Shownotes
We continue our conversation about living in light of the cross by moving from accepting each other to forgiving each other. We contrast “Karma Town” (retribution and bitterness) with “Graceland” (a new way of life shaped by grace), noting that Jesus even teaches us to pray, “forgive us as we forgive.”
We reflect on how emotional and relational struggles often come from not fully receiving God’s unconditional grace and not extending it to others, illustrated by a story of a pastor whose unresolved shame poisoned his marriage until he embraced forgiveness.
We explore three steps to living in grace, emphasizing deepening repentance and clarifying that forgiveness doesn’t excuse evil but releases our right to retaliate and entrusts justice to God. We close by inviting reflection and praying the Lord’s Prayer.
00:00 Why Forgiveness Matters
00:27 Preparing Your Heart
01:19 Karma Town vs Graceland
02:39 Bitterness and Retribution
03:59 Grace That Heals
06:09 Story of Hidden Shame
08:28 Three Steps to Forgive
09:36 What Forgiveness Is Not
12:57 Jesus Model on the Cross
14:06 Reflection and Lords Prayer
Transcripts
Welcome back to our podcast.
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:In light of the Cross in the last
episode, we talked about accepting
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:each other in light of the cross.
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:Today we're gonna go a little
further in that, in this
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:idea of forgiving each other.
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:So one of the reasons we have trouble
accepting each other is because that
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:person has done something to us.
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:The New Testament talks a lot about
this idea of forgiving each other,
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:and we're gonna look at a little
bit of what it means to forgive
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:each other because of the cross.
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:So let's just start right now, and I'm
gonna guess that if you are a human
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:and you've lived any time at all on
this earth, you have people who have
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:hurt you, whether by what they've
done or what they have failed to do.
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:So right now, I would
encourage you to ask God.
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:Not to focus on them so much, but maybe
bring to mind any relationship that he
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:would like you to apply these words to.
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:So just put your heart in
a place of preparation.
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:Ask God to reveal that to you right now.
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:As you pray silently.
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:Alright.
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:Nathan, do you remember a few episodes
when we talked about the difference
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:between Karma Town and Graceland?
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:the idea being we're
not just saved by grace.
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:We are saved into grace.
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:It's this whole realm or whole
kingdom or whole new society or
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:way of living, way of acting.
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:It's called Graceland.
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:Nathan Beasley: Yeah, I like that.
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:It's a fundamental.
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:Paradigmatic shift,
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:Daniel Jepsen: right?
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:Nathan Beasley: That we are no
longer living in the realm of,
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:Hey, What goes around comes around.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Yeah.
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:Nathan Beasley: But uh.
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:Thank God has bestowed upon
us grace and forgiveness.
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:And so we extend that to others.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Right?
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:And just like when you emigrate from
one country to another, you have
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:different laws and different customs,
a different way of doing things, right?
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:Nathan Beasley: Mm-hmm.
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:Daniel Jepsen: There are about two dozen
countries, from what I've heard, where
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:polygamy is legal and culturally accepted,
but probably don't try that here.
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:Nathan Beasley: Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Your wife
may not approve of that.
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:And in Graceland the fundamental rule
or law or custom, the way it works
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:when someone hurts you is forgiveness.
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:Nathan Beasley: Yeah, I mean,
we've been praying daily.
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:father forgive.
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:Me as I forgive others.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Exactly.
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:It's embedded right there in the prayer.
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:Jesus taught us to pray.
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:Nathan Beasley: Yeah.
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:Easier said than done.
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:So we wanna spend two days kind of
working through this and unpacking what
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:forgiveness is and, and how to do it
in hopes that, man, there's some stuff
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:that, is really easy to hang onto.
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:I mean, the way that other
people have sinned against us and
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:honestly, the way you've sinned
against others is no trivial thing.
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:Daniel Jepsen: No, that's for sure.
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:Nathan Beasley: And, it's
really easy for it to grow into
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:bitterness or resentfulness.
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:and we can feel so justified in that.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Mm-hmm.
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:Nathan Beasley: But if it's true that
we are saved into grace and there's a
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:gift to being able to let go of that.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Yeah.
