Here we are in season 6 of the Why Does My Partner podcast! We want to start out with a question we’ve been getting a lot, especially since our boundary mini-series (go back and give that a listen now if you haven’t already!). It goes something like this:

“I get that practicing boundaries means working to not personalize others’ actions, but also…isn’t it fair to ask them not to do something that doesn’t feel loving to me?”

Of course, it’s fair! Take a listen to this episode to hear our thoughts on just that, as well as how practicing your psychological boundaries can actually mean speaking up for yourself more, not less, plus much, much more!

Don’t forget to subscribe to WDMP on your favorite podcast app to stay up to date with the rest of season 6!

Quotes:

Your psychological boundary helps you figure out what you're not okay with…and [helps you have] relationally cleaner conversation about the thing you don't like.

Setting a boundary is about adding protection, not punishment.

I don’t need to make you more like me to be okay.

I have worth just for being who I am. And I get to speak for that because if I don't, who's gonna?

This episode is brought to you by Therapy Wisdom.

Jules' new book is out now! Buy Setting Boundaries that Stick: How Neurobiology Can Help You Rewire Your Brain to Feel Safe, Connected, and Empowered wherever books are sold.

Share your questions with us at whydoesmypartner.com/contact

If you want to dive in deeper, consider attending our upcoming workshops. Learn more at whydoesmypartner.com/events

Mentioned in this episode:

Let's take a moment to acknowledge our amazing sponsor The Academy of Therapy Wisdom. Jules is one of their many amazing educators. And because you listen to us, the Therapy Wisdom team is offering a secret code to give you free access to one of Jules' 1 hour Wise Conversations. Visit Therapywisdom.com or click the link in the show notes and use the ‘WDMP’ discount code."

Therapy Wisdom

Therapy Wisdom

Welcome to the Why Does My Partner podcast.

I'm Jules.

I'm Vicki.

And I'm Rebecca.

We're your hosts.

We're also couples therapists and messy humans bumbling

through our own relationships

every day.

We met at a training, and our secret sauce is that we, and our

partners, became fast friends.

Between us, we have more than 40 years of experience holding hard

relational questions with our clients.

We're going to bring those questions here.

And together, we're going to take a stab at answering those questions.

This podcast is not a substitute for couples therapy.

If something you hear in this podcast stirs something deep within you

about your relationship, reach out to a couples therapist in your area.

We also love to hear your questions, so don't forget to

go over to whydoesmypartner.

com to leave a question of your own.

Here's today's question.

Welcome back.

This is Jules.

This is Vicki.

And this is Rebecca.

And here's our first question in season six.

I just listened to the Psychological Boundary episode.

And I can understand that we should work to not personalize and take our

partner's or whoever's reactions about us.

But also, isn't it fair to ask our partners not to scoff at us?

Like, ostensibly, if we're choosing this partner to entangle our lives with

and love us and love them and witness us and witness them, isn't it fair to

say this reaction doesn't feel loving?

Well, of

course, am I allowed to jump in and say, yes, yes.

Yes.

Oh, you know what I find?

And I run into this all the time in, in my office.

And as I've been talking to people, the books out, I went to a book launch.

This was one of the questions that came up actually.

Wow.

Yep.

So like, this is a question I keep running into common.

It's wait a second.

Wait a second.

Are you saying my psychological boundary should just make me okay

with like whatever's happening?

Absolutely not.

I want to be really, really clear about that.

Yeah.

Well, but what are

you thinking?

But it's like your psychological boundary helps you figure out

what you're not okay with.

For sure.

And that, I think that's actually like really important.

I think it's a important step that maybe in the nuance of the

conversation, I don't want to skip over.

Like, um, it's before I really started practicing this work, I didn't

really know what I wasn't okay with.

Mm hmm.

And I would tolerate behaviors that really didn't feel okay and really weren't okay

because I have these parts in me that are very geared towards pleasing and

appeasing and taking care of other people.

Accommodating.

Right?

