I think helps

655

us integrate some of this training.

656

So, you know, we're, we're just

constantly trying to innovate.

657

And, uh, we also have our tech integration

program, which is, we're talking here,

658

tech integration, we have a whole nother.

659

Vertical, and that one is focused.

660

It's sort of a hybrid between our two

houses that we have now because the

661

person that takes that class will come out

with a guard guard, uh, even in setting

662

in a GSOC, you got to have that under

California law, but you're going to come

663

out with some secure, you know, like an

A plus and a cabling cert, a drone cert.

664

So it's, it's kind of a, it's

really, it's kind of geared toward

665

that role, that person who's

going to set between those things.

666

So we're excited to launch that.

667

Kevin Lewis: Yeah, on the physical

side, we're getting ready to launch

668

in January, our next year of training.

669

Um, but then also, uh, like he said, we

have the tech integration, uh, academy

670

that's sitting there waiting to get going.

671

Um, and, um.

672

You know, that's, that's kind

of where we have to go now.

673

We have a drone program that's

in progress now, uh, with, uh,

674

you know, so we're incorporating

that into to all of our stuff.

675

We have, uh, virtual patrol officers with

a major metropolitan police department.

676

So, you know, the, the role

of security continues to grow.

677

And along with that, the, the, um,

Executive Protection on the physical

678

side need to be able to grow with that.

679

You know, it's always going to come down.

680

You've got to have people, right?

681

But at the same time, we have to,

we have accounts that have robots.

682

We have accounts that have G socks.

683

We have accounts that have, um.

684

that have a full cyber team.

685

We have our OSINT side, you know, and all

of this is happening at the same time.

686

We're, we're popping drones for

surveillance on, you know, communities

687

that we work with because, you

know, people are trying to crawl

688

into their backyard, you know, so.

689

It's a, it's a much, you know, easier way

to be sitting at a house on a residence

690

and pop a drone who has some night vision

on it and be able to track somebody

691

who's trying to get on the property.

692

So this is where all of this is going now.

693

And, you know, the, the, the

physical side needs to kind of

694

step up their game and, and start.

695

Uh, looking at how to make this

a fully integrated, holistic

696

approach to security all the time.

697

Not just, you know, hey, I need

you to go do, fix this problem.

698

It needs to be working

together all the time.

699

Phelim: And I want to pounce, I

know this is not the topic of this,

700

uh, podcast, but January 2020, I do

remember I got on people that trained

701

UAV flying, drone flying, and some

other people who had dabbled in it.

702

And back then we said, you know

what, maybe we'll need an FAA

703

license for every operator.

704

Are we talking about that type of UAV

or are we talking about one that's

705

permissible under municipal law

that you don't need an FAA license?

706

Lee McWhorter: I would say both.

707

I mean, our program is going to

do the FAA license for, for larger

708

drones, um, for the tech integration.

709

Um, but the capabilities of these

small drones have grown so much

710

just like the military is doing.

711

I mean, I'm sure this is happening with

Kevin and our team already, but I mean, if

712

I imagine myself, I'm just a geek, but if

I'm an executive protector and I can get

713

an 89 4K little drone that I can carry.

714

I'm going to have that bad boy with me.

715

I don't know when it might come out,

but I don't have to have any rules.

716

I can pop it up, see over that

hill, see what's coming at me.

717

You know, so, you know, and so I

could, I would probably have one.

718

And they've gotten so capable.

719

It's like I have everything in tech.

720

You know, it doubles and

gets smaller and faster

721

Kevin Lewis: every year.

722

Yeah, I mean, that's the integration.

723

We were learning how to now, uh, not just

do the quick, you know, pop the drone,

724

look at the residents, make sure there's

nobody around the area, but also like,

725

you know, hey, the client wants to be,

you know, you'd be more low profile,

726

so how can we do that with left bodies?

727

Well, we can pop a drone, we can set

it over on a light pole, it can watch

728

the client from there, you know, we

can set up, uh, surveillance cars,

729

we can do all kinds of stuff now

that we didn't have access to to,

730

uh, before, but I, I do agree with

Lee that it's going to take both.

731

I mean, you do have to have your,

your FAA license to fly a drone.

732

So a lot of, uh, the residential

security teams now are requiring that.

733

Um, I notice, uh, World Protection

Group, they, they've been asking

734

for that for years now, right?

