Shownotes
Divorce after 50—often called gray divorce—comes with its own unique challenges and hidden truths. In this eye-opening episode of Doing Divorce Different, I sit down with seasoned attorney Michelle to dive deep into the emotional, financial, and relational complexities of gray divorce.
Whether you’re an empty nester questioning your future, someone who’s felt controlled or stuck in a long-term marriage, or a woman wondering if there’s still time to rebuild her life—this episode is for you.
We’re talking real talk:
💬 Why more couples are divorcing later in life
💬 The financial shock that often hits non-working spouses
💬 What "control" really looks like in a marriage
💬 How to plan for your future with clarity, not fear
💬 The emotional toll of adult children taking sides—and how to rise above it
This episode is filled with wisdom, warmth, and practical steps for women who want to face this season with strength and grace.
🎧 Listen now to find out what no one tells you about gray divorce—and how to move forward with confidence.
What You’ll Learn:
- The emotional and financial realities of gray divorce
- How to identify hidden patterns of control
- The importance of a “Plan B” if you’ve been out of the workforce
- Why collaborative divorce may offer more peace
- How to prepare yourself mentally and emotionally for the next chapter!
● SOCIAL LINKS: Michele on LinkedIn and
● WEBSITE: Here https://www.michelelocke.com/
● CELL NUMBER: 512-820-6252 (call or text)
EMAIL: [email protected]
- Coaching and mediation with Lesa:
- Connect with me: www.lesakoski.com | @lesakoski
Mentioned in this episode:
Saddle Up Live Podcast Ad
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Transcripts
I am so excited for this week's doing divorce different.
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I'm so excited to be back.
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I'm so excited for my guest.
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You're going to love her.
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She is a retired judge,
not really retired.
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She's just, I.
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Not a judge anymore.
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She's in private practice.
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Her name is Michelle Locke.
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She is from Texas and she has so much
information for you about divorce.
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If I were in Texas and I needed to
hire an attorney to do my divorce,
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it would definitely be Michelle.
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She understands every aspect.
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She has been a child of divorce.
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She has.
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Been through a divorce and she has tried
divorce cases, uh, over and over again.
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She's, she's so fun to listen to.
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She's gonna give us her story
and then she's gonna go into.
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Divorce and we're gonna, it's a little bit
scary to hear about how it works in, in
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Texas, and I don't want you to be afraid.
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I want you to use this to gain
information and insight so that you
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can start this journey if you need to.
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And you know, I don't want you
to get divorced unless you have
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to, but we're gonna talk about.
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All things divorce and and gray
divorce because I have kinda white
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hair and so I'm always interested.
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So we talk about gray divorce because
that can be really scary if you are
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getting close to retirement and this is
something that maybe has been thrown at
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you or something that you want to pursue.
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So it's about great divorce.
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And then at the very end, just because
she's so knowledgeable, I wanted to get
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a little more information about abuse.
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So we're gonna delve into that
at the end of this podcast.
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Listeners, she's so fun to listen to.
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This is what I want you to know.
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If you wanna hear more, please
go to My Saddle Up Live podcast.
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You know that I'm doing that now too.
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And we're, I'm, I'm talking to Michelle,
the judge and the attorney, and we're
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talking about self-care and who better
to talk through self-care than her.
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So, um, enjoy, enjoy this episode.
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Send me notes, subscribe.
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Let me know if you have questions.
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I'm here for you and I want
you to have a better life.
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Even after divorce.
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Stay tuned.
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Okay, so now I've kinda set the stage
for this beautiful woman sitting in front
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of me, this woman who wants to educate
people so that they're less afraid.
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I love that about you, Michelle.
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I think what my listeners love to
hear, they love to really get to
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know the people on this podcast.
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Could you just share, I don't think
you've had an easy life or an easy story.
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Can you share your authentic story so we
can get to know you a little bit better?
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Speaker 2: First off, I don't like
to think of my background as anything
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more difficult than anyone else has.
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It's just my personal experience.
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Okay.
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That being said, I'll never forget,
I was in second grade in Miss Henry's
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class and it was October, and my mom.
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Pull us aside on a Friday after school
and said Dad wasn't coming back anymore.
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And I remember my mom crying afterwards
and I remember myself crying, but
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I also don't remember it being some
big surprise leading up to that.
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My parents had a tumultuous
relationship and not because of my mom.
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It was a hundred percent my dad's fault.
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I remember my dad slamming
my mom up against the wall,
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her begging him not to leave.
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Because the, I guess the flavor of the
week for him was sitting in a car across
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the street fighting to pick him up.
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I remember lots of times with my mom
crying, and I also remember about the
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same time that she told us she was
getting divorced or the dad wasn't
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coming home anymore, that she took me
by the chin and she had me look up in
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her eyes and she said to me, shadow,
she's like, you get an education and
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you never depend on a man for anything.
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That's because the position that my
dad put her in was not a good one,
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and that's because he was a doctor.
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She wasn't an FYI.
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For those that think that you, you're
a doctor's kid, so you grow up for
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little to have some great life.
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I can tell you that it was a
hundred percent not accurate.
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In my case, it was quite the contrary.
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So my mom told me that and I really
took it to heart, and so been
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pretty independent minded and.
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Driven as long as I can remember.
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I remember going back and forth
between my dad's house, my mom's house.
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I remember hating it.