And, and so, so I'm going to tolerate things from that part of

me that I shouldn't be tolerating and I shouldn't be, I shouldn't,

I should be speaking up around.

Yeah.

But I wasn't.

And my psychological boundary work has helped me to recognize, oh, you know what?

That's not about me and it's not okay.

Mm

hmm.

And.

Mm hmm.

It's not okay.

And, and the, and this piece feels so important to me to name too, as

we're with the more nuance of it.

The psychological boundary is there to help you have a

relationally cleaner conversation about the thing you don't like.

Yes.

Because the hope here.

That's a great way to phrase it.

Well, the hope here is to separate out.

feeling and thought from behavior.

So let's say

we can keep it about this, the behavior versus what he was thinking.

Yeah.

Well, I was thinking the other day I did this with my, with my little one.

She rolled her eyes at me, right?

That's the, so the rolling the eyes, not just my house.

It's not just your house.

So the rolling the eyes is the behavior.

And that part feels disrespectful to me, that falls under my, my

category of disrespect that's in my not okay world, right?

And, and the thought and feeling that we're underneath that eye roll, that's

the part I don't want to mess with.

In a, I'm not saying I'm not going to influence it.

Maybe you will, maybe you won't.

But in a, I need to get you to think and feel different so that

you don't roll your eye at me.

That's the piece that I'm calling, um, psychologically invasive.

Mm hmm.

It's a little, it's a little bit like, I need you to stop.

I need you to stop having the world in this way.

I need you to stop thinking the way you think.

And feeling the way you feel.

That's the part I want to separate out.

The psychological boundary work is so that you separate those two so that

when I'm with my daughter, I can say, Hey, and by the way, I'm not even

going to set a boundary right now.

I'm about to do a direct request because direct request is all about

asking the other person not to do the thing or to do this thing that

you would like them to do, right?

So sweetie, could you not roll your eyes?

That lands in a hurt way on mommy's heart.

Oh.

Why?

And then she started asking me, why?

That's such a great question, babe.

Let's talk about that.

And then we got into this whole conversation about what are

you feeling when you did that?

What were you thinking when you did that?

What were you hoping when you rolled your eyes at me?

What did you really want when you rolled your eyes at me?

So we had this whole conversation about how to have a cleaner communication and

a communication I could take in better.

And

it's clean on my end

because I'm not trying to get her to not feel the thing.

And I'm not trying to get her Not think the thing.

What I'm doing is greeting the thing that preceded the eye roll.

But I'm addressing the eye roll separately.

So we address the scoff, we address the eye roll, we address the

language, we address the volume of the voice through first direct

request, maybe more than once.

And if, if, if nothing is changing and it is not okay, then I would do boundary.

This thing that you're doing is okay.

This thing that you're doing is not okay.

When that things happens, here's what I'm going to do.

And that's about adding protection, not punishment.

Yeah.

It's about adding protection, not punishment.

I'm not trying to punish my daughter for the eye roll.

If she won't stop.

Right.

But I want to laugh.

Go ahead.

Finish.

I might choose to, like, pause a conversation with her in that moment.

Right.

And then, and then the question is, oh, can You For some people, I get

this a lot too, is, well, does that mean I should leave the relationship?

Well, I don't know.

Is this like a deal breaker level problem?

And that's not a question

for me.

Right.

That's, that's a question for you.

Only you can decide that.

Yeah.

I have to laugh and I just, I wanna own, this was a little bit ago, but,

um, and this is me doing Uturn U-turn.

Oh no, I actually do in my not great moments.

Want to change the way Gabe is experiencing the world.

So yeah.

Oh, yeah, totally.

And there's no, I'll go ahead and say there, I don't think I'm alone

in that, but, so it's not only I want to change the behavior, I do, I, I

actually I don't as much want to change my children's experience in the world,

but oh, I absolutely I'll just own it.

Yes, I do.

Oh, no.

Something about not changing the experience of the world.

And I burst out laughing.

So I was like, Oh no, I really didn't want to change games.

I

really don't.

Here's the thing is this is, I love that you're naming this.

Because that's exactly what my point.