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:Nathan Beasley: And so bear with us now.
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:Let's, let's unpack this a little bit.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Like you said, the rule
of the land of karma town, if someone
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:hurt you is get back at them if you can.
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:Nathan Beasley: Mm-hmm.
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:Daniel Jepsen: if nothing else through
this internal bitterness that poisons
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:your relationship, but preferably more
actively, you want to get back at them.
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:Nathan Beasley: Yeah.
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:We want, we want justice.
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:There's a, sense of justice.
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:If they get what they deserve,
then that's a good thing.
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:Either by.
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:Like you said, me in an active way
or the law, or me in an internal way.
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:But the, the justice that we
have grown up in this, culture
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:is, all about retribution.
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:Yes.
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:So it's hard to, it's hard to understand
a different way when that is the,
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:the law of the land that we have.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Yeah.
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:And I like what David Seamans wrote.
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:He was a Christian counselor and a
pastor for many years, and he wrote in
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:his book, healing for Damaged Emotions.
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:many years ago, I was driven to the
conclusion that the two major causes of
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:most emotional problems among evangelical
Christians are these, the failure to
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:understand, receive, and live out God's
unconditional grace and forgiveness.
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:That's the first and second, The failure
to give out that unconditional love,
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:forgiveness, and grace to other people.
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:We read, we hear, we believe
a good theology of grace,
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:but it's not the way we live.
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:The good news of the gospel has not
penetrated to the level of our emotions.
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:Nathan Beasley: Wow.
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:you've been a pastor
for a number of years.
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:Does that quote resonate with you
and your experience with others?
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:Daniel Jepsen: I think it does.
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:I think a lot of what we battle with
is a combination of not feeling the joy
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:of our acceptance before God, because
we haven't fully received that grace.
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:And a lot of what poisons our
relationships with other people is
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:that same failure of giving that
grace to other people like we talked
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:about last time, even just not
accepting them the way that they are.
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:Nathan Beasley: and for clarification,
there's a way in which we objectively
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:receive God's grace for the
forgiveness of our sins when we
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:make a decision to follow him.
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:But the goal is that that truth
penetrates Into our bones.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Yeah.
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:Nathan Beasley: So it's the way
that we interact with the world
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:around us from this place of
deep receiving of God's grace.
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:There's a way that that frees us.
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:So, so there's a way to receive
the grace without really fully
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:receiving and embodying that grace.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Yeah.
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:Nathan Beasley: And so that's,
what we're talking about here.
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:Not that if you've given your life
to the Lord, you are saved, you
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:have received the grace of God.
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:If you're still living from a place
of insecurity, I don't know if God
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:loves me or accepts me or forgives me.
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:Oh, could he have forgiven that too?
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:The answer is yes, and I
think God actually wants you
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:to receive that forgiveness
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:Daniel Jepsen: in that case.
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:Oh, he does.
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:He does.
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:It's what he died for, right?
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:Nathan Beasley: Yeah.
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:Daniel Jepsen: The same counselor in
the same book, a different chapter.
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:I think he tells a story.
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:About a young pastor who was having
great troubles in his marriage.
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:He was domineering, he
wasn't affectionate.
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:Um, his wife just felt
like he didn't care.
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:He was critical, he was
judgemental, he was harsh.
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:so he began counseling this young pastor.
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:And here's the way he found out.
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:This pastor had been, living overseas
in an Asian country, I forget which
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:one it was for, for some years.
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:this was before he met his
wife and he was a young adult.
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:He was lonely.
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:so two or three times he gave into
a temptation to visit a prostitute.
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:He eventually repented of that,
and began growing in Christ.
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:He even went to seminary.
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:He understood God's grace, but he
hid this from the young woman that
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:he began courting and was engaged
to, and then eventually married.
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:It was eating at him.
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:Nathan Beasley: Mm.
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:Daniel Jepsen: He knew God's grace
intellectually, but he could not
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:forgive himself for what he had done.
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:He could not bear to
tell his wife about it.
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:So every time he looked at her who
had kept herself pure for marriage,
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:it made him feel even more tarnished
and unworthy, and he ended up
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:perversely taking it out on her
because he hated that part of himself.