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I remember coming home and my dad's
house smelled so bad because he
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had over 200 birds in his house and
y'all, I'm not talking like canaries.
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Okay?
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I am talking like full blown
like mullekin, Scarlets blue
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and grays, African grays.
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I mean every kind of bird.
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That was possible.
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My father had.
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And so my mom would make my brother
and I trip down to our underwear
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since we got home on Sundays and go
shower because we smelled so bad.
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I say that because I saw and lived how
horrible divorce done wrong can be, and
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it wasn't done wrong because of my mom.
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It was truly done wrong because I
don't think my dad really gave a
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shit, for lack of a better word,
of the effect on the children.
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I think he really believed that.
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You all are kids and
deal with it, suck it up.
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And that really was kinda his attitude.
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And so I remember when I was about eight
or nine years old, he told me that if I
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ever became a lawyer, he would disown me.
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And I was like, done.
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And so really, I don't think
I've ever deviated from that
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point forward of wanting to be
anything else other than a lawyer.
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And so I went to undergrad but got my
degree in finance because I didn't wanna
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be unemployed with a history major.
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Mm-hmm.
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In case law school didn't work out.
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Speaker: Right.
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And
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Speaker 2: then I still went to law school
and then graduated from law school at 25.
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The traditional, like big law firm
route because I think that's what I'd
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always imagined I would do is go work
in Dallas or Houston for a big law firm.
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I worked for the big law firm for a
while out in West Texas and realized how
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miserable I was, but I wanted to be in a
courtroom doing my passion, which at the
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time was criminal defense and family law.
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I did my first contested custody case in
law school, my third year of law school.
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At the time I had met my, at
the time husband were now since
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divorced, but he had two little
girls and he had been a prosecutor
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for 10 plus years at that point.
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His girls were three and five, and
I remember I wasn't gonna make two
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little girls lose their dad because
I knew how much I wanted a dad in
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my life and my dad just wasn't.
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And so I made the commitment to stay
there until they graduated high school.
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The youngest graduated in 2015.
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And so in 2016 I left Boob Central Texas.
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I left a full-time judgeship.
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I was an associate judge in
family law in West Texas, and
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I've done it for about five years.
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But from practicing law now for
23, I came back to Central Texas
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where I went to undergrad and really
started over again with a practice
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and was able, fortunately, to make
something of myself pretty quickly.
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And I was able to gain a
judgeship back here within three
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years of me moving here, right?
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For one of the smaller municipalities
that are outside of Austin.
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And so that's kind of where I sit today.
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I am divorced.
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I've got three boys.
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I've got my dog and two cats, and
my boys are 21 and he's a paramedic.
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The 19-year-old is still
in college, thank goodness.
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And then the 9-year-old is
nine, so he's still perfect.
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'cause the hormones haven't hit yet.
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I figured I got two more years
left before he turns into a teenage
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boy, which for about zero fun.
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Yeah, boys are, but that's my story.
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I mean, I've been the stepmom.
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I do divorce law.
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I've been the kid of divorce.
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I've sat on the bench seeing divorces
from the judge perspective I.
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I'm back in private practice and
now I'm divorced and navigating how
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divorce works, uh, from my perspective.
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And so I really have seen all sides of it.
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And so I don't know if that's a good
thing, bad thing or indifferent,
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but it gives me, um, I think a
pretty unique perspective that
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I carry into my practice today.
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Speaker: Yeah.
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I read up on you.
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I stalked you a little bit,
but I didn't know all of this.
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I didn't know all these details.
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And Michelle, I can't
imagine if I were in Texas.
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I can't imagine anyone that I would
have different than you to represent me.
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Okay?
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Because you have seen it from
all sides, and I feel so proud
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of how you took something in
your life that was kind of hard.
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You know, you went through hard
things as a kid, and look at how it
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has led your whole life and think
of all the lives you have touched.
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Made better because of that.
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And so I'm just like, you
are my kind of people.
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I love that and I'm so thankful.
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So thankful that you're here sharing
this story and okay, Michelle, now
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we've heard your amazing story and I
wanna pick your brain a little bit.
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I wanna pick your brain because I've
got white hair about gray divorce.
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What is going on and why is sun happening?
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Did I just make you spit out your coffee?
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Speaker 2: I laugh because I, I did, I
spoke about in gray divorce a fair amount
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the last couple weeks, Uhhuh, and you
have, by the way, stunning gray hair.
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Well, thank you.
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If my hair looked like that, I may
let mine come in, but it doesn't.
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So I'm looking at my roots on the camera.
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I'm like, oh God, I need
to see my hairdresser.
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Speaker: Um, it's a little bit easier.
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I'll dye my hair
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Speaker 2: until I'm 80.
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Speaker: Thought that and then I just
got so sick of it, so I don't know.
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Whi I just quit.
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Well, it looks great.
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Looks fabulous.
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Looks fabulous.
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I appreciate that so much.
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What a great
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Speaker 2: segue.
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Well, no, and then I, it goes back to
like the guf, that's like the grandma
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I'd like to, is one of the record jokes.
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Now I'm like, yeah, I think you hit that.
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I think you hit that category.
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Speaker: I needed to
hear that today, honey.
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So let's talk about, do you
have a lot of gray people that
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you're doing divorces for?
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What is going on?
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So, I think gray divorce,
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Speaker 2: and I hate
that term by the way.