I think we do want to, and I think it's psychologically invasive when we try to.

I agree with that as

well.

I wish it wasn't.

I need a psychological boundary

because I can be emotionally

manipulative.

And I want it to be okay.

I do want to change it.

I just believe in my own integrity.

That's actually not an.

Okay.

Thing to let myself do.

Well, so I'm creating this psychological boundary to give myself more space

to really move more into how I want

to see the world, but that it's actually not just a psychological boundary, right?

This is where we go.

Like we're like, put, this is ninja stuff.

We're putting things together because we're now putting together direct

requests with psychological boundaries and with containing boundaries, right?

The pause.

Right?

Well, I'm using the psychological boundary inside of my pause, right,

to help me greet the person I'm with.

Right,

but before you move from the things you're thinking and feeling to the things you're

saying and doing, right, the behavior and, and the words that you're speaking.

Before you move to that, we need a little pause with a little

containing boundary, like, right?

So, so

like, I'm weaving them together like this.

It's like, right.

And here's this thing that emerges, which is like a new way of doing relationships.

By the way, massive plug.

I've had people coming in and talking to me in my office about the book.

And some of the stuff that they're talking to me about, because we've been

doing a lot of this work already, right?

It's not like so new for some of my people, but one of the things they're

really talking to me about is that knowing their why is so freaking important

because it keeps them on task and it helps them remember, Oh, that's why I'm

practicing my psychological boundary.

That's why I'd be practicing the containment.

That's why I'd be making a direct request, right?

Like it's, it's helping them to integrate all of this into one cohesive practice.

That

is so

awesome to hear that I want to add to that.

Um, just about me again, I'm a little selfish today, but I love it because

my why with my son Michael and I, this might be the first time I've

actually like named him an example, but it's not any, it's not, it's.

My, why with him is helping me stick to limits that I've given him.

Um, like if I say that I'm going to do this by the count of five, I

better do it by the count of five.

Or if I say you need to shut off the computer, then I have to stick to

whatever consequences coming after.

Um, And I've been really loose with that his entire life.

And so when I figured out my why, that's what gives me the strength of

like, in this moment is important for me to be raising a man with integrity

and I have to model for him that you do what you say you're going to do.

But I had to actually think about that one night, like I was rehab

and it was like, what's my why?

And I was like, I was describing it to myself and I went, Oh, I

want to raise a man with integrity.

That's a pretty big why.

It's a

pretty big why.

It's a pretty big why.

It's a, it's a big enough why it will give you the emotional oomph

you need to do the hard thing.

Yes.

Great.

So, Oh, his discomfort is very hard for me.

Yeah.

Similar to like, why is it hard when we disappoint, like Gabe,

Gabe's scoff the last recording, but Michael's disappointment, Ooh,

it's hard for me to upset him.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Totally.

Limits upset him.

So, but it's that big why is.

Yeah.

imperative.

Yeah,

it is.

It is.

It's really helpful.

So when I'm thinking about this question and like, is it okay, is it okay?

Isn't it fair to ask what I'm noticing, uh, caller who's writing in, uh, calling

in with this, um, what I'm, what I'm thinking is you want to separate out.

the feeling and thought part.

So the idea behind the psychological boundary, and I think I say

this, can I tell you all how hard it is to write a book?

One of the things I find really, really difficult about

writing a book is two things.

One is that in general, in these experiences, I Um, actually have

long, ongoing conversations with people and we're kind of co creating

and understanding these ideas in a nuanced way in conversation

and I can't do that in writing.

But the other piece that's really, really difficult that's coming

up right now is whoo, I'm already saying it better, but I wrote it.

18 months ago.

Dang it.

Okay.

Here's, here's, here's my new take on it.

Are you ready?

This is just the hard piece.

Realization to hear it.

That's fascinating.

Okay.

It's like, Oh

man, it's transforming and I already wrote it down.

Dang it.

I've, um, but that's part of it.

This is just, this is part of the evolution of thought, right?

This was one of the things that was really challenging for me about

putting it on paper is that I knew, I knew when I was putting on paper.