735

And, uh, and I took notice of

that because I'm like, Ooh, well,

736

there's another aspect, right?

737

This is a place where an EP guy can

specialize too, like a TCSM, but

738

also be able to do, you know, the

drones and things like that as well.

739

I mean, it just kind of opens up, you

know, you to get hired better, right?

740

So, so we always encourage the guys

like, hey, get in, do extra training

741

on stuff that's going to get you

hired, you know, security driver's

742

certificate, a medical, right?

743

If you're an EMT, that's, everybody

wants one of those on their teams.

744

Everybody wants a guy that can

handle the cyber and the drone and

745

all that kind of stuff too, because.

746

When we're traveling around the

world, we need all that, right?

747

We need to

748

Phelim: be able to That's definitely

something I need as a, as an

749

extra podcast session, I think.

750

I think we need to do that.

751

Would you be able I'll find some,

I'll find, I'll find some trainers

752

and some operators and we can, we can

do an entire Maybe I'll ask Kent from

753

WPG and, uh, we can we can all do it.

754

Sounds cool.

755

Sounds good.

756

All right.

757

Well, thanks very much for coming on.

758

I appreciate, uh, this is a bit different

because we're talking integration.

759

Therefore there's two of you and we're

integrating the, uh, the, the talk.

760

Um, I know you've, uh,

supported the number of virtual

761

events, uh, over the years.

762

So, so thank you very much

for, for, for doing this.

763

Um, I really appreciate you coming on and,

uh, I, I feel this actually will help the

764

Protector, which I think is what we're.

765

We're trying to, I shouldn't be so

surprised, but I, but I, but I, but I, but

766

I do think this will help the community.

767

Um, Kevin and Lee, thanks

very much for coming on.

768

This has been another fantastic edition

of the Circuit Magazine podcast.

769

Lee McWhorter: Thanks

so much for having us.

770

It's been a

771

Kevin Lewis: blast.

772

Phelim: Well, thank you

very much, Lee and Kevin.

773

I've really waited a long time

to get them on the podcast.

774

So I'm really, really.

775

pleased about today's

integrated EP trading session.

776

I'm back with Shaun West.

777

Shaun, what are some of the

high level things you've taken

778

away from today's session?

779

Well,

780

Shaun West: it's really interesting

actually, because I've done a lot of

781

awesome training myself, and I love

the tools that it gives you, and

782

it becomes really quite addictive.

783

So it's really interesting to hear

how Lee and Kevin spoke about it,

784

the tools that they're developing and

training individuals in, and to get

785

their, their take on the OSINT space.

786

So no, I actually really enjoyed it.

787

And yeah, lots of stuff for

788

Lee McWhorter: discussion.

789

Phelim: Maybe again, our, our

listeners will think, well,

790

this would be very interesting.

791

And, uh, the, the, the, the whole circuit,

the whole EP community are very good at

792

doing courses and are very diligent at,

you know, self improvement, but, but

793

maybe it's, it's worth, as we discussed

with Lee and Kevin, you know, seeing the

794

parameters of that, because, um, you know,

what does your principal expect of you?

795

Uh, what would be a nice to

have and what would be totally,

796

totally out of the wheelhouse?

797

Like, would, would, would your principal

expect you to fix his very expensive car?

798

Uh, it would be a nice

feature, wouldn't it?

799

You know, to have, to have a

mechanic on board, but it's,

800

but it's not quite, your job.

801

Do you see where I'm

going with that, Shaun?

802

Shaun West: No, I do.

803

And I think it depends what sort of end

of the market you operate in, because

804

if you're working with the ultra,

ultra high net worth individuals,

805

they don't employ a bodyguard to,

I don't know, cook their main meal.

806

They have a chef.

807

They don't employ bodyguards

to trim the garden.

808

They have a gardener.

809

They have the money and the funds.

810

to employ the best people in the game

who are specialists at what they do.

811

However, when you go down the market,

maybe there's some people that,

812

you know, are very wealthy or very

shrewd with their money and the

813

more value add you can bring, the

more valuable you become to them.

814

So there is a space for broadening

your knowledge and bringing that value.

815

But I think at that top end of

the market, it's always going

816

to be specialists that are

817

Phelim: seeked out.

818

Yeah.

819

And, and, and so maybe your,

your value and, and a, and a

820

lot of the community kind of.

821

advertise themselves as

concierge services as well.

822

And in some geographies, that's all

one can be technically, a concierge

823

service, a signpost, um, a facilitator.