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I know I kinda do too.
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I call it a mature divorce, is
kind of what I'm calling it now.
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That's really people over, I'd say
late forties, early fifties and up.
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I think that's, and it's really
probably more fifties and up, but
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it's also longer term marriages.
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So it's really, for me,
it's a mature divorce.
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It's people that are in, it's
the people that you wouldn't
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think are getting divorced.
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They've already been so long
together, so long it's well,
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why not stick it out to the end?
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And I think that's the problem.
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You get one of 'em that's
like, ah, the kids are gone.
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The kids at a home empty nester syndrome.
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And you look at the person that's
next to you and think, Nope.
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I'm not doing this.
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I think what they're saying right
now is divorce rates actually down.
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00:11:20,730 --> 00:11:23,310
I find that surprising just based on
how busy I am, because there was a
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huge increase in divorce during covid.
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00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:30,090
Then shortly post after major Covid,
the divorce rates skyrocketed because
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00:11:30,780 --> 00:11:33,300
you got a good taste of what it
was like to be retired because you
224
00:11:33,300 --> 00:11:36,120
had that person in your house all
day long and there were no breaks.
225
00:11:36,300 --> 00:11:38,010
So alcoholism rates went up.
226
00:11:38,430 --> 00:11:40,470
I think drug addiction
went up during covid.
227
00:11:40,830 --> 00:11:42,330
I think affairs went down.
228
00:11:42,735 --> 00:11:47,625
Because of my mom was fucking home,
and I actually have a theory on that.
229
00:11:47,625 --> 00:11:53,355
I think that because affairs went
down, divorces went up because people
230
00:11:53,355 --> 00:11:56,655
couldn't get their quick happy fix.
231
00:11:57,135 --> 00:12:01,185
And so instead they were just home
miserable and so hell and got divorced.
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Great.
233
00:12:01,905 --> 00:12:06,165
Divorce is increasing and I think
it's because people are looking
234
00:12:06,225 --> 00:12:10,245
at who they're with and thinking,
I don't wanna do this anymore.
235
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And.
236
00:12:11,835 --> 00:12:14,925
I don't know why people have
gotten to that point, but I
237
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think that's happening a lot.
238
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The kids are leaving home and
they're just get, they're just tired.
239
00:12:21,165 --> 00:12:24,285
And I understand the being tired,
like looking at the person next
240
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to you, because think about this.
241
00:12:26,415 --> 00:12:27,885
You are in your twenties, right?
242
00:12:28,515 --> 00:12:30,645
And you're in your fifties
now and you've raised kids.
243
00:12:30,675 --> 00:12:32,055
You've done all those things together.
244
00:12:32,865 --> 00:12:37,515
You either grow together or you grow
apart because no one is the same at.
245
00:12:38,130 --> 00:12:41,369
50 that they were at 25,
and thank God for that.
246
00:12:41,699 --> 00:12:44,910
But people change and you either do,
you grow together, you grow apart.
247
00:12:44,910 --> 00:12:48,780
And I think the people that are
growing apart are just deciding
248
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whether it's one or both.
249
00:12:50,459 --> 00:12:51,390
I don't wanna do this anymore.
250
00:12:51,989 --> 00:12:55,410
And the problem with the gray
divorce is to figure out assets
251
00:12:55,410 --> 00:12:58,979
because it's harder, especially if
you've been a stay at home parent.
252
00:12:58,979 --> 00:12:59,069
Mm-hmm.
253
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To start over.
254
00:13:00,239 --> 00:13:03,515
Especially when your life plan was
to grow old with this person and
255
00:13:03,515 --> 00:13:04,709
you were the homemaker forever.
256
00:13:04,709 --> 00:13:06,239
And he was the moneymaker forever.
257
00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:09,660
That's how you were supposed to set
sunset into retirement and you get
258
00:13:09,660 --> 00:13:12,660
divorced because he's now someone else.
259
00:13:13,140 --> 00:13:14,220
And then you're like, well, now what?
260
00:13:14,250 --> 00:13:16,830
Because you've not developed any skills.
261
00:13:16,830 --> 00:13:20,430
You've not, I mean, it can be
problematic for the great divorce.
262
00:13:20,580 --> 00:13:21,510
Speaker: It really can be.
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00:13:21,510 --> 00:13:26,400
And how do you, I mean, and I know every
state is different, but for those, I mean,
264
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:31,110
I'm sorry, but when you just said, I just
thought of the woman who maybe didn't want
265
00:13:31,110 --> 00:13:35,880
the divorce, who worked her little tushy
off taking care of everything at home.
266
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:41,220
Hubby leaves, she's ma
what if she's like 65?
267
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:41,700
Right?
268
00:13:42,450 --> 00:13:45,150
He leaves, what happens?
269
00:13:45,150 --> 00:13:46,350
What kind of income does she get?
270
00:13:46,350 --> 00:13:49,350
Now, maybe they had, at least
she gets half the assets, right?
271
00:13:49,350 --> 00:13:50,430
So at least she has Correct.
272
00:13:51,090 --> 00:13:55,260
But what kind of, what kind of
income is she gonna look at getting?
273
00:13:55,260 --> 00:13:55,530
I mean,
274
00:13:57,900 --> 00:13:58,860
Speaker 2: that's the problem.