Yeah, and later I'll say it different and evolve my thinking on this.

So here's, as I'm trying to help people wrap their heads around

this, here's what I'm thinking.

I'm trying to help us feel a little safer, a little more protected as

we face this truth about minds.

You happen to be born in a species that's an interconnected one.

So longing for relationships is just something you're wired for and you

don't get to do much about that.

Sorry.

That's a great way to phrase it, we're just wired

that way.

We're just wired that way.

It is what it is.

And two.

Yeah.

Everybody's mind is different than yours.

Nobody actually agrees with you perfectly.

Everybody sees the world differently than you.

We're all beings, whether we like it or not, we're all

beings with different minds.

So you're going to see the world differently than the

person standing next to you.

And I don't care if it was your identical twin.

That's still going to be true.

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter because

you have all these different nuances in your DNA and in your own history and what

you took in from that event that they didn't take in from that event and how

you see this thing is just different.

You don't see reality the same.

That's the truth of it.

So if I need to be connected to somebody super different than me, how can I

feel a little bit more okay with that?

That's what the psychological boundary is for,

is that I don't have to change you.

I don't have to make you more like me

in order

to be.

I don't need to make you more like me to be okay.

Yeah.

That's what the psychological boundary is for.

Executed boundaries and direct requests are more to handle behavior issues.

And containing boundary is more to handle.

You, you could, you could lose a pause between what you feel

and what you do pretty easy.

And if you add one, it sure will help you stay in your integrity.

So, so that's more like an integrity move.

And then the physical boundary is more about like physical safety in

the here and now and knowing more about what your body wants in this

world.

I like to think that the containing boundary, the, the integrity

move, it's, it's about creating a pause within myself long enough.

That I can figure out what I'm going to do next that feels okay enough.

Yeah.

Right?

Because it's not actually about the pause, it's about what happens next.

The pause just gives you space to make a decision with a little bit more integrated

brain space because you're going to use compassion as part of your pause.

And so because the love part is there, it's going to help your brain go, Oh,

things are a little bit more okay and move back into a little bit more integration.

Because we've

introduced two specific keywords that are unique to each of us.

We also have kind of like a compass.

A little reminder.

Mm hmm.

Totally.

To help us remember, like, you know, this is how I really

want to show up in the world.

And so that helps with, with kind of coming back home to ourselves

in those tough moments and figuring out, oh, you know what?

It wouldn't feel so good for me to keep doing this this way or for me to make

this, uh, ask of someone that would.

Ask them to change how they're thinking or feeling.

What would feel better and be more in my integrity would be for me to maybe

make a direct request or for me to tell them, you know, that didn't feel so good.

Here's what I'm going to do.

Here's how I'm going to take care of myself in a way that would feel better.

Um, but I'm able to do more of that because of the pause.

Yeah.

Right.

I actually asked for more change.

Mm hmm.

Because of this work.

Yeah.

Not less.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

And something I'm thinking, too, that caught my attention in this question

was this idea of, isn't it fair?

And I just want to slow us down for a second because I think we have these.

questions about like, is it okay for me to ask for what I want?

Is it okay for me to ask for what I need?

Am I justified in it kind of, and this speaks to me of a larger, harder thing.

That's like wider than even this question of like, are we worthy of

fighting for and asking for stuff?

And.

and saying what doesn't feel good and like, I watch, I watch all of us.

Kind of operate from the space of, well, it has to feel justified enough, rather

than just knowing you're a worthwhile being.

I want to like, stick my tongue out at all of that.

Like, I want to scoff at that belief, you know?

Like, not at any of us, but at the belief

that Oh no, at the societal issue.

Yeah, that there's somehow like, there's not enough inherent worth in any of us.

Right.

That, that, that any of us would have to prove our humanity or, or our worthiness.

And I think that systems being what they are.

Whether we're talking family systems or school systems or other kinds of

institutional systems, wherever we're talking, we're set up in a way where

we're taught to abandon ourselves.