824

You, you know, you, do you remember

that episode with Kenji Okamoto

825

just before the Tokyo Olympics?

826

Um, he, he sort of said, Well, I'm not

allowed to have any use of force at all,

827

so one of the magic features he manages

to do is make sure the penthouse lift

828

is reserved for the penthouse guest.

829

It's just such a small thing, but it's

totally within the signposting agenda.

830

Have you come to have

to signpost yourself?

831

You know, has anyone said, oh,

Can you tell me about AV or IT or

832

TSCM and, and then you're like,

aha, I know the right person.

833

Shaun West: Absolutely.

834

And that's come to me many times.

835

And I've seen it as my duty, as I

went up through an organization in a

836

past life where I became the director

of security in a family office and

837

was being the director of security.

838

I didn't need to be an expert

in all things security because I

839

brought in subcontractors that were

specialists in different fields.

840

And one of my duties, which I found was

whilst gaining knowledge in different

841

areas, whether that's, you know,

the capabilities of canines who are

842

providing canine security, whether it's

cyber specialists, whatever it may be,

843

TCSM specialists, I'd always increase

my knowledge in all of these areas.

844

But exactly what I said,

I was also a signpost.

845

I had a very good black book of vendors

that I invented a new specialist in

846

that field, and we're good at that task.

847

So whilst growing that knowledge

yourself, whilst you're not the expert,

848

you have enough knowledge to be able to

question the experts and also to know

849

they're not pulling your pants down as

850

Lee McWhorter: well.

851

Phelim: That's, that's right.

852

You need to be dangerous enough,

but without actually being

853

that, uh, that, that expert.

854

Wonderful.

855

No, I think, I think this is good

because, because honestly we have had.

856

Very good questions at events that

have literally gotten to the, you know,

857

cut to the chase and they say, right?

858

What am I supposed to learn

in the world of cyber?

859

What is it?

860

Um, so, so, so today's session

I think goes a longer way to,

861

to, to, to helping us with that.

862

OSINT skills, research skills, signposting

skills, appreciation of who you're going

863

to call, which Which I think is a lot more

honest than saying, right, well, now you

864

need to learn to code in Python, because.

865

Because, fun as that could be, if you

are so inclined, it's not your day job.

866

So, what's next?

867

What's coming up for the magazine

and the community as a whole?

868

Shaun West: As always, we're

working on the next issue, and

869

we've got some more podcasts.

870

Guests lined up for interview.

871

Um, and also it was great to see you

at the Coast Protection World event.

872

That was an excellent event where

we met up with many people, many

873

of our readers, subscribers,

and yeah, what a fantastic day.

874

Phelim: Yeah, actually, sorry, um,

I should have mentioned, thank you

875

listeners who came up to us and said,

You like, uh, what, uh, what we're doing.

876

Um, uh, I don't know if you

wanted your names broadcast,

877

so we'll just say thank you.

878

Uh, it was really a great pleasure.

879

Some people came up with specific episodes

they liked, uh, some people came up

880

with, uh, other very nice things to say.

881

Um, it was very much appreciated.

882

Um, so, so thank you for stopping by the

Circuit Magazine store and of course thank

883

you to CP World for hosting us, uh, again.

884

Always, always lovely to,

uh, to, to, to see everyone.

885

I'm very much looking forward to the

9th Annual Executive Security and

886

Close Protection Technology Forum

on the 25th of January in London.

887

Uh, many, many people actually

will People know about it.

888

Many people took postcards and details

and if you want to take a trip across

889

the pond, if you're in the States, then

please get to get your booking in now.

890

A common question, I know this

is, I'm doing an extended plug.

891

Sorry, the extended plug for this.

892

A common question is, Um,

does it clash with Davos?

893

No, it doesn't.

894

It is after Davos, so you're, you're all

good, if anybody was in fact wondering.

895

I thought I'd just do

frequently asked questions.

896

But yeah, integrated protection, an

honest look from COVID 6, Lee and Kevin,

897

thank you very much for coming on.

898

Shaun West and myself have very

much appreciated the time you've

899

spent with us at the podcast.

900

So, Thank you very much, and this

has once again been another fantastic

901

edition of the Circuit Magazine podcast.

902

Kevin Lewis: You have been listening

to the Circuit Magazine podcast.

903

Be sure to subscribe and be

sure to not miss an episode.