275
00:13:58,860 --> 00:14:01,560
And so I can tell you that in Texas,
I can't tell that in other states.
276
00:14:02,115 --> 00:14:05,235
Texas is an antimony state in Texas.
277
00:14:05,235 --> 00:14:10,215
We call it spousal maintenance, and it,
Texas is not a state to get divorced
278
00:14:10,215 --> 00:14:12,615
in if you are a stay at out wife.
279
00:14:13,815 --> 00:14:19,275
Bottom line, a three day final
trial on a 24 year marriage.
280
00:14:19,275 --> 00:14:23,775
They were both early fifties, both
really nice people, but probably
281
00:14:23,775 --> 00:14:27,045
she'd ended their marriage seven,
eight years before the court awarded
282
00:14:27,045 --> 00:14:30,015
her alimony for a year only I.
283
00:14:30,390 --> 00:14:34,530
At $1,500 a month because in Texas,
not only is there a presumption
284
00:14:34,530 --> 00:14:38,730
against it, the court is required to
order alimony, spousal maintenance
285
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,560
for the shortest duration and for
the minimum amount necessary to get
286
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,610
them to the, so they can make meet
their basic minimum reasonable needs.
287
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,040
So it's a low standard.
288
00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,730
I try to, another case before covid,
same thing, long-term marriage.
289
00:14:53,730 --> 00:14:55,560
He was a divorce, he was a
criminal defense attorney.
290
00:14:55,950 --> 00:14:56,820
I represented him.
291
00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:58,710
She didn't even speak much English.
292
00:14:59,130 --> 00:15:02,250
They'd been married for over
20 years and the court gave her
293
00:15:02,250 --> 00:15:03,959
1500 a month for three years.
294
00:15:04,380 --> 00:15:04,829
That was it.
295
00:15:05,910 --> 00:15:10,890
And so, yeah, so I always tell clients
in that position, and sometimes it can
296
00:15:10,890 --> 00:15:14,040
be the men, the men, men that don't
work in the knife works, but most
297
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:15,479
often it's a women in that position.
298
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:20,160
And I quite often tell them, because
they come in so I wanna get divorced.
299
00:15:20,219 --> 00:15:21,420
I said, okay, what's plan B?
300
00:15:22,079 --> 00:15:24,870
They don't have a plan B of like
how you're gonna support yourself.
301
00:15:25,515 --> 00:15:28,635
So I send them away and I tell
'em, real honestly, I'm like, you
302
00:15:28,635 --> 00:15:29,985
are not ready to get divorced.
303
00:15:30,495 --> 00:15:32,084
I said, you need to figure out plan B.
304
00:15:32,535 --> 00:15:35,985
You need to, you know, figure out
how to establish yourself and earn
305
00:15:35,985 --> 00:15:39,615
some income before you do anything
else with regards to filing.
306
00:15:40,035 --> 00:15:42,944
But then on the converse, what happens
is you get the men that go fi file
307
00:15:42,944 --> 00:15:44,579
for divorce and they have no choice.
308
00:15:45,010 --> 00:15:45,300
Yeah.
309
00:15:45,405 --> 00:15:46,875
But be involved in the process.
310
00:15:47,370 --> 00:15:48,785
You can't force someone
to stay married to you.
311
00:15:48,785 --> 00:15:49,025
Mm-hmm.
312
00:15:49,105 --> 00:15:53,305
So it, it is, at least in Texas, it can
be extremely problematic and that, that,
313
00:15:53,305 --> 00:15:55,050
that sounds problematic is more difficult.
314
00:15:55,350 --> 00:15:55,980
Oh, it is.
315
00:15:56,370 --> 00:15:59,430
And that's where you get some of the
extreme bitterness and some of the
316
00:15:59,430 --> 00:16:04,230
extreme kids taking sides, adult kids
taking sides for exactly that reason
317
00:16:04,230 --> 00:16:08,190
because one person is inevitably getting
screwed if they have to go to court.
318
00:16:08,610 --> 00:16:11,520
Lots of those cases will settle
for much more reasonable terms,
319
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,270
but if you go to court that it's,
it, it can be very problematic.
320
00:16:15,630 --> 00:16:17,520
For the non wage earning spouse.
321
00:16:18,750 --> 00:16:21,359
Speaker: That doesn't sound
very nice at all, Michelle.
322
00:16:21,365 --> 00:16:23,280
It's not, and it's not
like that in Minnesota.
323
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,780
And when I work was, I knew
I heard the northern accent.
324
00:16:27,810 --> 00:16:27,930
I
325
00:16:27,930 --> 00:16:28,770
Speaker 2: knew, I heard.
326
00:16:30,209 --> 00:16:31,260
Should you hear that?
327
00:16:31,469 --> 00:16:31,800
No.
328
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:32,010
No.
329
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:33,390
I'm originally from Winnipeg.
330
00:16:34,170 --> 00:16:35,130
Oh boy.
331
00:16:35,790 --> 00:16:36,240
Right.
332
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,449
So I heard it and it's various
flights, but I heard, I was like,
333
00:16:40,229 --> 00:16:41,819
she sounds like a Northerner.
334
00:16:41,819 --> 00:16:43,380
I'm like, but I didn't say anything else.
335
00:16:43,380 --> 00:16:45,120
Just keep my, but yeah, I knew it.
336
00:16:45,945 --> 00:16:46,995
Speaker: Yes, ma'am.