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:Nathan Beasley: Mm-hmm.
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:Daniel Jepsen: And David Seaman's,
um, remark how beautiful it was, went
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:through this course of several sessions.
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:This man fully received God's
forgiveness and grace first
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:from God and then from his wife.
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:Nathan Beasley: Mm-hmm.
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:Daniel Jepsen: and that's the idea
unless we're fully receiving that.
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:In some way we're nursing things
within us that are going to poison
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:our relationships with others.
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:Nathan Beasley: Mm-hmm.
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:Alright.
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:Yeah.
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:The,
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:Daniel Jepsen: maybe I
spent too long on line.
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:Nathan Beasley: No, I
think that's really good.
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:The light of Christ wants to
seep into every dark corner
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:of our hearts and heal it.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Yeah.
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:Nathan Beasley: I mean, that's the gospel.
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:It
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:Daniel Jepsen: is
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:Nathan Beasley: right?
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:That there is, that there is healing and
uh, forgiveness begins with a recognition.
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:Of the brokenness and so, uh, brokenness
of others in the way that impacts us
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:and brokenness of what we do to others.
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:So for him, he needed a, a,
a self forgiveness, receiving
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:that from God before he could,
um, be healed from that fully.
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:So forgiveness is huge.
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:Daniel Jepsen: It is, and that's
really, I think, the first step to
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:understanding how to forgive others.
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:So if we want to step out from.
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:Karma Town, as it were, step into Grace.
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:how do we do that?
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:Well, there three things we can
do to live in Grace Lane fully.
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:And the first is just this
movement of continual and
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:deepening repentance before God.
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:Unless we are growing in a understanding
of how deeply we are forgiven and at
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:what cost, we will not be able to extend
that full forgiveness to other people.
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:You can't give what you don't have.
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:Nathan Beasley: Mm-hmm.
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:Daniel Jepsen: So this idea is
that we have to continually grow in
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:grace in understanding our need for
forgiveness, and we will never run
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:outta things to seek forgiveness for.
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:It's not like when you become
closer to Christ, all of a sudden
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:forgiveness drops out of what you
do in relationship with Christ.
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:It becomes more prominent because the
closer you get to Christ, the more you
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:see the ways that you're not like him.
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:And it doesn't mean that you
think badly about yourself.
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:It just means you think
wonderfully of God and his grace.
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:And when that takes over, then
that begins to pour out towards
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:other people that forgiveness.
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:Now second thing here, then is to
remember what forgiveness actually
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:is, and this is our hangup.
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:You talked about justice before, right?
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:Nathan Beasley: Yeah.
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:Daniel Jepsen: We desire justice rightly.
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:We desire justice rightly.
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:That is a God part of us.
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:The problem is we are not in a position
to bring justice to other people because
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:we're just as guilty as they are.
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:Right?
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:Nathan Beasley: Hmm.
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:Daniel Jepsen: So, whatever judgment,
whatever justice is gonna be in play here
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:for what that other person has done for
us, we are not the ones to bring it about.
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:if anything needs to happen in that
realm, that's God's responsibility.
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:Right.
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:And if God forgives them fully
and lets them off the hook, can we
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:really say No, you did it wrong.
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:Nathan Beasley: Hmm.
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:Daniel Jepsen: When he's
done the same thing for us.
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:Nathan Beasley: Yeah.
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:That's hard.
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:Daniel Jepsen: It is.
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:It is.
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:So it's not about saying
that what they did was right.
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:If they hurt us that they did
something wrong, then it was wrong.
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:And sometimes what they did was.
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:Evil.
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:I mean, there's no other word for
some things that some people do.
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:Yeah.
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:forgiveness or isn't trying to
say what they did was not bad or
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:wasn't that bad, or, you know, other
people have gone through worse.
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:No.
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:If it's a issue of forgiveness, it implies
that they really did do something wrong.
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:So forgiveness isn't excusing, it's
not downplaying what they did wrong.
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:what forgiveness is, is letting
them off the hook from your point
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:of view, and seeking their best for
them in spite of what they've done.
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:Nathan Beasley: Mm,
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:Daniel Jepsen: as one person put
it, it's letting go of my right.