We're taught to move away from ourselves in service of something that is not us.

And so part of this work is the return to the self, is the return to

I have worth just for being who I am.

And I get to speak for that because if I don't, who's gonna?

Right.

Totally.

And who knows you and what you need better than you?

And, and

for many of us, it's not our

parents.

Yeah.

For some of us it was too.

And so I find myself thinking, if not me, then who?

And some people actually can answer that, but I'm, let's

pretend for me it was my mom.

And I just don't

know.

Can I, can I slow us down for a minute?

Not to just interrupt you there, Vic, but I think for folks who, who

had really well attuned to parents.

I think those people come into relationships with a better sense of self.

They come into relationships speaking for themselves differently

because they, that was valued.

Well, yes.

I don't want to minimize that.

And I'm thinking the other, there's a downside when, if you're, when you're

young, who's going to speak up for me if your parents are, but like.

Doing it in such a way that you still don't have your own voice.

I don't want my mom speaking up for me now that I'm 50.

Right.

Yeah.

Let's pretend she was still alive.

Like, eventually I do have to own that somehow.

So even if when we were young people were doing it, but if they were

doing it in, I don't know, some weird way or wrong way, whatever,

I don't Like those words, but, or

even exquisite attunement sometimes can be hard because it can give me a space

where I don't have to learn how to Mm-Hmm.

exquisitely attune myself.

I think that's what I'm thinking.

Yeah.

'cause my parent was so exquisitely attuned to me.

Yeah.

And spoke for me with all the things.

And so I never really had to learn to use my voice.

Um, that can be challenging in a different,

that's what I'm leaning towards.

Like we still need to learn how to do it for ourselves And, Mm-Hmm.

um.

And understanding this is what you both are talking about with the inherent

worth that yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm allowed to ask for anything in the relationship.

Yeah.

Totally.

It's allowed even the point.

Yeah.

Like I get, I get these questions about fairness or am I allowed to, or is it

justified that I, or, um, Is it okay to ask for relational accountability and, and

Oh, you know, yeah, yeah, of course it is.

And I'm, I'm calling this out not because of you caller, but because Mm-Hmm.

I'm, I'm, I'm naming this larger problem where we assume we have to earn love

and we assume we have to earn worth.

rather than operating from a space of deep value that is equal to others.

And so that's the piece.

That I think all this work of boundaries is about living into

equal worth.

Well, I think it can also be scary because I'm realizing if I know that

I'm allowed to and it's fair and it's justified and I can, I'm allowed to tell,

joking here, but in response to the call, I'm going to make it me, I'm allowed

to ask Gabe to stop scoffing at me.

And then if he says no to that direct request, I have

to deal with that reality as

well.

And it may be even that you set a boundary.

Yeah.

It may be that you go through grief and you're not setting

a boundary and that's fine.

And it may be that you set a boundary with it like, okay, I hear you.

You cannot control or don't want to try stopping that you're stopping me.

When you do, I want you to know I'm going to have to end that conversation.

It's just too painful for me.

Yeah.

And then I'd go ahead and follow through with that and end the conversation.

And then he starts, you know, chasing me down the hallway a little bit

and being, what is the big deal?

I don't.

Right.

Don't.

Now my psychological boundaries up.

Hmm.

I'm not going to change his mind about this.

I know, sweetie, that you don't understand why this is painful for

me, whether you can take it in or not.

It is.

I'm just going to take care of me.

I'll be back in 10 minutes.

But notice your tone too.

And that's because I wasn't urgently

trying to change it.

Yes, exactly.

Like you don't get a tacky.

You didn't get, um.

This is about not attacking, but speaking up.

Yeah.

This boundary work is nuanced and complex, isn't it?

It sure

is.

I love it.

And doable.

Mm-Hmm.

. And doable.

And doable and complex and practicable and doable.

And it'll change your brain.

Yeah.

Yes.

Lots of practice.

Yeah.

All right, so we'll see you back here next week.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

That wraps up this week's episode.

Join us again next week for another Why does my partner,

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Take care of each other the best you can.

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