337
00:16:47,415 --> 00:16:50,805
It's very different and especially when
I work with someone on a mediation.
338
00:16:50,805 --> 00:16:53,715
We work together and we try to
figure out, what do you need?
339
00:16:53,715 --> 00:16:54,555
What do you have?
340
00:16:54,615 --> 00:16:55,995
I love that so much better.
341
00:16:55,995 --> 00:16:59,985
And in Texas, if I were that
woman, I would hire you to help me
342
00:16:59,985 --> 00:17:01,185
so that you could figure it out.
343
00:17:01,185 --> 00:17:06,435
My main thing, and I just did a podcast
on this, is to, when you are starting out
344
00:17:06,435 --> 00:17:09,675
this divorce process, educate yourself.
345
00:17:09,974 --> 00:17:15,045
If you can hire a team and get attorneys
and coaches and therapists and whatever.
346
00:17:15,435 --> 00:17:18,795
If you can't research it because
you have to have an understanding.
347
00:17:19,095 --> 00:17:22,575
And Michelle, the thing that's so hard
is a lot of these women are so tired
348
00:17:22,575 --> 00:17:23,865
they don't even wanna deal with it.
349
00:17:24,135 --> 00:17:27,915
And I've had good friends that
have lost out on a lot because
350
00:17:27,915 --> 00:17:29,535
they just are like, I am done.
351
00:17:29,535 --> 00:17:31,665
I don't wanna deal with this anymore.
352
00:17:31,665 --> 00:17:37,125
And I just say, had that
endurance to study to know it
353
00:17:37,125 --> 00:17:38,715
and to make it till the end.
354
00:17:38,805 --> 00:17:40,065
Hopefully you can work together.
355
00:17:40,125 --> 00:17:41,175
It really is the best way.
356
00:17:41,175 --> 00:17:42,135
I unfortunately
357
00:17:42,285 --> 00:17:42,645
Speaker 2: don't.
358
00:17:43,004 --> 00:17:44,745
Get hired on those types of cases.
359
00:17:44,745 --> 00:17:47,415
I, I'm in court more than
I wanna be, quite frankly.
360
00:17:47,955 --> 00:17:49,725
And the judges, you always
wonder like, why are you here?
361
00:17:49,725 --> 00:17:52,125
I'm like, I don't, I don't wanna be
here, judge, but I don't have a choice.
362
00:17:52,274 --> 00:17:54,105
People, you try to settle but can't.
363
00:17:54,764 --> 00:17:55,125
Speaker: Right.
364
00:17:55,875 --> 00:17:56,925
Speaker 2: But yeah, to working together.
365
00:17:56,925 --> 00:18:00,435
We have collaborative law in Texas and
that's more of a working together like
366
00:18:00,435 --> 00:18:02,919
collaboration and for great divorces.
367
00:18:02,925 --> 00:18:05,294
I think that's such a better option.
368
00:18:05,294 --> 00:18:08,294
But the other problem is, is you've
got a stay at home spouse, and
369
00:18:08,294 --> 00:18:11,504
let's say the wage earning spouse
is the one that files for divorce.
370
00:18:11,939 --> 00:18:15,120
Then you've got such
bitterness on the other side.
371
00:18:15,540 --> 00:18:15,629
Mm-hmm.
372
00:18:15,870 --> 00:18:20,909
That bitterness really gets in the
way of thinking clearly and thinking
373
00:18:20,909 --> 00:18:25,020
strategically and thinking in a business
mindset when you're doing the divorce.
374
00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:28,409
Because in that particular scenario, you
have to put your business hat on 'cause
375
00:18:28,409 --> 00:18:30,210
it's a business transaction at that point.
376
00:18:30,659 --> 00:18:33,840
And when you've got that bitterness
because you were sidelined by
377
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:35,100
it, I mean it's just, yeah.
378
00:18:35,639 --> 00:18:36,210
The bitterness.
379
00:18:37,575 --> 00:18:40,275
Speaker: And that's so interesting
that you bring that up because I am
380
00:18:40,275 --> 00:18:45,555
such a proponent, I'm, I'm trained as
a coach too, to get that mindset right.
381
00:18:45,645 --> 00:18:50,355
If you are thinking about getting
divorced, dig in and work on yourself
382
00:18:51,105 --> 00:18:57,255
and maybe spend three months and take
one last judge effort into that marriage
383
00:18:57,675 --> 00:19:00,195
because you are going to be better.
384
00:19:00,765 --> 00:19:03,855
You're gonna be able to communicate
better if you can get your
385
00:19:03,855 --> 00:19:06,705
mind right and prepare for it.
386
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,990
It's going to spring you
into a better life, right?
387
00:19:10,140 --> 00:19:10,230
Mm-hmm.
388
00:19:10,590 --> 00:19:14,280
Even if you're that woman who's
terrified in Texas, there's gonna be
389
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,810
all kinds of blessings that are gonna
come if you can work on yourself,
390
00:19:18,810 --> 00:19:20,820
and that's kinda self-care in a way.
391
00:19:20,820 --> 00:19:24,750
Like get your mind right, get your
mind right, believe in yourself,
392
00:19:24,900 --> 00:19:29,490
so that when you do make the
decision to either stay married,
393
00:19:29,490 --> 00:19:32,640
you know how to set up boundaries,
you know how to be treated well.