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:Inability to hurt you for hurting me.
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:. Now that's different than emotions,
and we'll talk about that in our next
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:episode a little bit, but I don't know,
do you have any thoughts about that?
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:I feel like I've been
talking too much here.
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:Nathan Beasley: No, you're fine.
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:I think, um, back to the words of
Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount
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:where he says, what you measure out
will be measured unto you as well.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Yeah.
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:Nathan Beasley: And the,
the idea being, if you want.
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:No mercy for the guilty.
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:you are also guilty and may
not receive mercy either,
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:Daniel Jepsen: right?
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:Nathan Beasley: I mean, Jesus
speaks incredibly harshly to
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:those who withhold forgiveness.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:If you don't forgive a brother
or sister, then neither will your
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:father in heaven forgive you.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Those
are hard words of Jesus.
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:Nathan Beasley: So, and, and, and I, I
feel the weight of them right now and.
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:Know if you're listening, my intent and
bringing that up is not condemnation.
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:I feel the weight to that because
my goodness, some have been
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:really brutally harmed by others.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Yeah.
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:Nathan Beasley: And, yet
somehow God is inviting you to
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:release that to him and trust.
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:the justice to God, and in that way,
you can be liberated from having to
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:hang on in your own mind and heart.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Yeah,
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:Nathan Beasley: God is, after
your formation and turning you
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:into a person of love, regardless
of what has happened to you.
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:Uh, he wants to form you into a person of
love, which means growing in this ability
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:to forgive others, receive forgiveness
from him, and extend that to others.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Yeah.
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:That's what the cross is about.
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:It's not just for me, it's for all of us.
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:Nathan Beasley: You know, it's,
it's amazing that Jesus, while
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:he was hanging on the cross.
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:He said, father, forgive them.
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:The people who are hanging him on
the cross, father forgive them for
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:they do not know what they're doing.
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:That's the model.
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:And honestly, that,
that's a difficult model.
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:I don't like that model.
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:Daniel Jepsen: There's part of us that
doesn't, and and to be clear, none
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:of us are gonna get this perfectly.
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:Nathan Beasley: Yeah.
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:Daniel Jepsen: We don't earn God's
forgiveness and mercy because we've
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:been really good at forgiving others.
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:That's not what it's about.
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:But rather, the more we receive this.
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:And embrace it.
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:The more we have to understand that this
is not just for us, it's also something
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:that happens through us towards others.
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:Nathan Beasley: Mm-hmm.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Now we are gonna talk
about though, how can I forgive someone
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:when I can't forget what they've done?
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:Nathan Beasley: Yeah.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Or when my emotions
are so raw and so angry that it
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:doesn't feel like I've forgiven them.
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:Nathan Beasley: Mm-hmm.
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:Daniel Jepsen: Or a third question.
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:can I forgive someone who's
never asked forgiveness?
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:And those are weighty questions and
we want to give enough time to them.
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:So we're gonna talk about
them in our next episode.
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:But I think for now, I would encourage
people to just celebrate how much God has
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:forgiven you and celebrate the fact that
because of that you can forgive others.
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:You can view that as a burden.
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:Yes, I have to forgive others, but it's
more of a privilege and a right, an
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:opportunity to be able to live without
that bitterness that's been poisoning you.
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:Because you can forgive as God.
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:That's forgiving you.
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:That's a freeing and beautiful thing.
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:It's, taking the shackles off.
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:Nathan Beasley: Yeah.
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:Daniel Jepsen: So think about
that for a minute and during our
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:time of reflection application.
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:Celebrate that.
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:Thank God.
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:Ask him if there's some way or
some person that he's already
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:pointing you towards this.
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:If not, great.
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:If so, ask him what it means.
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:Ask him how to do it.
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:And if you've been listening to
our podcast, you know that we
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:always end with the Lord's Prayer.
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:and it's especially insightful
today as we talk about receiving
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:and giving forgiveness because
Jesus taught us to pray.
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:Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
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:Your kingdom come, your will be
done on earth as it is in heaven.
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:Give us today our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts as we
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:also have forgiven our debtors.
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:And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