394
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:36,629
Or if it gets to the point where you
have to get divorced, the divorce goes
395
00:19:36,629 --> 00:19:39,780
better because you are in a better space.
396
00:19:39,780 --> 00:19:43,440
And sometimes it's hard, even in
a mediation when people wanna work
397
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,360
together, where you gotta go, okay,
let's take a deep breath, throw
398
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:50,970
one in their corners and breathe.
399
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:52,230
Exactly.
400
00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:52,860
Exactly.
401
00:19:52,985 --> 00:19:55,379
Okay, so Michelle, I forgot to
mention this at the beginning,
402
00:19:55,379 --> 00:20:00,420
but you, I feel like I don't
know a lot about domestic abuse.
403
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:07,320
And I wanna talk about abuse
a little bit simply because I
404
00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:09,330
always want us to be aware of it.
405
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:15,000
I want us to be able to maybe pick
up on it, you know, like me as a
406
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,670
mediator when I'm doing a consult.
407
00:20:17,670 --> 00:20:23,190
Sometimes I can miss it, but then as I
start working with a couple, then I might
408
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:25,350
be able to see it a little bit better.
409
00:20:25,995 --> 00:20:29,534
But tell me a little bit, you've
done a lot of work in this area.
410
00:20:29,594 --> 00:20:32,985
Can you talk about this just
a little bit at Toward for the
411
00:20:32,985 --> 00:20:35,324
end of this podcast episode?
412
00:20:36,104 --> 00:20:36,645
Speaker 2: Sure.
413
00:20:37,635 --> 00:20:41,594
You know, unless a client's gonna
come out outright and tell you,
414
00:20:41,625 --> 00:20:44,475
you know, he's beaten me or she's
beaten me, domestic violence happens
415
00:20:44,475 --> 00:20:45,584
on both sides of the spectrum.
416
00:20:45,584 --> 00:20:49,905
It is not just predominantly women
getting abused, men get abused as well.
417
00:20:49,905 --> 00:20:53,205
I think men have a much harder
time admitting to being abused.
418
00:20:53,550 --> 00:20:57,420
Because of the masculinity that
comes along with, you know, how can
419
00:20:57,420 --> 00:20:59,879
you actually admit that you're five
two white beats the crap at you?
420
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:00,450
Speaker: Right?
421
00:21:00,750 --> 00:21:04,139
Speaker 2: But domestic violence, if
someone's not really forthcoming on
422
00:21:04,139 --> 00:21:09,000
it, can be very subtle and you will
get some people that don't want to talk
423
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,160
about it because it's embarrassing.
424
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,950
It's how to let it go on,
especially on the gray divorces.
425
00:21:14,430 --> 00:21:19,920
How do I let him, because abuse is not
just physical abuse is emotional as well.
426
00:21:20,490 --> 00:21:22,379
So you look for signs.
427
00:21:23,190 --> 00:21:26,100
One of the signs that I predominantly
look for, it's usually one of
428
00:21:26,100 --> 00:21:30,870
the biggest red flags, is control
who's controlling everything.
429
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:37,440
That's the bank accounts, that is the
credit cards, whose name is in, whose
430
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,600
name is on all the assets versus not.
431
00:21:40,170 --> 00:21:44,880
But you look for patterns of
control because that is one of
432
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,860
the telltale signs, for example.
433
00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:52,830
If the parties separate and the
husband cuts off all access to
434
00:21:52,830 --> 00:21:55,649
all funds, pretty good indication.
435
00:21:55,649 --> 00:21:58,679
He was abusive of them some way or
form, especially if they cut off
436
00:21:58,679 --> 00:22:00,330
the debit card, the credit card.
437
00:22:00,330 --> 00:22:03,360
I mean, and I've seen cases
where they cut off all financial
438
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:06,389
support and that person's gotten
nothing and no access to anything.
439
00:22:06,389 --> 00:22:11,100
Those are, I mean, that to me
is a pretty good indication that
440
00:22:11,189 --> 00:22:14,159
there is, it may not be physical
abuse, but there's some kind of.
441
00:22:14,820 --> 00:22:16,170
Emotional abuse going on.
442
00:22:16,260 --> 00:22:17,370
Isolation's.
443
00:22:17,370 --> 00:22:23,190
Another one, if the person is isolated
from friends, family doesn't have a
444
00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:26,850
support system in the area in which
they live, unless they're brand new
445
00:22:26,850 --> 00:22:30,840
transplants, that area, someone's
gonna have some kind of network.
446
00:22:31,260 --> 00:22:36,360
And so if they're isolated and don't have
much of a network, that's a clue as well.
447
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,590
Words they say also can be clues of.
448
00:22:41,565 --> 00:22:42,375
Well, I don't know.
449
00:22:42,375 --> 00:22:43,935
He is never let me have access to it.
450
00:22:43,995 --> 00:22:45,885
Like the finances are
always the big control.
451
00:22:45,885 --> 00:22:50,295
If you don't know what you have in a
marital state, then the other spouse
452
00:22:50,295 --> 00:22:51,945
is controlling and that is a red flag.
453
00:22:52,725 --> 00:22:59,085
And so a lot of times your advice to
your clients needs to be, if there's
454
00:22:59,085 --> 00:23:02,685
no domestic violence, I would tell
you to do this It for any reason
455
00:23:02,685 --> 00:23:06,195
that you think you're in danger,
then my advice changes substantially.
456
00:23:06,195 --> 00:23:07,755
And we need to ensure that you're safe.
457
00:23:08,399 --> 00:23:15,690
So it's a fine line because some won't
want to admit it unless you, and it's
458
00:23:15,690 --> 00:23:17,040
usually what I was like, are you sure?
459
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,090
There's nothing else you wanna tell me.
460
00:23:18,510 --> 00:23:22,320
I was like, because I'm seeing some red
flags and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm seeing
461
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,040
some red flags and that's usually when
they'll break down and you can see it.
462
00:23:26,909 --> 00:23:33,180
Speaker: And do you ever think though,
that sometimes I feel like I've seen
463
00:23:33,180 --> 00:23:35,310
where the woman doesn't even see it.
464
00:23:36,105 --> 00:23:38,415
She wouldn't even know to call it that.
465
00:23:39,315 --> 00:23:39,795
Correct.
466
00:23:40,935 --> 00:23:48,254
And that's, that is absolutely, so I guess
bringing that, even just talking about
467
00:23:48,254 --> 00:23:54,945
this, if you are in a relationship where
you don't know what's going on, you have
468
00:23:54,945 --> 00:24:02,080
no idea where you are, you sit financially
if you, that's abuse, financial abuse.
469
00:24:02,805 --> 00:24:05,325
Now, that doesn't mean you gotta
go freak out and get divorced.
470
00:24:05,325 --> 00:24:08,955
It means you've gotta go talk to your
husband about it and say, you know what?
471
00:24:10,155 --> 00:24:11,070
I need to know about it.
472
00:24:11,070 --> 00:24:11,391
I, I know what,
473
00:24:11,865 --> 00:24:12,315
Speaker 2: right?
474
00:24:12,315 --> 00:24:12,435
Yeah.
475
00:24:12,495 --> 00:24:13,515
Like information.
476
00:24:13,515 --> 00:24:17,385
If you are being cut off from
the information in your marriage
477
00:24:18,045 --> 00:24:22,875
that relates to your financial
wellbeing, that's a red flag.
478
00:24:23,025 --> 00:24:27,285
When I say talking about getting educated
and knowledge is really power, I hate the
479
00:24:27,285 --> 00:24:31,335
term narcissistic abuse because I think
narcissism is such an overused term.
480
00:24:31,950 --> 00:24:34,530
I think there are lots of people
that have, almost everyone has a
481
00:24:34,530 --> 00:24:38,220
narcissistic trait, whether they
actually are a narcissist, which is an
482
00:24:38,220 --> 00:24:43,110
entirely different con uh, different
conversation, but there are flags.
483
00:24:43,140 --> 00:24:44,100
That's a red flag, y'all.
484
00:24:44,100 --> 00:24:45,180
That's control.
485
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:48,120
And control can be a form of abuse.
486
00:24:48,150 --> 00:24:51,335
There may be a perfectly reasonable
reason for it, but unless you know
487
00:24:51,335 --> 00:24:54,090
what that reason is, and I always,
that's always the way it's been.
488
00:24:55,110 --> 00:24:57,540
Well, that may mean that you've
always been abused financially
489
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,520
for 25 years or 30 years.
490
00:24:59,955 --> 00:25:04,005
But it's amazing how often you'll
get people that come in that have
491
00:25:04,005 --> 00:25:05,475
no idea what their finances are.
492
00:25:05,805 --> 00:25:06,975
Well, he's always controlled it
493
00:25:07,695 --> 00:25:08,205
Speaker: there.
494
00:25:09,255 --> 00:25:15,495
That is the case way more often than not,
and sometimes they're both like deer in
495
00:25:15,495 --> 00:25:18,135
headlights where they don't even know
what they're spending, and it's like
496
00:25:18,255 --> 00:25:19,845
know what you're spending every month.
497
00:25:20,205 --> 00:25:22,095
If you're gonna be going
through a divorce, well, yeah.
498
00:25:22,125 --> 00:25:23,805
'cause you're only forced
to face it at some point.
499
00:25:24,285 --> 00:25:26,205
Yeah, you've gotta figure it out.
500
00:25:26,264 --> 00:25:29,145
You're gonna feel better
once you actually see it.
501
00:25:29,415 --> 00:25:32,055
So you can start to able with a
plan, but you can change that.
502
00:25:32,805 --> 00:25:32,865
Speaker 2: Yeah.
503
00:25:33,465 --> 00:25:39,435
And remember y'all, your Amazon purchase
history is discoverable in divorce cases.
504
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:40,890
Oh, it was scary.
505
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,150
Although I think my husband
506
00:25:42,150 --> 00:25:44,220
Speaker: sees all those
and I think we're stuck.
507
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,940
I think we're gonna hang in there for
this, but it's not that I haven't had
508
00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:50,280
a near divorce experience in my life.
509
00:25:50,310 --> 00:25:55,890
There have been things that have happened,
and it's not that we haven't grown and we
510
00:25:55,890 --> 00:26:00,810
have changed and it's, I think it's been
a little painful for him sometimes when I
511
00:26:00,810 --> 00:26:04,680
like ebb and flow and have a one boundary.
512
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,970
For the first 20 years, and then I go,
Nope, that's not my boundary anymore.
513
00:26:08,970 --> 00:26:11,820
This is trust pivot.
514
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:12,870
Yes.
515
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:14,670
It's like, sorry, gotta
516
00:26:14,670 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: pivot.
517
00:26:15,450 --> 00:26:16,380
Speaker: Yes, yes, yes.
518
00:26:16,380 --> 00:26:17,460
Well, I have to pivot
519
00:26:17,460 --> 00:26:17,940
Speaker 2: too.
520
00:26:18,780 --> 00:26:19,260
Speaker: Yes.
521
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:25,410
Well, and it's not even, it's more
of a pivot because I'm learning too.
522
00:26:26,130 --> 00:26:30,900
Love myself more and to value how I feel.
523
00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:33,930
Where I think before if someone
told me how I felt was stupid,
524
00:26:33,930 --> 00:26:35,820
well I just believed it, you know?
525
00:26:35,820 --> 00:26:35,910
Right.
526
00:26:35,910 --> 00:26:38,190
And it's like, no, how
I feel is how I feel.
527
00:26:38,190 --> 00:26:39,600
What I need is what I need.
528
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:45,030
And so it just, you change, and
it's a beautiful thing when you can
529
00:26:45,030 --> 00:26:47,130
work really hard and do it together.
530
00:26:47,130 --> 00:26:51,450
So I do always recommend that
for people, put in one last ditch
531
00:26:51,450 --> 00:26:52,920
effort so you don't have to go.
532
00:26:53,250 --> 00:26:57,600
And question if you did the right thing,
or you know, if it could have worked out.
533
00:26:57,660 --> 00:27:01,590
Worked super hard for three months
because like you said, there's so many
534
00:27:01,590 --> 00:27:05,220
people in the gray divorce field who
have been thinking about it for 15, 20
535
00:27:05,220 --> 00:27:07,560
years, and they've never done anything.
536
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,110
Well, maybe if you would've taken
an effort, you either would've had
537
00:27:10,110 --> 00:27:13,470
a way better marriage, or you would
be moving on to a better life.
538
00:27:14,010 --> 00:27:16,770
Speaker 2: I felt like clients, I
said pick a date 60 days from now,
539
00:27:16,770 --> 00:27:18,690
90 days from now, 180 days from now.
540
00:27:18,690 --> 00:27:21,000
I don't care what the
date is, but pick a date.
541
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,990
And pick what you want to
have changed by that date.
542
00:27:25,470 --> 00:27:27,720
And if it hasn't, then, you know, right.
543
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,510
Put all your effort into
it up until that date.
544
00:27:31,889 --> 00:27:34,050
'cause otherwise just keep
picking the ball down the road.
545
00:27:34,620 --> 00:27:34,860
Speaker: Right.
546
00:27:34,860 --> 00:27:38,370
And that effort is taking care of you too.
547
00:27:38,429 --> 00:27:40,409
And setting up your new boundaries.
548
00:27:40,409 --> 00:27:45,149
And I mean, it's a lifelong journey,
this learning and growing, you
549
00:27:45,149 --> 00:27:47,399
know, so And, and I love that.
550
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:48,360
I love that about life.
551
00:27:48,389 --> 00:27:50,850
And Michelle, I have taken
up so much of your time.
552
00:27:51,675 --> 00:27:52,845
This was such a treat.
553
00:27:52,905 --> 00:27:55,425
It was so much more fun
than I ever thought.
554
00:27:55,425 --> 00:27:56,625
You're an amazing woman.
555
00:27:56,625 --> 00:27:58,305
I'm so thankful you were on.
556
00:27:58,335 --> 00:28:01,425
You're on both my podcasts doing
Divorce Different and settle up lives,
557
00:28:01,425 --> 00:28:05,535
so, you know, listeners listen to her
on both because they're both telling
558
00:28:05,535 --> 00:28:08,745
a little bit of a different story
and we get to really get to know you.
559
00:28:08,745 --> 00:28:11,475
And I hope that someday, you
know, I have never been to Texas.
560
00:28:11,475 --> 00:28:15,014
I mean, I've driven through a
corner of it on my way to Arizona.
561
00:28:15,435 --> 00:28:19,335
I would love to come and see you sometime
'cause we are like a different, I'm
562
00:28:19,335 --> 00:28:20,865
like, bring me your people in here.
563
00:28:20,865 --> 00:28:21,945
Fighting it out in court.
564
00:28:22,725 --> 00:28:23,055
Speaker 2: Yeah.
565
00:28:23,055 --> 00:28:25,665
I was like, I'm uh,
come down to Austin now.
566
00:28:25,695 --> 00:28:29,955
I would not come from May until September
because it's like the service of the sun.
567
00:28:30,629 --> 00:28:35,340
But late October, early November or
early spring, like right now, it's
568
00:28:35,340 --> 00:28:38,669
beautiful weather and so yeah, and
there's lots of stuff to do, but
569
00:28:38,669 --> 00:28:42,300
you ever, ever make it down here all
together on a tour of the courthouses
570
00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:43,710
that I visit around here that's know,
571
00:28:43,955 --> 00:28:44,490
Speaker: I, I would love that.
572
00:28:44,490 --> 00:28:46,710
And I'll be trying to make
peace everywhere I go.
573
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,470
Speaker 2: Mom brings a piece
down here to my clients.
574
00:28:49,919 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker: Thank you so much for being here.
575
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:52,560
Take.